Ep 75: Jealousy, Mindf*cks, and Wait… Did Leo Just Have Lesbian Sex?

Find us at vanilla swingers.com and you'll find Kat's only fans page there too. You wish. Hey Kat. Yeah Leo. I'm going to record one of those silly disclaimers that you put at the beginning of the podcast. Real advisory sticker. Let's go because this is going to be explicit. Oh yeah we're going to talk about lots of sex. Lots of bad language. We might even have sex while on the podcast. We might have. Listening to the noise of our love making. There might be nudity. But you can't see it on the podcast. Does it matter? You can hear it. That's true. You can hear the nudity. We might corrupt you if you're under the age of 18. That's the disclaimer. Don't listen. We're not professional. What else? And yeah we're not professionals. We know nothing. Absolutely nothing. And if you want to try to sue us? Well we don't have any money either. Because this is bite-size and commercial free. We're not trying to make any money. We just feel like we're fine. So if you like it then tune in and listen. Word. It's Leo. It's Kat. Oh oh oh. Are we going to go there huh? Yeah. I thought that was a couple of episodes ago. It's always fun. I need to do some more live stuff and put it on the pod. I'm going to say right out of the gate. This last weekend just feels like that just happened. Yeah. We went to Denver. We haven't been back in like six months. We went for all Hallows Eve party. And I think this was our swan song in Denver. And what a hell of a way to go out. Because the last time we were in Denver was in April, May. And you might recall that was when I went my first oafer. Leo had three MFFs. But I had an oafer and we did a whole Why the Lifestyle Sucks pod. Are you talking about why it's our swan song in Denver? Well that was the last time we went to Denver. So we were a little bit skittish to go back and we went back again. And in the MFM department you went over again. I did go over again but you know what? That's okay. Because I got porn going. Yes you did. I can say that out loud now. And that's why LA is your new favorite stomping ground. Oh you got that right. We go once a month. I'd be happy. Yeah we're going to do that. But I sometimes sit here and think, how is this my life? This is one of those scenarios where I feel like we've been talking things into the universe. Leo's a really big visualizer. If he says something like in our vanilla life, I have to pay attention to it because it just might happen. There's just some fantastical things that we've just thrown out there, shouted it out into the void. And I say it again, we are not nearly as good at playing this game as we like to think we are. No because how many times do we go over people? We're not that good at it. And so there's no question. We've got our Swinger Guardian Angel, Stuart's got. And do you know that we met our Swinger Guardian Angel doppelganger at an IHOP at three in the morning? Boo yeah! It would have been more appropriate to meet him at Waffle House. Really? I thought IHOP was good. I had some chocolate chip pancakes. Well the Waffle House is where you go for 3am Bum Fights. IHOP is where you go for the theater kids smoking weed for the first time. We went rambling in after a threesome at like three in the morning, of course, we were having a threesome. And Leo for the first time in a really long time, he decided to tell our waiter who was a Stuart Scott absolute doppelganger. We just had a threesome. Yeah! The last time I did that was when we were in Vegas with our Thrupple with Lana. And it was such a new thing. He was telling everybody in the elevator, we're having a threesome tonight. I just wanted to share the good news with everybody. I haven't done that in a hot minute and we've had a lot of threesome since then. But this was a fun one. And it was eight months in the making and when it's eight months in the making between meeting, getting to know someone before you play, that's a lot of sexual tension. And so we've been talking these things into reality. Into reality, it goes back as far as you saying porn boy. Step mom porn. Bounce. Bounce. That was four months in my phone. We're talking about the airline stewardess. Want to get away? Yeah that happened. Yeah that might happen. I'm serious. I am serious. And don't call me Shirley. We're talking about the sapphic swingers. Oh my God. Yeah that might have happened. I got to see the dungeon. And I just think to myself, how are we just stacking them up, knocking them down one after the other? So we have to see Malibu boy down in LA. I'm just saying it. I want to put it out in the ether because next time we're in LA, I have to see him. And a lot of these are happening where we're playing the long game. They're going three, four, five, sometimes nine months in the making. And now they all just sort of come back. We might have a bit of a repeat MFM coming up in a couple days. And that's from like four months ago also. It was actually the first guy who dipped a toe. Dipped his wick. Easy. In your waters, so to speak. Solo. And I told him that in the moment, we've never done this before. Even though it only lasted for about 30 seconds. You must be special. And he's been in my phone on and off. As of this moment, this is probably terrible karma, but we do have a play date upcoming. Well you know what? I'll publish it. I'll just edit it out if we don't do it. You are given a clue about what will happen later. But if we do, we talked it into being. I think he'll be a great one for you. I know. I'm so excited. I liked him a lot. And let's not forget one of the best of all, Pusher. Pusher galore. When we first met her, it was fan fucking tastic. But it was a total one off maddeningly. So we couldn't believe it. I kept saying, she is great. It felt like we almost got friendzoned. And now we're in the end zone. Get back in there. You're not done. Are you doing a little touchdown dance? We have no time on the clock. We see her again. Hail Mary. And now we're in a full blown trouble. We've met so many times. I've lost track of how many times we've seen her. And it just keeps getting better and better. And this next visit, we're going to see her on Saturday night. She is surprising us with something for the first time. We have no idea where we're going, what we're doing, but I know it's going to be fun because we always have a great time together. And we're going to hit Illuminati for new years. Illuminati in the house. We're going to give that a try. And if it's good, they've got Illuminati down in LA. And after that, what we can't tell you what we're going to do is you might be listening. It's going to be a surprise. Oh yeah. I love that. I was going to say, we don't know what we're going to be doing. We're talking after New Year's. My brain hasn't gone that far yet. Except for the AVN Awards at Vegas. I think we've said that this year was when the training wheels came off. I know, but you're talking as if the year is over and it's not even November 1st yet. So we've only had the training wheels off for 10. I guess the reason why I phrase it like that is because we've done so much. We're like speed running. We thought we were speed running before in our first year, our second year. It's just like chickens with their heads cut off. But so we should tell you what we did. We were in Denver. We went back to go to the Scarlet Ranch Halloween Ball. I think we were trying to decide between the flesh and fantasy