Watching You | 5. Breaking Point

Listen to all episodes of Watching You ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge. Visit The Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, or visit getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Binge. Feed your true crime obsession. So I've noticed this pattern lately in my life. I'll be shopping online. Doesn't matter if it's clothes, something for the house, or something I absolutely don't need, but suddenly deeply want. And I'll get to the checkout and think, okay, here we go. 15 steps, passwords. Okay, where's my wallet? And then I see it, that purple shop pay button. And I genuinely feel relieved. I'm like, hallelujah, because I know in about three seconds, I will be done. One tap, no login spiral, no typing my entire address for the 10,000th time. is just done. That button is powered by Shopify, which is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses worldwide and about 10% of all e-commerce in the US. That's right. 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I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart, and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago. And you can all go listen to it ad-free by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink, Jake Handel's Story. I created it about a man named Jake, who I met, who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story. It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet. My goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen and subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com. The Binge. Hey y'all, wanted to let you know Verbal abuse and domestic violence are a part of this story It's a cautionary tale to listen to with caution When I was a kid, I remember spending long days in the summer outside Playing sports, riding bikes, bouncing on my friend's trampoline Sometimes I'd lie down in the grass and just stare up at the clouds. And if I looked closely enough, I'd see little movements, tiny specks undulating on the surface of my eyes, blood cells moving quietly across my vision. A movement that, most of the time, I never noticed. I imagine that's how this long stretch of time felt to everyone involved in the murder case of Nikki Lylee. Chris Ford and John Richter were building a case as quickly as they could under a suffocatingly mountainous body of evidence. Sometimes an indictment seemed to be just around the corner, and other times it felt impossibly far away. Nikki was found in July of 2011. About six months later, in the new year, Matt moved Amanda and her younger sister Rebecca to Vermont, to the small town of Londonderry. He hadn't been charged with anything. He did seem, though, to be in quite a hurry. It was such a rush. I remember we weren't even really fully packed, and it was like that morning my dad was like, we have to go, we're leaving today. There was still like loose things on the floor that we just ended up leaving, because it was like, we're going right now. And we drove up to Vermont in like two days. We had like moving trucks in our two of them in our driveway. And he was like, don't worry about that. Like they're going to come pick them up after we leave. But we have to go today. He made it seem like a fresh start. Something he was doing to get them out of the spotlight. I remember him saying something like, because at the time it was like even more so like how my house was no longer my home. Because it was just I couldn't even go outside and play anymore because there was just news crews always. Saving the girls from the prying eyes of the news cameras had the knock-on effect of getting them away from the rest of the family. Her older sister, Alex, was devastated. They felt like they were my kids in a way. And so when they left, it just was, I didn't lose a mom. I lost a mom and two sisters. And I mean, I knew from the get-go who killed her. There was no question in my mind. And so for me, their safety became, it was terrifying. The court did allow mandated visits between Amanda, Rebecca, and their grandparents. But Alex was not invited. I remember explicitly, my dad was like, Alex cannot be there. She cannot be alone with you. You cannot talk to her. And if she is, you have to call me. You have to call the police. She cannot be there. For Alex, her sisters remained just out of reach. And for them, she became a twisted story, a yarn Matt spun. Like that's kind of when the poisoning against my mom's side of the family started was, well, Amy's saying this and Alex is saying this and kind of feeding this idea of they're trying to take our dad away from us. Eventually it did kind of turn into this, we don't want to talk to them. We don't want to see them. They're trying to take us away from our dad or put him in jail for something he didn't do. So together with their dad, the girls started over. An A-frame cabin in rural Vermont. New school, new friends. Same dark, unclear history now in the rear view, they thought. But for Alex, there were no new beginnings. The tragedy was, in fact, moving into its third act. Last time Matt came for her, it wasn't a fair fight. She was a kid. Now, she summoned the courage to reclaim her family and justice for Nikki. I didn't want him being paid to kill my mom. So I was like, I don't care if the insurance company never pays this anywhere. Like, you're just not going to get paid to do this. From Sony Music Entertainment, you're listening to Watching You. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Episode 5. Breaking Point. I've been thinking a lot lately about how nice it is to have a few pieces in your closet you can just rely on. The ones you reach for without overthinking it and somehow always feel put together when you put them on. That's exactly where Quince shines. They focus on premium fabrics, thoughtful design, and everyday essentials that feel effortless and dependable even as the seasons change. I've been eyeing this Mongolian cashmere oversized crewneck sweater in Heather Gray. I just love that it has this like oversized comfortable look that's still incredibly luxurious. It feels like the kind of sweater you'd reach for constantly. Something that's incredibly comfortable but still elevated. You know you can wear it over jeans maybe over a button-up. 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Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to quinc.com slash cases for free shipping and 365 day returns. Sabrina. Corinne. I have been listening to a new show from The Binge called Fatal Fantasy. I am obsessed. Wait, I need to know more. Tell me. Tell me everything. Okay, I will. It's very shocking. It's this like ultra weird crime story of a murder for hire plot that- What? Yeah, wait for it. Leveraged the dynamics of the underworld and underworld being a medieval fantasy game. Wait so it live action role playing gone wrong horribly wrong and you can binge all episodes now oh my god that sounds so good I know what I doing on my drive home today Search for Fatal Fantasy and subscribe to the Binge Podcast channel on Apple Podcasts or at getthebinge.com. And then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait for the next month's drop. I really need to know what happens. Selfishly, you do so that we can talk about it. So whenever you listen, search for Fatal Fantasy and hit subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes all at once ad-free. It took a long time to build a criminal case against Matt Lylee. Years. During that time, Nikki's sister Amy tried to accept what she couldn't change. She knew that Gwinnett and Vermont police were keeping an eye on Matt and the girls, but it felt far away to her. I was like, you know what? To me, he's gone. And it was sad to me that the girls were also gone. But again, nothing I could do about it. So I just had to mourn that loss and move on the best I could. But Alex couldn't move on. She couldn't sleep. She was consumed. Alex was in this fight the whole time. Of course, she was living her life and working, you know, doing day-to-day things. but she was still in that fight that entire time. That is staggering to me. And it was that persistence that brought the case against Matt Lylee into sharper focus. It all started when Alex refused to let Matt get Nikki's remains after the autopsy. He was going to try to, like, cream at her, bury her, take possession of her body. He tried to have his own service, And I was like, no, no, you don't get to bury her. You don't get to do that. No. So I had to sue him for her remains, won that in court. Alex got to have a funeral for her mother at a church in Athens. But it was bittersweet because her sisters weren't there. Amanda knew the funeral was happening. It wasn't necessarily that he didn't allow us to go, but he made it feel like it was our decision not to go. A decision, mind you, he was leaving up to the discretion of girls, nine and 12 years old. Basically the way he framed it was, oh, so mommy's funeral's today. Do you guys want to go? Do you guys want to go to mommy's funeral? He said, yes, of course. And then he was like, okay, but I'm not invited. They're not letting me go. and so it was basically like, okay, now we had to choose between supporting our dad or getting that closure with our mom and saying goodbye to her. And so he basically framed it as, like looking back, you can very clearly tell, like he's telling us he doesn't want us to go. Amanda and Rebecca at this point understand only that their mother had died, tragically, that she'd left late one Friday night and never returned. that their sister and aunt believed their dad had killed her. It's as though the girls were on opposite sides of soundproof glass, shouting into the void. Alex was, no doubt, the loudest voice. And I was like, no, sir, you're not. You might not be arrested yet, but you're a prime suspect in this investigation. And so I sued him. I sued him for the rights to her body, and I sued him over the life insurance. And I was like, nope. It turned out Nikki, as a breadwinner, had the foresight to take out multiple life insurance policies. She had three with State Farm. They were worth a half a million dollars, payable at the time of death. And the primary beneficiary was none other than Matt Lylee. So Alex's lawyer, a man named Noel Benedict, gave her some advice. You need to sue for wrongful death to stop the life insurance from being paid to him. He was like, you need to stop the life insurance. And the only way to do that right now is to file a civil suit because