‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Check-in. Plus, ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ and ‘Dune: Part Three’ Trailers.

Hello, welcome back to House of R. We are in a post-Project Hail Mary world. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, she's dearer to me than Rocky himself, it is Mallory Rubin. Hey, Mallory, how you doing? Sheesh, what praise. What an honor. Rocky's on my mind still, every minute of every day. I miss him. It's sad not to be able to look forward to seeing Project Hail Mary for the first time, but I'm glad that the entire galaxy universe is celebrating Rocky together. What a wonderful thing. Absolutely. You were very bullish on how this film would do, and you were right. How does it feel to be so right? It just feels great to know that everybody's going to meet Rocky. Exactly. And seeing movies. In the theater. Exactly. If you haven't already, please do check out our conversation with Andy Weir that we had at the end of our Deep Dive last week. I think it was a delightful conversation. Andy is just the best. Today we are doing sort of a grab bag. We've got a Daredevil Born Again check-in. We are catching up with the Doom Part 3 trailer and the Spider-Man trailer, and we will get to all of that right after this. before we get into the sort of grab bag of stuff that we have today just a couple programming reminders i don't want to over promise under deliver but i will say that uh there is a darth mall show happening and that is something we'll be checking in on that's right um the way in which we're checking in on is still a slight question mark, but we're really excited about the Darth Maul animated show that's coming out. So we'll be checking in on that. We've also got another Christopher Nolan movie that we're checking in on. It is approximately a Memento anniversary. That's right. Yeah, we have tattooed somewhere on our body to check in on Memento. One of my favorite Nolan movies. So if you have never seen Memento, do yourself a favor. as we continue to journey toward the Odyssey. And also, despite the fact that the reboot has been canceled, we will be continuing with our Buffy rewatch because Mallory Rubin is nothing if not a completist, and she has watched season four, so we will be doing Buffy season four part one is something we've got on the horizon. Can't wait. And as I mentioned today, Daredevil, Board of Gun check-in, Spidey trailer, Dune 3 trailer, plus a quick book spoiler section for the Dune 3 trailer right at the very end. So if you don't want to know anything about Doom Messiah, you can peace out. We will let you know. But that's why we're arranging it in that order. So the book spoilers at the very end of the podcast, you can check out before we get to that. There's a lot going on both today and in general. We've been hucking folks, keep track of everything. What do you think? Oh, I would just recommend you follow the pod. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify. Incredible stuff. And you can, of course, watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. Follow us on social media because we have new House of R handles on Instagram and TikTok at House of R pod. Thrilling, exciting. We're having fun. Join us. And then, of course, send us your emails. The inbox is always open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Are you looking forward to spending April 6th watching Maul Shadow Lord as I am? on my husband's birthday, let us know. Let us know if you're excited. If you have thoughts on Memento or any other Nolan movie that we haven't gotten to yet, keep the tenant emails coming. We're going to get to it eventually, right? Let us know what you are thinking about Daredevil so far and anything else that's on your mind this spring. Send us your emails. We'd love to hear from the Bad Babies. We haven't gotten a lot of emails, Mallory, just for you about Rocky Merch. So just so you know, the Bad Babies are keeping tabs on all the options for Rocky Merch and they're letting you know. I was relieved after missing the shoulder body to just see that there's a plush. You know, it's exciting. No surprise, but it is a thrill. I enjoyed completing my Lego over the weekend. It's wonderful. It's very satisfying to twirl it and watch the ship move. It's a good treat. And I'm loving my popcorn buckets. I haven't used them for popcorn. I'm just looking at them, and I'm enjoying that. Amazing. Amazing. All right. Anything else you want to mention before we dive into Daredevil Born again? No, I don't think so. Let's do it, man. Back in Hell's Kitchen-ish. Let's suit up and go back to Hell's Kitchen-ish. All right, so Season 2, Episode 1 is what we're checking in on. Even though they're kind of calling it Episode 10 as well, it's a little confusing the way this is a Season 2, but it's all part of this sort of born-again mass entity that they have created. this episode is written by Dario Scatapane, directed by Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson, these are sort of like the main creative folks on this show in general this is an 8 episode weekly drop except for next week which is 2 episodes for some reason, we don't really know why but there you are and then at the end of it all as they've just announced, the Punisher special is coming on May 12th and though I feel like we're a little behind on the Spidey trailer, I'm kind of excited that we're talking about Daredevil into the Spidey trailer today because there's so much Daredevil in the Spidey trailer. I kind of feel like it's all going to be by the MCU design sort of one big thing. We've got Daredevil into Punisher and then Punisher playing such a large role in Spidey plus some other bits and bobs from Daredevil in the Spidey trailer. So we're going to talk about all of that. But it's just like it feels like serendipity that we're talking about all of it. Or, you know, marketing design. You choose. Why not both? But how are you feeling to be back near-ish Hell's Kitchen so soon, Molly Rubin? You know, in general, in terms of having a subsequent season of a show quickly and not having to wait two, two and a half, three years between installments, I think that's great. I mean, it's increasingly rare in the current streaming era to be able to return to a character set and a plot line and storyline with a quickness. So, like, conceptually, that's nice. I think we were obviously, the two of us, this podcast, maybe MCU fans collectively, a little mixed on season one of Daredevil Bored Again after, you know, anticipating it so ferociously that we revisited every cherished moment from the original Netflix series. And so, like, I will say I'm excited to see where the season goes. I am very hopeful because of these ties to the Punisher special and then into Spidey that things will really feel toward the end of the season, like they're humming. I've not watched Beyond this first episode premiere, so I have no idea where the season is going. But the premiere, I thought, was okay and notably not different feeling from season one in the way that I was expecting, based on sort of all of the discussion around the reshaping that had happened with season one and how season two was going to feel like maybe the show that we were supposed to get. That's not my impression one episode in. That said, there are things inside of this episode that excite me. a mention of a Jess. I'm like, okay, Jessica Jones, give it to me now, give it to me when. I don't want to wait. We've seen Foggy in the trailer. Foggy, not here in this first episode, but I have loved whatever flashback or however that's going to be structured. Immediately, I would have. I anticipate that and I look forward to it. We're the leading Daniel Blake and Buck Cashman enthusiasts, so of course it's great to be back with our guys. I was thinking about you a lot with every Daniel Blake scene. I was like, Molly loves this guy. And then, of course, Buck Cashford, my guy. My guy, Daniel Blake, just breaking out the kiss next year could not have been more on brand. I'm like, I saw that drop when it hit. I saw that drop. So, yeah, you know, I'm curious to see how much of the beginning of season two feels like a relic of season one because we are still in the process of kind of recalibrating and resetting and it will actually feel different toward the end of the season. I don't know. You know, we're not going to be covering it weekly as we have some shows, but we will check in, you know, here and there across the season. We'll certainly check in at the end of the season, if not, you know, if not sooner. But yeah, I hope it ends with a bang and sends us into, like, the future of Daredevil with a lot of anticipation. I'm unwilling to promise and under-deliver, so I don't know what we will be doing with Daredevil for the rest of the season. But I will say this. I actually liked the first episode way more than I thought I would, because I was pretty down on the last season. Mixed down is where I would put myself. and then I sort of dragged my heels on checking in on episode one and I talked to a bunch of our pals who had screeners and everyone else seemed pretty down. So I was like, oh, God, I'm just not going to like this. And then I watched it and I was like, you know what? As bad as I thought it was going to be. I actually quite enjoyed a lot of it. And then when I rewatched it, I think I liked it even more. I've only watched this first episode, but on the second time through, I liked it even more. And while I was sort of hoping that some various plot threads that I felt weren't working in the first season would be sort of, you know, snipped out right away at the beginning of the season. That is not the case. And so, but there's a shape of something that I think they're doing a better job. We've got new characters. We've got a ton. Like, there were so many characters in season one. And they're still, like, all here, pretty much. And then we're adding new characters. Like, Matthew Lillard is here. We'll talk about it. You know, like, we're adding new storylines. but there's a way contrary to season one I feel like uh in the inside of this episode I feel like I can see a shape of something that makes it all feel like it's more tightly woven together um you know you know like it when when they say things like the vigilante trials are coming and that's across like three different storylines you know and it's a legal case and that's exciting you know so like there are there are things that make me cautiously optimistic more so than I thought I would be for this season. Not even just the Jessica Jones at all. And perhaps that's because this episode ended with an incredible moment for my guy, Dex, a.k.a. Bullseye. My fave. My hottest fave. And I've been told by people who have seen more of the season that this is like there's some great stuff for Dex this season. So that makes me really excited, too. I mean, look. Everyone can wait around for Jessica Jones. I'm here for the problematic white man who maybe I can fix. So, you know, let's be honest. We can only be ourselves. Ending on Bullseye, you can fix him. And featuring multiple wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson TM sequences. Not only did we get to see Karen Page out in the world in wigs more than once, but we got a, I thought, deeply disturbing, harrowing, nightmare fuel-inducing close-up of the creepy mannequins on which the wigs rested. Well, that was like a classic, a very classic Moorhead and Benson, like, hey, and then we're cut to Kingpin and his bald head. Doesn't it remind you of the bald head we just came from? They love that, like, image-matching shit. But here's my favorite thing about Karen in her new wig-centric life. Yeah. She has decided, and I think rightly so, that it's not enough to slap a wig on it. She needs about, like, 10 pounds of eyeliner to go with it. And that's just really working for me. And I'm excited to talk about Karen and the rest. So let's start with this. Again, this is not a deep dive. We're just going to step through sort of like our light impressions here. So, like, we've got a ton of characters, a ton of storylines, as I mentioned. Let's talk about some older storylines that we're most excited to return to. You've already mentioned your guy, Daniel Blake. Daniel Blake and BB and their whole relationship. I love them. We've got these, like, new pastel color propaganda BB report videos. videos and this sort of anonymous-esque anti-mayor kingpin videos that go with it, right? So the BB report thing is back, which I wasn't sure they would use that device again, but they are doubling down on it. And I was like, okay, that's a choice. But here we are, right? I'm just going to zip through this and let's go back through and talk about what you're most excited about. Matt and Karen's relationship. Here we are. Just like bing, bam, boom. We're into it. You love Karen Page. You're so excited. Jack Duquesne, the sourceman himself. We do love Tony Dalton. And we're so excited. Yes. My beloved Dex out for continually out for revenge against Vanessa. The thinly veiled ice storyline, a.k.a. Powell and the AVTF run amok. Yes. Cherry, private investigator and Vanessa queen pin. I do think it's interesting that when I assembled these storylines, which is not entirely comprehensive, but mostly there isn't like really a king pin story. He's just sort of everywhere. everywhere, which is perhaps by design, but he's just sort of lightly everywhere. So of all these things that I've listed here, what were you, renowned Taryn Page lover, what were you most excited for to be back there? Um, boy, I think I am, let me start with what I'm least excited about. Okay, sorry. That is Heather. I just like. Well, I'm putting her under like new storyline because she's got the PTSD thing, which feels Is it new? Is she slashing back to the muse attacks from season one? I don't know. That's like part of what I was like, man, we're just sort of right back where we were. But fine, I'll maintain some patience and we'll see if it feels fresh. Always happy to be back with Daniel and Buck. I do like the Daniel-Bebe dynamic, and I thought it was interesting to hear Karen push Bebe on, like, what her actual connection to Daniel is in this, like, you know, we're manipulators and the easiest people to manipulate are manipulators conversation, right? So this kind of warning, be careful, but also like, Hey, how do you feel about this person? And okay. You're saying like, no, not like that, but stay frosty. These things can get complicated. Like I am interested in how that dynamic evolves because obviously BB is using Daniel for information. He is clearly head over heels smitten. Like that's undeniable. And will she start to develop more of a deep and abiding fondness for him as the season goes or not? I don't know. He grows on you, Mallory. He grows on you. I mean, the apartment, you know, does anything in Daredevil Born Again have anything even remotely resembling the charm of the original loft? No, still no. You know, even again, going to the season. Aggressively, no. Murdoch and McDuffie law firm and seeing the kind of taunt of the brick and the arch shape of the window really took me back to that season one feeling of missing the loft. I have a note for McDuffie and Associates. If, you know, business isn't so bad that Daya Hockberg can come in and sort of just, like, piss all over you or attempt to, I would recommend downsizing your office suites. If business is tough and you're working on pro bono cases and you're letting your heart be your guide, your virtue be your guide. Yes. You can no longer afford the way to Ally McBeal glass and brick gorgeous suite of offices. That's what I have to say about that. It's a good real estate note, as is always the case in shows set in New York, where there is almost always a real estate note. I liked seeing McDuffie, you know, talk her shit to Hockberg. That was satisfying and fun. You know, on the BB front, I was frankly astonished that the season opened with the BB report because that was one of the things that gave me the clearance, like, oh, maybe this isn't going to be as different right away as we thought it would be kind of feelings. That was, like, a little bit hard, honestly, to shake off even over the course of the rest of the episode. But I'm interested in where that's going and the connection to Ben and the original series and, like, our real emotion, like, deep emotional fondness and connection to those characters and those storylines in that moment in time with Daredevil on TV. I am curious, like, what is your theory for those anonymous Ask Mayor Kingpin videos? Do you think, because I think there are kind of two theories so far, right? It seems like the internet is asking, is this connected to Mr. Charles in some way and whatever is going on with that character? I just assume it's Bebe. I think it's Bebe. Yeah, and especially that person is, like, smaller stature. Yes, whoever's in that suit with the gloves and the mask is, like, a smaller person. It's not Matthew Lillard, I'll tell you that much right now. For sure. I see Maggie Lillard in a scream mask in a row, but I know what his frame looks like when his mask is. Not that. I think also just the sequencing of that starts to the episode where we're like, you know, going from the BB report into this, which mentions and directly alludes to the BB report and this idea of her complicity in this thing. That