ball, which we ended up going to in addition to, but that's a whole other story. I know there's Key West. Fantasy Fest. We might do that on another year. There's also a bunch of ones near us in the Bay Area. There's supposed to be Naughty in New Orleans. They have a Halloween theme for next year. There's also friction has parties all up and down the East Coast, like in Philadelphia and North Carolina. We had a lot of options, but we thought, let's go back to one of our favorite plants, the Scarlet Ranch. And we get to see all our old friends that we haven't seen in a really long time. Plus we had invited airline stewardess. Want to get away to come be a trio with us. And we were going to go as a high school trio. Boy, do we vibe so well. Yeah. Now we know her a lot better. Two hours later. Yeah, we do. And we like her a lot. And I think she had a great time. We just really hit it off. So first of all, going to the ranch, it was a fucking madhouse. We thought we were going to get there right at opening at six o'clock. Who goes at six o'clock? Apparently everybody. Right. We waited over an hour and it was a madhouse. Yeah, there's probably at least 500 people and I'd say 90%, 95% of the people were totally decked out. Yeah, they were dress up people. Scarlet Ranch throws a great Halloween party. We definitely will think about going there again next year. It was a really good party. The DJ was hidden. I can't say the music was my favorite, but they certainly brought all the people out on the dance floor. I don't think we'll go next year. Okay. You think we'll have other things to do? Yeah, there's just too many things to do in the lifestyle that are new. I want to spin the wheel and I want to try something new that we've never done before. And speaking of trying something new that we've never done before. We met the sapphic swingers and I had lesbian sex. Leo had some lesbian sex. I think that makes me the beard, actually. But it was hot. It was hot as a grease file. Yeah, that's going to come later. Back to the airline stewardess. We were at trio at the Halloween party. Schoolgirl, football player, and she wore a cheerleader costume. That was three sizes too small. I think what happened is she ordered it on Amazon in one of those Chinese sizes where a large is like a toddler size. And so she kept popping out and she was just all for it. She's like, my boobs aren't going to stand for very long. She was just owning it. In the car right over there, I was looking in the rear view and she was talking about how small it was. I didn't see it until she got out of the car. That's because she was wearing a jacket because it was quite chilly and Denver. When she got out of the car? It was tiny as fuck. And she was cute as fuck. Did I mention that? She is like a fantasy on the line. She's an airline stewardess who's cute as fuck. Doesn't get any better than that, right? And she's just got the greatest vibe, like yes to anything. Would you like another drink? Yes. Do you want to go dancing? Yes. Do you want to come back to our hotel with us now? Yes. Do you want to come with us to Vegas? Yes. Well, you know, we've said it all the time again. We like people who just say yes. Yeah. And she had a lot of that and you want to stay out with us till almost three in the morning? Wee, wee. It was her first time at the club. I think it was very overwhelming, but what was really interesting, especially speaking to newbies who might be listening, it was the first time at any swinger club for her. She'd never been to a lifestyle club before in her life. And she talked about how many misconceptions she probably had, especially for the playrooms downstairs. Yeah, we showed her all around. We gave her the whole dime store tour. She got there. She looked down at the playrooms and said, they're so classy. They've got like stonework on the walls. It's like, where's the elk heads? She thought it was going to be downstairs in an unfinished basement. Yeah, she said there's going to be like a white drywall and a little bit bright like lab rats. They're playing sexy Jenga in like a hunting lodge. It does feel like a hunting lodge. I think she definitely liked it. We were not going to play at the club because as we say time and time again, there is nothing that hits better than taking it back to the rave room. Right. It's great when you first get started. That exhibition, voyeur stuff is enough to scratch your itch. But when you have gone a little farther along, there is nothing like being with that extra person in your room. One on one or two on one. Two on one, actually. That's the case may be. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. One of the coolest things is when we got back as we're heading to the hotel room and doing the walk of shame down the hallway as we're key in the lock, I'm wearing the football jersey and on the back says vanilla swingers. And she says, how about we trade? She said, I'm going to be the powder puff girl with the football jersey. And I want to see you try to get on my little three sizes, two small cheerleader. I said, hey, yeah, boy. So I got a photo of them. And it's the most iconic second only to the MFFF photograph where we're all in the bed together. It's four naked blonde girls and Leo smack dab in the middle naked as J birds. And it actually has the vanilla swinger neon sign that's like four. It's glowing pink in the bed. And it's because we were at a hotel takeover. So that's how we had decorated our room. It was absolute iconic. And it was me dragging some poor Schmo from outside in the hallway. We come take a photo of you talking about MFFF. Yeah, this one was just us. The reason it's iconic is because not only is it tawdry like a bucket list item you never knew that you had or wanted. But you'd like to do again. Hell, yeah, we did it again. I know. But it's iconic because it has the name vanilla swingers above the bed. And that's been so much part of our journey. It is. It's part of our story. Maybe it's part of some of your stories because you listen to us. For us, it's we're living that. And so there she is on the bed wearing the jersey with her back turned. And it shows the vanilla swingers on the back of the journey. And she's turned looking at the camera with her cute apple bottom in her cheerleader skirt. Three sizes too small. Yeah, I'm going to say that that's probably our second most iconic photo. Absolutely adorable. So we had a hell of a lot of fun. We did. And the neat part about it is she's an airline stewardess. So she can meet us anywhere. OK, she could meet us in California. She could meet us in Vegas. It's not a reason necessarily for us to keep coming back to Denver. I would say that she is innocent yet corruptible, just like you. And what I like especially about her as well is how much she was into you. I know I was into her a lot too. She was fantastic. She really was. We're going to see you again. Airlines stewardess. We're going to take her to the AVN Awards. We're going to Vegas Oscars. I'm going to see porn boy and we might play with some porn stars there. I'd say that the odds are going up steadily now that you've had a situation ship with the porn boy. I would mind another porn boy, but I like that porn boy a lot. So I'll take him again. And yeah, I just I'm looking forward to spending some time and you know, we always talked about the Vegas entourage. We're going to go ahead and we're going to create an entourage. We actually had a lot of people