AT&T’s Culture Challenge: Profits vs People

Hey, I'm Elizabeth Reese. And I'm Marjorie Punnett. We host a podcast. It's called Best to the Nest. If you want to bring love, balance, and joy to your home, relationships, or parenting, listen, we do too. We want your home to be your favorite place to be. We bring in experts to guide us along the way. We also chat about pop culture and how it plays in our lives. So learn and laugh along with us as you bring your best to your nest. Best to the Nest, the podcast that brings you home. Get it wherever you get your podcasts. If I was an AT&T employee right now, I would be looking around because it just feels raw. It feels like I don't matter. I'm a number. Yeah. Well, I'm coming from a CEO that pulls down 26 million a year and then say, here's the changes I'm making for myself. And here's how I'm self-improving and here's the sacrifices I'm making. This is just handed top down from above. One of the things that I, if I were an employee, that I would be paying attention to around this whole market-based culture approach and, you know, you reward it for your performance. If you're a high performer, you'll succeed. That wants to come into the office, you'll succeed here. Is then what measures are truly being put into place, what systems are being put into place to really ensure that there is equity and how performance is measured and supported. Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride. We try to put them back better than we found them. AT&T, you're a communications company. So it's kind of funny that an internal communication intended for your employees made it out to all of us. It was the memo heard around the world. The sentiment was this, shape up or ship out. My way or the highway. No more, Mr. Nice Guy. Your family's at home, not in the workplace. Oh, and by the way, tell your family, see you later, because you're coming back to the office. No more working from home. Capiche, Capiche, mic drop. Well, Wall Street loved it. Online it triggered a wave of criticism and employees. How are they feeling about all this? Well, we're going to get to that. And we're going to decide whether a profit driven company should remove employee loyalty from the equation. Is the move cold and calculating or just smart business? AT&T, we're here to strike the right balance. We can fix this. Kadira, tell us more about what we're here to talk about. Yeah, so let's start here, right? I mean, AT&T is making some big, bold bets. And the company has been on a mission really for the last few years to reinvent itself. So it's been things around the infrastructure, around culture, around leadership clarity, under the current CEO's leadership. You know, they've doubled down on fiber and wireless. They're aiming to serve over 30 million locations with high speed fiber by the end of 2025. Thumbs up, right? You got to grow. You got to change. They're streamlining its operations. And as you said, investors are loving it. Their stock is up, up, up. I'm enjoying watching my stock in AT&T go up. It's up around 22 percent just this year, and they've outpaced Verizon and T-Mobile. And analysts are pointing to three key reasons. It's simplification of the business. It's aggressive infrastructure investment and its workforce efficiency. So there should be a textbook turnaround, right? Again, under the CEO's leadership. But this is also a story about culture. And so in that memo, the CEO is really steering the company from this legacy of loyalty and tenure to what he's calling market based culture. So what is that? He talks about rewarding capability and contribution and commitment. And out of the 99000 employees that took that employee engagement survey that the memo really was in response to, 79 percent responded feeling engaged and still positive. But the scores have definitely dropped. And employees are talking about career growth uncertainty, misalignment between expectations and support, poor communication from leadership. And you guessed it, as we're talking about here today, return to office frustrations. So other than, again, we talk about and we're going to get into this more later, this market based culture, which has folks talking a lot about what exactly does this mean for us as employees? And is it something that we can really carry out and live into? The other topic that's getting a lot of attention is the company's return to office approach. Right. Now, like many companies during the pandemic, AT&T went remote. And then in twenty twenty one, very early, actually earlier than a lot of other companies, they started having these hybrid conversations. And it was it was passive. But then they started talking about what they called a hub model, where they were consolidating offices, relocating teams. But again, it was still kind of this passive approach to returning to the office. Then in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four, returning to office became mandatory and they tied it to this conversation around, you know, office investment, culture goals. But this year with the CEO's memo, that enforcement around the return to office, it's no longer an option. It's no longer passive. It is very clear that this is not an option and it needs to happen like yesterday. So, you know, as you said, Erin, it's been mixed reviews around the memo. Critics have been loud, right? So we've got employees who are skeptical. Some are very vocal about the tone of the memo. Some analysts are even warning that the messaging could backfire. You know, definitely those high performing employees who might not like the memo's tone and what's included could go elsewhere. And we definitely as companies, we hate to see our high performers leave. But the memo also has supporters, right? So some supporters are talking about, hey, we appreciate the clarity. We appreciate the directness. Folks, you know, are praising the article for not sugarcoating expectations. If you're demanding we get back in the office, the line has been drawn in