EP2 - You May Recognize My Vagina

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It's just something I'm not very comfortable talking about with people closer to me and I could use an outsider's perspective. My basic question is, how much do you have to tell your new family? Because I'm engaged. About your embarrassing past. I feel like the details are important here. This starts a few years ago. Just after I turned 20. I had done a ton of small time modeling work over the years while I tried to get my real career going. But the work wasn't reliable and didn't pay all that well. I suddenly found myself desperately in need of more money than I could make. When a contact from modeling offered me what seemed like a lot of money to do some adult modeling, I very reluctantly did it. These pictures are no worse than what you find in a playboy. I never performed sex acts or even worked with a male photographer. But I did take a ton of pictures to fulfill my contract and they all revolve around me getting naked. I don't have any illusion about what this was. I wasn't making art. It was stuff for people to get off to. So I actually understand if people think that this is akin to prostitution. I expected that I never have to interact with the few people who would see those pictures. The problem was, I guess people liked my look because my pictures got spread all over the net. Without me seeing another dime, of course. Seriously, if you frequent just about any site that features links to naked people who aren't having sex, I guarantee you'll have come across one of my galleries. The feminist in me says women should be able to do this without being demonized, but my actual experiences make me really regret all this. So many people have seen this crap. Like at my last job, a bunch of my co-workers and my boss admitted to seeing me naked. This has led to more sexual harassment, judgment and creepiness than you'd believe. I don't expect people to condone what I did. I wasn't excited about it in the first place, but very few people seem to realize that I was doing it because I needed money and not because I'm a giant slut. For what it's worth, I'm actually very sexually conservative. As I mentioned, I'm now engaged. My fiance is actually more okay with all of this than I am, and the few people who are really close to us know about it. But my fiance comes from a huge family with step siblings and a bunch of nieces and nephews, some of whom are hitting puberty. We can't seem to agree on what we should tell people. I'm not eager to say anything. Ideally, nobody would see this stuff and I can move on with my life. But I know that's unrealistic. People check this kind of stuff out and they're going to see me eventually. I don't want to tip people off about this like, okay kids, you know your new aunt Beth? You can see hundreds of pictures of her getting undressed, so don't go looking for those. But if people are going to know about this and some will, I'd rather be able to try to explain myself than have it be some open secret that everyone's too embarrassed to admit or have it cause some kind of scandal down the road. My fiance supports me, however I choose to deal with this. I just don't know who in his family I should tell or what I should say. I don't know why you'd want to help me. I get that very few people seem to feel any sympathy. But like I said, I could really use another perspective on this and I'm really uncomfortable telling more people that actually know me. Any thoughts? You guys are the best. XO. Yeah, so that was our first interaction. Interaction with Beth. When these emails would come in and like when you read, you may recognize my vagina. At the time, did you read that and think, oh my God, this is so exciting or were you hesitant? As us as a show, there was a lot of playfulness, light hardness, there was a lot of sex talk that I do think that there might have been something delightful about that subject line to us that, oh, they'll think this is funny. I'm guessing there was an air of that to the subject line, right? Yes, totally. It was in our brand of humor. Totally. And I think that's important because also as we're talking about this, Beth, her interactions with us at no point in time, well, no, that might not be true. But at this point in time, it did not seem like a crisis situation. She presented it almost like tongue and cheek. Right. Yeah, it felt kind of lighthearted and on brand. So I probably was excited about this. So before you would read it on the podcast and have this open discussion, you would respond. Yeah. And usually it's like, great question. Well, definitely answer it. And that was also part of me. I think now I would assume it's consent if they're writing in the question to have us respond to. But that was also my way of informing you. We will be reading this and talking about it. Yes. Should I read my email response to her? Yeah, totally. And you haven't just for their audience. You have not revisited this response since no. They haven't. Okay. Oh, wow. I totally feel sympathy. Honestly, if any of the poor decisions I made in my youth had been for public consumption, I'd be beyond upset. We will absolutely discuss on a future totally married. Thank you for sending in. Which is that's very kind. That's very kind. That was that. Yeah. That was kind. I think that's the kind of response. Oh, you're so sweet to say that. I think I get why people don't feel much sympathy. It's not