slide into our DM saying they'd like to be a part of our entourage just random people like we don't know who they are. We've never met them, but people do say I love you. It feels like you're picking teams for dodgeball team. So you're going with porn boy. Oh, not Italian Edward. Listen, Italian Edward blows everybody out of the water. It doesn't matter. That is such long ago water under the bridge. He walked in with that cleft chin and dangling earring and moppy hair with the would you like as a you, but you would drop everything, including your panties, including my panties. Yeah, they'd be gone. God, I wish we could see him post 69. Okay. Then you're going to add porn boy. Yeah. I'm adding Hussher and I'm adding airline stewardess. Okay. That's two for two. I'm going to get Malibu boy. I haven't seen him yet in the bedroom, but I'm coming for you. I'm not going to go any further than that because I don't want to leave anybody off the list because there's so many great ones out there. See, and I can leave everybody off the list because guys don't listen to the pod. So it's perfect. Yeah. And they mostly suck. I could say anything I want to say. And then we followed that up two hours later. It was not two hours later. No, it's a meme. Oh, really? I've never seen that meme. That's because I'm not on Reddit anymore because I got banned. It's not on Reddit. Whatever. I'm not on Reddit either. I got banned people. Although, you know what? You can't write me there anymore. Airline stewardess. I think she's a little bit of a redditor. Because we found her on Reddit. She said she's a nerdy girl. She said she's a theater girl. She's also said she's been to Rocky Horror 15 times. I remember doing the time warp. Let's do the time warp again. You know she's our kind of people now. I got to say, I do like the nerdy girls. I like the theater girls. They have a very, very soft spot in my heart. Monkey girl? You know it. You know it. Monkey girl and Malibu boy. The top deck with the rain falling over her head. I know. That was on Glow Night Bliss, April cruise. Who else does their finger to their lip like that? Who was that? My memory was shocked. Was it Vegas couple? Vegas dress up couple? It was Vegas dress up girl. Okay. Mrs. Vegas dress up girl. That's redundant. Mrs. Vegas dress up couple. We're going to fast forward. We had the wonderful post threesome iHop meal with our lovely Stewart Scott doppelganger. I think for a second there we thought she might spend the night. Which I was all for it. I think we'll take a rain check on that in Vegas. But we were starving and in and out burger was closed. So we had to go to iHop. I know. I didn't get sweet tea. We didn't get any mashed potatoes second through a straw. But I had some chocolate chip pancakes and I was pretty damn happy. I think I had two breakfasts because what I always do is every time we go to these things. You expend a lot of energy and sometimes we fast a little. We kind of forget to eat dinner. Yeah. That might happen. I don't even remember what I ate, but it was good. I was tasty. Come hungry. Leave that be. And he was so fantastic. He told Leo because we told him about the threesome. Not in detail, but this is what we just did. And he said, I want to be you when I grow up. He's like, probably, I don't know, 15 years older than you, which is hilarious. He's like, I want to be you when I grow up. And I think he said, if I were you, I'd be doing it up just the same. Living like a rock star. Just like a rock star. It was almost like he was saying, YOLO it. And we're like, oh my gosh, you're giving us just the advice we want to hear. And then we left him a really nice tip. He was a cool motherfucker. And I think it did sort of occur to us that it's almost like Stewart Scott there. He looked a lot like him. I think we got like a in real life fist bump from our Swing Your Guardian Angel. And he was a smiley-est guy. I mean, smiley at three in the morning at High Hop. And he was frickin' fantastic. Now, I think this is a good part where we explain a little bit why we're going to turn the page on Denver that I think that this Denver chapter is coming to a close for us. Well, there's a lot of reasons for it. First, we did get the year-long membership. So we told ourselves last December, now we got to go to Denver a lot to take advantage of that. And that's coming to a close, right? Which is ridiculous if you think about it. And a lot of our gals that we've been seeing, they've kind of moved on. Some have moved away. Roller Girl actually has moved to Oakland. So we'll definitely be seeing her. And some of the band has broken up since the MFFFFF. And there's been a lot of people where they're now in relationships, you know, more primary relationships. And so it's just not the same. And I have gone over two times in a row in Denver. And Airline Stewardess travels. Yes. What do you call that when an airline employee jumps on a flight like Space Available? Standby? No, it's got a special name to it. It's called Standby. Deadheading. Deadheading? What the heck is that? It's a pilot who's a fan of the Grateful Dead, obviously. Oh, that's cool. It's really called deadheading. How'd you come up with that? Because I have tons of useless knowledge. It is so useless. By the way, you ever heard of Julian? Whenever you're trying to pronounce something and you go to YouTube to look it up, it's always, I am Julian, the Frenchman. And today I am going to pronounce deadheading. You are looking at Julian's pronunciation. How do you say it? Vanilla. You ever seen that guy? I've seen him. Do you think you're the only one? No, everybody's got to know Julian. Because you don't know how to pronounce things, right? In this day and age, if you don't know how to pronounce it, you look it up online. God damn fool. So I get to know Julian pretty well. I know you do, don't you? But he's almost iconic. I think he's been around since the dawn of time. And there's some kind of comfort in hearing Julian pronounce today the word. Leonardo. How would he pronounce Pussy Galore? Although I sound like the count from Sesame Street. One, two, three. Ah, ah, ah. So we went over in the MFM department again this weekend and it wasn't for lack of trying. Basically, all of the ones that we see, I think we're going to still see from Denver for various reasons in the MFM department, we're running dry. I think in a way. I want exceptional. Your drawbridge has been pulled up just a little bit. I want porn boy. And now you're heading to SoCal. Malibu boy. Malibu Richie Rich. Shy guy. Who is an aspiring. But then there's the sapphic swingers. Ah, talk about going out with a bang. You know, we get along with a lot of couples. We don't necessarily play with couples, but we do like hanging with couples. I have never met another couple that I liked as much as I like the sapphic swingers. Yeah. And I think that part of the reason is one, they almost feel like a threesome. And number two, they feel like us in a lot of ways. They do. Like our energy matches each other. We go over to their house. It is in the middle of suburbia. There's kids out playing on the lawn with Halloween decorations next door. We go into their house. Yeah, that was a bit of a mind fuck. And they have a charcuterie board. Charcuterie. Charcuterie. Charcuterie. It felt very domesticated. It felt very suburban. And we're like, okay. And it was sexy because of that. We don't do that. Right. I know a lot of you guys do that. We're