Oprah

This message comes from The Thrive Center. Their podcast, With and For, hosted by Dr. Pam King, explores big questions about meaning and purpose through conversations that bring psychology and spiritual wisdom together. Follow With and For wherever you're listening. Are you good at being alone? Oh my God, I'm a master at it. Tell me more. That's a card design for me. I learned as a child how to be alone and how to feel full alone because there wasn't anybody. So there's no longing for something else other than what I actually had. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one and to flip one question back on me. My guest today is Oprah Winfrey. The reason why I'm so empathetic and have such understanding and curiosity is because, wow, that happened to me too. I lived through that. These days, everyone is all about intimacy and authenticity. But this is what Oprah was all about way back starting in the 1980s. She let her audience in on some of the most personal parts of her life, and it changed media forever. Along the way, she inspired generations of young girls to find their own voice, myself included. Oprah's got a new book out that's called Enough, Your Health, Your Weight, and What It's Like to Be Free. She's written it with Dr. Anya Yastroboff. And it is my huge pleasure to welcome Oprah Winfrey to Wildcard. Wildcard. Yay, Rachel. Wildcard. Here we are, girl. Oh, my God. This is happening. So this is like building a car in front of Henry Ford, who invented cars. I just have to say. I mean, truly, my intro is truthful. You invented modern interviewing. I mean, you really did. Well, as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh, yeah, I think we did. We actually did do that. I don't sit around thinking about, oh, what we did or what you've accomplished. But yes, when I started, there wasn't the level of certainly nobody was being themselves. It was all television. And you put on a face for television and you go on television. You act like you own TV. And I think what our show did and before our show, who was the whose shoulders I stand on is Phil Donahue. And I actually stopped watching Phil Donahue when I became a talk show host myself because I found myself imitating him. Right. You had to do your own thing. And I had to do my own thing. Yeah. So I stopped watching Phil when I started doing it myself. It worked out. It worked out for me. So pleased for you. So we're going to play this game. Let's do it. All right. First round is memories. Oprah, one, two, or three? Two. Two. Right in the middle. Okay. Okay. Were you intimidated or excited about leaving your parents' house? Oh, 100% excited. Yeah? Yes. I remember leaving at 19, and I was leaving because I had a boyfriend. And my father was like, no 25-year-old is going to be coming in this house, and no 25-year-old just wants to go to the park and feed the ducks because the boyfriend before that was my age, 16. And this boyfriend was 25. And this boyfriend was 25. Older guy. And I left my father's house because I wanted to be able to spend time with a boyfriend and not have to be home by 11 o'clock. And also because I was already an anchor woman on television and having to be home by 11 o'clock. I did the 10 o'clock news. When you were 19? Yes. I did the 10 o'clock news when I was 19. And my father was like, you have to be home by 11. Dad, the news isn't over to 1030. I can't even get a car to get home. Yeah, you give you 30 minutes to get home. So, yes, I was really excited to leave home. You were obviously, I mean, you had success young in your life. Yes. Did you feel prepared, though, to be an adult at such a young age? I felt, I didn't, you know what, I got immediately in debt because I ended up with a credit card And I ended up with $1,800 worth of debt. And I remember taking out a consolidation loan at the First National Bank because I didn't know how I was ever going to get myself out of $1,800 worth of debt. Because with the interest payments, and I was only making like $100 a week. So the bottom line is, yeah, I felt prepared. I've never felt like an imposter anywhere, ever. And the reason is, is because my faith is so strong. I was raised to believe that I was God's child from the time that I was a little girl. I remember standing on the back porch watching my grandmother because, y'all, I was raised like Abraham Lincoln, okay? So when I go to speak at schools, which I don't do so much anymore, but I remember the first time I was speaking at a school and the third grader said, Did you know Abraham Lincoln? And I said, No, but I was raised like him. So I understand why my story feels like Abraham Lincoln. No running water, raised with no running water, no electricity, outhouse, literally a bedpan that I would have to empty in the morning after, you know, my grandmother and I would, you know, use if we would go to the bathroom overnight. And so growing up in a rural environment, I remember watching my grandmother boiling clothes, because no washing machine, obviously, no electricity, boiling clothes. She was a domestic worker, and she was doing these sheets in the backyard for this white family that she worked for. And I remember her saying to me, Oprah Gail, you better watch me now, because one day you're going to have to learn how to do this for yourself. and I distinctly remember the feeling that no I won't. I remember it was a feeling that came over me. No I won't. Watching her with the moisture from her breath and the cold and pulling the sheets out of this big pot, I thought this will not be my life and I don't know how I knew that. How old were you again? I was between four and five because I left when I was six. But I don't know how I knew that. I just could feel inside myself that this is not going to be my life. And because by that time I'd already been raised in the church by my grandmother who was really strict religiously. And I didn't know that I had a father or mother other than God. So I was told that God is your father. So I thought Jesus was my brother. I mean, and if Jesus is your brother. Then you can do anything. The sky's the limit. The sky's the limit. So when I moved from my grandmother, after my grandmother became ill, I was sent to Milwaukee to live with my mother, whom I did not know. Right. And she had moved to Milwaukee as a part of what I now know was the Great Migration, people looking for a better life there. but and she was also a domestic worker and living in rooming with this woman who was a very light skinned black woman and uh i think i'm healed from it but my eyes still water when i tell the story um very