Epstein Survivor Anouska de Georgiou Tells All

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And from the years of 1993 on for about six years where the sexual abuse, physical abuse, violence was at its worst, Jeffrey Epstein, his co-conspirator, Gillian Maxwell, engaged in horrors to Anushka DeGiorgia. I want to bring on Anushka because after I reported on Anushka, Anushka and I met and I wanted and we started having conversations about the files well before they were produced and the importance to the community of survivors to these documents being released. Anushka, it's an honor to have you here and to have you be able to tell your story on our platform, which I think is really important. I want to take people back and I want to hear from you about those years, what's happened since then, the prosecutions, the arrests, but let's just start with where we are right now as we are in early February. A partial release of the Epstein files was released last week on Friday, three million documents. We know there are still more that are being concealed and covered up, which could be tens of millions of pages because the documents have multiple pages. Trump's Department of Justice says they're not going to be releasing anything that they're done. They have not produced a report about their redactions or why they are withholding certain documents and producing others and the survivors, including yourself, have come forward and talked about the retraumatization by this Trump Department of Justice, where they provide identifying information, personal information about you and other survivors that can be read in these files when they had one job, which was to protect the identity of survivors. So with that, just to build that foundation, I just want to hear from you first about your reaction to the release of the partial release of the files and the way Donald Trump's Department of Justice has handled it and Trump's statements. Okay, thank you so much, Ben, and I really appreciate you covering this and being so compassionate towards myself and my fellow survivors. The recent dump of files I'm just kind of horrified by, and it's a kind of retraumatization that in some ways, I mean, because the worst, the actual experiencing it is over, experiencing the abuse, but the fact that the very people who are meant to lead this country, who are meant to protect the innocent and the vulnerable and stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves, have completely retraumatized us, it's like being raped by the Department of Justice, because we are exposed, we're vulnerable, I mean, I'll just speak for myself, but when I was contacted by a journalist via my attorneys, Brad Edwards and Brittany Henderson, and they said, you know, because I had said, oh, is there is anything about me in the release of the files? And honestly, I had no idea that some of these documents even existed. So when they said yes, and then they sent me the documents, I mean, I had to pull over, I was driving, and I was on a retreat with my daughter, and I had to stop, and I looked at these documents, and everything went into slow motion, because my addresses, my driver's license with my picture, my signature, my phone numbers, notes from the government, that were, I mean, I was compelled to give testimony in the Maxwell trial, and therefore, I was also compelled to give an honest, an honest, you know, amount of information on my life, and notes on everything personal that had ever happened to me, and all those were released. And you can't put that back in, you know, there are other survivors who I know have been exposed in a way that may be far more injurious, because they had previously always been anonymous. And just to be clear, you know, many people have written to me on social media and said, well, if you're already out and talking about being a survivor with your own name, then what's wrong with having your information out there? Well, first of all, I wasn't, it wasn't my choice to be public about this. It was my choice to speak in my own name at the dismissal hearing of Epstein's charges after he died. But it was not my choice to be outed on the internet, and on these various different, by these various different trolls at the trial. Okay. And it actually, you know, the judge was very specific about protecting the identity of the people who did not want to come forward with their own name. I have a child, I have a business, I'm a mental health professional, I do not and did not want to be public about this. So I was outed. And then I thought, okay, listen, it's ridiculous to remain anonymous when many people really know exactly who I am. So I thought, how can I be helpful? And how can I use this to create some kind of purpose from this betrayal? So now, once again, that's happened. And it's happened on a scale that puts me and other survivors in physical, legal, and emotional danger. So right now, day by day, and bear in mind, I spoke at the dismissal hearing in 2019, the end of 2019. And now we're at the beginning of 2026. So this is years and years of this isn't a story that's like come and gone, this has been a consistent story. And to continue to be living that but now to feel like I'm looking over my shoulder. And I'm also having abusive messages and exploitative messages and threatening messages sent to me, things coming to my door. It's, it's disgraceful. And, you know, I love this country. And that's why I moved here 21 years ago. And I don't know, could it be incompetence? I mean, I hope no one's that incompetent. And if it's not incompetence, then it must be deliberate. And if that's true, then everybody responsible for that deliberate betrayal of the victims should be held