the sand. Fine, we'll do what needs to be done. So here we are. We're all watching this, right? Wall Street is watching. Employees are watching. But so is the rest of corporate America. This is not just a TNT story. Now, they are going to be one, you know, out front writing the playbook for sure. But this is a story of a broader shift in work, in leadership, and what it really means to perform in this quote, quote, post pandemic world. So the question really is, can AT&T pull it off and at what cost? All good questions. Yeah, how are we going to fix that? Now, I think you've bought up so many really great points and there's so many components to it. So, you know, is the return to office policy a symptom of really what they're trying to strike through market based culture changes and shifting? And what does that really mean? What is the intention behind that? Is that, you know, a turnover and retention strategy, right? Are they trying to separate from employees that they feel are under performers or driving out people that don't have the same types of values or energy to give to the job? You know, trying to get people to retire early, all of those kinds of things are sometimes amassed in these policies that are sent out. And, you know, that's what is reflected in those employee engagement scores, right? So I've been at companies where we've had a lackluster, non well received return to office. Of course, who wants to return to the office when you can work from your own home? And there's a lot of things to think about, you know, it was interesting because, you know, we forced people to work from home during COVID and then to force them back into the office when it's been two, three years. And they've made adjustments in their lives, right? Some have moved, so they're not in a hub, right? That was one of the things I found at one of my past companies is that, you know, when they were given the opportunity, they didn't want to live in these metropolitan areas that were expensive. So a lot of them moved out to other areas. And so to have to come back into the office, even if it's hybrid and it's two days a week, three days a week, you're talking about a true impact to the employee commute time, you know, part having to paper parking, potentially, you know, different types of daycare scheduling and things like that that you didn't have beforehand. It's just it's a lot. And I think that employees are kind of fighting back because they feel like they weren't part of the decision making process. So definitely there's issues with change management and communications. It's really what is behind what's the transparency and intention behind this culture shift. And what does it really mean when you're saying market based culture? Right, because it kind of feels like you're saying we're trying to get rid of maybe. Underperformers, we're trying to get rid of maybe more experienced people because we don't want to pay them as much because market based means what, you know? And so I think that there's a lot to unpack here. And I think that, you know, I love the conversation around return to office because I think we could spend a whole two hours talking about returning to the office and how that's benefited some and not benefit others. But I also think that what Kadeeri, you're bringing up and Erin is so leadership and continual issues that there is in communicating a strategy that is supposed to enhance the business, grow the business, make the business relevant, not that AT&T is going anywhere. But, you know, there there is a sense of like, what what are we doing to compete and how are we going to transform in the future and what does work look like? And instead, you know, sending out this memo that kind of feels like, yeah, join or jump, right? Well, it's really kind of a slap in the employees' faces. You know, when you see people with phones with crack screens and you think, whoops, they weren't careful. Well, that's something you can see on the outside. But what you can't see is how careful they're being with their online data. Because whenever someone goes online without ExpressVPN, it could mean trouble like passwords and logins all out in the open. If a screen cracks, you can fix it. 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No, I think that is definitely something that's truly, I think from the employee's perspective and even from leaders like middle managers' perspectives who aren't at the table when those decisions are made. I think it's truly felt to be something like that or that there's an expectation that we are going to lose five to 10% of the workforce because they're not going to come back and we'll be OK with that until you lose all your top performers. Right. Right. Then and the people coming back to the office are not the top performers. Then what are you going to say? And so again, that to me, I do think that some people use it as a strategy and it's masked in this policy. And again, employees are smart. We're savvy. We're not going to like just, you know, I don't have that relationship that the CEO, I don't think has that relationship with the entire organization. They're not going to trust. You know, I did say this at an executive meeting where I had team members who were our were hourly, right? CSRs, those kinds of things. And parking being twenty five dollars a day, not to mention gas, not to mention, it takes forty five to an hour from wherever they live. Right. It just doesn't feel like we're we're thinking about that. And to snap at an employee during a town hall who asks, are you going to play, pay for our parking and them saying, no, we're not going to pay for your parking because you have a parking account or something like that, which is not true. You have to put your own money in it. I was like, that's not the same thing. To the CEO who's driving a Tesla and has a parking space. Right. You know what I mean? That doesn't it doesn't feel like there's there's a connection there and that you're actually not hearing the feedback. It's