he's not being charged criminally right now. That's how Alex, all of 19 years old, opened up another front in her ongoing battle with Matt. It was terribly hard, but necessary. There's a lot of history there. Sorry, I don't talk about that very well. But there was a lot of abuse as a very young child, even as young as four years old. So I think my backbone just comes from needing to survive and find a way away from him my whole life. State Farm started a routine investigation, as they do in cases of homicide, into whether or not Matt was involved. Because in Georgia, a murderer can't get insurance proceeds, even if they are the beneficiary. He pleads his case on calls with them. He told one agent that he hasn't been charged or arrested and protested his innocence. He also told Carol, that's the name of the agent, that his wife's family blamed him and thought he was controlling. He denied he was. One time in September, about six weeks after Nikki's murder, was particularly revealing. Two State Farm agents were comparing notes about Matt, and they not only caught him in a lie, they found possible evidence of premeditation. Carol said Matt told her that he didn't know about the life insurance policies. Her male colleague explained that he had email conversations with Matt about Nikki's policies months ago. In other words, before she was murdered. So, Alex's lawyer, Noel Benedict, had advised her to sue Matt for wrongful death. But before that happened, State Farm filed a civil action of their own to determine whether or not they should pay Matt the money or whether the insurance payout should go to Nikki's girls. At one point, a bunch of Nikki's family members got deposed. At question for Matt's attorney was the notion that Nikki's family was simply prejudiced against him. that her murder, the questions around the timeline of her disappearance, the clear signs of abuse, were all part of an orchestrated attempt to pin her death on him. And so Matt's lawyer, when he's talking to Alex during her deposition, leaned in. You, and I don't think this is a secret, you dislike Matt Lyley. Yes. You hate Matt Lyley. Yes. And have you ever liked Mr. Lylee? No Do you believe Mr. Lylee is a monster? Yes And have you sent Mr. Lylee a text message that says that you want him to rot in jail? Yes And have you posted on Facebook that you think Mr. Lylee is a piece of shit? Yes And do you believe that in fact would be the case? Yes Okay, there's something truly bizarre going on here. And something I've noticed time and again digging into this case. Matt's defense rests on this idea that it mattered that Alex wanted him to rot in prison. That she called him a piece of shit on Facebook. But does it really? Because Matt's not fighting to become class president. He's fighting for his freedom. It seems to me that he took the bait and made the insurance payout dispute personal. And by doing that, exposed himself in other ways. And this suit, the money at stake, it was enough to bring him back into the sight lines of the Gwinnett County homicide investigators. When, in 2015, he came down to Atlanta to testify. Once and for all, lawyers for Matt and Alex would each plead their case regarding the insurance payout in federal court. With Matt coming back to Georgia to testify, Richter and the team saw an opportunity. But it was not without risk. Yes, it was a debate. Matt's story had changed depending on who he was talking to. Footage from the night Nikki disappeared was missing, and it was clear that Matt had had something to do with its disappearance. He'd surveilled his own family for years. But when you think about it, is that enough to convict him of murder? Would a jury really put him behind bars for life? Lisa Jones, the assistant DA, knew they needed a contingency. And they got one by filing a different charge against Matt. Oh, there was lots of planning that went into that, which is why we took the eavesdropping warrants to start with. Because we were trying to figure out a little bit more. And it was difficult because we could, again, he was in Vermont and he had left and, you know, gone. and we knew that he was coming back here for the federal trial on the life insurance. And so we knew that he was going to be here for that trial, which would make our lives a lot easier if he was local. And we did not have to take arrest warrants for him in Vermont and then have to have him extradited from Vermont to Georgia. And Richter told me he was afraid to serve Matt a warrant in Vermont, that it might endanger the girls. And also we wanted the opportunity to surprise, the element of surprise, quite frankly, just to see because, you know, he's coming back to try to claim his insurance policy on his wife, who we firmly believed at that point and thought we had enough evidence to charge him that he was the one responsible. We absolutely didn't want him getting that insurance money. We wanted the daughters to get what they were entitled to and not him to benefit from it. But it was kind of the idea of let figure this out So they went after him on another charge eavesdropping We had those recordings where we knew that he recorded Nikki like I said talking to her dad talking to her sister And it was clear she had no idea that he was going. So there were