Head of Scientology’s Niece, Jenna Miscavige Tells All

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A super juicy interview is gonna come after I get into a few hot topics and updates with the niece of the head of Scientology. Yeah, it's a real juicy one. First couple updates. So we now know that Nick Robreiner's son, who is being held for the murders of Robreiner and his wife Michelle Reiner, who is also a photographer and quite accomplished singer, he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. And in that diagnosis of schizophrenia, they had changed his medication around, which they thought was going to work. It was not working. Also there's been reports that Robreiner did share with friends, that he was very afraid of him. Also there was talk that there were people who did want to call the cops on Nick, being that his behavior was so bizarre at Conan O'Brien's party, but according to page six, he didn't want to do that. He didn't want to make a bigger deal out of it. Maybe at the request of Rob, I don't know. Also that he was either not living in the guest house or was not being kicked out of the guest house, something to that effect. But like I said before, I think that there, besides him going through his mental situation, he, I think there was probably some type of finality in some type of conversation. I don't know that would have set him off. We will never really know, even if he comes to, I don't know that he'll ever really tell us the steps of what happened. But it's just very disturbing and his family has spoken out and thanked everyone for the outpouring, but that's what we are with the schizophrenia. He was in a very expensive place just prior to what happened, which was $70,000 a month. And the diagnosis of schizophrenia, the change of medication. So if they're going for a not guilty by reason of insanity, but then he gets put away, I don't know that people ever get put away for life. So if that is the case, I think then in 10 years, 15 years, maybe he'll be evaluated again. But I'm guessing that is what they're going to go for. They have the Karen Reed famed former attorney. And I think that there is some definitely valid points that he was absolutely not in his right state of mind and was in fact insane when he committed these crimes. So there we go. Okay. Switching gears to some light fun, a little update on Real House 5 of Beverly Hills. Well, finally, Kyle has come even more clean than she did before about her former relationship with this person. I don't know if that doesn't say Morgan Wade and that they had this speed dating kind of a party that Bose throws, which was very reminiscent of Patty Stenger's million dollar matchmaker to one point. Bose goes, just reminding you guys, you're halfway through your conversation. Like I remember those type of things. And one of my friends was there, Ben Gleeve comedian, and I was like, how the heck did this happen? I do believe he was single at the time. So that part was real. It doesn't seem like there was any great matchmaking. But it was pretty fun. And they are all single except for Bose and this new girl, Amanda, who is a money manifestation life coach for women and has a book, a rich AF. And I find her likable. I think she's like positive and everything, but she starts to tell Dari what she should be doing as she's going through this divorce with PK. She doesn't know where the money is and she doesn't know what's going on with their retirement. And Bose being the businesswoman that she is, is like, well, your job is to help women with finances. What do you think she should do, Amanda? Since you're like the life coach of finances. And she's like, well, I think the biggest thing that you need to do to figure out Dari. Yes, I have to figure out a lot of things. PK is one minute he's paying the mortgage, the next he's not. And it's very confusing. And I don't know, but my name is on everything, but I don't know where all those accounts are. And then Bose is like, so Amanda, like what's the next thing she should do? Well, the next thing that you should do is you need to manifest where you want to see yourself financially after PK. Who is Dari in a year? That's what you need to do. And Bose is like, I mean, Bose's BS meter was just off. You know, Amanda did nothing wrong. What she's saying is good advice, but it just isn't real financial advice. There wasn't anything like, okay, this is first what you need to do is you need to get a letter from your attorney stating that you need to do this. Then you need to get her forensic accountant and you have to do it an international one. And I actually have a great one I can recommend. Like something like that's what Bose was wanting like an answer. But it's very, very entertaining and juicy at that. Oh, and then that's when Kyle goes. I might go, Brad, I might go Angelina. So, you know, I will see. My prediction is Kyle ends up dating a man next. And that's just my prediction, but we'll see. Then we hop over to Real House of Salt Lake City, which was really fun. They're in Greece. And to just continue with the lesbian housewife theme, they ask, oh, have you ever kissed a girl? And, um, Bronwyn is like, I have, I have kissed a girl and I've enjoyed it. And they're like, how many? She's like more than one. And she's like, oh, well, have you done more than kissing? I may have. And then Brittany is like, well, I know how many guys I've kissed. And they're like, how many? She's like 67. So I was like, okay, so this like 45 year old woman has been like keeping a lot of everyone that she's hooked up with just for kissing. And I just want to say back in the day in college, we had our last senior year of college in my sorority house. We had a scam board, which meant kissing or more. But if you kiss somebody, you would be like, put the date and the name and how many people got, how many people did you hook up with before the end of graduation? And I won. I won. And then I brought that scam board home to my parents' house. My dad was like, this is great. This is the only thing you've ever won in your life. And he thought it was the funniest thing. He was very proud of it. So I can relate to Brittany. Why the heck not? But Brittany goes, where's, no, sorry, Bronwyn goes, where is Whitney in this conversation of kissing girls? And now listen, we are ending 2025. This has been a crazy year. But what we have not had in the Real Housewife franchise is a real lesbian love relationship, like not a make out in front of the cameras and a jacuzzi, not a one time situation like they had in Real Housewives of Atlanta with that guy with his huge boner, I forgot his name, not where the couple of them hooked up with them or whatever. No, I'm talking two girls are like, it's you. I'm into just you. And I'm not saying it's going to be Bronwyn and Whitney, but I'm just saying it's something that hasn't happened yet. And I feel like 2026 is the year that something like that might happen. When I was in the grounding, there was, this is a long time ago, there were two girls in the Sunday show that came in straight and went out gay. And I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Also remember when I was talking with Chris last Thursday about this really funny VHS dating tapes and if they were real or not. And I said, it reminds me of how we were taught to do funny characters for the groundlings and how you do a backstory and everything. So my girl friend of the show, Emmy Award winning, a comedic actress, the mom on Goldberg's Wendy, McClellan and Covey, my friend, she loves to listen to Juicy Scoop even when she's not on it. And she said, she left me a voice message and she said, Heather, you're right. They are all people from the groundlings. I know them. They're comedic actors. You're completely right. It was the groundlings people. And I'm like, wow, you know, sometimes it's just amazing to be right