Parental Alienation: Love your Kids More Than You Hate Your Ex with Advocate Kindra Riber

Welcome to Obsessed, where Mika, Tia and I challenge the thoughts that limit you, where we provide the tools for transformation, be prepared to be swept away into the raw power of obsession, unlocking secrets and stories behind the insatiable hunger for growth and change. This is more than just a podcast, this is your story. It is a manifesto for those who refuse to settle, who dare to dream and who are relentless in the pursuit of living a great life. Get obsessed with your life. We are talking divorce today. We are talking the joy and the pain of divorce. It can be joyous in a way if you are cutting ties with a partner who was not meant to be your partner. We are talking the trials and tribulations of divorce. Don't know exactly what the statistics are in terms of it. It used to be 50% of all marriages ended divorce, which is a travesty if you think of it. However, Kindre Ryber is spearheading through legislative initiatives on how to navigate divorces in a healthier way if there is such a healthy way at all in terms of divorcing because I don't know, it's a heavy subject, but let me tell you, if anyone can handle this heavy lift, it is Kindre Ryber of the Aftermath podcast, which you guys have to check out. We'll have the link in the show notes. Kindre, welcome. So excited to see another squad member here. Woo-hoo! Thanks, Julie. Yeah, I'm so excited to be here with you ladies. I was just thinking about it earlier and I don't think I've talked to you guys in probably a year, maybe more. That's right, Shulio. I saw you when I come. But I had to call you a couple of months ago. Yeah, okay, Jules. I'm cleaning. Tia and Mika, I have not seen or talked to in person. We used to meet once a week back over COVID and that was amazing how we connected. And then we met in person in Wisconsin a couple of years ago and then I feel like we've lost touch. So I'm excited to be here. So I can see you. I'm sure if you think about it, the real world started again and the connections were harder to keep. Yeah. That's crazy. That doesn't make... Yeah, it's crazy to think about. It sucks, but it's also just the world we live in right now. Okay. Nothing is what it seems, right? Nothing is what it seems. Yes. I would love to kick this off with a classic. Kendra, what are you obsessed with? I am obsessed with miniature Highland cows, anything Highland cows. The cute little cows with the little horns and they run around and they have like shaggy fur. Oh my gosh, they're adorable. I want one. I want one. I want this little country farmhouse. I want some miniature little pigs and Highland cows and chickens and yeah, it's green acres. If you've ever seen green acres, take the city girl and put her in the country. That's me. Because you're such a city girl. So I'm surprised your dream as country living, that is so far. Unlike there's Kendra in a city and now, wow, Kendra on a farm. Yes, I know. Wow. I mean, maybe I have to have my own show or something. What is the thing that everybody knew was doing on my own YouTube and my TikTok and everybody follow me and make some money that way? Hey, I'm with you on that because it's all about living your life. How has divorce changed your life? Because you have a family, you have two boys. Tell us for those that don't know this journey. It actually leads me to why I like the Highland cows and it's because when I got divorced, I was always so into the everyday things that we get into where you're very busy and you're very worried about cleaning and cooking and making sure that bags are packed for school and things are together and I never really stopped to smell the roses, we'll say. And when I got divorced, I learned that those weeks that I had the kids were my weeks to focus on them, but the weeks that I didn't have the kids because we were alternating every other week and I know everybody does a little bit differently, but that just worked for us. So when I didn't have the kids, I really stopped and slowed down, focused on myself, did a lot of meditating, did a lot of just in time with nature and God and I just, that's when I learned that I loved chickens and I love the farm because I could be out just breathing and being in nature and just experiencing whatever was going on and being silent for an hour or two and that was very therapeutic to me. Got to take a step back and live slower in a way and really tap into who is Kendra in this season it sounds. I know from my experience too of just life changes, like stepping back and being quiet and being away from the noise, away from the city, away from all that is where we find ourselves again. What did you learn about yourself in that season? How did life start evolving and changing from there? Because I know your story gets so much bigger than that and so much deeper than that. I would love for you to just give us as much of an overview you can in this time period and share with people how you made it through and how you tapped back into those roots. Yeah. So family has always been big to me. My family extended family, sisters, brothers and then when I have my own children and my husband at the time, that was big for me. That was always my core. And so when I was ripped away and I made, I really truly do believe it takes two to get divorced. So whatever the reason was or whatever the reason being that we got divorced, when I was able to be by myself, I was able to