Islamabad prepares to host Iran-US ceasefire talks

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts. Hello and welcome to News Out for the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London. I'm James Menendez. It's hard to imagine a situation less conducive to substantive peace talks between the United States and Iran due to get underway tomorrow in Islamabad. For a start, the Pakistani hosts don't sound absolutely certain that they'll go ahead as planned. And the ceasefire that was announced earlier in the week to allow the negotiations to take place is a sketchy one to say the least. One of America's main conditions for the truce that Iran reopened the Strait of Hormuz to shipping hasn't happened. And then there's Israel's ongoing assault on Hezbollah in Lebanon. That was thought to be covered under the ceasefire. Well, in the past few minutes, the US Vice President JD Vance, who's leading America's negotiations team, spoke to reporters before boarding his flight to Pakistan. Look, we're looking forward to the negotiation. I think it's going to be positive. We'll of course see. As the President of the United States said, if the Iranians are willing to negotiate in good faith, we're certainly willing to extend the open hand. If they're going to try to play us, then they're going to find that the negotiating team is not that receptive. So we're going to try to have a positive negotiation. The President has gave us some pretty clear guidelines and we're going to see. Well, with me in the studio, our diplomatic correspondent, Paul Adams. Paul, JD Vance, sounding positive there, but is it fair to say that expectations for these talks are pretty low? I think rock bottom, to be honest. I mean, I think everyone will be mightily relieved if they actually meet in the same room tomorrow. You know, there are so many reasons why they may not get there. You know, the dispute over what's going on in Lebanon, something that the Iranians have said could make the whole process pointless. The ongoing row over the Strait of Hormuz, Donald Trump, clearly very unhappy with the state of affairs there, judging by his latest posts on social media. So, you know, just getting there, I think will be an achievement. And if they come away after who knows how many days or hours of negotiating with the ceasefire still in place, I think everyone will be mightily relieved. As for the vast, vast agenda of issues that need to be addressed, ultimately, you know, Iran's nuclear program, the future of the Strait of Hormuz, where Iran seems to want to now formalize its control, the lifting of sanctions. These are all big, big issues, which would require an awful lot of diplomatic heavy lifting. And it's not at all clear that any of that is going to be addressed in any significant way in the next few days. And there is past precedent because previous negotiations between the US and Iran and indeed others. I mean, they've taken years rather than a couple of weeks. Yeah, it's been what? 11 years since the the JCPOA, the Iran nuclear deal, was reached after, as you say, really intense, long, long arduous negotiations involving teams of real experts on both sides. And this is one of the problems because the Iranians, the last time they dealt with the Americans was literally within a couple of days before the war began when they sat down in Geneva and were discussing a possible nuclear deal. And their American interlocutors were Steve Wittkopf and Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's two kind of all purpose negotiators. Neither of them remotely steeped in the the technicalities of these issues. And they felt that either the Americans didn't understand what they were talking about or deliberately misrepresented the outcome. So that may go some way to explaining why JD Vance is going. He's known to be among the administration, US administration officials, somewhat skeptical, reporting recently in the New York Times about the run up to the war, suggested that he was pretty keen that it shouldn't take place, but eventually fell into line. But I think they were the Iranians would regard him at least as carrying some serious weight rather than the two men they regard, frankly, as lightweights. Despite all those caveats, is it fair to say that both sides have good reason to try to make the truce stick? Yes, I think, look, Iran has been just clobbered by the war. You know, when there was a briefing at the Pentagon a couple of days ago at which Pete Hagueseff sort of declared capital V for victory, the list of things that have been destroyed, whether it's weapons factories, missile launchers, air defense systems, the Navy, the Air Force, all of these things. This has been a colossal blow and it doesn't matter how brave a face the Iranians put on that, that would have set back their military ambitions and their military capability by years. So in that sense, they need that to stop. The Americans have struggled to achieve their war aims. They claim they have achieved them, but I think most