Rewind: Love In Transition

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That's right Meanwhile, you know, we've been thinking about Valentine's Day, of course And thinking about all the times that we are living through right now And also wanting to celebrate all kinds of love Yeah, because you can't have too much of it No one has ever said that's too much affection in the world Too much love And it really does come in all the forms and shapes and sizes and ways of thinking about it that you can possibly imagine. Yeah. Which, you know, these feel like cringe comments, but they're also true comments. Nothing true is cringe. I'm going to say that. Okay. Is that true? I'm going to say that. Another true comment, though, is this episode is OG. This came out. Did this come out in 2018, our first year? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Our first year. Okay, this came out when we were still partnered with Reddit. So you can kick back. You can see if you can ignore our baby's first podcast 2018 voices. Hey, Ben. Hi, Emery. And you can enjoy one of our favorite episodes about the most powerful emotion in the universe. This is Love in Transition. Hey, quick heads up. This episode of our show mentions suicidal thoughts. Fair warning. The National Suicide Prevention Line, by the way, is 1-800-273-8255 if you need someone to talk to. Okay, let's get to it. How did you two meet? Well, and this is Samantha. we met almost 15 years ago at the University of Arizona, and we were both in the marching band there. I played the trumpet, and I had marched for a couple years, and this was her first year marching. Yeah, and this is Laura now, and I actually, my primary instruments are flute and piano, and a friend of mine talked me into marching trumpet because he didn't think I would like marching piccolo. So I learned the basics of the trumpet and joined the trumpet section. And we met and then kind of the rest is history, I guess. When people say the rest is history, there's a suggestion that we've all heard this before. Maybe even that the story itself is typical. But obviously, you haven't heard this story yet. Samantha and Laura live in Phoenix, Arizona. They're both moms. They both work. Blah, blah, blah, the rest is history. But Samantha and Laura's story is actually pretty extraordinary. The question is where to start. Emory, lots of different starting points, but I think we should start at one of the moments when it seemed like Samantha and Laura's story was finished. You wrote in your Reddit comment, I think that this had become a life or death situation. It had. I had a plan to end my life in October of 2016 and to do it in a way where it wouldn't necessarily look like a suicide. Okay. I had an opportunity to go hiking at the Grand Canyon with some friends. You know, mistakes happen out there, and I had developed a plan, basically, where I would end up in the Colorado River, which is a very dangerous stretch of river, and not find my way out of it. It would look like an accident, and that would have been the end of it. But Samantha had a change of heart. She had one of those deep camping trip conversations with a friend about family and life, and she stepped back from the edge. And the reality of the situation was, it's not that I ever wanted to go. But in that moment and under that stress, and after so long of hiding and doing a very good job of hiding it, it seemed like maybe this would be better than actually dealing with the situation. The situation. The situation for Samantha started when she was a kid, maybe even before that. But it really started to present itself when she was about to get married. For the first time, 12 years ago. she got cold feet. If you're thinking right now, wait, who is marrying whom in this story? Samantha is marrying Laura. Twice, actually. Here's how Laura remembers what happened the first time. During those few days that we were thinking about postponing the wedding, of course, I was devastated. And I went to a counselor and I talked to them about the situation. And I thought it was kind of wrapped up in the depression that I'd seen her fight in the time we'd been together because it was always there. It would come. It would go. It would be really bad for a while. It would get better for a while. And so I described all this to the counselor, and she said, well, before you get married, you just need to know what you see is what you get. And I kind of laughed to myself now because she couldn't have been more wrong. There was a big change coming in Laura and Samantha's relationship, a change that was the reason they basically got married a second time. That and they needed new pictures. Did you use the same photographer? We did. Did you? That's cool. Yeah, we actually did. We really loved his work the first time around, so we reached out to him again and had him back. And when Laura married Samantha back in 2006, Samantha was wearing a suit. Samantha was assigned male at birth, but she had this feeling, this thing she was ignoring because it scared her. and ignoring it was tearing her apart, which is why, 10 years into their marriage, things got tricky. There was no doubt in my mind that I loved Laura and