I want people to see what you see right now. I don't want them to know what happened to me alone over those three or four years. I'm telling veterans my story now. I think a lot of young people have gotten to believe the BS that's out there. If you think about this message being proliferated again and again and again, you start to believe it yourself. We want to extend a heartfelt thank you to our listeners. Because of your incredible support, we're out of time has reached number one on Apple's Mental Health Podcast chart, number two on the Health and Fitness chart, and number 26 overall. We couldn't have done this without you. Thank you for being part of this journey with us. If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. Please, we're out of time. Today I'm joined by Kevin Schmiegel, founder of Zero Mills, an organization focused on supporting veterans addressing critical issues like homelessness and access to resources. Kevin, thanks for being here today. And thank you for having me. Appreciate it, Rich. And it's my pleasure, Pam. Tell us a bit about your background and what led you to start Zero Mills. Well, I go back to the time I was a Marine. I grew up in a big Catholic family. My dad was a Marine. My mom was always called to serve too. She really, as much as my dad taught me the value of service she did too. So I got a scholarship to a small Jesuit university in Massachusetts called the College of the Holy Cross and got my commission in the United States Marine Corps in 1989. And I served from 1989, from the first Gulf War, all the way through the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I served 20 years as a United States Marine and retired in 2009. I deployed to more than 50 countries in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Spent 1,000 nights away from my kids. And I found purpose. I found my tribe. Let me ask you, what does that feel like to be away from your children for so long? It's hard, but they also understood the same fundamental principle that my parents taught me that service is important. And that we are all called to serve in different ways. So I think for them, it was just as much of a sacrifice. And listen, it's easy for the service member when they are deployed because they are on a mission and they're focused on that mission. I think a lot of times people don't understand that the family serves to the military spouses, the kids that are left back in the states or all over the world. And if there are husbands or spouses or fathers and mothers deploy, they're the ones that are sacrificing too. Yeah, especially when they're young. Were you held were you held were the kids when you were in Iraq? From the time they were born in 1995 to the time I retired in 2009. My oldest was 14, then 13, and the youngest one was nine. I always tell people that my oldest son who moved six times in 11 years, part of the reason I retired from the military in 2009 was the realization that he would be starting high school. It wasn't like I wanted to leave the Marine Corps. I felt like it was more important given all the things that my three sons went through to give them an opportunity to be stable as they entered high school. That was the biggest reason I left the Marine Corps in 2009. And why you never gave it up because you still love it. And that's why you're of service all the time. And that's why I continue to serve. When I left the military in 2009, I had a very high level job. I was the chief of staff, the US Chamber of Commerce in Washington, DC. I did that for two years. And just like I was an aide to camp for a four star general who was the NATO and US European commander. And I worked on the peace process in the Middle East when he was the special envoy under Bush. I had this very high level job for two years where I traveled around the country, around the world, met with Fortune 500 CEOs. And when I was asked what I wanted to do next by Tom Donney who was the president of the Chamber. I wanted to find my way back to service. I saw this problem that existed when I was in the Marine Corps. A lot of young people who I spoke to about their transition shared with me that they didn't know what they wanted to do next. When I was the chief of staff of the Chamber meeting with these CEOs, they would say they loved to hire veterans. In 2011, so two years after I transitioned, when Tom Donney who asked that question, I put those two things together. Isn't that amazing though? That's a God shot. Right. Right. I mean, you're in the Chamber of Commerce so you're surrounded by business and you're hearing all this stuff. And you just came from a place where you know that veterans are transitioning and having a difficult time and you saw that need and you're filling it. Right. And not only that, at the time in 2011, unemployment for veterans was 10% nationally. For veterans under the age of 24, it was 30%. And here we are in the middle of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we have young men and women coming back not knowing what they were going to do next and employers who needed a talent not hiring them. Well, that one thing led to the next. I ran two other national nonprofits. And then about three and a half years ago, I saw a problem that I thought needed to be addressed to. Much like when I started hiring our heroes in 2011, we created a military friendly movement. If you fast forward to 2022 unemployment for veterans is at an all time low. There's a massive skills gap in America, 10.5 million until jobs, but people are still talking about veterans as if they're broken. And they're