responsible. Anoushka, you mentioned you've been in the United States now for 21 years. But let's rewind even before that. Anoushka, did Georgia 16 years old, you come into contact with a Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell makes an introduction to a Jeffrey Epstein at the age of 16. Where were you? When did this happen? How did you meet Ghislaine? And how was that introduction to Jeffrey Epstein taking place? Sure. So I had recently moved back from the south of France, where I had been at school, back to London, in England, where I'm from, with my mother. And so I was sort of moving to a place that I was not familiar with. And, you know, I had had some difficulties prior to that. So I would say that, you know, it's important to recognize that many of these survivors, myself included, had vulnerability, had instability that made us and therefore me prime targets for this kind of grooming and this kind of abuse. So I was 16 and I traveled to Paris with a male friend who had actually known Ghislaine. And I met her in passing, sort of in the hotel lobby. And she was, I mean, you know, I really didn't have my place in London. I didn't know anyone really there. I didn't have any friends. I was going to school, to high school there, and trying to manage transitioning from a different country and making friends and also trying to complete my studies because I was always very academic and I had applied to and earned a place at Oxford University to read law. And when I met Ghislaine Maxwell, she was extremely impressive. I mean, I will recognize that despite the fact that Ghislaine is a monster. She's a very smart monster. And she knew exactly what to say. And I mean, you know, Jeffrey is a crude, very unpolished person. And there's no way I would be going to his house or entertaining spending time with him. But Ghislaine was everything that I needed and everything that I wanted because I really wanted to, I aspired to be like her. She was kind of almost the age of my parents. And, and you know, she was so interested in me. And it's not often that somebody of that age and that, you know, with that much acclaim takes such an interest in somebody so much younger than them in the way that they want to be friends because we really weren't contemporaries, although we'd had very similar upbringings. And, and she very much leveraged that, you know, Ghislaine went to Marlborough School and I had been to Marlborough School. Ghislaine had studied at Oxford University and I was, I had earned myself a place at Oxford University. I, we both had very powerful, quite domineering fathers. And we both spoke French. So she connected with me. And, you know, now in retrospect, I can see how deliberate that was. But at the time, I just thought this was the most amazing opportunity to have a friend, to have somebody who was interested in helping me in getting to know me. And she excitedly gave me her phone number. She lived very close to my mother's house where I lived. And she encouraged us to stay in touch. And when I got back to London, you know, we, we did stay in touch and she invited me over for tea. I was very excited. I told my mother about it. And I was excited to go and see my new friend, who she had reminded me, you know, that I had so many connections to her. And we had so many things in common. And so I, I got ready and I went and had tea with her. And she asked all the right questions. And of course, now I recognize as a mental health professional, that, you know, the grooming process is very deliberate. And she was very good at it. And she, she was so interested in me. And that's a wonderful feeling for somebody who doesn't really know where they belong. You know, she noticed that I was lonely, that I was vulnerable, that I was shy, that I was trusting, maybe insecure. And, and then she offered kindness and support. And she talked in our first meeting, when we had tea, she talked about this amazing boyfriend that she had. And she said, he's like a philanthropist. And his favorite thing to do is to help young people, especially young women. And, and I was like, Oh, he sounds amazing. And she said, Well, yes, you know, if you're very lucky, you might get to meet him. And so already that seed was planted, that I was going to, you know, possibly have this great opportunity. And when you give somebody that sort of carrot, it's like it makes you, everybody wants something that they might not be able to get. And suddenly it was like, my eyes were like, Oh my God, you know, who is this amazing person? So it wasn't long before she called. And she said, you know, great news, he's here. Can you come? How soon can you come? And so I got myself ready. And I was under the impression that this was like an interview that if I played my cards, right, this would be the key to so many doors opening for me. And for me to get the things that I wanted, not necessarily the things my parents wanted for me. She knew that I was meant to go to Oxford. But she would say to me, that's what your parents want, right? But what do you really want to do? And I wanted to be in music. And she said, Well, let's see what we can do. I, unlike many of the other survivors, I came from a outwardly privileged background. I was not short of money. This wasn't a thing where I was looking to be paid $300 or something. This was a thing where I wanted to belong. And I wanted opportunity and I wanted connection. So when, when she said, you know, this is your chance, come over, I got dressed in my mother's suit, because I wanted in my mother's clothes, because I wanted to look sophisticated. And I ran over there. And from the very moment that I first entered Gillen's house in London, Knightsbridge, I was, I