like most women have to choose whether or not to do this. So whatever other mistakes they may have made, they're sure that they wouldn't make this one. Hmm. Huh. It almost feels like text. Yeah, it's familiar. It is. It's actually back then. I know. Yeah. Immediately. I mean, this is the third interaction. Okay. She sends another email the next day at 247 AM. She says, oof. I just reread part of my original email because I'm so nervous about my wording. I wasn't clear on this, but when I said I had done small time modeling while trying to get my real career going, I wasn't talking about a modeling career. I never wanted that. Just something I fell into and now we'll never do again. Exo. Beth. Okay. And then we'll go back to the clarity there. She wants me to know that her ambitions were never to be a model. It was just like to make money. Okay. So she was obviously ruminating. Yeah. Because that's the middle of the night and she is going back and looking at old emails and it's obviously on like top of mind for her. Yes. Is that a detail that you as women is relevant? Because to me, I'm like, that changes nothing to me. It feels honestly like when I've done this before and I've had people do it to me, but you go to a party and you have a great time. And then at 2 a.m., you wake up when you go, when I complimented her glasses to do come across, like I really didn't like them. And I write a text that's like, hey, your glasses, when I said they reminded me of my grandmother's, that actually was sincerely a compliment. Like, Grandma, I had the best style of anyone I've ever known. It does feel like that. To me, this doesn't change anything. Yeah. But it just is an insight to her headspace. Yeah. So one part of this story that I cannot reiterate enough that this was seven plus years ago. And we had been podcasting for a while and we're very naive to, I don't know, interactions and stuff like that. So we're kind of very anxious to hear when our actual response on the podcast was about this because a lot has changed since then. Yes. Were us in the culture, you mean? Yes. Like, in our views on things. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason most of our back episodes are on Patreon behind a paywall. Because we don't want it just, you know, out there. Not that anything was crazy. But I'm worried that we're going to be like super reckless and playful in our response. Do you know what I mean? Back then. Sure. We had no idea what was coming down the pipeline. Yeah. Here's that clip. It's from the end of her question. This is going into our response. She says, I don't know why you'd want to help me. I get that very few people seem to feel any sympathy, but I could really use another perspective. I do feel sympathy. Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah. Listen. First of all, I mean, I actually did a nude photoshoot that is not knowing can ever see this or because this very reputable photographer here in LA when I was like, 21 years old was doing something on empowering what all women's bodies look like. And I was like, sign me up because I have dealt with body images use. And I thought like if this maybe will help me feel empowered in some ways and also just I like the idea of there being images of real women's bodies out there. Okay. So I did it and the project never came to light, which I am now grateful for. I did a naked photoshoot as well. You did. That's right. I've seen those pictures. For an ad campaign, that never came to light. So we're both lucky in that. This writer-inner had no idea it was going to become what it was. Right. And I mean, there's no shame in it to me at all. No, no, no. Not at all. You got away from me though. It went viral. So my whole point was Andy and I both could have been in similar situations. I have my photos. I know. Should I put those up in the comment section? No. Anyway, so point being one thing I want to say and there is a follow up to this and I know the question is just basically, should we tell people in my future family and how if so, but I just want to say it sounds like this writer-inner is carrying a lot of shame for this. Oh, interesting. That I just don't think she, I'm wondering if she could go to a therapist and find a way to unburden herself and just look at it for what it is, which was you made a choice. That you regret, but like it doesn't define who you are. I think that this writer-inner shame is coming through loud and clear on this question. And personally, I don't think she needs to have shame about it. How do you feel? Here's my advice. Okay. No, do not tell the family. There's absolutely no reason to be proactive in this situation. At some point in time, it comes up. You can totally address it then and I would own it then. This is the sort of thing. I would feel just like her because I might think that like everyone in your family would know about it and be talking about it behind my and your back and even wondering if you knew about it and judging me for it. No one's necessarily going to say something to her about it. And then she's like paranoid. Right. So it might make her feel better. My advice would be that if there's ever an opportunity to bring it up in a casual way, like if you're talking about maybe have your husband bring up like odd jobs that people worked and you could bring up, you're like, oh my God, well, when I was in my 20s, I did the craziest thing. I really needed money. It was a lot of money, but I did