light skinned black woman who saw the color of my skin and told my mother that i was not allowed to come in the house. And I was six years old, and it was the first night away from home. And they, including my mother, made me sleep on this little porch that was the entryway to the house. And I also knew, having never experienced racism before, I knew instantly it was because of the color of my skin. Which must have seemed confusing if you were a child of God, because How is this happening? How is this happening? Right, right. And so what got me through it, though, Rachel, was I would pray to God to protect me. I was very scared out there on that little porch and also had never slept alone. I'd always slept with my grandmother. And I couldn't believe that my mother didn't say, this is my daughter and she has to come in with me. so it was me and God and I created this angel named Melinda that was protecting me that was standing out on the porch and protecting me so it was all in my imagination but I would pray to God because I could see that I felt like I was in danger but the only thing that was going to really save me was the protection of something bigger than myself and so that feeling of faithfulness has been with me my whole life. And although my vision and certainly belief about what God is and what the universe is has been magnified, and I know that God is in all and all people and all religions and all things, it's still the thing that has been the most profound guiding force in my life. And so therefore, I walk into a room just as cool as you please, and to a man the fellows either stand or fall down on their knees. And then he starts swarming all around me like a hive of honeybees. And I say, it must be the fire in my eyes, the flash of my teeth, the swing of my waist, the joy in my feast, because I'm a woman, phenomenally phenomenal woman. That is Maya Angelou. So I just feel like also, as Maya said in one of her poems called Poem to My Grandmother, I come as one but I stand as 10,000. And so I never walk into any space where I've been the only woman, I've been the only black person within a 500-mile radius. I never feel like I don't belong there because I'm walking in with all the people who've prayed me up and wished for a better day. And I come with not just my mind and body, but I come with the spiritual forces that are also living inside, around, above, and through me. We're done. Oprah has answered all the questions in the wild card deck after the first one. That was good. So the bottom line is you were prepared as all get out to leave your parents' house. I was prepared to leave my parents' house. I wanted to so much. Next three cards. One, two, or three. Three. One, two, three. Where would you go when you wanted to feel safe as a kid? Oh. Depending on what stage I was in. So if I was at my grandmother's house, there was a little side porch. There was a swing on the porch, and then there was a hydrangea bush, and there was a little space between the hydrangea bush and the house where the chickens would go. The chickens would go in there sometimes. And it was just a little, little, little, little, little tiny space. and if it was thundering and lightning or if I felt unsafe, that's where I would go. I would go there and I would hide. Yeah, with the chickens. Really? Mm-hmm. Were they friendly? I mean, I know some chickens and they can be sort of nasty. Well, our chickens were really very friendly because, you know, you're feeding the chickens every day. The chickens get to know you. Yeah. The chickens, you know. You're right. The chickens I've been around, I've been like a stranger. I've been the interlooper. You've been a stranger to the chickens. I was no stranger to the chickens. The chickens knew me. The chickens were my first pets. I got it. Got it. I got it. Okay, last one in this round. I think it's funny. Those are strange chickens. Yeah, that's right. Yours were friends. Friendly chickens. One, two, one, three. One. When have you felt the most homesick? I felt the most homesick just recently. I was way in Australia. and my dog Sadie, who's 17, who had just turned 17, developed a bladder infection and also went into kidney failure. And I thought she was going to pass. And I told the folks who were helping to take care of her for me, just keep her alive until I get there. And so I literally got off the stage speaking in Australia and flew home. But every day I was like getting FaceTimes and she won't get out of bed. And she won't. I was just hold on, hold on, hold on. So that's the most homesick I've ever felt. She's okay now? She's okay now. Yes. And now we have to give her injections every day. But I've done this before. I've had 21 dogs. What? Sadie is my 21st dog. Wow. So I've had 20. My dad didn't want me having dogs growing up. And so I made up for it. Oh, that's right. So you left. Did you have a dog when you were 19? Yeah. When you first walked out of the house, you're like, I'm getting my own apartment. And I got my first dog. And I got an Afghan hound. Oh, really? Yes. I needed an Afghan hound like I needed a hole in my foot. I mean, the worst possible dog for me to get is my first dog. Shed it. It's big. Listen. And they're not that smart. But they were beautiful. So if you're in the car with the window down, their hair, they look like Farrah Palsett. So I've had 21 dogs. What do dogs teach you about loving, caretaking? Well, they teach me a lot about spirit. They've taught me a lot about spirit because each one of them, as they've passed, I feel the essence of their spirit in different ways. And some have big ones and some have little ones. Some have teeny tiny little spirits and some have bigger spirits. I mean, I had a dog, Golden Retriever, White Cream Golden Retriever named Luke who passed away in 2018. I would have married Luke. I would have married Luke. You would have married that dog. That dog. that dog. I still, I love that dog. And I'm so sorry that I didn't clone that dog because at the time people were cloning their dogs and I'm like, who clones their dogs? And now every time I see his picture, I'm like, I should have cloned you. I feel like you do. I feel like if anyone's going to clone a dog, I mean, I feel like you could clone a dog. I know. But at the time it was like, no, but now I think I would do it. Yeah. But that has been important to you as, as your recipe for what home is to always have like an animal. Well, home for me is having, I don know if one of the cards is going to say this so I don want to answer it Go for it My favorite memory in life is walking through the woods I