1 in 5 of Your Friends Are Narcissists | Dr. Ramani Durvasula

If you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. Or did I project it on other people? So narcissists are miserable. They're miserable. Miserable. Today, I am joined by one of the world's leading experts on narcissism and narcissistic abuse. She hosts the award-winning podcast Navigating Narcissism. Dr. Ramili Dervosila. So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist? It's not easy. The key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early. If you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like get away from them. This is dangerous. But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic? Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bath water. Right, right. This boy. It's unfortunately a one in five. You date five people. What are the odds? Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible? The bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love? Is that possible? So the... Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. We have Dr. Ramili in the house. Very excited. Thank you for being here. Thank you. You have been doing intensive work on psychology and specifically about narcissism more recently. And really your content has been blowing up online. Thanks. You've got an amazing book out called Don't Know Who I Am. Don't You Know Who I Am? Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement and Incivility. And why is narcissism such a big topic, especially right now in our society? It's interesting. It wasn't for a very long time. It's fascinating to have been studying something when nobody cared about it. You were a nerd when I was like... I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about. Everyone... I was literally back room of a lab and everyone forgot about me. And I was content because I'm a nerd. I'm geeked out. I was like, this is fascinating. And then a lot of things happened. If anyone ever asked me, this is my theory on it, is I think... It's interesting. If you... There's a book from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lash called The Culture of Narcissism. And in that book he really gets... And this is the 70s. And he really gets into issues like materialism and also the falling apart of American community structures and family structures. And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures. But I think that misses something. Then it was kind of quiet. Like this has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in mental health. And then reality TV happened. Social media happened. We had to witness it all. Yeah. And we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now. Political dramas and fights and... Lots of... And materialism was on the rise. When we look at materialism, social media, and reality TV, that kind of triple threat where everything was about shameless self-promotion. Everything was about validation seeking. Look at me. No, look at me. No, look at me. My life's better than yours. And it was that... It was... I'll never forget the day, actually. I was... When I... Someone told me about social media. It was in that space between my space and Facebook. The space were here. And I had small, small children at the time. And I think I was up late. And somebody said, you gotta look at this thing called Facebook, right? And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And so, at the time, I was even married. So, really, no social life. And I look at it and it's that moment, that penny drop moment, where I could feel that dread in my stomach. Because though, like, a ghost appeared in the door and I thought to myself, oh my God, this narcissism thing is about to blow up. Because before that, think about it. If you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house. Right? Like, no one was gonna... You had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work, especially men in that era. And then other people, like, would get it by, like, going to social events, going to parties, maybe succeeding at something. But it was a different game. Going to the gym, maybe. Maybe going to the gym. But now, all of it, like, selling at something visible, like sports or performing or, like, singing or something like that. But then I was like, oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are gonna be able to get validation just sitting at home. And I thought this narcissism thing's gonna blow up. That was 2008 when I had that revelation. I started telling people, you know, people said, like, oh honey, you're just, you're running off in your head, get some sleep, like, you're acting crazy. And I said, no, no, no, this is gonna blow up. And then it blew up. Now in that time, we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows, like, you know, Survivor and things like that. I'm like, this is interesting. And then we'd start seeing more and more and more of the attention-seeking reality TV, housewife type shows and all of that. The Bachelor and the... The Bachelor and I thought, oh, no, no, no. And then the political winds changed. And the word came into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you studied. You don't want to care about it. Like, nobody cared about it. And then also, it's in the mainstream. The world had changed and it became mainstream. Exactly. And, but another thing that was happening too was this, I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at personality issues because I was working with folks who were working in community clinics and they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say, they would look frazzled and I'll say, hey, what's up? And they'll say, some of these patients, they're so terrible and they're ruining everyone's lives. And my doubt was that there were some patients who come in entitled and grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, that's interesting. These people are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good health care to other people, they themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them so they're not getting good health care. And then a few years later, I was noticing a pattern in my patients over and over again. They kept, it's like they were all talking about the same relationship. And I thought, this is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism because it's clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you. Once they got educated on these patterns, they were making changes like this. Some were getting divorced, some were splitting up, some were saying, I'm going to set boundaries. I mean, it was instant change. And they said, we were in couples therapy for five years and it always about marriage is hard. You got to communicate. I'm like communicating with a narcissist is, I don't know, it's like, it's impossible. It's just screaming into an abyss. Like there's no point. Wow. So is there hope for people in marriages, if they're in a relationship with a narcissist to actually heal the relationship and improve it, or is it just going to be hard the rest of your life? Going on a probability basis, the answer is no. I think it's going to be hard always. Are there unicorns out there? Sure. But the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic. I mean, we're talking about daily commitment. On the person who is a narcissist. Then the person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever's on their mind. It's fascinating because I have worked with, I'd say 25% of the clients I've worked with in my clinical practice for a long time have been narcissistic. Why would they even come to work with you if they're narcissistic? Because something's going wrong in their lives. Their marriage is blowing up. They're having some sort of public shaming. Their career isn't going well. They have to listen. Laws, dude. They feel the world is against them. In this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy. Somebody's wanting to complain. Every so often they're given an ultimatum, maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone. Maybe they get caught in an affair. Then they're told that wife or husband or partner or spouse will say, we're not staying together unless you get therapy, which is a fool's errand. Because if someone else is telling them to do it, even if they do it on their own, there usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change. Personality doesn't change unless you're doing therapy every week and holding yourself accountable on an event. Listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed. I'm a little bit more confident now. That's not my personality. That's just time served. Right. It's like, I put in more reps. Yes. I put in more reps so I'm like, now I know I can do this thing. But it's not them. I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I was an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person. That's just who I am. When is our personality shaped? There's two pieces of personality. We're born, the genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament. Our temperament. Our temperament. You're born and you're either a crier or not a crier or you're ... I can make it ultra simple. Some kids out there who have really difficult temperaments are born into the world difficult. Talk to a parent, they're kids who are difficult to soothe. To make them stop crying, to help them sleep. As time goes on, they're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy, fighty. They get to school. They can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble and none of the adults like them. These kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, sit down, stop that. Don't do that. There's even this vibe these kids get. Everybody really wants to spend time with them because they're real handful. Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really change that when you're five. No, you can't. But the difficult temperament's a risk factor for the adult narcissistic personality. Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. It's not a slam dunk, but it's definitely when we tell that story backwards, every narcissistic client I've ever worked with without exception had a difficult temperament as a child. Most often I'd get lucky. We'd phone the parent during therapy and say, can we talk about this? Sometimes they don't ask the parent and the parent would come clean on that and say, yeah, you were a real hit because you had siblings. They'd compare them to siblings. Some siblings have this great easy temperament. It's not quite that. Temperament is that biological part of our personality. How you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an entrant, uncle, you'll say, wow, I have such a similar personality to that. That's the genetic side. All the rest of it is shaped by the world. Environment, parents, society, how you were treated and what you're exposed to. If you had a challenging temperament growing up, is there hope for you to shift your personality into a different style with environment? I think so. I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met where they're at. Once you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy and you get them into athletics or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that, and you really are with them. Instead of saying you're being so bad, you're so difficult, like, whoa, look at that rocky you built. Or like, oh my gosh, you ran 10 miles today, are you through the bar? This is great. Let's do it together. They have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. This is where it's interesting. There are a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climb mountains, that kind of thing. Sometimes, a parent's got them into these things because the kid was