wanted to be there with her and was absolutely committed to her. I was just terrified about this other side of me that she really didn't know about, and I wasn't sure if it was something I could put away or if it was something I had to deal with. I'm Ben Brock Johnson, and this is Endless Thread, a show featuring stories found in the vast ecosystem of online communities called Reddit. One does not simply walk into our show without knowing how it is made. I'm here with my co-host, Amory Sievertson, and we're coming to you from Boston's NPR station, WBUR. Today's episode, the rest is history. In 2006, Laura married Samantha, her college sweetheart from the University of Arizona marching band, even though her sweetheart had suffered a bout of cold feet. When she said, no, I'm ready and let's move forward, I didn't question it and I didn't push it. I just said, OK, let's do it. There's footage of that first wedding. It looks like a traditional wedding between a man and a woman. The love is clearly there. Yeah. When the officiant says, you may kiss the bride, you are now married. You may kiss your precious bride. The kiss lasts long enough that someone in the audience says, easy tiger, which is part of why for a while after the wedding, everything seemed fine. But then the depression Laura had known about in her partner ramped up. and in 2015, 2016, it started to get really, really bad. And I had no idea what was going on. I just assumed that it was the stress of our lives. We have lots of young kids. Four young boys actually which is a lot And they all fall on different points of the autism spectrum which is more than a lot The diagnoses were starting that same year and so I just assumed it was wrapped up in that And so I was pushing her to seek counseling. And I don't know if you've ever been through that process, but you call your insurance company and they give you a list of 30 therapists or something. So I'm going down this list. I'm calling all these therapists. And each one I talk to, I get a little info about their background. And I describe it to her. And she says, oh, no, that doesn't sound like the right fit. No, I don't think that one's a good fit. And, of course, in my head I'm thinking, what is the right fit? And so finally I get to the end of the list. And I'm like, well, that's it. There are no more names on this list. And so she sends me a list of three names that she found. So I said, okay. So I called all three. I found an appointment, got it all set up. And I thought to myself after the fact, what is so great about these three therapists that's so much better than all these other ones that I had called? And so I Googled all three of them and they all listed LGBT in their expertise. And I was like, no, that can't be what's going on. There is no way, no possible way that could be what's happening. Well, I always felt different growing up. I can remember being six, seven years old and laying in bed and just wishing that, you know, I wish that I'd wake up as a girl. And I, you know, come to find out later, that's not something that most people wish for at that age. And as puberty kicked in and as I, you know, entered my teens, I was devastated by the changes that that brought to my body. It felt incongruent with who I was. It didn't match. It didn't feel right. None of it was right. So one example, I remember, you know, body hair. When that first started coming in, I know this is kind of a silly story, but, you know, my legs were hairy and they were starting to show. I was devastated by that. I wanted to shave my legs so bad. But I was told, no, that's not what boys do. You can't shave your legs. You need to leave it and, you know, you'll get used to it. I had to make a decision at an early age or at least in those teens that, you know, this I just need to keep close to the chest. This is something that I don't want to share. If I do share it, bad things could happen or it seemed like bad things could happen. Of course, if you push that stuff way down, other bad things can happen. That crushing weight of being stuck in the wrong body. over the 10 years of our marriage, it was just a slow crescendo that entire time, basically. Just slowly getting worse, slowly becoming more present, slowly consuming my thoughts. It was in every waking moment. You know, on weekends, I was stuck in bed because it was just so overwhelming that I have to get up and I have to pretend to be this person that I'm not. This is around the time that Samantha plans and then bails on suicide. Laura says even though she knew something was wrong, she couldn't have guessed what it was. There were no clues. There were no hints. I lived with her day in and day out for 10 plus years and I had no idea. Nobody had any clue because she hid it so well. Until Samantha gave Laura that list of therapists, just about a month after the trip to the Grand Canyon. And after this, Laura takes a big step towards her partner. And I just said, so I noticed all the therapists have something in common. We were in the car at the time. She's looking straight ahead. She won't even make eye contact. She's like, uh-huh. Like, well, they all list LGBT. Uh-huh. I'm like, so do you think maybe you might