Ep 1260 | Jase, Missy & Kasey Van Norman Have a Heavy Conversation About Cheating, Shame & True Healing

I am on a shame. What about you? Why are we we're not speaking? But we always just say that You came in the door to speak. I like that because people are we rolling? Yeah Welcome down the shame no look out this should be named I have the title because whoever's doing these titles We need to talk yeah, so I have one okay. This is unashamed After dark This is the first Hi, guess we've ever done at twilight. It is that is true. Hey, I Feel like we should use some music we're doing this very late in the day So we got a guest coming on a little bit later, so we're just kind of setting them up and it's not just a guest These are good friends of ours. Mm-hmm They changed our lives. They do that's good. They've They made our lives better, which is true So you were you were talking as we came in Jason about that married couples should have more public disputes because people Ak Prima proper in the public I have a thin fight you think you say they fight more behind the scenes Here's what I think happens. I can't wait the way our Sunday morning Worship works in America. Yeah, here's here's the scene The husband he's on can't find my shoes and fight Well, you left him wherever and you know all this is going on your your at your house You're going to worship the Lord God almighty But everybody's tasty and there's that And so then you get in the car you got the kids holler. Hey shut up back there. You want to spank it? I'll tell you well What are we gonna eat after I don't know? Why don't I make all the decisions and then as soon as you get out of that door and walk in people like hey? How are you great wondrous I'm having the time of my life That is good all the time. I have a story about that because and hi. I'm back Welcome back, is he you're such a part of the table now that we don't even feel like we have to introduce you So so growing up aren't when we were raising our kids Those stories when they would talk about that from the pulpit about how people were fighting out every Sunday morning And now you're here at church and everyone's getting along and putting on their face We never rode together because I was there an hour hour and a half early for worship practice So for 25 years we never rode together. He never saw me Which I found to be one of the best secrets of that mayor guess what? Because see when the cars change my marriage I need to write that book when the preachers out there pounding. I was like not me not today I was listening to collective soul Shine so I have a little I have a little story actually about that so a few weeks ago Jace was asked to speak at our local celebrate recovery and I was asked to be on the worship team that morning I mean, I'm sorry that evening. I don't know that that was celebrate When Jace told the story about his being and he never mentioned you've been on the praising Which I find you did you know I was on the first For one year the first praise band team at WFR Because I wanted them to have pastoral support and you know, I was on the pastors at that time so but you can't sing I know That was the downside to it, but but luckily nobody else could either Actually, tree But anyway, and I can't say that I was on the team This is reminding me of that Barney Griffith and the you know you want That's what and that's what I did when I say in jace I just they kept getting me lower and lower and then I realized they never have my My god But the musical musical director every time something would be saved he'd say but Andy he can't see that's why I said that so just so you know Defend the context Keith Powell was our leader. Oh, wow. So there you go. Remember this is 20 years ago We were just trying to help people off the drugs and we didn't want to hurt you On the celebrate recovery. Yeah, I got you Not in debbip. Oh, yeah, no, a lot lags on Friday night. Yeah, that's why I'm saying I got you out Okay, so actually I was there also while jace was speaking that night and we had little man with us and so we After what course he was great. We had a bag full of stuff for him to do he was great that place was rocking They are fantastic. They were worshipping it. It was amazing. I need that in my blood ever like shot into my veins Because these folks are excited that they have found price. Yes, and so it was refreshing. It was great Jace did a wonderful job speaking Fantastically wonderful job. This is where you did the time petty song. No, he just how he talked about it Oh, yeah, he played it. Yeah, but then they took over the song. Yeah, it was like they took over your lesson Yeah, they sing louder at the time Don't back down that we did in the actual worship songs Yeah, I love control of the audience. Go ahead. So after it was over they helped us out We had little man of course, and so they helped us out. We were in two different vehicles Because I got there early to practice So I put little man in the car seat and Jace takes off so we start going and little man says to me Where's J. Rock? And I said he's in his truck What where where's his truck? I said it's up ahead. He already left Well, why is it J. Rock in the car not got to realizing Little man does not know the life that our children had so our children Either read with me most of the time sometimes with Jace when they were older, but little man we are always together Yeah, he rides with us everywhere we go and so for him to realize that there's only one of us in the car and one of us is in a different truck Going somewhere else. He was just kind of like I don't understand what's happening right here So it's a it was very different for us. I pointed that out when I got home to J. So I thought This is crazy. We're the same people, but now we're raising or helping to raise a child in a completely different environment Which says something right about parenting a