all the time. It's just sometimes just chilling for everybody involved. Okay. Getting before we get to our interview, I did want to do a little update for those of you that are subscribed and enjoying Juicy Crimes. Thank you so much. We love doing it. And there's a little update on the Juicy Crime from last week. Brian Walshie was convicted of killing his wife who went missing. Last you've seen was New Year's Eve. Two years ago, he was convicted and he got life. So there was a little update there. And before we get into our Scientology episode with Jen and the scavenger, I wanted to say there was a really weird story that came out that Riley Kino, who is the, let me see. Yes. She would be the granddaughter of Elvis, daughter and granddaughter of Priscilla Presley. And she's a really good actress. She's like 36 or 38. There was some weird lawsuit filed. And within the lawsuit that was like basically like managers suing her for some money thing. It was revealed that she in fact donated her eggs to John Travolta and his now late wife. When they had their child who was now 13, that she's the biological mother of that child. It was so weird. She has since denied it. I don't even know. I tried to read the article. I didn't know why that was even brought up. But, you know, for a day or so, I was like, if this is real, that is so interesting. And if that had anything to do with the Scientology world. When you listen to this interview right now, it's very interesting how they, according to Jenna, who was raised in it, how they see a parental relationships and procreation and all of it. So I hope you have a great Christmas. And during the holiday, we will be dropping fresh and new content and episodes only on Patreon. So make sure that you're part of Patreon. You go to heathermcdalland.net, click on Patreon, join it, change your life and get ready for the new year. Please welcome my guest now. Thank you. Well, I'm very excited to talk to our guest because Scientology is something that we have been fascinated about, especially on JuicyScoop for years. And today's my guest really knows everything about it. Welcome Jenna Miscavige. And did I say it wrong again? Miscavige, no, Miscavige. Miscavige, yeah, it's like savage. Jenna Miscavige, you have shared a lot about your life. You have written a book. And let's just really start from the beginning of this journey that you've had. What was your family's history with the religion? So both of my parents got into Scientology as kids. Their parents became involved. And then so by the time I came along, they were already Scientologists, but there's different levels of Scientology. And so just before I turned two, they joined Scientology's like most dedicated military-esque group called the C-Organization. C-Org. And it's just basically where people wear military uniforms. They have ranks and they live communally. They eat communally and you sign one billion year contracts dedicating your soul lifetime after lifetime to Scientology. And you know, there's just like, like you're not allowed to have sex before you're married. You're actually not allowed to have kids that they already had me. And previously you were allowed to have kids in this group. But then shortly after that rule changed. And so you work like 100 hour weeks with little to no time off. And yeah, basically you make 50 bucks a week. So you dedicate your whole life, your whole being to this organization. So when you were two, approximately what year was this? 1986. So were they on the actual ship working on the ship or were they what were they doing? So it was not actually a ship, but previously like the C-Org was created on an actual ship. They just had moved to land. So that's why it was called the C-Org. And this was an LA. Oh, so this is all in LA. So they didn't want them, they didn't want these people at this level where they're just working, you know, almost like indentured slavery. To have kids because then, because then someone would have to take care of the kids that would take away from them dedicating so many work hours. So how did it work? Like where did you guys live and who did take care of you? So it was not only that they, that somebody would have to take care of us, but I think it was also seen as a distraction to our parents. Like, and also like a maybe an alternate place of loyalty, you know, that wasn't just to Scientology. But so when my parents were at work during the day, up until I was six, I would like go to this nursery where we would just like, I don't know, they would teach us stuff and we would learn like ABCs at first. But we, our parents would come at first they would come home for about an hour, like we would meet them at the apartment for about an hour and then go back to work. And then they would come home at night. So we only saw them for like an hour a day, really. And what kind of work were they doing? So my mom was in a department where she basically like, there was a cruise ship that Scientology was building where they could do like special Scientology counseling on there. And so she was like getting the money raised for this from Scientologists. She was literally like doing the space plans, the architecture work. She was like getting that done. In fact, she actually left like before I was four to go do that. So I was just with my dad. And my dad worked in their computer department where, you know, it's kind of like IT, but it's like they have their own internal computer system. So that's where he worked at that time. And were you an only child? No, I had a brother. Actually, I have two brothers, but my one, they were twins and my mom took one brother and the dad took the other brother. It's all fucked up and weird. Everyone's got that one friend who's always wearing the same clothes. Everyone's got that one friend who's always wearing the cutest outfits. And you're like, where did you get that? Can I just go shop in your closet? Well, that is what not. What not is the greatest shopping app. It is the number one live shopping app in the US where shopping happens in real time with real people, real conversations and incredible deals. You almost never pay full price. You shop name brands across makeup, perfume, clothes, handbags, jewelry and more all without the retail sticker shop. It's the best place to find great deals on products you love. And there are amazing sellers with great taste going live 24 seven. You can comment in real time and they will show you a close up of the clothes, explain the sizing and answer any question. I think it's such a fun way to get something fun and different and exciting and get those new looks that you love. Where you were like, would this work for me or not? Well, you can find out on what not like I did and really have a good time with it. You got to check it out. Download the what not app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search what not. W-H-A-T-N-O-T. What not in the app store and start scoring amazing deals. Wait, when did that happen? So now you're like, so when you're, are you the oldest or younger? Younger. Yeah, they're eight years older than me. Okay, so when so you're born, the boys are they join the weird. So they're not going to regular school. They're going to regular school at eight. No, they're not. Yeah, they're going to like Scientology school place in LA. Like not even a school. It's just like it's like a place where you work and do school a little bit. So then when did your parents split up? Oh, no, sorry. They're my mom's kids from a previous marriage before I was even born. So my parents split up a few years ago. Oh, well, then when you said the twins, one took one into one to the I'm confused then. Yeah, yeah, I know. Oh, so you only had one living with you? Yes, exactly. And she never saw the other one? She did when we were in LA. She did, but it was like his mom and dad were his mom and dad