standing in the kitchen around an island and we're having like cheese and wine. And then they offer us a drink. And of course the first drink they offer me is homemade espresso martinis. Yeah. It's one of Kat's favorite. And we like to say that Kat has a drinking problem. It's nothing to do with alcohol. It's just if you put anything in her hand, especially with a straw, she's going to drink the hell out of it. Sweet tea, water, juice. But if it's alcohol, I'm still going to drink the hell out of it. And then all my inhibitions go. It sounds like you've already had a couple of espresso martinis on this podcast. They were so freaking good. Oh my God. We talked and talked and talked. The sapphic swingers, when we first met them at the Scarlet Ranch. That we didn't first meet them. We met them at the Magnolia. Oh, that's right. And they played tonsil hockey with me. And prior to that, we think we ran into them. On the bliss. On the bliss and the elevator. Fuck shit up. Fuck shit up. If you guys haven't heard about that on the bliss cruise, if they're on it, they started the elevator crew. And basically they ride the elevator up and down at around like the eight, nine p.m. hour, at least a couple of days during the cruise. And every time the doors fling open, they start yelling. Fuck shit up. Fuck shit up. And they cheer and they applaud everybody and the elevator gets packed. And if anybody leaves, you boo them, you're like, oh, you're no fun. Like it's a party up and down in the elevator for like two hours. Yeah, they're a fantastic group of people. So that was all we knew about the sapphics. And if you ever see the elevator crew on the bliss cruise, tell them Kat and Leo said hi. But every time we've run into them, I feel like they're one of those couples that just matches our energy. They are just a live wire couple. And we had so much fun just hanging out in their kitchen, being very suburban, having a very vanilla conversation. And then I said, I want to see your dungeon. You promised me you're going to show me your dungeon. Oh, I told them there's no way we're leaving until we see the dungeon. And I didn't really know there was going to be a real dungeon. You know, I thought maybe they're just like, there's a room downstairs or there's this or there's, it was a dungeon. And I also want to say that they are some of the loveliest people that we've met in the lifestyle. I can't wait to see them again. Like we had a fantastic time. And we've met a lot of lovely people in the lifestyle. They're some of the loveliest. I think they're some of our favorites. And I like the dynamic. The neat thing about this was we had no idea what the hell we were going to do. We knew our lesbians. So we knew they were going to be into me, but we don't know what do you do with the guy in a relationship because you're lesbian swingers. You're in a very heteronormative space. How about the fact that lesbians in the lifestyle are probably as rare? I don't think there is another set of lesbian swingers in the lifestyle. None that we've met. So after the drinks started flowing, we ended up doing a little hanky-panky in the kitchen. And then they ended up taking me to the basement. So at this juncture, I think that there's a little bit of nervousness in the air between you three. Because there's not a couple swap happening, right? You don't exactly know what's going to happen. I'm always nervous. It's almost like there was some kind of unspoken rules of engagement, but nobody was willing to talk about it out loud. You think you're the one that got the ball rolling? I'm not nervous in situations like that. So I was trying to be fairly transparent and bold. Well, who kissed who first? I told him that you could do whatever you want with Kat. They were definitely going to fuck you that night. I think I did tell him later on, you need to stick something inside of me and you need to fuck me. And I think she proceeded to get her strap on. And I think we might have done some DVP. But I think it was cute, which is pretty fucking hot. How there was that uneasy nervousness in the air. It's a soft energy, but it was a soft energy. Just like whenever we bring a unicorn in the bedroom, it is a soft energy as hot as it is. It's not that kernel of rawness that like a guy brings. It's a soft energy, which is really quite nice. And I think that the most unusual aspect of it was on my part because this was going to be something entirely new for me. And I told him leading into it. He's like, well, what is my part in it? And I'm like, it's like an MFMM, maybe multiple guys. You're not touching those two people. It would be all about me. That's a good way of putting it. It's just there's extra pussies in the bedroom. And he's like, I'm not allowed to touch him. It was going to be the most pussies in the bedroom that I haven't touched. Yeah. And you're not much of a watcher. So he wasn't watching at all. He was directing things. He was moving us into position. He was on me at least half the time. And I think that we danced really well together. I think we did too, sapphic swingers. We love you guys. At the end, instead of feeling like maybe there was something missing, maybe particularly for me, you want to do it again. I said I want to do it again because it was actually very, very sexy. And they took the most amazing photo of us. This is another iconic photo, just like you said. Oh yeah, that's right. I mean, it really was. So they have a sex swing in their basement dungeon. And it has these back LED lighting that changes different colors. Right. And so first one of them took me in the swing with her strap on. And then Leo took his turn with me and they got this photo and it's purple behind us. And it's us silhouetted. Oh my God, it's a hot photo. We're just completely in silhouette. I wish I could show you all. It was really hot. I like it a lot. No, let's throw that up on Insta. Yeah, not gonna happen. Some of our favorite friends, we did send it to them though. Part of the charm of their dungeon was in the basement. There was sort of this girl cave, for lack of a better word. You know, it's got pool table. It's got wine barrel. But to get to it, you go through this hidden, speakeasy style door. With shelves on it. And it was blue. It was the coolest thing in the world. I hope I'm not doxing them by saying so. If you're in the basement and you're not sure who the sapphic swingers are, if they throw open the speakeasy door, then you already know that there's a dungeon behind the door. And what's interesting is they do a podcast. They don't do it anymore, but they did it a bit ago. Yeah, I think they're on a break. And they've never listened to us and we've never listened to them. And it was really quite funny just talking about it. The kind of talking shop, never having listened. I think both of us, we don't really listen to podcasts. Yeah, they said that. We don't listen to podcasts. I'm like, yeah, we don't either. We might have to give a listen because they are such good friends. Now we did steal a hat from them because we are a memento stealers. You know, part of the reason we don't listen, aside from not really having an interest in the first place and also being just lazy about it, is I don't want to listen to somebody and hear them have a certain style. And maybe I think, oh, that's a really great style. Maybe we should incorporate. We just want to be very organic and raw and have no influence. Yeah, our style will just