focus and look back and reflect and say, okay, what could I have done better to make the relationship better that I was in so that I don't make those same mistakes moving into a relationship later? And then I also just made a list of everything that I liked and didn't like, you girls would love this because there's a movie with Julia Roberts. And I don't remember what it's called, but I reference it a lot. I really need to look it up. She's made to eat all these different eggs and she usually chooses the eggs with her boyfriend that she's with or the husband she's with at the time. So when she's by herself, the reflection is you go back and she was just making all the eggs of all the different ways poached and scrambled and over easy and over medium and just omelet. She was trying everything. So she figured out what she liked. And that's really what I did for a good year after our divorce was really figure out who am I again? What do I like doing? What do I want to be a part of? And then what don't I want in my life that's negative? So it was a really evaluation. Going through the divorce. Was that sleeping with the enemy by the way or no? The movie, I don't know. I don't know. The truth is that divorce, going through a divorce is probably, they say death and divorce are the worst things you can ever experience. And even the best of friends, and I've seen this before, they're people saying, I want to have an amicable relationship and I want a friendly split. Even the friendliest of splits, they don't turn out that way. So tell us, can you share with us a little bit of your story? So we can connect the dots because yours is not one that I would wish on my worst enemy. And I don't mean to put that burden on you, Kendra, because I've known you throughout this whole process. And I was always like, how does she handle it with such grace and with such abundance yet? I remember saying to you one time, do you think you need a therapist? And you're like, no, I've got it all together. I'm like, you're not going to hold this all together, woman. I guess we all are put through our own challenges at our own times in our lives. And I think you look at it as the glass is half full or half empty. And you can either take your mess and make it your message, or you can live and be stuck and play the poor me card as you go through and not use it as a growth tool. And so that's what I really did with the divorce. We separated not my choice, but we separated because of some infidelity that was happening. And so that was hard to swallow. That was really hard for me to swallow for a long time. I don't know if you guys have ever watched the war room, but I am very faithful. It's fluctuated. That's why I say I was, right? It's been up and down. But the war room is where you just turn a room in your house into the prayer sanctuary. And it's all about praying for your relationship. So that's the first place that I went when we were having problems. And I found out about the infidelity and I just went to praying for us. And so at that point, I wasn't ready to end the marriage. However, things happened after that. That made me in the next couple of months realize that I don't want to. This isn't the position that I want my boys to see me in where I'm second best or I'm second in line. So this isn't valuable to me. And so at that point, I had to make the decision to separate. So we separated. And for the first year, we went back and forth, the typical divorce, arguing, bickering, saying bad things about each other, behind each other's back to the boys, getting them involved in things and adult conversations that shouldn't have happened. And then, but you're learning as you go through it. And but you have so much anger build up, so much resentment and so much hate towards each other. It's hard to separate the kids out from it for a little while. But I will say we got better at it. But what I didn't know was everything that was happening on the other side was very manipulative. And there was a long term plan happening where on my side, it wasn't. And that was the difference. And so after about a year, we had gone back and forth again, whether it's week on week off, I don't know, we switched through, we went through the court system, we tried what they suggested that didn't work. But we got to a point at least where we were okay. Then I took the children on a couple of different vacations. And one of those vacations, there was an altercation between my oldest and I about it. It wasn't about his phone. I took away his phone. And because I took away his phone, he got upset. And it turned into my mom beat me. I'm mad at you. So he came back and told his dad, the judge, interviewed the children and said, you know what, this is just a typical divorce case where we see the children are wanting to pit one parent against the other to try to win on one side or the other, get favored. And it's just, that's all it is, right? And the problem is children are made up of the DNA from both the parent of the mother and the father. And so they're trying to not be in the middle because they want to love both parents, but they feel like they have to choose in a divorce. And that's horrible. And that's the worst prior divorce. So you're right, Julie, yours was an exception because it was so great. And now you guys get along, but it didn't start that way is what you had told me. And so that's where ours was. Well, once that allegation of abuse went into the court system, it