not anticipate it was going to follow me around for the rest of my life lesson learned. That is just the one thing that I have a hard time with being proactive about it is like it does open up the can of worms. Right. But I get your point though. I mean, yeah, like do you defuse the bomb, so to speak? Right. Well, maybe she's diffusing her paranoia bomb. But she might be lighting a different bomb though. You guys, I'm sorry. Before we move on, we have to address that both of you have done nude modeling. Guilty. Guilty? We have you not? No, I'm feeling like maybe there's something wrong with me. No one asked me to nude model. Everyone has done nude modeling. No, that was insane. I hadn't even forgotten about that. Not Andy's, but yes. Wow. Andy, how did you feel about that? I was like, oh, we weren't reckless or anything. I felt fine with it. I was worried that we would have said way dumber stuff. Did you feel okay? Yeah. Yeah. I did. Yes, I was pretty pleased with how we responded. I was very happy that I suggested she go to a therapist. Yeah. But that's not actually the end of our answer. So let's play the rest. Okay. Here's an interesting update though. Basically, my fiancee got a call this morning from his brother letting him know that there were new pictures of me on the internet. Even though it was an awkward conversation, my future brother-in-law seemed cool about it. But I guess my point is it really seems like it's impossible to keep this away from my loved ones. And the treatment I've gotten in the past has made me so paranoid about how people will react. When I think about having kids down the road, I almost get sick thinking about how this will affect them. And it would be so much easier if taking those pics was something I really believed in that I'd be willing to defend on principle because women should be able to do this kind of thing without being treated like whores. But it was never something I wanted to do at all. Oh, okay. Ooh. That does make it interesting. Yeah. Here are my thoughts. Number one, I think it's good that the brother-in-law knows and called the brother so he can kind of act as a diffuser for the rest of the family. Oh, yeah, that's right. If it comes up, so I hope that the writer and air can let go of her paranoia. If anyone treats her differently because of this, that's on them. That's on them. You don't need to worry about what it means for you. You know who you are. In terms of your kids growing up, I think if it does come up, I mean, part of me hopes that by then, yeah, I don't know. There'll be so many more images on the internet and it won't be a thing by then. Hopefully not. But if it does come up, I would just take it as a learning teaching opportunity with your kids to say, I did something I regretted because, and I think we all have, we're gonna have to teach our kids so much about not sending naked selfies. It actually will be a great learning opportunity and they can learn from what you went through and however it affects them. So it might be in a, I mean, not a way you would want, but it might be a positive thing for your kids. So I would just try to find peace for yourself, let it play out if anyone ever brings it up to you or treats you differently because of it. You can explain to them what you explain to us and if they still judge you for it, then I think that that's gonna be very eye-opening for that person that you don't really need to respect their opinion anyway. Yeah, I think that's, I like it. You got nothing to be ashamed of. You need to do a little healing on this on your own. Just own it. Yeah, I think that's good. Okay, so that was your response to her follow-up. Now what are your thoughts having heard all that? You know what one thing was striking to me as I went on the rollercoaster hearing that of like the amount of paranoia of these photos and I think as an outsider, you're like, I mean, don't worry about it. And now we're like, there's so many pictures on the internet, but then there was one moment when she had the follow-up where for whatever reason, and I've never had this thought before, it did resonate like, oh, I do know that feeling like when something happens and you're so worried. Well, one, so in the follow-up email, I have it in front of me. And when you read it on the podcast, you did leave out the last line. Oh. She says, so I'm obviously still really struggling with this issue. Shit. That's rough. Yeah, and it's, this just gets so tricky knowing how this ends. Yeah, really. I'm honestly so uncomfortable right now knowing that we even addressed it on air after hearing this. Yeah. And it is all relevant, which I think we touched on last week, but our mature expert has a show. We have multiple shows where we talk to people as well. Right. It's a weird thing when you read someone's personal question or experience and it's dicey or upsetting or intense and you get a tiny thrill. Yes. Yeah, because you get to then deep dive in it. It's weird. Well, I feel that's almost part of our culture now and also as a TV writer, I'm acutely aware of that. Like, people using their trauma, which is beautiful. If people can find positives out of their trauma and help other people, but it's almost like, if you go through something, you have to then use that and in TV writing also, I mean, there have been many times, I've brought my own stories in that it was really empowering. Maybe it was the stories that were painful or something like that, but that