and my mom and dad were the other ones, mom and dad. And did that, did the first husband, was he involved in Scientology? Yes. Oh, so so they still were Scientologists even though. Yes, definitely. And did the boy, so would the brothers, the twins see each other and and play with each other and stuff? They did when we were in LA, but before that, you know, there were several years where they didn't. But yeah, when they're back in LA, it was like they were brothers again. And it was like I was like meeting this new brother that I never even knew about. And were they identical? No, they don't even look like brothers. Oh, that is so crazy. Yeah. What is their relationship like now? To each other. Yeah. I think they got along great now. And are they still Scientologists? No, they're not in Scientology. No. OK, so let's go. My immediate family's all out of Scientology. OK, so let's go back to, OK, so now you're a little girl. They're working these crazy hours. You go to this little Scientology school. And OK, then, then where are we in in life? So when I turned six, I go to basically like Hemet in Riverside. And I get put at this Scientology boarding school where it's like 15 minutes away from where my parents work. But now I live there. I live in like a dorm with seven other girls. It's connected to about like one bathroom, then seven other girls. And, you know, we wear uniforms. We're all divided into like units. And we like salute like, you know, every morning when we wake up, we go to a muster and it's like unit one report, all present and accounted for, sir. And so basically like 30 hours a week, we're doing like manual labor, like groundswork, whether it's rock hauling, gardening, planting trees, painting, all that sort of thing. And then after lunch, we are doing like we're doing studies, but we don't have grades. It's just like kids who are like six years old to 16 years old all in the same classroom. And we're doing these like self led things where we like check off a list. It's called the check sheet. We check off each thing we do. And then in the evening, we're doing Scientology studies. So, you know, we're up at 6 30 a.m. And then our studies end at 9 p.m. You know, I've always really been fascinated about the weird education of it because when I've talked to people and stuff, I'm like, you know, as much as we say Scientology is, you know, weird and strange, the people that come out of it, whether it's Leah Remini, that's good actress, good writer, you know, good vocabulary, good communicator, they're able to have businesses, you know, and it makes and work. And it makes you wonder like, well, is traditional education like really that important if you can communicate and read and write? Like, you know, I mean, did you learn algebra? You know, all the things that were required to learn in regular school that we do say, do we need algebra? Do we even need to learn a second language with like, you know, Google translate and things like that? So I'm kind of like, I do think it's, you know, strange and weird that you didn't have the experience of being a cheerleader or doing a sport. But like the education part doesn't seem, what do you think? Do you think it's like the? No, I hear what you're saying and I can totally, like I totally get it. In Scientology, we were very much like very literate, like we were, we were taught to read a law and to look up the meanings of words obsessively. The problem really comes when like, I was isolated from the whole world. Like I was in this. So I didn't know about like civics. I didn't know any of my rights. I got it. No history, no like American history or yeah. Exactly. So, you know, everything that Scientology taught me was, was all I ever had access to. Right. So on one hand, yes, very literate. On the other hand, I was like a weirdo. Yeah. And was afraid of people and, you know, beyond just the education part of school. I mean, we didn't learn things like science and physics or even about our bodies, like what parts do what and that sort of thing. And so like later coming out of Scientology, becoming a mom and other things like you don't really know anything. So things like that. Yeah, I got it. Especially when you're taught that you're not a body, you're a spiritual being and your body is like a piece of meat that you basically, when that body dies, you're going to get a new one. So it's all sort of like part of devaluing who you are as like a person and taking care of yourself. And so it's, it winds up being okay if you work as a slave for hundreds of hours because you don't really know anything about yourself or the world. Yes, you guys could read and write your good communicators, but that because they wanted you to live this world of this is all there is, then they, you didn't really know about American history or science or anything, which that is so crazy. Or civics, like I didn't know anything about our government or my rights. You know, I didn't, I didn't know like, you know, what was the wrong way to be treated? What was the right way? Because remember at the same time, it's not like we're living in a home with our parents. So it's not like we're getting that information from anywhere else. We're at this ranch seven days a week. Well, one day we do go to our parents apartment and, you know, they come home at midnight and then we're leaving their apartment again by like 11am the next morning. Did you feel like you even like had a mom or knew who she was or anything? I did, but I constantly missed my parents. Like I constantly was, especially when I was younger later on, I just kind of got used to it. I think that when you live a life with your mom and your dad and then it gets taken away, it's a lot different than when you just don't have them around. I think that you know what you're missing when that happens. And it's a lot sadder where I think that in my case, I just didn't have it. So it's, it sucked. I felt this like yearning and I like wanted to be with them. And my goal was if I finished all my studies at this boarding school, then I could work at the base with them. And so that was always my goal was to get to the base so I could see them every day. So yeah, I definitely miss them. And I felt like I knew them just as much as I knew anybody, anybody else really. And so did you guys like have celebrate like Thanksgiving or Christmas or anything like that? So like on Thanksgiving, we would have like a little bit longer of a meal at the, at the boarding school. And that was pretty much it. At Christmas, we would do a little bit more like we would go to the base where our parents were and there would be like a show. And then we would usually have one day off. That was when I was a kid later on, like it would be like Christmas would get canceled because like everyone was in trouble. Nobody was doing good enough. But yeah, when I was a kid, we did have Christmas. We would have like a day off together. So Christmas would cancel that you mean at the boarding school or whatever? Well, I left the boarding school when I was 12. So it would be like past when I was 12, when I was like a regular Scientology worker from when I was 12 until I was 22. And that's kind of the time when Christmas would get canceled. And so did you even know what Christmas was celebrating? Like, did you understand what Christianity was or? I knew it was a religion. But I mostly thought of it like Christmas was just a celebration that we got. And I was like, do not be questioning this. You take what you get. This is the highlight of your year. Yeah. Oh my God. And so so now you're 12 and now you don't now you're just like working and what's your job at 12? So when I'm 12, I get sent to Clearwater, Florida and I have like a few jobs. So part of the time I'm just doing Scientology studies all the time. Like I'm learning even how to use their like E meter. I don't know if you've seen