lot of times later in life for whatever reason maybe you have a Child that's you know younger than the rest, but you know jet when jet describes his relationship with mom and dad Especially dad. It's completely different from my experience Like he'll talk about this man. He knows this very different from the man that I grew up with how he needed the hard years It's a good easy I got He said I think I was a little too soft. Don't know jippy But in dad's defense there were two prodicles and it was the oldest and the youngest So it's be and jet and we had two totally different experiences and I think we probably had a prodicle experience for two totally different reasons Yeah, but we both did which is kind of ironic as it worked out But you're right, so if you had actually had a child super late in life after Mia This would have been the experience for all right, so we've we've talked enough time to bring our guest home because I'm super excited By that so we're gonna take a break when we come back missy and j's will introduce our guest today So at least and I've started back on the road most of Our events are centered around pro life. That's why it's so important to us on this podcast because it impacts us and Here's a story about a woman named Evie. She never imagined she would become pregnant Doctors told her it wasn't possible. 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That's preborn.com slash unashamed So welcome back to unashamed we have our guest missy want to introduce our guest. Yes, I'm so excited Okay, so Casey van Norman. She's kind of a big deal and She's amazing and one of my favorite people on planet earth Actually, wow, how long have you actually been friends? 2015 15 15. Yeah, okay. We went on a speaker trip with compassion Nicaragua. Yes before we met Karina We were two hours from Karina's house and didn't know it and what I love about our friendship is we have been pretty intentional At least once every year to see each other you miss last year and I miss last year But it's okay. You're forget but we made it At this year we sit in the same spot because the boys go duck hunting my husband and my son It's like they cannot wait for the weekend once a year they get to go duck hunting with Jason my son 17 and All in jace's got him all into the ducks. We got Oh, well somebody needed to warn me. I mean I've watched Jason missy a little bit But for Christmas three huge boxes show up and I'm like what is this is Christmas present? It's all he asked for nothing else. He unwraps one subuncha ducks are called decoys Are we shipping this? He's so excited All I see are a bunch of ducks in my house now, Jason everywhere tripping over it. See what it be cause weren't they weren't okay See I mean she's not they were ducks Oh And they'd be harder tenderizing They're so pretty too Decoys are so pretty on my cow are you shooting these are so pretty? Yeah the green hats? Who's got the green head? Yeah, what duck has the green head? That's a mallard That's a mallard and look it was your son's goal to shoot a mallard. We went this morning. There we are And we're gonna ask about the hunt. Did you go to oh? I love our response last night missy said are you going to case and she went Which is what missy? I want to sit in the pajamas with missy for hours on end And that is exactly they left us this morning. We were in our pajamas on the couch. They walked in at noon They said what have you been doing we've been doing this right here. Yeah, we have a year to download No, we can so you're not into the idea of wearing four layers of clothes putting face paint all over your face. I'm a minipal No one in their right mind puts on four layers of clothes Let me tell you It's hot today, but normally in general funny conversation last night we were up before I tell you about the duck She she asked me something about if I had ever done a sauna And I didn't know what that was I had to google it make conversation which I did by the way This is what else on the podcast and look what I looked at these images. I thought they took those old foam boots And made use of it because it looked like an old foam But you know when you had to do pay a quarter or a dime or well I said was baby seen You've seen shows where men come in with the towels wrapped around their waist and they sit down They're like oh, they're sweating and then what did you say can I say this? I said I don't go into sweaty rooms with naked man for any reason Now look if you want to America, if you ever went to a Turkish prison Yeah, if you want to that's fine. It's just not it's not in my DNA Missy you're not helping me with this image right now. Sonas have you know, they're they're never now It's not full of no botox and no sauna What I decided and then I gave them a withering barrage of how you sweat in the wilderness which I did today I walked two miles we had knocked down a couple of birds which shows you now We had we had a moment today And look we're because there was low expectations on them can't be any lower Yeah, we have no water and we have no ducts right those are two essential things you need for ducts I know you don't know much about it. They don't have any water You're like this is almost like hunting ducks in the Chick-fil-A parking lot. Yeah, you're luck Hey, come over here. So we go down there. It's 70 something degrees this morning The fog was so thick. Yeah, I barely made it down there. I mean we I it was not visible We get out there and I thought she mentioned this on us because sweat was pouring And they're very they're very you know how women look when they cry and they have that stuff on their eyes What does it come mascara mascara wow? I had my face man look and it was dripping today It looked like I was crying because I was sweating so much and guess what happened The Lord said Here you go, Jace the Van Norman's earned town this young man has found his love for duck