be our own crappy style. Yeah, like whatever we come up with, we're coming out of it on the top of our head. Or out of the bottom of our house. Yeah, that one too. So airline stewardess, sapphic swingers. Wow. Amazing. Two amazing experiences in one weekend to close out our Denver chapter. And we know we're going to see them both again. And it may not be in Denver because we just don't see Denver in our future right now. If we have to travel to Denver just to see the sapphics and just to see the airline stewardess, I suppose we can make an exception. We still like the ranch. Don't get us wrong. But if I'm not going to find the sexy fun, it's time for new pastures. Cats got to find a little extra male attention to balance it out. Yeah, you can't go two times in a row over. Then it becomes an issue of maybe it's them and not me. But the sapphics were a pretty good substitute because all focus was on you. I know they liked me. I know they did. I like them. That's a bucket list item. I know. That's a bucket list item. I haven't kissed a girl until two years ago. I did. Can we swap with some lesbian swingers? I think that's so fucking cool. I had lesbian sex. I was in a girl pile. I know you did. I was your beard. I was just going back and forth, going down on both of them. Yeah, they're such lovely people. Yes. So what are we talking about tonight? We're going to talk about jealousy in a lifestyle. Oh, I know. That's a touchy subject. Spicy. Yeah, I wouldn't call it spicy. It's more like we're going to give you some insights from our journey because we are not immune to jealousy. And I don't think we really feel jealous anymore, but it has taken time. We recorded a podcast on jealousy probably about six months ago. I think we lost it. We are just so ridiculous. Yeah, we're not podcasters. That's the first thing. So yeah, we lost it. We had somebody at the Scarlet Ranch and they asked us, do you still record in a car? Who was at the Vicar? Yeah. Hi, Vicar. Does that answer your question, Vicar? We met a fantastic listener as we had one foot out the door at the Coachek at the Scarlet Ranch with airline stewardess and he was dressed like a Vicar. And it was really funny because he saw Leo's jersey that said vanilla swingers. And so he asked, are you the vanilla swinger and airline stewardess said yes. And so he said, so that must mean you're Leo and he thought airline stewardess was cat, which is funny because I forget that people don't know what we look like. Right. It was really quite cute. And then I'm like, heck, I'm over here. Get over here. No, this isn't my wife. But this is my life. And I think you said, oh, you're in a truffle, aren't you? And I love that he said I'm a Vicar instead of a priest because the distinction is priests are celibate and he doesn't want anybody to get that wrong idea. But what a fantastic couple. And to answer your question, yes, we do still record in a car because we ain't no podcasters. You need to shut the fuck up. We would love to have a studio at home, but we are still keeping this on the down low. We're 75 episodes and nobody knows we do this. We're still leading a double life. It's so much fun. It's so much fun. Jealousy. Yeah. Let's talk about jealousy right off the top for newbie couples getting started in a lifestyle on their journey. I think they think of jealousy as how do I feel when I see my partner with somebody else? Well, we've been through various stages of jealousy so much so that that's why we went so slow, like even kissing someone. We thought we might be a little jealous about it. Right out of the gate, it comes from the fact that we're pretty monogamish people. I've said it before that we're probably not even cut out for this E&M stuff. Yeah, we're not really E&M. We need to be in the same room, on the same bed, and now all lights are green and we're getting there. But over time, you start to do things that you never thought that you would have originally done and some of those stem from a position of jealousy. And I mean, prior to the lifestyle, if I had heard that Leo had kissed someone like in a work environment or something, I would have been that's cause that's cheating. I mean, that is not okay. And now the stuff we do, you're just like it's laughable. But we talk. We communicate. And everything is out on the table. There's no deception. I think the first time we encountered jealousy and rightfully so was our first threpple with Lana. And the reason is, is because you're delving into a deeper end of the pool because a threpple has a lot of three dimensional emotions involved. Well, I think there was other jealousy bits and bubbles that happened prior to that. Like the first time a girl gave you a blow job and she took it all. I think I felt some, like I'm like, it was, I felt a tinge of jealousy. Like, oh, well, that's kind of a special thing to do. It's a fair point. And I think you felt little bits and bubbles of that as well. Yeah. I felt like I managed my feelings better in that department, which is surprising because before we got into the lifestyle, I was extremely overprotective of you. Yeah. I wasn't like the type who's just going to be flirting in my daily vanilla life. Like that was kind of a no go. And also we come from a position, at least me, where I didn't get into the lifestyle as a cheat code to get strange. Before we ever met, I had a lot of experience. He wanted a cheat code to have more sex with me. Yes. That's all it was. That all meant more sex with my lovely cat. Before we even got into the lifestyle, we were going to places like Vegas, Amsterdam, Paris, and it was all really in an effort to try to connect as a couple. To get me out of mommy mode, because you know, mommy mode can get you, yeah, a little unsexual. And I think that happens to a lot of couples out there. Yeah. We went behind the red light district window with one of the ladies and she didn't touch Leo at all. It was more about she gets to watch us and tell us what to do because it gave us the opportunity for more sex. We went to the mask and in the first five minutes downstairs in the playrooms, somebody said, you fuck my wife and cat who was five sheets to the wind. A few moments later. Is it five sheets to the wind? Three sheets. Who's counting? Okay. That's because it was my first time and there's no way you're going to get me in there sober. Now five is more fun than three. If five is five. Yes. Yes. Lots of m's. I actually said yes. You told me to go for it. I know. I would. Oh my God. That would have been caused for like some serious arguments. We were not prepared for that. So luckily Leo aired on the side of caution. He knew it was a trump. What do you mean? Air on the side of caution? It's a trump? You talking about cooler heads prevail? I didn't have any interest in going there. But the girls, they could touch. It'd be hot. And so he said to his girl, we are looking at vagina, clitoris, sex. And that was the first girl who touched me and now look at me with a sapphic swing? I've come so far. Now I don't have any anecdotal evidence for this, but I just sort of suspect that the But to people who do get into the lifestyle as a cheat code to get strange, you know, there are a lot of couples that say, when we got married, we were each other's first or I didn't experience much sexually before we had met. Right. They want to explore things they've never done before necessarily. And I think that maybe if you go into it with that mindset, maybe