had 11 dogs at one time And I had a farm in Indiana that was just an hour and 20-minute drive from the show in Chicago. So every Thursday I'd get in the car and drive down there. And I remember walking through the woods with 11 of my dogs at one time. And I remember thinking, this is the happiest I've ever been. Surrounded in the woods, you're hearing the birds, and all the dogs. There are four still with me, and the rest of them are scattered. The other seven are scattered, but walking in the woods with my dogs. Dogs teach me a lot about patience and presence. They're always just 100% present with whatever's happening in front of them. So let's talk about the book. Enough is what it's called, your health, your weight, and what it's like to be free. What are you free from? Describe what that is. Number one, I'm free from food noise. I didn't know, and if you don't have obesity or never had an issue with your weight, you're listening to us, you don't know what I'm talking about. But for those of us who've lived with chronic obesity, meaning our body holds on to more fat than is necessary because of our biology and because of the environment, you won't know what I'm talking about. But food noises, I would have, let's say I'd have a piece of toast and I'd put jam on that toast and I'd be thinking about how many calories is in the jam. Or if I put honey on that toast, I'm thinking, oh, teaspoon of honey, that's going to be 100. Or if I had butter, that's going to be another 100. Okay, if I now have a piece of bacon, that's going to be 30. If I can do a piece of bacon, that's going to be 30. Are you doing that every day? I'm doing that every day. Oh, I just ate that. Now, how long is it going to take me to work that off? oh, if I eat that, now I can't eat lunch. If I eat lunch, then I can't have any more bread because I already had the bread. Right, so I'm tired hearing you tick that off. I can't imagine living it all the time. Yeah, okay, Thanksgiving's coming. Oh, my God, how much food's going to be there? Okay, I'm only going to eat the dressing. I'm not going to eat the mashed potatoes, but maybe I can have the scallop potatoes. And I'm thinking this two weeks before Thanksgiving. Okay, so the food noise, for those of you who've never experienced it, but those of you who do, it's just the constant running in your head. What you ate, how much you ate, you shouldn't have eaten it, how much is it going to take me to work it off, how much, what am I going to eat later on? It's not the same, but it's like I reframed my relationship with alcohol about a year ago, and there's something about that that resonates with me of like, oh, if I'm going to drink two drinks tonight, then tomorrow night I better not drink at all, but I really want to because I got this birthday party, and then I need to plan to sleep longer, and it just takes up real estate in your head. Rachel, I find this incredible that you're mentioning this because yesterday I get a call, I get a text from someone I've known for a long time who said, I saw you with Jane Pauley talking about the food noise. And he said, oh, I've experienced the same thing because I've been sober for three years. And so the alcohol noise is a real thing. And I said, oh, gee, I never thought about alcohol noise. But of course, and then the person explained, It's the, should I have the drink? Should it be two drinks? Can I have the drink? The constant negotiation. The constant negotiation. Of course, there would be alcohol noise because of alcoholism. And so- So you're free from that now. Free from that. That's what I'm free from. I'm free from, and that has left just a clean space for so many other things to flow in and flow through. So how'd you get there? And I got there when I was doing an interview and interviewing a panel of doctors. And someone said on the panel, at the time I was struggling with my weight, although I was always struggling with my weight. But at the time I was thinking, okay, God, now I'm at 175 and I'm hiking and I'm doing everything I can. And then this doctor said, obesity is a disease. And I went, what? Obesity is a disease? How long have we known that? And how do we know that? And tell me why it is a disease. And so understanding that obesity is a chronic condition that many people throughout the world have. Also, many people do not. And so they can work out and eat healthily and change the set point or enough point, as Dr. Anya likes to call it, in their brain. And they're fine. I have friends who can do that. I am not one of those people. And you know you're not one of those people if you've done it and then you go back to – your body wants to keep going back. For me, the weight is 211 pounds. So when I pulled out the wagon of fat in 1988, I was – Wagon of fat on the Oprah Winfrey show, 67 pounds. You wheeled it out there to represent this massive weight loss. When I did that thing, I was 211 pounds. When I did my first marathon, I was 211 pounds. When I did every time – Before you lost the weight, you were 211 pounds. Yeah, before I lost the weight to 211 pounds. Then I gained the weight back and then went back to 211 pounds and then did a marathon. And then I went back to 220 pounds. I mean, it's just my body is always trying to get between 211 and 220, 218. So now with the help of this new revolutionary set of medications. So I'm free from that. Yeah, they're revolutionary because it changes the set point in your body. Everybody calls them weight loss drugs, and you do lose weight. But really, it is changing the set point in your brain so that your brain isn't trying to get to 211. Your brain maybe is trying to get to 160 or 145 or whatever the set point is for you depending upon the dosage that you're taking. And you're mirroring that with consistent exercise. Well, not only am I mirroring it with exercise, Rachel, it actually has made a difference in the way I feel about exercising. because now I can't believe it. I'm going to the gym in the rain. I'm going to the gym in the rain. I'm the first one in the gym. I am the one who is like, okay, let's see if we can go harder. Let's see if we can do more. And I never would have, I don't even recognize myself. I don't recognize it because I'm a person who's always said, I just hate exercise. So it's changed the way I feel inside my body and the way my body feels moving. So because I can be more successful with the exercise, I can do more, I can do more, I can do more, I can strengthen more. So the freedom comes from not having the food noise and the freedom comes from finally recognizing that all these years that I blamed myself because I didn't have the willpower. I couldn't, you know, I was like, I fasted for four months. I didn't put one morsel of food in my body. When I did that wagon of fat, I didn't eat for four months. So I thought I'd proven that I have the discipline. I've proven that I have the will. Why does the weight keep coming back? It keeps coming back because that is my biology. I couldn't believe in the book when you wrote this memory. It wasn't just the guilt you heaped on yourself. People were mean. People were mean. You did this interview. It was your first interview on The Tonight Show. Joan Rivers sat in as the guest host. And she said on national TV that you needed to lose 15 pounds and you needed to do it now and you couldn't come back to the show till you did. Yeah, she did. That is wild. So how'd you gain the weight? I ate a lot. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You said 50 pounds. You shouldn't let that happen to you. You're very pretty. You know what? No, I don't want to hear. Let me tell you this. Let me tell you something. Pretty girl and you're single. You must lose the weight. But what is wilder? I wasn't even upset with her about it. I wasn't even upset with her about it. Because you agreed? I felt such shame about it that I thought, well, she has told me. I thought she was doing me a favor. Like, she's going to let me come back if I lose the 15 minutes. Oh, God. I didn't think, how dare you speak to me that way. I thought, wow, okay. So it finally caught up with me. It was shame that I already felt for myself. So it didn't make me feel any kind of way toward her. So just affirming what you already knew. Affirming what I already knew. I thought I looked pretty good that night, though, because I bought my Stuart Weitzman shoes and I got the dress made and my hair done and it's the night show. And then I thought, oh, God, it still didn't cover up the fact that I'm fat. This was tied to your public identity, though, from the beginning. Like in your first episode, you know, you said, I'm Oprah Winfrey. This is the Oprah Winfrey Show. And you introduced this segment by talking about how your thighs were always problematic to you. That clearly had been a choice, though. You've been open about regrets around what you saw as your promulgation of extreme diet culture. Yeah. I have regrets about it, but I also feel—this is what I feel. I feel like I contributed to it because I was at the center of it. I mean, I was living in a world where every single week there was a tabloid story about my weight. And all the comedians just used me as sort of like their punching bag. And, you know, I was a joke for David Letterman for a whole year. He used to call me Mrs. Butterworth. And, you know, so I just felt like I was in the middle of it and had to deal with it as best as I could. And I was always frustrated about it. No matter what I looked like or where I was, I can look at any picture and tell you what my weight is. There was a big body positivity movement. Did you wish that you could just be like, I'm okay, this is who I am. And I would have people on talking about it and I would say, God, I wish I could feel that way. I wish I could feel that way. I wish I could feel like it's okay. But I think it's really hard to feel okay when everything in society is telling you something's wrong, including on The Tonight Show, including every tabloid, including every magazine, including everywhere you look. Yeah. What's the number one thing you want people to take away from this? Number one thing I want people to take away from the book Enough is number one, you are enough. And you don't have to take a GLP-1, but if you choose to take a GLP-1, And what the GLP-1s do is allow you to feel full enough without overeating. Number two thing I want people to realize is you don't overeat and cause yourself to have obesity. It is because you have obesity that you overeat. I will also like to say this. I want people to know that I thought that just like every time you've ever been on a diet, you reach the goal and you think that's it i'm just now going to be in maintenance mode well when i turned 70 uh i decided okay i've gotten to the weight i think i can hold this weight if i just continue to eat less eat all my meals by four o'clock continue hiking continue doing all the things and i gradually started to put the weight back on yeah so after i got 20 pounds up, I thought, okay, I'm headed back to that 211. So I got back on the medications. So I have proven that for myself, I need to remain on the medications the same way I remain on blood pressure medication. I have high blood pressure in my family. My mother had it. My aunts have it. My father had it. It's a chronic condition. It's a chronic condition. And I get my blood pressure was 117 over 80 the other day. Wonderful blood pressure. If I stop taking the blood pressure medication, that blood pressure is going to shoot up. And the same thing is true with the GLP-1 medications. And that's how people have to look at it. It's not a weight loss tool. Right. It's not one and done. Yeah. You're fighting a disease. You're not fighting weight. You're fighting a disease. We're going back into the game. Let's go back to the cards. Round two. These are insights. Three new cards. One, two, three. Middle card. Middle card. Are you good at being alone? Oh, my God. I'm a master at it. Tell me more. That's a car design for me. Yes, you know, I think being in Mississippi with my grandmother on the side porch, on that little cubby hole with the chickens, I learned as a child how to be alone and how to feel full alone, How not to long for, because there wasn't anybody. So there's no longing for something else other than what I actually had. And so I am really good not only at being alone, but I cherish it. I revel in it. I can't wait to be alone. And also inherent in that answer is a recognition from an early age. It gets back to the title of the book. But that what is in the outline of your body and in your interior is all you need. And it can be enough, you know? Well, I think it comes from recognizing that you are enough. I think looking for external anything leaves you feeling empty because all the external things eventually fade. And also, no longer feels the same. I remember, you know, my father was so strict that when I started college and was out on my own, I remember thinking, I can't wait to stay out all night long. I can't wait. I'm going to party and I'm going to stay out on my own. And I remember being in a party and it was like looking at the clock and it's like now 3.30. Oh, God. Okay, I'm going to try to make it to dawn. It's now 4 o'clock. Oh, God. And realizing it wasn't what I thought it was, you know? It so rarely is. It rarely is. You're talking to the wrong person. 