not providing value in the workforce. When the truth is veteran unemployment has been lower than civilian unemployment for the last 10 years. So what I saw were a confluence of nonprofits across the country painting this narrative, a broken veteran narrative, when I recognize there are challenges. So why are they doing that just to raise money for their non-profit? Absolutely. Like sympathy and pity sells. The sympathy. The sympathy. It's between the syphilis and the dictionary. Well, the truth is, the truth is, the vast majority of us are thriving. The result of our service and not in spite of it. So we saw this problem, the broken veteran narrative. And it's influencing young people right now. The propensity for young people to serve in our military is at an all time low. In the history of the all volunteer force at 9%, 62% of young people in America think that every service member leaving the military, every veteran will have some form of a psychological disorder. So all of this... So what is the correct stats on that? How many people come back with a mental health disorder? Well, it's not 62%. And listen, these things... I don't want you to get these things. I don't know the exact number. And I don't think anyone knows the exact number. And I agree. But if it's not 62%, give me your best guess, based on your expertise. Well, if I look at a scale of people who are veterans in society in the workforce, and the way I talk about it is 90% of us are doing okay or thriving, it's the 5% or 10% that we have to lift up, our brothers and sisters who are struggling. And what I'm saying is I had my own struggles too. Do you know how beautiful that is? How you just said that? It's like, that's just no man left behind. That's just what you guys were taught. That's just part of your DNA. Well, that is who we are. And listen, the realization is when I was in the military, when I was a United States Marine, it was the most thriving time in my life, because I had 5 things. So this is what zero mills is focused on. When we were in the military, my brother, Paul Kuchinata, who I've known for 20 years, the co-founder of zero mills and I were thriving, we've known each other for 30 years, because we had 5 things. We had meaningful employment. We had a sense of purpose in our work through service. We had a connected community of tribe, the Marine Corps is a tribe, our brothers and sisters. We took care of our health and wellbeing, name another employer in America that gives you an hour to an hour and a half every day to take care of your physical health, which leads to good mental health. And we were filling our kit bags up. So we were saying in the Marine Corps, when you find something good, you laminate it, you put it in your kit bag and you take it to the field. Those are the things that we need in our life to constantly seek self improvement, education, training, certification, being a mentor, being a mentee. Our company is focused on giving every veteran what they need to thrive outside of service. As soon as they transition, we shouldn't be saying you're entitled to be a veteran. We earn the title, soldier, sailor, marine, airman, guardian, sentinel. We must earn the title of veteran. And we must seek out these 5 things in our lives because we had them in the military. People who are struggling, whether it's when they come out of the military or later in their lives, in transition, in careers, or moving houses, or in divorces, all these things. They still need to focus on these 5 things. And everyone wants to talk about the employment piece. A job is not the only thing we have in our lives. We need those other 4 things to reach. What you're exactly right. You're exactly right on all 5 pillars of what you need for support and thriving. Would it have been some of the most rewarding moments with zero meals? Well, I want to just say one thing. We're not saying that, look at us, we're thriving. Both my business partner and I were at times where we were barely surviving too. And we don't want another veteran to go through the same thing. This is through experience. So after I've founded and led hiring our heroes for three years, raising $40 million, some 40 massive companies in America, and created a military thriving movement, that program has now helped a million veterans find meaningful employment, a million veterans and military spouses across the country. You helped a million people find out through that program. I led it for three years, it still exists. Like hiring our heroes. It's the biggest employment program for veterans and spouses in the country. Is this something you can donate to? Yes, of course. Most of the money is they get. Right here, tell the viewers how they can donate to this. This is largely driven by corporate giving. So companies are largely supporting it. And people can get involved as volunteers as well too. That employment problem that existed then doesn't exist at the same level now. But the important point I wanted to make is when I left hiring our heroes, I left because I was working 80 hours a week. I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. My health wasn't good. So I left that organization, even though I loved it, to go on and take care of myself. But I didn't realize at the time it was the worst possible decision I could have made because for six months I spiraled. And guess why? I lost my sense of purpose. I lost my tribe. I wasn't taking care of my health physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And I spiraled for six months and fell into a deep depression that lasted years. Until I recognized