was being groomed. And when I came in, it was very much that thing. And it was small in Gillen's house. It was like a muse house. So it was quite small. And as you walked in, Jeffrey was sitting in the front room, in a chair, in sweatpants. And Gillen answered the door. And she went and sat down. And I was not invited to sit down. So I was standing. And so already there was this sort of like feeling of, Oh, I'm sort of, like, I'm not on the same level as these people, because they're sitting and I'm standing. And I was, he said, Hello, he was on the phone when I came in. And then when, when he got off the phone, which was an uncomfortable amount of time that I was standing waiting by the front door, shifting from foot to foot, nervously wondering if this interview would go well. And then, you know, he, he got off the phone and he said, Oh, is this the one you've told me about? Oh, amazing. And then he asked me all these questions, you know, and Gillen would interject and sort of note my accolades. And, and she's this and she's that. And, you know, as if this was really an interview. And I was waiting to see if I got in kind of thing. So at some point during this strange interaction, and bear in mind, these were people were older. I'm, I'm from England. And we we're taught to spoke when you speak when you're spoken to respect your elders, not question authority. And I mean, I'm 48 years old now. And this, this was in the 90s, we really, we really didn't kind of step out of line. So when I was asked questions, I just answered them. And at that point, Gillen, at some point, Gillen said, Oh, and she's so strong, she has incredibly strong hands. She's strangely strong for a girl her age, you know, and he she'd already mentioned that, you know, I was at school, and that I was going to Oxford University. And she said, Yeah, show them how strong your hands are. And I was kind of like, Okay, like, it was very uncomfortable. And she said, just give us a squeeze. And I felt very uncomfortable. But I felt like it wasn't a bad enough thing to ask that it that I could say no. And it would be I felt like it would be more uncomfortable to say no, than it would be to do it. So, so I did it. And, you know, then I got this praise, right? And this is part of that grooming process as well. You give you give them, you know, they dangle the carrot, they connect with people who are vulnerable. And then when you do something right, they the praise comes. And and all the praise came. And then at some point, the phone rang again, he got on the phone, and she kind of gestured that it was my time to leave, and sort of shuffled me out the door. I never got to sit down. And I was very confused, I felt really sort of spun around. And I got back and, you know, I had told my mother, I have this kind of interview opportunity. And I didn't really know how it went. And then Glenn called and she said, Wow, you know, you did really well. And oh, my God, this is it because he loves you. And and then within a short period, she called me back and she said, Listen, I need I need a favor, I need your help. Jeffrey's massage therapist has canceled and listen, he just is very picky about these things. And he's actually asked for you. And I know this isn't really what you do. But can you come, if you could come right now, that would be really doing a big favor for me, because he's very demanding. And, you know, he's very busy and important. And so I said, Okay, and I went over and, you know, I'm not going to go into the details of of that situation, because it's triggering for me. And it's also triggering, I think, for people to hear, especially if they've been victimized. But the first experience became somewhat sexual. And it was but it was an increments that I could that I now can see they were testing how far they could go. And if it was slightly too far, then it would be pulled back a little bit until the shame came in. And, and, you know, I then once, once a couple of these experiences had happened, I felt dissociated. Some of the time, I also felt ashamed. I certainly felt that I couldn't tell anybody because I wouldn't even know how to begin talking. I mean, I'd never really talked to about sex with anybody. So let alone my parents. So I thought the best thing to do was, you know, hope this just went away. And of course, it didn't go away. It got worse and it got worse. And I went to Palm Beach. And when I was in Palm Beach, it was it was really bad. And I was there. I want to pause there. I want to talk about Palm Beach. And I just want to let at this point, Gilean is 31 years old, right? And in this period, Jeffrey Epstein is 40 years old around this period. You're 16 years old, you're wearing again, as you said, your mom's suit, thinking you're going in for a job interview. After that first experience where it was grab Jeffrey's foot or see how strong you can, you then have the phone call where our massage therapist is in here. We need you to show up. There was the first experience that you described there. And then it got progressively worse. I didn't mean to interrupt you as you talk about Palm Beach. But if this is 1993, do you go to Palm Beach that year after and at this point in time? And again, I don't want you to go into the sexual assault with graphic tears for the reasons that you said. But that starts in 1993. I guess how frequent are the interactions taking place? And then you go to Palm Beach rather and then talk to us about going to Palm Beach and then what happens from there on out? So, you know, I've learned to only speak about what I absolutely sure of. And I will say I had a few interactions before going to Palm Beach. But when I went to Palm Beach, it was about a year and a