have a gender issue? And she said, maybe. Maybe. Probably not the answer Samantha wanted to give, let alone the answer Laura wanted to hear. And so then my heart just started beating out of my chest and my head was spinning. And I'm like, OK, have a good reaction. Be calm. Be coherent. Don't freak out, you know. Laura, was that, I mean, presumably that was pretty scary for you. Yeah, I mean, it was definitely unexpected. And in those initial hours, right when I first found out, there was a tiny sense of relief, to be honest, because it was like, OK, this is the thing. This is the thing. that has been causing the depression all these years. This is why she's been so miserable. And so in that way, it kind of made a little bit of sense. But then when I started to think about, well, what does this mean for our marriage? What does this mean for the kids? What does this mean for family and friends and work and all the other parts of our lives that were going to be impacted? It was definitely overwhelming. And we talked nonstop. We stayed up. It was like we were dating for the first time again. We were up until 2 a.m. every day trying to talk through things, and some of those conversations were very positive, and some were very emotional and very difficult. I was going to say, it sounds like fun. Yeah. You know, the early days of dating, staying up till 2 a.m., talking about your feelings, but I think there's, yeah, that's a great analogy to it. In a lot of ways, we had to start a relationship over from scratch. I mean, this is such a game changer in how we saw each other and how other people see us as well. Samantha, do you remember any sort of detail from some of those early conversations that was particularly hard or revelatory? You know, I think what was really important from that very early point in time is that Laura told me that she wasn't sure she could stay, but she loved me. And she wanted to be there for me. And I think that's really one of the best things she could have said in that moment. My biggest fear was that not only did I have to deal with this, but that I would lose everyone and everything along the way. So when she gave me that reassurance that first night, that was a huge relief for me. Even though it wasn't necessarily a final answer, it was an answer that I'm willing to try and I'm willing to hold your hand. And that was so important at that time. Now, obviously, we can't see into the future to know if things are going to get better in our own relationships. But Samantha did have something to offer Laura. So I had actually registered on Reddit about two years before I came out to Laura, or before she found out. And a big reason why I created the Reddit account in the first place was to have better access to the transgender communities that were available. and Trans Timelines was one of those subreddits. And if you're not familiar with it, it's a subreddit where people can post photos of before and afters during their transition. And what's so incredible about it is everyone there is so normal. These are people going through their everyday lives. You know, some have children, some are married, some have significant others, and they're open and willing to share their stories about that. And that really opened my eyes in a lot of ways. The trans communities of Reddit gave Samantha a roadmap she hadn't found elsewhere. Real people like her going through the same challenges. And not just challenges of the trans experience, but challenges of the experience of couples going through this. Samantha shared this stuff with Laura as well, which was good, but also hard. I can actually remember within the first week of finding out, I was watching one of the videos that she sent me, and I had to stop it partway through because I was just sobbing uncontrollably because it was just so overwhelming. It's like she had this whole other side of her life that I just had never known anything about. Yeah, I'm sure that hurt, right? Yeah, I mean, it definitely hurt to be kept in the dark. I will say I don't equate it to lying or cheating or anything like that. It's not the same thing in my mind, but it definitely hurt. It really wasn't clear whether the relationship could withstand the reality of what Samantha and Laura were experiencing. Laura decides she's going to give it a year. We'll talk about giving it a year, but first, give us a minute. At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science. neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radiolab adventures on the edge of what we think we know Wherever you get your podcasts Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken A podcast from the Mehrotra Institute at BU Questrom School of Business When a geopolitical crisis hits, how should a board respond? Perhaps by helping the company find its core values. Who are we? What is our vision? What is our strategy? As an organization, what is our ethos? What are our morals and values? Follow Is Business Broken? Wherever you get your podcasts. and stick around until the end of this podcast to preview a recent episode. Visit wbur.org slash creative studio. So Laura and Samantha are going through this pretty fundamental challenge to their