shouldn't be the expectation for sure. You know, but it was like, that's a great story. Right. It gets a little sparkle in the eye. There is a little bit of trading in trauma currency, a little bit, but it's just something to consider. I've just been thinking about that on my own. Yeah, Monica, when you say that, is it dual-sided? Like, one, there's a thrill up. Ooh, we get to talk about this on the show. It'll make for a good show. Plus, ooh, I get to talk about this with the person. Like, you're getting led in on a secret. Like, is it both of those things or is the quality of the show the bigger one? Because I think for us, it was probably, for me, it was that, but for you, maybe it was both. Elizabeth, what do you think? Yeah, well, I think I got more excited about the, like, I'm connecting with this person. And when we would have follow-ups, which we did with Beth, have many, and there were other particularly like young women who seemed to be struggling and maybe didn't have a support system. I mean, I couldn't help but feel a little bit like the big sister who was caring for them. There's a validation, like, you're worthy of answering this question. Yeah, I know you. Which we did make very clear on our show. I mean, the whole thing was, it's unqualified advice from two idiots. Yeah, it's flea. Yeah. We had no qualifications to answer anything. So we hammered that home pretty well, I think. It is weird because I didn't, I really was, not that Elizabeth was ever hiding any of this from me. Yeah, up late at night, like, he's asleep. No, but just, I think I would never have the bandwidth to be able to even engage with people. Like, I get overwhelmed with doing emails, with talking to people. So I'm assuming you would never expect me to even know about this or care. Or care. Who cares? Yeah, yeah. Is more it at that time, but it is weird to find out after the fact just how much Elizabeth was talking to people. Yeah. Yeah. Support for Beth's dead comes from row. Row offers the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest cost around. The new GLP1 pill has the same weight loss ingredient as the shot impacts comparable results to the shot. That's one daily pill for fewer cravings and feeling fuller with an innovative new formula, clinically proven to maximize weight loss. Now, I have been on a GLP1 for almost a year, and I have felt so many benefits. I'm actually not even on it for weight loss, but you can see overall health benefits across the board. 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I feel like at this point, you guys are just like answering sort of... Jovially and the way you do. Yeah, totally. Do you have more interactions with her? Yes. Okay. Can you flip through and see the next one is from her? Okay. I'm gonna read it. Hi, Elizabeth. I tried making a comment on your site, but I think I screwed something up. It's not important, though. Everyone's been so supportive. Even that one guy that wasn't, didn't say anything I haven't heard a million times before from people much closer to me. Okay, so she's giving an update. Yeah, the comment section on our website comes into play here in a pretty big way. And that was kind of step one. There was some guy, I think his name was Frank, and he was poking the bear. So she went and commented, hey, I'm the girl from the episode, because people were already weighing in. Like, I feel so bad for her. Okay. And so he came in and was basically slutshaming her. Really? Yes. So I have these comments in front of me. There's a bunch. And I think it started off nicely. Yeah, it was mostly supportive. Yeah. So lots here, then I see Frank. Okay. So I'll read that because that was referring to Frank. To the girl in the nude photos. Yeah, if you need to go to therapy to get over this, then do it. But you don't get to control how other people feel about it. Apparently other people here think you did nothing wrong and that's fine. Many people wouldn't feel that way. I hate to say it, but I think you should feel a little bad about it, not because I'm religious at all, because I think you helped contribute to the idea that women are just sex objects for men to enjoy. You're worried that your in-laws will find out about this? Well, their son and maybe their future grandchildren can be very negatively affected by your actions. So maybe you should try putting yourself in their shoes before you start complaining about how they might feel about you. Yeah. Now, Elizabeth, you responded to this. I did. Yeah. Oh. Can't I read it? Okay. From Elizabeth. Oh, God. Oy, ve, Frank. This is incredibly harsh and for what purpose exactly? I mean, have you ever made a mistake? Do you understand that she did these photos before the internet was what it was today? How could she have possibly imagined that the seemingly innocuous way to make some money when she needed it would haunt her for the rest of her life? And do your statement about contributing to the idea that women are just sex objects? Here's my thought on that. You are a man I assume from your name. You have no place to weigh in on this for a woman. For the same reason I took new photos. You love to bring up your new photos. I don't even remember. You're on fire. We really need to talk about that. You don't want to. No. For the same reason I took new photos as a young woman, women's relationships with their bodies and sexuality is complicated to a degree that men do not understand. Not that I think she should have