changed the whole outlook of what our divorce was going to be. So the divorce actually took three years. And in that three years, I saw the boys very little. There was very little reunification therapy, even though the judge had ordered it. There was very little contact. The boys didn't want to see me anymore. Little did I know they were getting emotionally punished, logically on the other side if they did see me. And so it just turned into what something was called was parental alienation. I had never heard of it before. And I just dove in and just started figuring things out, finding the experts, reading, seeing a podcast like this and trying to learn what parental alienation was and how I prevent it or what it is moving forward. And now Julie, it's blown up so much bigger. Like you said, now I'm part of the legislative group that is changing all because it's impacting so many parents and so many parents are speaking out. So I was recently on a documentary called We the Parents. In that documentary, there's actually several of us parents that tell our story and just put it out there for anybody at the legislative level to make some changes and all 50 states need it. And there's a couple of states that have already done it. But you know what? I'm funneling my mess into my message and helping other parents that way. And oh, sorry, Tia, were you going to say something? I saw her take a big breath. And the fact is that we are just skimming the surface of your story. And it is one that would blow your minds. I, yes, got it to us. And yes, my husbands, meaning my current husband and my ex-husband, they hang out. They're great. It's really odd and weird. And the Demi Moore, Bruce Willis kind of vibe. But it usually doesn't end up that way, right? It usually ends up in a firestorm of just hell. And I always ask the question. I remember asking Kendra, I go, why don't parents love their children more than they hate their exes? And I don't understand that. I don't understand how we can give birth to these kids and make their lives hell because we're upset at their mother or father. And I'm going to go off. So I better just be quiet. Here's the thing. It's not that they're more upset. It's probably the way it starts. Then they believe so much that they're protecting their kids from a horrible person on the other side. And they truly do believe that what they're doing is in the best interest of the children at that point. And that's when things get lost and hairy and just out of control. Being your mess into your message and your why behind what you're doing is bigger than anyone that I know. I don't know anyone who can take the pain and make it so powerful the way you have. Julie mentioned earlier, you can not only mentally and emotionally carry this lift right now and talk about it so eloquently and with a lot of knowledge behind it because you did dive in deep. You are now also physically getting yourself in and lifting really heavy too. And I don't think that one comes out without the other needing to take care of yourself healthily. Like you said, with your mental and emotional health. And I know Julie mentioned maybe a therapist would help, but you know yourself so well and you are carrying this and showing up and look at you like you're doing this. You're being the parent that you want to be for your kids even while you are being alienated from them. Wow. That's not. You're being a parent and you're not physically around your children. That is a testament. Like she's your parenting yourself in this process and changing into the person that you want to be the person you desire to be and deserve to be at the end of this. What is the end? I don't know. There probably isn't one right, but you're going for it and that's so powerful. Like how are you still doing this? What is right now you're driving force today with your podcast and your YouTube and getting the message out there because you are the first person I know of that talks about parent alienation. It's not something that I didn't even know what it was to you. She was just talking about. I was like, who and we are also live on stream married for all those listening on our Apple podcast or Spotify. The funny thing is I see a lot of men here right now, like men, which is interesting to me because I don't know. Maybe Kendra can speak to that. Yeah. So several things that I can touch on there is what's the driving force behind it right now. Tia and why I keep doing it is because just like yesterday, I got a message from somebody I didn't even know followed me, followed what I'm doing and said, I'm so thankful for your support and what you're doing to change the law and how you're standing up for us because I couldn't tell my story right. And I think that's the big thing. I am there and I am representing for those parents that can't talk right now, that can't put words behind their story because they're down and out. Julie mentioned that I was just always great and didn't need a therapist, but yet I needed emotional support and my family was a huge emotional support for me, for my parents and grandparents, the boyfriend that I had been dating for the last couple of years and just huge emotional support from friends around me. Not everybody has that. And especially when you start explaining what's going on because they just think, oh, you did something to your kids to make them mad at you and you're crazy. No, you're not crazy. There's lots of us out there that are trying to