half later. I think that's going to be too bright. It was about a year and a half later. And so I was just 18 when I went to Palm Beach. And suddenly, I was way out of my league. And I think part of the problem with young people, with minors, is that you always want to think that you can cope with things and you always want to feel sophisticated and feel grown up and feel like you can hang with the big guys and the big girls. But the truth is once I got there, I was totally out of my depth. I didn't have a cell phone in the States. I didn't have any way of contacting anyone outside of the house phone in front of Jeffrey and Gilem. And, you know, I was picked up from the airport and I had no idea where I was. I'd never been to Palm Beach. I'd only ever been. So I was kind of out of my depth. And then suddenly, as the abuse started, and a lot of it was, well, the first instance of abuse that was the first day, and I was jet lagged as well, was initiated by Gilem. And she had, you know, she decided to put an outfit for me on my bed to wear to go and see Jeffrey and bring him his tea. And then the assaults and the rapes began. And at that point, he'd upped the ante and so had she. In terms of, they knew that I couldn't, I had nowhere to go. I wouldn't even have known how to get a taxi to leave. So I think they took advantage of the fact that I couldn't leave and realized that I was just there at their disposal. And that's how I was treated. And at that point, you know, I really started to descend into daily dissociation, drinking more heavily, using substances to try and stop myself from acknowledging what was happening, because I couldn't cope. Are you staying at the house in Palm Beach at this point in time? Is that where you're staying? And then would you go back to London with them and travel? Or was it from there on out was mostly in Palm Beach where you were living for that period of time from 93 to 99? Or what was that like? No, it wasn't living. It was sort of, I mean, by the time Palm Beach had happened, it was very much you come when you're summoned. And there was a lot of summoning. And this structure was set up. You know, nobody talks to Jeffrey directly, right? And this was set up so that there would be this sense of being removed from him because of how important and powerful he is. And so I would see them again in London, or and then I did also go to the island once and and to Paris once. So it was very much set up that you knew that and also I will say in Palm Beach, there were some interactions with other other men, not sexual interactions. But I was, I was around conversations that Jeffrey was having with other powerful men. And it was being reiterated to me and reinforced to me constantly that if you know the right people, and you have enough money, you can do anything you want and never get a consequence. And, you know, I was a smart girl, I knew exactly what that meant. I knew why it was being said in front of me and for my benefit. So I knew that in order to keep safe, I had to keep showing up. And I also at that point was dissociated so much that I felt devalued. And and just, you know, if they, if you were summoned, there was a lot of sense of urgency around it. And that kind of sense of urgency is is infectious, you know, and when there's great urgency and great panic from powerful people, everybody runs around to try and you and also there's the support of all the staff, right? All the staff who were frightened of Gillian, all the staff who were frightened of Jeffrey and Jeffrey screaming and Gillian screaming. So so it was different different places, but it was more like trips or short interruptions over years. And I'll show people the photo of you around this time period as well that you provided to some media outlets. And that was you as a young girl. And I want people to, you know, that you had Epstein in his 40s, Gillian in her mid 30s, at that point as that time progressed, engaging in this horrific rape and abuse of of you. And then one of the things that if if you're as you know, if your name is searched now, you know, people see this article from the Sunday Mirror. And it should be noted that Gillian's father who died in 1991, Robert Maxwell owned this paper. It's called the Sunday Mirror. This was in her family. And so at a at some point in 1997, Gillian planted a story about you to basically imply that Donald Trump was keeping you in a penthouse. And I'll just I'll quickly just share with the audience what this says. Because it seems part of it also was and to be clear, I'll just say from the outset, there was no abuse or sexual abuse from Trump to you. And I just want to make that very clear here. But what there was was a meeting with Trump for an interaction in in New York City and then in Palm Beach, that then let Gillian plant a story that Donald Trump was having a relationship with you that was actually not happening. But that was pushed out there to, I guess, help Gillian and Donald Trump's image together, you know, at this at this, I don't want to speculate the purpose of it. But this was the article right here, how sweet. Trump's Brit of all right. And that's that's a photo of you right there, right? It says party, they called you party girl, Anouska. And it says, just weeks after ditching his second wife, America's best known billionaire Donald Trump has fallen under the spell of a 20 year old English girl, Trump 50, who has failed in his bid to secure the services of Princess Diana's Butler, Paul Burrell was in search of another British trophy. When he met London model Anouska de Georgia at a party in Manhattan, several American millionaires already had their eyes on Anouska. But she was there with Robert Maxwell's