it's not that they were even saying, I don't want to come in. They were saying, I do want to come in, but I just want you to know that life has changed. And so from two years ago, three years ago, when I was coming in, you know, life has changed. And so I need to know are we going to change and accommodate those employees and their needs? Right. Right. Well, I'm sure there have been studies done about in person versus virtual and how what what performance is like. Kadeera, I'm sure you know more about this than me. But it's if it was proven, I mean, we were all pretty affected during the pandemic. We all kind of figured it out and we got a lot of work done. So if it was proven that in person is exponentially just higher marks across the board, then there's something to this. If it's just saying whoever is willing to come back in, you're you stay whoever isn't your cut. That's like saying, whoever's willing to wear a uniform, you can stay. You know, it's it's relatively arbitrary to say the one the people that are here in person are the ones that make this this next cut. But you're not safe yet. Right. That's still we're going to still hold you to untold performance markers that we haven't really laid out a plan for yet. Absolutely. I mean, you know, one of the things that I was thinking about, of course, the conversation now, but I was thinking about just from a from a DEI perspective and not just in terms of a black and white, right? But I'm thinking about people that are, you know, differently abled and, you know, being able to work from home because they have the accommodation that they need in their home to be comfortable and work appropriately. So I'm thinking about the dog parent that needs to take their senior dog to the vet during the day. I'm thinking about the parent that needs to get in the school, pick up line or drop their kiddo off or go and, you know, tend to a sick child. That that's definitely going to have an impact here. And so, you know, I was I was just thinking about even as Melissa was talking, could this have been a phased approach where you prepare? Yes, they started a couple of years ago with the hub conversations and, you know, their RTO conversation sooner. But I wonder if the CEO's message could have kind of been this ramp up over by 2025, we are expecting to all be in the office. And so how do you prepare folks for that? Yes, again, they had been doing some of that for the last couple of years. But I wonder if you've kind of given folks kind of this deadline and put it out a couple of years, could folks have determined what does that look like for my family? What does that look like for myself? Or do I need to self eliminate? I have time now, though, to be looking for another job versus, you know, this line has been drawn in the sand today and it's like you need to either get on board or get out. The other thing I'm thinking about is just even the tone around culture fit and how for the last few years we've been talking about, you know, using this term culture ad, right? And it's very apparent from the memo, you know, there is a certain type. And look, I'm realistic. I know that in every company, there is a culture, right? And you are looking for folks that, you know, aren't going to be completely disruptive in a negative way to that culture. But when we really talk about culture fit, when we talk about this market based approach, when we talk about what this means for folks who really benefit it from that flexible work environment, you are creating kind of this homogeneous population. And so what does that mean? What does that do for folks who have different perspectives, different experiences, different needs? Because again, that diversity is not just about how people look or what we can see, it's about experiences and thoughts and needs and wants. That also helps drive the business. And so, you know, like a lot of the conversations we've been having, you know, previously about DEI, it just makes me realize that we really have shifted just as a society, even over the last 18 to 24 months around what DEI really means from a company perspective. So I'm having a lot of those thoughts as I was reading this memo. But again, just thinking about it, what it means for corporate America in general. And I look at it from an operational perspective. So you've hit it right. I mean, there's also the diversity and how you actually work. So to your point, right? So some people work much better in a quiet area, right? You know, they don't want to be disturbed, things like that. One of the things that I noted when we ended up returning to office for a couple of days is definitely the need to give people time. So we gave them three months to let them know that this is when we wanted to come back to the office. You would have thought that was enough time for logistically for the facilities team to get that up and running to know how many people were going to come into every office. And we still had a snafu where one office did not have enough seats. So the first day everybody showed up and they were like. Mm hmm. Which I think happened here, too. Yeah. And it's like, are you kidding me right now? You didn't know how many people were in that general, you know, and I'm forcing people to get on a train for an hour to get to the office in downtown New York. I'm like kidding me right now. But OK. But beyond that is that, you know, when you start with the hybrid approach you're not bringing everyone in at the same time. And, you know, now there's so many distributed work teams. So like even if you wanted everybody to come back to the office, they can't. Right. So like what AT&T is saying is you have to come in is actually I can see the benefit of that. And I know this sounds really weird. But because when we started it was hybrid, which was great. But that meant that everyone in the office, we still had to go find a meeting room and put Zoom links up because some people were still somewhere else. Right. So instead of me sitting here