would be a good way if it is, in fact, BB to like maintain a degree or manufacture a degree of cover and separation. And then we cut right to her. So it felt very intentional to, like, point toward that direction. But also just in the previously on, one of the things that we were reminded of was her saying at the end of last season, not everything I write is under my name, right? So reminding us that she is out there generating commentary in a different form. And so I think that this is Bebe, and I am interested to see where that goes. I am deeply uninterested in Bebe and Daniel Blake in general. Though I will say that, like, the move of I Hired You Cleaners cashed at me at, like, $500. Yeah. Great stuff. Amazing. If you two are trying to, like, court a man-child as a source, I think hiring a cleaner's but then say, fuck you, pay me, is a great move. It's incredible. I have to give it to, like, the vigilante trials, which I did have sort of under new storylines than it is. But I think making Jack Duquesne the, like, you know, the main focus at least so far. I mean, it's a visual anti-trial, so I think he's not going to be obviously the only one. There are a lot of people in cages, right? But, like, him as sort of our central focus here, I think, was really, really smart and made me excited. But, yeah, like, when we, like, when Cherry is important in this episode or McDuffie, I was like, oh, we're still doing Cherry. Oh, we're still doing McDuffie. We're not trimming anyone around the perimeter. We're just keeping everyone sort of in the mix, which is like a, I don't know. It's an interesting sort of like, fuck you, no, we didn't get it totally wrong. We're going to like, we're going to fix it, but we're not going to completely revamp it. Karen, we heard you. Karen Page is here. She's here in earnest. She is the love interest. It is so clear. Yeah. But we're keeping the law firm. We're keeping Cherry. We're keeping Bebe. We're keeping Daniel. We're keeping Buck Cashman. Sheila is still here. Like all of it's still in the mix. To be clear, B.B. and Daniel are not the thing I'm most interested in. I'm just, like, going kind of through that. I hope that that can evolve into something more interesting than it was in season one, if that is in fact her, and we get to kind of see how she's basically seeking to pursue her vengeance for the way that her family was wronged. My answer is also Jack and Dex. Like, I think kind of undeniably those are charismatic figures who we enjoy watching on screen, like kind of at the most basic level. And, you know, to your point about, like, hey, a legal drama in a Daredevil show, like, there's an aspect of that that just feels right. And hearing even some of the things that Matt said across this episode, you know, we're going to get to some of this later about how much of it was connected to maybe his Catholicism and his, like, spiritual outlook on the world. But also, like, in the moments where he said things across this episode about needing to believe in the system, that is a return to an aspect of foggy-driven belief and conviction that Matt has not always been able to maintain a grasp of. And so the vigilante trials as a way to, like, root Matt in a sacred thing to him and to this most precious relationship in his past that is now gone is – The church or the courtroom. Yeah, the church or the courtroom, I think, is, like, a really potentially interesting thing. I mean, again, we'll see how it pays off. But, you know, Matt Murdock currently missing because he's dead, all of this sort of stuff like that. So, like, will he be at all, like, as Matt Murdock lawyer involved in the vigilante trials? I certainly hope so. I'm continually hoping that Daredevil gets Matt Murdock lawyer right. It doesn't always do it, but, like, I want it to get it right. So let's zip through, again, this is a brief check-in. So I'm just going to zip through the news storylines and we can talk about the things that most intrigue us here. So, as you mentioned, Matt and Karen on the run-ish, sort of. Dr. Heather Glenn and her PTSD Karen Page and her many wigs Matthew Lillard CIA and a very present signatory fascinating Albany's interest in Fisk as represented for now by Lieutenant Governor Juan Gomez and Attorney General Steve Rudd the wreck of the Northern Star an underground railroad operating out of the back of the Aegean Gardens and the vigilante trials which we already mentioned I gotta say I love Matthew Lillard and I love late career Matthew Lillard so I just thought he was like from the moment he shows up and like dunks his cell phone in the whiskey like and then just sort of ambles into the office calling everyone by their first name while he talks about you know his euro I thought was a great addition to the show is Mr. Charles on your mind? What are you most excited about in terms of these news storylines. Yeah, Mr. Charles is really interesting. I was also like freeze-frame zooming in on the signet ring, which felt very deliberately multiple times, but most notably of all, the first moment that we glimpsed his character at the bar presented in the frame for us to consider and observe. I love a guy who is willing to make the trip because he needs the miles. Great little miles going in the miles. That's a wonderful opening note. Dunking the burner, he had just like a litany of empty glasses behind that beverage that he befouled with the burner. So you're like, okay, the passion for lunch, many drinks deep. This guy is a mover and a shaker, and who's on the other end of all of these calls? And then when he walks in the room and Sheila's like, I don't know who you are or if you're allowed to be here. And he's like, I'm definitely supposed to be here, Sheila. Yeah, it's the first name check that he did. Juan. Yeah. Like, you know, it's very, very interesting. I am going to make it undeniable that I am in control of this situation in a way that you don't understand aura that he exuded. And then, of course, the phone call to the attorney general who's there to lecture Fisk about, you know, the Safer Streets Initiative not running through the governor or the attorney general's office. And he's not abiding by the way of things. And there's no oversight. and they're there to lecture him and whack him on the nose, and then Mr. Charles comes in to thwart that, helping Fisk in the moment, right? Oh, we hear De Fontaine, so it's Val on the line. Interesting twist, serious for your thoughts on that. But then we go elsewhere in the episode to the sequence between Mr. Charles and Vanessa and Wilson, and there is an undeniable note of tension there, right? And there's this question overall with everything that happened on the Northern Star of like, okay, we keep hearing from the captain and the first mate, we did what we were supposed to do, we sunk the ship, but on whose orders? Because Fisk is furious. It's like, is Mr. Charles the one responsible for what that secret directive was that they were supposed to destroy this vessel? And is he actually working against Fisk, not in cahoots with him? Which seems likely to me in terms of how this is going to unfold. And so that's interesting. Does Fisk think that this guy is there to be an ally, but he'll actually be an opponent? Who knows? I don't think he's working against Fisk directly. I think he's just trying to, he needs Fisk and Vanessa for this weapons running operation, and he doesn't care. The point is to hide the ball here. So if it's his directive to sink the ship right, his priority is hide the operation, not what will look good for Mayor Wilson Fisk. Right. So it's not like he's secretly working to undermine Fisk or anything like that. Maybe that's not what you were saying. But I think it's just that, like, he's like, my agenda is the number one agenda. And if that is in contrast to what is good for you, I don't give a shit. But if you're useful to me, I will help get Albany off your back or whatever the case may be. You know what I mean? Which is sort of like, as long as you're useful to me, I will be your friend. A potential thing to explore on the Val front as well, where you could see how Val and Fisk and Mr. Charles working as aligned political operatives to control the levers of power in New York and the country and the globe and however far they want to stretch it. Obviously, this is a street-level story, but how deep is the ambition when Val is also connected to the New Avengers in another slice of the story? right now. It's, like, interesting, but, yeah, I think the question of when these power brokers are truly working toward common cause or just it's convenient to be aligned in a given moment and then that ends up being a source of conflict or one person needs to get the edge over the other. Like, Kingpin is obviously not a character who responds well to somebody deceiving him. The only person he is willing to forgive that from ever is Vanessa. So... Say it right. Say it correctly. I can't really do it. That's your... Vanessa. Vanessa. So, yeah, I'm curious to see how that goes. And it's fun to have Mr. Charles in the story. And I'm curious to see how that goes. Here's where I will say something unexpectedly nice about Dr. Heather Glenn, a character that did not work at all for me in season one, which is, like, taking her out of the love interest place, putting her into, like, sort of part of the villainy side of things, her PTSD being part of it. did I get a little twice we get the sort of like canted angle she's going into her PTSD space sort of stuff. I don't need that to be a main storyline but the fact that like they've slotted her into the vigilante trials, Jack Duquesne, all that sort of stuff. Like that's just a much more interesting place to put that character than like love Lorne in the dark you know love interest for for Matt Murdock, you know what I mean? And so like, as long as I don't have to deal with a lot of like Matt and Heather stuff, I'm sure we'll have to deal with some, but as long as I don't have to deal with a lot, I don't mind her being part of, you know, the cabinet that is assembled around Wilson Fisk. I just prefer her there, but maybe I would prefer in general that, that, uh, she not be there at all. And is that the answer to one of the questions I had in our notes here is like, which storyline character were you sort of hoping they had cut? Is there someone where you're like, oh, we're still doing this? Is it Dr. Heather Glenn? Is it anyone else? I guess one episode might be too soon to say, but I wasn't like, oh, I'm excited to be back with Heather. That was not something that I felt and not something that I agree with you. I think that it is also more interesting to me, and I think it is kind of like conceptually compelling to say that a character who in the first season was very, you know, obviously like her work, and she's a therapist, she's a counselor, she's positioned as being there to help people and help them parse and navigate their trauma. And she's very set in her views in season one in a way that obviously leads to conflict between her and Matt. But she is also, like, principled and morally inclined. And, you know, she has this real stance. You know, she's writing the book about people who wear masks and the vigilante, like, what would lead a person to do this thing. And so to see her personal experience and her personal trauma so substantially guide her into life decisions that are bad and reckless. And, like, you do feel, even though I don't have, like, a fondness or an affection for Heather, like, when you see her break out the pencil eraser and change the mark on Jack's form because Hochberg called her and told her, Fisk and I want you to do this. Like, it's a bad feeling to see somebody morally compromised in that way. And so I'm interested to see if she can pull herself out of that. But if I'm being honest, I don't care about Heather's character. So it's hard to feel too invested in that outcome. I don't – I'm not rooting for her to have a face turn. I'm uninterested in a Dr. Heather Glenn redemption. Hochberg is another interesting, like, you know, as I mentioned last season, this is an actor who I really, really liked, Benjamin Hickey. So I'm, like, excited to, like, for him to be sort of more integrated into the mix. And I did think his scene with Kirsten was interesting because, you know, all of the – a colleague of ours, and I won't name them in case they're, like, leave me out of this, but, like, a colleague of ours was, like, a little bit, like, the anti-vigilante task force inside of, like, the ice moment that we find ourselves in the country is maybe, like, a little too real for what I want for my Daredevil show. You know what I mean? It's a little too much like, this is reality, and I don't want to deal with it. But in the sort of thinly veiled Trump-ish narrative that we're telling here, McGuffey saying, what happened to you? And Hochberg saying, I read the tea leaves. Yes. Is just like such a true story that we're just seeing again and again and again around the country of just people being like, this is the way the pendulum is swinging, And if I want to stay in the good graces, my personal moral compass can swing that way, too, if it needs to, you know, and so not necessarily someone who always started as corrupt and not someone who's necessarily evil, but someone who is just so narrowly focused on their own, protecting their own self-interest, which is evil in its own right. But like that, they're just sort of like, I read the tea leaves and I'm just going to go this way. That's how it's going to go. And I don't I don't much care what the ramifications are. if it means I, me, you know, talking about like the last of us, who is the us? Like if me and mine are safe, then that's all that matters inside of the calculus of what's going on in the world right now. Yeah, I mean, it's obviously, it's harrowing, it's sickening. And I like that conversation between Counselor McDuffie, as she has requested to be calm, and Hochberg. And I thought it was chilling and effectively chilling. I think that if people are like, I don't need to be thinking of the horrific state of our current reality when I watch Daredevil, that's obviously completely reasonable and up to each individual person. I think that this version of Wilson Fisk on the Netflix show and in the MCU to date has been trump-coded the entire time. And, you know, Daredevil is a— Specifically, this person was talking about the task force, which, like, you know, was part of season one and were just, like, living in an even more intensive, like, you know, mask task forces are now going to the airport or whatever the case may be, you know, moment in time. Okay, so let's talk about the fight scenes really quickly. we've got two significant ones and then I'm going to throw the Karen and Matt training sequence in the middle as well but like you know so we heard you like it when Charlie Cox punches things we're going to open with the Northern Star which I don't know if it made you think of the Lemurian Star but it did make me think of Winter Soldier bathing him in red light as he kicks and flips and punches and stomps we get Karen and Matt training we get a not a word stick mention but a stick illusion inside of their training sequence And I did like the moment when he sort of like somewhat loses control and she's like, you're going too fast. Calm down. Right. Sort of moment. And then we end with the Cherry Rescue. Yeah. We get a needle drop. Gee whiz. This Carla Thomas track of 1961, which I really like. But again, sort of made me think of Winter Soldier, made me think of Nick Fury's apartment and stuff like that. I'm never upset to be thinking about Winter Soldier, though. And then we get, you know, Matt versus the task force. And then this, like, stomp and scream maneuver, which he did both in the beginning fight scene and the end, which I guess is his, like, new signature move. I don't really remember it as a signature Matt move, but this, like, stomping down and screaming and rage seems to be, like, maybe quite therapeutic. I don't know. Maybe perhaps we should try it. But that seems to be a new move for him. But then this, like, foggy PTSD as Cherry's heart rate is slowing triggers Matt. And then we get to quote Mr. Charles himself, divine fucking intervention from my guide deck. What did you think of the use of the fight scenes here? This, again, this was, like, a season one note. Not that we had, but something that they did going back through and fixing, quote, unquote, season one of Daredevil Board again was, like, add more action, more fight sequences. is. So, like, we're right off the bat. We're bookended by, like, Major Matt in his new black suit going to battle. Did this work for you? Is this a huge component? Do you need it in every episode? How do you feel about it? Interesting question. I thought that the action was decent in the first episode and functioned well inside of this episode to show us the new suit and allow us to get Matt on the security cam and see who is, like, aware that this is him and who isn't aware, etc. Like, that was, you know, I think that nothing here is even close to, hearing you mention Winter Soldier is interesting to me, it reminds me that we're big Rings of Power fans, but it reminds me of, like, the big battle in season one where people were, like, kind of, I'm saying people, like, this was a mass response, I don't think it was, but even so, like, don't