daughter, Gillian, who has introduced several of her attractive friends to the property developer. And none of his would be rivals owned a vast mansion in Florida like Donald does. Mar-a-Lago, where I have dined with him and his outgoing wife Mar-a-Lago is enough to make any young girl go weak at the knees after their meeting Trump flu, Madame Maxwell, by the way, they're calling her Madame, and the model South to the Sunshine State, where all three enjoyed a happy weekend together. When they returned to New York, Anouska was installed in one of Donald's many apartments, missed to Georgia likes older men. She went out once or twice with Joanna Lumley's ex husband, Jeremy Floyd, who was 50 years her senior. And then it goes on to say doubtless. This is the start of a long by Trump standards already is friendship already. And so to be clear, you were never holed up in an apartment in the penthouse. I was put in an apartment by Jeffrey and one of one of Jeffrey's apartments that Gillian and Jeffrey put me in. So that's where I was staying in New York. So there were a lot of inaccuracies in this story. And I think one of the things that's very dangerous to survivors is misinformation and disinformation. Because if it doesn't have credibility, and it's not true, then at some point someone discovers that that's the case. And it serves people who would seek to discredit the real facts or the real information. So I was not I did not have a romantic or sexual relationship with Donald Trump in any way. It is true that Gillian brought me there expressly talking about, Oh, he's going to love you, you're just his type, that you know, you should say this and you should wear this. And and she went with me. And but she introduced me to to a couple of other wealthy men when I was when I was there in New York. And, you know, not all of them bad people, but no one that I had a relationship with at the time. Also, just the fact of me going out with Jeremy Lloyd, who's 50 years older than me at the time, that's absolute nonsense. I mean, you know, I knew him and every you can't be attached to someone romantically in, you know, the press just says you're going out with somebody if you're in a photograph with them once or something. So I think that that was a way of making it acceptable and the making it that it was my idea or that I was OK with that. And I wasn't interested in Donald Trump or anybody that age. And the thing that she was doing, though, Gillian with with Trump and some of these other guys, though, was saying, Oh, he's going to love you. Here's what you have to say. Here's what he likes. He's into this and that that that that part is the only kind of true part about that. Is that accurate? Yes. Yes. Okay, let's let's let's fast forward a little bit to Gillian's trial. Gillian gets convicted of child sex trafficking. And it's incredibly difficult for you to have to go through that process there and we relive the trauma that you've shared with us here. But you have to go through it in a trial setting. She's someone who instilled fear and and and and terror and panic. I guess two questions before before I get there. How would you get out of that? Like, I guess, let me ask, I don't want to leave that hole in the story. And then let me go to the how did that part and then let's go to the trial. So one of the coping coping mechanisms that I developed that many survivors develop through this kind of trauma and initiated by this kind of trauma is heavy drinking, medication, abusing medication, those kinds of things. And that was, you know, I became an alcoholic, I became an addict. And and that was the way that I got through it. I also dissociated regularly when I didn't have alcohol to kind of help me to to do that, do that for me. And when I was about 26, so about 10 years through these experiences, I I met somebody who was a friend who introduced me to the possibility of getting sober, getting clean. And and and I really and I really took it and I really went with it. And, you know, I've been sober for 22 years now. And so as I got so sober, I think I started to come back into my body and start to realize the gravity and the extent of some of the things that have happened. And, you know, that was a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing in terms of the fact that I really couldn't, my body just wouldn't go there, you know, and I so I was starting to find more and more excuses to not go. That that being said, I was getting very much too old for for Jeffrey at this point at 26. So, you know, I was quite old for them. In fact, just quickly mentioning something when I was in Palm Beach at 20. Ghilan was joking that I was too old, getting too old now. So, so I, you know, I got sober. I started to my life started to improve in some ways. But I still was unable to maintain good relationships, to really push my career forward. I would get little little bursts of being able to to have successes. And then I would fall into a depression or I would fall into a cycle of, you know, dating abusive people as well. So, that's how I started to get out of it. But I will say that for someone who's experienced these kinds of traumas, you don't get over it. Hopefully, the best thing you can hope for is to develop and discover healthier coping mechanisms, so that when the attacks come when the PTSD comes, when the triggers come, you don't turn it in on yourself and you don't destroy yourself or kill yourself. So, then Jeffrey Epstein dies under these mysterious circumstances. And now with a lot of the reporting casts a lot more questions than even existed before. But we don't have to get into that in this interview. You're able to speak before Judge Berman's court about the trauma