at my desk and being able to take eight meetings in a row, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, I'm like running around trying to find the right building, the right floor, late to every meeting. You know, and it was really it was a struggle. Like I was like, I love people. I love that interaction. But it didn't feel like we were collaborating well. It felt like we were all like frazzled. And so there's there's also, Kadiura, to your point, but operationally, we have to figure out the new way of doing work again in the office and how to set that up. And it was great because the first week, we realized that was kind of a disaster for a lot of especially the managers and people who were meeting load heavy. And they, you know, and all the executive assistants were like, OK, we're having to put 10 minutes. It's kind of like hal time when you're at school, right? You like hal time to get to the next meeting. So every meeting is 50 minutes instead of an hour. Right. That's just how it's going to go. And it just I mean, I think those are some of the things that like just logistically and operationally, it's a lot of things that need to be thought out. It's not just show up in the office, right? You know, and I also feel like at the highest level and I, you know, as an executive, I totally agree, you know, you're paying a lot of money for rent. You're paying a lot of money for these office spaces. And so I remember talking to a founder and he was like, the check for a million a month makes me sick to my stomach. And there's two people in here. Yeah. Yep. You know, and I'm like, can't deny that, right? You know, like that is the deal, right? You're paying for all of that stuff. And so, I mean, I do feel I had employees that loved it. They came in all the time. They love, love, love that interaction. But I think that we've learned to work differently. So when you say coming in is about collaboration, it is definitely. But like, to be fair, how many great ideas are happening while you're toasting a bagel and having tea with somebody next to you? Right? Going online without ExpressVPN is like driving without a seatbelt. You might be careful, but if something risky happens, wouldn't you want to feel more secure? Well, every time you connect to public Wi-Fi, it's like you're not wearing a seat belt because your data is vulnerable and valuable like your logins and credit cards. People want them and learning how to steal your data is easy. But guess what? So is protecting it. ExpressVPN creates a secure encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet. Whether you're on a phone, a laptop or tablet, you can rest easy wherever you go. And when I say easy, I mean easy. You open the app, click a button and that's it. Look, hackers got a hack, but it's important to me that you don't fall victim to them. This one's obvious. If you could protect your data anywhere you go for about 12 cents a day, why wouldn't you? So buckle up and secure your online data today by visiting ExpressVPN.com slash fixed, that's EXPR ESS VPN.com slash fixed to find out how you can get up to four extra months, ExpressVPN.com slash fixed. Yeah, but there's a different way to say that as a leader, if that's what you want out of the situation, you could say we built this bright, beautiful office for you. I came in on a Thursday, you know, I'm the CEO, I'm stanky. I came in on a Thursday. I'm the only one here. I had an idea that I wanted to workshop in real time and no one was there. I want to see your faces again. Let's do this together. You know, that's a different, different mentality, different approach to what actually made it out into the world or meant for the employees. But now we all know what it is. It's sharing how you feel. It's sharing what your needs are and then asking the team, what are your needs? That's all right. How can I get you back into the office? What what do we need to do? You know, and getting those middle managers involved because, you know, a lot of people did not thrive working from home, right? Let's just get real, right? Like that was also a danger, you know, your isolationism and all of those kinds of things. So from that perspective, like asking the leaders and especially the leaders of teams that are distributed, what would it take and what are your concerns? And then how do we kind of get that message to everyone that we were listening? You know, these feedback loops because I don't know, I could hear you can tell me differently, but like the employee engagements are raised, I kind of hate because they come maybe twice a year, fill them out, they're kind of anonymous, but they're not. And then as an employee and even as a leader, I'm held to a, you know, you need to address these top 10 issues, OK, or not. And that's how employees feel. Employees feel like I can, it's like the Internet. I can put stuff down about Melissa and Aaron and Kadeera. I say whatever I want because I'm not accountable to what I'm saying, which I don't really like that. But at the same time, Melissa doesn't have to do anything. I mean, is she going to get dinged? Maybe. I mean, yes, it should. The employee engagement survey should be part of a leader's, you know, package. But I think that it tends to be a survey and then it kind of goes into the ether and people feel like it never gets addressed. And I hate that. And I used to say, like, can we not pick 10 things? Can we pick three things? And then can we circle back with the person that suggested idea number six that is like come up every year and we still haven't addressed it and tell them why? Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree with you. I definitely have worked at companies to your point where it kind of just goes the abyss and you're like, what's the point? I have worked at companies, though, as well, where they have taken kind of the top three, praise those top three, OK, great. How are we going to make them better? And then they take that bottom three. They've set up, you know, focus groups or committees that have kind of worked on what needs to happen. Even that, though, you still need to go a step further and say, OK, we've had these groups kind of work on suggestions for what needs to happen. We actually need to put them into place and we need to come back a quarter from now or six months from now and say, OK, here's tangibly what we did. But I think to your point, a lot of companies, you know, it's kind of a nice finger in the wind. This is great. We kind of checked in and we'll put those on the shelves somewhere and move on. It's it's one of the reasons why, like, you know, I think to your point, there needs to be this continuous feedback loop and it needs to be like this multi-prong, right? So OK, great. The employee engagement survey has kind of one role that it needs to play. I think there's also something in like, you know, pulse surveys. For example, I've done those specifically from like a DEI perspective, but it doesn't have to be. I think listening sessions. I've done listening sessions with smaller groups where folks feel a little bit more comfortable speaking up, right? There's that psychological safety. Some folks are pretty bold and vocal and we'll get up in an employee town hall. So how do we keep that space feeling safe? Maybe you kind of collect those questions at the start anonymously so folks will speak up even looking at like exit interview trends. Because again, if you're high performer, start to leave and, you know, they're willing to speak up at an exit interview, you know, you want to know what they're saying and what's going on. Now we know some folks don't like to speak up by the time they leave. It's kind of too late. But if you're able to gather that information, I would say that's another opportunity to listen. I think if there's internal platforms, again, sometimes employees are cautious and hesitant and won't speak up a lot because, again, it is still a company run platform, but again, you can collect data that way and listen. I also think, honestly, looking on like a glass door, right? And reading because, you know, listen, I have read some very raw and unfiltered feedback and while it may hurt or sting a little bit, companies definitely should be paying attention there. Again, whether it's a current employee or a former employee, I think they sometimes can specify, but that's another way to monitor just like feedback and monitor the progress and if the things that the CEO in this particular memo has outlined, if they're actually seeing progress or not, a great way to gauge it. But I think just even informally, like performance reviews often feel kind of like a one way. And again, I've been the manager and I've also been the employee. And sometimes they feel one way that that should be a two way conversation to outline those expectations, make sure it aligns with what was in the CEO's memo. Make sure that the employee has the support that they need, the tools, all the things that were called out, that were promised. And then lastly, I would say just like in one on ones, right? Yes, we know that the one on ones with their employees and opportunity to check in on the work, but feelings, how are they feeling? How are they feeling about the memo? Especially, again, it's not that you're trying to push folks out the door. But if this is an employee who, for example, you see has shown up one way, let's say, well, it's one of your high performers or someone maybe you've even been coaching and you saw improvements and now you're starting to see things starting to regress or they're going in a different direction. That's a very informal, but really beneficial opportunity to kind of listen and gather feedback right there in the moment. You don't have to wait until some of these more formal surveys and things like that. Sometimes where folks just don't even participate or they may not even be honest. But I think part of I agree with everybody you're saying, Kadeera, I think part of what came out of this is feelings. Your feelings don't matter as much. All right, this is not a place for feelings anymore. Maybe it used to be, but there's anything with longevity or loyalty or some of those what I call intangibles, you know, just are taken off the table. They're not going to be impacted or not going to be a part of your the measure of your performance anymore. But there are the one I talk about in tangibles. There are employees that are just good at those unquantifiable things, right? They're the glue. They hold things together. They're they're mediators. They're they're they're champions of others. And because of that, they create a halo effect around themselves. You know, you take those people away and you say, well, stop talking about feelings here and I'm not saying he said that explicitly, but read between the lines or something in there. But you lock down, you get into a hive mind and all those things and you take away those intangibles, you create some very different company and I did this may backfire on them. Yeah. And from an operational perspective, we know that employee morale impacts results, right? It impacts outcomes directly. And so for this type of messaging to be sent out to the employee base that feels not empathetic, feels not connected, feels very directive and authoritarian, does not feel like it's it's been thought of from any other perspective, but from the top down. It's really dangerous to the actual business because at the end of the day, what's built AT&T to where they are is not just the, you know, not just the technology. There's technology, you know, there's telecommunications technology everywhere, but it's also the people that have supported that technology, the people that are out in the field that come to your house, the people that are running, you know, who are helping you at the AT&T store when you're, you know, when your your phone's broken and your panic mode, right? All of those kinds of things are being put subjugated to a really tough situation where their loyalty to