39: Why Kia Isn't Slowing Down on EVs in America, with James Bell

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A big thank you to all of you who saw us in person at EVCS last month in Las Vegas. Continuing our series here on the podcast of looking inside the automotive industry, here last month we spoke with Alan Clark from Ford, by the way, listen to that episode if you haven't, it's a great one, where you have another fantastic guest today. He is the head of corporate comms and PR at Kia, America James Bell. Now Kia is a particularly notable automaker alongside its sister company Hyundai for being very aggressive with EVs in the US. And while a few decades ago they were honestly, and James himself will admit this, known as a budget brand and kind of a value offering, they've gone much more premium in the EV space and are competing legitimately with European and higher end American rivals and they're doing a pretty good job of it. So this is a refreshingly canon conversation with someone inside of an automaker who actually is very bullish not only on Kia's prospects, of course he is, that's his job, but also about the EV transition in general. And as much as he also admits, Kia, like many automakers, has a huge gas business and they still sell gas cars. At the same time, you look at the global automotive landscape and you know Kia and their sister company Hyundai are and they can see what's happening with Chinese competition and EVs around the world. They have not been letting up. They have been looking in their rearview mirror and the racing head. South Korea is an ally of the US and many of these electric Kia's are also built in the US at Plants in Georgia. So one more win for American jobs. We'll talk a little bit about that as well. So please welcome on James the Directly Current. It's my pleasure to have him on. He told the 10-year-old me that I'd be talking cars and talking to guys like you, I'd say this is a good life. So happen to be here. Royce Versa. It's great to have you on and Kia in particular, right? It's been an interesting few years. You guys get that new logo at the beginning of this decade. There's been all the EV madness, EV craziness, both of you guys, but also of course the entire US where the EV adoption curve has been uneven and yet at the same time, lots of great models coming out including from you guys. So just some frame of reference, lay the land for listeners here. Where is Kia today as opposed to when you guys entered the US obviously before your time, but what's the state of the Kia brand for someone who may not be super familiar with it? Wow. That's a big entry point, my friend. I would say the Kia brand and what we're doing and how we're being perceived and the general success of all that has been candidly very unexpected because it's been so complete for, like I said, confirmed by sales, confirmed by media reports, confirmed by awards. This company has really changed. I actually go back to when I was on the media side of things and working for a company that did a lot of cost of ownership analysis and residual value and just the boring parts of the car business, but they, but very important. This is how people decide to spend their money. And Kia and Hyundai both came to our company and said, we want to be better at this. We want to improve. This was going back probably 15 years ago or so. And I remember attending that session and offering my candidate advice and what the opportunities were for the brand. It was myself and a collection of other quote experts, I guess you could say. And when I think back to what's happened, this company has just taken that external advice, brought in new faces, new ideas, new perspectives to actually working within the company. It's all translated now to here we are in 2026, a very different company than it was even six, seven years ago. And I think what's really fascinating about it's been this perfect combination of fantastic product that we were providing guidance to them on 15 years ago. They paid attention and they're now delivering that product because the investments been made in people and in quality and dedication from the teams, engineering the products, putting them together, designing them across the board. This company has just decided to be different and it's really paid off. And I think it's paid off at a time where some of our competitors may have lost their way a little, got a little complacent maybe in certain markets, in certain segments. And I can tell you Kia is a company that complacency does not exist. This is a company that loves to transition, loves to pivot, loves to, we all like to anticipate as much as we can. Yeah, case in point, right? You guys obviously still have lots of great gas and hybrid IP vehicles and yet since I think EV6 was the first EV in the US that you guys had that was, I should say, first full range fast charging EV, right? That met the needs of the American consumer who might want it as their only vehicle. Then you have the EV9, which I actually went to back in my former life as a journalist. I remember going to that event, meeting you there, great, three-row American vehicle, lots of feature content. And then you actually dialed the scales in a different direction. And I think maybe meeting the industry where it's going right now with EV3, you guys launched that in the US at New York Auto Show last week. That's huge because that is a lower price, still very adequate range in charging vehicle. So if we can just dive a little bit into the directionality, particularly on the EV side at Kia and how you guys have diversified your product portfolio with admittedly not that many products yet. And yet at the same