connect with our kids and because they are being told a different version of who we are, if you don't react appropriately and it's very psychological at this point because the courts have let it get to this point, then if you don't react the right way with your kids, you're only going to tell the story and play into the other parent and their manipulation. It's going to make you look like the bad guy. So again, there's a lot of learning that goes involved with it. That's the whole reason I do it, Tia. Julie, there's a lot of guys going through it. I see California had mentioned on there that they need it in their state and they are working on it. I do know there's some different proposed bills out there in California right now for 50-50 equal shared parenting. But I think the big thing, we saw it with guys before. We saw it with males, but we always just assumed and I'm talking 30, 40 years ago. Say typically courts want the mother to be involved and now it's switching a little bit. Yes. Correct. We used to see the men step out of the picture for so long. It started where the men obviously got custody a long time ago. We're talking years ago. Then the women took over because they thought it was better for the woman to raise the children. And then now we look back and we're like, oh, did the guys really step out? Did the fathers really not want to be fathers? No, it's because they can't afford court and they can't afford all of these allegations against them. I interviewed a lawyer. He owns a very prestigious law firm. But if you checked out the aftermath on our podcast, you'll hear, but he said protection orders are used as weapons. And so that's eventually what was happening was women was coming after the men saying they abused them or their children. And once you have allegations of abuse in court, the judge backs off and says, I don't want anything to do with it, whether it's true or not. And if it's proven that it didn't happen, it still might have maybe an Idaho mic name connected to it. So we're just going to err on the side of caution and not give dad visitation or give him limited or give him supervised. And so the dad's just said, I spent $190,000 on my case and I'm still in it four years later. Right. What the heck? But you, oh yeah. Oh, I think we just lost Jules. $190,000. I hear people that spend $700,000 on their case. Who can afford that? That's what drives me every day is the good loving parent. Just because they got a divorce does not mean that they shouldn't see their kids and they should not have to pay that amount of money to see their kids. This is ridiculous. So the law should be equal shared parenting when you come right out the gate, whether it's making decisions medically, whether it's seeing the kids, whatever it is, not one person should just be accused or not one person should just have the availability or the, what I want to say, you popped up a thing and it threw me off track. I said, well, one parent should not have custody and make all the decisions. It should be still both parents involved and one shouldn't have primary custody over the kids as far as visitation. The other one say, oh, I only get to visit on Wednesdays in the weekends. It's not right. That's not what a divorce is. Do you think like people getting married need an exit plan? There's the pre-nup, of course. And if you sign a pre-nup, it doesn't really work. But do you need an exit plan when you're getting married these days with odds stacked against us? Yeah. I don't know. That's a good question. That's a good question. I don't know. And this is not doom and gloom. This is just a reality check for all of us. Anyone that's in a relationship that everything seems sunny one day and then the next day. Nobody gets into a relationship. Assume ever. Never in a divorce, right? That's not what you get into one in the first place. When the stakes are so high, yeah, there's pre-nups for money and physical items, but your children, there shouldn't be a plan for that. That the stakes are way higher for children versus just these things that we acquire in life that don't come with us anyway. Yeah. I'm having problems hearing you. Sorry. Maybe you could put it in the chat. I'll answer. Yeah. Mika, I think you had asked the question earlier, emotional support and where I got that from. And I think the big thing is, Tia, you touched on it. I had to go work out. I had to find ways that I could release my anger, my tension, all my feelings. But everything that I had to go through, I had to find ways that I could release my anger, my feelings. But every therapist that I had talked to was more interested in hearing how we got there to that point. And so I had to just retell my story, but they weren't helping me or giving me any tools to get out of the situation. Now, recently I did EMDR therapy. Oh, I've heard that's amazing. That's amazing, completely amazing and released a lot of emotions that I still had built up after. Can you explain what EMDR is just for everybody? Does it help as I understand? Yeah. So it is basically a tapping process. And so it's a visualization that you create and then it's a tapping. They call it a rapid eye movement or eye movement, not rapid eye movement and eventually it started off by just moving your eyes. Now it's tapping on the knees. Maybe it's tapping on a shoulder back and forth. It is absolutely amazing, but it's just visual. And at first I started off and I was skeptical and I was like, okay, I don't