the company is being questioned. And they've been grinding, even if it's only for three months working there versus, you know, 30 years, that they've been grinding. And so to have that kind of memo sent out, it feels almost flippant. And it feels it's an insult to people because it's not that your employees don't want to transform and evolve and be the best and be number one and be competitive. But they want to do it in a way that is, you know, business needs with human factors, which is like all that Kediri you've mentioned, right? So offering that viable path forward, you know, you got to mitigate the risk. You've got to grow the operations. You've got to boost productivity. You've got to be efficient. And you have to help guarantee AT&T can transform for sustainable success. But you can't do that without your team, right? And so saying what he said, it feels like it was it was very tone deaf. And it's not that what he was saying didn't have really good points, right? There were there. There's always there's always some truth in what you say, right? The way you say it and then the way it's actually delivered and then the way it's received and so the reception of this totally in my mind has backfired. I think that, you know, CEOs who frame cultural ships, this whatever we were you were calling this the market, market shift, you know, in a shared destiny type of value, right? We grow together. We win together. You know, versus kind of this market based philosophy. It makes it seem very. It just makes it for if I was an AT&T employee right now, I would be looking around because it just feels raw. It feels like I don't matter. I'm a number. Yeah, I'm coming from a CEO that pulls down 26 million a year. Yeah. I didn't say here's the changes I'm making for myself. And here's how I'm self improving and here's the sacrifices I'm making. This is just handed top down from above. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I think the other thing and again, we talked about the employee engagement surveys and like what comes out of it. And, you know, again, he laid out some very specific things and, you know, set a few times like more to come. One of the things that if I were an employee that I would be paying attention to around this whole market based culture approach and, you know, you reward it for your performance. If you're a high performer, you'll succeed. That wants to come into the office, you'll succeed here. Is then what measures are truly being put into place, what systems are being put into place to really ensure that there is equity and how performance is measured and supported, right? It sounds great to talk about, you know, at a corporation, you succeed based on merit, but, you know, if we're honest, we know that there's other factors that go into play. And again, if I'm wearing, you know, the DEI lens, there's definitely this conversation around, you know, underrepresented groups that like merit is not good enough for people who look like me, right? And so if, you know, I would definitely be watching to see how are they going to ensure that that happens? How are they going to ensure that if I really do show up and I really am a high performer, that I am going to be rewarded for that, that I have committed to this company, that I have done my job well, how are you ensuring that I'm really going to succeed and that this is truly merit based? That in itself could be a playbook that AT&T could write again if they do it well, because it's something that a lot of companies talk about. But again, we know that that's not altogether true. Well, and I love what you're saying, because I think from a leadership perspective, the, you know, the bias that is there, even, you know, I've gone through bias training and I was shocked because as, you know, an older person, woman and person of color, I was like, shocked what my own biases were that kind of came out of this exercise. And I think you've hit it is that there needs to be transparency about what are the goals, how are we going to measure that? Because, you know, when you were talking, I was thinking about things that I've seen, like decks I've seen about good attrition and bad attrition and like, who's deciding that attrition? Very biased, right? Yep. Oh, it's it's good attrition. If it's, you know, somebody that's only been here for three months and they're in a low paying job and we have, you know, a thousand of those employees, really, is it because that's kind of saying something that you just put them through $40,000 worth of training and they didn't make it, right? Versus, you know, bad attrition is somebody we value highly. Well, what does value highly mean? Right? Right? Like, is it based on the sales you're bringing in to that? Is it based on your performance reviews? Who, which we would say could be biased as well. You know, all of the kinds of things. And so what are those metrics and KPIs that they're going to be utilizing to say that we successively accomplish what we meant to through this very specific change as well as this return to office, right? Like, you know, like, again, I think dear, you that that's holding the senior leadership accountable, right? And and to be able to show that and then to be able to admit if those numbers aren't what you thought they were going to be, right? It's like, are you able? I was talking to somebody else about this the other day. I mean, are you able to pivot? And also, are you able to admit when something doesn't go quite as planned? Ready? Good. Yeah. Totally. And if the box for what is a strong performance or even acceptability gets narrower and narrower, that can certainly impact diversity in the workforce, it can certainly impact imagination or like AT&T was the first to score the iPhone contract, like an exclusivity deal on the iPhone. Now, that didn't happen. Probably they didn't get up and shake hands one day. I took a lot of work and thinking and engineering and negotiation and all those things that went into, you know, if you're drilled down, locked down to your desk on task, you know, every day with certain expectations, you're not going to be thinking about how do we get to be the first in line for the iPhone deal or Google's got their moonshot factory where they're trying to solve impossible things or Disney has their imaginary. They do what's called Blue Sky. They call it Blue Sky speculation. Right. So they're free to come up with things that are impossible. You can't be built. That can't be built. It can't be done. OK, what can we do? You know, if you take away that mentality or that permission for employees to have diversity of perspective, diversity of individuality, of representation, all those things and you just create this singular mind, again, it just starts. You start to lose anything that made you interesting as a company. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, look, like we said at the top of the hour, I mean, I think all of corporate America is watching and it's going to be very interesting. You know, what comes out of this over the next couple of weeks, what comes out of the next couple of months, if we start to see some needles being moved, you know, how much Melissa, you probably can speak to this more, but like inside that, you know, other companies that they're watching, then do they start to kind of, OK, our CEO is going to come out with a bold memo and we're not going to have it scooped, we're going to put it out there ourselves, you know, so that folks can see the stance we're going to take. And yeah, there's been other companies that, you know, this whole return to office is not new. We've seen that shift. We've seen the cutbacks around DE and I. So I'm not suggesting that like AT&T is the first company to do such a thing. But, you know, again, kind of the line in the sand that they've drawn with some very specific things they've outlined with some very specific language and approaches. I think the what corporate America is watching is like the how. How do you carry this out? Again, there's going to definitely be some costs here. Is it worth it? How do you, you know, kind of limit those costs? And when you're on the other side of this, again, looking back, was it worth it? The company growing the way that, you know, the CEO has been talking about for the last two, three, four years, those are the things that I think corporate America, you know, other companies are going to be be watching for. And it's, you know, it's it's it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to watch. Yeah. Well, and I'm always so like, I feel like I like sometimes I wonder about these tables, executive tables, round tables and what they're thinking. Because you're right. You're like, everybody's already done this. So why didn't AT&T take some lead from Google? All right. So Google's return to office was very strict. And they came in because they realized that hybrid options were better for retaining high performers and especially in tech and in areas like they didn't want to, you know, like you could you see this all over LinkedIn, right? X Google, X Meta, whatever, whatever. Right. You know, so like those people could easily get swooped up quickly. Right. So I I I wonder, like, who is guiding the strategy around like, OK, let's just return to office and not think about like, gosh, we should should look at what happened at Meta. Let's look at what happened at, you know, let's look at what happened at Google. Let's look at what happened at, you know, Verizon or other like competitors who've had tried to do some of this. And let's learn from the best. Let's maybe, to your point, do a couple of polls surveys about like, what would people want if we were to return to office? You know, that there's a way that they need to somehow recover from this because this is not a good look. And it's not a look that they can't recover from. Right. You know what I mean? I think that it's I think they actually could, you know, shift their narrative. So it sounds like we grow together, we win together. We're in this values driven as well as creating this competitive advantage for a really tight space that we're in today, you know, and we want to be we want to be profitable, so you're profitable. Right. You know, all the things and kind of get the whole like the rallying of the troops, right, you know, but it felt like such a downer, you know, and it doesn't feel like they trust their employees to be able to like do the things that they need to be doing. So I'm just I'm interested in seeing how they make adjustments because I think those adjustments are going to be key to their success in this whole process. Well, Melissa, I guess the question is, are other companies smart enough to watch and wait, or is this a paradigm shift and they're going to see 20 percent stock bump? Let's do this also. And it just creates, you know, chaos for the foreseeable future. I think that 20 percent, you know, Kadyra mentioned it. She was like happy as a stockholder, happy about that. That's one thing to be a stockholder, a shareholder and be happy about that performance. But long term strategy, if you're abandoning your core business, you know, the operations of it, then, you know, that's that's a call as as the CEO and CFO you're making. That's the call you're making. And so, you know, I don't know what driving that in there could be. You know, I'm speculating, but I've been in other companies where we try to make our our value elevated because we were thinking about, you know, maybe being acquired or being, you know, whatever it might look like. So there's other things going on in the background that, of course, employees may not be well aware of. So to me, like saying that the 22 percent is because return to office. That doesn't sound like real to me. Like that doesn't sound like a real reason. Like I think a boost in 22 percent, like they they were like, we need to grow because otherwise we're at risk of falling into, you know, I'm making this up. But like, you know, it, you know, we're