that I needed to go back and serve. And I'll tell you a story because I know you could have done. You could have stayed there and exercised to work life balance. So you didn't have to give up anything to get something else. Yeah, until a young person who's 23 years old, a sergeant comes up to you in Chicago and said, Sir, you changed my life today. I got a job. When someone does that, they don't realize they changed your life too. So you're driven by something that is inescapable. You're driven by that change that you're making. And yeah, you have to realize the signs. So I coach young leaders who are nonprofit leaders, amazing veterans and military spouses across the country. And I tell them the same thing. You're no good to anyone if you don't take care of yourself to make the change that you want to make. What's the single biggest barrier that's face when transitioning from combat to career? I think the biggest challenge they face is not believing in themselves the way they should. The fact is, if you look back to 2011, when unemployment was 10%, it's only 3%. Now the skills gap in 2011 was 3.5 million jobs in America. It's 10.5 million veterans transitioning service members who are leaving the battlefield are the most equipped to serve in this workforce. They're the best employees. They're the best business owners. They're the best civic assets. So you can't say these guys are the greatest fighters in the world. And with the greatest military in the world and then all of a sudden they get into the public sphere and their civilians and their trash. It doesn't, it's not congruent. They're not congruent thoughts. No, and it is this narrative that puts these thoughts in their heads. They just got out of their tribe, their purpose, yada, yada, yada. They've got the best time of their lives. Okay, they shouldn't have low self esteem when they're walking into the public sector. Okay, the private sector. What's going on here? Well, if you think about what military friendly employers say, it's almost as if they're implying they're doing you a favor by giving you a job. If you think about talking about the individual, the individual service person. Right. Why would he feel it creates these perceptions in their own mind that they're not worthy of these opportunities. It puts them in a position where if for this is pervasive, they hear over and over again in the public's eye that they are broken, that they are challenged, that they are unemployed at higher rates in the civilians when it's not true. So I see the same look on their faces as I did in 2011 when they were coming in an unemployment was 10%. And they did have something to worry about because there was a stigma. All of that is gone. So what I say to them is don't settle. If an employer says they're military friendly, say what does that mean? What are you doing to help me thrive? Not just in the workplace, but in society. What are you doing to work with other nonprofits that give me a sense of purpose through service? Allow me to connect with my tribe, take care of my health, fill my kit bag up. But those things I need to constantly seek self improvement. Employers can invest in that. And you know what? There are 45,000 military and veteran connected nonprofits in this country. A vast majority of us, a vast majority of them are saying veterans are broken. So what I'm encouraging them to do is invest in strategies that actually make them money. But give me an example. What would that look like for me? I want it. Listen, I'm all about supporting my employees. Okay. My business isn't a business. It's a people. I have five employees and we're thriving. You're thriving. Because we have these five things. Okay. But you have those five things as an officer. No, I have those five things as the CEO of Zero Mills and my four employees have the same things. Because you were an officer in the military. No, because I've created a culture where all of my employees and myself have a sense of purpose. Have a tribe or connected to a community. We're taking care of our health. And we're filling our kit bags up with education training certification and being mentors and being mentees. I think all of this is fantastic. What I'm trying to get to is clarity. Because clarity is power, right? If we want to change the perception of how people are looked at in the hiring sphere, let's just let's figure out exactly what these veterans should. What the veterans need to thrive and what the employers need to do in order to do that. Because I'm not saying I was lazy with my words. It sounds like a pain in the ass. I know. But a lot of things in life sound like a pain in the ass. And then they're critical and you get blessing upon blessing upon blessing for doing it. Right. And I'm thinking that this is one of those things. So for an employer to adopt this culture, they bring a veteran into their company. So typically inside a company, you have an affinity group. So veterans that are connected in the company. So it's basically what's going on here is a lot of these companies will hire veterans and then have them be good well ambassadors for the company. Right. They're just giving them opportunities by funding a nonprofit that allows them to volunteer in the community at a school to be a coach, a soldier coach. That's fantastic. To take care of their health with an organization like Team Red, White and Blue to do disaster relief operations with Team Rubicon. This sounds exactly what it sounds exactly like the kind of program I'd be running. Right. And if they do that, if they invest in that strategy and they shout