time, each one has been such a hit. I think EV3 seems like maybe taking a place of Nero as that really full-fledged potentially could be many people's only car. So if you could just speak a little bit about that direction coming into EV3 coming out. Yeah. As you mentioned, we just at the New York Auto Show last week debuted the North American production, sorry, North American distribution of the new EV3. It's been on sale in other markets around the world to create a claim of success. In fact, I was just recently speaking to my associate at Kia in the UK. He said it's the in the top selling EV in England since launch, I believe a little over 12 months ago. We know that it meets a lot of people's needs. We know that it is a strong performer in the space. And we also know to your point that the industry has changed a little bit since we first made the EV3 known here in the US market. I did quite a few interviews at the New York Show and said, I think we're going to make extra news, if you will, in having the EV3 as a new vehicle for the US market. When so many of our competitors are backing down or changing or adjusting and we're coming in with a new one. It was a bit of a I saw a lot of media kind of scratch in their head. Really, we thought looking at the general zeitgeist and where other manufacturers are going that the EV space was going to go stagnant or quiet for a bit. And here comes Kia in with a new vehicle, which is, as you correctly said, is going to be more affordable, a fantastic performer for EVs as they really should be used, which is the day to day lifestyle. That day to day perspective is where an EV is so great, you can just wash away the need for going to a gas station. And they can just wash away the need for maintenance, other than maybe brake pads and windshield wipers and tires. In as a commuter vehicle, which is going to be tracking more mileage, probably more regular mileage on a defined route, an electric vehicle is the only way to go. It truly is. And so we think the EV3 hits that spot very well. Like some of our competitors with the new Nissan Leaf with the Chevy Bolt, those are rational EVs. As you said earlier, the EV6 and the EV9 award winning. We're so proud of those two vehicles. I'm an EV6 driver myself. They're absolutely perfect. But maybe the price point or the size or something may not be best for the average American commuter. And I think that's where the EV3 for us again at the New York Auto Show to come bang it through the door and say, everybody else is backing off or turning their face a little bit from EVs. Here comes Kea with a new one that we think has even greater potential from a to a wider segment of potential American buyers. Yeah, it's really refreshing. And it's good to see too. I know there's a little bit of that. I am sure people from the design group could talk about that looks to me like a little bit of a miniature EV9. It's got that boxy look. It's emotional. It awakens things. And the non charitable view of EVs among maybe not just car enthusiasts, but some detractors and critics. Oh, it's a washing machine. It's an appliance. Right. There's no there's nothing special about it. And you look at something like an EV3. I'm thinking of someone like my fiance right now. She drives a Chevy Bolt. She loves stuff like that. Right. It's got so much personality. And if you could talk a little bit more about how. You know, EVs are gone beyond just I'm thinking of like the early Nissan Leaf, not this current one, right? Where it was very much in that school of being an appliance. Not necessarily speaking to emotions. What is it like now for these modern EVs stuff like EV3 and Kia's brand right now, like delivering what you guys are? Maybe a little personal story might help in 2016, I think I purchased a 2000 then 2014 Mercedes Benz B class electric because I wanted to see. I could see where this world was going. I could see electrification was going to be a big thing. At that particular time, I worked for General Motors on an all candor. But it was it seemed like a good time to understand the EV space because I could see not only within the halls of GM, but also being a student and observer of the industry where it was going to be. And so I bought that Mercedes B class. It was a appliance vehicle, as you said, I think of the most I was about 93 miles on one particular state, one charge. Had a couple of scary moments coming back from LAX or I remember one time I was at the Hollywood Bowl and I guess I for lack of a better term, I think I got into my driveway on the last electron, if that makes sense, I'd really pushed it. And I think that's the best way to describe this jump between that era where they were more curiosities, shorter commute, maybe it would be a better choice in that it was just a peculiar thing to do or an experiment. Now shoot ahead. I drive my EV6 anywhere I want to go. Not only does it have the range that supports me, but now there's a charging infrastructure that is continuing to grow and become easier and more reliable. And I think I saw recently in California, there's now more charge points than there are gasoline nozzles. So we are done. Some of those may be in shopping malls or places that aren't super convenient, but that's changing. So I think to answer your question in a larger way, anybody who looks at the EV marketplace as, as I said earlier, curiosity or maybe that's not right for me yet. I tend to disagree. Obviously, if you live in a big city on the 14th floor of an apartment building or something like that, charging may not be on at home, might not be easy. But I guarantee you a little investigation will find charging opportunities near your place of work, near