people agree that it's a partial achievement at best. And it is also, of course, very unpopular at home in America. So the Americans, I think, also need this to stop. So neither side wants to be seen as weak. The Iranians, I think, feel that because the regime has survived, albeit with different personnel, and because they have now achieved something they did not have or even perhaps even have thought about before, which is a kind of formal control over the strait of Hormuz, something they now want the international community to recognize, which the international community is not going to do, that means I think they feel that they are entering these negotiations in a relatively, despite the enormous damage, in a relatively strong position. Paul, as ever, thank you very much indeed. That was our diplomatic correspondent, Paul Adams. So where does all this leave Israel? And it's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who's insisted the military campaign isn't yet over. We still have goals to complete, he said. Well, let's speak to a former Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olma, who joins me on the line. And welcome to News Hour. I think it's fair to say that you're not a fan of Mr. Netanyahu. Do you think his Israeli government wants these talks to fail? Well, I don't know whether they want a peace talks to fail. I think that presently there is a growing unrest in our country with the continued military ground operation in Lebanon, which is not going any place. The Hezbollah needs to be disarmed, that's for sure. But they are shooting now from a distance of more than 50 kilometers from the borders of Israel. And therefore, there is not a good reason for us to wage a ground operation in the south of Lebanon, instead of trying to come to terms with the Lebanese government, which has offered peace talks with Israel. Well, I suppose the Israeli government would say that it doesn't trust the Lebanese government's ability to disarm Hezbollah. Well, it's true that there might be some suspicions about the ability of the government to do it. But the Lebanese government never before offered peace talks with Israel, which it does now. And there is an international community, which is very interested, particularly the French government, President Macron, which are there to try and assist the sites to come to terms. And I think that this is something that can be useful. I don't believe that we can disarm the Hezbollah unless Israel decides to invade Lebanon altogether, from across the Litany River, deep into Lebanon. And this is a whole complex and uncertain move, which can cost the lives of many soldiers and many Lebanese, and will not disarm the Hezbollah as we want. So there should be negotiations. And hopefully the Lebanese government together with the international community will be more effective. Yeah. If the United States says to Israel, stop what you're doing in Lebanon, stop the bombardment, which has been continuing again today. Do you think Benjamin Netanyahu will toe the line? Yes. There's no question about it. Netanyahu is not a free agent here. He's hold your respect. He completely depends on the goodwill and the cooperation in the support of President Trump. And I know that President Trump states sometimes, maybe in private circumstances, that if I was saying Netanyahu something, he will have to do it. And I think that I hope that Netanyahu will have the guts and the wisdom to do it without unnecessary pressure coming from America. But if necessary, I think Trump can do it. But will he be happy about doing that? I mean, I'm just wondering what the wider war, including Israel's participation in the attacks on Iran, what that's achieved for Israel? I mean, is it safer than it was six weeks ago? The general mood in Israel is not. We were running to the safe rooms and to the shelters until the very last minute before the ceasefire. So when Prime Minister Netanyahu said in June after the then confrontation with Iran, that all the missiles, 20,000 missiles were destroyed and that the nuclear program of Iran was destroyed, it was grossly exaggerated. The fact is that the nuclear enriched uranium is still in the hands of Iran and they still have enough missiles to shoot on a daily basis as they did until the very last minute. So the two most significant objectives that were set forth for this part of the military confrontation, the nuclear and the missiles, they are still there and Iran still can incapable of using it. So it's been a failure then the campaign? It definitely was not a success. There were military achievements which can't be ignored. The fact that the Israeli Air Force controls completely the air of Iran and the air of Tehran is not insignificant. And there was considerable damage caused to Iran, the military installations and the infrastructure, civilians and military infrastructure. That's for sure. But we also suffered a certain degree of damage in a continuous shooting of missiles into the state of Israel. And the life of Israel