just a bolus of energy. The parents would really encourage them, might even go with them, like, go back with them or whatever. Interesting. I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, they feel like they have a safe base to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver. They can relax more into it. They have success experiences. Maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they feel loved no matter what, whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not. They're loved and that they have these other outlets and that a school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know of that things line up like that? I can count on one hand the number because I know who got that line up. I mean, who had all the support. We love you no matter what. It's very challenging. It's interesting because I interviewed Kobe Bryant before he passed, obviously, and he said his father, one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13, he said he didn't score one point the whole summer in this summer competition league. He said, my father told me, no matter what, I'm going to love you. Whether you score zero points or you do the highest score, I'm going to love you no matter what you do. Am I how good or how bad you are? I love you no matter what. He said that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, I'm going to go out and go for it. No matter what happens, I'm loved is the way he explained it. I thought that was interesting, but not a lot of people have had the school support and parents support and sibling support and the encouragement. It sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth. A human being has the same essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting a safe base, a safe place of attachment, a sense of being loved no matter what. Yeah, their behavior could be called out. No, you cannot tear up the living room. That behavior is not okay. I love you. I love you whether you get the 13 points or the no points. You're still grounded, but I love you. You're still grounded. I love you. That consistency and safety, but it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014. In this paper, they were talking about how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid. One thing we're seeing right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing. Celebrated for just being. Celebrated for like, you're just so great. You're saying, well, what should we tell kids if they're not great? Well, great means something. Great is excelling. So you love a child. You cultivate their strengths. But the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be. They're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over. You're all that. You're special. You shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world. Well, then they get to adulthood and the slings and arrows happen and they are not having it. And that's where you see that on top of everything else can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child. Just overindulge. Interesting. And what happens is they're almost overindulged for their outsides and you're so special, but their emotional world isn't nourished. So nobody is sitting with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, come on, let's all be happy. It's a lot of that. And that's a dangerous game to play with. Would you say with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy family, let's say they got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them discipline, but love and all these things in the best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated? Or how does that actually happen? So the problem, if you say someone had all the fundamentals, the safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma, the great values, all of those things, supportive educational environment, all of that, you still will have a handful, but you will have dropped a probability from here down to here. It's like a race. You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Creating adult narcissism is a complex interblend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood narcissism. At the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma and childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse, because that results in inconsistent caregivers. And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adult narcissistic personality, but here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma and childhood don't become narcissistic. You see what I'm saying? You're talking about risk factors. You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over, like, you're so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing. That's another model towards narcissistic personality development, conditional love. Kobe Bryant's father, I'm only going to love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up. Now imagine that happening a thousand times, 10,000 times. I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you, whatever, the child learns that they're all love is conditional, which is really, that's transactional, basically. All narcissistic relationships and adulthood are transactional. Interesting. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment. And attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life. It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One, singular. You need that. That person who is there, who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it, you need that safe. It's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissistic. So if you have a secure attachment, you're less likely to be narcissistic. If you don't have that. But if you have an anxious attachment and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. The mommy drops them and they lose it. The person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again, like, almost like, how could you leave me? You abandoned me for five hours. And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with the narcissistic style in adulthood. Can you break down the differences between narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and then also how you spot them? So there's a big difference. If I was at a chalkboard here, I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles. Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy. Lots. The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles, the exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement, absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure. And they are very insecure. And lots of feelings of inadequacy. But that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomach ache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but there's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that the top's going to get blown off and we're going to be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism. Oh my gosh. It can't take me back. Hey, it's interesting, you got some dust on your shirt and you're like, oh really? And you start coming at me. Oh no, you've got this on yours. I'm not even talking about me. You've got this and this and this criticizing you. Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against the shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure. Calm. Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system and it's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know is fight or flight or freeze. And that fight, flight, freeze, and there's even a fourth part to it called fawn, which we could talk about, but that autonomic reaction that like boom, adrenaline got eyes wide open kind of reaction, that's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone had a $100 bill hanging out their wallet, never could I ever. Like I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like, no, I have a very probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate wouldn't go up and they'd just take it, steal it. So they have no anxiety, no excitement around it, no excitement, no anxiety, and they're very stress resistant. And that's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're going to be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say cut those hundred thousand jobs and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell's breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is, but there is this coldness and a callousness because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy. Interesting. And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure, and profit and mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopaths. Really? Yeah. The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy. The psychopaths don't have that. They're not insecure. They're not insecure. No. I mean, if you see a psychopath get mad, it's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get done. You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you. They'll get rid of you. Yeah. Exactly. They'll calmly have someone say, like, I'll literally look at you if I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me. I'd be like, and I'd become. And then I don't know whether that means you'd kill them, fire them or whatever, but no problem with that. Right. And very easily. They don't have the emotion. They don't have empathy. No empathy. Does narcissists have empathy? Narcissists have. We tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call, I like to call it, instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is. They know. They use it against you. Oh my gosh. They use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily use it against you, but like, if they want to get you to do something, oh man, I heard your mom say. Oh man. Oh my gosh, how's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like, it's rough. You know, my mom was sick. She was really sick for a while too. I get all that. It's still before. You know, it's a rapport and then they're getting something from you. Oh my gosh. Right? So it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them, that's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic. They know what the feel, they know what's right. They know, or I should say, they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it, but they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. I need something from him. Somebody said his mom's sick, so let me work the mom angle here because that's going to help him feel better. What they don't have is any regard for, so they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you, and someone's like the next week when they're fully done with you and say, hey, his mom got sick or and be like, yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? So it's very cold when they're done. So that's why people say, well, don't tell me they don't have empathy because it seemed like they cried at that movie or they were really understanding my feelings. I thought they needed something at that point. So what was the most, the scariest narcissist? What was it called? The most dangerous, malignant narcissist. So can you explain again what that is? So let's talk about, let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core. The inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed or stressed, a sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage, a reactive sensitivity to criticism. So when anyone points out anything, they, wow, they come at them, blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self-serving. Insecure. Very deeply insecure, lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? It is actually fascinating to watch that moment. If you could put it in slow-mo when the shame gets activated. I don't know. They don't get the girl or they don't get the guy or