your school, just somewhere along your transit routes. And then all of a sudden, the EV lifestyle starts to pay you back by the bucket full. So I think we're definitely in a different place now, but I believe that, and I'm sure this is part of the good work you're doing here, is some of the impressions of a lot of American consumers is lagging behind the realities. That's typical. That happens. But it's catching up quickly. And there's tons of champions like myself out there who have told people the jumping in the pool of EV lifestyle, the water is very warm and very comfortable. Absolutely. And to your point, as people get more familiar with EVs, one of the ways to dispel those misconceptions we've noticed in our data is just the word of mouth, right? Someone's neighbor gets an EV. It doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood it is, or they know relatives with one. Suddenly it's not this, oh, that's the polar bear ad I saw from 2010. Suddenly it becomes, oh, that's, maybe I do want to review it. Maybe I want an EV nine, that kind of. I tend to think that there's probably a lot of neighbors who said, oh, and once the doors closed, Joe down the street got one of those EVs. That's not going to work for him. Let's see how that goes. And oh my gosh, there's Joe looking very happy on a day-to-day basis. And there's Joe not taking it into the dealer for unexpected servicing. And there's Joe who's always liked to tell the story of one of the big moments, I think, from an emotional perspective of why EVs make so much sense is just the simple act of driving home at night, looking at the gas meter gauge when you park the car and your driveway or garage or whatever, and saying, before I go do my appointments tomorrow, I'm going to have to go get some gas. Just got to do that. We've all lived that life. It's just, it goes. Yeah. And then inevitably the next morning, a cat got out or you can't find your keys or your socks don't match or whatever the case might be. You delay your departure, then you finally get in your car and go to fire up and you're off to your appointment. You're already running a little late. Oh, and I need to go get gas too. That simple experience gone with an electric vehicle, especially if you can charge at home or you have charging nearby and high speed charging. The thing is you say with Kia's EVs, you can be in and out in 15 minutes or even quicker if need be and you're back on the road. But just that whole emotional lift that happens when you realize, hey, if I'm able to charge at home, I leave every day with a full tank of gas. That's very gratifying and that makes you very pleased that you made the jump onto the EV space. Yeah, it's super potent, particularly as people might see volatile fuel prices at the moment, world events, what they are, all kinds of own factors. You have to, and you mentioned this earlier, briefly written maintenance, all these other things that come with combustion. And obviously combustion engines we've seen have a stubborn long life in the US. They definitely will. At the same time, more and more people to your point on the charging at home, that's becoming a reality for folks. We're doing a lot of work actually in California law being for easier multifamily charging because we've noticed that's been a roadblock. And so as I think those barriers left in particular, I think people will live that experience and see, oh, this is amazing. I do want to rewind. I loved on the charging note talk about some of the work with Iona because I know you guys are one of the partners. But first, you mentioned that B class, early Eve compliance, EV experience. And I love it, right? It shows that you've been living the, you live the EV enthusiasts lifestyle early when things were rough. I'm not sure I could say the same for a lot of your counterparts or other companies and you have hinted at this. So, well, I mean, when you think of Kia and also your guys' sister company, Hyundai, and the just aggressiveness of launching new EVs, media headlines be damned. People love these cars. How do you think about that? And also just this kind of like EV mentality of I can think of many spokespeople, again, people in your position, people on the media side themselves don't understand what charging is, what EV life is like. So how have you been living it? How do you feel like that's part of Kia's culture? Maybe I'll go back to a little bit. It's just my headspace at the New York Auto Show last week when I had people in the media who I've known for years come up to me and say, are you guys doing another EV? That's not really where it's at now. Well, that proves to me that member of the media or that spokesperson or that observer in the industry is not paying attention. And I guess maybe that's why I got the Mercedes back in 2016. I want I'm paying attention. I can see where things are going to change. And so I wanted to have some experience in that. And I think that's how why I'm so pleased to work here at Kia now, because this is a company that also gets it. Has it goes back to I think it was 20 or 2016, when the Kia EV, sorry, the Kia Soul EV was introduced. Again, more of a compliance machine. Didn't have the range. It was a third of what we see today. But that was Kia testing. That was Kia learning. And I think from those learnings, you see the confidence in this space from our brand. We are not doing it as an addendum to our industry or our place in the industry. We're doing it because this is where the industry is going. And we want to be at the forefront of that. And I think when we first introduced what we call our plan S strategy or plan shift, this was a moving the entire. We even changed the