330 is not a place I want to be away from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It didn't fill me the way I had thought it would, you know? And so... But also, it's important to know how to be alone. I imagine, when I think of you and your life, I guess I'm going like this on purpose, because when you're at the top of a mountain, it can be lonely. I've never been lonely. No? No. It's interesting. I was talking to a friend who was saying, well, of course you've been lonely. I go, what does that feel like? I don't know what that would feel like because I'm so comfortable being alone and have been since I was a little girl And because I believe first and foremost that I am a universal human that I belong to the universe I belong to the body of God by all the names that you call that So my creation and being here just like your creation, I don't think I'm any special. I think mine and yours and everyone else who's listening to us right now is of this mystery that I call God by all the names in the universe that we call God, and that you are a part of that. And so you come from that. That is what's supporting you and lifting you and guiding you if you pay attention. And I pay attention. The reason why I am who I am and I've been able to beat every odd. I mean, my grandmother used to say, I want you to grow up and have some nice white folks like I have because they give you food and get to bring home food and they give you the clothes and if the clothes are not too worn, the clothes are good. I hope you get some good white folks. She had no idea that I would be leading the life that I do lead with wonderful, good white folks who are working for me. That's an inconceivable idea to her. But I know I did not do that alone. There are forces at work in my life that I've been guided by and led to that allowed me to come from literally a Mississippi dirt road, carrying the urine pot out and dumping it in the morning as a little girl and going to the well to draw water as a little girl has led me from that space to living in Montecito. So every time I walk in a bathroom and I flush the toilet, I'm still like, wow. And what I love about that answer is that a lot of people say, well, that's Oprah's life. Oprah's life is exceptional. She had exceptional trauma. She's had exceptional success. But what you're saying is that anyone can pay attention to your own legacy, to your own ancestors, to your own story, and all the people who have lifted you up into the world. And I would like to say I would not take one thing for the journey that I've been on, even going through all these years of struggle with fat, because you're right. It's also what made me relatable to people, being able to tell the truth about it and confessing I can't do it and let's try another diet and y'all let's try this one and now let's do this one. But it's also recognizing that everybody's story and everything in your story is valuable to who you are now. And not one thing that has ever happened to you has happened not also for you. So everything happens to you also is happening for you because it leads you to a strengthening within yourself. So you think of all the terrible things that you've been through and all the things you thought you wouldn't get through. And look at how all of those things actually brought strength into your mind, your body, and your spirit. Even though you might have felt destroyed at one time or felt like you couldn't go on, nothing is wasted. Not one single thing is wasted. So all the years that, you know, abuse and sexual assault and all that stuff, all of that came to a beautiful fruition for me in all those years of being able to talk to people. The reason why I'm so empathetic and have such understanding and curiosity is because, wow, that happened to me too. I lived through that. And if I did, I know you can. Right. Yeah. Three more. Okay. One, two, three. Okay. Three. Hope it's good, Rachel Martin. Oh, God. Ah, that's a nice one. What's a sound that instantly puts you at ease? Any kind of water sound, it instantly puts me at ease. And I have my best thoughts in the bathtub. So my best thoughts are in the bathtub. I always do it with, listen, that's why favorite things, always has a bubble bath on it for me. Because when I was a kid, it was my job to clean the tub. But I thought, if you use Mr. Bubble, which we couldn't afford, so I would use Joy Liquid or Ivory Liquid in the tub. I've always used bubbles, okay? But if you leave the water trickling, it's like being by a creek. Oh, yeah. Okay? Just trickling just a little bit. I used to get in trouble when I was little because I would keep the water going because I wanted the constant sound. And my mom would be, wasting water! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my father did too, but now I pay my own water bill, so I can do it. Okay? Listen, my father was so bad, it was like, don't flush the toilet unless you have number two, because we need to save water. So I lived in that household. But my bottom line is... Bottom line is... Water. Water. Sound of water. Last one in this round? I love this game. You do? I love this game. I'm going to be playing this game at my house. One, two, or three? Two. What feels unreachable to you, Oprah? What feels unreachable to me? Ooh. Really? Nothing that I'm reaching for. No, no, nothing feels unreachable to me. But I'm not no longer reaching. I'm just really just in a space of contentment. There were years when you were reaching. It's another word for trying. Here's the thing. I don't actually think I was reaching. I think I was just in every moment. This is the thing. When I did Color Purple, after I got the Color Purple dream fulfilled, because I never wanted to do anything more than color purple. After that dream got fulfilled for me, I started to think God can dream a bigger dream for me than I can dream for myself. So here's a story that I love to share with people. I went to my friend's house who was a producer on the Oprah show, Arlene Weiner. And her husband was very wealthy, still is. They live in Baltimore. And he was a big-time lawyer. And Arlene had all these different cars in her driveway. Her son had a Stingray. She had a BMW. Her husband had a Mercedes. I was like, whoa, Arlene is rich. But I wasn't as impressed with the cars as I was. The trees. When I went inside her house, there were all these trees outside in the yard. And I