marriage, their relationship, and the future of their family. But they've found a pretty vibrant set of trans communities on Reddit that's giving them some guidance. And one day, they have a breakthrough. Samantha finds this post on Reddit's trans-positive community. It links to a photo album called Alex and Tessa Get Married. There are two brides, one of whom, Tessa, is trans. Samantha shows the album to Laura. And I'll never forget, it was this beautiful black and white photo, and the caption just said, sometimes everything really does work out. And I thought, okay, someone else made it through this, so maybe we can too. and so that year was up last November and I'm still here so that's good but I just I felt like for me personally she's my soulmate my best friend my favorite person the love of my life and I felt like I owed it to myself and to our relationship in the life we built to really give it a good try before throwing in the towel. And not to say that I wouldn't decide one day that I couldn't stay, but initially at least I decided to stick it out and see how it went. Laura's decision to stay was the main thing. But maybe the trans community on Reddit, where people were talking about their own experiences, good and bad, could help them find a path. Hey, Tessa. Hey. Hey, Alex couldn't make it in case you didn't hear. Oh, no. Yeah, got stuck at work. Oh. Okay, so there's been some seat swapping in the studio. Laura, Samantha's wife, has traded places with Tessa. Nice shirt. Thank you. What does Tessa's shirt say? I survived testosterone poisoning. It's pretty amazing. Tessa is trans, and she was one of the brides from that wedding album on Reddit that Samantha sent to Laura, with the black and white shot that inspired some optimism about things working out. We had a lovely wedding. You know, I wore this gorgeous blue and yellow dress. And, you know, I posted it on some of the Reddit threads because, hey, I wanted to celebrate. And this was something that you don't see a lot in media or even necessarily on Reddit, that not only do sometimes partners stay with people or transitioning, but their relationship continues to evolve. A picture of Tessa might inspire optimism, but meeting in person is a heck of a lot better. Shortly after coming out, Samantha joined a support group called Trans Spectrum of Arizona. Those first early group meetings that I went to, I was just barely, or actually this is before I was even presenting female. This is me trying to figure out more information and find doctors for hormones and things like that. And I see her sitting across the room and it's like seeing someone from television, right? It's like, I know you. Turns out, Samantha and Tessa both live in Phoenix. Samantha came up to me and said, hey, I saw your pictures on Reddit. And I'm like, oh. And she was like, yeah, they were really helpful. And I'm like, oh, I'm glad to hear that. That's why I put them up. And what are the odds of that in the grand scheme of things on a Reddit post, which is worldwide, to then be sitting in a room with someone five chairs over that served as a giant inspiration for you being there in the first place? It was such a wild coincidence. And there she is. Tessa had used Reddit much the same way Samantha did when she was beginning to explore her gender identity. It was a lot of, OK, this is what's happening to me. What does it mean? You know, I feel this way about X, Y and Z. You know, is this weird? Does this mean I'm trans? Or if I am trans, you know, what identity will be most comfortable for me? You know, how does this play out? What are the effects of hormones or whatever? So there are a lot of questions. Can you describe the trans community on Reddit? it's very, very welcoming, and it's also very diverse. It's probably one of the largest on the internet, which is particularly helpful for me because it helped me realize that, you know, you have sort of the stereotypical narrative for a trans person or a trans woman, especially, you know, out in the media, and it turns out a lot of people don't fall into that, yours truly included. Samantha described that stereotypical narrative about trans women as putting them all somewhere between a Jerry Springer special and CSI crime scene investigation. In other words, creating this idea that trans people live constantly in America's seedy underbelly. Maybe part of the kind of intolerance that leads to unfortunate moments like this. Probably the biggest one was a family wedding that came up fairly early in my transition, right after I had come out publicly. And I was asked not to attend the wedding as Samantha. And that was tough to have to go through that, to feel that rejection. So there are difficulties. But for Samantha and Tessa, trans life is, at long last, well, pretty normal. She's kind of amazed your hair is still straight at this point. I know, right? Yeah, I mean, when did you straighten it? Sunday. Sunday? Wow. I know. This is probably the last time. So much of transition is just in the dark. You know, you're going forward, but your path isn't lit. And seeing those stories and talking to those people that have been there before you help light the way. And part of what I've done