name of the company from here in the US from Kia Motors America to Kia America and washed away the word motors. We have no problem with gasoline powered cars. We still sell a ton of them. And we will continue to because the world is not going to change tomorrow. But it's going to change. It's going to go there. And I think what's so rewarding for me as enthusiasts in this industry is reasonably knowledgeable about it to work for a place that says, yeah, we get it too. And there will be bumps in the road and there will be pivots and there will be spins that have to happen. But this is where it's going. And Kia wants to be there. And Kia wants not only be there, but to be a leader. And again, in 2021 when we introduced plan S and made those bold statements, it was, yeah, sure, whatever. And now five years later, for taking that spot, especially because somewhere where competitors are backing down. Yeah. And it's a very, it's an opportunity. It's a great moment. I think the timing has worked out really well for leaders like Kia right now who have seen the direction of the ball broadly this whole time. Another note on the manufacturing side of things, right? You guys have, I think the plant in West Point, Georgia, but you also have the larger Hyundai metal plant where I think you might be producing some future EVs as well. Very futuristic. Sorry, sorry. He is about. Oh, it's fine. We're about to 40% of the final master plan from the metal plant there in Savannah, Georgia. Yes, to this point, you just seeing the Yannick 9 and Yannick 5 come out of the factory. Pay attention to this space. We're going to take our claim there very soon. Okay, great to see. I love also the Hyundai Kia Dynamic. A lot of folks, I feel like some people in the business assume, oh, this must be like the same company. No, you guys share engineering and R&D, but you do have different identities and I love that. Like an EV6, Yannick 5, similar bones of driven both. They are different cars. They appeal to different people, I can say. And my fiancee actually, she likes the EV6 much more than Yannick 5. You'll be happy to hear. So. Well, you sound like you found a good girl. But on the factory note, that is really cool state of the art investment and technology. That's another point I feel like American consumers perhaps in the public at large has missed in that particularly with EVs and this chance to develop next generation technology. A lot of this technology is actually being on short and also work for battery plants of partners like South Korea, where your guys corporate origins are. It's all part of a supply chain that's really important in a world that looks like ours and it's providing lots of jobs. How do you think about that narrative and maybe potentially making that more public? Or do you think that it matters that people have this idea of, hey, my EV6 was built in the US? That's a fact I feel like a lot of people don't know. With not just the EV6, but many EVs. So how do you think about that in the kind of broader landscape? My friends over in the marketing side of the building here probably wouldn't like me saying this. But I don't think where vehicle is sourced is that big of a thing because I think there's to your point, there's probably a lot of people who drive a Chevy because they assume it's American made or drive a Toyota because they assume it's Japanese made. And in the very good chance in both cases, they're not. Yeah. I don't think that there's going to be a certain subset of the marketplace that made America is very important. And that's why we have the factory in West Point, Georgia for what going into year 17. Now the award winning telluride comes out of there. The new in the new versions as well, the EB9, the EV6. So we're committed to doing that. It's cliche to say in this industry, but you want to build it where you sell it. That's just smart business. But I personally tend to think that the average buyer, not all, but the average buyer or somebody considering getting the EV space is just looking for the best EV experience above and beyond where it's sourced, what company it's from. And that's when I think one of the things that's been. Dear point earlier, a great opportunity for Kia because we as a brand have changed so much in the last 10 years. Previous to me joining here and I'm just coming up on my 10th year. The Kia brand was, I like to call it a used car alternative. It was OK, I need a new car. My old one's dying. Let me look at my wallet. I can't quite afford that new car I wanted. I don't want to get another used car. Ah, I'll get a Kia. That's what the brand was. And I was very happy to be that way for 20 years of its existence here in the US market. Again, 10 years ago, they decided to change that. So I think it was a delicious combination of people starting to look at the EV market, having an open mind to thinking Tesla proved that. There's a brand that just came out of nowhere and became the EV brand. So there was a sense of people saying, OK, if I'm thinking of EV, I might be comfortable thinking of a brand that I wouldn't have in the past. And that's where our overall brand change and our overall growth has timed so nicely with our EV space. We're quickly becoming known as an EV company, as a efficient mobility company that's stepping away a little bit from what Kia was in the past because the products back it up. And I think regardless of their origin, if the machine that you're offering does not deliver on a daily basis and exceed expectations, I don't care where it's built. It's not going to succeed. That's a great point, right? People want in their driveway desirable sheet metal. I don't think they care where it's stamped