that you experienced. And Judge Berman gave everybody, gave survivors an opportunity to speak there. I was in 2019. Then you fast forward to 2021, 2022, Gey Lane's trial. She's convicted of child sex trafficking. She's put in prison in Tallahassee, maximum security facility. You talk about her being found guilty, what that was for you having to go through all these court proceedings then and having to relive the trauma. And then you learn that Gey Lane now gets moved to a minimum security facility where she gets VIP treatment and lives better than lots of people do in a hotel because Trump has Todd Blanche, his former criminal defense attorney, speak with her, cut a deal with the Bureau of Prisons and put her in a VIP type setting in Texas. So, what's the question? It's a long wind up to say, can you just walk us through that kind of process of, I don't know if you experienced closure in court, but then what was it like to see what happened with the Trump administration making that decision to move her to the minimum security facility? So, firstly, absolute props to Judge Berman because he was phenomenal. He, to give us the opportunity to come and speak our truth without a conviction, that was an unprecedented legal moment and it was an unprecedented emotional moment for me and it was incredibly emotional. We stood shoulder to shoulder. I sat with Virginia, I met many of the survivors for the first time, but of course we'd all, because there was a specific MO to the abuse, we knew each other and we loved each other in a very special way and what I said that day became the New York Times quote of the day. And bear in mind that, I was given, when he died and he would never kill himself, that's just a complete impossibility for somebody with the kind of pathology that Jeffrey Epstein had. I was given a day and a half notice and they were like, do you want to speak? And I'm like, well, what is it? What does it mean? And then on the day, it's like, well, do you want to use your own name? Well, I don't know. What is that? What are the implications of that? And we didn't have time for that. So, I made the decision to speak in my own name and it was brutal and it was amazing and it was also one of the biggest emotional rollercoasters I've been on. Of course, there was more to come. So, the FBI interviewed me after speaking alongside, you know, about 23 of us survivors and the FBI said, oh, can we speak to you? And I was like, okay. And I was so overwhelmed. And so, I went to speak with the FBI. They took lots of notes, they asked lots of questions and they said, listen, you know, if it ever came to it, if there were any co-conspirators that you could be helpful with, would you be willing to testify? And I was like, well, I'd have to understand the details and the implications of that. But in principle, yes. The next thing I heard was when I was texted about six o'clock in the morning, very early in the morning, by my attorney, Brad Edwards, and he said, get up, you are in the Gelen Maxwell indictment. She's just been arrested. And I was like, what? What does that mean? You know? And then, and bear in mind, I'd already moved house once because after I went to the dismissal hearing, when I got back to Los Angeles, to my home, there were people outside my house. There were journalists, there were just people, people there. I don't know what they wanted. People would follow me, they'd follow me in the car, they'd chase me in the car. Some were journalists, some didn't get out of the car. So it seemed like an intimidation thing. And then when I was in the indictment, I then moved, I moved again. And the harassment and the sort of tactics that are used to discredit, to discredit me, but also to discourage me. And I use that term lightly, because it was, it was really intense. Contacting everybody I'd ever met, everyone I dated, my family, tracking down family members I hadn't seen for a long time. It was, it was very frightening. And I had a young daughter at the time. And so I was moving, I used to get very paranoid. And, and then my, my attorney Brad says, well, it's not really paranoia though, is it? Because you were being threatened. So it's actually valid fear. So then, you know, fast forward to going through the trial. My whole life stopped for about a year, you know, from when, from really from when from the dismissal hearing, but then up to the trial. And, and I couldn't do anything properly, because I didn't know when I was next going to be attacked. So she gets finally, after lots of bumps in the road of having, you know, is she going to get convicted? And then when we get the verdicts, then it's like, are they going to overturn it because of this juror thing? And then skip to where she gets moved. I mean, first of all, people said, you know, oh, you must be so pleased that she's been convicted. Well, there's relief that she can't hurt anyone else. And she can't place any more children and women in positions to be hurt. But it's tragic when there is a woman who has to be incarcerated. So she doesn't hurt children. That's that's a tragic moment. And that doesn't make me happy. And when she got moved to Tallahassee, of course, there's also been all the, all the talk of is she going to be pardoned? I had asked Brad, my attorney, many times before it came out in the press, I said, Trump is going to pardon her. I think he's going to pardon her. I'm really scared that he's going to pardon her. And at the beginning, when she was convicted, I was saying that. And he said, no, no, no, that will never happen. And, you know, it's still might, I think there's less chance now. But when she got moved, I wasn't surprised. But it is upsetting, disappointing, shocking. Leaves me