TOP FIVE Sub $15k Track Day Cars You Can Buy Right Now?

What's up everybody? Welcome back. It is another episode of Firing Order brought to you by Viper Industrial. This is the show where we get into extremely nuanced arguments about random rankings of things in the car world and we try to stay friends through the end. Today, we've got my co-conspirator Ron Zaris as well as Gridlife co-founder Chris Stewart to rank the top five budget track day cars. Let's get into it. If you grew up reading Hot Rod and not GQ, you're probably more of a hat and hoodie person, which means your sunglasses likely match that look. But this past weekend, my wife said we had somewhere fancy to go. So I dusted off the button down she got me for Christmas. But when I went to go grab my laser faces, I got that look. Thankfully, Heat Waves saved my ass with their new Nimitz. It's an elevated take on the classic aviator, stylish and functional. So if you need to class it up a little, my friends at Heatwave got you covered from track day to date night. 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Just ripping dad jokes. You think he's trying to fit in? That I know of. Look, before we get into this, Ron and I just enjoy the artistry of debate and just argument. We're here for that purpose alone. But you actually run race series. Like this is your profession. We're maybe spectators on it. Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely deep, deep in the weeds. Yeah, I mean, I said it in the intro, but for those who don't know, what have you been doing for the past decade of your life? So I am Chris Stewart and I am the founder of grid life. So I've been facilitating track time in competition and other forms in a variety of places all over the country for the last 10 years. I like that you use the word facilitating. I think when you usually have to follow it with like, I've been facilitating bad decisions. Yeah, I mean, I'm a behind the curtain kind of guy. Providing the arena. I've been puppeteering, you know, like kind of puppeteering the environment for competition and track day culture to happen. Yeah, and I think that's a super interesting thing too, because your passion is in racing and track cars and all that. And you could see that because grid life didn't really have to be that, right? Like the combo of a music festival and like a drift event and just time attack is cool. But you guys have much more than just time attack. Oh, I have told him so many times that he would be so much more successful if he cared less about racing. Oh, sure. But I love the fact that you make that happen and the people that are there are like lifelong fans because of that. Yeah, I mean, it follows my own journey, right? So like, I had a CRX, I like got started to get into like, you know, kind of the track inspired builds and then turned it into like, actually a track car. And that was my journey. So like, grid life is like built around my automotive story, you know, for the most part, because that's really cool. One of the cool things I think now is like, you've actually offered a lot of other series for people to build cars for and come compete, right? You guys started with time attack, then you've expanded and like talk about like, what are some of the series you've got going on? Yeah, so we've got, yeah, we've got, we've got a ton now. So like time attack is the bread and butter, that's the core, right? So that's seven classes, you know, so club SC, club TR, all that kind of moving up so you can build like kind of any car that you like, any car that you love and find like a place for it. It's the one which you brung and there's a category. That's awesome. And there's a category for it. It's become like wildly competitive. So people have like figured out like their, their, their math and the rule book and like it's, it's real, right? So it's, it's, it's a pretty professional grassroots series at this point, you know, but outside of that. So we've got a GLTC. So that's a grid like touring car. So that's a 12 and a half to one power to weight ratio kind of math rule book and that's wheel to wheel racing. So first to the finish line, you know, so where time attack is like you're, you're kind of, you're competing for the fastest lap, right? Yeah. And then newest series, like kind of in that, you know, portfolio of things from us is GLGT. So GLGT is eight and a half to one. So faster, same, same structure, same run, you know, same build the car you love, but faster. Right. So, and that runs in the same format as GLTC, you know, and then we have the, the Rush series. So Rush is a really cool kind of spec racer and that, that runs similar to, right? So like that's, that's in the series as well. What's the spec? So they're, they're factory built cars. You've seen the Rush car? Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's our only spec series. That's cool. Yeah. So the fit thing wasn't really a spec series. It was just that fit was the most for that class or whatever that was. The hot club club SC. Yeah. Right. Right. Fit was just the, like the best car in that was, so it may look like it was, it may look like it was a fit spec series. Right. So it started as spec fit, right? And that was kind of a joke. Oh, it did start as spec fit. But not really. It was a joke title. Right. So the reason that that even became a part of grid life, right? So like, I always make the comment, like, what is, what does grid life do? It does what the community wants. Right. So like we build things, you know, like we built, we built it together with the drivers and with the community. Right. So like a lot of the classes and a lot of the things are crafted with the thinking of like what, what the community wants, what, what they're doing already. Right. So the behavior that, that spawned, uh, what was spec fit, which then became Sunday cup is now, uh, club SC, which stands for club Sunday cup or club slow car. Yeah. Which is like the grand Turismo classic. Yeah. However you want to digest it, it's because a lot of our instructors, when we were doing more, when we had more track day type stuff in grid life, when their race cars broke, they brought their dailies. Yo, I love that. And they're not, they're not going to not shred them. You know, like, That's like the birth of the dodgy. I think you say that's dodgy. Yeah. They would say my idea. They all happened to have Honda Fits. So then they were all just like ripping their fits. And then they started, you know, going bumper to, you know, like nose to bumper, you know, in the advanced session, you know, with these slow cars. That's how diesel truck racing started as well. Yeah. It was like guys would go drag racing. They'd blow their car up, but like they would be like, all right, I'll pull out my Cummins and run my Cummins down the hill and I'll race my buddy who brought his Cummins. And then all of a sudden they're running like eights. I mean, and there's obviously like B spec, uh, you know, and that stuff that comes from, you know, kind of the SCCA club world and, and, and those types of things. But like in our, in our environment, like fits became popular because like that's what started it. It's just like my track day car is broken. Um, you know, I'm just going to rip this daily. Hmm. You know, and what I really like about what you guys are doing, I took a look at one of your rule books last night just to like refresh and, uh, it's, you have such specifics like a power band width factor that takes percentages away, but then like six lines later is like your car has to look cool. Yeah. The cooler your car looks, the more camera time you'll get. Yeah. And I'm like, yo, this rule book is sick. So the two of us, like Ron and I've had the conversation about one of the big issues that rally racing has, and I'm about to just say this in the public is it's got an aesthetic problem. Like very, very few rally cars look cool, which means that you're less likely to take a photo of them and that photo end up something. Cause you have a lot of guys that get in there and like, they're like, I just care about the difference and I respect that. Well, a lot of that stuff is like the community will, will like racers gonna race. Absolutely. You know, so like a lot of those rules like come from like, yo, we really got to prevent these, these friends from like, let me translate that racers are going to cheat. Yeah. He wants to say, cause you will push the limit until you can't anymore. No, a hundred percent. Right. And they will, they will, they will, they will credit card race themselves to death and they will, they will get in the mist and it will ruin their soul. Yeah. Absolutely. And it'll ruin friendships and it'll ruin the community and like all that stuff. Yeah. So it's like, it's, there's like, there's like some defensive behavior in that too. Right. Like we want people to be able to be in this for a good time and a long time, you know, and they'll burn themselves out if you like allow them to, and it's like, it's really hard. I mean, Adam can talk about this. I don't sit in that side of the house as much. I mean, I like contribute to it, but I don't write the rules, right? Like I, I write the, the culture, you know, of like what the, what it's supposed to do. It is a thank, it is a thankless position. Very much. When we did, when we did Jim Connigrid, we dealt with a lot of that because people just, you know, they want to be competitive and they want to find loopholes. And for some people in the sport, finding the loophole is the fun part, right? Like for the person who's helping build a car or whatever, like that's, you know, that's the point. So how many years have you been doing grid life? So grid life started in 2014 officially, right? So a long time, you know, decade plus. So around, so you have 12 years worth of info of cars on track. Yes, I do. I have that data. I looked at it, right? I got, I got, I got bar graphs. I got circle charts. I got, I got those things. I know, so you're, I know, I know what people are doing. You're pretty qualified. You're more qualified. So he's, so he's bringing data metrics. He probably has a spreadsheet. Real numbers. I'm going to tell you what you're up against. You're up against two guys who've spent the past 20 some odd years working on grid life, 20 some odd years working in and around motorsports with no time to really do their own being in motorsports, but bench racing the shit out of a potential marketplace by as to how we're going to next year's the year we're going to build that car and we're going to go compete probably in grid life. So I have a lot of research done at one o'clock in the morning of what would be the perfect We have many dreams. We have many dreams. Not about time. We're fueled on dreams. You're fueled on data. Math or something. So anyway, I call it practicality. If you've already forgotten why we're here, we are here to debate the top five budget track day cars. And I think what we need to do right now is set up sort of the rules and the stipulations for what this is. So first up we have is the price. So the base car has to be bought for $15,000. And when I say base car, that means that the vehicle runs, drives, you can go purchase it and you can drive it home. And it also has to be readily available in the United States, meaning it could be a car that's important, but like you have to be able to easily find it. It can't be like there's only been like 15 of them imported into the U.S. That doesn't work. What were some of the other things we talked about? Do you remember ice cream test? Yeah. This one's really important. So explain the ice cream test. So the ice cream test is you have to be able to take a friend, a significant other, your spouse to get ice cream in it. After, after the track day. Yeah. So it was one of the rules where I talk about rules for the community, like that end up in our rule set. It's called the ice cream test. So in the Sunday, you know, Sunday cup club SC class, you, if you win that class, you have to, you actually have to go get ice cream. That's so sick. Like you have to go get ice cream and you have to bring someone with you. And like if you can't do that in your car, then that, yeah, then that car can't win. Yeah. It's just stripped it out too much. I mean, it doesn't have a seat, you know, like whatever. Because we also discussed in order for this to be a proper budget car, you have to drive it to the track. Because one, owning a truck, also owning a trailer and having a parking for that, there's no budget at all. No, even if you have the cheapest truck and cheapest trailer, it's not easy. I think it's a very common situation where you're just starting out, you're super into cars, but your daily driver is your only car. That's right. Your daily driver is going to be whatever you also have fun in. So that's kind of the idea. So it needs to be able to serve that purpose, right? You know, your day, it's your daily and you take it to the track and it has to take the stuff that you need. Right. For the track. The 15k does not include mods, but as we discussed, like mods have to be within reason. It can't be a car that requires a turbocharger or is like, I need to back half the whole car and redo all the suspension or to frame it. Like none of that works. It has to be the basic car in cello wheels, tire, suspension brakes. Those are the only mods you need for a track day. That's right. Period. But they are required on mostly any street car ever made. Maybe transmission. There are some cars. No, that's way too far. Yes, beneficial, right? But in order to get in order to get on the track, actually more from a reliability part and actually in order to get on the track, you just need to make sure like you don't even need good tires. I don't think you just need tires that don't. Yeah, that aren't going to be. Okay. Brakes brakes and fluid brakes and fluid. Yeah. Brakes and fluid, you know, like so arguably you should be able to go onto marketplace right now. Right now by the car. This moment. You know, you can pick it up and within one week, as long as you had the money set aside, go to a track day. That's right. That's fair. I like that. Right? I like it. That works. That works. By the way, if you're interested in how we came up with all of this, we did like another half hour pre-show to the show to discuss this on Patreon because I think we realized in the last firing order that I did with Mickey and Nads on the top JDM tuners, we probably should have had a conversation first. Well, you did, but it's Nads. So you guys talked about everything on the planet. We needed to put in some more limitations and things like that. So, and then I think one of the other ones, I think is the most important is that this is not about being competitive. It's about like bang for the buck. Dude for sure. Smiles per mile. Like it doesn't matter if you go to the track day and you get laughed on everyone as long as like you're having a really good time and you get to keep driving and you get a lot of seat time. I've seen it with a couple of friends of ours. Like on a track day alone, just chasing the fastest time forever faster than anybody else, that's a race to the bottom. You're just going to make a time attack car on accident. Whereas if you build something that just brings you joy and then you could develop yourself as a driver, the track day world championship, there's no prizes. There's no prizes for the track day world. Actually it's the opposite because you're more likely to blow your car up. Absolutely. Like destroy your kids college savings. Where you focus on the driving, focus on like getting better with you and with the car. Something else too on a regular track day, no one's watching you drive. Nobody's paying attention to the heater lap you just had. Maybe your girlfriend that you dragged out there. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe like one old dude who's like up there smoking a cigarette who like used to race 20 years ago. Yeah. He's not in a Fox body. But he doesn't think any of you are good. He hates all of you. He hates all of you. He's pissed that you're here. He misses when this was a circle track. Yeah, he's not. He's not. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. So that being said, like the point of having a good day on track is to go there, have fun and be able to drive the car home. That's right. Which is a good day. Yes. That's a really good day. All right. So without further ado, you're going to start. So for reminder of everyone how we do this, everybody has brought their list of five in no particular order. We will battle to take two of their cars, move them to the next level. We then move all the way through at the end that leaves us with six cars. Obviously we're trying to get five. One will have to die, but we also realize that there are probably a lot of blind spots. So the group of all of you who are on Patreon have given us a whole list of cars that we will then review before we make our final decisions to see if there's any swap outs. And then we will argue to the death for the final five and he wants them to all be on this. Anyway, maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not. In any particular order, you may start as the guest. Bring us your list. Yeah. So I brought a real practical approach to this. I've seen a lot of cars on track. I've seen a lot of fun had. I've seen a lot of heartbreak. Much heartbreak. And also, I'm from the Midwest, right? So thinking about a car that fits the like, this has got to be my car. So regional is really good. Yeah. Because like if you live in a track that's really fast, a slow car that's really technical may not be as much. That's not going to be. Well, even outside of like, I mean, we're blessed where we have like, we do have a lot of tracks. You got some variety. In a five hour rip. So starting off the list, Civic SI. Okay. Got it. So that's 2006 to 2011. Right. Okay. So next, the Scion Twins. Yes. Oh, sure. Yeah. And this would be this would be gen one because you really can get a scion for that price point. Yeah. Or you can still get a BRZ. Yeah. But Gen two is outside. Well, when I say scion twins, it's like the scion era of either of those. Okay. That makes sense. Before Toyota got me. Which is effectively like 13 to 16. Right. Right. Yeah. So 350Z. Okay. So talk about reliability. Talk about availability. It's not, not a, not a car that I like gravitate towards. Yeah. It's also got a pretty heavy drift and takeover tax on it right now. But we'll get to that. I guess I'm unaware. I'm not so unaware. Fiesta ST. Unconsidered. It's not unconsidered. It was probably on both of our lists. Well, in the data. Yeah. Small sliver. Yeah. Small sliver in the pie chart. Yeah. And the second gen Honda fit. Nice. Which is, which is probably my expected choice. That was your expected choice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's way under budget, right? So like with that car, you can get the car, you can get all the parts and you can run track days for four years for that budget. So there's something to be said about the longevity. Yeah. So I'm going to go ahead and say right off the bat, like we could probably just stop the show and a lot of people would say this is a good list. No way. No, no, no, no. I think like there's a lot of people. I think like this is a list that not saying your list is bad. I had 12 cards on my list. Okay. So I want to start with a car that I have zero experience in, but I know the lore of it being a very good track car, which is the SI. So like just give me why is that car on the list because it's something that's just like not, it's not on my radar at all. Is that I love like 90 civics. Yeah. And like I understand like why the new like civic type art is cool. No, so that's the just okay. Yeah. So I mean, if you want to get into like kind of some of the nuance, right? Like so civic was kind of the reemergence, you know, of what the, you know, like Honda's heritage, you know, like this, the six skin is the SI that you know, right? And then the one before that was like the EP three or was that the EP was cool, but like a little bit like that's a little shift around the right. And then, you know, you get into, you know, kind of a housing crisis era stuff, right? So not a lot of like real impactful refreshes at that particular point in time. By the way, I have never heard an era of cars as the housing crisis. 2008. I get it. But like if you remember that point in time where it's like, man, all the, all the enthusiasm cars are going away, right? Like it's the right. It's the rise of the crossover. Like how boring Toyota was for like 15 years. They had nothing cool. And now they're one of the coolest brand. Yeah. We can call it the rise of the crossover. Yep. So, so Civic SI, uh, yeah, uh, K20Z three, right? So, you know, K series, great motor, right? Yeah. A lot of support, um, limited slip, you know, from, from, from the factory. That is nice. Yeah. From the factory. I think my whole list is limited slip from the factory, which is a really underrated. By the way, before, before when I said the one thing you might have to change is like transmission stuff. Nope. Not on my list. Is what he meant to say. Cause in my head I was like, you know, some things like an LSD can really change our contrast. The fit doesn't have one, but that's, but it doesn't really make enough power to need one. Uh, it's not, have you driven a lot of front wheel drive cars? The LSD really can change. It really, really, I mean, I guess I've only ever driven LSD front wheel drive cars on track. It really can make a difference. Cause otherwise you like, you literally just put no power. Cause I guess I take the grand and the like the Elantra, the Elantra and I raced. Our two years ago had a really good diff. That's what makes that car in a way. The front wheel drive diff on that thing is super developed. Yeah. It's point and shoot. Yeah. Yeah. It's point and shoot. So, so just with any, with any Honda product, particularly like the Civic SI, right? It's just, it's just, it just checks all the boxes. It's not particularly like flashy or like overly exciting, you know, or any of those things. What can they be had for right now? What's the price point on? Like eight. Eight. Yeah. Like, yeah. So you've got some room to spend. You got some room to spend, right? You can get a really good example. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for more, you could get, you know, like, so they're ranged, right? But like they, you know, but you can find them around, I think for like, you know, eight, nine, you know, in that, in that era, right? But it's just like a great daily, you know, great aftermarket support, you know, and, you know, just as far as like livability plus being able to throw it around, you know, and not worry about it, right? Like you can beat the shit out of it, you know, and, and. The other nice thing is if you do put it off, actually, this isn't even a fact. And there's probably a lot of, yeah. There's, and you could go to any junkyard and get a door and a windshield and a panel and whatever. Just like normal people cars. Because if you have a car that you're scared to track day, because if you go into a wall, you're going to drive slower, you're not going to drive as well. Where if you're eating that thing into corners, like front wheel drive car, especially like big commitment cars, and you're not super afraid of crunching a tail light or a fender or whatever, that's, that isn't precious. I have never seen you be afraid to crash anything I've ever seen you drive. I'm also an idiot. Are there all things that you own? Some of them. Yeah. Again, like I'm missing, I'm missing pieces up here. It's not, it's not precious. It's kind of the people's champ, right? It's got broad shoulders. It's blue collar, you know, from a track day perspective, I think. Yeah. You know, I like it. All right. So the other one we might also stay in the Honda theme is the fit because to me, I feel like this is like the modern Miata. And here, and here's my thing on this whole is that like hands down and well, I don't know, maybe not as on someone's list. Everyone thinks it should be the answer, right? Like I've seen that sticker like Mazda, the Miata is the answer. But I also think one of the things that made the Miata so cool was that, and I was there when the car came out, like I remember when the car was new and my friend's mom got it, was that it was sort of seems like the hairdresser car. And then all of a sudden it became like one of the most race cars on the weekend. And it became this like, if you made, if you were like a normal car person who didn't know about racing and you made fun of the Miata, somebody would show up and be like, you got faster than an I11 on track. They would hit you with all the stuff, most race car on the weekend. They're not wrong. They're not wrong. Big shout out to like Dean Case and the guys over at Mazda like when they were, they supported that in that era. The Miata did become the most tracked car on the weekend and all the stuff. And, and it became this amazing car. But part of its heroic element is because it is slightly the unexpected car. And I think the fit is like that new car that when someone looks at a fit, the average person doesn't go, wow, that could be a great race car. That is performance. No, it's like a micro minivan. Yeah. So the fit, I think the fit is great because it's so unexpected as a as a good track car and it's not necessarily the best track car, but it's the most fun that I've had in the last decade is driving a fit. Right. Because it eliminates one. It's it's full, you know, full truckable, right? Like like full risk, 12. Every corner. 12 tenths, 10 quarter. It's the epitome of driving a slow car fast. Yes. And, and the like, you know, I, I have like a bit, you know, even though I'm like into tracking, there's like a bit of there's an anxiety to tracking, right? You know, like every time you go out there, right? You know, especially if you approach it like kind of without ego, you know, and you that goes away with that car, right? So you can you can refine small details. You can work on your specifics, right? And you can just like absolutely blast it. There's really something to be said about that. Number number three, you know consumables zero. Because it's so lightweight. It just, yeah, one set of tires, 12 days, you know, like, you know, like maybe, right? Like so, you know, just like budget and it's an excellent pickup truck, right? The amount of stuff that you can put in the back of a fit, you know, like also sleep in it, you can also sleep in it. Yeah. Right. So like you want like one thing that like you can get to the track, you can run the track all weekend, you can get home, you know, you can run the next track day, you can have money left over and you can just keep sending it. And you can make them look cool. You can make them look cool, right? Like so, I mean, yeah, Sam Dooling, who is runs our tech. He, so he's an example of like perfect fit lifestyle, right? He's got a first, first gen fit. The second gen fit is just a significantly more progressed and better car as a car because the fit didn't come to the States till oh, six or something. But it was, but it existed from O2. Yeah. Right. So we got like a four year old car. Do you remember when the car first came out? Because print mags were still a thing. Remember they did an entire mag on like that segment of car, like Super Street did like a spin off. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Cause when they, when they, when that car first came out, it was, everyone thought it was cool because the Civic was getting fatter and this felt more like the fit is 100% the spiritual successor to the EF hatch. They feel the same on track. They feel the same on the street. That's how I always felt about the ones. You're really selling me. I'll see that. They do. It's just like, it's so much. I get, I get my, my, my son has a fit now. You know, so like that's his first car and you're like, God, it's such a blast. I love it. You have all those small cars that were popular in like Europe or in Asia that we never got. Yeah. And then they started to bring them in and like that idea of like the spiritual successor, um, you know, of the car, cause you think the one series for me is closer to an E30 or 36. Yeah. Yeah. Or like the M2 is like the true. Yeah. Three of these days. Yeah. But also like for, for in like the Volkswagen side of things, like I had a Audi A1, which is like a car not sold in the U.S. And it to me felt like a Mark three, even though it was like a $20,000 and 11. That's why I loved it because even though it was a newer car, like the, they kind of escaped the blow. And then you just realized that the only problem with new cars is they just got too big. They're too big. They're too big. All right. So we need to push through the list. Yeah. 350Z. We're, is that like top of your list? No. This is, this is data driven, right? Like, so I don't, I, if I, if I look at something that like has a lot of flexibility, you know, it's, it's rear wheel drive, right? So because that's a preference, right? Like I've, I've tracked front wheel drive cars, you know, for forever, you know, so, you know, it's rear wheel drive, right? VQ engine's got a ton of support, right? You know, it's got, it's got, it's got versatility, right? So like you enter into, you know, track day culture and want to move into drift culture and want to have longevity out of this vehicle. Tons and tons of flexibility, you know, and people know how to make them last. Yeah. It's not, it's not as like, you know, it's unfortunately only available as a three speed, but the CD09 is just one of the weirdest. I don't have it. I don't have it. It has like a usable, like, I don't know. The power band is weird. Yeah. So like, I don't know. I don't know. There's new ones. Unstretched tracks could be pretty advantage because it is some of the power level it comes with. It's like, it's very long gear. It's not a sports car cumbersome as a package as like a C five or something like that. Right. So it like has a little bit more flexibility as like a, as like a real car, you know, like every day, you know, and, you know, and like swappable Japanese parts. Right. So like, you know, still, still inexpensive to keep on the track and keep going as long as you don't straight pipe it. It sounds good. Yeah. Like, I will go out there and say the stock VQ just sounds great. My mom had a 350. She bought it brand new and like it was in manual, great car. Sounds fun. Like it's actually, I actually fit factory LSD. And depending on your factory, Brembo's. Yeah. All right. Um, I mean, of his list, what, what, what do you, what would you, what would you push forward? What would I push forward? Yeah. I'm sold on the fit. Yeah, I am too. Dude, I think the fit is an instant win because I think you need, we need a car on this list that is that type of car. Right. Well, they talk about like the time attack classes, right? You can almost break them up by like cost of operation, right? And that's why club SC exists as a class because like the car is cheap, the cost of operating is cheap. So it's like cheap period, fun period. For sure. You know, like, yeah. So fit moves forward. And I, my opinion is that the twins, we didn't get super deep on them, but, uh, I think the twins move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I even ask questions about it because it's so good. Now I will say gen one, 40 less horsepower, which is, which is a lot in that car. Like losing 40 horsepower on the car and it's 60% less stiff than the newer gen. You can fix some of that, but not all of it. Yeah. Um, cause it's chassis. It gets more expensive to make it faster. Yeah. But like, so if you, if, and I'm just saying this, we have rules, which is under 15 grand. Yeah. But if you're shopping a $13,000 FRS or like a later BRZ that is the newer gen, I would get the newer one. Oh, every time. But I don't think you can get a newer gen one for under 15. Uh, maybe like, like, I tried. I tried last night. No, you can't. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. They're 20 plus. Like I just had a BRZ a couple of weeks ago, just cause I wanted to drive it again. Cause we did the, the best driver's car and he made the list on best driver's car. Pretty high. I was like, I just want to go drive it again. And then I went and did like half day of canyons and I was like, yeah, this thing's great. It's just, it's just fun. Now what I will say, if you live anywhere that's in any kind of altitude, like if you're living in Utah and you want to do track days, avoid the twins at all costs. Avoid it all. That's the first time I ever drove one and I thought it was broken. Right. I was like, this is, this can't be something's wrong. All right. So fit moves forward, twins move forward. There's all the really good ones on that list, but maybe we'll get back to them. All right, Ron. Yeah. Do you feel okay with those two moving forward? I do. I mean, I would like in between like the, if you could pick your two, what were your two? I'd get a fit. You know, I get, I'd get a fit or a, or a GI dude. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I think so. Like I put the, the Civic SI is like actually the more balanced package of the two Hondas, right? Like it has, it has more, but it's the fit just become cooler. Yeah. I love the fit when it came out. And when Dan was running, when danger Dan was running the fit, uh, a good life, he was like, he would call me and be like, dude, you need to get one of these. Yeah. Cause he knows that I enjoy that super lightweight. Like I would prefer a lighter weight car than a fast car. Like I just enjoy the challenge. I will also say that's a big factor that isn't in our rule set right now, but I think the fit being so accessible to your friends that you could convince your friend to get one, even if they don't have a 15 K budget, but I'm seeing out here, there's a movement of like, there's like a fit gang and they'll go on track and they'll go door to door, bumper to bumper. And it doesn't matter because it's so much fun, right? Like, let's buy fit. Let's buy fit. Let's buy fit. There's no, there's no, uh, yeah, it's not precious. You know, and if we think about the journey of, of track day two, right? So like, I thought about this from the perspective of like, I want a track car. I'm starting this. Yeah. You know, um, so like there's room to grow and you're not going to like blow your budget. You also like, here's a weird thing. Like, like the, the ability to mob the fit is, is limited. It has a ceiling, right? So you will reach the driving potential of that vehicle and then you will have to move on. And that's what you're supposed to do anyway. Sure. You know, otherwise you're going to credit card race. You still enjoy going and racing it. Like if you move on, but kept it, you'll always love going back. It's fun. It serves you. But moving from a fit to like a big boy car, you will wreck any other driver that just started in the big boy. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Again, the Miata of our time. Cause the Miata was that. All right. All right. What do you got? So I actually have, I want to say the Miata time. I also think the BRZ or the twins, whatever is also the modern Miata. That's, that's going to, that's going to be the hero replacement for the Miata. That's actually not as available. Easily. Yeah. Let's wait for this with your list. Okay. I actually have two lists. I'll go through one right now. Two lists? You get one list. I have the obvious list. You're going to want this other one. You have a goblin list? I have the obvious list and a goblin list. Okay. This is like things that nobody would think of, but I've seen on track and I'm like, we might have to save the goblin list for Patreon. I don't know if we got that time, but let's go. Let's go. All right. Obvious list. C5 Corvette. You could still get them 10 to 15 K. It was on my list. I'm not fighting you. I'm not fighting you move through. Yeah. Okay. Acura RSX Type S. Okay. E46 330 CI. Portia Boxster S. And I also had the Fiesta ST. I'm going to start off by saying I've done a lot of research into the Boxster S. Yeah. And the number one thing that comes out is that that particular engine has oil, like start oil cooling. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And it's a high maintenance response to it because like, yeah. And I figure what that is, is like the M96 M97 engine. Like it is notorious. Now there's also plenty of people if you just like anything on the internet. If you want to find, if you want to find comfort in buying that car, someone will tell you that like they, you know, AccuSump makes, you know, this and you can get, you know, you can get this different pan for it. But right out the box. You're focusing on a problem. There's a good chance that you're going to bore score that thing. Yeah. It's on the list because I think that's such an easy way to get into a Porsche on track. Yeah. It's really cool. For sure. Like also, it is a fantastic driving car. Yeah. It handles really well. The only reason it's never on any of my list is that it's a sub six one driver fit. Like you would be like at the brink with a helmet. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little tight. And they got a bit nerfed from the factory to not beat the 911. Yeah. It's also the expensive hairdresser car. Like it definitely filled that space. Yeah. It's not that cool. But but you're still in a Porsche. I think the Cayman's really cool looking. It's weird. Just what the Cayman is. It came in. Cayman, you can't make the list. I looked at it. It's too expensive. Too expensive. Yeah. So you can buy a Boxster for like a dollar. You can buy a Boxster. You can buy a Boxster. You can get them for like five grand. You can get them for five grand, fix your engine issues and then be on your merry way. You can get them, you know, and not fix your engine issues until the next track day for like just get another one. You can buy. No, but just like. You can buy three Boxers and make one good one. Yeah. You know what? Boxers back on the list. Boxers back on the list. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, because I looked at it too, because obviously being a Porsche guy, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, the Boxster, maybe I don't fit in it, but I've driven them uncomfortably, but I've driven them. They're, I mean, I, there's an argument that the Boxster is a better handling car than the 911. Sure. How you would argue the Cayman GT4 is a better handling car. Yeah. The same argument that people made when the 944 came out. And practicality. It's more balanced. Practicality very low. Yeah. But women factor higher. Also when you're like at like a, you know, like a neighborhood party. Totally. Like, Hey, like do you race cars? Like, yeah, I race a Porsche. I race a Honda. Yeah. Yeah. Me and my buddies, we race a Honda. What's that? Is that like a motorcycle? Yeah. No, it's. Oh, that's the scooter, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. So, C5 Vet. What's your opinion on a C5 Vet? Because I think like. Over dominator, right? Like it's just it's a sports car, right? You know, like proper, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's so C5 Corvette. Not a not a not a bad answer for sure. Right. Like. But also a high consumable. Yeah. High high consumable, but like a lot of a lot of range on it, right? Like so you, you know, you can get a lot of life out of that car and like overcook it. I mean, you can enter, I guess, in the time attack classes, you're kind of stuck to a couple, but, you know, but you can, you know, it's on the upper end. I would definitely do SimTime before getting in it on track. For sure. Right. If that if that if there, if you're looking for like an expanding challenge that is associated with with raw speed, the C5 is a really, really good. And you can stay with that car for a decade. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And it's pretty, it's pretty bulletproof, you know, like. Great gas mileage. The hatch is pretty good. Yeah. You could fit a lot. You could fit a set of tires in the back hatch. It's decently comfortable as like a tourer, you know, yeah. It hits a lot of those points. And I would say I didn't even think about that factor, but if you've never driven on track, it's probably not a great idea to be in one. The one other one I would bring up on that is like, it is not an easily serviceable car. I don't know if you remember the C5 we had at Hoonigan. Certain things. But like doing a clutch job doing a clutch is massive. It sucks. Like it without a lift, like it's not the like easy lift. It's not like something you can service on four jack stands in your garage. But it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good car. Yeah. Yeah. That one that one. And there's always someone in the paddock with the C5. And if you wanted to also go drifting, it's like pretty turnkey drift. Very much so. It's pretty good. So I want to talk about the E36. Okay. So E36 versus 46. Did you have E46? E46 was on my list and that's where the Z and 46 were flip flopping. I don't know enough about BMWs. Okay. Right. So like in general. So like, but why and but I found that like E36 is at least in the variants. Yeah. You know, are kind of riding the line. They're like going up in price. So the E36 is very popular because a nostalgia thing. They look really cool. That's like the first M3 anybody really remembers. Like the E30 was like the older head kind of car. It's arguably golden era Euro. Yeah. It's what's really hot right now. And I think the E46 is on its way there. The E46 to me is like a car that's got a lot more in it. So like I don't you can't get into an E36 M3, a decent one for 15 grand anymore. Right. The E46 330 I is very close to an M3. 46. Yeah. I went through the same thing and putting it together in my list and it's like the E46 has better engine options in the mid level. Yeah. Then the E36 did. Yeah. Like the E36 outside of the M3 is like not as great. And the E36 just needs a lot more to be track viable in my opinion. Like BMW, I don't have a crazy amount of experience. Somebody might eviscerate me, but in my experience, the chassis needs more work. It needs more money. Like it's not as fast where the 46 is super balanced. Great engine options. Great transmission. It does have all that issues of like tearing the subframe and the suspension. Like minor 46 is your choice. I heard 36. No, no, he said 46 is my choice. No, he did say yeah. We're aligned, but that still explains it because the reason I didn't put it on my list is because I didn't feel confident in my familiarity with it. So the 330 I is that little number two. The other thing to the other thing to at the 46 is that the 36 was still in an era where like dentists owned BMWs. Yeah, sure. The 46 was like your like, you know, like the person across the like a normal person to own to 46 like that. Like BMW kind of dropped down a little bit, sold a lot more cars. It's got more accessible out there. There's more in yards. I personally think that the 36 looks better. I kind of like how the 36 drives better. But the 46 is it's a lot. It's a lot of car. The only BMWs I've ever owned and you could get a 330 I in the tens. Yeah, that's a lot of car for 10 grand. Yeah. Yeah. And like the basic engines, like pretty decent. It's pretty stout. I mean, it's the reason why it is like replaced like a 30 28. That's where you have to like really nerd out. You have to pick the right. That's why 330 is like very specific on there because that with suspension arms and transmission diff selection. Again, that's the I think it's a 2.5 liter inline six like N a right. It's not quite the M3 motor. It's not the, you know, S 54. But and there's also a massive aftermarket for it. Huge. I mean, there's so much stuff out there that ranges from like the like the guys who make swap kits and knuckles or whatever in the drift world all the way to like full blown like actual race car people. Yeah. Right. Like like like turner, like garage. Is this stick like and then all the guys in Europe who are not. Yeah, we don't even think about we're like building real race car. Yeah. All right. What else you got on here? We've got I want to talk about the RSX. Yeah. So this is a car that has now you brought it up for one of you guys brought it up for the best. I it was it was on my list. It's on my list for many things. It's reappeared on this. I think it's slept on. I think there's a lot of them. And that's brought up the other day. I think the SI is the same car. Oh, like they're probably very similar. Is it the same years? Is that the same similar? Yeah, yeah. Same time. They're they're hot swappable. Right. Those are. Yeah. That's the same dude. To me, to me, it's a look thing because like I really like I love Integras like the other is where my heart's at. Basically, and that's the spiritual. Yeah, it is. And and you can make them look really cool. I love them when they came out. I love them now. I brought this conversation up with Nads. And Nads actually said that like he thinks it's like you're not missing much. Because I said, I was like, do I need to go drive this car? Because one, the Patreon list brought it up. You and you and Vinny both were like, yeah, this is a car to go drive. And it just is like not on my radar. Yeah. When did it come out? 2003. Yep. So it was effectively like the must have driven this. I was a journalist during this era. You very well. Yeah, it came out after the, you know, the. Yeah, it was the end of DC to. Yeah, yeah. And then the RSX came out and then that's when the EP Civic came out and the RSX was the clear choice between those two. If you were a Honda enthusiast. For sure. Yeah, Honda's feel. It's a lot of that spirit. Right. Yeah, you get into a, you know, a Civic Si of any gen. You get into an RSX of any gen. You get into a CRV, you know, like it feels like a Honda. That's funny. Right. You know, like. And what does that feel from a Honda guy? It's just, it's just like a different level. Like you can hear the wind through all the crevices and cars. And that's that the feel. That's the feel. That in a strong, strong. Man, I wonder how. I wonder how. I did to my door panels. I wonder how thin this glass is. I mean, I think that's changed a lot, like, you know, in, in modern. Modern. Yeah, yeah. In modern era. But like, no, it's just, it's just a steering feel and like, like kind of, you know, it's like I get into the NSX and it feels like the CRX. You know, like you just like, you know, it's like the same design language. It's really familiar. Right. Like, you know, just, just all this, like kind of nuance and like, you know, how connectedness, how it feels and how you're connected to it. Yeah. You know, so when I get into like a 992 GT3 RS, it feels just like a Volkswagen. Right. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Pretty much a beetle. Yeah. It's pretty much a beetle. Yeah. Pretty much a beetle. So like as far as like, because on my list, like the Civic would be, you know, I don't know, like it's. You have a connection to it. I fight for it because like if you, if one, the data supports it, right? That's number one, Honda, right? Like you go to a track day, you know, you're going to see. Honda's. You're going to see a car in that lineage, right? Because there's like parts from this RSX that can fix that car, vice versa. Same, same thing, right? You know, and in racing too, like Honda dominates. I went and looked at the runoffs winners in the IT category in 1986. Honda wins, you know, like an every year, every year, right? So just, just having like who won an 85. I don't know. I didn't go for that far back. Yeah. But anyway, we'll get back to that. Of course. Let's just write it right ahead. I right now vote to move the E46 forward. 100%. Like it was, it was on my list. It's a no brainer. Yeah. I'm happy with that. So I think now the conversation is what other car. Yeah. But you got, you got some good cars on this. You do. So I'm fighting for my, for my Honda family. I'm going to say because of the limitations with the boxer from a maintenance side or some of the. I'm okay with that one being out. It, it, it, like, I think it definitely deserves mention. I think it should end up in the back. I think it's only on the list because it's a Porsche. It's not actually like a great choice. You're saying like a Pontiac Solstice, maybe just as good. Another road. So you know, it's a car that people don't talk about. Another one BMW Z three. What, what's the Pontiac Solstice maybe good and nobody knew it? Maybe. No, it's not. I drove it on track. I don't know. Yeah. It was, it was pretty soft. You just mentioned one of my goblin list cars. This Saturn Sky. Tune in to the Patreon for the goblin list because I have my own goblin list. He has a goblin list. We're going to do a whole goblin list on Patreon, but let's keep, let's keep it on. So, okay, that's out. The Fiesta ST. I put on my list because I feel like it should be on the list, but it never will be. There's nothing that the ST can do that the RSX or the fit or the fit can't. Yeah. I would argue that the, I would argue that the it's closest competitor is the fit. It's about the same size. That's right. But they're, they're, I mean, like power wise, they're. No, no, no, the ST is almost 200 horsepower. It's 190. I owned a Fiesta and I owned a fit. The Fiesta is a garbage car compared to the fit in every single aspect. Garbage on track though. Everything, everything about it. The, the interior packaging, the, the switches, the knobs, the feel, you know, like, like the UX. Yeah. All of it, like just as a car. It's funny because me and him have a lot of experience in the Fiesta ST because of Ken's sponsorship with Ford and that car we brought over, but they were given to us like disposable candies. So we just were like, whatever. Like we didn't care that none of that works because it was like, I don't know. We just crashed another one. I mean, we ended up giving what, like 30 of them to Timo Neil, which they're still going, I drove some of those last year. Garbage cars may be a little bit harsh, but like by comparison to the Honda fit, because they, they're in category. They're like up their head to head for the, the common consumer. Sure. Like not even close, but you can get it. Not even close. But you can get an ST for about the same price as a fit. Yes. And the ST is making just shy of 200 horsepower. It's probably a 1.6 turbo. That's a pretty decent. It's probably a more exciting car right out the rip because of its speed. Right. Right. And its ability to make speed and it's got an LSD as well. I think, you know, and it was designed for that, right? It was designed as a hot hatch. The fit like accidentally became one because it was so thoughtful in every other aspect, right? You know, like, man, what a diss. You tried to build a performance car and Honda just accidentally built one just because that's our DNA. That's what they do. I mean, I still don't think the fit is a performance car, but it's a great crack day car, right? So from his list, we moved forward the fit and the twins and the twins. Okay. I feel like if E 46 moves forward, the RSX, RSX has to be there instead of the ST. Yeah. So you guys both feel I agree. I agree. I agree with that. Right. So that checks the box of like, because the, the Civic, the RSX, there's there's similar chassis. So now between those two and the C five, C five vet, like, so, by the way, we are stacking a heavy front wheel drive class. No, I understand. I think it makes a lot of sense, but it's budget, but I mean, it's front wheel drive is a very compact system. Definitely less things to break. For me, it's the battle of C five vet versus 46. And I think the deciding factor there, and I don't know the answer, but it's, I would pick the C five all day, any day, but I have, you know, I'm very lucky to have a lot of driving experience. So the C five is way more exciting to me, but starting out, I think E 46 would be better and just from a longevity standpoint. Like, yeah. So E 46 and RS six is what we're saying. I would, I mean, between the RSX and the C five, I would choose the C five and I'm a Honda guy. So like I am going to be heartbroken that the SI, if the SI doesn't make the list and the RSX doesn't make the list, but I also think that it would be in the price point for a track day cars. If the C five is mentioned and doesn't make the list, that is, I completely agree with that. For me, it's either C five or E 46 to move forward because they're very similar than E 46. Yeah. My top three from your list are the vet, the 46 and the Fiesta ST mainly because I have experience in all three of them. The big difference is, is like what the RSX gives you is V tech and not even as a joke, like part of the fun factor of being in a car is like, even if you're not going that fast, when you're at 8,000 RPM, you feel like you're ripping. You feel like a hero. Yeah. You know, versus a ST is like lower in the Rev range. It's a little lazier, like you'll feel be fast, but like experience wise, are you going to go home and be like, bro, I can't wait to do that again. But say that same thing now and you're comparing a C five vet. Yeah. But the C five vet is like, you know, I can't believe I made it home. And by the way, I can't afford to go back to the track because I smoked those tires and I flat spotted those and which is cool. Cause like sound of that, the sound of the, the V eight, like just playing over your head when you're powering out of a corner, like so sick. That's what is it? We got to move forward guys. Well, who chooses like who chooses the group as a group. Yeah. I think we've narrowed it down. Here's what I'm hearing. We've narrowed it down to the E 46 moves forward. We've all agree there. Right. E 46 C five vet. R S X. I think the C five moves forward. Right. So like if I was, let's do the quick vote because it always comes down to a vote we can make this work. Yeah. Is it C five vet. R six C five vet. C five vet. That's it. I mean, between those two C five. Yeah. Cause I would have chosen that SI over the R 46 or R S X E 46. E 46. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. You did it both back to back. I know you want the R six to move forward, but that's fair. Okay. So here we are. This is where we currently sit. We have from your side, we have the twins, AKA the FRS BRZ. And we also have the second gen Honda fit. Yep. You were brought to the table, the BMW E 46 330 I. And in addition, the C five vet. That's where we stand. All right. We're going to take a quick little break. We'll come back and I'll give you guys my list, which is probably also a goblin list. Here we are with another story time interruption brought to you by my good friends at FCP Euro. Look, if you are a frequent listener, a very vehicular, you know that I have been threatening to call the herd cell cars. That's what I've been threatening to do a couple of days ago. I decided, you know what, I'm going to make the first step and the first step is posting a feeler post. See who's interested. And to my dismay, a lot of people were interested. The car in question is my 1991 Audi 200 Avant 20 valve turbo. The problem is it just doesn't fit what I want right now. I got a couple of other wagons. I think I want to swap this out for something else. I figured put it up on the chopping block over the weekend. I decided it was time to clean it up, take those photos, try to actually move it and sell it. Unfortunately, I fell back in love. How could I possibly get rid of it? So I deleted the post and immediately went to scpero.com and just started filling the cart with a bunch of things. Because see, for me, if I have a lot of parts to finish a car, it makes it a lot harder to sell, right? I mean, this, this makes sense. So I started getting all the basics. And the first thing is suspension bushings. This immediately makes a car better. It had a squeaky belt. I replaced that. I needed a clutch master, pick that up and a few other things. And of course, a whole bevy of liquid moly fluids, you know, because it makes the car feel happier. So anyway, I did all that. And I guess the car is not for sale anymore. If you two are looking for an excuse not to sell a car, head over to scpero.com, invest in some more parts and get that project of yours back on the road and off of the classified posts. Keep it off of marketplace guys. Stop selling cars unless you're selling them to me. Let's face it. Living the low life does come with its drawbacks. When I first got my RWB 911, there were only three gas stations in all of Long Beach I could get into without ripping the front bumper off. Luckily, KW suspensions then introduced the hydro lift system to raise your car to adult heights. The HLS 2 lifts the front axle while the HLS 4 lifts them all. It's available as a complete kit or an add-on to your existing KW coilovers. And it works up to 50 miles an hour, meaning you don't have to take every dip in the road at that douchey 45 degree two mile an hour crawl. Check out kw suspensions.com to find a kit for your slammed ride. I love that you just start by laughing. Scott O's smile of just what you're packing in that notebook right now is probably this is my favorite part of firing. I actually think I might disappoint you because I think you will. One, I have a lot of overlap from everybody else. And as I started to go through my list, because we created the rule of no engine swaps, it really makes a lot of the cars that I would normally go after not work. So for example, I love the 944. I think it's a really fun platform. It's a fantastic driver. The car and the chassis is really good, but like the stock 911, I mean, the stock 944 engine is pretty lackluster and the car needs either inline five swap. Shout out to the Booth brothers or turbocharging or like an LS swap. Like it's one of the cars that is actually the current engine in it. It takes so much effort and work to make it. Not just like really sporty, but viable. So I just like, but at the same time, I mean, spec 944 exists. Like, you know, like I actually did look at 944s as well. But same thing, like kind of a semi gutless engine by comparison. Unless you get the turbo, the turbo is 20 grand plus now. It's not as inexpensive. Right. Right. Right. And in this list in general, I think the audience will notice not a lot of turbo cars. And I think that's by design, right? Like I might change that on my list. Okay. Nice. Well, let's get into it. Okay. So, uh, at the top was, was the Corvette C five on the, on the things that were even said, because it's just for like enjoyment. Yeah. Like I know it's going to not be the easiest. I know it's going to be the one that's going to have a ton of issues and have like, you know, the consumable element, but you can also get most of the parts for Napa, which is kind of nice. No, right. Like you can race that anywhere in America and not only find parts for it, but find someone who knows how to work on it. Yeah. Because it's like, and you can race it in a, in a variety of applications, right? Like there's, there, it's almost everything. Yeah. Yeah. And having gotten to once drive a Pratt and Miller C six, like, I know the capability of where that car can end up at the end. Right. Like how I love, I love the growth path of it. Yeah. And like, was the comp you wear like that era, like so good cars are just like, all the time, but we've already said it. We've already moved it forward. Uh, the twins was also on my list. I just like, it's, it's that car that I don't know if I would ever own one, but like I'm a huge champion for it. I, I, I'd look at it, uh, and think about owning it several times over. I don't know if I'd ever actually own one. I need, I'm just, I'm about an inch too big for it, but like a new seat could change that, but I'm an inch too big to own it every day. Yeah. It's still like being for a small Japanese car, the fact that it fits my six foot eight frame is pretty amazing. Like I can still turn laps in it. I have to do this with a helmet, but like, it kind of works. I wouldn't pass any actual regulation cause I have no room. If I wasn't, if I wasn't gravel obsessed, I would be in one today. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. So the next one for me is another repeat. And this is what always becomes a problem because it means that my list ends up being my two goblins. Because I just repeat all the ones, but this is one that didn't make it for me, which is the fiesta ST. Yeah. And I think there's something really that is a car that it was on all, that's the only car that's on all three of our lists. So even though we like haven't moved it forward yet, very interesting. It's very interesting. And for me, I think it has a lot to do with one, the small chuck ability of it. The engine is 1.6 turbo is a fun motor, 200 horsepower out the box. Like they're really affordable. I mean, you can find them for like seven or eight grand, which is really, really good buy for what that car is. Um, and then, uh, I will go to, uh, this one, which maybe I just, this is an entire platform space or configuration that we have not talked about, which is we have no all wheel drive cars on our list. GDWRX. He's given me a look of like that's a nightmare. I mean, if you want to oil down the track, that's a good choice. Oh, spoken from experience. Yeah. I mean, you had one, but I considered it. Yeah. Like it's, it's in the affordable space. Look, the Audi guy and me wanted to say an Audi, but like there's no Audi for that price that is reliable and isn't going to be a huge nightmare. Maybe in our S four would be kind of fun. I mean, uh, S four would be kind of fun, but like a B five S four, but like, they're a huge pain to work on when things go wrong. They're not that easy to service. And I, the minute I say it, Ron's like, the engine's in front of the struts, which is not only that, I think the, the reason why you don't see a lot of all wheel drive cars on here is because like a GD is a amazing daily, really fun in different conditions and everything on the track. It will not make you a better driver because you're just fighting understeer. And with that car, it's an open diff in the back. It's an open diff up front, like the centers, you know, not breakable. So there's, you would have to do so much to it to make it rotatable. Yeah. That like you're out of your range. The problem is, is the STI, which I think is a better option because you do have, if you could find an STI for 15 grand. The thing is, is 15, you're getting the bottom of the barrel for it. Dogged. Like it. Yeah. They used to be that you could pick them up there. I mean, I bought, I bought my STI for 12 grand. I got my EVO RS for 15. Yeah. Unfortunately, unfortunately, good ones are way, are now in the 20s and the ones that are left over or like have just, they have seen a life you don't want to know. And I think the problem is like the anxiety of, uh, you know, like you can stay flat out in a Honda all day, every day, every lap, don't worry, pull it back in, whatever. Within EJ, unfortunately, like you're always kind of worried, is this going to blow up, is this going to, whatever. And the transmission on those years is in great either. We have a lot of, uh, Subaru's in the grid life ecosystem. So, for sure. So they do, they do. Great platform. Yeah. People do track that. I also looked at the Gen after, I forget what that one is, but the 2008 era. Those are much better. Yeah. I looked at that as well. Having driven both, I just enjoy how the, the, like the GD, it just feels like a lighter car. It's more comfortable. The steering feels better. Like you've drove, you had yours, which is the reason you're named Ron Carr, cause we called that car Ron Carr. That's right. Um, but like you have, you know, you had a lot of experience in that car in a very modified world, like your car. From bone stock, cause I started my first track day I did in it. I just had wheels and tires. Yeah. And then I evolved it to like full swap everything, you know, um, and it's an amazing mid-range car. The thing that it lacks is the simplicity of a lot of the other cars that we've talked about, right? So like that's really, it's only like detriment. It certainly is an option. It certainly is viable. If we're looking at like cheap track day car, it doesn't, doesn't come up. Cause what you're saying is even though the chassis can be accessible, found what it takes to make it better or to make it compete. Yes. No, I mean, not necessarily. It's just, it's just, it's just the, uh, I wouldn't even necessarily say that they're not reliable. They just have more things that could, could go wrong, could go wrong. That could break. Right. It's a more, it's more complicated. You know, um, you know, just being an all wheel drive system, you know, like there's just more, it's just more to deal with. So let me ask you a question. If it was an STI, absolutely. Yeah. It would, it would be high up on this list, but it's hard to find them in that price. And yeah. By the way, if anyone's got a nice white blob by, let me know. Two. I'd like to buy one. A Hawkeye for me. Yeah. Yeah. I still wouldn't put it on the track day list. For me, as a track day car. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's like one of the first real, I think like accessible turbo cars. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Now I'm like remembering that era, right? And like just how much of a splash that, and like when the Evo like finally came, you know, stateside, it was like, the arms race started. It was ape shit. You know, like, I remember my buddy Sterling like sold, he like showed up. We used to have this, uh, meet every Thursday, T bell night. So it was like, we'd go to Taco Bell every Thursday. Hell yeah. Park in the parking lot, you know, get, get some T bell and hang. You know, and then Sterling. He calls it T bell. I know. Yeah. T bell all day. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then Sterling showed up, bought like quietly bought, you know, the Evo. That doesn't let anybody know. Yeah. Yeah. And then he like, then he like rolled up or like, fuck is that? You're like, oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. I'll never forget that. That was a rad, a rad. That era, like defined the car world for me. Yeah. WRC was on speed channel. Yes. Watching the whole season, learning who Petter Solberg is, watching these cars, you could get the same thing at the dealership. You get one, the Evo nine came out and with a downpipe and a tune, somebody ran 11, nine. Yeah. And like that was like, wasn't the, was it the Hawkeye that had like the sprayer for the cool, the water sprayer, sprayer from the factory changing the balance of the center diff front to rear? Yeah. Like the vortex generator in the back auxiliary lights. It had all the buttons. It had all the things like, oh, so I'm gonna bring my last one. All right. My last one, I will start by saying that it's outside of everything we've been talking about. And that is, it is a. Mark two Volkswagen GTI 16 valve, specifically 1989 to 1991. Right. 92. Okay. Here's why this just goes for the bang for the buck thing. Right. It is under 2000 pounds in race set. That means with a full cage, you're under 2000 pounds. 