cutting that you named him like Yes, like a body of water. Yes, and we went out there and killed double digit numbers four mowers Young man. He's a pretty good shot if you didn't know they have green heads. Oh, I know We took pictures we had the green heads We're all acting like I mean it was it was he had told me that he had been saving this for you guys And there was only 20 ducks on the whole property. Yes, what they kill most of us. Yeah, we only saw 20 There was 20 ducks we we wiped out that whole colony, but guess what? There are millions of ducks and but that little pocket. They're no longer with us. We call that the Van Norman Yes, the fact that they wound up Where we were tells you how confused they were and how lost they were and they were just trying to find a place of no regret and we Provided that form today. Well, there's another reason why we don't have a sauna and it's a reason what what I told you one year You never let me forget because how do I sweat ugly? Don't sweat pretty I don't listen I don't sweat pretty The way she said it just has burned into my words All this this on a shame by the way cases of counselors she brings this out in people. That's the deal So we invited you here because you do a wonderful ministry y'all took over town You're married look and I have to confess this. I've never confessed this when you first introduced your husband You said and here's the governor And I thought this guy's the governor of Texas. I thought he was much older So then I just the same for years that he was some sort of politician at some point of his life But it's not true. So do you want to tell us why you calling the governor? Well that was his college nickname Because he never met a stranger. He never met a stranger He says just cowboy Texas cowboy as they come but our very first date All right, he the I the the Rosa I see it's February We're not supposed to be out, but of course Justin Van Norman called and I said yes because he's the governor Yeah, and you gotta put that in the governor. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I got it So I said yes, we go we go to a place called readers. It's not there anymore in Acadotus. We're from East Texas So you know the Really not far from Louisiana. Yeah, very close. We're right on the line and Nakato just grew up and We go to readers And we have a great conversation. We're just catching up and of course we do the whole thing with each other where you know We're not gonna really date. We're not interested in dating. So let's just Make the terms very clear. We're not gonna have a relationship. I write like two months later. We're I love you but I You know expect that he's gonna drop me off and maybe try to sneak a kiss or something like that So he drops me off and he's got his he is So cute. I mean just the cutest thing is cowboy boots his Wrangler starch to a tee and you know This Wranglers when you take him off you can't move them His polo shirt from probably still wearing it from the seventh grade, you know plaid shirt and he drops me off and he walks me up to the front door and um Literally like doesn't touch me at all and just walks me straight up and he goes well. Thank you, ma'am Just almost like you just serve the surgery queen, right? I mean I am stunned. I am like I mean we're grown adult Sworn our twenties here and I am I am like looking at this guy like did he just thank you, ma'am? Yeah at the end of a date so he turns around and starts to walk away and I go well Um, I guess I expected a hug or something and he looked turned around and he goes Don't Oh It was the my I was I was done. I was totally his Most endearing moment truly that's when you know you got it Don't I became like I don't even know how to describe it our guards completely came down with each other And we were just able to connect immediately and you know that's kind of rare to do that especially when you're I mean Famous and I guess you know we're in the middle of duck dynasty and my guard is always up by this point by 2015, but it just came down with her with you and I realized we have the same mindset we're a lot of like even though our past are completely the opposite We are a lot alike in the way that we think about other people in the way that we love the Lord and so I um she asked me she was writing a book she is a talented and accomplished speaker and writer So this is not just some rando I'm telling you she is very accomplished. She spoke for extraordinary women conferences for years and is amazing She's amazing so um I really relied on her a lot for Support in my life for things that we were going through even with the fame and We have talked about on here When we had the weekend of counseling when we did the eight weeks of counseling in a day and a half yeah Wala Yeah, with our family. This was your guide this was kacy did it and so she and her with her godly wisdom and ultimate knowledge of how to transform Problems in a family to glorify the Lord and get them back on track and glorify the Lord She did that in a day and a half with our family and set us on a brand new trajectory in our family And I have her to think and so she's amazing. I can say that you know, just because of what of what you did hands on and So I would like I would love for you to be able to share a little bit about your past in your story because Your book Nothing wasted I have given all of my copies away once and you resupplied me and I gave them all the way again The last one was for me because she's on the trip this weekend and she took it Because she adores you. Well, Mia has my heart. She has my heart and she's so awesome too She reaches out in text and we still talk and she checks on me and So I don't know about you, but new years usually bring in the idea of warning new challenges In your life and certainly for me last year's new year brought me into the idea that I needed to lose some weight And