counted from her kitchen window, six trees. And I thought, that's what rich people do. They have trees. Okay. So I remember being in my house in Montecito. So this is like two decades later, and I looked out the window, and there were the six trees. But beyond the six trees were hundreds and hundreds of other trees, because I basically live in a forest. And I realized, wow, I could dream of the six trees. I had a dream for the six trees. I always said, when I get a house, I'm going to have me six trees in the yard. Forget about them BMWs. I'm going to have six trees. Or 60. Yeah. Or 60. Yeah. Or 600 trees. Yeah. And so I could have never dreamt that. I could have never. How do you possibly appreciate all that you have? It is, it's so much. Yeah, it is. Do you know what I mean? But you know what it does? It leaves me in a state of constant gratitude, wonder, and awe. because I am a black woman born in racist, apartheid Mississippi at the time that I was born in 1954. Born exactly the right time of Brown v. Board of Education, but many years before that was instituted. And the fact that I could come out of Mississippi and not be covered in bitterness and anger and confusion about where I belonged or didn't belong, you know, that is God. That is something bigger than myself. So I feel that, you know, there are a lot of, you know, there's a phrase that we use in the church, blessed and highly favored. I feel like I have been blessed and highly favored by the hand of God and have been blessed because I humbly understood what to do with it. So I wasn't reaching for more. Everything I ever had, I was using it as an offering to bring the audience along with me. The same thing is true with this book. The only reason I'm doing a book is because I've now discovered that it's not about willpower. And I want all the people who are suffering right now who started on Monday, the next diet, who started right after the new year, this is going to be the year, to know you're not going to do it with willpower. So you're still thinking about your audience. Yeah. Yeah. It's all about the audience. Right. And the reason the show was so successful is not because we were ever thinking about ourselves. That show was successful because it was built on the intention of the audience. I remember calling the producers in one day after we'd done a show where we were all just, where I was embarrassed for myself. We did a show where we got, the producers were so proud of themselves. They'd gotten a guy who, we were doing a show on affairs, and they got a guy who was having an affair to get his mistress to come on with him and also bring his wife. Oh, Lord. and on that show the husband says on national television he says to his wife on national television my show I'm standing in the audience they're on the stage and he says well what you don't know is she's pregnant and the audience gasped and so did I and I saw her face I saw her face and I said that will never happen to me again I will never be in a position where I put somebody in my space where they're going to be humiliated. And so I went to the producers and said, that's it. We're not doing that anymore. And they go, what do you mean? I go, do you know how hard it was to get that guy? I know, but we're not doing that anymore. And then we had just recently done Members of the Ku Klux Klan, and I went, well, we're not doing that anymore. And they're like, well, what are we going to do? And I literally sat down and said to them, And what we're going to do is we're going to allow the audience to tell us what they want. So I started talking to the audience after every show. And that became my focus group for like a half an hour, 45 minutes after every show. And we're going to be guided by where they are. We're going to meet them where they are. And women started saying in the audience, you know, I've done everything right. I did the schooling. I went to them. I got the degree. I got the husband. I got the kid. But I feel like there's something more. I said, oh, people are talking about there's something more. What is that something? People are missing something in their spirit. There's something missing. So we started talking about it. And this is where we are today, too. And this is where we are. Here we are. Still looking for the missing piece. Yes, still looking for that. So it was always, always being guided by the audience. I love that audience so much. If you were to ask me the question of, you know, I knew it was time to end the show. but what I missed the most was the audience and not the, oh my God, there's an audience. But just sitting down talking to the audience every day. Yeah. to finally announce that it is here. The Wild Card Deck, it's available at the NPR shop. You can find it at shopnpr.org. And we've selected some of our very favorite questions from the show, and we made this custom deck for you, our audience. It is just a phenomenal way to think about your own memories, insights, and beliefs over dinner with the family, maybe on a road trip with friends. It's a way to connect and learn new things about people you are just meeting or people you have known all of your life. Check it out at shopnpr.org. We are so excited for you to try it out. Again, shopnpr.org. Wildcard deck. Last round, beliefs. Last round, beliefs. Beliefs. One, two, or three. I love this game. Keep saying it. I love this game. Okay, so when I'm playing it in my house, I'm going to absolutely send you a video of us playing it. I will take a picture and send it to you. Okay. What are you feeling? I'll take one. How do you think your life should be judged? Oh, that is just the best question. And I have the best answer. If she does say so or so. I have the best answer for you, girl. Give it to me. Okay. When I had done my, finished my opening, my school in South Africa and Maya Angelou wasn't allowed to come because she had the flu, wasn't allowed to come. She didn't come because she had the flu. I flew directly from South Carolina, from South Africa to North Carolina to sit at Maya's table to tell her about the opening of the school. and I said, oh, Maya, Maya, Maya, this school is going to be my greatest legacy. And she said, you have no idea what your legacy is going to be. I said, oh, no, no, no, no. I know this school is going to be it because the girls, the girls, you know, they're just so smart and they believe in education and they want it and they're hungry for it. And she said, I said, you have no idea what your legacy will be because your legacy is not one thing, and it certainly isn't your name on a building. And even