16 valve engine is about 135 horse stock. It is a really, really well proven recipe. They raced them. I mean, there was like a GTI cup in America. There is GTI cups all over the world. And it is just a really fun, simple car to drive. I prefer the Mark one as a driver, but the Mark two is just a better chassis. Like it's just, it's a little bit more adorable. If you crash a Mark one, like the, the front, the subframe is integral to the chassis. So like you have a bad off and you might write off your check. You might not write off the whole car. Like the mark two has like it shares parts with the mark three. If later on you want to swap in an engine, there is a huge list of Lego parts that fit as well as brakes. You can do junkyard upgrades to that car. Like you literally that car, you can keep running because Volkswagen basically built parts that fit into that all the way until now, right? The EG of your world. Yeah. And it's, and it has, I want to say this, it was the Miata before the Miata. Like that and the CRX were two cars that people didn't take seriously in the world of racing and then would get shown up by one on track. Right. Like those are the cars like runoffs, like SCCA runoff. Like that was a car that did really well. Right. Like you go back and you look like, you know, was it David Walens from, you know, grassroots sports like he owned one, like Perch Rota owned one. It is one of those cars that all the people who wrote about racing when we were younger all had one. And I've driven one on track. I've owned one as a personal car. They're great. Like it's really simple and they're very, very, very easy to work on it. Comparatively to a lot of the newer stuff. There's no electronics. That's like it's basically it's a electric controlled mechanical CIS injection. Which like, I don't love the CIS part. It's definitely, it's definitely a thumbs down moment. But if you can keep it working, it's, it's kind of fine. It's like Motronic CIS. It's, it's whatever. But that for me, I think is like, it's outside of what we're talking about in terms of all these other ones, I think show up and you can kind of buy them. And they're like ready. Sure. Right. This might take a little bit more of a week to get it going. But shit, I bought a car. I bought a Mark one in New York and then went directly to Lime Rock with it. And all I did was put our triple eights on it, which was really dumb. It almost rolled the car. A little too sticky. A little too sticky. Right. Your suspension's not sticky enough to like slide. I was almost like a focused guy who rolls at the auto at the auto. Oh my God. Yeah. Classic. Chris, you had a line in the group chat last night. I don't remember what I said. He said, he said, I have the data. Only six Volkswagen's have been raised. He's like, I have the data of over 10 years of cars on track in grid life. Every event, every year, every month, hundreds of cars. Six Volkswagen's. And my guess is they probably all my guess is in recently, they probably mark seven, seven, seven, seven and a half. Great car. Great car. The problem is, is the reason it's low. The reason I didn't bring it to the list is I think when you look at the German front wheel drive offerings, it's really good. Yeah. I would probably pick it over like a mini, right? You know, the mini is also really good and probably a box of car. All day, every day, pick it over a mini. But we've had minis on the track too. Yeah. And I think like that. I think it's a great one, but I know that it's a hard fight to put that up against the Civic Si, right? Yeah. I for, for what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Not saying that that like of all of the modern Volkswagen's, everyone I talk to, they're like, yeah, seven, seven and a half. I've also never driven on track, so it's hard for me to speak. Yeah. What I'm saying though is like, for the pure fun factor, I, this is why we like the fit. The fit is trying to be. That's exactly it. Yeah. And trying to emulate. It's a Honda fit with a different king. A CRX or an original golf. It's an underdog story. It's an underdog story. One, everyone will root for you. You can actually be the slowest person there and still get high fives. It's an underdog story. It's an understory. But there's also just a rawness. Like that car just has a night like for a front wheel drive car, it has really good connection to steering. You can feel everything in it really well. You probably could build the whole car for 15 grand. Although 16 valves are getting a bit more expensive. It's probably how much are they? Like there's one for sale right now. For seven grand in a good color. So like that's like, if you found a bad like a black or something less people are excited about, you could probably pick one up for what's a good color. Montana green. Oh yeah. That's a good one. Great. That is a good one. So I look, I look, I'm obviously biased to my Volkswagen's, you're biased to your Hondas. There can be arguments made both directions. But I just, we don't have a single car in this list. That's really even 90s or 80s. And I just think that there is, and I know there's a reason for it. Yeah, there is a reason for it. There is a reason for it. But like you, I don't know. I just, for me, just as a pleasure side, it's like, if I was to pick between a fit and the GT and like a GTI, I would probably choose the GTI because I enjoy suffering. I realize that the fit would be such an easier ride. But like I think from a smile level, like there is just something fun and about that. Like for you, would you pick that Arojondo? Well, I'm like, I like no too much. Right. Like I think about safety and I think about like, you know, even with my EF, like I'm a CRX guy, right? You know, I think about my CRX, I think about a C5 Corvette. I think about us sharing the track. I think about the modern era of tracking. I think about, you know, new Supras and big cars and tiny cars. Just how fast everything's gotten from tire tech alone. Yeah. Like so that's probably like a bias that I shouldn't present, you know, because like I like my. No, like my yeah, my CRX, it's like, you know, like, shit, I don't want to get hit by somebody else on this track. You know, not because I'm worried about getting hit on track, but because of like how far vehicles have come and who you're sharing the space at this point. Right. So it's like, if I'm looking at Civics, right, like I am an EF, you know, I am an EF kid, like through and through, you know. You know, you could probably for 15 grand, you could probably find an EG, you know, you could probably find, you know, an EK, you know, so like that's, that's, that's, that's why like some of the things that I really love and gravitate towards, like, didn't make the list because I'm thinking about this moment in time, which sucks. Right. But it's like, it's like, kind of like, yeah, we're vintage racers. I know, isn't that weird? Yeah, that's what's going to happen. We're vintage racers. We're like the guys who are like taking out like their old E-types or whatever. We're vintage racers. They are. So yeah. I'm a mid-range racer. Yeah. All right. I mean, but that's, so like that, you know, that, that, that GTI that you're presenting is like, it's, it's vintage. That's a vintage class. So, but I would, I would choose like, I would probably choose that car over the fit. You know, like it with all that stuff removed, right? With everything that I just said from a practicality, with everything that you're thinking about for this moment in time, you know, that would be a much, a much. All right. Well, yeah. Unfortunately for you guys, because I'm at the end and a lot of my choices and pick there's not that much, you only get to choose between the three because it's either Fiesta ST, GD, WRX, or the 1990 Mark II. I feel like there's some kind of a tactics that you have. I think the Fiesta goes on the list. Yes. Because it's been brought up so many times. Right. Like it's a, it's like forgotten about. It's like, let's repeat for the, for everybody. So we've got, we have the fit. Yep. We have the twins. Yep. We have the C five and the E 46. So we're actually now pretty stacked rear wheel drive. Yeah. Right. And then we just moved forward the Fiesta ST. So it's another front wheel drive car. So. So now we're, we're WRX versus. Versus the vintage racer. You don't even have to ask me. And I'm not just saying that to go against you as much as I enjoy that. I would move, I would move the WRX forward, not, not to, not to, to crush your, crush your hopes and dreams. I get it. You know, but I think it's, it's a different, it's a different era for the moment. Right. Like it's, it's vintage, you know, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it like somebody asked me, Hey, I want to get a track car. I wouldn't be like, Oh, you really need to find like a, you need to find a 1990, you know, EF hatch because it like had the updated. What I did it. Right. Like that wouldn't, that wouldn't be what I would say. You know, so with that being said, you know, the WRX, because one, it versus, it, it, it brings a diversity to the list because there's a lot of fans. All wheel drive, you know. And once you fix a few suspension things on it, it's great. The car is great. It's great. And that's, that's got a wide support. Crazy aftermarket. Yeah. Crazy aftermarket. And the biggest. And I would also argue that the GD also has a recipe. Like so many guys have raced it both on. Yeah. Like the, a very basic level to full blown time attack, like crazy, you know, Aaron, when you think about a lot of the cars we looked at and dreamed about in Super Street in the early days were like time attack STIs. Yep. The Jonado one. Bunch of camber up front, big old sway bar in the rear. Like you could get it to do some stuff. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. Okay. So our list as we move into the blind spot right now is not a Volkswagen golf, I'll just double check. I'm just double checking. $16,000 off the list. Almost. Sorry, dog. I tried to fit it in. I tried to fit it in. I get your point. I get your point. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll have to do a vintage. Yeah. What, what we call Neo vintage. Yeah. So it's like the Neo vintage track car list. That could be a really fun one. Cars built from like 75 to 95. Yeah. I mean, we open up, open up a grassroots motorsports from, you know, nine, nine, 19, you know, or, or 1999. Yeah. And you'll see all these cars. Cause these were all, this is what they were racing. Those are the cars. The original standard. Which is one of the reasons why it's on the list for me, because it has been on my list and I have researched it since 1996. Right. Right. Right. Since that era, I have researched racing. This car. It's like, there is a wealth of knowledge right here in my mind. Right. You were rattling. You were rattling. You know, I was like, yeah, yeah. That's it. I was like about to start like really lit. And I was like, I'm not going to go. I'm like, see both of you leaving. You were both disassociating for the conversation. I was like, I was like, step one. I was going to start talking spring rates. And I'm like, all right, I'm out. Layer two, layer three. And I was like, oh, is he going to step in a layer four? Is it going that deep? Yeah, I told Nick, I was like, all right, I was like, the hill I'm dying on today is a Mark two, GTI, 16 valve, but yeah, all right, all right. So here's our list. We have C five Corvette, we have Honda fit. I just love saying those back to back. And then we have a FRS slash BRZ, aka the twins. We have the GD WRX, which spans the 2002 to 2007 span. And then we have the Fiesta ST. And last but not least, we have E 46, E 46, 330, which is important because you can get some pretty, you can get some Bonzo ones. Pretty Bonzo E 46 is out there. So it's a good looking track day. So that's a good. Exactly. That's like that. Isn't that a good looking track day? Great. Try to think about the. We all know the GD is going home on a triple A flatbed, but it's still a flat day. That's lapping everybody. No, it's a good looking track day. That's a good. That's a good. That's a good looking intermediate session. I think so. Like that's decent. So now, now we break out the blind spots. So the folks on Patreon have put together their list of things, of things that we tend to miss. Um, and I've actually found this to be super useful. By the way, if you don't belong to the Patreon, go join you. If you, if this like two and a half hour or the other three hour shows is not enough, which all of you are complaining, we should do a five hour show. You just get more on the Patreon, but you also get to be involved in the background of making shows like this. Okay. Um, Jackson B says vintage racing stuff. He's like E 21s, Dotson, Celica's rabbits. We just had that conversation. Yeah. And there is one answer for all of those that crushes them all. He said, when he said this, I mean, this is like, I should add him as a friend somewhere. He said something you can throw a Weber or two on for that nasty 100 horsepower at the crank. Hell yeah. This man has been reading my diary. This is a scot-o fan through and through. There's one answer for that. Yeah. And it crushes everyone else. Lotus Alon. By the way, by the way, Jared, AKA, uh, Chapel, uh, we talked about earlier, uh, we talked about on the Patreon special, uh, he's like 15,000. Geez, that's not a budget. Six thousands of budget. And you know what? I agree. Originally I was going to put the number really low, but I do think it starts to kind of be this like it's slightly unrealistic or you end up only being, you're like, yeah, I want a golf 16. Because like you can't, but you're either buying, well, no, you start getting into the like, can you search and find a car that cheap? Yeah. Like I'm sure I could find a salvaged crash BRZ that I could build back up to make a track car. You could definitely find everything we've said on this list. For example, RC five Corvette, we bought for five grand. Yeah. So that car is possible. That was kind of a unicorn deal. Yeah. But I, I so hate when you watch YouTubers and they're like budget build. I bought a 9-11 off my friend for six grand. And you're like, yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. We bought, uh, the Knucklebusters M3. I bought for two grand E36. Like you can't buy that anymore. That's gone. So it's like, it's really, it was worked. Yeah. It's really the window of that. I think it was a good price range because it like gets you to the point where you're like considering things that you can't get. Yeah. And then you can, you can really easily come in under with, with everything on our list, you know? So, so then you talk about budget, you still got to get to the track. Still got to pay for that stuff. So we got it. We got a wild card here. So once it's Lexus IS 250. Oh. Hmm. So that was, that was the manual transmission option, right? You could get the manual in the 250. I think you could get manual, but that's the thing is that they're kind of tough to find. Yeah. So that seems like a hunt. I don't necessarily disagree that that would be. And it's on the heavier side. Yeah. Like it's on the heavier side. Yeah. If you're, if you're looking at that, like just get a Z same experience. Just get a Z. Yeah. Yeah. On the heavier side. There's a lot of people in here saying Z C four Corvette's Mark for golf one eight turbos. Not a C four. Yeah. C four is like a completely different suspension. Like C five C six is like the Corvette's made for. If you want to spend most of your life on the internet learning how cross fire injection works, get a C four. I forgot about that. I had to learn how to do that just to help Kyle fix his car. Yeah. Um, let's see what else. Uh, we obviously have our Europeans bringing in things like the reno, like McGain, McGon, Cleo, things like that. Obviously not great cars. Other people are bringing up the Boxster. We talked about that. Um, someone here said that the Toyota Echo or the JDM vits first gen. I don't know much about that car, but they wrote a lot about this and it actually sounds pretty exciting. Yeah. That's because it's a fit size. It's a fit size vehicle here. So yeah. That's like, that's like the whole B spec. There's a, there's a spreadsheet, um, that, uh, is put together that tells you every single car that we know of that fits into the Sunday cup class. Clevesse. Oh, nice. Yeah. So, um, like where, where, where it fits and it's a, it's a ton of cars. Yeah. I got another, someone brought up the RX eight, which the RX eight is the perfect example for me of like an amazing car. It just needs a different engine. Yeah. Like that, that falls into the nine 44 or completely different gearing. The RX eight has been rising in conversation like throughout my worlds. You know, have you driven one? No, they are fantastic. Are we, we got into this. We got into like drivers cars side. Yeah. I feel like they look like, like a, like a botch circumcision, but like, that's fine. It's like, it's weird. There's like some foreskin. It's locked on. It's just on one side. It's like extra flaps. Like, I don't know. It just looks like something went wrong there. Yeah. Um, that being said, I still, like, I, they're just, they're really, really fun to drive. Like, yeah. Great chassis. It just, it's just the reliability of the Renes' engine is really problematic. Yeah. They're in the range cost wise. Oh, easily, easily. Um, this is a huge blind spot. I questioned putting it on my list and I just couldn't, but like it was S one 97 Mustangs. Yeah. I looked at those. I just have, I have done a lot of track time in those cars and I never liked them. I just didn't, I get that they can be quick. I just didn't enjoy them driving. I remember doing a road trip with Vaughn and we went and did like some track stuff. And I just kept asking him, I'm like, do you really like how this car drives? And he was like, this is one of the best sports cars. I'm like, no, it's not. Like I drive sports cars for a living and write about them. Like I do not enjoy driving this car. The fit and finish and like how the interior feels is like if Fisher Price tried to make an actual car. But I'm telling you, people are going to go super hard in the comments because there's an entire group of people who track those. Totally. You see a lot of them on your side or is it kind of a different demo? It's no, there's, we've got Mustangs, but like if the, if the C five exists on this list, why do you need the Mustang? Good point. Exactly. I agree. I agree. You don't, because if you want the big V power, they check the same box and like the C five is clearly a better choice. You would get a Mustang and you would track a Mustang