with a feeling of hopelessness. And now with the way that these, these files have been handled, it's hard, it's hard to get through. Sometimes I could, I feel like I have to get through hours at a time. Because it's just too much. This is years, every week, there's some big thing that interrupts the flow of my life in a way where I feel completely paralyzed. You know, the fact that you thought that Trump would pardon her and even, you know, you're a lawyer who's a top lawyer for survivors out there, you know, and he said, I don't think that that's ever going to happen. And, you know, the fact that you thought that even back then, and, you know, I'm interested to know, do you think that now the only reason that it's less of a possibility is because the cover up is kind of backfiring on them with the release of the files, which complicates his ability because he's mentioned there's 38,000 references to him. And so it becomes more, if he was able to cover it up, then he would be more likely to pardon her. Is that your thinking or what's your thoughts there? So what I think is it's important to try to fathom what would be the reason for him pardoning her. And I think many people have had the theory that he wants to pardon her so that she won't say things she knows about him. And although that's a possibility, I think the stronger reason, which is also the reason that he was fighting the release of the files, and the reason that the files have been released in the way that they have, is because there are more powerful people who may be people that he knows that he that he really can't let down, who who cannot be exposed. And I think it's those people that may be driving this situation. And I think Maxwell has a lot of information and therefore a lot of power in this situation. And that's why she's sitting where she's sitting and not where Epstein's sitting. You think that there's a lot more being covered up right now that's not out there that's still being hidden in those other files that are out there. And that you think that exists? I do. I mean, obviously, as one of the survivors who was around Gilen and Jeffrey for over 10 years, I myself have some information. But so I know that there are things that are not out there. I also think that the way that they've sort of, it was quite strategic, I think, the way that this Epstein file dump took place before the weekend, before last weekend, because to flood the world with information, information comes in different categories. And to have disinformation, misinformation, and real facts, all mixed in together, really just creates chaos. It creates anarchy and it creates a situation where you can't separate which one is which. And therefore, for the people who seek to discredit the real survivor stories, that's what they're going to use. They're going to say, oh, well, this one thing is just a piece of paper with some writing on that was just a joke. And so it all must be a joke, all of it. It all must be just a silly big joke. But obviously, the truth is, you couldn't possibly have this many women who were children coming out with the same story if there wasn't something to it. And of course, there's more there. And we may never know. But from my side, now that I've been exposed, and now that I've come out and spoken publicly, I'm not even close to being done. And I'm going to keep the pressure on. And Anushka, we'd love to have you back on as well. And as this develops, I think it's important that we center our reporting in the voice of the survivors and what you and the other community of survivors who you've been standing shoulder to shoulder with have experienced and to always remember. And that's why I don't want this is not a political issue to me. I show the photo of you when you're a young girl. And I wanted people to hear what happened, how the grooming occurred, what took place, how you got so that we understand that behind this are people like you who suffered and who have been living with that trauma and who take it day by day sometimes about getting through. And then to have this happen on top of it, it is every day, this is your life now. And so before we go to our six million subscribers out there, anything else you want to say for purposes of this interview? And then of course, we're going to have you back. But I just want to give you the kind of final word that you want to tell our audience and anybody watching out there. Thank you. Well, what I want to say is from, at the trial, Annie Farmer and myself testified, Annie's been an incredible advocate and an incredible truth seeker and truth teller. Of course, Caroline Andriano spoke at the trial and she is no longer with us. And although Virginia didn't speak at the trial, she is also no longer with us. And before the trial, I was struggling a great deal. And at some point, I said, Brad, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can do it. And I had been sent a document in error by somebody. And it was the story of somebody who had a child the same age as mine. And it was a story of another survivor who'd been a victim of Jeffrey Epstein. And I realized towards reading the end of the story that this woman had died, I think by a drug overdose or something. And when I read it, I realized that I had to do it. I had to do it. And even though things are not changing in the world or in this country or in this area at the pace or that I'd like them to, things are changing and we are making a difference. And I will continue to fight. And I'm very grateful that you provide a platform for survivors to speak. And I will continue to speak until I get what we came for. Anushka DeGiorgia, thank you for your time. Thank you. Everybody, thank you for watching.