had the foresight to understand how mass spread her photos would be and to what degree they would be used. But even if she did, she could have chosen to do this to empower herself to her own sexuality, et cetera. And she owes nothing to the concerns of how this or her in-laws or family feel. I really, really hate this comment. It feels so abusive and counterproductive. And for no good reason other than you want to shame someone for a choice, they made a very long time going cannot change it and trying to heal from. Wow. Shut it down. Yeah. That's so impressive. Thank you. And I'm also so embarrassed that like, I wouldn't even be able to type word one or respond to that guy's asshole comment. Like I wouldn't even know where to begin. That's really impressive. I mean, I love that you defended her. And obviously what I can gather is like, at this point you're invested. You care. I care. Yeah. I think I'm caring a lot at this point. And do you think because of the overwhelming response on the website, like with all the comments and then especially this guy where you're like, oh, I'm invested or were you invested before you even saw the audience response to the question? I think I was invested. Also, you know, we would get questions along these lines or something like this pretty frequently that we are answering through the lens of two liberal people living in LA with like, you know, we would get questions about people coming out and things like that where I also think it was easy for us to go, no, don't say anything. Don't worry about it. But then when I took a step back and had more interactions with her and realized, she's coming from a place where the people surrounding her have a very different mindset than the people surrounding us. Yeah. I took it more seriously, I think, you know. Yeah, the next answer. Yeah, and this comment section is huge. There are so many comments about this question. And people really engaging like back and forth. I see a lot from Natasha, who's a woman who it seems, is kind of on your side Elizabeth and yes, and Anders, Frank back and forth. Is there like one pro comment we could hear over there, Malika? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, also I see Beth's response. Hi everyone, I'm the girl in the nude photos online. She says, and yes, except for the name, there's nothing to hide that it's me, not even Photoshop or dyed hair. It was so interesting hearing two strangers have the same conversation that I've been having with my fiance for months and with myself for years. My fiance is on the same page as you guys, saying however other people treat me, I should be accepting of this the way he is. And rationally, I know that's true. And I'm starting to accept that I need to get into therapy. Weirdly enough, maybe the clearest proof of that was how I reacted as soon as Elizabeth began reading my letter. I felt my whole body clench as if Elizabeth and Andy was gonna say something really hurtful or judgmental, even though I didn't really believe that for a second. To address the question of whether or not I'm carrying around a lot of shame from this, when I took the pictures, I certainly wasn't ashamed at all and would have defended them the way I'd still defend another woman's right to do this. When I say I didn't wanna do it, I only mean that I didn't do it as an act of self-expression or want it to be my contribution to the world. But after years of some pretty harsh treatment from a small minority of people, yeah, I definitely feel a lot of shame about this. I know I shouldn't, but how I know I should feel and how I actually do feel have become very different. Okay, so she then goes on to address Frank specifically. She says, Frank, it absolutely blows my mind that you apparently heard my letter and interpreted that to me that I'm whining about people thinking mean things about me. Of course, people are free to think whatever they want. Even comments like yours are common enough that they don't hurt my feelings. Usually though, it's women who are telling me that I'm setting feminism back or leading men into temptation or whatever, so congrats. So for Natasha, because you asked and Frank, because you genuinely seem oblivious to what women can go through, I'll have to write another comment soon. I'm just out of time right now, explaining some of the treatment I've gotten that has actually hurt me so much. And I'm sorry if I'm complaining too much for your taste from other Elizabeth. Damn, I didn't know she weighed in like that. Oh yeah, yes, she weighs in. That was one, I mean, I rarely like mediated in the comment section. Yeah. That was one where I definitely kind of got a box. You felt like you needed to be a part of it. It's interesting because Natasha was another listener who you'll remember from last episode. She's the Norwegian dancer that I kind of like formed a bond with and she was very active in like the community, I guess. That's right. She and Beth, I think via this specific comment section, formed a connection. Yeah, that is what it's seeming like. There's one from Natasha that says, and this is a while later. Also, everyone's referring to her as other Elizabeth, which is funny. Other Elizabeth has there been any update on the question you first wrote about? Did you decide to talk to your fiance? If so, how'd they take it? And I know a son of my business, but my husband and I have been so concerned for you. Even though we feel you did absolutely