because you're a four guy. Exactly. Like you, you have to make that do, or you like Mustangs, you know, like otherwise C five wins that conversation. Hands down. Easily. Um, another one, uh, I mentioned this quickly before, but BMW Z three, preferably the 3.0, I think that is like a quick, like that is another Miata type of vehicle. I had that almost on my list, but it's also a vehicle I barely fit in. Yeah. Roadsters don't make it to my, yeah, my thing. They're not really in your realm. Outside the space. Yeah. I mean, like, uh, I mean, they, they certainly are sports cars. I just like, you lose a lot of practicality too. Shev Garfield says the Mark two GTI golf. And then he says, yes, I'm biased. And then you realize his avatar is a Mark two GTI race car. Comment how much Scott opaid you. Um, many, we talked about that. Um, here's one that, um, I thought was really interesting and it made me go do a marketplace hunt last night and then do some research, but it said 190 E and it's base, it says incredible suspension, boring engine. And it's like, I only really know the 190 E is the causey version. Right. It's just like the two, three variant. But I, you know, I was like, I wonder if, and then I like started reading and a lot of people say that the 190 is like such an amazing, like just like chassis car, but just doesn't have a good engine. Obviously that doesn't fit into this group, but I found people who do two J swaps for them. And then I just was like that. Like I lost like a good hour and a half last night researching cause I was like, man, a 190 with a, with a J. Hmm. That could, that could be pretty good. Um, one of the best sounding engines. Just let's see what else we got here. Uh, a lot of Hondas are on this list. Right. I'm so glad. There's a lot of vintage. My goblin list has not been cracked. There's a lot of, a lot of Hondas are on here. F C FB arc seven. I think that fits into what we're saying. The Neo, that's our new vintage kind of class. Um, this, someone brought this up and I went and looked at it cause I actually thought, man, this actually might not be a bad competitor and something I don't think anyone's talked about is the Veloster N. Sure. Because that, and it's, but it's on the cusp. Yeah. Yeah. It's on the cusp like, yeah, you can find one for 15, but they're not going to be a great example. They're not, they're not there yet. And if you're spending that much, you might as well. They're not there yet, but like, that's actually like really fun car, really fun car. We spent some time in them and it's a very, very like nice handling car, good power. That's going to be one of those brands that in 10 years from now, you'll see a lot of like Elantra ends and Veloster is on track because they probably won't keep their resale value. Absolutely. You'll be able to go. And somebody will make them really cool. Like a group of guys will make them awesome. And then you see the resurgence. All right. So, oh, and here's another one, which like a kind of love, uh, John Bowser, Matthews says the crown Vic. So crown, crown Vic. Oh my God. Crown Vic has like kind of the same type of aura as a fit. Right. So like, they kind of fit, they kind of fit into the same category of like track day clown car a little bit, you know, I mean, I've spent a good amount of time racing crown Vicks as well. And they're fucking great. Yeah. They're really fun. Yeah. We were just talking about that last time, the taxi Derby, the tax derby obviously cletus is done three of the cletus races. And like, I got to race Bristol motor speedway in one and a it's terrifying. But B, like you really have to be good. Like it teaches you like a lot of stuff. It's a big, heavy, boaty car. You have to be very deliberate and very smooth with your inputs. And you can learn a lot from that. I just want to bring up a comment that, uh, that was added about the WRX. And I kind of forgot about this for other regions. Uh, fantastic ice racing car. Great. And if you live in the North, there is really easy access to ice racing. And like we talked about this before, having a track car that can blend into other stuff or even things that could be fun to go do an autocross with like C time, C time, that does actually give the WRX. Well, because none of the other cars we talked about are that much fun. No, yeah. Ice racing. Yeah. And there are a few things that are more fun than ice racing. I know. It's so good. It's really good. Yeah. Um, all right. Other than that, there's really not much other stuff on the, I feel like we've mentioned, oh, yeah, this is the other one that was a blind spot. Uh, this just is like, this car is a blind spot. Full stop. Yeah. Like I just never think about this car ever. The Toyota MR2. It was on my list and then off my list and then back on my list. Yeah. Again, small car. Yeah. I don't really, I got a chance to drive, but when I was doing research into this, it definitely shows up on lists. Yeah. Yes. I think sport compact car back in the day, they tried to make it like even close to a stock Elise and they couldn't. Yeah. But very cool looking and it might be really fun. I've never driven one. Kind of looks like a bar of soap. You know, yeah. Well, that's what people said. They were like, it's basically an Elise because it's the same engine. And then I read like a review and it said something to the effect of like, it's got all the things about the Elise, except for the things that make the Elise great. Right. I was like, okay. There is a guy here locally that in SoCal drivers club, he has one that's built, looks sick, looks like an absolute blast. And it's like, yeah, makes you kind of think. Yeah. Okay. So here's the part of the game where we get to make a decision of whether or not anything on the list of the blind sides moves forward or by, and when I say that, it has to take the place of something else. And I want to bring this up because this is a blind side that would normally be the car, which is the Miata MX five was on none of our lists. And for the audience, we had a pre-production conversation about putting this all together. It's on Patreon. And originally we were going to say top five, uh, track day cars that are not the Miata, because we all thought that the argument was that the Miata would be in first place. Uh, the Miata thought on my list, I'm six foot eight is the dumbest car for me to drive also not on Ron's list. Cause I think you also have a hate issue in the car. Not even that. You just think it looks like perfectly still wouldn't pick it just and it wasn't on your list just cause it doesn't need to be. It's already on enough lists. And all right. Right. So like it. And I wouldn't, I had a NA Miata, you know, like, uh, that for a little bit, you know, like if I was going to buy one, I'd probably buy an NB, um, you know, and, but I wouldn't. Yeah. So we had Shark Heart, which was fantastic, but it was amazing, but it also had a supercharger on it. Yeah. Like which made it was not as much fun without what made Shark Heart awesome. When we saw the body, we removed everything that looked like a Miata from it. This is sick. Yeah. The number one way to make the Miata goal was to make it not look like a Miata. Yeah. So. All right. So I mean, I just, cause you know that there are people right now listening to this frothing that we are saying that the greatest top five cars does not include, they can froth, does not include. For me, all right. That's fine. We're moving forward. Uh, well, wait, you had an argument for the eighth gen Civic SI. Yeah. The eighth gen Civic. So you think the eighth gen deserves a swap out and I will say 100%. I will say looking through the list of, uh, everybody who was in the blind spot, it was constantly repeated. It was like, it was on almost everybody's list. So I think, uh, to not have a Civic on the list, you know, uh, it's a little crazy. It's crazy. It's a little crazy. You think if you had to choose between the Civic and the Fit, which one would you choose? See, this is tough, right? So like I would choose the Fit because it's the spiritual successor to my experience, you know, and, um, it's the cheapest to operate. However, you know, if you want to. Also, I don't believe I'm saying this out loud. It oddly looks cooler. Oh, well, yeah. Because the eighth gen is just an interesting car. Like you said, it's just a small Honda Odyssey. Yeah. It's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, um, you know, the Civic is, is, is flexible, right? Like you can, you can wheel the wheel it, you know, the, it's got the K motor, right? Like you can really grow into it. Yeah. You know, like it's, are you a big K motor fan as a Honda guy? Um, I don't have any cars that have a K motor. I feel like it's the LS of Honda engines and I don't say that like. It's like the LS of everything. Yeah. But it's like, it's the LS of small motors, but it just doesn't sound good to me, which is a huge part of the experience. Yeah. I've, um, I'm a B series. Yeah. Oh, full support. Yeah. So, so yeah, like the CRX I'm building is B series, you know, so, and that's my build, right? And I'm taking the B series that came that I, that I had in my track car and doing like a full, if I was going to do it again. Right. In 2002, I'd do it like this. And that's my final boss for, so you're making the argument that eighth gen should be on the list, but instead of what? Instead of the Fiesta, a hundred percent. Like, so the Fiesta is unfortunately, by the way, I do want to point out, so the Fiesta is the bridesmaid, like always the bridesmaid, it has been invited, it has been invited to each of our lists, but it doesn't get to come to the honeymoon. It was a, it was a sympathy vote, you know, like even on my list, I was thinking about it and I was like, focus ST, Fiesta ST, I was like, I like smaller stuff. Yeah. Fiesta. Fiesta ST is a way better car. Way better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like not even close. So it was, it was a, yeah, it was a sympathy vote, you know, from the rip. Um, and it sounds like it might have been a sympathy vote across the board. I think it's, I think it actually, in my mind, I thought it was going to be a blind spot for everybody. So I was surprised to hear you say it, less surprised for you to say it. We obviously have rally backgrounds, so it's a car that has value there, but it was just kind of like a fun, whippable car, really good price. And not a Honda. So that's why I put it on my list, cause I like people forgot about it. Totally. I mean, look, if I had, like, let's just play the game. So SI, SI or ST. SI, 100%. SI. Yeah. But grudgingly, because I would rather have the RSX, but still, between those two, yes. The, the SI and the RSX are similar. Motor, motor, motor trends car of the year. If you had to choose between the SI and the RSX, what would it be for you? SI. Yeah. Because like the RSX, like aesthetically, you know, like, I think the RSX is a better looking car. Way better looking car. I mean, the SI to his point, it looked, you know what the SI looks like is you took a photo of the Odyssey and you were in Photoshop and you grabbed the wrong thing and you just like squashed it. That's kind of what it looks like. Like you just reshaled it by mistake. Just because of the angles and the like. Headlights. Yeah. The headlights and the slope of the hood and the front bumper. Yeah. I remember when that car came out looking at it and being like, how the mighty have fallen. Yeah. Like, it was a little bit of a space ship. Yeah. Right. It's just bored. Do we want to then have the argument of RSX or SI? You know my answer. I think, I think amongst the Honda community, there's, there's similar, right? So like, you know, eighth gen, it's like, that's the, that's the best of what we can, you know, what you can get in that price range. But like you can't lose. So here's the thing. I, if I had to vote body panels, you guys are on the two sides, replaceable parts, yeah, bits and pieces, odds and ends. The RSX is going to be more expensive. I never see our taxes on the road. Yeah. Much, much more difficult, you know, in that regard and, and like the, you're going to have to hunt for one. So right now it's a tiebreaker. You guys are both on the side. I obviously don't have much experience in either. I'm going to take his, his argument. We'll live in a moderator world here. His argument for the panels and that it was ubiquitous in the list on Patreon. So we'll move to SI. Okay. So this gives us our final list, right? I have it here. So I don't make any mistakes. We have going into the final round, the ultimate rumble, the Corvette C5, the E46 330 I, the twins, AKA the FRS BRZ, the Honda Fit second gen, the Subaru WRX GD and the eighth gen Civic SI, which just bumped out the Fiesta ST. Yep. All right. You guys ready to have that conversation? Good lobby. Yeah. Good lobby. I like it. We're going to take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll order these bad boys. Rank them. It's the snack intermission brought to you by Viper Industrial. Today we have something of substance because our boy Chris said he's actually hungry today. We have Bobo's PB and J grape. You know how you have like those friends who like you've just done like really crazy, like illicit stuff with like, you know, donkey shows in Mexico. That's what, that's what Ron is to me, but in the snack world. In the food game. Yeah. In the food game. Like we have eaten some very questionable things. I've seen this man make combinations that would make a non-blush. The look of this is like a solid two out of 10. This is pretty, this is pretty dense. It's dense. It is dense. It is dense. So, yeah. I will say this though. It's one of those snacks that the more you chew, the better it gets. I wish it went harder on the J than the PB. You want more filling. Yeah. You want like a little bit more in it. Absolutely. No, not bad though. Hit it with a score. You start out of 10. Not a 10. It's a seven. Seven. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I'm going to hit it with like a five. Yeah. I'm there on a five too. Man, now that I like read the family story, I want to give them like at least a 6.5. You know what I mean? I'll bump it up to a 5.5. Yeah, okay. It's a cliff bar for eight year olds. I actually like, I haven't eaten today. So like it's good from a substance side. It just doesn't, it just, it doesn't really check the snack part. Sure. Yeah. So. Well, since you enjoyed it so much, you get the extra one. You can save that for later. Anyway, back to the show. All right, the time has come. We got to rank them. So, first up is something's got to die. We got six things on the list. There can only be five. So, what is your, I'm going to start this. You start first. What would you kill? Okay. Might be controversial. Yep. I will kill off the twins. Off of this list, I don't see a reason for them to be on if you have access to the 330i and the C5 only because the first gen, the limitations on the first gen. If this was the second gen, like it would beat out the E46 to me. But as we sit right now, I think you would have a lot more fun. You would have like an equally cool, if not cooler looking car in the E46 and a C5 is not leaving. So, like why have that much of the kind of the same thing? You know. Hmm. What would you kill? You get to kill anything on the list. Probably kill the WRX. You'd kill the WRX. Okay. Yeah. Why? Complexity. Once again, you know, yeah, just because if we're talking about track day things, right? You track a WRX because you love WRXs. Yeah. You know, you don't necessarily get a WRX because you really want to track. Mm hmm. That's fair. So. I'd probably, I'd kill the SI because and having, I mean, I've driven the fit, but I haven't, and I have driven the SI too because I probably was on the press launch, but I don't need to really stand out to him. I might not have had like a full track day with either of them. But from you explaining the two, if I had to pick between the two, I would go fit and I just feel like killing off an all wheel drive car on a track. I don't know. I just feel like, like they're too similar. Like, I, like you would never own either. Do you understand? Like if you're looking at this list and you're saying one of these cars might speak to me, I would say that the E46 and the C5 are completely different cars. Right. It's a real drive sedan. Even if it's a two door, it's a sedan base versus a proper sports car format. Transaxle. Totally. The, you know, the, I guess you would say the BRZ sort of also like sports car, but like way smaller, definitely more of a momentum car. It's pretty much a roadster with a roof. Yeah. Right. Lives into, you know, smaller footprint. Again, I like all wheel drive cars. That Subaru does that for me. To me, the two that feel like they're in competition is like the fit to me seems like a lighter, more chuckable version of the SI, but you could correct me because you have way more experience in them. If you were, if you were presented with the two as like a track day car, the novelty of the fit and the practicality, like if you spread sheeted it, there's no way you'd choose the fit over the SI, right? Factory LSD, you know, K motor, one of the, one of the best motors of our era. Huge