you don't have as many feelings of jealousy. Whereas for me, you are the blueprint for my ideal girl. I know, isn't he sweet? He's so sweet. Except all the girls he loves to play with, not all of them, but a lot of them, all have a certain look about them and it's not me. We don't play with blondes very often. Throw me under the bus. Well, that's because there's not a lot of blondes really that we've encountered in the lifestyle. We do have a couple in our life, but it's usually those brunettes. Petite brunettes. Is that what you're talking about? Maybe a redhead. Oh. Want to get away? Back to jealousy. I found a hair on my jeans. Chinny, chin, chin. When we got into the car the next day and I held it up and I realized this hair doesn't belong to anybody in the car and it was very fiery red. Yes. That might have happened. I had to encourage her to leave a little hair down there to see if the curtains match the drapes. Terrible. God. Back to jealousy. Really, the first bout of jealousy was with Lana. You guys probably heard it in episode 69, the first time we decided to go full for him. You may talk, you may communicate, you may have everything above board. I know exactly what to expect. This is not something we're changing mid-play and then you do it and you're like, oh my god. I can't unsee it. I was not ready to see that. Tears ensued. It was really, really emotional. It took me a long time to get past that and that's jealousy. I was jealous. I had moments with Lana where I was just full on jealous. I think it's also natural to have feelings of make guarding, especially in a trouble situation. If that's your first time doing it, I think as a girl or a guy, you may have feelings of what do I do with this? You have almost a polylight situation in your midst. And I feel pretty strongly that as a newbie couple, you need to understand that these feelings are very likely to happen. Having your partner, the first time I kissed a guy, which was after even he'd gone full, he had a tinge of, I wasn't expecting a full on make out session going on. I think that was feelings of jealousy for you. For me, I've always visualized things in my head. I run them back before we do it. I can get a sense for how I'm going to react to it. But you told me in the moment with him, why don't you go ahead and kiss him? We were already kind of into our little threesome thing. And you told me that after the fact, yeah, that was a little hard. It wasn't quite expecting that. Had you not visualized it? I think if we're going to go and just say an out and out moment that I didn't care for, the flip, it would be the flip with Vlad. And it was because it was the first time it was just a full throated, full swap experience. And I had left the room for 30 seconds and in that amount of time, when I came back, he had you in a missionary position where there was no place for me to get in there. And like you said, I'm not a watcher. And I took that more as a sign of disrespect rather than jealousy, I guess. I don't know. For me, jealousy stems from when I feel like you're leaning in at an emotional level. He gets jealous when I sext people. Hold up. Wait a minute. Something ain't right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's where, because he knows that they have my full attention. So we had issues, not issues, but he didn't like certain people I sexted and I had to disconnect from them. Yeah, I still don't like the sextor. Oh. Sexting is probably my least favorite thing that you do. You don't like my tattoo, boy. But I am trying to give you some kind of latitude because I know that sometimes when the MFFs and the MFMs are not in balance, that helps to supplement it a little bit for you. Oh, it's so hot. It's so hot. I like sexting. But I like sexting with a partner that I'm not going to meet necessarily. But I'm still going to say I don't like it. And it makes you a little jealous because somebody has my attention. It feels like somebody's coming in and unilaterally communicating with you. And that's jealousy. I just don't like it. And so if you want to protect yourselves against jealousy, keep it in the four way chats, probably do limited sexting because it does create a bit of an emotional connection. Yeah, I'm never going to be OK with you sexting somebody that we actually see or plan to say. Right. So my sexting kink because it's pretty strong. I'm doing it with people that I'm not going to meet, which is an interesting rule of thumb, at least for our personal. We gerrymander the hell out of everything. Have you noticed that? So here's another one of our gerrymandering. Well, in the realm of jealousy for a new becouple, you obviously think about how am I going to feel when I see my partner doing something with somebody else? Am I going to need eyebleach? I'm not going to be able to unsee that. Are you ready for it? But there's another jealousy that's going to surprise you. Right. Because we have gotten over all that interpersonal jealousies like 100 percent. He's even passed the VLOD flip. We've now gone to pornboy and it was a very different experience. Yeah, I was filming some of it for you. Because I knew you're really enjoying this. You've been really waiting for this a long time. So it allowed me to really enjoy it, knowing that he's OK with this. And like with pushy, pushy galore, I film it and I enjoy watching you. Yeah, it's kind of wild because if you'd asked me five years ago, whether we'd be in the lifestyle, I'd tell you have your head examined. Would you say would you have believed that your wife is going to sleep with a porn star? You're like, I still don't like hearing that, do you? Only if I have a second career as a porn star. About to go back now doesn't bother me at all. Actually, I don't feel that whatsoever. If that's not a testament to the evolution of our journey, then I don't know what. And I'm telling you, you all are going to evolve in some way, shape or form. You are not going to stay the same person you were when you started. Yeah, we had somebody who sent us some mail and they said, I can't believe you guys full swapped. You guys said you were going to be saw swan forever. As I sit here today, it almost seems a little bit silly if you stay in the lifestyle long enough. If you don't prematurely ejaculate. Will you be a full swap couple? Eventually, the answer is probably yes. It could take you seven to 12 years, but be that as it may, you're going to inch your boundaries along. But if you speed run your way through the lifestyle like Leo, yeah, it's fun. We're doing it in dog years. Our two years is probably somebody else's seven or eight years. Right. So really, if we Jerry Mander with dog years, it took us seven years to go full swap. But as I sit here today and you talk about a porn boy, that doesn't bother me whatsoever. Like when can we see him again? Absolutely. The only caveat is I want them to be exceptional single males. I do not want them to be mid. I don't want this to be a cheat code for people that I would feel I'm settling for to have sex with me. Absolutely. Yes. I said it. So as long as they're exceptional single males, I'll let that happen seven days a week and twice on Sundays, even though that would make you a certified baddie. Boo, you whore for the streets. I'm lucky if it's once a month and when you go 11 weeks, you're still the lowest. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. So it's my full swap girl in the lifestyle. But the other jealousy that is going to come out of nowhere that you're not going to see come in is your jealousy that you have for your play partners. Because we're all supposed to be in this E and M world. I know there are some people who have like an exclusive couple. That is like few and far between. Most of us are seeing lots of different people and it's supposed to be OK. Sometimes I think you'll have veteran swingers who might say if you feel feelings of jealousy, then maybe you're not cut out for the lifestyle. I think that's bullshit. I do because what you're dealing with is love, sex, dopamine, hormones. I mean, of course, you're going to feel. And so some of those feelings might be jealousy and it might be for your play partners. First, it starts with your significant other. But then sometimes it does extend to your play partners. We've heard it said before. There'll be a couple and they'll say we went to the club. There was this couple that we played with previously. We said hello. Then they went off and they were talking with another couple. Is it odd that we feel a little jealous? And I think it's more common almost to feel jealous of your play partners because you probably don't have the communication that you have going on with your significant other. So Leo and I don't feel jealous at all anymore as far as when we're playing with people. But damn, we feel jealous with our play partners. We've had a pretty decent sample size to be able to speak on the subject today. And it goes back as far as Lana. We sat here in a car. We're always in a car talking to her maybe weeks into meeting her. Yeah, it was before the Bliss cruise. So it's probably only about a month into meeting her. And Halloween was coming up. We were talking about going away for Halloween. She was talking about going to a party in the Bay Area and we both were feeling jealous. And we start to have this conversation about I don't know about you, but we'd probably be willing to go exclusive. And so we decided within a month of meeting her three weeks, maybe let's just all be exclusive and not play with anyone because neither one of us liked the idea of the other going off. And I get it. It makes total sense. And today on our second threeple with Poocher, I love how candid she is sometimes. And she'll just say, that makes me jealous to hear you with somebody else. Well, you know, back to Lana, I'll get back to her in a second. We then opened it up after about four or five months, mostly because I wanted some male attention. It was time to kind of see what else was out there. We were very cautious to only tell her about the MFMs we were having. We would not talk about any other unicorns that we were playing with. We didn't want to make her feel jealous. Well, we've said that we are pretty monogamish people. And part of those tendencies is when we're with other play partners, we try to protect their feelings, we try to protect their heart. We'd like to have them feel like they are the most important person. Because I think it's only natural that they're probably not going to want to hear if we're off playing with somebody else. Now, it's an interesting nuance because I think that when we're playing with a girl, they don't mind hearing about us having an MFM or maybe another couple. Right. But if you're playing with a girl, another unicorn, I have no problem hearing about her playing with another single male, but I don't want to hear about her playing with a couple. And the reason for that is because you feel like you're almost getting a direct comparison. If, for example, like, do you not like us enough as a couple? So I don't want to hear about you playing with other couples. Poocher came back and said, oh, I just played with another couple. And it was the most fantastic experience I'd ever had. And the guy was really handsome, which we would like for her to have those experiences, but we're in a bit of a don't ask, don't tell. She doesn't tell us about the couple. She's playing with that we know are in her life. And we don't tell her about any of the unicorns or females we're playing with only the single males. I think she wondered the first time when she broached the subject and she said, I feel jealous when I hear about you with somebody else. And we just said back to her, well, we feel jealous the same. And I think we liked it because it made us realize that we probably have that in common. And so we're going to both treat it with the sensitivity that I think it deserves. So if you're playing with another couple, if you're playing with a single female, be mindful that they have feelings too. And even though we're in this E&M world, they might want to feel like they're the most special. Like if I'm playing with someone, I'd like to think that we're the most special couple, whether we are or not is another thing entirely. But I'd like to believe we are. And I want you to believe you're the most special because when you're with us, you are the most special whoever it is we're playing with. Now, our circumstances a little bit unusual because we do to a podcast, but we did start the podcast before we ever played with anybody. Right. So I know whoever we play with can listen to exactly what we're doing. I guess the caveat is that if you don't want to hear that, then don't listen to it. You can know for sure that when we're with you, we're not going to be talking about other people because we're not thinking about other people. We're thinking about just you in that moment. And you are the only person when we're with you. And so you need to think about that. You just think, ah, I'm in an E&M world. Understand that your play partners have feelings and they might feel jealousy. And I guess on the other end of the spectrum is you could be somebody who has none of those feelings of jealousy whatsoever. You don't really care. I think for us, when we first started in the lifestyle, the dreaded P word, polyamory. Oh my God. You felt like that is so dangerous. And I think we still feel like kitchen table poly. I think kitchen table poly means you've got like three or four people sitting around the table. They're all sleeping with each other. It's just like a free for all. I don't think it ever ends well. Yeah, I don't think I've heard many stories about it being a success. Maybe there's some survivor bias there. But for us, we're far from poly. But I think the further we've gotten into our lifestyle journey, we realize that the P word is not so scary after all. We're more poly light in the sense that we want to become really good friends with the people we're playing with. We've had a number of our play partners tell us that they love us. And we've said the same back to them. But I don't want to sit at the kitchen table with my play partner sitting next to them with someone they're playing with. That's kitchen table poly. But we allow feelings and emotions to come into play because sometimes it makes the experience so much more full and rich in a lot of circumstances. We're there for it. And so that does have a little bit of a wrinkle. If you're feeling a little jealous about your play partners, it does mean that your play partners can't necessarily come and regale you with, oh, my God, I can't believe what I just did this last weekend because you can't really be a spicy diary and a play partner. Yeah, I think that that's what you've come to the conclusion about is that it's too difficult. You can pretty much either be a spicy diary or