times where she'd talk about him, you know, to them and that sort of thing. And clearly had no idea that he's listening to all of it. And in an ironic twist to fate, as Matt boarded a plane from Vermont to Georgia, he had no idea that he was now the one being watched by U.S. Marshals in plain clothes who had boarded the flight with him en route to Atlanta, his final destination. Amy will never forget the day Matt showed up in court. Though she wasn't there. She was at a Purim carnival at her synagogue. It's a Jewish holiday where you dress up in costume. I was dressed as Sally from The Nightmare Before Christmas. So I had like this big old ragdoll wig and like, you know, stitches, you know, on my face. I looked ridiculous. That's when Alex called her from the courtroom. So she's like, oh my God, Amy, it was a miracle. She said, he testified and he just kept talking and he wouldn't shut up. And she was like, it was like he had diarrhea of the mouth. He was like all over the place and contradicted himself a bajillion times. And she was giddy about it. She was like, oh, my God. They had no idea what was about to go down. And what we didn't know at the time, but we found out a couple hours later, was that the courtroom was crawling with plainclothes Gwinnett police, including John Richter. And so they were all there, sitting there, watching him perjure himself, basically, in federal court. And then they waited for the court proceedings to be over that day, and they arrested him. I was stunned. I was like, oh my God, wow. I had gotten to a point where, like I said, like a point of acceptance. Where I was like, okay, this is the world I live in now. Is that my sister was murdered by her husband and the son of a bitch got away with it. That was the reality that I had been living in for five years. He was arrested in the courthouse. They stopped him and arrested him that day. Alex was already driving back home. And I was like, damn it, I missed it. Like, I just, because apparently he kind of put up a fight. Evidently, my understanding is that he resisted when they arrested him and that it was quite a show. And at one point, I think he mouthed off to him and was like, oh, whatever, you know, I'm going to be out on bond tomorrow and blah, blah, blah. And the whole time Richter's like, yeah, buddy, we're booking you for murder. You're not getting bond. Here's how Richter said it went down. Donut is the first thing he says now. Dion, my partner, Washington, he's a big guy, right? And he's putting the handcuffs on. I'm standing there telling him, you're under arrest, blah, blah, blah. Just like TV, right? So he's like, don't hurt me. He's 6'5", he's 260. Don't hurt me. Oh, those cuffs, that's such a little, you know what I mean? Like, he's a big tough guy when he's sitting on Strahl and Nikki and abusing her verbally and physically. But when the cops were arresting him, Matt asked them to not hurt him. Nearly four years after John Richter made that promise in the woods, they found Nicky's body, he delivered. Matt was placed in the front seat of Richter's unmarked detective car. And now we're driving back, right? This is a good 40-minute drive, and I want to talk to him. I want this guy to talk to me. He goes to sleep. That's how, you know, that's how concerned he was. He just dozed off. You know, I'm not just trying to shoot this shit. I'm trying to build rapport. I know him. He thinks I'm an idiot. He sends it over, not me personally, but the police in general. And that's something you don't forget when someone says, oh, those cops are all just stupid. He already told us in the car. I ain't talking to you. But we like to sit down, put him in the chair, right, and read him his rights. And that's when I told him, you know, not just the eavesdropping warrant, but you're being charged with murder as well. Alex slept well that night for the first time in a long time. I don't think my grief process started until he was arrested. I don't think I even processed that she was dead until he was arrested. Because all I, I didn't sleep at night. I mean, I lived on Klonovan, to be perfectly honest, because it's the only way I could sleep. Because I was scared he was coming for me. And rightfully so, because I'm pretty sure he wanted to bury me and I'm the bitch he was talking about. in that call. Paul, I want to bury the bitch. I want to bury the whole fucking family. Matt was assigned a public defender. The trial date was set. It's astonishing how effective Matt had been at keeping Alex from his daughters. While he was behind bars awaiting trial, Amanda and Rebecca stayed with Matt's father at that cabin in Vermont. Matt's car sat unused, his things unmoved. Everything in that house was supposed to be on pause until he got back. You couldn't touch his car because he was coming back. It was never touched, never driven. He was coming back and that was all of his stuff. And their job, in the meantime, was to help him get out. I basically became his lawyer because he didn't trust the public defender. And so the phone calls were every single day. We were probably talking to him for like three hours a day. And even like the ones where I'm not really talking, like I was on the phone. Like we had two lines and we would be on separate phones on the same line. So it's like even like where like I would answer the phone and like maybe say something. And then he'd have me put Amanda on. Like I'm still on the line, like the same. The girls had to be ready to take his call. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now. I don't know. I told the man to do it, and she was like, and she was like, you can do it. Get the iPod and plug it in. And I was like, I don't know where to plug it in. You guys have your fun. Okay? Have your fun. When I get home, both of you say goodbye to your lives outside the house. that includes sports, boyfriends, everything. So have your fun now. Okay? Because when I get home, it's going to be different. You may start the conversation now. Make a note of this. Granddaddy, when I was talking to him, he flat out says, I never knew nothing. They don't tell me nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need on tape. Okay. I need you to, this week, up until January or whatever, and you're going to have to go back and review some of those recordings and find some juicy stuff that we can use for our evidence. I need you to find that cassette recorder and the power cord for you. Don't forget, because if I call you tomorrow and decide to do it or something, I don't want you to say, oh, I didn't call you and do this and that. I mean, I might as well just go to fucking prison. I'm tired of reminding you 16 times to do something. I mean, this is just too much trouble. It really is. I have more stress over getting you to do something Did you even tell Pop about the fucking bills? Yeah. Oh, no, I was going to tell him later. It was basically, I'd go to school. I'd come home. I'd try and get as much homework as I could done before he called. And then he would call, and he'd ask, oh, did you do this, this, and this? Hey, Daddy. Hi. All right, listen, I've got to ask you for something, and I'm probably going to have to threaten you and everything else, okay? I need you by Monday to write a report on all eight or nine videos. The first line will be, this video is from the wrongful death deposition dated blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I need that by Monday. This is life or death. I need it by Monday for all videos. If you don't do it by Monday, I will take your phone away forever. Okay. This is my life. You understand? Yes, sir. Sometimes I could lie and get away with it, or sometimes he'd call me out on it, like, oh, did you hear this part? And I'd say, oh, yeah, I heard that. And he's like, oh, well, that wasn't in that recording, so you're lying. So, like, I'd get in trouble for not doing the lawyer homework. He responded because I was doing my school homework instead. And, like, I'd tell him, like, I'm sorry I had this big assignment for AP Bio. And he's like, well, do you want me to come home or not? There was one point where he was like do you love me So it became like if he was found guilty it was my fault I did not do enough research. I did not do my job. The research he was talking about was about her mom's murder. She had to listen to all the same recordings that John Richter did. He's got me researching what wines have caused the highest GHB levels. to use for his defense. GHB is a chemical commonly found in the so-called date rape drug. The toxicology report had noted elevated levels of it in Nikki's body after she died. Matt's demands on Amanda and Rebecca were unrelenting. Their lives were basically consumed with his legal problems. Perhaps the most egregious example of Matt using the girls for his protection was the YouTube videos. The YouTube videos, we released them right before the bail hearing. Amanda cut them all herself. We need to make sure our side of the story gets out. Everything's always all been that side of the family. I know once my mom married my dad, she finally started standing up for herself and started saying no and started saying that she wanted nothing to do with her family. and they've never liked my dad. And I've been reading things online. I've been watching the news and I can see the hatred that they have for my dad. And it's just ridiculous, the lies they're spreading. We need to get our story out so then the public knows. And I don't remember if he actually said this or if he just like kind of insinuated, But I think part of it was to also, prior to the trial, make sure that jury members or possible jury members would see this stuff and he could sway them before the trial. The videos take aim at Nikki, claiming she heard voices the morning she called 911. They imply that her father might have had something to do with her death. He was a retired chemist for the EPA. It's funny if you knew our grandfather. He's the sweetest goofball. He used to do an impression of Donald Duck all the time. He still does. He still does it. He's a very, very good Donald Duck, too. He's kind of aloof. Like, he's just... He's not plotting the murder of his daughter. Do YouTube videos question the manner and timing in which the body was found? the police who had searched for her body for a week, it's their job to find missing people. And Alex and her sister and Amy managed to go to search parties together and find her body in seven minutes. And the news crews happened to be there to find this