invite me to think about Helm's Deep if you're not going to be able to match Helm's Deep. It's kind of like, don't invite me to think about Winter Soldier if you're not going to match Winter Soldier. I don't know that that's, like, wise. Um but I just think nothing here is even close to like this is the hallway fight or this is the stairwell Oh no you know nothing is even close to that it all kind of always fun to watch charlie cox daredevil kicks an ass though and you know i think that the way that they say like they say fuck a lot in this episode i would say almost like a notable like we're showing you we're saying fuck a lot there's a snapping of an arm and exposed bone there was like similar to season one i think a declaration of intent that this is like adult and violent, right, that was clarified there. I thought that the heartbeat sequence with Cherry was really good and really effective in how it showed us that, because every time you watch Matt Murdock as Daredevil fight, and this is true for a number of superheroes who wear masks and have a secret identity, you're like, oh my God, what if someone pulls the mask off? It's like always in the back of your mind as a fan reading a comic or watching a show or watching a movie. and then they fucking did it because he was so unmoored and destabilized by Cherry's heart attack making him think of the rhythm of Foggy's heart slowing and fading as his best friend died in front of him and he couldn't do anything to stop it that he let those guys kick his ass and show, reveal his face, reveal who he was and then Dex came through and saved the day and it didn't end up mattering but it was like whoa that was harrowing. That was effective. What was funny is like as soon as they pulled his mask off I was like oh, all those guys have to die. I was like, is Matt going to kill a bunch? And then Dex is like, I got it. You don't have to get your hands dirty. I'll do it. Incredible stuff. It's very thoughtful of him. Really? He's a charismatic and caring guy, and he's always there to help. That's always been true. The beautiful romantic gesture of, like, the handwritten note on the knife. Who does the love of handwritten love letter? Great stuff. With, like, a little doodle? I mean, come on. Always thinking about branding, Matt Dex. Here's my note for Matt and Karen. Is sexy, sweaty, training kind of always hot? Yeah, it is. If it were me and I, you know, we're on the run, and there were posters, wanted posters for me all around the city, as we got to see. I was laughing when we saw Karen Page poster. It was great. And then cutting to her with the wig and in the bodega and, like, the little season one caramel corn callback and all that with the folder stash. Like, I don't know if my secret lair, if I really didn't want to be fat, I would just be right above my known favorite bar. This is the note from me to them. That's all. I mean, on the one hand, I really agree with you. On the other hand, is it like we trust that, like, Josie won't narc on us. And maybe they just assume everyone's too stupid to look there or thinks they would not hide. It's like Bran, you know, just I'm down here in the crypt. You'll never think to look there. Maybe it's one of those. Fair, fair, fair. Okay, you already alluded to this, but I did think it was interesting. the couple times that we got Matt talking both to Karen about, like, how we need to believe in the system and then to the owner of the Aegean Gardens, who's sort of, like, running this deportation operation of, like, we have to try, right? So, yeah, this, like, hopeful Matt Murdock. And I like it. Again, it's a little, like, Steve Rogers. He's never going to be Steve Rogers, obviously. Like, that's not even a possibility. But this sort of, like, I just, I don't like a despairing, cynical Matt Murdock. I like a sort of, I got to believe in something Matt Murdock, you know. And despair can go with it. Inner angst always has to be there, right? Oh, my God, of course. Self-recrimination, self-hatred has to be there. Like, all of that. But, like, we have to try. Yeah. I, that just, like, really worked for me. And I just like, I like where we're finding versus where we found him at the beginning of the first season of Born Again. I really like where we find him here. And I'm invested in what this version of Matt can do. Can he stay connected to Karen? Can he, you know, in any way he chooses? Can he succeed? Can he win? Can he fight the system? you know, by using the system. I don't know. I'm hopeful. I dare to hope. Hope Corps is back, you know? I'm really with you. Let me throw out a controversial take, which is I would like Karen and Frank to hook up and for Matt and Karen to not be together. I thought that's the way I heard your heartbeat. I don't think that's either controversial or new from you. I think you never wanted Karen with that, which is fine. and a lot of people want Frank and Karen together right? like this is a very that was one of my favorite stretches in the end of season one was like because it was just delicious and that like you know I heard your heartbeats and Karen's saying how unfair it was and then like did you hear my heartbeat when I saw you? and he's like I did so it's all there in all directions and that's messy and sexy and complicated and fun so I like that I'm kind of like excited to see what the vibe is with Karen and Frank when Frank shows up at some point this season. I always love when Frank and Matt and Karen get a chance to interact. It's just like the best. I thought those were the highlights of season one for me. I really agree with you. Here's my question. Why not both for Karen? Yeah. Why not? Why don't they become a thrift? All three. Yeah, why not? All together. That would be great. We ship it. I would watch. I agree with you on Matt. I think that we have always, you know, we talked about this so much when we revisited a lot of our favorite moments from the original series ahead of season one, that state of torment, that complexity, that simultaneous need and propensity to reflect and look inward and assess, but also the moments where he is really unable to process his relationship to his own ideals or needs or state of torment. It's why Matt is such a memorable character across iterations. I got a kick out of the new suit with the double D, which people, you know, we've been seeing teased for, like, a year and a half at this point. And, you know, in, like, the glimpses of the rest of the season to come, we've seen that, like, there's the black paint that's going to kind of chip away and reveal the red beneath the suit. You know, Charlie Cox has talked about how he's excited about that kind of custom aspect of the suit that he gets to wear this season. Seeing the DD and then hearing the dastardly do-getter joke. And then you remind yourself that Matt chose to call himself Daredevil, the devil of Hell's Kitchen and this, like, the contradictions inside of him that drive him. And there's never just an either or with Matt. He's always moving in and out of these states. But the fact that at these moments, we have seen this version of Matt before in moments where his friends are there and people in his life are there for him and they're saying to him, don't do this thing. Don't pull away. Don't recede. Don't hide. Let us help you. Let us remind yourself of who you are and who we are and what we can try to do together. And he can't do it. He won't allow himself to do it. So I really agree with you, I think, to see in a moment that is so dire, like this one, where they're in hiding, they can't engage with the people around them. Even just to go see Cherry under the bridge, Cherry's like, I'm shocked. I kind of can't believe you're here, right? Kirsten doesn't know that he's okay. We hear Kirsten and Cherry talk, and then Cherry says to Matt, can't you just let her know that you're okay? No, I don't want to risk her and Cherry's like, what about me? great moment. I can't remember. This probably was from season one. Did they have the sort of like reservation like auto message coding in season one? I can't remember either. That's good. I was like, that's really good. Handy to be able to send that quick. No, I can't make this reservation tonight. Please come help me immediately. It worked. But yeah, like a moment where Matt should be feeling helpless and hopeless and full of despair is the moment where he's like, no. I am going to tell myself that we can find a way I can find a way. This city can find a way the institutions that we have put our faith into, even when they failed us, like we can find a way to restore that faith in each other and in the society that we build and inhabit. Like it's awesome to see Matt in that place when he has every reason not to be. So I thought that as well. I think we've already mentioned sort of this like larger connection to the MCU stuff, but like we've got Val here, we get a Jessica Jones, mentioned we know that Jessica Jones is in this season. I will just say, like, as we sort of try to navigate Mr. Charles' like murky motivations and stuff like that, the idea that like Val directing Albany to cooperate with Fisk's anti-vigilante agenda while also creating the new Avengers in presumably a similar timeline is confusing to me. Yeah. But I'm willing to let the season play out and help me understand what's going on there. But like, yeah, you know, Val, Val, like Mr. Charles inside of this episode is just like wherever is going to go wherever she needs to go and do and be on whatever side she needs to be on for her own agenda. So like, well, stay tuned to find out. But I just think it's interesting. The architect of the new Avengers is like, sure, let's let's have these vigilante trials. Why not? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I guess, you know, all of the different strands of Val and how Val, who's been, like, kind of, ultimately, if we counted up the total minutes of screen time, it's fairly limited, but we have, like, a number of different properties and appearances, and we have, like, you know, the CIA, the established CIA connection and tie. So trying to tap into, I was like, oh, yeah, this is an interesting moment to invoke Val in this way. I'm curious to see if Val's, like, in the show or just a name to mention on the phone that is a familiar name that we associate with Langley and lend some credibility to Mr. Charles watching it and saying I'm from Langley, even if that's not true. I feel like it's a way for Lillard's character to be sort of connected to something that feels established in the MCU. The same way that, like, you know, if we see, like, Department of Image Control or something like that, like, someone is part of a larger organization that we already recognize. Speaking of which, and speaking of MCU Connections, shall we swing right into our Spider-Man Brand New Day trailer check-in? All right, let's do it. All right, so release date. So all of Daredevil, Born Again, and then the Punisher special, that brings us, like, into May. And then we have June off and most of July. And then July 31st, we get Spider-Man Brand New Day, directed by Destin Daniel Cretton. This is the first of the Holland Spidey movies not to be directed by John Watt. But, of course, Destin Daniel Cretton has worked in the MCU, directed Shang-Chi, worked on Wonder Man, which has got a second season. Congratulations, Wonder Man. We're so thrilled. And then the movie itself was written by Chris McKenna and Eric Summers, who worked on the original trilogy. So, like, the tone. So, they have talked about how this will feel tonally different. In terms of, like, characterization, we have the same writers on board, so I'm not really worried about this not feeling like Holland's Spider-Man or Zendaya's MJ or anything like that. And premise-wise, it's set four years after the events of No Way Home. Yes. So, I think this solves the question I have, which is, like, Ned and MJ have finished their undergrad at MIT and are perhaps moving to the city. and that's why Peter winds up at their housewarming sort of thing, right? Like that's their post-grad, we're going to go to the city sort of move. I guess so. So like Peter at the beginning of the trailer is watching a video, you know, of Ned and MJ talking about, you know, like pretend like you're not the happiest you've ever been in your entire life. I can't at the beginning of MIT. So are we quickly moving across time at all before we root in the present timeline? Or are we going to be like watching this video on repeat for four years, torturing himself? Could be either. I feel like he's stalking their social media accounts for four years, and we're going to see him, you know, like, putting his costume in the washing dryer and, like, all the other things that we see sort of in this trailer. I want to start with what isn't in this trailer, which is Sadie Sink's face, right? We do not see Stranger Things star current West End Juliet herself, Sadie Sink, her beautiful face, her flaming red hair in this trailer. We do, however, see a character who is restrained at the minute 43, second mark, doing a sort of Night King raise hand move at a minute 57. So we know that they've been obscuring which character she's going to play. How far do you think they're going to take this sort of obscuring Sadie Sink from the promo? Was that intriguing to you? Was that frustrating to you? How did you feel about how she was deployed in the trailer? um i mean i assume she's playing gene gray and that the x-men are going to be a pretty big part of this movie and i think there are a number of different clues in this trailer that support that so i guess at a certain point it feels to me like they might just show us and tell us that but maybe they won't maybe that would be a surprise when you sit down in the theater and see the movie and it's just it's possible that's not who she's playing but like what they could do is like similar to even though Zendaya is not playing Mary Jane the similar to like that thing that happens in the first in Homecoming where her name's Michelle and at the very end they're like MJ you know what I mean so like if we don't have her name until the very end of the movie like that is something they could do if they wanted to yeah um I also think she's playing Jean Grey I also think we see her like psychically possessed various people inside of even though as as people are quick to point out, that's not usually how Jean Grey's psychic powers work. She's not really like a psychic symbiote, like hopping from host to host. That's not really the Jean Grey maneuver. But it does seem like the, if she is playing Jean Grey, the sequence where we see some sort of entity hopping from a bewildered older woman through various soldiers all around Peter at the minute 50 one second mark. There's also all this talk about mutation. this phrase amounts to a kind of rebirth, which some people are like, is that Phoenix language? So, like, I also think she's playing Jean Grey. I also have, like, no doubt she's playing Jean Grey. I don't know if this is going to be a big... Yes, it's great casting. I don't know if this is going to be a big... if I agree this is going to be a big X-Men movie. I think this is going to be, like, a Jean Grey intro, but not, like, a larger sort of X-Men sort of thing. I think one as a way into the other, potentially. And again, like, we genuinely have, to be clear, no idea if this is true or not. It just seems like there's a lot of evidence mounting. I think that the, so I agree with you. I think that, because we get that cool, before we get kind of the close-up of the hands that are cuffed to the chair, the sort of, like, zoomed-in shot, we get the panned-out shot of this, like, observation cell, like, basically, like, mini-studio apartment set up in the middle of a... Under lock and key. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the kind of, so there, you know, you're in this like white observation room and there's this cell in the middle and the wood panel is like rising and we can see the feet are manacled. And then when it gets higher, we see the hands are manacled and then we cut into that closer view of the cuffed hands. And it's like a bedroom setting in the room. And okay, and then there, you know, in the outer observation deck around that, the camera is everywhere. So this idea that whoever's in there is not only imprisoned, but is being observed, is being studied. that would certainly fit with this being a captured mutant, a powerful, like someone you, you know, like putting Magneto in a completely plastic prison. Exactly. Like someone, a mutant who is so powerful, we need to take all of these extremes to keep her contained. Exactly. I think that the, so it's a 207 mark when Peter kind of slams into the bus and scrapes against the window and there's a kid inside and the headphones and a jetpack. I don't actually think that's rogue. But I think the fact that the hair is so rogue-like is just a little wink to maybe give us a little bit more of an X-Men mindset potentially. I saw so many people be like, that's rogue or whatever, and I was just like, but also that's a very popular hairstyle right now. Like, this is sort of like Narcissa-esque. Is the rogue who's in the world? I love it. Like, block coloring, like, a bleach section in the front of your hair is, like, quite a popular... I think how... I mean, like, she's wearing, like, a green... Like, the way she's dressed, like, possibly, but, like, also it's just, like, that's also just, like, how young people look. Maybe. I mean, I don't... Again, I don't think that actually will prove to be rogue, but it did say, like, they know that people are going to watch this and hear the talk of mutations and speculate about is Sadie Sink playing Jean Grey and, like, some of the other stuff that we hear and, like, think about mutants and the X-Men are going to be on their mind as they have been now across the last few years of anticipating the, like, full arrival after many sort of drips and dabs across properties. So it's probably like a little, like, wink to me, but who knows. I think that the Tramiel Tillman character saying to Spidey, we are faced with a danger that we can't control, one we can't even see, certainly feels to me like he is speaking about the mutants. Now, that could be any number of other things. It just feels like we know definitively we're at a moment in the MCU where that is what we are moving toward, right? That stretch of story. And so, like, these feel like, these clues and signs and indications to me don't feel like reaches for us to try to connect to in a way that they did maybe five, ten years ago. I really agree. The captioning, if you turn the closed captioning on, on YouTube, on the trailer. By the way, we should say this trailer, like, obliterated, like, every trailer record in the history of humanity. People seem hyped about this movie. And I didn't even say that at the beginning, but I thought this trailer was fucking great. And I'm hyped. Great. This is awesome. I would say both trailers that we're talking about today are fucking awesome. And also, like, year of Zendaya. I know. Is it not? Like, it's absolutely insane. It's so wild that they're in The Odyssey and Spider-Man, like, two weeks apart. What a July. My goodness. What a time. So if you turn on the closed captioning on YouTube on the trailer, when you see this at the 150 mark, we are faced with a danger that we can't control, one we can't see. He is labeled as Bill. Bill. Yeah. His character has not been identified fully, but this seems reasonable to, I think, Marvel Comics fans to speculate that Bill is, in fact, William Metzger, Department of Damage Control, anti-mutant agenda. So I think, like, they didn't have to put Bill in there. It feels like another, like, you guys probably know where this is heading, and we're giving you, you know, you recently broke out the all-time meme, Mr. Policeman. We gave you all the clues on how to do our episode. We can do it again right now. Yeah, and so that's exciting. I think it's, it feels very certain the way that Department of Damage Control has been employed in Spider-Man properties. And, like, Tramiel Tillman is, like, perfect casting for Department of Damage Control. So good. Let's go to the next part of my, I flipped the notes around a little on you, but it makes sense. If we're talking about mutants, let's go into the mutation plot, right? So, like, leaving potential Jean Grey and the X-Men aside, big thing to leave aside, but let's leave that aside for a moment. we have a mutation, a stated mutation plot for Peter Parker, right? And which I think is such like a thematically interesting idea. This is, of course, something that Spider-Man has dealt with in the comics on and off, you know, this is a classic Spidey plot, but this idea of this point in time, and Tom Holland has talked about this for Peter Parker, like, you know, the end of No Way Home, like, like, shedding everything that he knew to go off on his own and become not Peter Parker, but just Spider-Man, right? He's not really Peter Parker anymore, right? Aunt May is dead and no one remembers him. He's just Spider-Man. Is this movie about work-life balance? I have a question and I hope it is. But this idea that he's grappling with what it means to go from a boy to a man, right? a high schooler into, like, an adult living in New York City. And alongside of that sort of emotional coming of a different age storyline for him is this physical mutation, this organic, you know, this Tobey Maguire-esque organic webbing idea, a lot of connections, visual connections in this trailer to the Garfield movies and the McGuire movies, and Into the Spider-Verse, you know, which is like a big reason why No Way Home was so popular with people was of course it felt like this interconnected Spidey-verse, let's lean in and this trailer very much feels like it's leaning in, but like this physical mutation going along with the emotional transformation of a young man into still a young man but slightly older, and then And then we get this, like, very intriguing shot at the two-minute, 12-second mark of Spider-Man with, like, all blacked-out eyes. Is he mind-controlled by potentially Jean Grey, possibly? Is he mutating in some way, probably? Arjun, our producer, and plenty of the internet are like, is this man-spider? Are we getting, like, man-spider, which might mean we get multiple-limbed Peter Parker? I don't know how I feel about that, but in the sort of, like, quote, more grounded, like, Tom Holland Spider-Man movies that we're supposed to be getting. But how do you feel about this mutation plot in general and maybe do you have any theories about the two-minute, 12-second mark shot of Spidey? Yeah, I'm into all of this. You know, I think that, obviously, it connects with the thing we'll talk about next, which is just this ongoing state of nobody remembering who Peter is. and that's just really fucking sad, right? And there are some interesting glimpses in this trailer of maybe the pull that other people are feeling toward a certain, oh, a lot of pictures of Spider-Man in MJ's apartment, et cetera. But in general, I think that this was another interesting way to me because, like, to be clear, Peter Parker is the idea of a mutation. That's not the same as mutants in the X-Men. This is a different film. No, no, no. But it is a clever thing. No, no, no. I'm not saying you're saying it. But, like, that's a clever way in the trailer to still create a kind of sense of, like, connectivity and parallel experience with, like, a thing inside of you is changing. This is, like, core to these characters and their comics origins and why so many people around the world love them and love to read about their lives, right? Like, you have already been through this thing, and then you are changing again in some way. You know, one of the bits of the narration that we hear is spiders have three life cycles. When better cycles can leave the spider vulnerable to threats. So this idea of, like, ongoing change after confronting this massive change of just becoming Spider-Man in the first place. I think the man-spider theories are interesting in seeing the shift from needing the, you know, we got that great. This was all over the Internet, too, the kind of side-by-side shot of Tony in his lab in the black tank top. and then Tom Holland's Peter in this trailer and the black tank top, like a very, like, visually coded Tony Stark connection. And still rooting this Peter in that relationship and that bond and that history, but also sort of saying, like, you know, this suit, there's no tech, right? This isn't actually the, like, Iron Man's apprentice Spider-Man era anymore. Like, he is changing in a number of different ways, including how his power set functions in the MCU. you i think like the sequence where he falls out of the window and he wakes up in the cocoon of webbing and he's like oh shit oh my oh my god like i'm not wearing my web shooters what am i gonna do and then falls and then saves himself anyway you're like holy shit they're gonna do the organic web shooting like this is why a wild moment and the eye the the full pools of black in the eye i think that there's a way to do the man spider thing which is let is more still rooted and grounded in this version of the story and doesn't necessarily feel like here are all of my many limbs and is more just like leaning into the idea of the spider subsuming the man and what's the balance work-life balance yeah exactly what the balance you can't be you can't be all spider-man all the time you have to be peter like if he's just obliterated the peter parker part of his life right and he's just like i'm just spider-man and that is reflected in like the spider overtaking him well and i kind of like that as a sort of um you know we all have lessons to learn about work life hours why not so you know i think there's like a really emotionally um rich vein to tap there too because one of the things that we hear you know peter say he's got this right this this the letter there it is it's back and he's like reading parts of it in this trailer and you know we hear sometimes spider-man has to do the hard thing even if it breaks peter parker's heart and it's like what if this, what if maintaining this sacrifice and this new reality that he opted into because it was a thing he felt was right and had to do to preserve the world around him has become, the pain is too, it's unbearable. The humanity is what makes it difficult. So then you have something like Bruce saying, if the DNA is mutating, it could be extremely dangerous. You have the actual peril, like how is this a survivable thing, this evolution, this mutation, but also just like, well, what if Peter almost welcomes the suppressing of the humanity and the Peter inside of the Spider-Man? Because it's too hard to be Peter if he has to be Peter without MJ and without Ned and without the people he loves. Like, I think that would be a really beautiful story to explore. And what a great classic genre way to use the, like, actual manifestation of his powers and abilities to tell us how he's feeling inside. Like, I'm really hyped for this movie. We love a mean metaphor. The memory plot, which as you alluded to, so like we get a lot of sad yearning. I love a year and always. We get a lot of MJ and Ned inside of this trailer. But I am curious with Jean Grey and Department of Damage Control and Frank and Bruce and a rogue gallery, which we can list out later. how much room is there for NJ and Ned inside of this movie? Like, are we seeing a lot of the actual NJ and Ned scenes and they won't be a huge part of this movie? I would not be surprised in the year of Zendaya, when she has so much shit to do, and there was also, and this is just like, I don't know the answer to this, but like, there was also a question of whether or not Zendaya would even be in this movie for a while as they were like figuring out the shape of it and the contracts, and so like, is Zendaya here to a limited degree I don't have an answer. I'm just asking questions. But, like, I think it's entirely possible that they could just, like, load up a bunch of the Zendaya stuff into the trailer because that's what people want is Tom Holland and Zendaya. And Jacob, of course. You know, so, like, I have some questions about that. And then you wanted to call out who we see, I don't know, tucking MJ's hair behind her ear inside of this trailer. Oh, my God. Ezra Bridger is here. Monica Spondy is here. I guess there's some, you know, speculation like who he is. Could he be playing Harry Osborn? Is that something that's going to happen in this movie? That would be, I think, very interesting and very cool. You do, I think, start to worry if he's playing someone as big as Harry, that there are just maybe too many characters in this movie. But we've had that concern with the Spider-Man movie before. Where are you these days on No Way Home? Like, I know that, like, so here's, like, the larger temp, I think, on No Way Home, which is that people, like, had the best fucking time in the theater and that they loved it and that there are perhaps some diminishing returns on rewatch for them. But that was, like, a concern about No Way Home is, like, are there just too many fucking characters, too many things going on in this movie? I actually felt like I actually haven't rewatched No Way Home a lot. And so as a result, my brain is just clinging to the parts of the movie that I really like. So I actually think I have found myself liking it more as time has gone on because I'm only thinking about the parts that really worked for me. And I really liked mainly everything Andrew Garfield does. But just anecdotally, I feel like on rewatch, people aren't as high on No Way Home as they were before. What are your thoughts on that? I certainly haven't had any, like, I haven't experienced any diminishment in my fondness for it, but I haven't, it's been a minute since I've watched it. I'll have to see, like, when we're closer to this movie and revisiting all of it, how I feel about it. But I still really like it. And in general, the Spidey franchise is one of my favorite parts of the MCU, and I think one of the most successful parts of the MCU. So I have a lot of fondness for all of those films. I your question about how much MJ and Ned will be in the movie is a really interesting one because I okay so to connect it back to Sadie Sink for a second yeah my initial I think like much of the I guess the gene thing was there as a theory right away honestly because there's been so much X-Men casting rumor talk for so long that was out there as a possibility if you have red hair and you're a thousand enough sort of performer to maybe anchor a phase of the MCU maybe people are going to think you're a Jean Grey. But for a while also, it was like, could she be playing Gwen? And then there were also a lot of Harry casting rumors. And so I was like, not expecting MJ and Ned to be a big part of this movie, because I thought we were going to be in like a Gwen Harry kind of really like, yeah, a brand new day transitional phase and sort of just the character set around Peter. This trailer to me signals something so clearly distinct from that, which is like, no, the things that matter to Peter still matter to him. And like, yes, we have the flowers on May's grave and, of course, the painful letter and just the, you know, the reinforcement that nothing has changed. They don't know who he is. Bruce Banner, when he goes to him, you know, in his Empire State University sweatshirt to ask for his help, does not know who he is. Like, even the Avengers don't know, haven't been brought into the loop of, like, who he is. That's kind of wild. I think that the fact that he's like I've moved in across from you and I'm at your parties and I'm here it's like it makes me feel like they're actually going to be in the movie way more than I anticipated because this is still just like the set of people who are most important to him and especially because of the MJ moments in this trailer where like again we have all of the stuff on the wall in their apartment all of these pictures of Spider-Man behind Peter and that shot at the end and it's like then when MJ and Ned are watching the news footage, Sheila giving Sheila here, Sheila everywhere on today's pod, giving Spider-Man the key to the city, that look on MJ's face. It feels to me like she is remembering who he is, or at least is drawn. Maybe this is her classic MJ Spidey stuff, but maybe there's an awakening inside of her. I think she remembers... My feeling would be she remembers Spider-Man more than she remembers Peter Parker. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, there's something there. There's something that... And she's smart, and we loved watching her figure it out like in the first place uh you know in far from home and stuff like that so like um yeah all of that's interesting to me i don't know i'll be curious yeah i'll be curious how much like jean gray sadie sink feels like the female lead of this movie and how much michelle uh zendaya feels like the female lead of this movie and and not that there only needs to be one but i'm just i'm curious about that let's talk about let's talk about sheila But more importantly, let's talk about Spidey and Frank, right? So, like, there is a ton of Daredevil born-again crossover here, right? Because we have, like, Sheila here giving Spidey the key to the city. Feels like a slight potential Daredevil born-again spoiler to me because, like, I feel like there's no way this season ends with Fisk still in charge. if Spidey is being given, Spidey of mass vigilante is being given the key to the city by Sheila. So I like this idea. A lot of people have been throwing around this. Season 1, Episode 4, quote from Sheila, from Daredevil Board again, where she says to Daniel Blake, I was here before you and before Fisk and I will be here long after you're both gone. So if the Fisk administration collapses by the end of Season 2, Daredevil Board again, but Sheila's still here handing out keys to the city, it's an ending I'm kind of interested in. The hand is also here. Again, it's a very packed movie, but the hand is also here, which is such a daredevil sort of connective tissue moment. And then obviously we'll talk about Frank Castle, but there's like a lot of rumors that Charlie Cox's movie, Charlie Cox says he is not in this movie, but so too did Andrew Garfield and Tobey Maguire. This is so weird to me as a thing to, I would say, clearly lie about, given that it makes complete sense for them to interact and is established that they have interacted. Like, Charlie Cox and Spat Murdoch was in the last Spider-Man movie. Now, it's like, of course, there's the whole nobody remembers who this guy is aspect here, sure. But the idea of them reconnecting as Spider-Man and Daredevil or Peter and Matt in some way or all of the above, whatever, feels like so plausible that I don't know. I never believe any of these. Of course, I understand they have to manufacture this fiction and tell us that they're not in these movies. But this is one where it's like, That would just be, I think, fine to know that Charlie Cox is in this movie, if he is. I know. I guess they just want that moment, that same, like, holy shit, Andrew Garfield and Tobey Maguire here moment in the theater. But I don't think, like, to your point, Charlie Cox has already been in a Spider-Man movie, so it, like, doesn't feel at all to have a minor Daredevil, Bored Again character in Sheila is here, and then, of course, Frank Castle is here. So, like, this Punisher-Spider-Man relationship inside of this trailer is so fun. We have, like, a really fun, cheeky, like, basically Captain America language moment where we get to sort of like edit Frank Castle to make him Spider movie friendly with the web on the mouth But like this is what Holland said talking about, he says the relationship between Spider-Man and the Punisher is so funny and it changed a lot. It evolved as we were shooting because John and I would improvise. It started as this relationship with two people kind of hate each other, I guess. And as we started improvising, it became this kind of big brother, little brother rivalry. It might be my favorite dynamic I've ever seen with Spider-Man. So that's very. intriguing and exciting. What is funny, though, is going back through how Holland has talked about this movie, he also said that Big Brother, Little Brother dynamic about Bruce Banner in this movie, so this seems to be just sort of like a Tom Holland go-to. Better to stick to a couple of talking points that accidentally spoil all the things they don't want him to spoil. For sure. But something that Feige said a while ago about putting Dustin Daniel Cretton in charge of this movie is that he had all these, like, Marvel comic book covers that he was excited to recreate, including, like, Punisher and Spidey covers. He already recreated the cover of the very first Spidey story in this trailer at the two-minute, eight-second mark. There's Spidey carrying a, you know, a guy through the air. It's like the original Spider-Man comic cover. So, you know, obviously these Marvel directors love to, like, flash their comic book bona fides, and we love that for them. But, like, there is so much rich, fertile Punisher and Spidey territory. This is a really fun mode to find Frank Castle in. Like, because Punisher, I was not a huge fan of the Netflix Punisher series. I've said that before. So Punisher and his sort of, like, grim, dark Punisher place, not my fave. Punisher bouncing off someone else who is not in that space, really fun. And, like, I'm really excited for him here as a counter to Peter. What did you think of him in the trailer here? I mean, I just, I pretty much always love John Gassel as Frank Gassel puncher. Like, I just think he's great in the role and really perfect for it. And even when the episodes that he's in are not good, he's still so kind of mesmerizing to me. Yeah. And I loved this, the humor of the, like, about the same motherfucker and the webbing of his mouth go home. Like, all that was very cute, and I think the vibe that we are going to get to see, Frank, and to your point, is just really interesting, and I'm looking forward to it. What I really liked most about it was, I mean, obviously, like, the broader framing of this section, the Daredevil ties, interesting, and this stretch of story, how all these things are going to connect, interesting. I'm most compelled by, like, the, what the hell, Frank, you just hit me with a van, quit your whimpering. Clearly, they're in each other's lives. There's just, like, a rhythm to the way they're interacting that is, like, they are present on the streets of New York together. And so I'm kind of like, oh, it's fascinating to me to think about, especially in this moment of Peter's life in this circumstance where he is spending his time watching videos of the people he misses and they don't remember who he is and trying to, like, introduce himself anew to the people that he longs to be with. that like Frank Castle is a steady and a constant when the rest of his time is like watching TikToks of his girlfriend who doesn't know who he is and going to his beloved aunt's grave. Like Frank being the person who's there in your life when all these other people are missing is fascinating. Frank and Professor Banner. Like these are, you know, a Spider-Man all alone in the world is a dangerous thing, you know. And so like, of course, but like he does have community. It's just like different community. And, of course, from the very beginning, from Tom Holland's very first audition, this idea of, like, we're going to pair Tom Holland's Spidey with an elder statesman of the MCU. Be that Tony Stark, Stephen Strange, Bruce Banner, Frank Castle, you know, so these sort of, like, dad figures for, or, like, older brother, if you prefer, figures for Peter Parker is a hallmark of this franchise. But, and then I love seeing Bruce here. I love that Bruce Banner is now a professor at the fictional Empire State University. As you mentioned, I wrote in the notes, so excited to see that Peter has an Empire State University sweatshirt. Does that mean he's going to school? Again, is this sort of like, does Peter Parker exist as a student at Empire State University? Or did he just put that on in order to go and talk to Bruce Banner in the classroom? That's what I hope. Me too. I hope that Peter, one of our great minds, you know, genuinely a bright kid who loves to learn, is at school studying in college and not just watching TikToks of his best friend and girlfriend talk about how much they love to be at their school. Maybe that's how this ends. Maybe how the movie ends is, like, Peter who realizes that he needs to be Peter Parker as much as he needs to be Spider-Man, like, in roles in school or something like that. That would be great. And maybe the hoodie was just, like, part of him trying to get in there. Yeah, like I said. I feel like it's possible. That would be really funny if he just, like, grabs a hoodie, like, webs a hoodie from somewhere and is just sort of like, I belong here in this classroom. As if you couldn't just, like, walk in wearing your street clothes and also pass as a student. I think it's possible that he's, yeah, that's a version of a disguise for him to infiltrate. But it would be really nice if he looked at it later and was like, no, I can do this. I can just live a life. That would be great. But maybe he's just there taking glasses. What literature classes do we have? Peter Parker is taking. Who knows? Oh, women's literature. Okay, so to recap. Yeah. Yeah. Frank Castle. Bruce Bannon. Oh, man. Jean Grey. Oh, man. Dazzle Ann. Michelle. Ann. Ann. Ann. Ann. And then, according to this trailer, Scorpion. Yeah. Tarantula. Mm-hmm. Boomerang. Tombstone. Yes. Department of Damage Control. Bill. Yeah. and his inner demons these are all the things that Spidey is potentially fighting this season now I'm not that stressed about it in the way that some people are like ah shades of Spider-Man 3 which was again a concern about No Way Home because like some of these characters Boomerang, Tombstone like whatever these can be like very quick montage-y sort of things if we're montaging through four years of Spider-Man as MJ and Ned complete their schooling at MIT, like, there's plenty of room for rando fights. Scorpion, and, you know, I'm a huge fan of Scorpion, personally, of Michael Mando, specifically. So, like, if we get Michael Mando, if we get my Better Calls All fave, like, some more screen time, he seems like, with the mech suit, he has a little bit more going on than everyone else. But, like, you know, I'm not that worried about all the Robus Gallery, but there does seem to be a lot of movie in this movie in general. So, you know, how are you feeling? I'm in a very similar place. Scorpion is exciting because we've been waiting for this return, you know, in a meaningful way since Homecoming. And, like, even just him getting a line in the trailer feels like a little way to signal to us that maybe he has, perhaps it is, like, two scenes, two and a half scenes. But I do agree. I think that, like, Tarantula, Boomerang, Tombstone, possibly even The Hand. that this feels to me like we're going to be, like, getting flashes of the people Spider-Man is fighting. I do think that there have been some interviews that, like, Tombstone is going to be, like, a big, a big, yeah. Tombstone is, like, in the cast, for sure. But I think we're going to move into just some flashes of sequences and then, like, not have any of those characters necessarily feel like they are the primary villain. because I do think that, I just feel like Tramiel Tillman and Damage Control are going to be the oppositional force, the force that Peter and Spider-Man have to contend with if, and the fact that Spider-Man is sitting across from Bill, from Tramiel Tillman's Bill, in his Spider-Man suit, and that indicates perhaps that he is, like, working with or for Damage Control, or has been brought into a shift, and then has to rebel against, maybe, their directive. So is there a way that Jean Grey, whether she's named or not, is positioned as the antagonist until you realize we're not so different, you and I. You're a mutant. I'm going through a mutation. That's what's so likely to be. They're like, help us with this problem. And then he's like, wait, actually, isn't this the person I should help? That would be great. This hot girl? I don't know. All right. That would be great. Okay. So that has been us marinating in the world of the MCU. But the year of Zendaya continues apace. It's not just the Odyssey. Of course, we have Dune Part 3, not to mention the drama. There's a lot of enjoyable Zendaya content this year. Let's go now to our Dune Part 3 trailer medium dive. All right, so quick facts, right? December 18th, 2026 is the release of it. This is just like so our year, and I'm so excited for it. There's just so much going on. I'm thrilled. Same day as Avengers Doomsday, as we've been talking about for a while. Dune won the battle for the IMAX screens, however. So Avengers Doomsday, you're going to have to see it in a different format. The IMAX belongs to Denis Villeneuve. So any feelings on that? Yes. If it had to be one or the other because they were going to both stay on the same day, I'm glad it's Dune. That's a pretty easy call for me. It's honestly genuinely uncomplicated. I think this is, like, I'm hopeful that Doomsday will be good. I think this is, like, pretty embarrassing for the MCU to have, like. Hugely. planted the flag with this big showy countdown clock, peacocked, puffed out the feathers and flexed, like, we're not going to fucking move, you move for us. And then it's like, not only did Dune not move, they got IMAX. It's just embarrassing. So that is a shame. It's not just like, it's not just embarrassing, it's like, I mean, it is. You're not the primary force in pop culture anymore. It's like a diminishment. A huge diminishment. Yeah. Just sort of like, can you imagine? In 2019, an Avengers movie being, you know, unthinkable. Cowed by a literary adaptation. Anyway, okay, so here we go. Dune part three. This is what Denis Villeneuve is calling, quote, the epic conclusion to his Dune saga, even though, obviously, there are many more books. But this is the last book, focused primarily on Paul, and so perhaps this is Denis' Paul saga rather than his, like, Dune saga, if you prefer. Feels like the end of that might be a great time to do a Paul of Fame. at the end of the poll. It's almost like it was the right move all along. And this was always the plan, and there's always been a plan. Maybe if we tattoo our faces and just start going around spreading the word that this was always the plan, then like everyone will bend the knee and believe. Okay, so the source material here is mostly Dune Messiah, but it appears there might be sort of like what I'm calling a smidge smudge bleed of Children of Dune in the mixed year, just based on some casting stuff like that. But here's, and we've been talking about this since the beginning because we are Duneheads but I'm just going to read a quote from Brian Herbert, Frank Herbert's son, who wrote the intro to Dune, in addition to Dune Messiah that I have. So this is in his intro. He said the second novel in the series, Dune Messiah is the second novel, Dune part one and two, those movies adapted one novel, this is the second novel but the third movie. The second novel in the series flipped over the carefully crafted hero myth of Paul Moadib and revealed the dark side of the Messiah phenomenon that appeared to be so glorious in Dune. Many readers didn't want that dose of reality. They couldn't stand the demotion of their beloved charismatic champion. So this is what we've been talking about from the beginning is that Frank Herbert wrote these books as an intentional critique of sort of the one hero narrative, the savior narrative, the Messiah narrative, all that sort of stuff like that. And that is what we are getting now. This is sort of where we were headed all along here in Doom Part 3, Doom Messiah. Denis has been very clear from the beginning to set those expectations about this movie. Hopefully, priming audiences to not be shocked and surprised by what they find here. This is what he said. When they did the big IMAX reveal of the trailer, a bunch of the trades were there, so these quotes are sort of pulled from the deadline write-up and the variety write-up and stuff like that. But here's what he said at that release. He said It will be a very different film, very different, a Doom movie, but with a different tone, with a different rhythm, with a different pace. It's a more action-packed and more tense film, more muscular than the other two, I will say. And it's a movie that takes place many years after the first two films, a bit like the book Dune Messiah. It gives new insight on what happened to Paul Atreides. So there's a time gap. Yeah. 17 years. Right. In the film. So, Spider-Man, four years later. Doom Part 3, 17 years later, where we see Paul dealing, this is Denis again, where we see Paul dealing with the consequences of having too much power and him trying to figure out how to get out of this cycle of violence. And, of course, he's an emperor who can see the future. So he's kind of invisible. 17-year time jump. Anyone freaked out about old-age makeup? Denis doesn't seem that worried about it, right? He's just sort of like, we're not doing a massive aging process on the actors. What do you make of, to the extent that, because, again, let's remind people we're going to do a very, very quick, just a few minutes. We're going to talk about doing a lot over the next few months before we get to watch this movie in December. This will not be the only preview conversation we have. We'll do a few minutes of book spoiler talk at the end, so maybe if you want to save your answer to this. So then, what do you give in? Hey, this is just our cast. We've got Timmy Chalamet and Zendaya and Pew. And, like, he took a challenge that already existed with the time jump and made it bigger. It's 12 years in the text, and he made it 17. What is your – do you have a theory for why? Not outside. I have a very strong theory, but not outside. Okay, we'll come back to it. We will come back to it then. So, yeah, 17 years later is where we find these characters. I will say on your – just the kind of opening note reminder of Frank Herbert's desire to interrogate the idea of the Chosen One, the messiah the savior the figure of lore and prophecy um i i think that and we like you like you you mentioned we've been talking about this across the the coverage of both of the prior films but i that was one of the things that i thought like velniv did so undeniably well was like signal his intention to even just the way he talked about why he wanted to get to adapt this book and think about these as connected like i will be interested to see what the response is when the movie comes out and if there are because there were there was obviously when we covered the second film there was a um there was a little bit of a oh is Paul supposed to be like but it wasn't even it wasn't even there was that yeah then there was also from our beloved colleagues like no the film did not do a good job doing that and I disagree like I agree with you I think the film again we talked about like the Anakin Skywalker murder strut like all this stuff that Paul is doing at the end that feels very like uh-oh coded um but some of our incredibly brilliant media savvy pals who saw the movie did not agree that that the movie paved the way and they thought it was more of like a white savior story and so the movie paved the way would you say i paved the way would you scream it as paul muadiba tradi screamed it to be assembled in the south i'm with you um i'm with you i thought he did a great job, but there are some people who, you know, and so if that is true of our pals, our colleagues who, again, are very media literate and very savvy, very smart, what about the more casual filmgoer who, like, did not spend weeks afterwards, like, arguing about the movie and debating its merits and all this