that. Yeah, that's like my detector looking thing. Yeah. I have one somewhere around here. Okay. So I'm like learning how to do that. And what is that really? Is it just, I mean, it's, is it just like, yeah, you're somehow it just tied up to your nerves. And so if you get nervous, like a lie detector, you could say you're not telling the truth to somebody or what? So basically it sends like the tiniest current, like you're holding two cans. So like in the cans are attached to the emitter. So it sends a current like through your body out through the other hand back into the E meter. And it's just, if there's a, if there's an interruption in this current, whether it's from body movement or you getting tense or something, it shows up on the emitter dial. And that's just, they're interpreting it to mean that that emitter reaction, that needle reaction is from your mind. They believe that your mind influences the current that's going through your body. And so when they ask a question and it influences the current, they're like, ah, we've got you. What are you thinking about? So like at this time, like I just, I remember seeing the Dianetics commercials everywhere. One billion books sold and I, and it was like an earth exploding. And as a little kid, I first thought it was a diet book. Dianetics like a diet book. And then I was always just like, yeah, what is this? You know, it was just like, oh, how people like create such a better life for themselves. And now that we've learned more, it's like that, that whole, what was that book? It was just, it was just a history of Scientology and how to make your life better. And, and did they really, they really didn't sell a billion books, right? Well, when they forced Scientologists to buy them over and over again, sell and also, or when they just like give them away or cause they have their own printing presses, they can. So I think they say that's how many are printed. So they have their own printing presses. They can print however, fucking many books they want to write. But Scientology actually, I mean, sorry, Dianetics was before Scientology existed. And it was basically about how certain illnesses or certain bad things you had gone fears or whatever. It basically taught people that it was because of painful incidents that had happened in the past. Specifically, things that were said during those painful moments of unconsciousness and that those past things were controlling, were making you sick now. But basically, Dianetics then turned into Scientology when, when basically they would have people recall these moments of pain and unconsciousness, and then they would recall things from a past life. So, so then it became your spirit, because if you had a past life, you had to have, you know, you had to be a spiritual being. And then that's where it sort of started going into a religion and Scientology and grew from there into what it is now. So, so Dianetics is like their book one. That's what they call it. And so how is David your uncle? He's my dad's brother. Okay. And how, so tell me how that came where he, he got to be the head of the church. So I was really little when this all happened, like two. So I wasn't any part of it. But from what I understand, Elron Hubbard died. And there was a dude who was like working with him, a couple, and they were sort of all like set to be in charge. And my uncle like outmaneuvered them and like tricked people and he became the boss because he went for it pretty much. I don't know. I don't know all the specifics. But then did that, but then did that also elevate your dad's position being that they're brothers? Well, my dad had only just come back into Scientology at that time, like he had grown up in it, but he came back into the Seaworth. So yeah, I guess at that point, like my dad did become a senior executive. So did my mom. But, and so yes, it was, but it wasn't like an automatic promotion. Like in Scientology, they don't really care about your family. They think that you're all spiritual beings. So it wasn't an automatic promotion. It was also like they were the people who had grown up with and worked with my uncle. So it's almost like he's putting his confidants or friends or like high school buddies in charge as well. And okay, so now you're like 12 working and all that. And were you, what was your relationship with like, so you're in. Near like the LA Hollywood scene when that starts to kind of become more popular, like in the 90s and stuff with like a Christy Allen and John Travolta, Christy Ally at Christy Ally, John Travolta, all those Jenna Alfman, like all those people. Where are you in that world? You're still in Florida and they're here or what's happening? Yeah. So I was in Florida and those people are mostly in LA, but there actually are. So in Florida and Clearwater, Florida, there's Scientology's biggest base. People go there to get the highest level of Scientology training and counseling. So I often saw Jenna Alfman, Christy Ally, John Travolta there as well, but they were sort of going back and forth because in LA, there's the celebrity center. Right. And then like, so what were you guys told like of the outlet? Like, how do you think now that this was ever even allowed that kids would be able to not go to school and not work? But I guess because it's almost like a Catholic school, like because it's a religion and it's non-profit religion, whatever it is, or it is a profit religion. I don't know. The fact that religion is not regulated for taxes. So they were able to do that and they were able to have their own schools and no one was checking on the kids. Right. Like they're able to sit like in a private school. Well, you basically, there's no oversight on the curriculum. There's very few requirements. So they could say, even when we were doing Scientology studies, that that's our schooling. When in fact we did go to a like place that where we did regular schooling one day a week, but that was it. And again, it wasn't regular schooling. It was, there were no grades. We were on the check sheets again. So self led. But, um, but we did like that was some educational thing that we did. But yeah, there was just no oversight. Like none of us got diplomas. And were you ever like part of like the recruiting side of like getting people to join? No, I wasn't. And so, so then, okay. So now you're like your teen years are spent there. You're, you're, are you in the same, are your parents still in LA? Where are you? My parents are back in Riverside and Hemet. So the whole time from when I'm 12 until I'm 16, I pretty much like I see them once or twice. And that's it. In fact, I'm forbidden to call them by my aunt, Shelley Miscavige, um, because like I said before, like they kind of consider the, the child-parent relationship like a distraction, especially if you're a member of their most dedicated group. So it's seen as you like putting over importance on the family instead of the group. And so I wasn't allowed to call them. And in fact, several times when I tried, I was physically restrained from doing so. They would just like, you mean you'd try to grab the phone and they would like say no. They would say no. And then I would try to grab the phone again and then one person would grab each arm and a leg and I would be like fighting to get to the phone and they wouldn't let me. And so then at 16, where do you go off to? So at 16 out of nowhere when I was still in Clearwater, I was picked out of my day and I started getting these interrogations on the E-meter for like nine hours a day. And it was from this like really important boss lady who was terrifying. And, you know, she was asking me all sorts of weird questions like, um, you know, do you have evil intentions against your uncle? All of this stuff. And then they basically had me be in a room all day. Um, when I wasn't getting these interrogations where I was supposed