know what we're doing here. I don't know where we're going. I'm five minutes into it. I'm like, this is weird. And by the end of it, my body had really so much tension and I just felt better. I released tears. I had built up anger. A lot of it was fearing the other parent on what they were going to do to me. And so it was releasing that because I have been, people would not believe my story if I went into all of it, but let's just say I've had criminal allegations as well as allegations of abuse through the domestic system. So court system. So because of it, I was separated from my kids for about a year and seven months total along with the extended family because in a protection order, they advised that anybody extended if they mentioned anybody that's in the protection order, they could go to jail. So for a year and seven months, I could not talk to my children. Nobody from our family could talk to my children. And so then they were told that we didn't love them. And so now they have this perception that we didn't love them and we weren't there for them because we weren't able to talk to them. But everything that you could have happened to you, I feel like I did. And so I released a lot of that during that therapy. That makes sense to me. Like I know talk therapy is a lot about going to past and reorganizing the events in your life to see how you view them today. And that's not what you need right now. You need action steps. You need things that are actually going to help you today and a plan. Is that why you've become a co-parenting mentor? Yeah, I think so. I didn't really question it. It was just where my path took me. It was where I just felt like I could give back to those parents that need help and need somebody to talk to that does understand it. Like you said, Tia, because I mean, talk therapy can only do so much. But if you actually understand what's going on in the situation, you can relate to so many different people. I know, you know, we have a guest that's watching right now, Tom, and Tom has been through it. And he is a law enforcement officer. He was on our podcast and he went through the same exact thing. You would be shocked at the things that the court systems can do to you and keep your kids away from you. And then to find out it's all for nothing. And now we have to start over because the courts don't believe in just giving the kids back to you. Now you have to be reunited with the kids. So what that means is you have to now be sitting with a supervised visitation and your child has to sit there and somebody else has to watch you play with your child for an hour. And then maybe it's four hours and then you build up to maybe a weekend or eight hours. And then you can build back up to 50-50. And that's exactly what happened to me, which is absolutely ridiculous because I've been their mom since they were born. So it's just crazy. It's incredible. And we know our girl Tia is pregnant with her second baby. And just the thought, can you even, I don't even want her to imagine this. When Kindra was pregnant with her second son, you could never imagine this in your wildest dreams at all. And it is about making the best circumstance for your children. And this is what gets me so mad when the courts intervene, the courts take over as parental visionaries for what we want. And people, what was the movie, the marriage? Has anyone seen that movie, The Marriage? How attorneys, and I'm not saying anything bad about attorneys. Yeah, I'm not. But attorneys and the court can create more chaos in the family unit than you can ever imagine. And does reunification therapy, does it work or does it not work? And that's where we try to get, and I'm not saying we, but where we try to get parents who are fighting for justice in their minds, fighting for their child's rights in their minds. They put them in a room and you have to go to therapy for what, eight months, 10 months? Yeah. It can be so traumatizing, actually. Yeah, the last therapist that we went to, reunification counselor, will say the judge ordered that and thought it would be a great idea, which I thought it would be too, have somebody sit with us and just be that mediator in between. However, when I asked her, when she interviewed my ex-husband and myself, and then interviewed us together, or had a session together with us, I asked her, I said, how many times do we need to do this until I actually am with the kids? And she said, it could take up to two years. I was like, two years. And keep in mind, you're paying the attorneys, you're paying for this counseling to have. In addition to that, the court systems like to have separate counselors for each of you. So the children have their own counselor you're paying for, your counselor, then your ex's counselor. And typically, you're paying for all of it until the very end, until you actually go to court. Can I tell you in four years, I've been in the court once, one time I got into the courtroom. And that was our final divorce. The rest of it has all been negotiated between judges and attorneys behind the scenes on a telephone conference. Oh my gosh, that doesn't, that does not sound right. That's, first of all, how can anybody afford this? And you had to pay 100% of this stuff upfront. And you still don't get to see your kids. You're not getting the thing that you're fighting for. You're not even seeing them face to face while you're doing this. Wow. I just, I'm in shock. I have no words for that. Yeah. And it's