all. And I just, I find that really suspicious and really off-putting. And perhaps, given what we know now, the most alarming of claims, that Nikki's own peril inside the relationship with Matt was itself a fabrication. The media and the news, they picked up on a Jerry Springer-type sob story of domestic violence, and they spread it like wildfire all over the place. Honestly, we can't wait to face this family in court and call out their lies, and they've done nothing but cause us pain and torment, and our day in court will come and hopefully my dad will be able to come home. In one video after these words, the screen goes black. Then says, Nikki's voice will be heard and the truth will come out. At least that part was true. Amidst all this chaos with the upcoming trial and Matt's demands, Amanda and Rebecca are so young, 16 and 13 years old, believing or at least behaving as people who believed their dad was innocent. But despite having been through this together, despite sharing a room and a bunk bed, they weren't confidants. We didn't talk much at all. Even while still being scared of him, I still believed he was innocent. And even in the years when he was arrested and as I was saying, like, Amanda and I was just like, it was like two ships in the night. Like, it was like we were not, we didn't really talk to each other. Like, when it was at school, like, it was like people were surprised when they, like, would know that we had the same last name and they're like, are you guys related? And it was like, yeah, she's my sister. But it was like we just didn't have any of that type of relationship. And the relationship between the girls and their grandfather wasn't any better. Legally, he was our guardian, but I was the one that was managing the bank account and making sure bills were paid and making grocery lists and meal plans. Like, he would cook, but it was, okay, this is the meal plan I had set up. Monday night, we're making this. These are the groceries we bought. This was the budget. Making sure that my dad's commissary was paid and the jail phone calls and all of that. Like, he had money in his account. My grandfather didn't do any of that. Rebecca increasingly leaned on her best friend. I basically clung to my best friend at the time, and I was around her 24-7. Like, I was either at her house, she lived not too far down the road, or she was at mine. And I feel horrible that I put her in that position, but she did become that shield for me. And my grandfather would still scream at me in front of her. They would fight about little things, like who left the ceiling fan on. But Rebecca and Amanda remember someone who, like his son, their dad, could be combative and angry. These girls no longer had a father or a mother. They barely seemed to have each other at that time. And the environment they were living in was neither supportive or loving from their accounts. But when their father finally went on trial for the murder of their mother, they testified on his behalf. They tried to convince the world what they had been led to believe, that he couldn't possibly have killed their mother. Is this gentleman here your dad? Yes. Okay. And you love him, right? Of course. Very briefly, describe the relationship that your mom and dad had. They loved each other. Did they ever fight, argue? They did argue, yes. Did you ever see your dad hit your mom? No. Did you ever see any obvious injuries or bruises to your mom? No, sir. Next time, the series finale of Watching You. Matt Liley is on trial for Nikki's murder. I remember when the lawyer asked if I loved my dad. The blocking kicked in that I had been taught, and I remember saying, yes. And then I remember turning and looking at my dad like it was like that was the director. The conviction brings justice, but doesn't bring closure. I've trashed my mom to the world. I've made her out to be crazy. And for the first time in many years, Nikki's girls come together to pick up the pieces. It's a work in progress because I genuinely believe it's all born out of fear of losing one or the other. because we've all lost each other in some capacity already. And so we feel like we'd rather have a little thread than nothing at all. true crime and investigative podcasts, all ad-free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series. That's all episodes, all at once. Search for The Binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Not on Apple? Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. watching you is an original production of sony music entertainment it's hosted and reported by me jonathan hirsch jason hoke of waveland media is our lead producer and co-reported the series with me katherine st louis is our story editor from sony music entertainment the executive producers are katherine st louis and jonathan hirsch sound design and mixing by scott somerville We use music from Epidemic Sound and APM. Our fact checker is Naomi Barr. Our production managers are Tamika Balance-Kalazny and Sammy Allison. Our lawyer is Minakshi Krishnan. Special thanks to Steve Ackerman, Emily Rosick, Jamie Myers, and the whole team at Sony Podcasts. If you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and leave us a review. Thank you so much for listening. Transcription by CastingWords