to like listen to these lectures. And then when I wasn't doing that, I had to scrub the bathroom. Um, and somebody would be watching me all the time in case I tried to escape. So there was someone with me at all time. I had no idea why. And basically after like a month or more of this. And also by the way, someone would sit outside my door while I was sleeping to make sure I didn't escape. I didn't even have anyone to call if I wanted to escape. I was terrified of the outside world. I wasn't going anywhere. Right. Um, but then they brought me to LA. They told me that my parents had left the most dedicated group that they were now living in Mexico. And they wanted them to go to Mexico because they didn't want the press to get a hold of the story that they had left. And so they had set them up there and then that they wanted me to go with them. And so they had left the religion. Yes. But you had no idea because you were communicating with them. Yes, I had no idea. Exactly. Yeah. So two dudes were like telling me this after I got flown to LA and they were like, your parents are gone. And so then, so then do you reconnect in Mexico? Nope. Nope. I said, well, I barely know these people. Now I've been away from them my whole life. Um, I've have all of these friends that I've made this whole like all of these people that I care about. Yeah, that's my world now. And I've already been ripped away from my world previously in California to go to Florida and now you're trying to rip me away from it. Also in Scientology, they teach you that if you go to, well, I was way behind in school. Right. And the idea of me going to a regular school was terrifying. Right. But not only that, they teach you in Scientology, like in Scientology, the big enemies are the psychs, the psychiatrist. And they teach you that they like drug you and they like lobotomize you and stuff. And so I was like, I am going to a regular school where they're going to lobotomize me and like whatever. So the whole thing, like I was afraid of the outside world. I had like no contact with people who weren't Scientologists at all. Yeah. And I was called non Scientologists wogs. And it was like muggles. So it was like, yeah, I was, and we were, we were like, I was always told that we had to tell them a certain story. Like I was a student and I never understood why we had to lie. So I was just afraid of them. And so going into the outside world with my parents, who at this point I had spent no time with, leaving everyone behind to a school where I was essentially going to get drugged and lobotomized. I was like, hell no. I'm staying here. And so. And when, why did your parents leave? Do you ever connect with them? And did they tell you what, what was their reason for finally getting out? Yeah, for sure. I mean, the things that were going on at the base where they were at, I mean, my uncle Dave was beating people. He was like keeping people in a trailer, making them sleep overnight on the floor, making people stand in trash cans while people were sleeping. People threw stuff at them. And like, yeah, just regular beatings and psychological torture. And they were just like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm out. This is, this is insane. And so they decided to leave. And then when they went to Mexico, I mean, did they have like that? That's why I always think of when you, when you defect it, then you have, how do you even start like a career or a business? Right. That's what's really hard when you don't have an education. First of all, you don't have any connections outside of Scientology because everyone you know is in Scientology. I mean, being on Mexico is another level, but I guess maybe it's easier if you're like white in Mexico and American, but they basically sold time shares at that time. Yeah. And then they eventually moved back to the, to the US and got their real estate license. I mean, all of these things, when you leave Scientology, you lose those connections, no education, et cetera. Those are all setbacks, but one thing you're used to doing in Scientology is working your ass off. Right. So like, like nobody, nobody else in the world. So usually people who leave Scientology in this way, in this group are very hard workers. But that being said, like you kind of maybe burn out at some point if you've been working. Yeah. Six years old. So, so, so now you're 16, you're back in LA. You have no relationship with your parents. They are, you know, seen as the enemy. Then what is going on with you? Like, where are you living then? So I'm living on Hollywood Boulevard. I don't know if you see that information center or their testing center where people sort of, that's where I lived on the top floor. Okay. And yeah, that was after about another, like basically, so now I wasn't allowed to answer the phone at all. I wasn't allowed to receive any letters from my parents or anything like that. And yeah, I worked there. I mean, I wound up leaving when I was 22, but things just gradually became worse and worse. And one of the big things that happened is that I had sex before I was married. And that if you do that, you basically get assigned. Well, normally you get assigned to what they call the rehabilitation project force, which is basically a program where you are all black. You're not allowed to speak unless spoken to. You have to run everywhere you go. You're basically ostracized and you do heavy manual labor all day and you do five hours of interrogation, like basically confessions. And people stay on this program for like nine years sometimes. And what about the guy that you had sex with? Was he also banished to this group? Well, I didn't. So what happened is that I wanted to get married, but they wouldn't let me because they were afraid that my parents were going to like try to like meet with this person's family. It was just all paranoia. They were going to meet with this person's family and they were going to conspire to take down Scientology. And so they wouldn't let me get married. And so that's when I wound up. We wound up sleeping together before we got married, but because it was kind of their fault and because I was kind of really bitchy, they didn't assign me to the program. But now where are you guys finding time to be intimate? Are you like still living in this dormitory type life or do you have like your own apartment? We don't have our own apartment. No, it was literally like there was an empty room and we went in there. And there's no time. Like you get home at like midnight, literally. And then it's like you hold hands in the hallway and then everyone's like giving you the side eye and like being like, don't touch each other. And if you like even look at somebody long enough straight in the eyes, like 20 people will write reports on you because in Scientology, they have this culture where you have to write reports on each other. So still at like 22, are you able to like go with your boyfriend and like walk on Hollywood Boulevard and go get lunch there? And go get lunch somewhere. So this is even before I was 18. Okay. No, well, one day a week you are. One day a week we were allowed to go like down the street to combos and get pizza. But on a regular day, absolutely not. You cannot leave the building. There's a guard there the entire time. So you have to like have his permission to leave and that sort of thing. Now I did walk home frequently because I the building I worked in was on Hollywood and Ivar. So it's just a few blocks down so we would walk home or take a van home, but it wasn't like like it was at midnight. It wasn't like any sort of free for all or free time or anything. And then what about like those big Scientology like events at night, like those big fancy things that they'd have that we've seen videos. Would you be like working those or seeing the stars or what about those? Yeah. So those happen. Scientology