that's not always easy when you get my age 60 years old by thin I've tried all the different diets keto paleo weight watchers intermittent fasting I went through the same drill and always gained the weight back and usually I just said I didn't have the right willpower The right discipline, but the truth is it was never really about willpower to begin with There's only one thing that determines whether your body burns fat or stores it and if you don't fix that your diet is going to fail It's about metabolism at PhD weight loss they've identified that and they build a plan that works with your body and not against it And I'm living proof because here's a picture of me at the beginning of 2025 here I am now you see I've lost 80 pounds feeling great I'm off of most of my meds. I don't use my CPAP anymore much more active able to do a lot more So if you call now, they'll give you two free weeks in the program and they pay for your food So you can finally see real results without more trial and error If you're done with yo-yo dieting and won't clarity call PhD weight loss now and mention ow No more guessing just answers call 864 64 for 1900 and say ow that's 864 64 for 1900 or visit my PhD weight loss dot com You know you guys Made it so easy and I told them you know, we don't have to talk about the therapy thing. This is this can be a very this is private and I know therapy has a stigma sometimes in the church and I think you know I grew up in the 80s and this was not something my grandparents did they didn't talk about their problems And it really was a sign of weakness and really true psychotherapy. I'm a psychotherapist clinical psychotherapist That didn't really come on the scene until the 80s and 90s and now we have pet scans that are proving more of the neuroscience and the brain um development of a child and what they're observing and so It's but it's still for some people, you know in their 40s and 50s This is still not something that's widely talked about especially if you didn't grow up in um a home that felt emotionally safe and I'm not using I don't like a lot of the cliche words and I think that's what Missy and I bonded on originally as we you know tiktok and You know everything viral has taken all of these words like therapy and safe and boundaries and trauma and they've over exaggerated and overplayed and the words have lost meaning Yeah, yeah, and that really breaks my heart because we're overusing them And we're not using them in the right way and so now I think you know Anyway all that to say I just appreciate that you guys are willing to be vulnerable and open about that and that you reached out to me It was I was begging you if you remember well I just remember being super intimidated because to go back to when we first met on the compassion trip and nicaragua We were on a people mover We had not spoken two words to each other and they're you're your schedules pretty packed and they're like showing you They want you to be an ambassador and they do an incredible job compassion. They do an incredible job They equip the the community With the resources to serve you know, they're they're not doing toxic charity They're doing charity so well by equipping the people in the town to serve their people But we're really just sometimes it gets awkward because you're like observing people that live a whole other life than you do And I'm in a people mover with Missy Robertson behind me And this is in the height of Doug dynasty Yeah, you know the height of the show. I mean y'all are in the height of fame And I have just written a book and it's come out but as far as that goes I'm a nobody You know, I'm like what am I doing and there were some other people there writers speakers comedians And they're just you know getting people with some sort of influence that could advocate for Anyway, where Missy's behind me in in the van and Justin is next to me and I remember being like Play it cool, dude Oh my goodness Play it cool Missy Robertson is right behind you And he's like he's turning around give her thank you man. Oh that's Just about he totally embarrassed me he was like wow And and to give Justin I mean he because when I first met him it looked like he had just come off a bowl, you know Right a bowl. Yeah, but then we started talking. I'm like this guy's got a Kind of a soft spirit You know, and he's kind You know Justin in her book nothing wasted not gonna push that book or anything But I am because nothing wasted God uses the stuff you wouldn't I love Let me think of the verse when you were talking about people don't because we before you came on in our first segment We were talking about how people first fight argue and probably say four letter words on the way to the church building and people say how you doing great Everything's fine. The Lord is good. You know what a day But you read verses though in first Jomer says confess your sins and you will be healed But most people I think now our family was different everything was transparent out in open I heard about the birds and bees at about eight years old and I was like wow I know this was going on here but I I think most people think you know Confess your sins and you will be crucified And so it is hard for people to open up But I thought about the reason you all met and you said the same mindset we both have the Holy Spirit of God And I just think that draws people and the Holy Spirit is referred to as a counselor And so we yes, we have the Holy Spirit, but also a lot of good counseling comes from other spirit filled people Yeah, that are put in your life well most people are just scared of what they don't know yet and um And we don't want to change and I think that's where we bonded is You guys have always been incredibly authentic. It's why people watch you and want to be a part of what you're doing everything you do is transparent and honest and you know That is where we I was