so much or most people don't. So that is. And a lot of that, if I can go. And real quick to that, a lot of that is design. When I was on the automotive media side of things and I had test cars all the time, I use one of my markers of whether I thought the car was going to be a success. Or not would be is when I walked out to my driveway to start my days commute or drive to events, was I excited to get in that car? Did it make me feel good? Yeah. Yeah. It's like putting on a suit or a hat or something like, yeah, this is who I want to be today. This is who I want to convey. This fits my persona today. So you get in the car and you feel like, yeah, I'm in that. I'm proud of where I am. And then when you exit the vehicle, I start walking to your destination. If you look over your shoulder and just say, yeah, I came in that. That is into a huge emotional component of the car buying and the car owning element. We people may not admit to that, but I think it's a thing. I know I didn't just come. It happened to me naturally and I still do that to this day. And so I think the sheet metal, I love Peter Schreyer, who we hired. Well, gosh, 15, 20 years ago now from the Volkswagen group did a lot of amazing designs for Volkswagen and Audi, a myriad of different brands. He'll be in the design hall of fame one day. There's no question. And one time I said to him, Peter, we've been doing this successfully for such a long time. You're really starting to make a big impact on Kia design. You know, what's the secret? And I won't try to do his German accent, but he basically said, look, James, when you make a car, you have to bend the sheet metal. So you better bend it good. Does it get any easier now? I'm not a car designer, so I can't bend it good. But he's a genius and he brought in a team of geniuses and we have some of the best design possible right now. And so that emotional side matched with the kind of economic and logical side. It just fits like a glove for Kia right now. No question. Yeah, desirability is a huge factor, especially with EVs. And I think you find if the vehicle is desirable enough, look at Tesla in the early days, people will go over whatever misgivings they have about all the disruption of a new energy source and just decide, Hey, I don't care. That model S looks great. I want it. That EV6, it's pretty cool. I want to drive it. Well, quick personal story on that front. In 2004, I bought a Toyota Prius. That was the generation that became the big huge success generation. And I had a long commute at the time. And here in California, you could have access to carpool lanes. So it became my time machine, made a huge difference to my drive. But to your point about the Tesla, I also gave up some of my car guiness to drive a vehicle that that was not super fun, didn't handle super well. It was did the job fine. The really the only game to play with those early hybrids was just trying to get an extra two miles on a tank of gas. So that got old quick, but a long way of saying, yes, you you make allowances for vehicles that are delivering other not not emotional things to you. There's some kind of payback. But if you can put it all together where you have the emotional side, the logical side, the economic side, you're a juggernaut. It gets easy almost from there. Yeah. And to your point earlier, right, with brand shaping, right, the Kia brand being in a much more kind of premium space than it used to be. You look around the world and obviously Kia is one company that does operate around the world. You have really competitive Chinese competition, regardless of your feelings about China and Chinese cars. Chinese EVs are really good. And you guys are right there with them. You are competing, right? And in Europe, in Asia and maybe soon in the US, who knows, right? So like it is interesting to see brands that, you know, have to have a global presence are also extra aware of this competitive pressure of, oh, we really can't just be giving people, OK, we put out an EV hatchback. We have to be making it something desirable. Yeah. And when you talk about the future, that's again, echoing back to what we said in New York last week that, yeah, it is a surprise that here's a major car company coming out with a new EV. When people have been reading in the headlines about other car companies backing off and taking huge financial hits by writing off a lot of the investment in EV, what does Kia know? What we know is where the world is going. Simple as that. And where the global market is going. And as a global company, we need to be ready in any permutation of market dynamic. The US market is going to be a little odd for a little while compared to the global space, but we're ready no matter what comes. Yeah, encouraging to hear in our last few minutes here, just if you can't comment, I know you were in the partners in Iona for listeners who aren't aware. That is a great fast charging network. Many OEMs contribute to it. And it's giving EV owners peace of mind for pretty awesome amenity filled road trips. Can you speak a little bit on all the work? Because those guys have been building stations everywhere. I've seen two or three put up in Colorado. My drive through Kansas is way more interesting now because of what they've done in I70 and I love it as an EV driver. But for those who are less familiar about the concept of Iona and what they're doing, can you just explain that a little bit? Be my pleasure. I'm really, very proud and pleased with our part, Kia's partnership in Iona. And they're doing a fantastic job. I think they just announced the 104th rechargeery that's been opened up. They're getting ready to we just had the grand opening for a new