it from the rooftops that they're doing for the veterans, they're going to attract them and keep them. So they lower recruiting and retention cost and they drive consumer behaviors too. All right. What's the most overlooked skill veterans bring to civilian companies? I think it's leadership, 100% leadership. They learn how to manage complex organizations and they have incredible technical skills at the military invest in, but the truth is leadership and management. Do you know what my experience is as an employer, employing these guys, self starters, entrepreneurs, they're self starters. They don't need to be told, okay, they do whatever is necessary. Even if it's not in their job description without complaint, like it was, well, it was there. Of course, I was going to pick that up. Of course, I was going to order that thing. Of course, I was going to write, I mean, always. That's their get. I mean, that's a huge gift. Even just work ethic and showing up to work on time. I mean, always. And then early, you were early, you were half hour early. That's right. If you're not 10 minutes earlier, 10 minutes later, I just go if you're not, if you're not early or late, that's right. Got it. Always. Even the homeless encampments that veterans are in are different than other encampments because they're buttoned up. They're like, they're like a military locker. Have you ever noticed that? Yeah, they're orderly. Yeah. Make sure are. All right. You and I agree that nothing beats the mental health benefits of having a job. In your experience, what happens to a veteran's mental health when they're unemployed for too long? Yeah. Again, seeing this going back 14 years, I think they lose their identity. We have a very purpose driven life in the military. And I think when you step off and you have faced with that challenge at any point in your life, then meaningful employment gives you dignity. And it is a big part of our identity. I truly believe that it shouldn't be the only part of your identity based on my experience. No, but if you don't have a job, if you don't have a job, okay, you're going to have mental issues because that's the most esteemable thing you can do is work to be self-supporting. Yes. And I'll also tell you, when I left that organization hiring our heroes because I needed to take care of my health and I spiraled and I was depressed, I actually did get a job back with the US Chamber of Commerce. And I was a very successful fundraiser and different former fashion for the Chamber. I had a better job, a bigger title. I was making a lot more money and I was working half the time. But then I really did spiral because I didn't have those other things that really meant something to me. Why didn't you do something volunteer work? So if you did some volunteer work that you were passionate about, you could have kept that other job. Well, exactly. And that's what I'm encouraging employers to do because once you're in that rabbit hole, it's hard to get out of. And it took another veteran, a Vietnam veteran who saw me in a crowded space and could see the affect in my face that I was struggling to say, well, why don't you just consider going back to nonprofit work, which is what I did. And I immediately, immediately came out of that hole. What do you do when you come across a veteran or their immediate family members who are abusing drugs or alcohol? Well, since I was in that position too, I was self-medicating when I was depressed and what are you using? Just alcohol. I didn't know not sleeping. Typical things. I keep on going back to my North Star, which is purpose. They're homeless. They're without jobs. It's the most dehumanizing thing in the world. One day a week of therapy doesn't fix that. A support group doesn't fix that. You know what fix is that? You stop doing drugs and alcohol so you're not in harm's way. Big thing now, man. 40% of the military members and veterans that come in here swearing, they're not on... Yeah, so they can die. So we're at a time now on this thing. They have to be sent to treatment. All these non-profits should know. Not only that, but the VA's are over-booked. I mean, you have to wait for beds. You're right. We're at a time on a lot of these issues. So there's two ways of looking at it. People talk about getting upstream all the time. So how do you get to a young service member that's right out of boot camp? And they're not having any issues at all. All the way to the time they transition. If they serve for four years, eight years, 12 years, how do we get ahead of the problem? And we make them recognize these five things they have when they're in the military and to embrace those things. You cut the problem off at the end. The reality is, through 20 years of war, the global war on terror, places like Iraq and Afghanistan and people come back broken both visibly and invisibly. Of course, there's going to be challenges down the road. But I will tell you this, Rich, the non-profits that we work with, soldiers to sidelines, Travis Manion Foundation, the mission continues, Team Rubicon, Team Red, White and Blue, where Blue run to remember. No one's going downstream. Again, better is better. In what universe is good, good enough? Okay, you take these people and you put them with these, with these well-meaning, doing real good work, non-profits. Okay, what I'm offering is to have therapists or my addiction research fellow literally go down to these places and train up therapists and put in modalities and things that are shown to be effective. But what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to give the best