telling you you're asking me these questions on the bus and You know, there's nothing I mean I was thinking too like we're we're driving in these dirt roads bouncing up and down and we're watching Women who are eight months pregnant carry five gallons of water on their shoulders. So it's like all the fame is gone Yeah, all the all the glitz and glamour mine doesn't matter anymore This is actually what matters this is humanity and so all that was stripped away for us really quickly Which I feel like is a gift for our friendship And we were really forced into just being sisters in Christ And you started asking me my life. I started asking you know, and it it just was missing in Casey bonding over I think our value of Holy spirit speaking to us and authenticity how Can we reach others for Christ by just being honest about what we've gone through yes, so That is Where I'm at now. I haven't always been there. I've I've had a lot of deception in my life But what I told missing early on is I wanted to be a spokesperson and write this book Around I am a believer I am a true blue going to heaven when I die There is not a time in my life that I don't remember Jesus coming after me truly I was born in the church nursery and I had the very kind of traditional cliche Baptist upbringing in East Texas the Bible belt of the world but I Remember him pursuing me I could not get away from him and I had a very personal salvation experience with him alone At nine years old. I just I knew that he loved me But my family Was really hard. Yeah, my What I observed was a lot of neglect abandonment and a lot of alcoholism and as a teenage girl Man you are so desperate for a father's love protection acceptance and You're gonna go look for that when you don't have it in something for me. It was it was men and you know my 17 year old son is here right now and he knows He knows all of this and I I am raising him to think about What a woman is made to need And how God has knit her to be in a man's side to yes support him help him Speak into that but to be under his wing and cared for and protected and when a woman doesn't have that She it is in her eternity and aid to look for it and so you know Hopefully guiding him with my My mistakes and I say mistakes that with With a lot of grace now in a sense of I also believe in a sovereign God who Redaining yes. Yes. Yes. So much redemption of my life story and But man, I was just I was such a rebel. I was so rebellious looking for love in all the wrong places and lived that very um fake life of a Christian saying all the right things showing up to church checking all the boxes my story though I just wanted to be clear is I I was a believer and in sin and that's a part of that book nothing wasted I wrote that with a publisher going y'all need to know what you're getting into here. I'm not gonna write this I'm not gonna write this from I didn't know the Lord Thought I did but didn't and I made all these mistakes and then something big happens and brings things back no I'm gonna write this from I knew exactly what I was doing wow And I did I was saved a safe could be I Loved God with all my heart and soul but I did not believe that he loved me back Wow And that is a different trajectory of living your life as a Christian. Yeah, that is free person and captive Yeah, so you can be a Christian all day long and be a captive To the lie To the sin and you can put different pants on the sin and it's still sin, you know So whether I'm sleeping with a guy or whether I'm drinking or whether I'm lying or or whatever, you know I'm just changing the pants, you know, but the lie was the same God I don't believe you at the end of the day really love me. Yeah, I think you could speak for a lot of people Like that. He've had rough childhood. Yeah, I know people who who still like to this day are wanting to be loved so much That their outward actions are just crying out for it and that's what I guess what you were doing what you've confessed to In that book. It's not a new book. So we're something like this is a book tour at all Yeah, you wrote a lot of books but that one this is the one that will you ask me when it was a manuscript to read it Yeah, and it was such an honor and I and I did so I felt I know every aspect of it I think I read it multiple times and I've given so many away But that's where you learn to know about what true forgiveness is to With your husband absolutely and I have to tell this really funny story So we were nine months in Austin Living in Austin with Mia and I'll and going to school back and forth and Casey drives over from college station Brian college station area and Kind of sits in with my women's group. I had started a women's Bible Bible study at our house And she brings her books and all that and passing them out and Anyway, you go home that night you leave that night and go home and so Jessica, you know Jessica and Jeppe right around the corner at the time and So Jessica takes her time Next morning I walk in I don't know sometime a day walking in and Jeppe is sitting there with this feet on the coffee table Halfway through the book and he looked up and he went This woman's awesome I'm like just such a jess And he was like and the governor is like and by this time I'm like the governor And then yeah, so I was like oh, I know him by Justin, but okay I know she calls in the governor in the book he was like I said oh yeah, he's amazing and and jepp went Can I meet them? It was like a little child. I said I think I can work that out And you know jepp called Justin. I have yes, he did I love jepp's heart in that moment. He called Justin and he just said thank you Thank you for what the grace and the forgiveness that you show Casey it's teaching beautiful and that was a really special I only knew about you through Your relationship with missy and I'd met you guys once somewhere in a green room or someplace We met when you're