sort of stuff like that to have, like, their book reader pals be like, well, actually, blah, blah, blah. So, like, you know, where will they be as they head into this third movie? I'm so curious to see how that goes when we all watch the film together on IMAX. And then go to a smaller screen to see Avengers Tuesday. Because, yeah, I think, and maybe it's something that will, people's relationship to it will change a little bit as they revisit them, the prior films. Because I think whether it is with Paul directly and Paul and Jessica and those devastating, withering arguments, that's not hope in the way that Paul had to succumb to the defeat, the loss, the active mourning and grieving that he is exuding, that is oozing off of him, that he is outright stating when he makes the decisions that he makes knowing where it is heading. And as we talked about a lot of the time, particularly the way that Chani is deployed in the second film, the despondence and despair to see this thing happening is, I think, really signaling that this is an interrogation and a lament of what happens when people think that you are the Messiah. And if you, for all of the reasons that are explored across these stories, even if you did not want to do this thing, allow yourself to become that, right? To paradise, to the jihad, we'll look at what happens. So let's talk there. So the reality is war, right? The quote we get in the trailer is war feeds on itself, right? And Denise says about this, like, if the first movie was more of a contemplation, like a boy exploring a new world, and the second one being a war movie, this one is more action-packed and tense. We get a lot of, like, the horrors of war imagery inside of this trailer. And so, yeah, to to remind people, part two ends with Paul's instructions to Stilgar, which is like, lead them to paradise, right? Jessica says to the Spice Babe, Aaliyah, inside of her belly at the end of part two, your brother attacks the great houses, the holy war begins. And then earlier in the film, when Paul is explaining to Chani sort of like why he does not want to go south, right? These visions that he's having, he says, nothing's clear, it's only fragments. I'm in the south, I'm following someone, and it triggers a holy war. There are millions and millions of people starving to death because of me. And Gurney said to Paul in that movie, your path leads to war. You know that. So war is coming. What will you do when you feel its breath upon your neck? So here we are, 17 years of war. the person sort of like most embodying that the character most embodying that other than sort of Paul saying it expressly is Javier Bardem as Stilgar as his like sort of main general inside of this effort and we see him fighting and Bardem has talked about like the realities of power and having power for Stilgar like you know he's the number one believer inside of part two and then And this is sort of like, what are the realities of becoming the general for someone who has declared an intergalactic jihad, holy war? What did you make of the way in which sort of like the horrors of war are depicted here in this first trailer? I think that this is as elemental to what Frank Herbert is interested in exploring as what happens when we deify people and allow them to take on me to use the parlance of the text, the godhead, right? to exist as a figure of reverence who is worshipped as a deity, not just a man. And when that manifests in direction and guidance and control and worship and violence, it's the most destructive force in the world. This is one of the things about the time jump, whether it's the 17 years of the film or 12 years of the book, that is really, really brilliant, is that, like, the story is less, we are now going to watch this Holy War, a movie about the Holy War, and more like, to your point, this has been happening. It has wrecked. The wreckage, it dapples every star. There's a line in the text, Paul looking up at the stars, a man must be half mad to imagine he could rule even a teardrop of that volume. The idea of the emperor, a figure who Paul challenged and reviled and then had to be come. Like, this is a tragic story about destruction at scale, right? And so those moments in the trailer where we see, like, the charred hands reaching up from the muddies in the ground, like this idea of just a mass grave and the little glimpses that we get very quickly here, and I'm sure we'll see more in the subsequent trailers. I imagine we'll get two, three trailers ahead of the film of different glimpses like clearly visually displayed to us because of the costuming. This is a different planet. This is a different planet, right? you get a sense very quickly through that visual shorthand of, like, right, we're everywhere. This is not just set here on Erecus or Caledon. Like, the scope of the war is not something that could be contained. You know, there are, like, we don't have to say here what they are, but there are, like, body counts in the book that we get that are in the billions. Upsetting. Billions. It's horrifying. I would say both numbers, not, you know, I don't know what his approval rating is, but I would not give him a high approval rating based on those numbers. Anyway. And, like, the scarring on the characters' faces in the trailer. I thought the posters were the other thing. I mean, these were some of the best movie posters that I have ever seen. They were, I thought, just, like, chilling and amazing. But they also are like, oh, everyone's in a pretty rough place and in pretty rough shape. It really has been going through it. And they signal some things that if you're a book reader, you're like, oh, boy, wow, they just put that on the trailer. Interesting. They just slapped that right in the trailer, right on the poster. I love that they put that in the poster, actually. But I do think it's interesting, like, I want to talk about some of the intentional war movie visuals that Dini is deploying here. But also, like, inside of this trailer, we get shaved head Paul. Yes. And then we see, like, presumably, I would guess, flashback Paul. We get the long curly hair. We get the Atreides uniform. We get the, like, it's not season one because he's got the blue spy size and Jessica's got the tattoos on her faces. But in that scene with tattoos, he's in his season one. I said season one. It's the first film sort of costume and look. So, like, that passage of time is – so, back to the imagery of war. you very smartly denoted this idea of like we see people in like very specific cultural garb that indicates to us that this is a different culture that Sylgar and his troops are wiping out and specifically we get this sort of like East Asian influence look we've got some pieces of armor that look more like samurai coated, Chinese coated it's all like East Asian sort of melange it's very much like what Denis has done with the Fremen of just sort of like let's melange a bunch of cultures into something, which is what Frank Herbert did, frankly, in his text. So I think that like, but I think specifically this sort of like East Asian imagery feeds into when Frank Herbert talked about Dune, he was a Vietnam War correspondent, so he talked a lot about the Vietnam War, and he talked a lot about the charismatic leaders that led us into the Vietnam War. When he talked about the dangers of a charismatic leader, his favorite person to talk about was JFK, actually, because he's like, everyone loves JFK, everyone loves Camelot, but, you know, I have quotes here, I don't need to read the full thing, but he was like, but JFK leads us directly into the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War is one of the worst morasses that we ever found ourselves in. So, like, that was something that was very much on Frank Herbert, Vietnam War correspondent's mind as he is crafting the ongoing Dune narrative. And so when Denis first introduces Baron Harkonnen in Dune Part 1, And he very explicitly, and he has given a lot of interviews about this, invoked the image of Marlon Brando as Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. He was from the start using Vietnam War film imagery inside the story. So when we, inside of the trailer, get Paul Mordy, Atreides, Harkonnen, mopping his bald head, it is both Tarkonnen coded and Colonel Curse Vietnam War coded. And so I'm just like really interested. I think part of my prep for this movie is going to be to sort of like revisit some of these like iconic Vietnam War films to sort of remind myself of the grammar that Denis is, is actively engaging with, but like the charred bodies in the mud that you mentioned, there's just like a lot of moments that I was just sort of like, it's very clear what he is trying to depict here. And obviously he has a lot of options outside of Vietnam War for, like, global atrocities that have happened. But for what directly inspired Frank Herbert, I think this is, like, the conflict to look the closest at, which I think is really interesting. Great plug. Paul's enemies. The more I fight, the more enemies fight back. What do you want to say about sort of what is set up here in terms of the grand conspiracy? It's always a little questionable to me what is and is not a book spoiler. So I'm curious, like, what you think we can say about this sort of conspiracy around Paul Atreides? Hmm. Good question. I think it's okay to say that this is, like, just the kind of premise of this slice of the story. It is the premise. It's the very beginning of the book. It is the premise. Yeah. People aren't happy with Paul. Paul's made a lot of enemies and a lot of mistakes. Yeah. And he knows that, which is just a fascinating place to find this figure. I am so interested to see. So we've been saying for some time since Dune Part II, you know, Dune Messiah is pretty weird. Not as weird as the later books, but pretty weird. And there are a lot of, and, like, how ready are people going to be for that? But also how will Denis Villeneuve, like, present that? because he has a certain style that, like, roots and grounds even these very strange things. So I, just honestly, for example, like, for example, right, he's like, you know what? Yes, is Aaliyah, you know, sort of like a toddler who speaks in full sentences, who stabs the baron in the book. Yes, we're not going to do that. Exactly. Actually, that's a bridge too far. So we'll figure out how to deploy Aaliyah differently. Perfect example. And, like, of course, we have actually the film version. Like, David Lynch was, like, here is this eternal child. And they will say the abomination, you will understand. Yeah. So those kinds of – so when I watched this trailer for the first time and saw this – sarcophagus in the notes. I was going to say coffin, but I think that's a better way to this very notable transport. And I was like, holy fuck, Edgerton, the movie! This is exciting. A Space and Guild Navigator. Is the look going to be exactly like it was in the Lynch film? Clearly not. How will how much, how fish forward versus like humanoid forward will Edgerton be? We'll find out. I don't know. We'll see. We didn't get a good look. Let's talk about this. So, like, we see the sarcophagus, which, like, some people think is something else, but I agree with you. I think this is, there's a tank that a character named Edric, who is a space guild navigator, who started as a human and then just turns out when you marinate yourself in spice goo for a long time, things happen to you. So he's a bit more machine than men now, more fish than men now, perhaps. And so, like, the question of whether or not Edric was going to be in this movie, especially because there has not been any casting announcement for him, And was like the question. Right. And still has it. So we do not have a, you know, we know, for example, of course, that Robert Pattinson is playing Sightail. And I'm very excited for that. I love the character Sightail in the book. And so, like, you know, that's clear. But Edric has not been cast. So is this going to be like a surprise, cool casting, sort of like Anya Taylor-Joy was a surprise as Aaliyah in the second movie? or is this going to be like, you know, a fishpan? I think there is a chance that Edric is basically there in his container as like a way for somebody to say, Edric being here like blocks Paul's ability to know. Because part of Paul's power is like, I have seen it all. Kwezan Tadarok, not sure if you've heard, right? And so like a spacing guild navigator like Edric is a screen that, between Paul's access and awareness to plots against him. I think it's possible that that's sort of, like, basically alluded to and he's present in that way. Certainly, Arpatz, one of the greats here at Sightail, I agree, is a thrill. I think the look is amazing. That's another one, though, where I'm interested in, like, well, okay, he's a face dancer, right? So the Silaxu are here. Great. We got a little glimpse of face dancer Dune prophecy stuff, which I frankly don't remember very much about that show, including exactly how that all went. Nor do I care to. We got some of it. I don't know that that will in any way inform how it goes here. But I'm like, you don't cast Robert Pattinson to not have him be the one in the bulk of his scenes? Sometimes. We'll see. Yeah. He's a face dancer. A face dancer for people who haven't read the books and did not watch Jim Prophecy. That's okay. You don't have to. This is like a partial inspo for George R.R. Martin's Faceless Man. So, like, if you think of Jaqen H'ghar, that's sort of, like, what you could expect from Sightail. The Tlaxo shape-shifting assassins, conspirators, deeply hated in the galaxy in general. And so, like, but Pattinson talking about his character, right? This is his quote. You can't really tell whose side he's on. That's kind of what makes him interesting. I wouldn't say he's a conventional bad guy. He says she might even be a good guy. Who knows? I will also find out when I see the movie. It's an incredibly fun character to play. And the look of it is extraordinary. The look of it is extraordinary, whether he needs the movie or his own thing. But so you've got the Bene Gesserit, who have always, you know, abomination, like, are not pro-Paul. Princess Irulan, who has been in league with the Bene Gesserit from when we first met her. You've got Edric, a Space Guild, Space Guild Navigator, who's like, let the spice flow, baby, and I don't like what Paul's doing. And you've got the Tlaxo-Sightail. So you've got a lot of interesting, fun people. Yeah. Pretty anti-Paul in general. I'm really excited for, you know, something that we talked about a lot. We both love both of the first two films. I mean, I just, I love this franchise. I love these movies. I love all of the Neville Newell Easter pieces. Movies, I think these are incredible. I like two a little bit more than one, but I think they're both great. One of the things we talked about when we covered the first one was how, like, we thought it was astonishingly good and accomplished, but there was less of the kind of, like, political feeder and political intrigue that is present in the book that we love so much. And this is a great way to, through that framing that you shared in those Villeneuve quotes you shared about how he's thinking about the kind of, like, genre that this film exists in and the way this part of the story is being deployed, the idea of, like, the different schools that dominate and drive the course of history in this fictional universe working in concert in this slice of the story. and when can that alignment remain intact against a shared enemy or threat, and when do their ambitions compete with each other is just, like, a really kind of interesting thing as a premise. I'm so curious to see with – the slacks are just really interesting in general as a slice of the story. Very excited about that. Saitel's a great character, I agree. I'm so curious to see how often it is Patton's face versus, like, him shapeshifting and inhabiting another form. It feels like he got, you know, he is, you know, the soundbite that's gone everywhere, right, is, like, the fact that when he was making the drama with Zendaya, the A24 movie that they have that's coming out, and he was like, hey, how can I get one of those dude movies? And then he got a call about being the dude movie. But the casting came out, like, a little late. So, like, that is a question to me. It's just sort of like, if he's not, if his face is not the main face that is being used to his character, but is, like, a fun face. Also, as many people on social media have been having a fun time with, they're like, how weird is this voice going to be? Robert Pattinson, lover of a weird voice. How weird does he get to go with Sightail? You know, the brakes are off on this one. That's all the enemies. The more I fight, the more our enemies fight back. And we get in rapid succession. We see the Bene Gesserit. We see Edric's sarcophagus. We see Sightail. Very exciting. This other quote, I'm doing the best I can to protect my family. Here we have St. Aaliyah of the Night. Anya Taylor-Joy is here, 17 years older, right? So that's part of the 17-year time jump, I think, is to believably cast Anya Taylor-Joy as Aaliyah, 17 years, is actually young for how old that actress is. So, you know, we're doing her best to say. She's 12. Yeah. Yeah, 12-year-old Aaliyah. It's fine. But because, once again, when you get, if you think being marinated in