for more than a month was completely shattered and was grossly influenced. And perhaps a Middle East that is now more unstable than it was? It definitely is not more stable. Is it possible at all just briefly? Is it possible that the talks might yield some results, particularly on that issue of Iranian enrichment? Do you have any optimism that that might happen? I think that I hope that the purpose of Trump is considering the complex situation as it appears to be now. That Trump will be smart enough to try and reach an agreement similar to the one that Obama did which he withdrew from in 2018. If there will be an agreement that will supervise the nuclear program of Iran and control the... In a similar way to the agreement that was done by Obama, I think that this will be a fair achievement. OK, OK, Mr. Omer, we'll have to leave it there. We're out of time. I'm afraid that was the former Israeli Prime Minister, Erhard Omer, joining us live. You're listening to News Out Live from the BBC coming up on the program. A voice from inside Iran, a young boy on how US and Israeli airstrikes have been affecting his life. Before the war, I had no stress at all. But now, even the smallest sound causes my brain to react very badly. The sound of explosions, the shock waves and the sound of fighter jets flying over the city can have a very serious effect on the mind. More on the impact of the war on children in Iran coming up in about 20 minutes. Let's just recap our main headline this hour. The US Vice President, J.D. Vance, is on his way to Pakistan for talks with Iran that are due to begin on Saturday. He said he expected a positive act. This is James Menendez. We're News Out Live from the BBC. Now, very few people were talking about possible links between Melania Trump and Jeffrey Epstein until the US First Lady surprised the world, and it seems many in the White House, by making a rare public statement in front of the presidential seal, declaring she wanted to clear her name. I have never had any knowledge of Epstein's abuse of his victims. I was never involved in any capacity. I was not a participant, was never on Epstein's plane and never visited his private island. I have never been legally accused or convinced of a crime in connection with Epstein's sex trafficking, abuse of minors and other repulsive behaviour. Mrs. Trump went on to call for congressional hearings for survivors of Epstein's sex trafficking, saying then and only then we will have the truth. Well, let's speak to Mary Jordan, Associate Editor of The Washington Post, and author of a book called The Art of Her Deal, The Untold Story of Melania Trump. Mary, very good to have you with us here on News Out. How much of a surprise was this statement? Stunning. I think even people who knew her were surprised. Finally, people, this Epstein nightmare for Donald Trump, it's really been terrible for him, was kind of in the shadows because of the economy and the war. Boy, she brought it back out. I mean, do you think she made it, I mean, presumably with some of her rays, do you think she made the statement without telling him and his team? When I was talking to people at the White House, many of them, most of them didn't know, but I really find it hard to believe that Donald Trump did not know, even though he told a reporter that. She announced that she was going to give a statement the day before. And it's my understanding that typically that at least Donald Trump or a few people knew what she was going to say. And why now? What might be her motivation? Is she trying to get ahead of something? You know, that's the big question. Does she know that more is coming out? I think more likely it has been boiling inside her for a very long time. Everything I know about her is that she spends a huge amount of time online looking at what people are saying about her. And there's some pretty nasty stuff. She's a former model. There's pictures of her real pictures of her posing naked as a young model. And with AI, you can do all kinds of things with that. And there's all kinds of rumors that she said are not true. I think if you're very isolated as she is, and you're on your computer and you're looking at what people are saying about you, it really, really upset her. You could feel it when she was talking. Now, why today she decided? Again, I was talking to people who know her and they just said it hit boiling point and she kind of came out. I don't think Donald Trump is too happy about it. Even if he did have a heads up the day before, he's not going to stop her. That's who she is. And you can feel that she's increasingly independent in that White House. And what about the call for survivors to give testimony to Congress? How's that going to go down? I mean, they said that it's shifting the burden to them. I think she genuinely wants answers and help for the victims here. But just as you said, they're like too late. You went on TV yesterday and acted like you're the victim just because people are smearing you. What about us? I do think