nothing wrong, we also acknowledge that people can be very sensitive anytime female sexuality comes up. Who's that one? Natasha. Oh, geez. So the next day there was a email from Beth. Tonight I told a lot of people about my nude photos. It went so much worse than I ever imagined. It was the worst night of my life. I've never felt so worthless thanks anyway for trying to help me. And that's it? Mm-hmm, no sign off. That's in really intense. Yeah. Also, I should, that was 233 a.m. Oh, you respond at a normal time. 11 a.m. 11. But then at the same day, the same day though. Same day. I say, oh, shit, Beth, I'm so sorry. It went that way. Will you please promise me that you'll get into therapy ASAP? This book, my heart, and while I know it is awful right now, I trust that you will get to a place where you see that anyone who judges you for what you did in your past with your own body that wasn't hurting anyone else is not someone worthy of your respect or worry. I understand this is your family in law and will be hard to navigate, but I know you will find peace within yourself, which will allow you to find peace with their ignorance. What you did is totally okay. The repercussions I understand have been hard for you to contend with, but remember you had no idea that was going to happen with this photo shoot. At worst, it was an honest mistake you made as a young woman at best. It was something you chose to do to make some cash and you have no shame about the human body or sexuality, which is a good thing. Any way you slice it is not worthy of judgment and anyone who thinks otherwise is small-minded cruel and would find a way to be toxic towards you and others if this weren't it. I'm sending you love. Please go speak with someone and lean on your husband to be for support. That's really sweet. It is. I think this was the first red flag for me of like, her saying I feel worthless. These are big statements. And I think I was realizing I'm maybe in over my head at this point, her first email so playful, you might recognize my vagina and like, and I think at this moment in time, I realized, oh, this is fucking serious. And so I followed up later that day. So that was 11 a.m. And then 1113. Oh, God. Five minutes later. Will you keep me posted on how you're feeling about all of this? I really want to be there to hug you. I'm so sorry you're going through this for something so benign in my opinion. Whoa. So you're now I'm you're spinning out. Yeah. Five minutes later. I think I am spinning out. And I think I did realize, oh, God, she responds that day at 1135. Thanks so much. I guess my fiance really did expect everyone to be totally fine with it. When some people started saying that now they couldn't trust my judgment or my honesty or asked him to think about problems at my cause in the future, he defended me. But as you drove me home, God, but as you drove me home, he started talking about how he quote owed it to his family to take their concerns seriously. And I deserve to marry into a family that accepted me unconditionally. He just kept saying those two things. Before the drive was over, he had put the engagement, quote, on hold while he thought about things. But I know it's not happening if he's this uncertain about me now. I'm seeing it there up his next week and I have a good few friends to lean on. Thank you so much for the support from you and your other listeners. So her life is unraveling and you're at the computer. Again, these aren't texts, these are emails. Emails. I say, oh my God, Beth, that is awful. I hope this is just an incredibly huge lapse in judgment on his part and that he comes to you today begging for forgiveness. And you will both have to work on be rebuilding trust because of his betrayal. If he doesn't and continues to side with his ignorant family, I truly again think this is a gift for you, even though it seems impossible to see it that way. But if a man you're about to marry is so easily able to turn against you for a choice you made so long ago, I can't imagine it would be easy to navigate life with him as a teammate when the going really gets tough. I mean, this is all over. A few photos you took as a young woman, so ridiculous. He's willing to throw his happiness and love away for something as benign as that. Ugh, I'm so sorry. Anyway, thank you for the update. Keep me posted and know that I'm rooting for you. That's kind of a big swing you took there. I know. I'm kind of weirded out listening back to this that I'm basically just telling you to blow up her life. They're engaged. It's on pause, but you not knowing that much of their relationship or what not are like, you're dodging a bullet if this falls apart with your person that you want to marry. You're in deep. Yeah. Too deep. It's like the parasocial relationship tables have turned. And now I'm the one giving very disruptive advice. A few days later, Beth responds. I was hoping you could do me a crazy favor. Could you just take a look at one of my galleries? I'm begging. If you want to listen to all the best debt ad free, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts or on Patreon, where you can also chat with other listeners, watch live streams, get bonus episodes, and more. That's at patreon.com slash best debt. Beth's debt is presented by ARM Cherx for its monocopadmin and nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lane, and Monocopadmin, additional engineering by Rob Hollis, the user can sound by Andy Rosen.