treatment protocol in the world to veterans and the masses. That's why I'm treating all these veterans. That's why at the end of next year I'm going to be treating a thousand veterans a month. Right. So what I'm saying is there's a group of people that are at a point of crisis that you want access to. If you want to address the problem that I want access to treatment, right? And I don't care if it's with me or anybody. I just care that I train these people. I just care that they're getting the best treatment in the world. Right. Because they are the people who deserve it. And I want the same things. And what I'm saying is we can reduce that number by looking before, but also looking after. So what I would love to do with you is connect you with nonprofits where there is a gigantic pool of people that were in the middle of this crisis point, whether it be addiction, whether it be struggling from depression and other mental health issues, whatever those reasons, but no one is looking at this, this back end here after they have gotten out of it. No one's studying those organizations that I named there are tens of thousands of men and women walking among those organizations serving, finding purpose, finding their connection with their tribe, taking care of their health. No one's asking them when they were in this pit of despair, what it was they got them out of it. Everyone's studying the point of crisis. We're saying we need to get ahead of it when the answer lies in me, the answer lies in people like me that were in that state and found their purpose again, found their tribe. Through the five pillars, right. And through the five pillars, which all of these organizations that I mentioned are not testifying before Congress are not speaking publicly because they're busy showing veterans what they need to thrive. All I'm saying is I want to address the same thing you're want to address, but no one's looking at what has what got us through this rather than how can we identify on the front end how to take care of the problem that you're having. It just hit me and I know I'm slow. Okay, but the problem you're having is the narrative that all veterans are broken, right, is being perpetuated by nonprofits generating who need to generate money for their nonprofits or businesses that need hold on. You on the other hand are creating a true message, which is we're not broken, we're actually thriving only five to 10% of us are actually struggling and you know, this is speed bump it ain't a death sentence so we can get we can get past this thing. Okay, is that that's exactly right and I want to shine a spot, but I just want to tell you it's like it's like on the internet, right. I can write something really sweet and 100 people like it and then I could write something just socialatious, right, and then you got thousands of people, you know, going back and forth. So I feel like this is like the trap that you're in. I know what I'm up against, but I'm not going to give up. Now let me ask you a question, why is it so important for you to let the world know, okay, that veterans aren't broken because I was myself and I don't let that to find me. I want people to see what you see right now. I don't want them to know what happened to me alone over those three or four years. I'm telling veterans my story now, but I think I think a lot of young people have gotten to believe the BS that's out there. If you think about this message being proliferated again and again and again, you start to believe it yourself. So the people who are struggling sometimes maybe they accept that when they should hear from people like me who have gotten on the other side of it. But that's why treatment is so important. Because when you come in, okay, to treatment that lie that you were told that you're broken is pulled on. It's exposed as a lie, okay, because it's or shit, okay, and it's not true. And with good therapy, now you walk into the world, it doesn't matter what the noise is or what the perception is or anything. It doesn't matter because you now are equipped, okay, to go out into the world and not just exist, but to actually thrive in the world. There's nothing better than top notch treatment. And it doesn't matter if it's for alcohol or drugs or mental health or mental issues. It does not matter, okay, it's all treated the same way. And I guess I should be clear that I did get the treatment that I needed to get better. And I also had a soulmate, a caregiver who helped me through it too. And you had a built-in reason though to be successful and to pull out of it and everything because you have five kids. So it wasn't like you were, you know, you had a wife and you were the dad. So you're a Marine, pull your butcher. Let's get this thing handled on the dad now. I just don't want people to think that I'm saying this is easy. I'm not saying it is an easy and I'm not discounting challenges that people have. What I'm trying to do is find the balance and get people to see that we are veterans, we served and we are thriving as a result of our service and not in spite of it. The reality is that message is not being said enough. Everyone's focused on the broken side and I think we just have to do a better job of finding balance in the conversation. And the truth is my business partner who I've known for 30 years, when he was barely surviving, I was thriving. When I was barely surviving, he was thriving. And we lifted each other up. Everyone sees these logos or pictures of a veteran being carried on another veteran shoulder or a service member carrying someone. I don't see the person