though, the Democrats are jumping up and down because now we have the First Lady asking for an investigation that her husband and his Republican Party did not want. So I would keep an eye on this congressional investigation because all of a sudden you can hear people saying, well, even the First Lady wants this. So far, he's just had a lot of redacted and slow walking documents out in the public. Yeah, Mary, thank you very much indeed for joining us. Mary Jordan there. One of the early pioneers of hip hop, Africa, Bambata, sometimes called its cod father, has died at the age of 68. He may not have become a household name like some of those who followed in his footsteps, but he's widely considered to have laid the foundations for rap music from his home in the Bronx in New York. But his reputation was tarnished in later years following allegations of child abuse and trafficking. I've been speaking to Thomas Hobbs, music and culture journalist specializing in rap culture. I asked him whether he could be considered the inventor of hip hop. I'm not so sure I'd go that far, but he was a real innovator when it came to cementing the concept of the breakbeat. So that would be maybe taking a 10 second loop off a James Brown song and turning it into a beat that MCs could freestyle over the song you played before Planet Rock. There wasn't other rap producers of the 70s and 80s really sampling Kraftwerks, Trans Europe Express. So sort of by doing that, he not only kind of created this electro funk sort of sound, but he also kind of really normalized the links between hip hop and techno and electronic music. And you know, you could look at something like grime music in the UK, where it was an extension of garage and house music beat breaks. And you could say that the genealogy goes all the way back to Africa Bombard. And he was doing this in Brooklyn at what block parties? I mean, this was this was the very start of this music being created, though, wasn't it? Yeah, one of the first pioneers alongside the likes of DJ Kool-Herk, Grand Wizard Theodore, yeah, Africa Bombard was doing these kind of house parties around the Bronx, bringing, you know, this type of music to the community. But I guess with him, he also kind of really made hip hop global. He's one of the first people, for example, to work with punk and rock stars. He worked with John Leiden and the Sex Pistols on world destruction in the 80s. So I guess you could say his musical legacy has very much been about aligning hip hop with other genres and showing how everything is connected. Yeah. And what about those abuse allegations? I mean, to what extent did they tarnish his reputation? I mean, in music more widely, but also particularly within the hip hop community? For sure. I mean, it's a real sore spot in hip hop culture. Because you've got influential artists like KRS One and Chuck D, who are almost kind of able to have this cognitive dissonance in acknowledging he's a pioneer, but not also acknowledging that he's likely a predator. So I think it kind of just shines a light on this kind of double standard in the way, you know, hip hop culture was always was built off this idea of elevating the underdogs. Yet when we don't, you know, don't shine a light on the fact that someone like Africa Pumbata could have this horrible negative side, you know, we elevate problematic men, potentially, who, you know, keep the underdogs held back. So I guess it kind of, it really does sort of show those contradictions. And I think we just have to maybe get to a point collectively, where we can acknowledge somebody could be a pioneer, but they could also allegedly be a predator as well. I mean, I mean, just briefly, though, did it mean that the people who followed him didn't, you know, want to talk about him that much? Yeah, I mean, I guess, I mean, I wouldn't say Africa Pumbata was the kind of artist that continued to like, have the same relevancy in the 21st century musically as he did in the 20th century. So that might be a sign that less people wanted to kind of work with him. But as I said, there's so many core people in hip hop culture that have continued to defend him. And I think, you know, to Africa Pumbata's victims, that can leave a really nasty taste. Thomas, thank you very much indeed for joining us today. Appreciate your time. That was Thomas Hobbes, music and culture journalist specializing in rap culture. You're listening to News Air from the BBC World Service. Do stay with us. Lots more coming up in the second half of the program. Welcome back to News Air. Conservationists are warning that climate change is pushing emperor penguins as well as Antarctic fur seals towards extinction. The International Union for Conservation of Nature now says the loss of sea ice and shrinking food availability have caused both populations to plummet. The emperor penguins live in colonies along the coast of the Antarctic and rely on what's known as fast ice. That's not fast speedy, but fast as in stable ice that's stuck fast to the land to raise