aftermarket. Huge aftermarket, you know. I don't know if I'd say best one of the era, but keep going. Okay. One of the most popular motors of our era. That is the true. That is the true. That is the true. So a good version of that, you know, of that motor, right? So, you know, and, and intended to be a sporty version of the, you know, economy car that it's based on. It arguably is a performance variant. There is a fit sport, but that's just a lip and a spoiler. Right? So it's like, yeah, there's nothing. Now, like a driving experience wise, the fit, I enjoy more because it's feels like an EF to me, right? That's a tough, that's a tough thing, right? And that's what I think attracts me to it, because to me, before we were talking about like, you know, the spiritual successor, the fit to me feels closest to the Mark II Golf 16 valve that you wouldn't let me put on the list. So like I would protect the fit in that fight. Because I think that's what that's the experience. If I want to take a front wheel drive car out on track, I want to go enjoy it being really lightweight and chuckable. I'm not trying to do C five things in it. You know what I'm saying? Like I think at a certain point, like people try to push front wheel drive cars too far. It's like, just get a different. Civic is still lightweight and chuckable. Yeah. I would say the fit has to stay because it is the most truly budget out of all of the ones on the list. Truly budget. Yeah. And I think it has running it in the long term. I also think it has way more of a future. I think that there's this world where like, you go back and listen to this podcast five years from now, and a bunch of these cars don't appear on the list anymore, but the fit kind of still does. If it might stay. Because I think other things may work. Also, there's no new cars that are great. So it's probably just BRC's and fits. It's just a list. It's the same. If you're thinking about that, I would say that like the civic, the civic would would remain on that list because the fit doesn't exist anymore. Right. And only made it three gens. And now it's done. Now it's an HRV. Yeah. All right. So we, we got to kill something. So all three of us have said something different. So you said kill the twins. I still think it's the twins and the. You said kill the GD. I said kill the SI. Yeah. Does anyone feel closer to someone else's choice here? We can get into vote. I'll say one more thing about the twins is that I think you're capped on progression very quickly. Because of that engine. Without having to do a swap. Without having to turbo it or do a swap or just spending a lot of money on it. Interesting. Yeah. As far as front wheel drive cars, we have the, we have the fit and we've got the SI. Yeah. Kind of both sides of the spectrum. Yeah. In my opinion. I mean, they're so similar. Yeah. Honestly. Okay. So here, if you had to choose between. If I had to kill the Subaru or kill the SI, what would you do? I'd kill the, I'd kill the SI. Because the fit gets you a lot of the same type of things. The Subaru, very regional of course, but the second it rains on track, you're smoking everybody, right? Usability anywhere where it does have a lot of winter time, way more usable, right? It's a great daily, great daily. By the way, I did do one lab of America and an STI. And it's a, it's when it rains, that you're the number one car out there. Like having a, having a, just for the representing diversity of preference too, right? That's all drivetrains if that remains. Yeah. Right. So I do, I do think, I mean, I already made the argument of like Honda's off, have this similar soul, right? Like in regards to the way that they feel. So you're still getting it one way or another. You're still getting it, right? You know, so. And that's not an easy decision. Like I, it feels like a shame that like an SI doesn't make a list. Yeah. Yeah. Like. Okay. So let's talk about his. So, or let's do, you do the two of us, would you kill the twins or would you kill the WRX? That's a tough one too. Like I, um, I think that the twins are going to be like very pervasive in the culture for, for tracking, you know, like moving forward. I think they're going to be a absolutely dominant chassis 10 years from now. So like that's. And I don't disagree with that. I just think in our current rule set with everything else presented, that's where we are today. The second that the most recent gen car becomes available sub 15 K forget it. So, okay. So you would kill the, you wouldn't kill the twins. No, I don't actually kill the SI. I don't think. Yeah. In that conversation, I think I would, I don't think. Ew. Okay. So here, so in that math, in that math between this is kind of gets out of this math, it makes perfect sense, but you want to kill the WRX, you want to kill the twins. Yeah. And I would probably argue to keep. I think I'd argue to keep the twins. Because even though like, I mean, I just think that that, and it was on my list to begin with as well. Um, I think for the same reason as he does, it's the last of a generation of analog cars and they're still making them right now. Like realize the gen two car, the parts are interchangeable. So it's like you have a car that is still, you could still go buy new parts for at a dealership and that may continue for another couple of years. LTC car running gen two motor, gen one chassis doing very well. And I will say they do look really cool. And again, like, I guess I do have to agree that the twins will make you a better driver than a GD would. I killed the SI once when we did my list in the first place because the twins and the twins in the fit went forward. Yeah. So true. True. So in that conversation, no one saved the SI. So I think we, so it now becomes. So we lose the SI. Do you and I both agree of all the cars to lose? We lose the SI. No, I think. I mean, I've been arguing for the intention of the SI, right? Like the reality is like I'm a Honda guy and I haven't, I haven't, it hasn't been in my actual consideration for a very long time because, you know, my, my heart kind of like stayed around, you know, the fourth gen, fifth gen, sixth gen era. Okay. You know, so. So if we can't, we can't figure this out through, through this weird math I tried to put together. Cause this doesn't work in a traditional voting cause it's the sixth place. Um, let's look at this and say what car is sixth place. If we just did one out of six, what car is the bottom of the list from the group? What would you, what would you put? Well, like if you were to do a ranking of this current ranking, where would you, what would be last place for you? Cause I mean, that's basically what the car you cut is. I mean, same answer. The twins. The twins. Okay. So twins is at the bottom for you. At the bottom. Yeah. But again, like I've spent so much time with the WRX and I know how fun it is in any other conditions, like outside of the track too. I know that doesn't count towards this conversation, but. This is why you need a gridded notebook. Yeah. This is, this is C. This is why you need. A phone can't do this. Yeah. All right. Still not drawing straight lines, but still. So for me, I have the SI at the bottom and you have the, uh, you have the WRX at the bottom. Yeah. Okay. Um, let's just ask where do we think, let's just, let's look at the opposite of the SI, uh, or not the opposite, but the, the alternative, which is the fit. How hot, where does the fit live on the list? Like, where does it live for you? Somewhere around the middle. Cause it's not, it's not like an absolute must have, but I, I really like it. That it's an entry for almost anybody into having a lot of fun on track. Okay. So let's just say, and I say the same, I think it's like position, it's like position four, three. Right. Where does it live for you? I mean, it's hard, right? Because like I, in some, in some lists, I put the SI really high up at the top, right? But I don't think I'd put the fit at the top. You know, this is, this, this is what I was trying to get you. It's like, I want the fit on the list, but the fit's not number one. No, I like, I'd put, I'd put the SI, like if I was between those two, it's like, you got to, you got to put one of these two and number one, I'd put the SI in number one, you know, uh, just because of the, the practicality of everything that I know about like what tracking is like, right? The fit like gets this, this like kind of fun. It's hero. It's like a underdog hero. It's bordering on novelty though. That shouldn't do that. That shouldn't be like that. That shouldn't be that much fun, right? The SI is like, Again, this is the same reason I, that's why I'm like, it's the modern Miata. But it's like, I think that the Miata is a great car. I think that the fits a great car, but I also think that they get more credit than maybe do because they sort of are, they don't fit the traditional mold of like a race car or a sports car to like the average automotive person. You know, I guess also out of everything on this list, it is the one thing that isn't intended to be a performance car. No, no, I mean, that is very true. Yeah. Can, can put camber in the rear. Whoa. That's crazy. Wow. Solid beam. Wait, really? Yeah. Like it doesn't, yeah. I mean, that's like a, that's like a Mark two 16. Yeah. It's like the way, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can, but it's difficult, right? It's not even getting for it. Pressure's on. I know. Are we about to kill the fit? I mean, that it almost seems like the fit might be swapping the S.I. As we talked through it. Yeah. That at the end of the day, the fit is a really great novelty. It deserves to have been in conversation as long as it put up a great fight. It put up a great fight. But if you're really going at it and you're saying you have money to go build one track car and you're not going to put it that way. It's different. It's different if you were going to go race in like the spec fit series. Cause then there's a reason to go, but if you're just going to your local track and you're about to get smoked by GT three RS is going around, would you rather be in a fit or would you rather be in the S.I. And I asked you, I don't have the experience. No, you'd be in the S.I. Yeah. Right. So like you're coming, you're coming to the, you know, like in the, in the fit, right? The unique kind of need to be with your peers too. You know, I'm like, that's what makes it really fun as well. Right. That's a great point. You're not driving it in a spec series. And maybe this is where that could all of a sudden be not fun. Right. This is where a regular track day, you're not going to have a bunch of other fits and you'll have any one of these. Right. And this is where like, I think the romantic idea of the fit starts to fade. Yeah. You show up to a track day and there are no other fits. It's still a really great choice. Yes. Yeah. Which is, it's made it to the final round and it's a sub 10 K King. It's still a really, really great choice. Yeah. Yeah. But if you, Do you have a problem putting it in last place? No. And killing it. Do you have a problem putting it in last place and killing it? If the SI remains, I mean, my heart's breaking for both. I know. You know, like. If you were to choose between the fit and the twins on the final list, would you keep the fit above the twins? Oh. Right. Okay. I think we're going to make it official. Yeah. The fit has been removed and struck from the list. Again, very impressive fight for what it is. It also went from you and I both are like, yeah, it's in third place, third or fourth to no, it's out. You never know what these things are. You have the conversation and you got to think through the piece. It's super important to put it in context. All right. So we now have, we now have come down, we've knocked out the fit or in our top five or what's in fifth place. What is the thing that would have also gotten knocked out? It seems like the twins was on your list. WRX. WRX was on your list. Yeah, still. So I think now it's just a conversation of WRX or twin. That's a really hard one because it depends on where you are, but I think for most of the country, you would put the GD last. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys outvote me. I would put the GD above the twins, but that's only. It pains me. It pains me because I love the GD. I just think it's an all around more fun car. It is. It's more fun stoplight to stoplight. Yeah. It's more fun. Like it, like, but again, the twins also really fun car. They're both really good. Again, like in the twins, if you start out in those and then you get money or you get a better car, a bigger car, you're going to be more. I will say one thing though, just from a track day side, it's way easier to get all your shit in a GD to the track. That's true. You can fit a spare set of wheels in the back. You can fit all you have a trunk space for toolbox, jack, all of that. There's very little room. I think of the twins because they're like, they sit in this space that's just below the totality of their potential. You know, you're like, man, this is this is good, not great. Yeah. Because it's good, not great. It's like getting getting a little bit more of a ding than it deserves because like what else checks the boxes that those cars bring to the table? Nothing. Nothing like nothing. Right. So what else? I mean, WRX kind of like sits in its own in its own world. And purely on the fact that you can do twice as many laps stress free in the twins versus the WRX, which we've done. I mean, we have beaten the hell out of that car. But just the fact that they made it, right? That it got made, right? The WRX, like, you know, as it exists, you know, like it has a very strong case. Right. And then prez is just a car. Yeah, it doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. Well, yeah. But, you know, like when it when it, you know, that was the hot version, you know, of the impresa, right? The twins are just like, we're making this. Yeah. You know, and I think that should be commended. And that's the same thing. It's the reason why it made it onto the greatest driver's car list as well. Yeah. Be, well, of a certain era, because like it's one of the only currently made cars that gives you the experience. It's one of the only really good analog sports cars that's affordable that you can buy without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy an analog 9-11. Yeah. So, okay. Uh, all right. But so we all feel good though. The twins are in fourth. Cool with that. We repair that too. Got it. I got to think about where the other thing. The rest of the context. Yeah. The rest of the context. Right. So the rest of the context. So you've got the C five. You have the E 46. I'd put the C five in fourth. Oh, that's going to be a fight. I don't think the C five is number one, but I don't think it's, I don't think it's number four. It can't be four. Oh, I can't be four. Like think about the, think about the appeal, uh, you know, uh, two, right? So like the C five is in consideration with us because we've driven it all, right? Like we've experienced all that stuff. And we're like, okay, you know, and we're of a certain age. We're like, all right, I guess Corvettes, right? Like think about the headspace that you would have been in 15 years ago, you know, and even 10 years ago, you know, and thinking about that car, would you consider it? Even though you, even though you knew what it was capable of. Well, actually, no, 15 years ago, I would have because. So even though I am wearing a heartbeat of America. You're really, you actually are. Shout out to heatwave for the lab. But, um, I was not a Corvette person. I was a German car. I'm still not. Didn't really love Corvettes. I will say it when I was a little kid, I loved the Corvette, but I loved like the Stingray, the original, but like that. And I loved the Corvettes when I was younger. My, my grandfather had one. It really is one of the cars that got me into. I almost bought a C four when I was young. But as I got older, I was very much on the track to like one by a nine, 11. Like that was the car for me. Corvettes kind of fell into this weird world. We all know all the memes and the jokes about Corvette guys. And then I drove the C six and I drove the C six multiple times side by side with nine, 11s. And I would, as a journalist, I would get out and be annoyed that I had to say that the Corvette was a more fun drive, a better drive, or the number one thing I used to say about it was, it was more track ready. Like I would get into a nine, 11 that all of a sudden pushed into a corner felt soft where the Corvette didn't feel soft. And like, I'm talking C six, because I was a generation, I was a journalist, but like C five's similar ask in a lot of ways. We had a C five at Hoonigan that was like a yard car, like super fun. And you look at it now in the world of drifting, there's a reason why it's become the new go to car because it doesn't need an engine swap. It doesn't really need much. No, like it doesn't even really need to be lowered. You do it because you have like, because it makes it look nice with a little more angle. But our yard car had nothing. And it was a ripper. And it was a ripper. It took three gens of the Corvette to convince