though the girls will go on and they will do great things in their lives, your legacy is every life you have touched. So how will I be judged? I will be judged by every life I have touched. Just recently, Gail said to me, you know, all these people are doing memoirs and you still haven't done a memoir. And I said, you know, I think about it. I've had contracts to do it and then backed out of the contracts to do it. I go but I not worried about it because the real story to be told the real judgment of the life which is the question from the wild card the real judgment is whose life did you touch What did you do when you were here? That's how you will be judged. And the people whose lives have been touched, they know that story. And I think of the impact of the Oprah show. It continues to manifest and live on by people who watch the show who raise their children differently. And that's what Maya said. It's every woman who decided to go back to school. It's everybody who saw it and said, today I leave my abusive relationship. Today I'm going to do something about my health. Today I'm going to go get my blood pressure checked. Today I'm going to make the decision to go to visit my estranged father whom I've not seen. It's every person who made a decision by watching and hearing something that you've said. And so the judgment isn't what the press says. The judgment isn't what other people who are hating on you or online are saying. It's every life you have touched. And I can live with that judgment. One, two, or three? Three. How do you tap into something bigger than yourself? Oh, well, everything's bigger than myself. My whole life is based on tapping into what is bigger than me. I don't do anything without the guidance of a universal energy, spirit, God, divine presence, the forces of life. Sidney Poitier and I used to get into all these if you were to ask me what regret I had my biggest, one of my biggest regrets which isn't a big thing but every Sunday I used to talk to Sidney and Sidney Poitier was one of those people who when I was a little girl, I was 10 years old and he won the Academy Award and I remember thinking in that moment We called ourselves colored people then. That's a colored man. A colored man did that. If he did that, I wonder what I could do. And I grew up to meet that man. And he was one of the few people on the planet who really, really, really got me. so on my 42nd birthday Quincy Jones had a birthday party for me because my name was not allowed on the poster for The Color Purple at the time that I did The Color Purple because I wasn't famous enough to have my name on there and so Quincy had a party and he presented me with a poster with my name on it for my 42nd birthday even though I did the movie when I was 30 years old and I walked down the stairs and he knew how much I admired Sidney Poitier and I walked down the stairs and there is Sidney Poitier. You hadn't met him before? I hadn't met him before. And he said, my dear, I have been longing to meet you. And he comes on my show and we had a conversation on my show and then afterwards I went into the control room and I bawled into a towel like, oh, my God, I can't believe it was Sidney Poitier. I can't believe it. I was such an idiot. I don't even know what I said. I was so out of my body. I don't know. And then two days later, he called me and he said, my dear, I didn't feel like I was completely myself. I would love to have another conversation with you, just the two of us. And would you like to join me for dinner? And I went and I met him for dinner. And then, you know, after that, every Sunday for years, we spoke every Sunday. And my regret is I didn't record the conversations and that I didn't I didn't even write it down. That I mean, I think I could have done a whole book now on Sundays with Sidney because he so he just imparted so much wisdom and care. And I think of him because he and I used to get into these ongoing arguments about, he would say, the forces of life. And I would say, why don't you just call it God? Why don't you just call it God? He goes, I'm not comfortable saying God, but if you're comfortable saying God, I can accept that. So he called it the forces of life. Now I'm comfortable with whatever name you want to use it. And so I would want to say to Sidney, I regret that I didn't record it in some way. But he, it was interesting that that was the story that queued up in your brain when asked about how do you tap into something bigger. He helped you. I'm sure there are many, many people who are that for you, who help you get to that place. Well, it was not only just Sydney, but, you know, when I first started, I was so overwhelmed. And I see this with young people. I remember interviewing Justin Bieber when he turned 18. And I said to him, I really feel for you because it's really hard when you get discovered on YouTube at 12. And you think this is the life. You think that, you know, people telling you how wonderful you are, that that's the life. And where are you going to find the space to figure out yourself, who you are in all of this? So one of the great things for me is that it happened, the whole attention thing came when I was already 30 years old. But I was still like, how do you do this? And what should you do about that? And I had Quincy, I had Sidney Poitier, and I had Maya Angelou. That's pretty good. Pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah. Last one. Yeah. One, two, or three? Two. Two. Have you made peace with mortality? Oh, yeah. I think I have. I feel like, oh, my God, y'all went deep. You get to the mortality question. Yes, I feel like there's something about the seventh decade that's very different than all the others. you know you're closer to the end. Yeah. And you value the time that you've had, but also hold greater value for how you spend the time that is remaining. And I feel that what Whitman said with Leaves of Grass, that death is going to be such a surprise. Isn't it, though? It's going to be such a surprise. Who knows what's going to happen? It's going to be a delight. You're going to get to the other side and you're going to go, what? All this time we were fighting getting over here? This is the good side. So, no, I feel because I do feel and have sensed the presence of my 21 dogs, I've gotten to experience it every time a dog leaves, especially if you're putting the dog down. So you have the dog in your arms and then there's life and then suddenly there's death. And anybody who's gone to a funeral and you're looking or has had a loved one pass, you know that the spirit has left the body. You know