their chicks until they grow their waterproof feathers. Well, Martin Harper's Chief Executive of Birdlife International, an umbrella group which represents conservation organisations around the world that coordinate the new assessment. He's been speaking to my colleague Tim Franks. Very few of us have a chance to see them in the wild, but most of us have seen them on television. Of course, they are iconic species. They're actually the largest of the 18 species of penguin. They reach up to about 1.2 metres, about four feet. They're the heaviest and, of course, you recognise them through the black and white feathers they have and, of course, the golden yellow areas around their ears. But sadly, yesterday, we've released an assessment to say that we've upgraded their extinction risk to endangered for the reasons that you've outlined. It's a really big moment for us to say, it's a wake-up call for everyone to say, unless we change course now and tackle climate change, then we are going to be losing species like the emperor penguin. Do you have an assessment for what the population is now and how fast it's falling? Yes, so the best estimates we have, and this is based on loads of scientists from the IECN, penguin specialist groups who do the monitoring, both in the field at the colonies, but also through remote sensing. And we reckon there's about 256,000 breeding pairs. So, there's still a decent number. But our estimate is over a 10-year period that we lost about 10% of the population. And our projection is based on reduction in available habitat. And essentially, we're talking about intact coastal sea ice around Antarctica that we could lose up to 50% of the population by the 2080s. Right. I mean, clearly, one thing that we need to do is to tackle man-made climate change. In the shorter, more immediate term, is there anything, do you think that can be done to try and help protect emperor penguins? Well, we obviously need to double down on efforts to try and stabilize global terror rises. And that means countries around the world committing to their greenhouse gas emission reduction targets. But actually, there is an opportunity next month. So, there is a treaty which governs the environmental protection around the Antarctic, the Antarctic Treaty. And they will be meeting in Hiroshima in next month in May. And we are calling for the parties to that treaty to recognise emperor penguin as a specially protected species. And that will provide greater obligations on governments to protect emperor penguin and indeed prevent their disturbance. And in the end, that hopefully will put a spotlight on the real challenges that wildlife on the Antarctic circle is facing. Martin Harper, chief executive of Birdlife International, talking there to my colleague Tim Tracks. This is the BBC in London. You're listening to NewsHour and I'm James Menendez. As we've been hearing, Pakistan is saying it's confident that talks between the US and Iran will go ahead as planned in the Pakistani capital Islamabad on Saturday. Confident, they're saying, but not certain. And even before they've begun, both sides have been accusing the other of breaking the terms of the ceasefire. The Pakistani government's also warning that the two countries positions going into the negotiations are very far apart. We can talk now to Chas Freeman, former senior US diplomat. He was ambassador to Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War. Also a former assistant secretary of defence. Ambassador, very good to have you with us here on NewsHour. What are your expectations of these talks? Well, it's very unclear whether they will actually take place. If they do, they will try to turn what is basically a make believe ceasefire into something real. To moment, what we have is a lull in the fighting. The two sides absolutely cannot agree about what they agreed about. So this is very confusing indeed. And we have to see whether there is in fact a meeting tomorrow morning in Islamabad as the Pakistanis are hoping there will be. In particular, confusion over Lebanon's inclusion in the terms of the ceasefire. I mean, that's a pretty big omission, isn't it? It's very clear from the record that Pakistan as the mediator put Lebanon on the agenda. It was included in the announcement of the so-called ceasefire by the Pakistani Prime Minister. And I think what's happened is that Israel has persuaded the United States to walk that back. From the point of view of the Iranians, however, this is an essential matter. Not just because they have been the historic backers of Hezbollah and protectors of Lebanon against Israeli aggression, but also because this is a test of whether the United States as the will and the means to rein in Israeli aggression. We are now seeing an Israeli offer to negotiate with the Lebanese government, which is powerless to control Hezbollah. And it's a bit ironic that Israel would propose such talks to disarm Hezbollah at the very moment when it's attempting to annex southern Lebanon. So this is all very