flagship rechargeery here in Southern California, which is obviously a key market for that. I think the easiest way to describe Iona is when I went to the grand opening of their facility in near Durham, North Carolina, about 18 months ago or so. Just as a human being on the planet, walking up to that space and saying, this looks like a nice place to be, really interesting design, great color combinations, coffee available, comfortable chairs in North Carolina that day was hot to walk in. It was nice and cool in there. Just a whole destination, which anybody who's maybe considering the EV market now, their idea of public charging might be that bank of chargers in the back of the Costco parking lot. Not super attractive place to be convenient. If you're going into Costco for an hour, I get it. But not appealing on its own. That's where excuse me, where Iona is coming in such a bold and fantastic way. I tend to believe, firmly believe that when people see Iona stations, I should call them rechargearies, when they see a rechargeary on the road, this is the kind of conversation that's going to happen in cars. Okay. So the family drives past a recharge ring and the husband or wife says to the other one, did you see that? That looked nice. Maybe we should get an EV because then we can use that. It just blossoms the premise of EV ownership well beyond the idea of not going to a gas station anymore. I think it turns it on its head and says, yeah, gas station experience, not that great. Iona rechargeary station, fantastic and nice place to be. And then with high speed charging, all their charging ports are all high speed. So with a Kia electric vehicle, you can be in and out in 20 minutes at best. Next time anybody's listening who's still an EV kind of skeptic, please set your alarm on your phone the next time you go to Phillipry gas tank and tell me how long you're really there from getting out of the car, from attaching the fuel pump, from going in and using the restroom or buying a Gatorade and then coming back, maybe cleaning the windows, throwing some garbage away in there for at least 10 minutes, if not longer. And so the idea of going to a place like the Iona rechargeary where you actually are, you feel welcome and it's comfortable and it's reasonably exclusive. And you're getting that high speed charge. Help helps write the EV success story one on yet another page. Absolutely. And just to shout out one of your competitors, frenemies in the space. I was in Jocetree recently and I stopped at the Rivian Outpost. That's one of their flagship amenity things. Iona, of course, has many similar things, but what they've done, just speaking personally as a space I went to recently, I was floored. It's so cool. Obviously that is expensive to build. It takes commitment, but they did it and that's a brand building thing to your point. It totally flips the narrative around from, oh, I guess I got a stop here at this Walmart to suddenly, oh, I want to go there. I want to stop there. I believe I with Iona stations and the future of charging will be heading out for the day. Oh, I've got plenty of range, but you know what, maybe I'll stop there at the Iona station and grab a coffee, just stretch my legs for a minute before I start my day. So I'll just do a quick five minute charge just to cut something that people are probably not prone to do to in the way most charging stations, as we said, at the back of a Costco parking lot. Yeah, absolutely. Exciting to see the development of that, as well as, of course, the great vehicles can't wait to see EV3 on North American roads later this year with deliveries. Is that the plan? Yeah. Yeah. Back into this year, in fact, my EV6 is due to be handed back, I think in November, and I'm really hopeful that we'll get somewhat the synchronicity there that I can slide right into an EV3. So fingers crossed. Okay. Fingers crossed. You're going to be living the lifestyle again. That's awesome. Look, looking forward to seeing them on the road. Thanks so much for their time, James. Yeah, it's my pleasure. It's a look like we said at the start, being able to sit and talk about cars with a smart guy like you. It's my childhood dream. So it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. That's a wrap on Directly Current for this week. Thank you so much to James Bell from Kia for his time and willingness to do this. By the way, apologies about some of the audio quality. We had some technical issues with the recording software, which meant James had to get creative and actually dialed in from his smartphone. So he's using a built-in iPhone microphone. I think it sounds pretty darn good considering and again, props to him for the ingenuity and working through our own technical issues. You can subscribe to our podcast to see more inside looks at the automotive industry, as well as deep policy insights on how the EV transition is going and how we're making EVs happen for all America. That's very much an intended pun. And how we're making EVs happen for all America with initiatives like lobbying for multifamily charging in California and all of that great work, which by the way, is also at our website, evsforallamerica.org. So subscribe to the podcast, check out the website. All of these links are in the description and stay tuned. We'll see you in the next month or so with another exciting guest in the automotive industry. Until then, I've been Max Patton and I'll see you next time. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there, integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online, in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash set up. 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