with my account there is try to pay it forward. You know, this is just my story. And yeah, it's hard work to get here, but it's possible. And it's very, very possible to be happy through this. Samantha and Laura and Tessa and her wife, Alex, are all friends now. When Samantha and Laura renewed their vows earlier this year, Tessa and Alex were there. And it was Tessa and Alex's wedding album that made Samantha and Laura want to post their vow renewal photos on Reddit, along with a photo from back in 2006. Yeah, remember in the beginning how we mentioned that Samantha and Laura used the same wedding photographer for both of their ceremonies? Well, both sets went up on Reddit. But in the new shots, Samantha got to be a bride. Samantha, what was it like to put on a wedding dress? Oh, it was so beautiful. You know, when you find the dress, here come the tears and all of those feelings. But putting on that dress and just seeing it and just feeling so beautiful and feeling so centered, you know, that's what was missing for so long was that congruence of mind and body. Having that together is just so amazing. It makes life just so much more beautiful. And Samantha says that looking like she felt all this time makes it easier to deal with some of the unexpected challenges of their new life that come up every day. Going out to dinner, for example. So when the two of us get a date night out, it's almost inevitable that when our server comes up to us at the end of the night, they ask separate checks. Because it's not assumed that we're actually there as a couple. Wow. And after being in a visibly heteronormative relationship for so long, that's sort of a shock to have those little experiences come back and remind you, oh, right, things are different. Another difference? An elephant in the room for any couple that stays together through a transition. Sex. But again, Laura and Samantha are almost uncannily calm and adult about this. They say it's all about clear communication and patience, and really a commitment to each other. Samantha identifies as a lesbian now because her attraction to Laura has held steady. And Laura says that she has gone from identifying as straight to pansexual, a more fluid identity when it comes to gender and attraction. This is because she has discovered through the process that she's just as attracted to Samantha as ever. Something that was maybe easier than expected was explaining Samantha transition to their four young sons They told their oldest who now seven with a story What would be like a line from that Uh, I don't know. I can't really say a line from it without, like, deadnaming you, and I don't know how you feel about that. No, don't deadname me, but the old name, for example. Deadnaming. When you use the name that someone went by before transitioning. Probably something to the effect of that name feels like a girl on the inside and is going to start wearing clothes and makeup that look more like a girl. But they're still going to do Legos with you and chase you and tickle you and things like that. So it's basically like, you know, the outside packaging of the person that you love is going to change. But this person is not leaving and is still going to do all the same things with you they always have. And so he's very, our seven-year-old, he's very literal. He's very black and white. And so about three days later, we're putting him to bed and he's in tears. And it's like, oh, my goodness, what's wrong? And he says, well, Mama hasn't chased me yet. And because it was in the story specifically that she was going to chase him, he was worried about it. So, of course, she ran and chased him around the house and he laughed and it was fine. And not to say as he gets older that there won't be more issues that come up. I'm sure there will be in social situations in school and things like that. Our hope is that this whole experience can help him be a more kind and compassionate and understanding person of anyone who's different in any way from the quote unquote normal. It must have been so challenging, though, because you're describing this process of basically like reacquainting yourselves with each other. and then you have to do that with your kids and then you have to do that with your friends and families. Very true. It's definitely, like I said before, yes, it's been a very big process for sure. I mean, I didn't know the phrase deadnamed until just now. Like that, I just learned that, right? Like that must be your whole lives. Yeah, I mean, for me personally, And different people that go through this are different. Some people don't mind their old names. For me, it just represents a lot of that sadness and a lot of that pain that I went through. So if I can avoid it, I prefer to. Sure. But it's not like it didn't happen. You know, I'm not denying who I was or anything like that. And it's especially interesting transitioning at this point in life. I'm 35 years old now. I started transitioning at 33. and you know there's a lot of life that happened before I transitioned and a lot of that life was beautiful the birth of our children and our wedding buying our first home together it was it was so beautiful it would just happen to be