always visiting them It's but I knew nothing else and so just yes when you don't know somebody Of course now and modern times you Google them. Yeah, and so that's what I did just to get some things about some of the stuff You're done and I start you did a you did a piece with CBN at some point I don't know when it was back when you did a book probably and I was reading the piece and it was very good and I'm reading it and I'm like the more I read it the more I'm like this is manly I'm like your story at our story are so similar and we came to some of the same conclusions About you know what God does out of brokenness and and what he does out of grace That was incredible And so I mean, I really had an affinity for you guys just reading the story before we ever had this opportunity And it now can't wait to read the book But I wanted to know like how that How do you speak to that to folks because you're obviously a professional and doing what you do to help people But then you've lived through a lot of stuff And so how does that help you in terms of we feel like for us Having experienced some things and which sin is never an advantage But when you make it through some things you're able to help some people in a unique way Do you feel like that helps you in terms of helping people? Yes, don't I mean don't you got I mean just To be at the bottom of yourself Because Christianity God faith they can all be conceptual, you know, it can all be this thing that we just hope is true But I do think there's something that has to happen in all of our lives That Bring it home it is real yeah, I agree and for me My husband's words which were totally of the Holy Spirit he will tell you that tell say that in the book He takes no credit for his words in that moment, but His words to me. I don't know how to not love you Yeah, that's a good one That's a good one if your problem was thanking God didn't love you. That was a really good line. Yeah Oh right up there with howdy ma'am Thank you But the powerful part of that moment is we've been married we have kids we're in our late 20s and Our life on the outside looks perfect big house. He's got a great job white picket fence literally I'm in minute. I work at the church. I'm doing all the things And I have this deep dark lie That is just growing and building for years in my life now it starts out with You're not wanted. I mean that we all have our life. We all have something based on our past That Comes to surface. Yeah, usually in our 16 to 20 years, you know, we start to go is this true Do I have any evidence of the contrary in my life? Are my parents showing me different are these people showing me different? school with Our friendships all of that they either confirm or deny the lie That's why it's really important young people who you hang out with yeah, and where you hang out It's really important because they're either confirming or denying the lie. That's it And the enemy It loves it the enemy could not get in me because I was born again believer I know that to be true But he can use everything that we give him like darts weapons against us flying arrows, right? Yes, he watches us. He's a lion. He's prowling around and he is taking what we say what we don't do are non-verbal All of that and and ready to use that to just help us Believe that lie in our life and and you know I was given him everything. I mean, I was jumping from guided guys bed. I was you know Living one a total facade of life And I truly when I met Justin after that night I'm not kidding you when he turned around and he gave me a hug he did give me a hug But I was like I'm marrying that cowboy I'm marrying that cowboy And but really here's what's so messed up about the moment My sin was still my lie was so true it'd become so familiar My lie had become so comfortable that I was not wanted even in that moment of hopefulness that I'd met this guy that Was pure had not had sex before was a believer was going to love me the way that I always wanted to be loved I was saying if I marry this guy I prove everybody wrong If I can just marry this guy Then all the stuff that people think I'm going to become and not be I'm going to prove him wrong. Hmm. I mean, that's how coded it wasn't to my being and so we just kind of live on that I mean first years of marriage having babies your caught up in that world all that and So it's really not difficult for the enemy Then I won't even get here. Let's let's take this up because people my critics Think that maybe I give the enemy too much credit of Well, the enemy just made you said no, no, no, okay. Let me just take all the credit myself clear the air right here at the table I take all the credit for my decisions That was my responsibility to cheat on my husband But the the bed was ready. You know, I'm saying like the soil Was ready from years and years And it's it did start as a therapist. This is how I help people yeah not live in condemnation Because shame in condemnation is keeping them from confession And we won't be able to confess and be free. Yeah, yes, and to be and to see ourselves a way that Jesus sees us And so if I'm sitting here, you know, there's no hope for you let no I want them to walk through their past and see that God all alone Was had a way for them Yeah, nothing was missed by him. Yeah, you are not a disappointment to him Had he wanted to direct change course at any time? He could have I believe that God is that sovereign and To allow me to walk this road and I have my own choices in that too, but somewhere God's sovereignty and our free will It's a little both-hand and I do believe that my rock bottom Was to sit at the lowest point the woman I said I would never become the woman I judged before Mm-hmm from my choir loft robe with my cross lapel singing in the choir And watching that woman come in the back of the church and literally think how dare she Show her face here. Mm-hmm Yeah