you can be a play partner. But I don't think it can be both unless all you're talking about are MFM. Maybe that's fine. But if you're talking about other couples, otherwise, I think it feels like there's drawing a direct comparison to a like for like if, for example, you're playing with another couple and then that couple that you were playing with went and had an MFM or they had an MFF. I don't think that would bother. I would care at all. And whereas if I played with a couple, I would think that if I played with another couple, they'd feel a little jealous and I probably keep that on the down low. And that says nothing about the fact that they can go and play with those people. We're not expecting anybody. And I don't think you should. No exclusivity whatsoever. Unless you're having that conversation. That's ridiculous. It's just you may not want to hear the gory details. And I mean, we're telling you that from experience and it's also, it's not just us. We know it's a fatal flaw of ours that we are really. Yeah, that one. And I even told the sapphic swingers when we were sitting around the kitchen island, doing some kitchen table poly with the Shakutari board and the espresso martinis. Yeah, she makes a mean espresso martini. I go to Denver just to go to their dungeon and have some espresso martinis again. Doesn't have anything to do with scissoring toy. I don't think you even try the scissoring toy, but I did get the strap on on me. I didn't wear a strap on there. Did I? I think that the only thing I would say that could have made it even better is next time it could have been even more aggressive. Yes, I want you guys to attack me next time. Devour me. And I heard you say something about a Sibian. And if you own a Sibian, I want to ride that like a bucking bronco. They have a Sibian. I don't know. I heard them mentioned it in passing. I felt like they have one missed opportunity. Yes. So, you know, there is that. I just need to find a damn pesky MFM for that weekend. And rain check. But back to the jealousy that you might feel when your significant other is with somebody new, when you go and you do those experiences. Yes. First, you need to probably go slow. And so every little thing like, OK, they're kissing, they're making out. OK, this is a new thing. I can handle this emotion. Now, some people do go from zero to 100 and they don't have too many issues with it. But I don't know. Not a lot of people have that. So we're just really talking to the ones that probably have more issues as far as feeling a little jealous. And so for us, it was a two year journey to get there. OK, mine might have been 14 months. Hazel is 14. Mine was 24. But now we're both at the same place and it's really feels wonderful. And I think we've said it before, it was like ripping a bandaid off at 14 months. Mine was like. That's why the jealousy reared its head so bad and it came up a handful of times, probably half a dozen times with Lana, where I would just have an unbridled feeling of jealousy. Yeah, you actually had it happen so often that we were keeping a running total for a little while. It was we would have an amazing threesome. But then I would just have at the end, something would bubble up. And I told Leo, I can't help it. It's just happening. Yeah. And you know, it was a freak out moment. The kind where you look and you think, oh, my gosh, I can't believe we're doing this right now in front of somebody. It was ripping the bandaid off. I highly advise soaking it off like we did with me. And then Vlad, all we had was the flip. That was the only moment that was like, oh, yeah, mine was like soaking it in the bathtub. It came off less. But, you know, when those things happened, it wasn't entirely fair to the person in the room with us. I think she was very patient. I think part of the reason for that is because she didn't have much experience being a unicorn to a couple. And so we were all kind of figuring out and fumbling as we went. And that just worked. But in hindsight, when I look back, I realized that in a way it was just endearing because that was just your way. You just cared. Oh, you care. And you just didn't. Yeah, I didn't care. Just kidding. He actually cares so much, which probably has a lot to do with why I've been on such a long drought. Not that he's like cockblocked things, but in some ways, we're going really slow to make sure we're OK with where we're at. I wanted to be really good ones. I don't want to just be subtly. I don't want to just do it to poor boys. Yeah, now, if you saw him, he is a freaking model. Like he loves it. I pull my phone out and I show my girlfriends. This is Vlad. This is Rage and Cajun. And they're just always a gog, like, oh, my God, look at the kind of guys you're getting. And that's what Leo wants from me. And then he doesn't feel jealous. Yeah, I think some of our play partners, sometimes they listen to the podcast and they get the impression that we just play a ton. In reality, we spend more time going places, being social, going to clubs that we go into and we leave without ever playing. We leave without even getting undressed half the time. Right. We know a lot of people who they play like every single week. It is not like that for us. And at this point in our journey, we're patient. We're patient for the right person, the right situation to come along. Yeah, we definitely got into a point in our journey where if it's not a good one, we'll just take a pass on it. We will not be in a place where we have FOMO, where we feel like we've paid our ticket, we should at least have the sexy fund that we were looking for. We don't have a problem just walking out and leaving empty handed. It's called we're growing up. I mean, growing up. We all grow. We all grow up. But you know, when it comes to our play partners, we've just met some of the most fantastic people in our lives and they're all wonderful, wonderful. If you've made it as far as our bedroom, then you have a very special place. I can't imagine not being in the lifestyle and not having had the opportunity to meet the people we've met. Like they shouldn't have been in our lives, right? If we hadn't like stepped through the wardrobe in Narnia and now you're like, oh my God, like these people are in my life. It's amazing. It really is amazing. And I think that what comes with that territory is, yes, do we allow emotions to come into play in those situations, ships in those relationships? Because they're very meaningful. A hundred percent. Does that mean that sometimes one of those emotions can be jealousy? Yes, absolutely. 100 percent. And how do we handle that? Generally speaking, we don't discuss other play dynamics with them, at least not specific details and especially not apples to apples. So make sure that we're sensitive to the feelings on the other side and their feelings and their heart. We want to make sure we take good care of that. And generally they take good care of our hearts and that's nice. So if you liked what you heard, go ahead and either subscribe or I didn't know how that works. Just come and listen. We might post once a week. We might post a couple times a month. I don't know. You might get bored and stop doing it. So you might come and listen while it's still going. Otherwise, we'll lose interest. Tell us how much you like it. Yeah, leave a comment. That'd be cool. We love it. Where can they leave a comment? I don't know. Maybe we'll also comment. We don't have a website yet. OK.