difficult indeed. Yeah. Do you think, though, that President Trump wants a way out of this war, he wants it to end, and if so, he will essentially turn around to Israel and say, look, you've got a follow suit? Well, it's very clear that no one has won this war. But it's also very clear that Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu have lost it, both for their countries, the United States and Israel, and for themselves. So yes, he very much wants to call it quits. But it's far easier to start a war than to end a war. You don't end a war until the defeated admit defeat, and no one is prepared to do that at present. Just one final question. I mean, to what extent do you think that American expertise on Iran has been sidelined throughout these early stages of the negotiations and indeed, in the last few weeks of the conflict? Well, the Trump administration has become known for entirely amateur, incompetent and inconsequential envoys of one sort or another. Stephen Wittkopf and Jared Kushner have no credibility at all except with Donald Trump that counts for something. But in Ukraine, in Gaza, and now in Iran, they have a batting average of zero. Thank you very much indeed for your analysis today. That was former US Ambassador Chas Freeman. Well, let's hear from inside Iran now. And in particular, the impact of the bombing campaign on children. Human rights groups estimate that about 250 Iranian children have been killed since the war began. More than a fifth of the population is under the age of 14. That's 20 million children in all. As ever, the BBC's access to the country is limited as are communications. But we do get many messages. Our correspondent Fergal Keane has been listening to them. The chance of indoctrination, the impact of high explosives, this montage of war's noise to which children's minds are being exposed. In the cities of Iran, they're learning to fear the world that grown-ups have made. Before the war, I had no stress at all. But now, even the smallest sound causes my brain to react very badly. The sound of explosions, the shockwaves, and the sound of fighter jets flying over the city can have a very serious effect on the mind. Ali is in his early teens. He's at home because the war has meant the closure of all schools. I should be able to study, to work, and become an independent person in the future, not to be constantly worrying about politics, living in stress, thinking about bombs falling, and endless fears. Although the regime has imposed an internet blackout, we've been able to obtain testimony of the war's child victims and of those trying to help them. Asia, not a real name, is a children's rights activist. We're seeing a lot of sleep disturbances, nightmares, reduced concentration, and even aggressive behavior. When you struggle so much to raise a child, only for that child to then be killed, whether in protests or in war like this, I believe no parent would be willing to bring a child into the world. Not only were children at risk from U.S. and Israeli airstrikes, the government recently called on every child over 12 to join the regime's militia and stand guard at checkpoints. Do you want your son to become a man, asks the official on television, send your children at night to the roadblocks? These children will turn into men. One of those children was 11-year-old Ali Reza Jaffari, killed by a drone strike while guarding a checkpoint. Other children have been killed by airstrikes in their homes or lost parents to the guns of the regime. Tehran resident Nur has a young son and fears for his safety. A 12-year-old child never has the ability to make proper decisions. They do not truly understand what is happening. For example, they may think it is some kind of game. When they are given weapons and told to go to war, they imagine they are playing a video game. When a child goes down that road, there is no way back. The war may end with this ceasefire, it may not, but there is no end to the damage it has already caused to young bodies and minds. Fergal Keane reporting there. While all eyes are on the Middle East, a rare encounter took place today in Beijing. It was between the Chinese President Xi Jinping and the Taiwanese opposition leader, Cheng Li-wen, of the Kuomintang, or KMT. It is the first time the head of the parties travelled to the Chinese capital in a decade, and the Taiwanese government isn't happy. It is accused Ms Cheng of being subservient to Beijing, which insists that the island is part of China and will one day return to the fold by force if necessary. President Xi said today that was inevitable. The current century-long changes in the world are accelerating, but no matter how the international situation and the situation in the Taiwan straight change, the general direction of human development and progress will not change. The larger trend of compatriots on both sides of the straight, walking nearer, closer and together will not change. This is a historical necessity. We have full confidence in this. Let's talk to