that this is just a casing for who was here. And where are all of those spirits? I think that I don't know where they are, but there are times when I can feel the presence of some of them. and I feel that I was here to earn my wings. And I actually do think this is my last trip here. That's what I think. That means you believe you've been here before. Oh, definitely, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I believe in some point. Yeah, I just, and so I believe that this. Wait, but if you think this is the last go round, that means. I'm okay with that. You're done. Well, no, I'm going to the next room. The suffering is over. I don't know what the next realm is. Who knows what the next realm is? Who knows what that is? But I think a lot of humans aren't going to pass this test. I see a lot of them not passing the test. But I think that I've paid attention. I've been observant. I've tried to be as honorable as I know honored to be. I've never done a thing that I consciously know of that has ever harmed another person. You know, I haven't. That's pretty huge. And so I think that the lessons— Or if you did, you took accountability for it. I mean, I'm just thinking of the example you gave of the guy on the stage and the girl, the young woman. Yeah, that I consciously tried to—but to consciously go out and try to hurt somebody? Right. No, no. So I might have made mistakes and people were harmed or they, you know, felt like I should have done one thing or another or you spoke to me and I didn't speak to you that day or whatever. Yeah. But I think I've I think I've you know, one of the things that Maya said to me after we first met, she goes, I can see who you are, girl. I can see who you are. And what you are is obedient. You are obedient to the call. That's what Maya Angelou said to me. And so in the midst of all the craziness and hateration and stuff, I still feel that I'm obedient to the call, the call of my life that is a call like no one else's. You have a call. Everybody listening to us right now has it. Are you obedient to the call or are you resistant to the call? Are you fighting the call? Are you trying to tell the call that it needs to be something other than it is? Are you in some way rejecting it? And so I have leaned into the calling of my life and been able to do that. In the word obedient, there's like a servant love in that. There's like a— It's also a surrendering. It's a surrendering to why you're really here and not trying to fight that. Yeah. It's leaning into what the forces of life have intended for you and understanding that every choice leads you in the direction of your highest calling if you're willing to be obedient to it. What is that for you? What is that for you? And a lot of people today were so confused by what TikTok says and what Insta says and what social media says and what other people say that you cannot hear the voice of your own calling. It's not out there. You're not going to find it out there. It only comes in the stillness of your own being. And you can only get it by being quiet enough to discover it for yourself. And that's what I wish for people. I wish for everybody to have this kind of peace that I have, this kind of contentment. Because not only, you know, what people like to talk about is the external wealth. Well, the external wealth is not even a match for the internal wealth that I feel from the appreciation and the gratitude of the life I've been able to lead. And a constant awareness of that. I'm never not aware of it. I'm never not aware. There's not a morning that I wake up that I'm not aware of the road from Mississippi to Montecito. Not a morning, not a morning, not a day. And every time I enter, you know, the front lawn, I come through the gates of my house. I literally have a mantra that I say, Jesus loves me every time I pass the fountain. Because how did this happen? Because Jesus loves me. This I know. So growing up, there's this song called Jesus loves me. This I know. For the Bible tells me so. So I know this to be true. How else could I have this life? I hear the people saying, though, Jesus loves a lot of people who are still real poor. Yeah. But I have leaned. But I acknowledge that I am blessed. Blessed and, as the Bible said, blessed and highly favored. Blessed and favored. I acknowledge that, but I have only been blessed because I leaned into what was intended for me by a power greater than myself. You know, I couldn't have dreamed this. I was just going to be happy being a fourth grade teacher. I was going to be happy being a fourth grade teacher. You would have been a damn good fourth grade teacher. Oh, my God, I was going to be the best. I had decided that I was going to win the Teacher of the Year Award as the fourth grade teacher. I was going to be a great fourth grade teacher. I think it could have happened. It could have happened. Oprah, we end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay? This is where you go back. You pick one moment from your past that you would like to revisit. It's not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose? I would choose being on the porch in Mississippi, in the rocking chair, in my grandmother's arms, and watching the lightning and thunderstorm off in the distance and having her rocking me and hugging me because that is the one and only time I ever remember being hugged and rocked by my grandmother and the one and only time I ever remember feeling my grandmother loves me. That is a beautiful memory. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you because I haven't thought of that since it happened. I hadn't thought of that. So thank you for that. Yeah. It's been a real pleasure to get to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you for doing it. Welcome. That was fun. Oprah's newest book is called Enough. Your health, your weight, and what it's like to be free. thank you so much it was great thank you thank you so much for listening and if you're new to the feed welcome come on in I am so glad you're here if you like this conversation I would recommend going back and checking out our episodes with Brene Brown Michelle Obama and John Green and if you'd like to watch those interviews you can do it check out our YouTube page just search for NPR Wildcard My conversation with Oprah is up there too. This episode was produced by Alicia Zhang and Lee Hale. It was edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Becky Brown. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangueni, and our theme music is by Ramteen Arablewe. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.