has like five or six regular events that they do throughout the year. They're not always at the shrine in LA. They're sometimes in different places, but basically at every one of those events, they come out with a new book. Like for instance, they'll come out with a new edition of Dynetics that has like a different sticker on the front or something like that. And then basically it's our job as staff to basically force the Scientology parishioners to buy these things and essentially stay up all night until we make our quota. And so we are script would be to go to each person and be like cash or credit and like try to basically make everyone buy whatever is being whatever new course is being is coming out or is being announced at this event. And so, okay, so then so when do you start to go? This isn't for me. Like how, when did you leave? I think the first time I ever started thinking this wasn't for me when I was when I was probably like 16, but it is sort of a building up. But one of the main things that happened is that when I was 21, I believe maybe 20 me and my then husband. Because we got married when I was 18. And none of our family was there or anything. It was just kind of crazy. But we got sent to a mission on a mission to Australia in order to help a local Scientology church get a new building to work out of and to like raise money for etc. And it was, you know, when we were there, it was the first time I was in the regular world. Like we had an apartment and we dealt with like realtors and we and one of the ladies who was on staff there. It wasn't like this. It wasn't the most dedicated group. So like she had kids and we would kind of like hang out with her little daughter who was two years old. She was really cute. And we would like go grocery shopping would make our own food and I had never experienced this in my life. So all of the people who I once thought were terrifying and the outside world, which I thought was like horrible and full of drugs and whatnot. I kind of learned that it wasn't wasn't really true. It was all just like kind of made up. In fact, half the people who I met didn't even know what Scientology was because we were always taught that Scientology was like taking over the world and everybody loved it. And it was like so big. And that's what we get told at these events. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you never like watch TV or like did you say you didn't so you didn't even see like the celebrities that were in it on their shows or anything. So you were not there. There's no way to be like Starstrike even. Well, like we if there was a Tom Cruise and John Travolta movie, like they would play that at like Christmas or other things. But yeah, I didn't grow up watching TV at all. So actually when I was in Australia, it was like the first time we would like watch TV, like we would watch Big Brother or like Australian Idol or whatever. Yeah. Okay. So then so then what happens in Australia? Do you start thinking I think there's more to this life or? Yeah, I think a big part of it for me was like the little girl because we weren't allowed to have kids and my husband at the time, he really wanted to have kids and he always thought the rule would change, which was stupid. So is the rule is the stories true about how they would do forced abortions and stuff? Yes, it's true. Yeah, I never had that when I was in Scientology because I never got pregnant. But yeah, it would be like people in the group that I was in. It's not like they're holding you down and forcing you to do an abortion, but they're like, yeah, the right thing for you to do is get an abortion. Otherwise, you're going to betray the group and leave. And so people would have to like, you put through like, you know, different steps that they would have to do to decide what's for the greatest good for the world and just be like pressured and like ostracized if they didn't do that. And so yeah, it's absolutely true. So you see this little girl and you're like, I do think I want to be a mom. Is that what was happening kind of? She was just like so funny and so cute and we would just hang out and I was like, hmm, I was like, maybe I really am missing out on something that I never thought. And it was also the first time that I had kind of my own space. Like I was always surrounded, you know, by everybody all the time we ate in big mess halls. I lived in dorms. It was the first time that I even had like privacy to think my own thoughts without being like inspected upon every day. And then we went back and then it really put everything in stark contrast. Like it, like we had a little freedom and then we got back and it was like, even worse, like they were just treating people more and more horribly people were expected to work through the night like nearly every single night to get to finish projects that like just wound up having to be redone. It just, you know, they were just doing little things to take things away from people that they didn't have to. And I always thought like, you know, I'd always believed in giving up certain things in order to maybe have to sacrifice in order to make the world a better place. But some of the things that they were forcing people to give up were just because of humiliation and cruelty. And I couldn't unsee that anymore. It became a point where I was like, yeah, I'm not helping people. If everybody who I care about is being treated like shit in front of my face, like we're not helping anybody. And I was like, yeah, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And so that what, what held you then when you said that's it? And how do I get out of this? I was 22, almost 21. So I wound up saying that I wanted to leave. They tried to like placate me in many different ways. I was like, nope, I'm leaving. They basically try to make you get an interrogation before you leave. Because if you don't get it, then you basically are what they call declared a suppressive person, which means that no Scientologist can ever talk to you. Again, you're like the enemy. And I was to a point where I had had so many of these interrogations, like even where I tried to get out of the room and they like chase me down Hollywood Boulevard, chase me down the stairs, physically restrained me, wouldn't let me out. And I was like, I'm not doing it. Like at this point, I didn't even really believe in Scientology itself anymore. So I, I was like, I'm not doing it. And did you get to the level of where you found out that about the spaceships and the aliens and stuff? No, I found that out after they teach you in Scientology that if you learn about that before it's your time, then you'll basically die. So like they literally tell you that you'll get like pneumonia and die. So even after long after I left Scientology, when I, when I was like watching the South Park episode, I was like, I tested it on my husband first. I was like, let's see if you die. If you live, then I'll watch it. And yeah, like, and then you always think about like the person that gets that level. Are they like, are you fucking kidding me? Like this is the story? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so like I could see somebody who's like, you know, who's like maybe like you, if you were in Scientology, like, because not all Scientologists work in the dedicated group that I did. Right. And then I grew up in the way I did. So like if I was in the regular world and I heard that I'd be like, what the right, right. I was already just like a brainwashed weirdo the entire time I was there. So I probably would have been like, oh, cool. Wow. So when people say the reason like, you know, Tom Cruise and Sutton, you know, and John Travolta got in it and stayed in it so long, you know, some people feel it's because they like you were like, kind of brainwashed in that, you know, all your success and everything is because you're a Scientologist. The other part is in one of those weird truth telling, holy, the two cans that maybe at that time they revealed some deviant behavior or even homosexual behavior. And they use that as blackmail to be like, if you ever leave, we'll tell, we'll tell. And, you know, now it doesn't matter. But 20, 30 years ago being gay when you're playing this like macho guy could have really hurt your career. What do you think is the deal with those level of stars that are still in it? I mean, I think it's a combination of all of them. I think it is a matter of blackmail at some point, even if it's not being outright said, they know what Scientology does to people who speak out about them. And I also think that they've been in Scientology for so long at this point that all of their connections, all of the people who work for them, all of their, all of everybody is in Scientology. So they stand so much to lose all of their friends. Now they have other friends, I'm sure it's not like how it was for me, but I think that's a big loss for them. And I think that Scientology really appeals to the ego of maybe like insecure actors or whatever. And it really like it can make you feel really empowered, especially when, you know, you're just going there and paying for it and getting treated like a king or a queen, which is very different than, you know, the experience that I'm having. I'm one of the people who are serving those people or who are carrying their folders or who, you know, are cut out. So I honestly, so part of me is like, I can understand why someone like me stays. I can understand why someone like them stays, but I really think it's extremely fucked up that they're living this life and their mansion and, you know, have millions of dollars and are getting basically. Taking care of by kids who are my age, who are running their courses on them, who are running their counseling, and they see all this and they hear the stories in the media and they just say, oh, it's all bullshit. Well, it must be nice to experience Scientology in that way. But I've met many of those celebrities. I've seen them around when I was when I was in Clearwater floor. There was tons of kids like me running around. So they know that it's true. They just don't care. It's just inconvenient for them. And what do you think happened with Tom and so with first his first marriage or second marriage was with the Cole Kidman and they adopted two kids and then they break up and she never has any never sees those kids again. Right. Yeah. What do you think happened in that situation? So I remember speaking to my aunt, Shelley Miss Gavage at the time when like Tom Cruise was getting back into Scientology and she basically told me that Nicole Kidman, her dad was like a psych, a psychologist or a psychiatrist, which is like the devil in Scientology. So basically because of that and Nicole wasn't like as much into Scientology like Tom was, she was seen as somebody who was like badly influencing him and was keeping him away from his full potential in Scientology. And so she was like sort of like bad news. So it's my understanding that Scientology basically orchestrated him seeing her as the devil and then splitting up and then that's when he like went full on into Scientology. And do you think in her case, you know, the kids were adopted, but she, you know, was with the kids in the beginning. I just wonder if she just couldn't fight it like between being an actress, him, the being adopted. I don't know what, why she forgot just forwent or whatever you call it for. That's not a word, but like, hey, that she just went that she just gave up. Yeah. Like, okay, I'll marry someone else and have, you know, the kids with with Keith Urban and like she never saw those kids again. Do you just think it was just too overwhelming the power? No, I don't think it was for lack of trying. Like I believe that's what I'm saying. Yeah, very hard, but the kids were essentially brainwashed and had been in Scientology for many years. And so there comes a point like even when my parents were out of Scientology and I was still in, if they had said one bad word about Scientology, I never would have spoken to them. So you have to like, you have to like, there's like this line that you have to like make it clear that you're there for them no matter what. And you love them and you have to be a nice person so that when they're ready, they will come to you, but you can't force the issue. And so honestly, I, that's what I believe that she was doing. And so then he gets with, you know, Katie Holmes and they have Suri. And then they, they break up. And from everything that we've read, he has never seen Suri really. Right. And now she's like 19 or something. And so what do you think happened there? Do you think that, that, you know, she realized, oh, shit, you know, I'm not going to lose my dog. This is what I think. I think maybe like any buddy that gets married and fall in love, you realize like this isn't really this Tom. You know, many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many Like maybe he was like this isn't that. Can you this relationship with her? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, basically once Katie would have pulled that maneuver and like divorcing him and it looks bad on him publicly and it looks like it's because of Scientology, she would have then been considered a suppressive person. And like, you know, as having sort of done something to prove Scientology is psychotic so publicly. And so if somebody is a suppressive person, you can't even be connected to them through a child. You have to disconnect to anyone who is connected to them. So because Katie is her mom and is not going to let go of custody, I actually believe that he signed over sole custody as a sacrifice he would do for Scientology and for not being connected to a suppressive person, which is her mom. And then what about the mystery of your aunt, Shelly, and where she's been for the last 15 years, whatever it's been. Right. I mean, it's a little bit, it's a little bit. Well, I don't personally believe that Shelly was ever missing. Like she was reported missing, but she by somebody like several like maybe six years after they last saw her, Shelly wasn't somebody who spoke at Scientology events. She wasn't necessarily a public person. She was somebody who maybe would have like been at a party with Leah Remini. And but it's not like, like everybody there is in a cult. So you can't really say that they're missing. Yeah. Not somebody who you're expected to see every day. So I understand Leah being like, well, they wouldn't answer my question. Where is she? And that's weird. But also Leah doesn't necessarily have a right to know where she is. And Scientology, who at this point hates Leah Remini, isn't exactly going to be like, you know, breaking their backs to answer her questions. I always remember like her being like, okay, so she takes J.Lo to the Tom Cruise wedding and they put J.Lo on a different table and they didn't want her at that table. And then she's like, where is Shelly? And I feel like there's something in that story that like switched her to this, to be like pissed on in a few levels. Like, oh, you think my best friend J.Lo is a bigger star than me. You're trying to recruit her and you're, and I'm being seen as the less famous person. So that probably pissed off her ego. And then, and then that's kind of, I think then when she just like really turned because I always tell when I was doing Chelsea lately, she was friends with Chelsea and we would had some jokes about Scientology back then before it would be like, I would watch you back then. Anyhow, that before we even talked about, and we did something where we like, did something about Scientology and we like photoshop like an alien like working at the office like with a copy machine or something. And then the next day she said she heard from Leah who was like, hey, Chelsea, you know, can you lay off of the jokes? And so then Chelsea's like, we can't do this anymore. And then there was something else that happened. And I was like, wait a minute. And I like figured out that whatever Leah Rebney was doing, she was either traveling or something. And I was like, Chelsea, there's no way she could have watched the show. And I'm like, I think they have Scientology people that are assigned to our show. And she is the vessel that. So and then eventually she got out and it's all fine. But it's just like when she was doing all that stuff, I'm like, I hope she knows what like a bully she was, you know, and getting people to shut up and everything for all those years. And but at least she's, you know, she's sharing the truth now. Right. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's what that's the kind of thing that they use celebrities for, you know, for influence, whether it's in a TV show or having them go speak to Congress to get certain Scientology programs into schools, things like that. That's what that's why they treat them so well. But yeah, I believe that after Leah got pissed off about not sitting next to JLo and asking where Shelly is, they actually punished her after for like quite a bit of time where they forced her to do interrogation. And then that's when she wound up leaving. I mean, she had to be questioned by them, like do certain hours. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So similar to what they're always trying to do to me. Yeah. She probably had an experience in on that level at that time. So that was like more of her first taste of that where I had been like experiencing that since I was a kid. Right. You know, so I guess sometimes just when something doesn't, like when it's happening to someone else, you know, it's you don't really feel it until it's happening to you. Absolutely. That's so true about so many things or someone that's a horrible person to a lot of people, even if it's not to level of like, you know, what you dealt with. And then people are like, well, it was nice to me. I don't, I mean, I don't know. I don't know the story and you're like, but I told you the story. Like you know it. Like, and then when it does happen to you, you're, you look back and you're like, oh, well, yeah, I was enjoying it too. And it wasn't when I wasn't really, really willing to face it. I know that you wrote a book and tell everybody where they can find that and follow you because you're doing a lot of videos and doing a lot of interesting things. You're continuing to expose it. And in your exposure and writing of the book has the backlash ever been, you know, super terrifying or, or something would have made you stop? I mean, just crazy things like being followed by PIs, having certain people being inserted into my ex-husband and my life to sort of spy on us. But I do think that I get the better, like other people they really, really go after. I think that I have the benefit of having my last A&B miscavige and that they would be the first people that anybody would suspect if something happened to me. So I think that they like kind of maybe chill a little bit, but it's still like, you know, they still went out of their way to try to destroy my family after we left Scientology and my marriage. So, yeah, but my book is called Beyond Belief, My Secret Life, Inside Scientology and My Heroin Escape and you can buy it on Amazon. My YouTube channel is Genomyscavige. My TikTok is Genomyscavige. My Instagram is the real Genomyscavige because somebody stole the Genomyscavige name. So. And when, when Leah was doing her show, were you approached by them at any point and doing anything with that show? I was approached at that time and I just, there was a few things going on. Like I was raising my kids and then also like, you know, the guy that was involved, he had been a really big part of sort of trying to ruin my life. Mike, Mike, Mike Rinder. Rinder. Yeah, yeah. And so I, yeah, I didn't, I don't know. I felt like we, I never like really got an apology from him and it was just like, yeah, I mean, I think they did a great job in the show. Like I think that they told so many people's stories and, and such an important way. So like when I look back at it, now I'm like, wow, they did, they did really did a great job and they really got the word out there. But at the time that's kind of what I was thinking. Are you surprised that it's still that people are, I can see why people are still in it, but I'm like shocked that anybody would join it new with everything that's out there now. How could someone join? Do you think they're getting any new people? I do think they are, but yes. I mean, many people who are their parents like are in and then their kids are getting in. So I think that's a big part of it. But I mean, they get, they get to people in sneaky ways. They have all these front groups. They have like Narcanon, Criminon, Citizens Commission on Human Rights, all of these organizations that are really Scientology, but they get people like without them knowing that's what it is or even whole business programs. People get recruited through business, but it's called World Institute of Scientology Enterprises. So it's just like there's so many little scams going on where they get people. Yeah. I came across some weird like, you know, TikTok video of like people being interviewed in a show that kind of was trying to look like vice or something. You know, that those shows like a documentary. And it was just these no name people then saying that like, oh, Leah Remini was, you know, horrible on set. She was so mean. And I started to look it up and then they talk about this other guy and I go, who's this other guy? And I look him up and they're all Scientologists that they're attacking. And I'm like, well, this is just, they're just trying to make it look like a show. So then you come across it and you, you don't really do the research and you're like, oh, Leah Remini is like a bitch on set or whatever, you know, just like you hear about anybody telling on celebrities, you know, just to completely still, you know, trash their name. Yeah. They do these production quality videos and they just get people to come on and absolutely trash ex Scientologists. And the sad thing is usually like their family members or it's usually like their ex like best friends. And it's like, you know, not only that is a horrible thing to do to somebody like publicly, but it's also like, it sort of discourages you from speaking out. It discourages many people from speaking out. And so are you connected with your parents now? I do, I am connected with them like they're out of Scientology, but you know, it has been a little bit up and down and whatever. Like, unfortunately, once you leave Scientology, not everything goes away. You know, you don't just like miraculously get your whole childhood back. Right. So it's had good moments and it's had bad moments. And I just kind of think that it's like something that you work through and deal with for the rest of your life pretty much. Yeah. Well, this has been so interesting. I'm really glad that we got to connect again and and hear about it because it's been a minute. I feel like, you know, people were such a big hot topic and then it's kind of like, and then, but there's still all these unanswered questions. So thank you for answering them. And I appreciate you so much. Thank you. I'll tell everybody where they can follow you one more time. Okay. So my book is called Beyond Belief, My Secret Life in Sight Scientology and My Heroin Escape. You can find it on Amazon and my YouTube channel is just Jenna Muscavige. My TikToks Jenna Muscavige and my Instagram is the real Jenna Muscavige. Got it. All right. Thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day. Thank you. Yeah, you too. Bye.