on top as broken. I see the person on top as the person that's lifting the person who's holding them up because if we support one another in life, if we think about the strength that we get by taking care of other people that are barely surviving. Then we get strength from them. I don't see these things as separate. I see our community as the strongest, most courageous, most resilient community in the world. You got anything you're working on right now? What's next? Yes, so we're really focused on coming to communities, regions of the country like Southern California where you're doing incredible work where there's all these organizations into Sparrow things going on. And creating the first military thriving region of the country by connecting all the dots. All the government agencies, all the nonprofits, all the employers, all the people who want to not only solve the problems that people have, but shine a bright shining light on how veterans and their families can contribute to the workplace and society in those regions. So our goal, our mission is to create military thriving cultures and communities, environments that empower veterans, military spouses and their families as catalysts of growth, as catalysts of change, as catalysts of impact to the local level. So where I want people to know is we're going to go to a place like Southern California and we're going to bring this idea and get people to work together. The problem that we have is so many people are doing things on their own because they don't want to collaborate and they compete. That's really our focus is where can we model a military thrive? That's the hardest thing when you've got all these, all the duplicity of all of these non-profits and they compete instead of collaborate. That drives me nuts. This is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life is trying to get people to work together to achieve a greater impact. It never happens because they're also self-interested. But you know what? I've done it before. You just create a win-win-win scenario. That's the only way because the truth is people inherently... It's their baby though. It's their baby. So they have this vision, they started this thing. And so to get their head around, no, one plus one equals three is just too much. It's leaders like you who are embracing our community and reaching your arms out to us and asking us to be included. So one of the solutions in working here in Southern California is to work with you to shine a spotlight on all the non-profits. And for you at the end of these sessions to encourage them to work together. So my approach is to connect with people like you who are outside of our ecosystem just like you're trying to connect with us. If I had to describe my life's work, it's to bridge the civilian military divide to create understanding and empathy versus sympathy and pity. Actually, I'm just pissed quite frankly that I'm not dealing with this at a greater level. Well, we're going to deal with it together at a greater level because I can help you and you can help me. And that's what collaboration is. But the only thing I care about is treating a thousand veterans a month so that I can feel finally like I've done something. And you know what I want to do? I want those thousand veterans to be connected to the thousands and thousands more here that are thriving. So we continue to lift them up. Here's what I propose. Okay. I think that I think now that I've heard this, what I've learned on this show is that we need to be able to work in concert. The treatment center has to work with someone like you to make certain that there is a job waiting or interview or interviews waiting right when you walk out so that there's no dead time. And you walk out of treatment if you don't know where you're supposed to be. You're in a bad neighborhood. So I want you to immediately into a jobs seeking program if you don't have one set up. Do you guys ever get from treatment centers who are treating veterans? Do you ever get sent to you to place? They get sent to all the organizations we work with is the point I'm making. We're an integrator and a collaborator. So we work with hundreds of nonprofits nationally and locally. So what I would love to talk about is how do you connect people from treatment to meaningful employment and to the other things that these nonprofits provide that the employers on benefits, other benefits and other things they need to thrive. Like there are multiple nonprofits right here in Los Angeles County that people are coming out of treatment. Yes, we need to find them a job. So there's only to find eight hours of their day. What are they doing the community to serve? What are they doing to find that tribe? So there are organizations that are out there that can connect them. Absolutely. But job number one is to be able to eat. And so you know what I mean? Like we talked about the dignity of that's the most important thing. You know, like the movie Dave and we have everybody works on Mondays. Yeah. And we have that. I started a nonprofit because I realized that what I what I also realize is that's not the only thing. So I 100% agree. It's always been a passion among I place dozens dozens of veterans and military spouses every month into meaningful employment. Man, you're a genuine hero Kevin Chmiegel. Thank you. I appreciate and I appreciate what you're doing. You're doing it, man. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thanks. I need you to be one saver. Look into that camera and say see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. You said it.