tough too, because you're emotionally going through everything to you. And you're trying to also be your own advocate in court because your attorney doesn't know your story. But in addition to that, you've still got to be a parent. So Mika posed a question earlier that how do you still keep in contact with your kids? Or how do you tell them that you're not that horrible person? And you have to do the actions to, that doesn't support what the other parents saying. So for example, if they're saying they don't love you, they don't remember you, still send cards. I send cards every week to my boys. I, they're blocked on social media. They're blocked on the cell phones. I don't know if they're going to talk to them because my ex controls that the court system could give two craps. If we talk or not, it's really not supported. I had 15 contempts filed against my ex that was never heard in court that was just dropped. Wow. So it's just, it's crazy. So my advice for any parent that's out there that's going through a divorce or, and again, I didn't think this was going to happen. I really thought my life was good with a white picket fence, two boys, a husband. But if you are going through this, if you start seeing the separation, if you start seeing this divorce, if your ex starts talking bad about you to the children or start putting things in their head and then the children are starting to ask you questions about the divorce or have adult conversations or you can tell just isn't them. That is the time then that you can flag and say, okay, this might be the start of parental alienation and you have to be very aware and you really have to check into all the resources that are out there. There's tons of them. Educate yourself before you make a mistake and maybe do the wrong thing that might continue to turn your kids against you or see that negative person that the other person is trying to portray. Sometimes it's just inevitable and it's going to happen because they emotionally abuse them and typically the children aligned with the parent that's not as strong. I'll never forget. I'll give you one last example as we wrap up, but I'll never forget when my son was sitting on his bed and he started crying and he said, I said, what's wrong? He said, I need to call dad. And I said, why do you need to call dad? And he said, because I need to check on him because he wasn't good. He passed out and hit his head when we were at a store last week because he's upset and not eating right. And I said, oh, okay. And I said, all right, that's fine. But then I chuckled and I tried to make light of it and I said, don't you ever worry about me? And this brings a full circle to you because we were talking about what I'm doing for myself. He said, no, mom, because you have friends. You go out. You stay active. You have a great job. He goes, you work out all the time. He goes, you have things to do. He said, I don't worry about you. And that was the light bulb because if you read a lot of the psychological things on parental alienation, that was the light bulb. They said, okay, what my son knows is I'm going to be okay and I will love him if he needs to leave and come back. And so that's what we needed to do is he had to leave. I had to accept that. And when he comes back, he knows I'll be okay in the meantime and I'll accept him and love him when he comes back. Wow. You make me cry. So you are like pregnant, so it's easy to make me cry. But it is so sad when you are, if we think we're at Tia's stage where we are baking a little baby, I'm going to say, boy, I'm putting it out there. I think it's coming, boy. But if you are having a child, like to think of putting this like innocent little being in the midst of such just animosity and hatred, who could do that? Who could do that? And wake up parents. I'm going to tell you right now, wake up. What is the cost? What are we doing to our children? What are we doing? It makes me sick to my stomach actually thinking about this. And I've known Kendra's story for a while, but wake up, stop it right now. Pull your big girl panties on or big boy panties on. It's disgusting. And that's why we need more people like Kendra, a rival of the aftermath podcast here. Kendra, you are amazing. Sharing your story, I know is always hard, but I'm going to tell you one thing. When your children are old enough to figure out what you're doing and who you really are as a true human being, they're going to Google this podcast. They're going to see how much you love them. And that's the end of the story because you are strong and strong. You will be vindicated at some point. It might not look like how you wanted it to be from day one. Happy family sharing 50, 50 custody saying hi to the X sitting next to X in at football games or soccer games. It's not going to look like that, but you are strong and we love you. We're obsessed with Kendra Ryber. Thank you. We love you. We love you guys. We love you and anyone going through this. Google Kendra Ryber. Reach out to her on Instagram or follow her on YouTube. Everything's going to be in the show notes. Thanks guys. We're stronger than this. Let's put the kids first. Thank you for listening to another episode of obsessed. We're obsessed with you. Show your love by rating, reviewing, subscribing and sharing with your friends. Every time you share, you are changing someone else's life until we meet again. Get obsessed with your life. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.