Professor Kerry Brown, Director of the Lao China Institute at Kings College at London. Kerry, very good to have you with us here on NewsHour, as ever. How significant is this trip in your view? It's obviously very important. I mean, Zheng, the chairman of the KMT, was appointed last year, so she's relatively new. Her background actually is that she was once a big supporter of independence, so this is quite a journey that she's been on over the last few years. But I suppose it is an acknowledgement that there needs to be some kind of dialogue between Taiwan and China, and also that the current geopolitical context is extremely precarious. No one really knows what Washington would do if China was to make a move on Taiwan. It is likely that it will probably still do something, but as the years go on, that probability gets more and more difficult to judge. In many ways, I suppose what the KMT is doing is saying we definitely need a dialogue with China, even though it is inevitable that China will leverage this and say, you know, there needs to be unification. We have to remember, though, that for the 23 million Taiwanese people, the vast majority support the status quo. They don't want unification. They don't want any kind of big moves towards, you know, sort of closer, you know, kind of new unity. But they're aware that China is a huge player, and they cannot antagonize it and, you know, risk going to a full conflict. Yeah. And do you think the calculus is then changing, given, I mean, the sort of often erratic behavior of the Trump administration? I mean, are people starting to think, look, the US might not come to our aid, and therefore we might need to change tack from the positions we've held in previous years? It is certainly something that's got more difficult to judge. I mean, the Taiwan Relations Act that America has from 1979, when they shifted recognition from Taiwan to China, you know, doesn't really, it's not a treaty. It can't be because it's not, you know, recognition of Taiwanese statehood. But it says that on the whole, China will, America will seek to look after Taiwan's security. But we're dealing with an incredibly unpredictable American administration at the moment. We also have to recognize on Taiwan politics is also very complicated. The current president there of the Democratic Progressive Party, Leichender, got 40% of the vote, you know, the KMT and another party got the rest. And so, you know, a majority of people don't support the current government. And the current government isn't, you know, hugely popular. So there's complexity in Taiwan too, on its own attitudes, with some saying, we need to be pragmatic and some arguing passionately that there should be no contact with China at all. So is there a good chance that the KMT in some form could become the government? There's a possibility. I don't think this would be a popular move on Taiwan, to be honest with you. I think Zheng has taken a big, big risk in going to China. It might be that geopolitics get so turbulent in the next sort of, you know, a couple of years before the next election is due in the beginning of 2028, that it might bring, you know, some returns. The principle though, that there should be dialogue with China, I think people accept, but having a lead of her sort of seniority go across, I don't think that that would be very popular at the moment. But who knows in the next 12 months what might happen and whether this will then prove a wise move. We just don't know at the moment. Yeah. Thank you very much indeed. Professor Kerry Brown there of the Laotianna Institute, part of King's College here in London. You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC, World Service. This is James Menendez with NewsHour live from the BBC. Now, despite a fragile ceasefire between the US and Iran, Israel has been continuing to strike Lebanon, including strikes today. This week has been one of the deadliest periods of conflict between the two countries. On Wednesday alone, the Israeli military carried out more than 100 air strikes across Lebanon, including the capital Beirut. Israel maintains their focus on targets of Hezbollah, the Iranian proxy militia. But the civilian fallout has also been significant. Over a million people have been displaced from their home since the beginning of March. Nearly 1,500 people have been killed. And for many of those who've survived, life has been turned completely on its head. Well, let's speak to Mahmoud Bawari, who's a resident of Beirut. His life was changed on March the 17th when an Israeli strike hit Baalbek, where his sister's family were breaking their fast for Ramadan. Mahmoud joins me live on the line. A warm welcome to NewsHour in tragic circumstances, Mahmoud, and our condolences. Can you just take us through what happened back in March? Good evening. Thank you so much for this opportunity to tell the word about our tragic story. Thanks for the introduction. On 17th of March, you know, it was a holy month that most of the families in Lebanon, they