at risk of falling to Verizon or to SILX, yeah, Solier, Weill, whoever. So I do think that like that's something that they have to, you know, that that's probably behind the scenes. And so that's why I'm saying is that there's like when the messaging comes out and it is this, you know, I tend to question like, what's the real? What's the real business case? Right. What are they trying to get at? We're getting our wrap up. So we've got to fix this now. But what I'm hearing is when your employee satisfaction is in the high 70s, maybe don't change everything at once or maybe don't change things that weren't represented in the survey by creating a unilateral move that divides your employees and, I don't know, in half, but sections off a big portion of them by drawing a line in the sand. Maybe that's not the best move, even if Wall Street likes it. Because we don't know the long term effects of this. So and then bring your employees into the solution. So don't just create the solution for them and expect them to hop on board or get out, get out of the way. Say, you know, here's what we've identified. There's a contingent that is dissatisfied. We've narrowed it down to these top reasons. Maybe don't sell all the re so try to solve for all the problems at once. Pick the top two or three and then bring your employees into those solutions and be willing to make some sacrifices on your own. So if you are going to create some type of standardized measure, make sure it doesn't exclude key components of your workforce and those that are contributors, even intangible ones that help make your company what it is and hold yourself to the same standards. Don't just deliver it down and drop it and walk away and say, deal with it. This is the new normal. So if we handed that all to AT&T and and they put all this into effect and other companies stood by and let this play out and didn't rush to make the same kind of, you know, bold sweeping moves at their own companies. Did we fix it, Melissa? I think that it's more of we're warning them. So I think that AT&T has made a very bold and decisive bet. They're going to continue to look to drive profit and operational discipline by prioritizing this performance and market based culture over kind of legacy, loyalty, whatever, tenure. And they've already been successful because investor optimism confirms that they have had this short term financial success. But longer term is where I'm I'm concerned and I think that they need to pivot a little and really put into place some of the things that we'll really look at what are the business needs, adding the human factor component, adding a really strong change management communication program around this of like, let's all of the things that Kateria was mentioning, let's have like listening sessions, let's do skip levels, let's do one on one, let's do false surveys. Let's understand the impact and let's address those things in a real authentic way. I think that they can continue to go forward this way, but they're going to have to pivot on some of the hard stances that they made because I don't think that that is going to fare well in the long run. I like that. Kateria, what do you say? Yeah, I mean, I would echo what both of you have said. I think there's there's a couple of just to build out on a couple of things. One, you know, the system. So all eyes are on AT&T for sure. Right. Again, it's not that they're necessarily doing anything new around the RTO or being performance driven or just the change management, nothing new. But I think all eyes are on them just because they've laid out some very specific things. And so given that those the executive team should be huddled together, as I'm sure they are, and a couple of things they should be looking at what systems are going to be in place, put into place to ensure transparency and accountability around this whole market based approach, around being a performance driven company to ensure that there's equity, that they are bias free. Hopefully they've got a chief diversity officer or someone that is going to be working right alongside of those folks to ensure that these are tried and true approaches and not just something that a couple of folks think is a good idea, because there's going to need to be some work there. You're really talking about dismantling systems. And that is not easy work. All everybody has to be on board to ensure that that's really happening. And again, that was one of the key things that he talked about in his memo. So how are they going to ensure that that happens? So that's one. And then for sure, engaging their employees, the direction is out there now. It's not too late. They're going to have to do a little bit to kind of build that trust back with their employees, but it's not too late to get is, you know, just as Melissa was saying, those listening sessions in place, I would get some small groups of employees together and start saying, OK, here's our charge. Here's our marching orders. Here's what we're going to do. Help us build this out so that it works for you. We want to retain you. We want you to be here. Help us go into the next century with this company. So I would start there. I love that. That's so much better than what actually happened. So I know I was just like, I'm in it. Yeah, I'm following all the way. Well, that does it for this episode. Kadyra, great call on the topic. There were a lot of layers to this one. And I really like what you had to say. Melissa, likewise and ditto. Great stuff all the way through. AT&T, I hope you listen and pick up on what we're saying. Our fix could be a nice compromise that gets everybody what they want. We are here to help. So give us a call. We'll even come to your office. Let's figure this out in person. To all of you keep listening to our show, phone a friend and tell them to listen to or send a telegraph if that's more your speed. If there's a company we simply must fix or you'll lose your mind. 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