spice goo in a sarcophagus is tough on you, in the womb is even tougher. So Aaliyah comes out with just, like, way too much noise going on in her head. She's just not quite, she's got a lot going on. But she's very, very loyal to Paul. Paul is like her number one. And so we've got Paul's enemies, but Paul's ally is his sister, Aaliyah. And so we get great shots of Anya Taylor-Joy in this trailer. We get her, you know, at war. We get her with like forehead to forehead with Paul in these like really cool lullaby into war chant sort of musicality that goes throughout the trailer Really really incredible Really pulse stuff. And then we get, I think, I think the shot of the trailer is Aaliyah at her temple, what is called Aaliyah Spain. That's Audie Taylor-Joy in these billowing white, you know, diaphanous robes in the wind in front of this giant temple that's been built for Aaliyah that is like looks like the mouth of the sandworm behind her like just is it's like another iconic incredible Dune set piece Dune prophecy TV show wishes sort of like moment but it's just like I mean it is just one of the coolest things I've ever seen and I don't want to spoil this for people who haven't read the books but I just think like all of the language around Aaliyah and what you were talking about before this sort of like myth-making around Paul and his sister. Saint Aaliyah of the Knights. I don't know if they'll call her that because, you know, she didn't stab the Baron with, you know, as a toddler as she does in the book. So I don't know if she'll get her of the Knights designation, but like the Atreides siblings as these like gone king and queen of this empire. I mean, tough for Princess Irulan than she is not the one DFI here. She needs a tough break, that one. Yeah. I just can't wait for all of this. I'm so interested to see how it goes. You know, if people are like, oh, I'm really trying to wrap my mind around what it means to be born with the complete knowledge of everything. Just, you know, a little nugget is that she's like, in the book, you know what, I knew my father the way my mother did. Ah! a little bit of the uh Targaryen energy with uh the stretch of the story in general the Harkonnens are oh my god okay yeah um one of the shots like right next to Aaliyah at her temple at the faint um are all these pilgrims sort of like looking up and they're they're sort of being bathed in water and there's this quote from the book Maudib spends water like a madman Like this idea of just sort of like a raucous desert planet and there's water being like rained down on these people. Fascinating shit. All right. Lady Jessica. My wife. We see Paul say, how did father do this and do it? And she says, your father never started a war. And I'm just like, Lady Jessica. Frankly outrageous. What the fuck are you talking about? Frankly outrageous. Because. Yeah. I saw Doom part one and part two. And we know that Lady Jessica was the one stirring up the prophecy and kicking all this and pushing Paul into this role as a way to protect their family. Right. Like that's her mentality is like, I will engage in this Lisa Malgaib sort of narrative and I will put Paul in place here so that we can be protected and we can be in power. but holy shit it came with a holy war fuck but Jessica being like well you started a war your father didn't is one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard and I love this for Lady Jessica because she is nothing if not a complicated bitch so thank you Lady Jessica for that moment in this trailer I was fascinating and also I just think that like to your point of Aaliyah being like I knew my father like my mother did the way in which Leto our beloved Oscar Isaac is sort of the shadow that looms over the trailer. We'll talk about the Chani-Paul conversation. We see the Dougal signet ring being passed from one person to another, and here Jessica and Paul are talking about him. And I just love that as, like, a, you know, legacy in Paul and all of that is very important to the character, but also as, like, a way to connect a third film to the first film. Like, this key figure who you have not seen since the opening, like, scenes of the first movie is here in everyone's mind still. This is all part of one story that we're telling here. I just think it's like a really, really clever thing. Yeah, I agree. I think that the, that was very notable as a framing device and a through line and just like a takeaway from the trailer. And I think that these reminders of Leda were deployed very effectively in the second film too. You know, that just still my favorite sequence of any of the films to date, That harrowing Paul speech, you know, it starts with that before he is like, I mean, it starts with the quiet moment of taking out that that that ducal ring and saying, you know, this was my father's. I am Paul Muad'Dib, Atreides, Duke of Arrakis, right? And so to root himself, to tie himself to that past as he heads into this unthinkable and yet ordained future and so seen and understood future is one of the really, I think, undeniable elements of a family and a man and a connection. And Paul is thinking in the book a lot, too, of his grandfather present in the first film, the bull, the story, right? So just the legacy of the Atreides family and where this is all has gone and is going. But it's just like this is kind of a stupid thing to say because it's so obvious. But it is like a good reinforcement of the fact that these are – Villeneuve always thought of this as a trilogy. Like, this is an installment that was intended to be presented to us in three parts. To your point from the beginning of, like, this story of Paul and this family and this moment in time, that's not always how franchises come to us anymore. You know, sometimes we get something and then it's like we're going to continue this for fucking ever. Or who knows if you'll get a second one and we decide later you will. Or there's only one Master Commander movie and we're forever like, where's my entire franchise? I deserve it. Okay. I showed this trailer to my pal Diana, who is like a huge June movie fan, but has not read the books. She's also a huge Jason Momoa fan. And her first comment was, Duncan Idaho is here. Didn't he die? Indeed. He sure did, Diana. Very memorably. Yeah. Here's what Denise says about Jason Momoa's return in this movie. Quote, he comes back just at the right moment in the story. And it's a very, very important comeback. Paul is struggling with his identity and having that strong Atreides figure coming back in the past will have a tremendous impact. I will say that he's fully back. I have nothing more to say about this outside of a book spoiler section. Anything you want to say, Mallory Rubin? That's great. Happy to have him here. Yeah, I'm thrilled. We will talk about it a little bit more in the book spoiler section. This is like, sometimes I feel like a real dummy. This is a little bit reminiscent to me, but in a different way of like how I, I was like, I can't believe they're showing everyone Rocky when they're telling us about Project Hail Mary. And it's like, no, of course they are. They want you to know what the movie's about and who's in it. They want you to know that. You're going to get this to a million buddies. Yeah. So, like, I was like, I wouldn't, I guess, have, there was a part of me that wondered would it ever actually be confirmed or revealed that he was going to be in this movie, or would it be, for the people who haven't read the text and don't know, a shock and a surprise. But then I'm like, of course it makes sense to market the movie in part around Jason Momoa being here. So, like, I'm curious to see if future trailers and just even, like, the press circuit around the film reveals more. Make it clear. Yeah, about what exactly is going on here or if that will remain under lock and key until the film itself or until our spoiler section in five minutes. Last and not least, our girl, Shani. Again, once again, here is Zendaya. Legend. This is where we get, if we have a girl, what will we name her? Her name should be Ganima. She would need to be strong like her mother. And what if it's a boy? I would name him Leto. So you'd have the wisdom of his grandfather. Chani's role in this film is such a stark departure from the book, as we mentioned in our coverage of part two. Chani is a sort of docile concubine to Paul at the end of the first book. And it's just sort of like, oh, you're marrying the princess, but you're still going to fuck me. Sounds great. Sign me up. love that for me right so that's a very different place than the pissed off for both political and personal reasons place that we find shawnee you know looking to catch a ride on a sandworm at the end of dude part two and so even book like van called me i think before the midnight boys did their breakdown he's like explained to me and i was like i i don't quite i have theories but i don't have clear answers because I don't quite know how they're going to deploy her here. Denny has said that the story, quote, the story of Paul and Chani, of them struggling with their relationship, having the burden and incredible pressure from the world around them, and Paul having to find a way out of the cycle of violence. There's something about the way their love and the time and the way they are and the way their relationship evolves. That study on the relationship of all characters, that is very personal. To him, the Chani-Paul love story is like, crucial, central, a spine of this story for him. So how he's going to bend and shape his decision to give, to make Chani, I think, a much more interesting character. But then puts her in a place plot-wise where I don't know how she will play the role that she needs to play at the end of the day here. The Zendaya and the Perfumad shots in Part 1 are back here in the Part 3 trailer. It's interesting to reconcile Paul's visions of Shawnee with the time-hardened reality of her that we get, as you mentioned on the poster, and at the end of the trailer when she's sort of, like, ready with a crisp knife on the back, it seems like on the back of a sandworm, like, ready to have a fight, like, that's very sick. But, um, that is sort of, like, what's a flashback and what's not? Yeah. I mean, I don't know, but, um, I'm inclined to use Paul's hair as a marker, though it's possible that he, like, shaves his head midway through, but I'm inclined to think that long, curly hair Timothy is a flashback. Oh, he is. Yeah. And not, and so when we get Yeah. Chani and Paul in the tent talking about their future children and she's got the blue scarf around her head, which in the book means one thing, but in the movie just meant like, I'm in a relationship, right? That's her relationship status is the blue scarf. And then later in part two, she took the blue scarf off her head and started wrapping it around her wrist. And at the end of the trailer here for part three, she's got it wrapped like filthy and wrapped around her wrist with the Chris knife on the back of the sandworm. So like the, the pristine, clean blue, uh, you know, Shawnee and Paul in the tent to me, reads a flashback, but I don't know what it's going to be. I think so as well. Um, I, I agree with you. I think the hair, you know, we do see like Paul with long hair in a suit of war out on the battlefield as well. And so presumably we're going to glimpse many moments in time. across the 17 years. And I don't, I'm curious to see if that is kind of like dappled and dispensed throughout the film, these flashbacks and these moments, in like contextually relevant places and moments, or if it's like if we're caught up on a stretch of time and then we exist in the contemporary time frame. I'm not sure how that will go, but I agree with you that there's something about the hair to track and also just our faces because, you know, there's the scarring, just the kind of weather-worn tattoos on the forehead, the age makeup, all of it. So clearly we are moving through time. I'll save my further thoughts on Chani for the spoiler section as well. But, yeah, I'm so curious to see how much time we spent in the past versus in the present. I think there's a way to just give us glimpses that really fill in that space quite effectively. but especially like with a character who has like visions of past and future you know what I mean like someone especially when the spice is involved we can hop around time uh any way we want to um all right before we get to the book yeah yeah just a couple of quick things before we get to the book spoiler uh section I think just like I should have mentioned this when we were just talking about kind of at the opening like what this story is meant to interrogate and like you know the other thing we love to talk about obviously when we talk about Dune and Paul is prophecy and like this is one of the all-time great, like, prophecy stories. And, you know, there are so many incredible lines across all of the texts about the role of prophecy and the role of vision and carrying this, you know, the oracular vision and the prescience and where it guides people and what the weight of it is and how it is deployed to manipulate and guide the masses. But I think just this idea of, like, it went the way it must is, like, a line from Dune Messiah. Or people call it a power, a gift. It's an affliction. It won't let me leave my life where I found it. Like, this is not a celebration of prophecy, and that is another just true central elemental thing, as part of why I think we both find it, as people who consume so many stories where prophecy is central, so riveting and interesting to see a story that chips away at the way that that can affect and guide you. So that's just really kind of on my mind in the biggest way possible with this movie. I can't wait to see what Villeneuve does with that. the only other thing I'll note before the spoiler section kind of is a blanket thing, and this is often true with adaptations, it's been true with Doom before, there are a number, we talked about Edric already not being we think in the trailer, but not being like listed on the cast or anything, there are a number of key characters in the story who do not appear to be in the movie, and that's just maybe we'll talk about it in a second in a little bit more detail in the spoiler section, but I'm just kind of like that's on my mind with like who will be compressed, you know will certain characters who are in the story just inherit storylines that belong to other figures and stand in for them? Will certain aspects of the story be eliminated? Will they be moved to other figures? You know, there are meaningful people and drivers of the plot who are just, I don't think, in the movie. So that's interesting. Maybe they will be revealed at a certain point to be in the movie, but currently it looks like some major characters are not in the movie. So that's fascinating. I doubt it. Like, Denny has proven himself as someone who's, like, willing to make large adaptive changes in the first two movies. So I am inclined to think that, like, he's, he, especially with something that is as, like, murky in some places as Dune Messiah, I think he's just sort of like, let's, let's, and I trust him. You know, like, there's a lot of people who make big adaptive changes where I'm like, come on, buddy, there's first material rules. But Denis has absolutely proven himself to understand what is at the core and the heart of the messaging of this story. And so I feel, like, really good about whatever he wants to do. I think there's a real, there's a pretty, there's a way certainly here to drive the spirit of it and maintain the spirit of it while putting, you know, this thing as someone did here with this person. I'm very intrigued, but I agree. I'm confident. Now it's time for book spoilers. It's not going to be like a, yeah, it's not going to be a huge lengthy section, but we just wanted to like touch on a few things. So book spoilers, get the heck out of here if you don't want to learn some things. There's some big, big things to talk about. So, bye. Bye. Bye. Did you leave? Bye. All right. So, I have a couple things listed here, but do you want to start with what you were alluding to, like the characters who are... I mean, there are a bunch, obviously, but Korba and Bijaz in particular not being in the story is fascinating, given... I think the Fremen betrayal, like the idea of the conspiracy, but also the people who are turning against Paul, like the inside the house aspect of Paul. You know, and ultimately the story ends with Paul, with the Fremen embracing Paul and protecting his children. And, you know, when he wanders off into the desert, right, it is like a cementing, actually, of his place among those people. But there are a lot of rocky bits of business along the way. And I think like Korba as a figure who, the treachery takes form in so many different places and ways. So I'm curious if that is, maybe this can connect to some of the Chani talk. I think at the end of the Dune part two, like we did a little spoiler section at the end of the part two movie pod, and I think we were like, wait, so is Chani going to turn on ball? Is that a thing that's going to happen? Which, as you noted, is not what happens in the book. But does she actually absorb some of the Fremen Treachery plot? Does Stilgar absorb some of it, or does it go to Chani? Where do you think that is going? I think it could