they don't get the job and the rage, it just, it pops out like that. Oh man. Guy is an idiot. I feel like I'm so reactive to this, not in a negative way, but I feel I'm remembering many things in my life. In many relationships, I have always wanted to do therapy with people and in multiple relationships, they were resistant. They never wanted to do it. They said, no, I'll never do therapy. So resistant. Eventually getting into therapy. So it's so funny you're saying this because I feel like, I don't know, I'm just having these flashbacks here, but and everything you're saying here, it just seems like crazy to me. So I feel like maybe I might have been with some narcissist, maybe I haven't with everyone, but I'm wondering what attracted me to maybe some people that had this when originally I didn't know they had this. It didn't seem like they had these things. It seemed like they were loving and supportive and kind and generous, but the more you say these things, I'm just like, okay, that's interesting. Just noticing. So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations. Charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also- Can you have those things and not be narcissistic? You can. Because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like- So here's where it gets interesting, right? You can be curious. And you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being. Like you really are like- Someone who is confident and caring. When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I do- So unicorn. I literally am like, all right, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look goo goo eyes because I'm thinking. And then of course I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna find. I'm gonna find what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. And I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers. I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous. No, upfront. You know, all, it's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense. And you miss the little things. Yeah. And people, and if you either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it. You justify it. Yeah. You know, well, he's got a big job or she's really stressed or she doesn't mean that or that's just their culture. Oh my gosh. You just said that someone I was with was like, well, this is my culture. No, no, no. I'm not saying that all the time. This is my culture. I go. No. And I tell people. No empathy. I've heard that excuse and I get to say this because I'm from a very different culture. And I'll say, oh no, I do not know a culture where meanness is permitted. And to say to that person, if that's your culture, then go with God. Exactly. Because they're working with me. Well, you're squirming at someone and being angry and not regulating your emotions is not a culture. No, that's not a culture. And, but yet, but yet, I'm amazed at how often I was listening. I was reading an article by a linguist recently and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures. And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only, it's contemptuous interrupting. What's that mean, like dismissive interrupting? It's dismissive like, okay, all right. You're talking and then I not only cut in, but it's basically like, your point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. I know it's really interesting. Okay. So you, you share some of these signs of malignant. No, that's okay. So let's go back to the court. Yes, court. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about. Yes. Now the problem with narcissism is their subtypes. Oh my gosh. Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard male. I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the, the big charming confident, I'm the one, I'm the best, no insight, very little empathy kind of, but very like big sales person. That's the grandiose narcissist. Wow. Grandios. This is someone who says when you meet them in the first day, I love you. Yeah. They're often like, we're going to be together forever. Once in a lifetime love story, this is magical. Right? Isn't that? Oh man, flashbacks for me. Grandios. Okay. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing. They are more controlling. They're a little bit more scary. They're sadistic. They're paranoid. What if they have both of those things? Actually they can. They can. And what would, that's a horrific combination because then that person's real charming on the front end and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary and controlling. When we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissist, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the Me Too era, a lot of those folks from malignant narcissists. So how do you, and Tyler, if we have a whiteboard in there, can you bring one with a sharpie or with a dry race marker? I feel like I'm going off to all these directions. I think we have a small whiteboard if you find one or see if Matt has one. So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or you're bossed and it seemed like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check, they've got a lot of these things. But the first six months seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them is not going to happen. It's a fool's errand. So doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the bandaid and get out or how does it happen? So it's not that simple. We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin and they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off for my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you said, rip off the bandaid. So if you're, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse and they've found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. Completely blocking, cutting off. Completely done. And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to have no more contact. You have a little bit, you're just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently. It's going to be holding onto it. Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're going to have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I, you know, this is called radical acceptance. This is never going to change. This is who they are. This is who they are. This is it. So, and then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, you tuck your end of deposition. Yes. No. Okay. Sounds good. Sure. Now, narcissists don't like that because they love the fight. They're going to bait you. They're going to bait you. And they, when I tell you when they bait you, they don't play. They go for everything. They go for everything that's going to get them. Make something else. They're going to make your stuff up. They start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it. Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right? And so then at some people, people take that bait and then the narcissist is like, game on, you know, and they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study that came out from Ohio State University, Ohio Boyd, and phenomenal study that came out this year. And over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fight. And they want the fight. So they bait you. You got to be made a steal. Don't defend. Don't engage. Don't play. This is crazy. To not get into the fight. I speak names here, but in a previous relationship, I remember I learned to let go of jealousy in my 20, when I was in my teens and 20s, I was jealous. And you know, if my girlfriend or the person I was dating was with other guys, I was just didn't know how to handle it. I was afraid. I was like, oh, what's happening? It was just like jealous. Then I remember a friend of mine was like, you've got to kill the jealousy monster inside of you. This is not serving you and your relationships. If someone cheats, you're going to find out about it and then you move on or whatever. But being jealous about something that's not happening is just making you anxious and worried. And it's hurting you and it's hurting the relationship. So it took me a while, but I learned in my 30s. And in a specific relationship, it was with someone who got a lot of male attention, let's say, a lot, always. And I was never, I never was insecure or jealous about it. I think I was just so confident. I was like, you know, whatever. I mean, this person was getting a lot of attention in public and in line or whatever they did. And I was just like, okay, like it never bothered me. And I don't know why. I think maybe just because I'm older and I learned more maturity and I was just, I felt so confident. I was like, okay, if they want to go to someone else, they'll be with them. If I'm not the right fit for you, why would I be jealous and insecure? But it's almost like they always wanted me to react to something. Yes. If you want to be with them, go be with them. And I never reacted. And they are always trying to be like, oh, this person took my number today. And I was like, okay, well, what do you want? There's a name for that. And that thing you're talking about is called triangulation. Triangulation. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me. This person DM me or this person's hitting on me. They're always trying to, and they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. What's there? So jealousy is normal. We are a, actually, we're a pair bonded species. We human beings. We pretty much are about generally, normatively, have sex with one person. People are like, nah, that person cheated on me. I said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous. With one partner at that moment. They weren't banging you. They were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. But we tend to be pair bonded. We tend to be monogamous. So jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly. If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy. I'm with a person. If somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring. That's all that Darwinian stuff. Pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy, though. That starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and negative mood states. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got a skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples or worked with individuals and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband. I kind of feel sad because I'm like, yeah, this thing's kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with. Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy. So I think of my partner, ironically on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were going to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the drive, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I'm like, huh, he doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling. I got still, got a dog in the fight. But it doesn't mean you're like, for days, letting it stress you out and talking to him about it. Only because we're talking about it here. Yeah, of course. And so the paranoia jealousy is some, I mean. That's a narcissist thing. That's a paranoid. Yeah, okay. So I remember in this specific relationship, it was like, stupid, make things up. She'd be like, oh, this person is hitting on you. And I was like, no, I didn't even know this person is. And they would just be like used against. And then it was like, well, I'm not speaking to you for a couple of days because you must be lying to me. You must not be telling me the truth. I'm like, what? It's just like kept going on and on. So yeah, if you want to use this, if you have any examples. Next time we have, yeah. I think this will be, this will be cool to show on YouTube. People will love this. Yeah. Okay. So there's a little bit of jealousy is normal. Means you care. But the, what did you say? What's the paranoid? The pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy. Yeah. That's a narcissist. That's more of a, it's more paranoid. It's more antagonistic. It's more about, you know, yeah. You're doing such accusatory. It's almost delusional. Oh my gosh. Okay. There's so much that's coming out for me. And what would you say again, are the main causes? What are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based? No, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child. The child can do no wrong. They're so wonderful. I mean, it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen. I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see, because what? Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world. Every moment being documented and shared. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data, because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this. So I did not, the only people who saw their pictures were people I actually put them in an envelope, mail the picture, but I didn't think. I came over to the house and looked at the picture book. I came to the house and looked at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who's basically were accessories to their parents' Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture. So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're, whatever, tactical? It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown or we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much of you say, oh no, it's so cute, they didn't consent. It's a vulnerability. So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool. It's not agreeing. What happens when the kids 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it. Posing and put his clothes on and do this and let's post you. In a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. You wonder, are you costuming your job for Halloween for you or for them? Or for the validation? Yeah, exactly. For the life of the engagement. Yeah, exactly. That's tough because I have friends who never show their kids stuff and then I have friends who do show their kids. And man, it's just like, yeah, how do we navigate that conversation? And how do we? We're building this airplane in the sky. Oh man. The challenge becomes then that I would say it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other, both parents, but also I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media. Right? Because what does every child want? They want their parents love. Love and attention. All they want is their parents love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interest, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful and it doesn't all have to be documented. That I'm going to talk with these psychologists, I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to. But let's say there are parents that are posting about their kids online. Maybe they have a small following, maybe it's to a private group of their friends and family. Sure. That's kind of a different game. And or it's the ones that have a bigger following. If they were going to be posting and they have a bigger following, let's say, not to their friends and family. What would be appropriate that you think psychologically in a healthy manner to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to not mess them up? Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids. And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're going to take such and such picture. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finally laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I'm only about this person's finally laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not, it's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, that's not what they want. This is not, this is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the parks. They want to go to the park, not because we're going to Disneyland. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like I've been on vacation and I've watched families like practically, I mean, literally screaming, we need this live our Christmas card. No way. And I'm like, oh my God. Pay attention, look here. Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism about the false self. Oh, narcissism is the false self. It's a mask. It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants. Oh, right. How the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies, they're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist game. Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity. It's so interesting because four years ago I wrote a book called The Mask of Mask and Linity, which is about... Interesting. And I interviewed a lot of psychologists and experts on these personality traits and these masks that men wear. And I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks, for many different years of my life to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. And then being the athlete mask, it's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one. And if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs, I was training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry. I would be moody. I would be frustrated. And I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better until I could make sure that I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong. But it's not the authentic self. Correct. And that's, maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self because it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, the humanistic psychologist and even other humanists like Abraham Maslow. So these were the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization. So if you're rid of human growth as a mountain, self-actualization is the summit. It's the top. I think in my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people and it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger and they were deeply authentic. I mean, like you did feel like you were in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. One was a man who was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now. What did that feel like? It was like absolute serenity. I felt it. I felt one with him at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep listening to him. He was a man with almost no education who, again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg and actually in a pretty, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was joy. Like he was just human joy. And it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what anyone looking at it. There's not a lot happening here, but it was this genuine authentic, like, please come into my, look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was same thing, joy, and that man that Johannesburg man, I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him. We were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day and it was hot and it were flies. It was uncomfortable and he was magnificent. And the mechanic guy wasn't laughing at their saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right? In service. But he was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more. I want what they have. Someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them. I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with. And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves. Like what a life. Like what a gorgeous life. You mentioned the deep technique. But defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get your point across if you need to get it across? You don't. You can't. So sometimes I tell people. But life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way. Not with them. So that we should just rip the bandage. Not necessarily. We can't, right? So like I said. I'll give you an example. Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parent of the narcissist, we're going to give the other parent full custody. Not happening. The state of California, 50-50. All right? Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50% of the time. And I don't want them with that influence 50% of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I don't know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait until that day. And then at 18, those kids are free agents. So no one can say you have to be here. You have to stay here. You have to celebrate this holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots. So how do you... So you just have to have extreme patience, I feel like. It's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance. This thing sounds exhausting. It is getting it. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spent time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago. Oh, it's miserable. Are you going to go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt? No, unless you're crazy. Okay. Why? Because in February in Chicago, it's cold. Radical acceptance. Yeah, so you just accept it. If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to an artist. So I tell people, there's another concept I use. It's something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True north are those things that you're going to fight for because they're so... They're important to your core values. So who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to a prejudicial language. True north gets activated and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves and pull out the earrings and then they're in. They'll go at it. It is exhausting. Nothing good happens. Nothing good happens. But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Romany, so I could live with myself to know that I fought for my kids. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or why were you late to the party? Or why were you rude to my sister or whatever? If you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, you know what happens to those when a person finally gives up? They're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, uh-huh. That's it. But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time? You cultivate other stuff in your life. Oh my gosh. Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist? That's a subjective question. Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me. It means different things to the people out in the street. So the bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love? Is that possible? It depends. Besides loving themselves. What is cold to you? I'm in a sweater. So it's a subjective word. So lots of people love narcissists. They do. I love this person. They represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it's very, it is very representational. We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are. But we don't know. Maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So again, that's a philosophical conversation. When it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them. Sure. But love is much more metaphysical. Yeah, of course. What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist? That they love themselves. They don't love themselves. Oh, hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. They put it projected onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. Oh my gosh. They're talking about themselves. Oh my gosh. Sometimes you just want to give them a hug. Narcissists are miserable. They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable. It's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them. They have to live with it. The universe wins on that one. Like, they have to keep being them. It is a... Imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. They're thinking, they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this and how come this? They're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them. That's a very difficult way to live. The nervous system must be always heightened, too. Kind of. Yeah. They're like the cousins there obviously. Who doesn't feel it. Yeah. Yeah. But narcissists really, really. It's a very uncomfortable way to live because they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick. And so what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic? Let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're run around middle school or high school. Selfishness, real inattentiveness. Dismissiveness. Dismissiveness. Devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, ugh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage. Rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought. Anger. Anger, rage. Like that. Walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent and probably dealing with an antagonist like a narcissistic parent. Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past. Yeah. Which means we've been like, why did I jump in to different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I hadn't learned to... But you didn't jump into a relationship before you walked on eggshells. You didn't feel it at the beginning. But it was like six to 12 months later when I was like... Then I justified. Oh, let's just get back to where it was. One of the great... Why would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists. Why is that? And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps. There was always a way to make it better. You're going to do the Sunday workout. You're going to go to the gym at four in the morning. Five is it? That's what it is. The more in you had this relief, you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just got to talk to them harder. I'm going to be more clear. I'm going to make this work. More loving, more present, more giving. Everything becomes a workout. Oh my gosh, this is what I did in the last 10 years. In every relationship for the last 10 years. I remember it just being like it never felt enough and it was always draining to give them. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you're not going to generalize, but I was like, I'm the guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve because I'm an athlete. I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to. It's like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them. Not a narcissistic one. Oh my gosh. But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away. No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here. I'll do this. And then it just drains your energy. Athletes, entrepreneurs, anyone who's a doer and it's worked for them, they're screwed. It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist, Ars Abad, is like I started to really realize like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this one in recent videos, like the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of a narrative. And when I realized like it shouldn't feel like, it should feel like commitment and that there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work. No. Otherwise, otherwise I'd rather be single if that's what it is. Exactly. And I think that that, and I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapy say to them, no. It's hard work. Relationship for hard work, no, no, no, no. It's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know if it's hard work, like because they sat and watched your French film with you. It's just an uncomfortable moment. You watch my book, well, you watch your football game. I guess, no, we're good. Yeah, it's fine. I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Yeah. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect, every single one. And as long as you got that. Flexibility. Flexibility. And the narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. That's why they don't work. They don't work. So they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar. Good luck with that. All right. Oh my gosh. This is just bringing me back to some of my so many realizations. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship if the person is not a narcissist? Maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship where your parent was or whatever it is, and you have some PTS from those experiences. And you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Yeah. Like is the sugar to drop? When you know the person isn't a narcissist, how long does that take to find out? About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually have, there's red flags. I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. That's a great example of a stress. How are they acting? And are they saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're going to make it work. And listen, what's the worst is going to happen? We'll get rebooked. And they're calm. Like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like we'll figure it out. To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to. But we're going to be fine. I'm a narcissist when they're running late to the airport. Oh, no. No, no, no. What happens? And it's just, I'm not going to curse. It's chaos and stress. It's awesome. But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Like that's the narcissist. With somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing. It's the presence. It's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed. To meet you halfway. To listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you. So not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go up to this person and you're like, hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else, not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away. And you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road. And they're like, oh my gosh, they just got the job with their dreams. Oh my gosh. Bringing back so many memories to me. That's the key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in, I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off topic guy. You can handle it. I love it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. And it's a big relationship theory. Is there a graph for this? No, no, no. I was going to say, I want to use the chart. I'll start buying the sustained chart. At some point, I want to use this. So the Michelangelo phenomenon is this idea that the one person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like do we need to, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? Should we move closer in? Because I see, or you know what can be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you asked the most amazing questions, you need a podcast. Like it's seeing that something bigger in the person. That's a good thing. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything. That's a good thing. It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that person is saying, go be your best you is secure enough to say, I'm not going to lose you. I see all the good in you. And I want the best for you. And I want the best for you and I believe in you and I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, I know that you're going to have to go take this course for six months and I may not see you and that's okay because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. What's the opposite of that? Narcissistic relationship. Because I think I'm just having so many realizations here. But in the previous, I would say, 10 years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing specific people because I was always like, I always saw the masterpiece. I said, you're a masterpiece and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts. But there was some insecurities with some of them, not all of them. And they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all of them, it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking and what they don't have and wanting to put their intentions back on them. I remember I got an email for a year. I was training to become, to make the USA national team was a dream of mine, to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball, which is a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple of years of a journey. This is 10 years ago. And I remember I showed my girlfriend at the time I go, I just got called up on the national team and I'm like getting kind of emotional just chills now back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me. She just kind of went back into God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do and I wish it was this and I was just like, what? Bingo, right there. Just, okay, well, yeah, let me come back and help you. I kind of put my attention back on like, you know, you're going to get these things going and you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing, I had this happen at one of my big events one time, my host's annual event called the summit of greatness and a relationship out of the time made it all about them at the event that I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what, let me pause in my event for two hours to give the attention to this person. And I was always trying to see the masterpiece. But it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me. Right, yeah, I mean, but that's the idea that that ego, and it's interesting, not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship as a narcissist by any stretch, they may just have more of the low grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by. Right. So security doesn't mean narcissism, right? Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there, then you again, you're talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people like they really see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you. Because it's just draining. Yeah. If it's just one person, right? It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you. Yeah. Man, this is crazy. So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and it's supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you. And she's happy for you. She's happy for me. Here we go. It has to be a two-way street. She's like, you're crazy. She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful. It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key though. Is that ability to co-locate growth, that Michelangelo, if you will. In essence, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day and you're both sculpting that for the other. Oh my gosh. It's beautiful. But that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like everyone is just in the audience watching them and celebrating them. So they can be the only great one in a relationship. Really? Yeah. So is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together? I actually love when that happens. So it kind of gets us on a water supply for everybody else. Oh my God. Because both of you guys are pulling each other. They're like perfect for each other. Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy, but in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship, very one partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. It all looks good together. Complement each other. That ish, compliments a strong word. The first time this one though might look someplace else, because this one's a narcissist, this person, the powerful one, is narcissistic. You may notice someone else, this person's going to blow up because they're doing their beautiful thing full time. And they're like, how can someone be more beautiful? And if you're not looking at me obsessive, then that can help the attention. Lots of jealousy, lots of volatility, lots of meaning, lots of egocentricity, lots of social media. It's like, I'm so blessed. Hashtag love my person. Hashtag best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that because I'm like, yeah, there we go. Another narcissistic, super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship. But it's very superficial, very volatile, no empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's are, as long as none of them have kids. Because that's a real, it's a real mess. You're a mess. You're a mess. You're traumatized. It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up either, they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good, it's not a good look. I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed. How many, what's the percentage? How many, what's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even? Okay, so here's where it gets interesting. So let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it because it's a mistake to use that language and I'll tell you why. Narcissistic personality disorder. NPD. So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship. I've got this ball and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm only like slow down sister, okay? Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'll be honest with you, if I have a client in my office, it usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with. With the disorder. Because you could have narcissistic personality traits. Correct. It's different than disorder. It's very different. And it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff. It could be more like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits as opposed to... It's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis and the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like what we call it, subjective distress. So depressed people are like, they're like, I'm miserable. I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed. That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of. It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around saying, I'm the one. I'm the guy. I'm working for you. I'm working for you. I'm the best. I've got money. I've got success. I've got the girl. Whatever it is, it's working for them. Everything's working for them. That's both objective distress. Social and occupational impairment. Now in some cases, they may be having trouble at work, and then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making, they're making a bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece, like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives. We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social, we can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Makes sense? It has to be that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time or I got a DUI. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's go to the numbers because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the percentage of people who have a disease of mental illness, a given disorder. So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6 percent. Those people who are diagnosed with a disorder. So they've gone into research studies. Most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions. So the million dollar question. How many do you think? This is my number. This is the Dr. Romany number. I'm going with 20 to 25 percent. Of the world or of the US? The world. 1 in 5 to 1 in 4. You think it's narcissistic? So 1 in 5 is problem. And I'm saying adults. So 18 and above 20 percent. That would make it 1 in 5. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25 percent. I think that just the pressures of the city, especially New York, LA, LA being an entertainment city, the nature that sort of the, it's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25 percent here. So that's 1 in 5. So buddy, if you know five people, one of them is narcissistic. When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the qualities that they possess, the real qualities? It's empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, emotional regulation, managing, this is more of the emotional regulation like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, genuine curiosity about others, setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. That's a good one. Yeah. Having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are, having a solid sense of values, conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic. It's nice to be around those two people. Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life, but I'm very careful. I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. And I've made them, because recently is this year, I've let more than a few in. So it happens. You let narcissistic friends in. Yeah. I'm getting, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. It's unfortunately a one in five. What are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people. One of them. And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three. Oh my gosh. I'm going to make so many memories. Yeah. This is for a whole new conversation off camera. Why I think I attracted some of these things. This is fascinating. So even you, you attracted people in your life. 100%. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm very aware of it. My personal vulnerabilities are things like I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough. I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder. So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. I've been through too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissists. If I boiled this down to one simple thing is that I feel like I'm not good enough. I let those kinds of people into what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates and not let anyone in. Unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect. Or I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself? It's to fully love yourself to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic-adjacent. But I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm not enough kind of thing. Really? Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work in my own therapy on that consistently. But I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's great. It's interesting. I've got, my staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. So what's so remarkable about it, they actually act like guard dogs. That's great. They're like, we feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. I'm like, good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're, I mean, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women. So what's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't, so that when we see someone coming in, we just say, nah, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life. So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. Just to lift the conditions of worth from our lives, that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, if we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy, who judges energy, right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life, you know, and that makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's- Who said this? Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Romany says, and many others I do believe say, we're energy. Like who judges energy? It's like judging the sun. I guess we do, like we were sunscreen. You're right, right, right. But you know what I mean? It's a- These conditions of worth, like whatever people say to themselves, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough, I'm not accomplished enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough, those conditions of worth, if I'm- I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed. So it's very much like dropping all that and saying, you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable. All of us, not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive, it's not- or rich or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of, you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's a lot to break out of. And so I think that- and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were taught, they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of, well, I'm not- they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting, I'm not enough. And I get attention when I'm selling something that they like, and so let me do more of that to get more attention. Exactly. And if I lose at that, then they're not going to love me. That's exactly right. Love all becomes like people think like, if I do these things, then I can be loved rather than you're just lovable. And so that's where most people lose the plot. And I think the other piece, those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change or some- I just got to get to know them better or they don't really mean that. We enable it, we justify it, but if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not okay. That entitled behavior, not okay. And honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this, they're behaving like this. So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist? It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early because then they get disinterested and they walk away. You're not an easy mark anymore. So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Get away from them. This is dangerous. But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic? Yeah, but I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bath water. Right, right, right. It's fine. All out. Sure. So it's a, because charming, charismatic people, I would say that always make sure they have humility. There you go. If you have the humility back, then you're okay. That's the unit. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble. They're all that, they're incredible and they're like, listen, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit, talk a little bit about you? There's a humility. That's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. You can see how they're talking to other people, their interest in other people. They're not talking down to people maybe because let's say they're in a service position that evening. That they're not, and not in a smarmy, like, oh, the server's my best friend, but they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. They're just really, they're present in a situation. They're not elitist. They're not status conscious. That kind of humility, you know, that they don't brag. You know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are. That's cool. Oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my, no, they're just, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because, again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not drink the Kool-Aid. Yeah. What else do we need to know about a narcissist? Is there anything else you think that's important for us? I think that one in five of your friends is a narcissist. I mean, again, if we're using this number of 20%, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just, I mean, it's a spitball number and it's just sort of boiled up in this world and it may be a bourbon myth. I don't know. It's hard to get good data on this. You know, the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology because who's going to be honest about it? Because all these back doors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist. Oh, tell me please. Because I think that we've been talking with so much focus on the narcissist. The question is, what if I've just been through this? Is there a sense of PTSD that you're going to face? Yeah, a lot of PTSD. You'll see it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore, sort of sense of like I can't be bothered with life, rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, well no, because that part wasn't really real. It wasn't real. I was like, it's explosive. People have physical symptoms. They have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors we call them, things like working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships. Because they're going to start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this? What was I thinking? What that's the worst part. It's the self-blame and the self-shame. Because the self-blame is this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known. And then I'm a fool. And then a lot of people go back. So here, why? Because they think, let's talk a little bit. I want my whiteboard. I got it. You can use the whiteboard. Here we go. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle. Step one is something called, I'll write it down and I'll lift it up. Love bombing. Okay. Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex. Texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third day. I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month. My lease is up. Love bombing. It's exciting. It's intoxicating. It's seductive. And what it does, it's a narcissist's ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags because you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep. That you're like, or the unreal sex you're having, or these amazing, like constantly being these text messages or being going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like, okay, red flags. What red flags? I'm having a fairytale. It's incredible. Yeah. And they just know they've got you. When you kind of let down your guard, because some people are like, this seems too good to be true. And then they're like, okay, I love you too. I'm, boom, that's the day. So pretty called devaluing starts. Okay. Now devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs. Like, oh gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook. Or you know, it's like the digs. It's little, it's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like where's this? Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here? Now they start blaming themselves. Because it was this, now it's this, it must be me. Oh my gosh. Okay. Now then we go to you. I just feel like you're going through my life right now. Okay. So I'm going to do something called the discard. Now the discard is not always a breakup. Is this where like they won't speak to you for two weeks? It's the silent treatment. It's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be even, sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point. Like the not narcissistic person. I'm out. I'm out. And then comes a phase. Oh my gosh. Called, I'm going to write it and unveil it to you. Yes, yes. Very love bombing of me. Hoovering. Hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, try to woo you back. Try to woo you back. Love bombing part two. Now love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like maybe, maybe what was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to you. This could be because they cheated on you. And they say things like you're so much better. And you know what? People fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic. That idea very edible that you're the favored child. That you're the favored one. And the Hoovering is. Choosing you. Then in the part of the Hoovering is a dynamic called you're going to love this one. It's my guess after what the way you've been putting. Future faking. Okay. Future faking is no, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to or I'm going to get therapy or I know let's just put it off for another six months. For sure. I'm going to do it then. They keep moving the goalposts. And future faking is what keeps people in the game because they're like they're promising the thing you want six months. We're going to have kids. Yeah. For sure. You know, like I just need to get my career established and now you're 50 and you don't have kids or we're going to, you know, we're going to definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there and I know you said there's some better opportunities for you years. You're waiting or I'm going to get into therapy. I'm going to work on these anger issues. And then if you push it, God, you know what? You're really impatient. You're like you are not a nice person. Can't just see what I'm going through my life and I need time. Yeah. And then you have to cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered. Okay. Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they're done. And so people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, oh, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered because then it goes back to the cycle goes again and again and again. So what is hoovering again? Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in. Oh, they bring you back. They bring you back in. And they'll do that. Let's say they're the one who left you. Okay. And you finally start getting your life in order and maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up or you're in a good place. If you've got a job, you want, they don't want you happy because they don't like losing and they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I tell people like maybe you could get a good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out before you get into deep. But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you and then you're like, you know what? They're gonna get mad. I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me. Like it's not you. It's me. I'm not ready. They're gonna get mad. So either way, once you get it, once you go on the first weekend love bombing Stravaganza, you're kind of sunk. Yeah. They want to get out there. They want to get out. You gotta go to the first weekend. You want to get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people. It applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off in the free way. Oh my gosh. And that's actually been documented in research. So a narcissist is a bad driver. Bad driver. Dangerous driver. Not bad. Not like dumb driver. They cut people off. Hong Kong's road-gazing driver. Oh my gosh. You got to use the whiteboard. I like it. Anything else we should use on there? You got another graph or a diagram? I love this stuff. I love this. This is fascinating. Anything else we should talk about? Last thing. Yes, give it to me. Gaslighting. Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a note here. Gaslighting's the word of our time and if nothing else I want, your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people get things right here. So what is gaslighting? Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking apart of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process. It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything. And I would say, and we had our time, we were going to meet the date. And I said, you never said we're meeting on that day. You'd be like, what? And then you'd go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute and say, did I not send that email right? And you catch yourself, okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship. And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. No, no, no. You did. You really did. Like you said that. Or I'm not being too sensitive. And now you're getting more and more and more worked up, right? And then they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes. Somebody is a little bit crazy. Like have you seen a therapist? So now what are they doing? Not only did they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom. They close it by saying there's something wrong with you. Oh man. And you start believing it. Oh wow. Many people are gaslighted. We'll start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness. Maybe I need to get help. There's something wrong with me. And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person. Oh my gosh. That's the process. And so, but initially the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together. Maybe this is a family member. Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You got to have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target. They'll stop with you. Yeah, because yeah. So they'll say like, oh, that is not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one. But so early on when a person or a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm going to stick with that. That's an on talk. That's a good one. Right? And then the gaslighter will probably lose interest. But they'll always get their last digging. They'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslight. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday. Literally three hours all gaslighting because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work. It happens in families. It happens in relationships. It happens from the world at large. Like no, everyone can, the playing field's equal. And then the people are like, I can't be equal to like your kids. So the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say? Without them saying, because I feel like this is happening to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like, they bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, you this, this, this, this. And I'll be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about. And so I have to go to, you know, go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about in the first place. That's gaslighting. That all that. It's exhausting. It's a very exhausting. It's like, let's just focus on this thing. So a great example, what gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like in a relationship. And, you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person and there's been a lot of communication between the two of you. Like, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good to me. It feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like this isn't okay. They'll hit back with, let's go back to when you were in college and you were, and you're like, wait, and then you know what? I tell people have a whiteboard say, okay, I'm going to table that. Let's, we'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it. But let's go back to the original. So keep going back to the original. Go back to the original issue. Until they have a discussion and resolve. They'll get mad. And they won't discuss. So how do you find resolve? You don't find resolve. And use relationships. There's no resolve. There is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance. Oh my gosh. So you just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's going to be their way or the highway. And they won't be flexible. No. And you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time. Or you can choose to move on. Right. But being in an argument is only going to make your life correct. And you might say like that seems lonely. Yeah. And so I have worked with people who've stayed in long term narcissistic relationships, who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships. Unless the narcissist tries to control them. Hey, no, they do. If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissists, you still won't work. If they, yeah, but if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, church community. Some people do this in online communities. If they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way, develop hobbies, they care deeply about garden, building something, whatever, their groove is music, something like that. I've known people that have lovers, you know, to say