Yeah, gross Gross, I never that version of me is dead. I don't even know who that is I don't know who that person is So and I and I see you get emotional with it. I don't know that and I've said that about Lisa For many years she when she would get up and retail her testimony I had forgotten a lot of things in her past and I would forget again Because I don't know who that person is when she would get up and speak it was like she was talking about someone else Which she actually was because she was made new to brand new person But that's what the Lord does when he redeems. Yes, he makes you brand new It's a new birth and he makes you brand new and he can do it every day That's what the what's what the amazing thing about him. Yes, so many but um I I love everything about you, you know, and I don't I mean the mistakes that you've made the sins that you've Created in your marriage and in your life and all that your husband doesn't know how to not love you And I don't know who that person is so um, but I did want to say that um Mia when you saw talked about your critics I don't know if oh, oh, yeah, yeah, let's talk about it. Can we talk about it? mention this um because I didn't know about this till last night But Mia this past weekend she was she was home and I was telling her kacy jess and her coming what why I'm gonna Miss some all this different stuff like trying to figure out a way to get home because she wanted to see also bad But she said um Did kacy have an affair? In the kitchen I was cooking and I was like Yes, Mia and she went What in the world there she has some haters she has some haters on social media and I said Like recently like I don't really I'm not understanding the context of what she was saying because I don't I don't scroll social media So I did I don't watch the reels and all that so I don't know and he didn't know anything about it But I told her I said have you not read her book and she was like what book? You know, I don't realize this She's just up for coming she's growing up. She's she's just now I don't know I don't know I gave it to her okay. No, no, no, I said because she's a reader She read like three hundred and twenty four books in 2025. I mean she's a reader and so I said I went got my last copy With your handwritten note about how many you're in the stack or whatever and I was like I need this back But you need to read this on the trip But when I asked you about it there are critics From her time when she was living outside of the love of billboard Basically and they're right now. It's happening. Yeah, there there are some people here being had a very And my kids laugh because my whole thing is like I mean, I think it's so funny Going viral is on my bucket list and my kids are like mom not this way But it reminds me of that story. Well the Lord humbled me real quick But it reminds me of the John 8 story which it's not just some story that happened two thousand years ago And the John you remember the woman called an adult yeah, everybody's with the rocks and nope Here comes Jesus with a strange take on this, you know you without San throw the first stone that has been repeating itself in churches and lives Before that happened and after and is presently probably happening And so we were talking about this last night and because you've you've done You've been on other podcasts and people with a story as rugged as yours They tend to sensationalize the dark side because it's easy what they call clickbait and You know they're lacking or editing The sensational love of God that brought you out of it, which is what should be the sensation by the way Lisa got the same we got the same criticism Must have been the same critics I guess because when she explained the reason of the lie That's why when you were just describing it's exactly what she says because her lie was You because she was molested as a child And so then her lie coming out of that was her only purpose was to please me And when she saw me or husband much like Justin was to you She saw her what she saw was her savior a white knight the person's gonna bring her out of that Unfortunately, I don't have the capacity to do that. There's only one that could do that Oh, and look I'll had it tell I've all confessed my sentence for that is the thing Because look I would preach the right sermons do I know the verses I know the verses I know there's no there's you There's not a place you can fall that guy can't reach yeah, but when it happened in my family I called out and I was like what are you crazy? Are you actually entertaining the idea of going back with this woman? I was and I basically disfellowship mom brother for at least two years That was a hard time and I was angry and I thought I don't I don't know how to not love you But I didn't have the articulation to say it but that's how I thought you acted in it and that's what it's so powerful But but to back to what we're talking about They they said what so the things that and she read it. I'm like miss it. I won't read it She said they were saying that I'm just trying to make an excuse for my sin Like yeah, you know, she you're giving this reason so you're not taking the blame for it and she's like I know it was me I did it. I'm just giving you the reason now understand the reason but understanding the reason is what Provide you then the freedom to look for Jesus in the whole place That's the kid yeah because my goodness. I promise you I walked in a lot of shaman condemnation I got all the punishment and it was wild out right after So it was two to three years of pretty consistent infidelity. Yeah, and it Came out on its own well the Lord did it and and I would beg him To bring it to the light many times because I was getting sick and I really was actually getting sick I didn't know that I was getting sick like with cancer But I noticed I mean I'm 28 years old so I'm like I but my hair starting to fall out