tragically sad just below the surface for me and something that's so fantastic about this process is that now Laura knows all of me and it is so freeing to just be able to be me and to not have to worry about this anymore if if I could have done it again the only thing I would have changed is I would have told her sooner what's been funny like is there something that you're able to laugh at um that happens to you now or that is part of your life now that wasn't part of it before this is Laura I think for me it probably is about once a week. We'll just kind of look at each other and I'll say, you just look so beautiful. And she'll be like, oh, thanks. I'm like, it doesn't make any sense, but you just look so beautiful. How did we get here from, I mean, you've seen the picture on but she's just had such an amazing transition that I can't picture the person from before. I can't picture the mannerisms. I can't picture the voice, any of it. It's just all so different. And so I think that sometimes it's just kind of like laughing internally and thinking, huh, I can't believe this is real life, you know? Well, it's funny because there was so much fear and there was so much unknown at the beginning. But now when I look back at those early days, I have to laugh at just how timid I was, like the first time going shopping for clothing. and I couldn't even muster up the energy to grab the clothing off the shelf. I'm gesturing to Laura, pick this one up, pick this one up for me. Yeah, she's like nodding her head like that one over there. Like it looked like we were shoplifting or something, but I mean it's funny to laugh at now just because of how far I've come. We ask Samantha and Laura after everything they've been through and everything they're still figuring out when they thought they might reach some stability. or at least feel like the big bumps in the road of their relationship might be clear. Again, this is a couple that really seems to take it all in stride. Here's Laura. Yeah, I think we're mostly there. Pretty much all aspects of the medical transition are done now. The name changes are official. All the documents are updated. So all of the kind of business side of transition is done. And so I kind of feel like we're at that point now. So now we just have to figure out what our new normal is. And that's what we're working on. For me, probably the biggest joy has just been that the black cloud of burden has been lifted. And finally, I can see true joy in the person that I love the most. Laura and Samantha, thank you very much for talking with us today. Thank you. Thank you. By the way, Samantha and Laura introduced us to a nonprofit called Trans Lifeline. It's an organization dedicated to the well-being of trans people. And they run a hotline for trans people by trans people. That number is 877-565-8860. You can also go to translifeline.org. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR station, in partnership with Reddit. Our show is a dream realized by Jessica Alpert, who, when we ask if she likes the episode we've put together, she says... WTF. Iris Adler is our executive producer, and she makes sure our stories meet the bar of... Mildly interesting. Mix and sound design by John Parati and Paul Vykus, who whenever we go to record in the field with them, they remind us, nature is lit. Our web producer is Megan Kelly, who looks at our attempts at writing web copy and goes, aww. Michael Pope is our advisor at Reddit, and whenever we try to have a serious meeting with him, he's all, f*** you, I'm a toddler. Our interns are James Lindbergh and Josh Luckens. Our theme music is by Squelcher. This week's episode art is called Rainbow 3D Hand. It is from Reddit user TheRainbowFairy. on Reddit. We are endless underscore thread. If you want to contribute art for an upcoming episode or give us a juicy story tip so we can tell it like we did today, you can hit us up there. By the way, I want to give a shout out to Couture, Reddit user, who helped us out with the Ken Bone episode, which we ran last week. If you want to enter the Bone Zone, you should check it out. This show is produced by Josh Swartz, also my producer and co-host, Amory Sievertson. I'm senior producer and host Ben Brock Johnson. I'll let myself out. Thank you. geopolitical tensions. Kurt, I think that your intuition about board dynamics being stressed is exactly the point. I think that in 2025, the biggest problem is board bandwidth, because we ask boards so much. We ask them to deal with those geopolitical tensions, and we ask them to deal with cybersecurity and the climate. And by the way, also the normal things of financial reporting and succession planning and hire the CEO and executive pay. and even if the directors are really really great and they're independent and the expert and they have all the information you need like the perfect dynamics the perfect processes the perfect pre-reading pre-meeting materials you need everything to be perfect just in order for you to fit all those huge issues into one agenda find the full episode by searching for is business broken wherever you get your podcasts and learn more about the mayrotra institute for business markets and society at ibms.bu.edu.