gather on the dinner, during the dinner just to have their dinner, breaking fast. And all the families should gather together with their kids in order to stay as one family. However, my sisters, my only sister, my only little sister was in Baalbek with her family. Having their dinner teaching has her nine years old son because we're having online education because of the war, no more schools. At 909, there is a strike on the building that made the building into ashes, disappeared from the map. I received a call from my father because I live in Beirut, like it's like 80 kilometers from Baalbek, around one hour and a half driving. I heard a voice from my father. Same first time I hear such a voice with a deep voice shouting like, we lost your sister, we lost her son, we lost Mahdi, her brother, and we lost Karim, her nine years old boy. So would it you, I mean, this obviously must have just been still panic in you? Of course, of course. So I don't know how I get from the house, left my family, my two kids and drove to Baalbek. I think it took me like less than an hour driving to reach and start searching between hospitals to see which hospital hosted her body to see because we had hope that all of them, they are still alive because start the rumors like we wish they are alive and we start searching between hospitals until someone called me to come to the government hospital in Baalbek to see my brothers, my father, my mother and Karim in the hospital. So once I reached there, I saw Karim in his in a bed in the full of dust with the minor scratches and he starts shouting, uncle, what happened to mama, what happened to baba, what happened to Ghadi, my brother? I told him, relax, they might doing some surgeries and they will be with you soon. And he started crying because he said, my little brother is afraid from needles, but he didn't know back then that his brother, mother, father are went into pieces. No more bodies, no more full bodies. They disappeared out of three dead bodies. We found only five kilograms of pieces for two days. We searched for their bodies until they can bury them. Goodness, that's terrible. And Karim, as I said, is nine years old, but he escaped with scratches miraculously. So what are you looking after him now? Of course, Karim is residing with me in Beirut, between Beirut and his grandmother, the sad grandmother, the sad grandfather. But right now, he's in Beirut because he had a beautiful memories coming to Beirut, to his uncle's apartment. It's fun activities with his nephews, with his family here in Beirut, that is a kind of trip for him. However, the panic's coming between between day and another day, start crying, remembering her mother, brother and father, the civilians, the teacher, the early childhood education teacher just disappeared for no reason. Mahmood, can I just ask you this? Why was their building in in Baalbek targeted? No one knows. No one knows because my family, I know my family, I know their neighbors, these are civilians residing in an apartment. The father, Mahdi, Lula's husband, is a cafe owner, like from morning till midnight, he's in this cafe. My sister is a early childhood education teacher and took it in school. So there was no trace of Hezbollah there, they weren't using one of the basements, they weren't using one of the apartments as a command center or something. My dear, if there is anyone else in the building, we could see a dead bodies, the only dead bodies were my sister, her husband and two kids and there the another neighbor, her kid passed away because they were visiting them. This is the only dead bodies and alive, still alive, only one, only two, sorry, the neighbor and the female neighbor, the mother, and Karim, they were alive from the whole building. If there were any activities we could have seen, all the media went, the only footage they took, the books and the games that they were playing in it. This is the only thing that they found in the building and this is what we saw. Yeah, and now, and we've only got about a minute left, but I mean, you know, you're back in Beirut, but Beirut is still a very dangerous place for you and for Karim and the rest of your family. Yes, it's horrible. There is no safe place in Lebanon because people in Beirut, yes, two days ago, more than 250 dead bodies, around 30% of them are children. They thought they were in safe spaces and safe places without any notice. They just burnt, they just disappeared. Full families are still under the rubble right now because there is no enough machineries. All the machineries were concerned to go and dig in these places because they were threatened. So the situation is now just while we're talking in the south and Nabati, there is another disaster happening. Yeah, Mamoud, we'll have to leave it there. We're coming to the end of the program, but we really appreciate you sharing our story with us, with our listeners. Mamoud, Bwari there, and that is it for this edition of News. I thank so much for listening. Until the next time, bye-bye.