like, I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years. And so they'll do that. And they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people. I haven't been touched. And they're like, you know, I know I'm not, and it's like, I know I'm not very attractive, but they've found, everyone's got someone, everyone finds someone and they find there's someone. And so I've heard it all. I've heard people do all kinds of things, finding their way, finding their way to get that support on the, when they're not being, when they have to stay. Because that's where you get on gaslight, the right person saying, no, that's not, that's not okay. Or this person's conduct isn't okay. But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, I can fix this. And I'm telling you here, you can't. Stop trying to fix it. Stop trying to fix it. This is not going to work. That was probably my challenge, is I wanted to fix. Which again, your athletic background, it makes sense. I mean, people who have had a track record of being able to get things done, they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long. I think I was attracted to it and then wanted to stay in it. It's attractive. And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else supposed to a combination of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life, not all the energy in one place. Correct. Correct. And it's very draining. And I think a lot of people do feel like a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No relationship. Yeah. Being unselfish all know it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work? And you're like, of course I'll go to that dinner for work because you care about them. And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or having fun with it is that you understand that there's a give and take and you give graciously. And the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about, you know, grinding your teeth and, you know, being irritated. You have to go, but really that that giving was grace. But at the I'll be frank with you, it really comes down, though, to finding somebody who has a good personality that it's not. And I keep using what agreeableness, right? Being agreeable, being agreeable. And that's actually a personality style. How do you know when someone's agreeable? All those things I talk about, flexibility and warmth and kindness. Just the time. It's just, yeah. Over time and seeing their words for their actions. Agreeable men make most money. Agreeable men make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly. Bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person is going to be agreeable is a lot lower. She just need to find a unicorn. Someone who's agreeable and who has money. I have not. You've never seen that? I know. Yes, I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head. A billionaire. Most agreeable man in the world. Sweet, sweet, married to a raspy narcissist. You can't. He's a darling. Oh, man. But just just walked all over in his relations. Oh my God, beyond. Walked all over. But in his business, he can go and have. Killed it. He can be assertive and yeah. I've met a few agreeable rich folks. I mean, really, I mean, I'm not just rich, like really good at what they do. They unicorns, like they definitely. But what was interesting, you know, with some of the, a couple of these folks, the agreeable, very wealthy at the end of their career, they got taken down. They got like people in the company, they were in soft target. They were the vulnerable targets. So they built the company and they're going to we're going to take the equity from them or they're going to be a lot of blame. They did. They got a group of because they wanted to fight for what they. Well, they were no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable. They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs. And because they were they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation. It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30, I was I've talked about this many times on my show, though sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that that process and really go through a healing journey of, you know, the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough or not feeling lovable, all these different things. And to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative and finding the the value in the process and in the the pain, I guess, really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in. And it's channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why we're at the book, The Masking Man. Masking Man. Yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously. And what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in and then they become angry or reactive or grateful or, you know, dismissive or whatever it is. They have put a mask on. And, you know, that shame causes that mask, at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So I can't remember where I was going with this. But for for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind and heal that process. And it's it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can because I used to be very competitive. It was like I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. You know, it got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled. And I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. Then I started transitioning and when I hit 30 to I just want to collaborate. And I just want to support others and work together. And it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling. What do you think the function was of trying to win? Oh, to get love, be accepted. To get love and be accepted. I was going to say maybe to be safe. Yeah, to get love, to be accepted, to feel like I was, yeah, to fit in, you know, because I didn't feel I had any friends growing up. So it was like, well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me. Right. Right. And I'm desirable. Right. If I lose and who wants to be around me. And then the shame gets activated. But it's also safety. And that's why the idea, if I win, I'm safe. Yeah, that's the ultimate get for any. I'm not alone. To be safe. I'm not alone. If I'm accepted, I'm safe. If I'm loved, I'm safe. And it's funny when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot, when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know that's what I feel like for the last eight years. Because you're safe when you're still collaborating. You're still with people. You're helping each other accelerate together. Right. But there's a fear. And I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer. Right. So I think that's often a blockade. And then I'm at the top of the mountain. Everyone else is down. Yes. If they leave you, it's not even the it's not the collaboration. That's the issue. It's the potential for abandonment. Interesting. Like if I'm if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top. But then I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind. Well, they took it all away. I mean, this was somebody and that man, the agreeable billionaire, was collaborative from the day one of his career. So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not to take an advantage of? It's not easy. It's with the one in five number I'm giving you. It's not easy. I mean, it is, you know, what is the best offense is a good defense. You better have a good defense. Yeah. Get your contracts in order to get everything. Contracts in order document. Don't put your head in the sand. I mean, a lot. The reason narcissism is proliferated the way it has is enabling. People keep giving it a free pass. So come on now. You know, don't what is it? Don't don't hate the don't hate the player. Hate the game. Is that how that works? Right? It's a player. And yeah, so it's it's a player. Yeah. No. So like it's it's a we have all this kind of culture around and in some ways people like want to see they the best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic. Want to believe there. We want to believe that they're going to be. We want to believe that this charismatic person doesn't really is real, that they're that someone this larger than life is larger than life, rather than an ordinary person who who's just has ordinary things and could fall. And, you know, and we want superheroes. We want why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle. I'm ready. You've got some great books. Thank you. Don't you know who I am? How to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement and incivility. And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I stay or should I go? Surviving a relationship with a narcissist. It just feels like the best way to, you know, set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow. Learn the person. Learn as long as you can. Spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing. I was watching some of the videos. Very inspiring. So if you want to make sure you learn this, I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with. Learn the person. Take it slow and don't justify bad behavior. When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck and it clacks like a duck, you know, scorpions sting. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got it's going to sting you. So walk the other way. And once it stings, you want, don't pick it up again. I'm playing with data to cover scorpios. Yeah. Not that I'll scorpios and guys. But it's funny. How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books? Yeah, I do workshops now. I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram. We often put, you know, we put the let people know what's coming up then. We're going to have a healing program and recovery program for people who have been through narcissistic relationships that's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements there. Every day we have a new video coming out. So you will be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching. Yeah. Dr. Romany everywhere, right? Yeah, Dr. Romany. Everywhere. There we go. OK, cool. Couple of fun questions. This one is called the three truths. That's what I asked everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else, but it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. Books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life, lessons and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths? If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. OK. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable. And. Trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you. Mm, those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Romney, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, and I've gone through a lot of this to who always struggle feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships. And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to research and studying, teaching in the university and an academic level and now, you know, to the masses with your information, your books, your content. I really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through. Make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life. I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor. Absolutely, it is. And it's going to keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's going to keep coming. My final questions, what's your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion and empathy. There you go. Dr. Romney, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. This is amazing. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you were looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to MakeMoneyEasyBook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.