be both and I really like this idea of like Chani as a sort of like to put a more personal face on the side of the Fremen rebellion whether or not she will like reconcile with Paul at some point but this brings me to the 17 years later question and the children right because so Chani needs to be in Paul's life for the book to work because they have children who are important for the future of the story, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. This was a common theory at the end of Part 2, and I am all the more convinced that she was already pregnant at the end of Part 2 because they have cast Nicole Wolf Momoa, Jason Momoa's kid, and Ida Brooke as Paul and Johnny's kids, and they are 16-ish years old. So if I like this idea that she's had the kids in secrecy and Paul does not know that they exist and they are already like teenagers out in the world, like brought up with a Fremen or something like that. Do you think that that's possible? I would have. No. Maybe. I think anything's possible. And you always introduce theories that I have never even considered that intrigue me. I would have a hard time thinking about how that would work because so much of Paul's, like, there's everything with the Holy War with the visions and Paul's role in it, but there's so much of the vision-centric stretch of the Dune Messiah plot is driven around the children. And China's death. Yeah, dying. Right, and then there's, like, oh, shit, we had two of them? Twist. And so, like, he doesn't see everything, and maybe that's enough of a, that is, to your larger point, I think, the kind of, like, little crack that Villeneuve is interested in taking and blowing open, being like, oh, maybe if Paul didn't know that there was a second baby and is surprised by that in the book, is there enough there for me to play with today? Could he be surprised about both of them? There is another. There is another. But, like, I guess, I don't know. He's perseverating over. And also the fact that he is, like, his awareness of them feels important to me because it, you know what? I'm in real time. I'm twisting myself into a pretzel here because I was going to say his awareness of them feels crucial because of the weight of that, right? That he's like, he knows Shani's going to die in childbirth, and it is like, when he gets to the end and he's like... Do you think it's possible he doesn't want to do this because George Lucas lifted that and gave it to Anakin and Padme, and then he's like, I don't want to run back Anakin and Padme, even though they were inspired by... It's entirely possible. Paul and Shani. Maybe. I don't think he wants to have his version of Shani die in childbirth. I agree. I agree. I'm with you that I think he is going to change that. She's not going to die. I actually think that would be quite odd and surprising if that was maintained from text to screen based on the other changes. I also agree with you. It seems most likely to me. I think it's possible that the casting to your children of Dune incorporation point is basically like at the end, we see these grown kids as like a little flash to the future. story. A hundred percent. Could be that. That's a possible, that it's them at the end or them in visions or something like that, that they are babies in this. Yes. And then are teens in the very end. Yeah. But I think I agree that they were already born. I like that, too. I think it feels to me like the possibility of, based on the way they're presented in the trailer talking about that, that she's pregnant already or right away and that they have the kids. The part that I'm having a harder time wrapping my mind around is him not knowing. I don't know that that would. And the other reason that I don't, I can't wrap my mind around that, though, again, that would be really interesting, is, like, because so much of the friction with Irulan is that she is, like, I am supposed to, let me birth your heir. Yeah. And he won't, right? And he won't take her into his bed. He won't fuck her. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, she's feeding. But I don't mind her having a, I don't mind her having a different motivation if he's, like, let's just say he doesn't want to have sex with her anyway. Sure. Not just like, not because I prefer my concubine, but like, I was in love with someone else and this is a purely political marriage. Like, I don't want to have sex with you. I don't want, you know. Oh, no, for sure. I think from the airline perspective, that could go all sorts of ways. I just mean more like Paul not knowing about the kids. I kind of like him. He's so protective of his relationship with Chani. Now, if he has squandered that and the one of the cost is not knowing actually about this family, that would be kind of interesting to mine. but the idea that he is like this is just this thing that you know i will love you for as long as i breathe that he said in the second movie like knowing and you need to protect her and them from the forces inside the house but but that was a different chani you know what i mean like i believe in the paul and chani love story i believe that even if she is like on the preb and opposition has had his kids in secret they're 16 or 17 or whatever like if even if all of that is true I still think there's going to be, like, some kind of Paul and Shani reconciliation, whether that's him, like, again, this is just, like, me wildly theorizing. Whether that's him, like, discovering that the kids exist or, like, you know, anything like that. Her discovering that he has been protecting them somehow. Right. But here's a hole in my theory, which is that some people interpreted the way that Zendaya talks about Florence Pugh in part three as indicating that they have several scenes together. And that would mean that Chani would have to be at your palace in theory or whatever. But I read those quotes and I don't know that I have the same interpretation. I think she was just talking about how great Florence Pugh is in the movie. I don't know. Well, I wonder if these ideas could all connect because I'm struggling because Paul's awareness of the pregnancy and of the offspring is so central to the story. I'm struggling to think about him not being aware of that. However, to the earlier point of, like, Edric and blocking Paul's awareness of the conspiracy, and that is so central, right? If Chani is in cahoots, if Chani is a part of the conspiracy, then in theory there could be a shielding. That could be a way to, because I don't see how he wouldn't know otherwise. But if she's part of the conspiracy and has that proximity to Edric, just like Irulan goes back to the palace in the books and is like. but he does know. He knows something's up. Yeah, this is fascinating. I don't know what changes you can make. There's a quote in the trailer, I'm doing the best I can to protect my family, which I deployed in the section where we talked about Aaliyah, but, like, obviously, that could also be him talking about Chani or talking about the kids or whatever the case may be, but, okay. So that's the Chani question. Again, I don't know the answer, but these are the thoughts that I'm having. Will we still get to see him see through the eyes of a newborn infant in his cradle after he's been blinded? I hope so. One can only help. Before we get to the blinding, let's talk about Golas. So in case you're listening to this and you haven't read the book, Duncan Idaho. This is not Duncan Idaho, though it also is. It's a character called Hate, H-A-Y-T. And he's what's known as a Gola, which is essentially like a clone. And basically, as part of this conspiracy against Paul, he has been created to, in a sort of Manchurian candidate-esque way, to sort of infiltrate the Atreides family, and then, when triggered, take Paul out. and also that his presence, his very presence there is meant to confuse, confound, emotionally compromise both Paul and Aaliyah. Talk about us. So, I mean, are they going to do that? Are they going to do the junk and Aaliyah? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. here's something I feel confident they won't do is Aaliyah training in the nude and then Paul walking in and being like what's up pretty great so but that is and isn't Duncan Idaho we do get a shot in the trailer of Paul and Duncan fighting and I'm pretty in the like sparring and I'm pretty sure that this is the moment in the book where basically the Gola that is hate again H-A-Y-T breaks through his programming. Like, he's got this contradicting, there's, like, the love that Duncan Idaho, that is molecularly implanted into the DNA of Duncan Idaho, and the love he has for Paul versus the instructions that he has been given to hurt Paul. And basically, he overcomes his Minchurian candidate-esque programming and, like, breaks, is the first goal in history to sort of like break out of that control. So that is, again, we talked about Gola the bit when we covered Day Prophecy, a show that I would prefer to forget, but that's what's going on here. This is a clone. Will they say that in the media tour? I don't know. Or will they continue to play coy? It's a great question. I should say, to go back to the, once again, studying, parsing media appearances for clues, going back to the children question, at the premiere of the trailer, Zendaya was asked if Chani and Paul are having kids in the film. And she avoided answering the question by laughing and pointing at Bill Nave and saying, over to you, director. So, like... But then the whole trailer is about, like, the kids they're going to have. It's just... So, it's hard to make movies in the internet era. I don't envy anyone who has to go out and do these press doors and not... How would they know what they can say or not? It's wild. I am thrilled that we're in the Gola, Hey, Duncan era. And this is, like, another one where I'm curious to see, especially because a character, like, if B-Jaws is not in the movie, is there another path? Like, are they interested in the movie and kind of examining and preserving the, like, the last little phase of the Gola plot, which is, like, okay. um he taps back into Duncan and you know Paul let me back up one of the great things about just the presence of of the go-on period is that from the beginning right away it's just like out on front street are you here to kill me is that why they yeah is that why they did this thing right you must surely you are here to take me down and then he just kind of like you probably should like not let me be around you you should get rid of me but like paul is it's the face of his best friend so like he wants to be near him and this kind of constant um quagmire of contradictions and dissonance is like so riveting they're all acknowledging it constantly alia and hate have a very interesting um draw to each other and relationship but there's that element too because you noted earlier like a alia and paul it's like you're my number one you're my number one so she wants to protect him they're all afraid of what hate might do and so when you build toward that moment of paul like who has foreseen so much and yet there are moments and even his visions as they're unfurling in real time in front of him where he's like wait that you weren't here you weren't here oh this little it's all happening it's here you said that line you said that word but these little things are different and so there are these aspects of him even though he is certain that he's marching toward the path that he has seen laid out in front of him where he's like could it go a different way and then at the end of course it's like should I have ensured it went a different way um hey like just something like him saying young master and Paul's like wait you call me something Duncan would have called me like is it you Duncan is it you and so one of the things I'm curious to see if Villeneuve is interested in is it just about having him here to pull to go for the kill move and then he's pulled out of the um the the Thalaxu, I'm your weapon, I'm your pawn, coding and programming, and it just becomes Duncan again, and he and Paul are on each other's side, and that's a win for them and a loss for everyone else, and that's where it ends in the movie? Or do they then do the other element of it of, like, part of the plot, right, part of the Thalaxu plot, part of what they're interested in is, no matter what, they have a contingency. If this is what happens, they didn't lose from their perspective. They won because it proves that, to your point, the first gola in history who actually, like, communed again with his prior form, then they can do that, right? So it's like, okay, I can, I'm good. You can just keep making me again, and I'm never at jeopardy. If he had killed Paul, then their plan is to just go to Alea and say, do you want us to make a gola out of Paul, right? They offer to Paul, they're like, do you want us to make your beloved a gola? And Paul is, of course, tempted because how could he not be? But then also he knows that if he does that, he'll be in their debt forever and they'll control him. So, like, I'm curious if that aspect of the goal of plot is something that is going to be explored at all or if it really will just be, you're wearing the face of my best friend, but I know you're here to kill me. And then you tried to and then you didn't, which would be still pretty great in the movie and probably more contained. I think also if Chani is like a sort of mirror character to that, if there's like if Chani is the face of the Fremen revolution or anything like that, or as part of the conspiracy, this idea of like Villeneuve really underlining their love story and just sort of like what can transcend or what can reach, you know, a Paul who's gone to the lengths that he's gone to. and can he return to himself in some way because of the love of a Duncan Idaho or a Chani or whatever the case might be. Right. Last but not least, let's talk about stone burning. Dude, so they just tweeted out the blindness on the poster. They just did it. Yeah. Well, I don't think people know what they're looking at if they don't know what they're looking at. No, they don't. But, like, he's got a bunch of scarring around his eyes in the poster, which is, like, very cool. Yeah. In the trailer, we get this, like, flash of light, which everyone is like, okay, that's the moment, the stone burner moment. That Paul Atreides loses his sight. Yeah. But then, again, if you're listening to the spoiler section but you haven't read the book, don't worry. Because of his fucking, like, vision ability, he's like, you don't have to get rid of me. I can still see everything because I got the spice mine. Here's a quote from the book. As he looked at the troopers beginning to stand up around him, the mist on Paul's eyes faded into darkness. He summoned up his oracular vision of these moments then, turned and strode along the track that, capital T, time had carved for him, fitting himself into the vision so tightly that it could not escape. He felt himself grow aware of this place as a multitudinous possession, reality welded to prediction. I mean, great shot. End quote. Frank Herbert, cooking. But this idea of, like, what he sees now is what he has seen. And so it's sort of, like, to your point, that idea of, like, prediction and prophecy becoming reality because it's the only sight he has left because he has lost his physical sight. We're going to be feasting. I'm very excited for how this is depicted visually by Denis Villeneuve. Really, really great opportunity for all of that. But, yeah, that's just in the trailer and on the poster if you know what you're looking for. Do you think you're going to move this up? This is, like, pretty late in the book, the Stoneburner sequence. I wonder if this will happen sooner. I don't. Maybe, but that scarring that we see on the poster is not on him anywhere else in the trailer. So I don't know if that will. Maybe it's, like, the start of the third act or something. That would feel right. Yeah. God. I can't wait for the third movie. I'm so excited. Okay. So basically the structure of the pod today was, like, moving through layers of enthusiasm. and it's like daredevil born again spider-man baby day just a dune world through space spidey dune dune i'm so excited all right i had so much fun like looking at this dude trailer and thinking about and like going into the book for quotes and stuff like that just like this is our shit i'm so excited um anything else you want to say before we call it a day no i just can't wait i mean we celebrated in the hype draft like how many things we had to look forward to and will everything be great who knows but project hill mary being good really felt like a you know what it is in fact going to be our year so it might be i can't wait i'm thrilled is the thing you have the most question marks about right now like avengers doomsday is that in terms of whether it's actually good oh boy um you know i i do like everyone have some mando Mando Groko question, so I really hope that it's fun. I hope that for you. I hope that Tuesday will be good, but I don't know. Why didn't they just move that a few weeks? What a own goal. Jesus. What a mess. All right. Thank you to our Avengers who have assembled here today, to CT, to Dave Cornett, to Carlos Chiraboga, to Arjuna Ramgapal, to Jomian Dineron, to Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson and to me and we'll see you next week bye