us. Yeah. Right. Like three good. Yeah. Right. You know, so like, and, and, and yes, now, so now we're looking back on the C five and being like, oh, shit, I overlooked that for that many years. Right. Like, so, you know, so that's where I think like it belongs on the list. But to like, to like go on the top, it like, it just doesn't. Here's the thing I would say, I think that we just start, we don't have to get all the top, but I would say that the E 46 is above the C five. Yes, 100%. I just think that all around. Since day one, it's been cool since day one. And then I was my listeners known this. I'm not a BMW guy. I'm not just for whatever it is. I just don't associate with the brand, but I can't ever deny that they're just great driving. Yeah. It's an ultimate driving machine. Like there's a reason they claim that like they're really good driving cars. There's an amazing aftermarket for it. There's so many people racing them every weekend that if you go out to the track and you have a problem, there's probably someone in the paddock who can help you get a setup straight or whatever, because people have a ton of experience. Plus it's nice to drive to the track in. Interior is great. Yeah. A bit more usable. Yeah. Four doors. You could get the four door. Yeah. So like to me, I would say that that edges out the C five. The other one is, is that the consumables on the C five are a lot more expensive. That is true. Brakes, clutch jobs, like every tires are not cheap. Tires are not cheap. You're running a big tire. Yeah. And a lot of people, if you're getting into a budget race car because you have a long experience of racing cars, then you may be able to drive the C five to its limit. But if you're just getting into it, you're probably not going to have as much fun the C five as you would an SI or something else because like you probably. Not accessible. Well, you're not going to be able to drive it to like its mechanical limit with the size tire it has and what it and I will say from everything I do know about tracking Corvettes is even when you have them set up really well and a lot of stuff in them, they still have a lot of trouble putting power down. So you do have to pedal a lot. Yeah. Versus E 46 like your hammer down all the time. So we're saying we all agree. E 46 is above C five. Yeah. We don't know where it falls. Yes. We at least know that right now it lives above that. Do we think in any world, the twins live above either the C five or the 46? Definitely not above the E 46. Right. Okay. Not above the C five to me. So the only other car now is the Civic. So it's all about where the Civic slots in to figure out this place. So is the Civic better than the Corvette? Yes. This is good. This is where the fight is. No, yeah. No, no, it can't. I I I don't have I don't have enough experience in the Civic per se. But I have enough. I have more experience in a front wheel drive car on track than I probably should. I've driven more of them. I mean, that was always Vinny's joke with Scottos really fast in production. Front wheel drive cars. It's like where I excel. We drive like actual touring cars. I'm like, I don't want to push that. Front wheel drive. I'm a fucking drive this thing on the edge. Yeah. Um, but it's not a C five that but that's just from the experience side. On the argument, SI is probably an easier car to own, have more lap time out there. The SI is the easiest car to own on the whole list. Right. Maybe the WRX, right? Like so, you know, like maybe the WRX. You're saying in terms of ownership, I'm talking about like track service ability. I'm talking about all the whole package. The whole package, right? Because like what's that? I would say the twins and the SI are the two easiest cars on the group. I mean, the SI. The twins are pretty easy. The SI has a real backseat. You can. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's I'm talking about the total. You're talking the whole package. I was talking about the like consumable side of it, the maintenance side of it, like everything that goes in. They're probably pretty similar. You know, I think the SI, right? If I'm, if I'm, you know, thinking about the like, I'm thinking about it from the, the entry point, right? Like I'm, I want to buy, I want to get a track car. It's my car. You know, like what sacrifices am I making? Right. Like what, what am, what am I balancing out? You know, and again, practical, practical view, you know, um, I'm going to go ahead and say, like I'm going to move forward. Pretending that the SI is an RSX for me. Okay. Okay. If it were, I would agree. Yeah. So if it was the RSX, because squint, squint. Yes. Right. Yeah. I'm squint, squint your eyes. I'm putting my safety squints on. Yeah. Put, put, put Vaseline on the lenses. That's right. You know, one of the other factors is, is that like once you do start getting fast, I didn't really think about this until now is like, if you do start getting fast, and you're fast in a vet, okay, that guy's fast. If you're fast in a civic or an RSX, it's like, yo, this dude's a hero. So like this guy's awesome. That's a great conversation. Cause if we right now went to the track and I haven't done a track day in a year and a half, uh, of all these cars, I would probably jump in the twins or the SI to go out and turn laps just because it's been a bit. Sure. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, right. Probably work up back up and want to get into the C five. Yeah. Probably the E 46 is the car I'd be most excited to really, to drive there. But I think like that group. Um, yeah. So there is that, that, that does make a good argument of, you know, if you are more entry level or just mid level or, or, or just old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, um, yeah, just looking for like kind of a more of a balanced weekend, you know, like a little bit, right? Totally. Like, um, because in, in the C five, you will probably also smoke your set of tires in a track day or two, whereas in the, in the pads and in the RSX, SSI, um, you're going to go home and you'll be fine. And then you just go do your next track day again. But you do get to tell your friends that you race Corvettes, which is either good or bad, depending on who you're going to care. I think it's good. I think it's good now, right? Like, but like, I don't know, like coming from, you know, okay, so Corvettes were them when I was tracking, let's flip the other way. I don't, I don't normally love to run right to the end, but like E 46 or, or S I like 46, so, so like, I think we all, I think we all, I think we all agree that the 46 is number one, the 46 is the number one. So we now have to just fill out the middle. Wow. We built the same way. We got to fill out the middle. So, right. At E 46, um, by the way, I like broke every rule of media, which is like, I gave away the end midway. Right now you can just watch the fall off. No one cares about the middle, but it wasn't a climactic in a way. The Corvette fans are going to care about where it falls. Yeah. So like we got that and the Honda fans, which is actually probably a big part of the listening group here. All right. So we have, we have E 46 sitting there. We have at the top, we have the, uh, was it the WRX is at the bottom, right? And then we have the twins above the WRX and then it's, it's a race for second place boys. It's like competing against Sebastian Loeb. You're never going to win with this. Oh, cause it's top five, right? The SSIs in second. So you think the SSI is in second. I'm, I'm, so that's clearly your vote. I, I, right now, I wear the Corvette lies right now for me. The Corvette is in second, but I am, I, I'm not, um, against being convinced. There's one more factor. There's one more factor that I just thought of. If the SI looked like a Volkswagen Golf would be in second place. The RSXSI on track, the community of people you're going to be hanging out with. I would way rather be hanging out still. That is true with the Honda kids. Because while the drift community in Corvettes has become cool. Yep. I don't know if anybody else track community has caught up because you show up and in the garage, the other Corvette guys are going to be dudes that take it super serious and we're like, I'm faster than everybody. I got the most expensive tires. I got this kit. I got the supercharger, blah, blah, blah. Damn, yours is stock. Whereas you show up in a Honda and you're on cool wheels, nothing else matters. Like, damn, that shit stands out. Good color. It's a different, it's a different tribe, right? So that's why I think that the C five goes further on the list because it hasn't, the Corvettes have been in track days for forever, but that's a different track. You know, I just, I was just going to say that I think the Corvette's biggest problem here is that it's the giant amongst David's big time. Yeah. Because, because it's not expensive, because you should be having the conversation of do you want a nine, 11 or, you know, or a C six, right? But because Corvettes didn't keep their resale value. There's so many of that you, that you're not comparing them to like cars. So like it is the beast amongst all of these cars, which is like where the only reason it's in this group is because it's affordable. And I think at the end of the day, if we would have said entry level budget car, we wouldn't have included in the group because it's like just outside of entry level. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually I think a lot more than just outside. Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking about this is like first time, you know, like I'm getting a track car. I don't have one. I'm not getting another one. Right. You know, I'm not doing a budget one because I'm selling this. There used to be in it. I'm I have a budget to start to get a track car to start. Let me run the contrary. Let me run the contrary to that. But though real quick, there is something to be said about the life span the quarterback could have for me, meaning you can really grow in. Oh, you could keep it forever. You could drive that car for 15 years and keep getting more and more into it and do more and more to it. And when you could literally drive it to the point that you win time attack, like it is a car. It is a chassis that you could build to the highest. It is very complete. Twin turbo like LS seven swap. Yeah. That thing. Yeah. Full arrow. Package full like, you know, plywood arrow package that bad boy. And then it's it's a killer. So then at the end of the day, you're still hanging out with the quarterback guys. I mean, it is it is it is rear wheel drive, you know. So I mean, I think where did you where the twins chilling right now? Twins are in fourth. So we've got right now it's E46 real drive at the top, potentially civic SI front wheel drive in second and then third place C five vet fourth place, the twins rear wheel drive and then last place all wheel drive. Here's a weird thing for me, right? So like, I think that the civic goes second, then the Corvette can go next and the twins can go after, but if the Corvette goes above the civic, then like, I think the twins could like interchange with that too. Right. Because if I think about E46, you think the twins could interchange with what? I think that the C five. Yeah. Like I think it could be E46. I cannot stand for that. Absolutely. I get your argument, but again, we go back to this, the bang for the buck. Like, man, C five on tracks a good time. And we're not and we're not saying this is a great daily. Well, we're not these obviously aren't, you know, people who have a ton of track day experience, but this also we're not saying this is completely entry level either. Because if it was, we would steer everybody probably into a front wheel drive to get up and go get going. Right. So this is like a cost. Then it's just fit, fit, fit, fit. Yeah. Fit cup. So I think we got our answer. What was the answer? Uh, E46 SI C five twins. I'll accept that. Of course you will. You fought that. Well, you still think, see, you still think the SI should be number one. I think there's interchangeability in like the order of the list, right? So like you've got, you've got like some choices based off of your preference. Depends on person and agent. Right. So like you're like, I can get a rear wheel drive, German. Did I mention to you this is entirely subjective by three edits. You're one of them. Yeah. Yes. But I'm thinking for the people. He's reading the comments right now. Like, oh, I can't believe this. But yeah, but like that's, I mean, that's been my position for the last 10 years is to think about, I get to step away from this and go on the gravel. You have to go meet your people. The last interchangeability that we'll bring up is, is there any world where the twins is above the C5 vet? Do you think? No, not if the Civic is second. I don't know what that is. Like he won one. Yeah. He won one. Yeah. He's playing a leverage game. No, it's just, it's just, it's just like kind of like order of, of like choice. Right. I'm like thinking about like, I'm looking at it like kind of in pairs and then an outlier, right? Because like, if we look at that, it's like you have two great choices at one and two, right? You know, and then you've got two great choices in three and four, and then you have the WRX. Damn. Wow. I will not take any more of this slander. Wow. I'm not saying it's not a good choice, but it's number five. You give a man an SI in second place, which is actually an RSX and he takes a mod. Let's just, let's just cut to some beautiful time attacks done in GD. Yes. Thank you. GD is right. You just cut to that and let him remember how good that was. That's right. 2005. The June hyper lemon is exactly what I was going to say. It's on the list. The fit is not. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? No one has on their wall is a photo of a fit. Yeah. Post here. That's a fucking fact. On their wall. Maybe Scotty Banz. Yeah. Yeah. Banz got one. Yeah. Only as a joke. Okay. Yeah. So we're locking it in. I'm good with it. It's a lock. Here it is. I'll read it off from the bottom. In fifth place, we have the Subaru WRX GD in fourth place. We have the twins, aka the BRZ FRS combo. In third place, we have the heartbeat of America, the Corvette C5. Second place, the eighth gen. Eighth gen. Civic SI. And in first place, the BMW E46 330i. That's it. That is the list. It's strong. Everyone's like somewhat happy with it. I know you prefer like it just to be all Honda's. No, I feel good. I mean, like the fit, I think the fit like stayed on the list in the same way that it stays on the track and the same way that it like, you know, that it like rose to that. Like everybody wants it there, but at the end of the day. It's not supposed to be there. It's never going to finish first. Everybody wants it there, but it's not supposed to be there, right? And it's cool because it's not supposed to be there. But you know, like this is a good squad. Yeah. A bunch of great honorable mentions. If we missed anything, drop it in the comments. We know you have opinions. Throw your list in. If you want to get involved in the list earlier, you know, and maybe have a little bit more sway, join the Patreon. We have a way bigger fight in arguing about that. And also if you want to listen to our goblin list, which is just like just real degenerate where this was like one in the morning and I'm just being evil. You don't recommend this to anybody, but it's the things we would be. But I would. Yeah. This is the wood list. Yeah. So, and, uh, and I said it again, I'll say it 10 times more. Chris, not only thank you for coming, but thanks for everything that you've done with good life. It is a huge, amazing part of the community. You guys put on an awesome event and maybe one day I'll have enough time to like actually race a car in it one day. I'd love that. I would love to race in GLTC too. Dude, thank you. Huge, huge for the culture. I got to pitch you an idea too. It involves old Volkswagen's, but we'll get that. Here we go. As it should. Yeah. Anyway, thank you very much. Big thanks to all the partners and later. Of all the sunglass companies out there, you might ask, why heatwave? Aside from them being friends of mine, they just make great shades, awesome styles, cool collabs, smart tech. They even have extra large sizes for big heads like me. And for those of you wearing this on the job, they make ANSI Z87 spec safety glasses too. But what really attracts me to heatwave is that they are physically a part of our culture. You will find them everywhere from King of the Hammers to Formula Drift. You'll see everyone wearing heatwaves at your local track day event. Damn, you might even turn laps with the co-founder Justin because they're one of us. So one more reason to choose heatwave visual to fix your face. I'm a tool dork. My obsession might even dwarf my addiction to cars. I love collecting unique and specialty tools, which is how I initially fell in love with wearer. First off, they just make aesthetically pleasing tools. They feel good in your hand. They have a great finish. Their sizes are universally color coded and they are super strong. 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