my skin is changing I'm weak I mean I could I felt like I could breathe sometimes and now being a therapist I mean, I know what my brain was doing all the unprocessed trauma how it stores itself in the body This is all real by the way, but I'm living it, you know and I start crying out to the Lord That I am not brave enough or courageous enough to say this out loud. I need you Jesus To bring this to the light for me, please and I am not kidding you I can tell you the day the time I talk about it in the book exact I think I start the book on chapter one with that moment of Feeling the most freedom now I know Hell is coming. I know that I mean I fully expect for Justin to walk away take the kids everybody to reject me My own family to cast me out my church to cast me out and a lot of that happened. Yeah But the freedom I felt for the first time in my life To be honest fully honest fully naked like the woman Sitting there in the sand with everybody is looking at you. Yeah I was internally free. I felt joy. I felt peace and I mean look we'd go through and I actually got sick I a year later just about a year later I was diagnosed with stage four non-Hutch gunslin phoma and we then Walk the road of recovering from our almost marriage collapse and emotional collapse and my trauma and then are walking through chemotherapy for two years so I will never forget when I got a letter in the mail in the middle of my chemo bald head the whole nine yard sick as a dog and my sweet husband is Trying to process his anger his feelings His fear taking care of a three-year-old a six-year-old and taking me back and forth to treatments and Can't hardly touch me for almost a year because everything feels like it's breaking and I got a letter in the mail from an anonymous Person which we love that Saying that I'm glad that you're getting The punishment that you deserve wow And you know I did not get upset at this person. I was so sad That they too do not know the freedom I feel and I'm dying Yeah, I am literally dying that the doctors have told me you got five years. Yeah, yeah And I feel more alive And more free and more loved that I have ever felt in my life Wow and that was my moment. Yeah, that was my Isaiah moment That was like where do you want me lords in me you touch my lips with these with this coal and I am forever yours It burns. Yeah, but I I'm convinced you are who you said you are Yeah, I love it now. Let we're almost out of time, but at some point in from there You realize what you're called to Not what you're saying from which is always there and I y'all took over a small town And you have the name of what is now what it well how should I depict that go ahead let's Well, I In short wanted to create a place that I needed I mean, that's really I I needed people. I needed relationships. I needed belonging I needed not to be a number. I'd been in so many clinics and hospitals and so sick and had so I was just a number And I thought what if a place existed where you can get healing resources mental health counseling work through your past Um Doctors nutritionist chiropractors physical fitness the whole nine yards coffee Coffee so healing He's a good medicine Let's just chase his coffee I have to joke bad bad boy down But I thought what if all that existed under one roof and and could be done not in a Preachie environment or a religious environment In a safe warm Biblically based environment a Christian context of We're going to let you be wherever you are. This is safe. You can show up wherever you are If you can be cussing God if that's where you need to be But we are going to bring you back to the truth every time We're going to tell you the truth About your life and what got and how much he loves you Until you believe it And I thought what I needed that and I needed that with other people and I also needed just practical healing so Two years ago we Totally remodeled our old historic home in downtown brine college station, Texas and I actually treasure on at the yard Yes, you did built to 1905 He was hoping for a yeah, well treasure, but yeah Um, we open a nonprofit the lord when we bought the house in covid at rock bottom. He said this is not yours I want you to take this. I want you to make it a beautiful space of dignity For healing to happen with your community So it's hard as it was because she's so beautiful. We did and We turned it over in in august of 23 we opened made well house Yeah, you can learn more about it at madewellhouse.com We started with two staff members and we were serving about 80 people a month and through only Jesus We have 38 staff members and we serve 3500 people a month right now in brine college station with 35 hundred A month. That's amazing. It's unreal We were out walking earlier today in the neighborhood and we ran across some girls that are staying with Cory's parents right now And she had on her made well shirt case. He did and we were talking and reducing ourselves and all that And they're like, what do you do and case he said well, I run made well house and they're like You're made and we know made well They know that made well, so it's really awesome So here's how you remember it so you keep getting bigger I have a made well part two And you name it Well made made well Just I can't run that yeah Your way to Jesus started marketing company And I didn't even get to ask you about the Rayhead Heygar book But did you just that found that fast name because I was certain about that But we'll have to bring you back next time to do that But thank you for being so transparent and vulnerable today It's so good for our audience and to authenticate Your life is so important because that's how people see Jesus the most and so you did that today So thank you for that. Thank you for taking it every day Awesome Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode By subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode You