Bobby on the Beat. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Bobby on the Beat. Today, we have a very special guest, Marcus Samuelson. Marcus and I go way back. We have lots of stories to tell. So welcome, Marcus. I'm so glad to have you here. Thanks for having me. You and I have a connection that is an important part of the rise of who you are. Yeah. I just happen to be standing there. But it's a story that I want to tell, if that's okay with you. Absolutely. like even you know we see each other so many different things and most of us have a lot of people around us but when it's like I know I'm gonna speak to you I always think about it. Right but you grew up most of your life in Sweden right? Yeah. Yeah I mean and that and that's and that's kind of an important part of the story because I want to tell this I want to tell a little bit of the story from my point of view obviously your point of view is is way more deep than mind because you lived it. But for me, Aquavit, you know, the highest end Swedish restaurant in America for sure. Maybe in the world. In the world, absolutely. Yeah, okay. And I wouldn't know, but yes, probably in the world. At that point. Yes, for sure. I had Mesa Grill. We opened Mesa Grill in 1991. In 1994, I opened a restaurant called Bolo, which was my first Spanish restaurant. So when I was opening Mesa Grill, I was holding, you know, sort of auditions for people to cook in the restaurant. It's a lot different than it is today. I mean, we had people in droves coming to who wanted to cook in the restaurant. And it was a brand new restaurant at Fifth Avenue. It was a lot shinier than the restaurant you were talking about, Miracle Grill in the East Village. And it was on the bright lights of Fifth Avenue as opposed to, you know, being in the East Village, which at the time was not a very safe place to be. One of the cooks who kept coming back and back, and it took me a while to hire him, was from Sweden. His name was Jan Sendel. He was working for a high-end Mexican restaurant called El Teddy's. I had called the chef there, and I said, what do you think of this guy? And he's like, you know, he's got a little bit of an attitude. And I was like, check. We can rest in peace, but yes. Yes, okay. And so he came and I didn't hire him. He kept coming back and back. This is the kind of story that you hear and read about in books. I like him already, you know. Exactly. He kept coming back and he said to me, please, I will cook for you. I want to work for you so badly. I am so interested in these flavors and what you're about to do here at Mesa Grill. And my manager at the time, a woman named Fran Bernfeld, who came from Miracle Grill with me, said to me, you know, and she was the most reasonable and relaxed person I've ever worked with. And she's like, Bobby, hire this kid. He wants it. Yeah, he wants it. Like, who cares what his reference was? Like, the guy didn't say he was like a murderer. Like, he said he's got a tough attitude. Okay, great. He's in the restaurant business. So I hired him. And it turned out to be an amazing hire. And he was dedicated to perfection. and every station that he worked, he went and perfected and he went around the kitchen over three years and he would go home. He was a young guy, had a young wife and he would go home and he would put his chef coat on. We used to make fun of him and he would put his chef coat on and start prepping at home and make dinner. So he never stopped cooking. I opened Bolo and he came to me at this point he had worked his way up to Sous Chef because he was so dedicated everybody wanted to eat there in fact the owner of Aquavit Hawk on Swan would come once a week it felt like I got to know him and I knew he had this very important Swedish restaurant and I said to him a couple of times jokingly I have your future chef in my kitchen that's a good comment that's a good comment No way. And I was like, he's from Sweden. Yeah. He doesn't really know a lot about Swedish food, ironically, but he's an amazing worker and a smart guy, and he's dedicated to his profession. And I'm telling you that at some point, if you don't hire him to be the chef of your restaurant, you're making a mistake. Wow. And he literally was like, yeah, sure, Bobby. Year goes by, I open Bolo, and I give him the chef de cuisine job at Mesa Grill. Wow. And it goes on for about a year. And he calls me about a year later and says, can I sit down and have a conversation with you? I said, sure. He said, I got it. He said, I'm very, and he was shaking. And he said, I am very nervous because I have a job offer and I don't want to take it, but I'm so rattled by it. And I was like, what's the job offer? And he said, they offered me the head chef job at AquaVie. And I just started laughing. and I was like, well, I'm firing you because you have to take the job. Like, this is your moment. This is, you're a Swedish guy. This is the most important Swedish restaurant probably in the world. Go, fly. And he was 30. 30 or 31. He was very young. Long story short, took the job. Also, in the interim, asked if he could take one of my sous chefs with him, Larry Mannheim, because he just felt he needed some backup. We need Larry. Right. Everyone needs a letter when you open the kitchen. So I let two of my most important people go to Aquavit. But you know what? But that's, Marcus, that's our business. We were taught to be generous with each other. So I lost two of my people. But of course, I was on the phone with them once a day because they were asking me how to do things. Now, I didn't know this, but you were in the kitchen. Yeah. And you were cooking there. Yeah. Very young guy. How old were you? 23. Oh, my God. So Jan was there for, I don't know, a month or so or two months. It was a very short period of time. It seemed like a day to me when I think about it. There was no internet then. No. The most important thing that you got was like, obviously the New York Times, but that was way down the line for him. And he got a story in New York Magazine about him being the new chef. This Swedish guy who was the sous chef at Mesa Grill who was going to be taking over the kitchen at Aquavit. It was such a big deal. And he said to me, he called me on a Thursday, and he said, I made it. He said, I'm in New York Magazine, my photo, they're going to announce me as the new chef at Aquavit. It's coming out on Monday. And over the weekend, he died. Which was shocking to all of us, of course. Obviously, I went to the funeral at the Swedish church in New York, etc. It was just it was such an awful awful occurrence Yeah Bobby I mean it everything about that story the good and the bad and the ugly in that story all of it, it speaks to New York City's hospitality in the 90s, right? Because it talks about mentorship, it talks about, you speak about ambition. Jan was all of those things, right? And I remember one thing, And I've never, out of respect for him, done this dish. But he showed me a dish. Very simple. And think about it. This is 1995. He showed me. He did a tiny lobster salad, just like simple lobster salad. Simple aioli with lemon. Chopped chives. And then he cubed an Asian pear. And wrapped it with pickled daikon and gave it to me. it's still to this day the best version of lobster i've ever had right and i was like i can't put this it's not my dish this is john's dish and i i had to like cut the pear i had to like pickle the daikon none of that was his strength but he knew this dish in his head and he was about to put that on on the menu so it was like for me it was the easiest job in the world like he knows flavors better than me or ahead of me and i have these french techniques so i was like we're gonna be this killer pair, right? You know, it was horrible what happened. So anyway, you became the chef, right? And then your career, your whole life took off. I mean, you got three stars in the New York Times and then it was like one accolade after the next. How old were you when you got the three-star review? 24, 23, 24. I mean, ridiculous. I mean, seriously. I mean, I opened Mesa Grill when I was 25 and people say to me- Which is super, super young. People say, like my daughter always says to me, she's like, Dad, how did you do that? But like the fact that you were 24 years old getting three stars in the New York Times at this like spectacular restaurant, like was it surreal to you? Were you too young to understand what it was? I didn't know who Ruth Reichel was. I didn't read the New York Times. I didn't know what food and wine or Bon App. So when you saw you're just cooking, and I wasn't even tapped into New York at that level yet, right? They said, we're going to be reviewed. And I think at that point it came out on a Sunday. I think the room, either Friday or Sunday, I don't remember. Fridays, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, what are we going to do when she's coming? And Hawkins was like, what are you talking about? It's already done. It's done, you know? And then it's like, it's good they want to come and take pictures. He's like, that's good because that means that it's not going to be bad at least. So, yeah, it was just one of those things like, listen, it was a tragic moment, obviously, but somebody has to take over. Yeah. And you were the guy. All right, so I made you a snack. Yeah. I love this. It's like a pork and Korean Asian wrap. I got it. Bobby on the beat. All right, Korean-style pork lettuce wraps. Let's get it on. We're going to first dice up some scallions, and then we're going to crush a little bit of fresh garlic and grate some ginger. This is going to be for the marinade. All this is going right into the marinade to tenderize and flavor the pork. Some goju jang, Korean-style red pepper paste, the ginger, the garlic, a little bit of soy or tamari, and then we have some orange juice, a little salt and pepper, and a little bit of avocado oil as well. And then we're going to slice up some pork shoulder, kind of really paper thin. Otherwise, it's not going to be as tender as we want. And we're going to put it in the marinade, and I would say three to four hours or overnight if you can. A little spice rub on the outside, salt and pepper on both sides. Very, very hot grill, and you want to get it really nice and crusty. So we cook this with intense high heat, so crusty on the outside, and nice and juicy on the inside, takes like, I don't know, three minutes max, and it's really tender. Now we're going to layer the lettuce wraps, a couple of pieces of lettuce, some sushi rice that's been cooked, of course, some of the pork that's been diced up, some sesame seeds, a mixture of kojujang, soy and honey, that's kind of the drizzle, and some fresh herbs like cilantro and some Thai basil. And actually, I'm going to put just a little bit of kimchi I have it in my refrigerator and I like that fermented flavor. And oh damn, I got a little on my cheek. Bobby on the beat. I love Koji Jang so much. It's so good. Koji Jang is like, it's a great way to cheat flavor because it has so many different things happening at one time. Yeah, it's your Chipotle from 95. You've been able to evolve in a spectacular way. And frankly, that's what it takes. one hit yeah a hit record a hit restaurant whatever it is yeah it's not that it's easy no it's really really hard but the second one is even harder and the third one and especially if they're different cuisines or different approaches and you've been able to do that like when you open red rooster like you set harlem on fire no i mean and i'm a native new yorker like i love harlem i love i love what's going on in Harlem. I always have. Yeah. And you come out and support us many times. Oh, absolutely. You did the first Harlem meetup with us. And I don't remember what you said to the crowd. It's like, it take a fucking Ethiopian suite to do this festival in Harlem? No, exactly. Where we been? And I was just laughing. I said to Herb, our partner, I was like, that's like the best compliment. We can shut the **** down now. I got the best compliment. Well, I mean, well, first of all, like Harlem is a melting pot of the world. I mean, I used to hang out in Harlem in the Italian section. Yes, of course. Like on Pleasant Avenue. I'm about to walk into Red Rooster, I kind of look around and I feel like you've lit up six blocks in circumference. You've obviously created value there for sure. I'm sure you've raised the rents for the restaurants around you. I'm sure they don't love that. I appreciate that. But listen, but there's a party going on there every single day and it's amazing. yeah it's amazing there's two things with red rooster that most people don't know after 9 11 i was shell shot and i called my mom's like i think it's time to go and she's like i'm coming you're not leaving you can leave when you're ready to leave but you're not leaving because of this right so my mom came from sweden really moved in with me and i was i was really depressed and i was like i can't work depressed it doesn't work with us like we got to be creative so i I couldn't beat it. I was like, what am I gonna do? And then my mom said to me, hey, I know you're always happy when you go to Harlem. You always tell me, you always call me. Why don't you just look for an apartment there? And I was like, and she's like, why do we always, first of all, Marcus, why are your restaurants always expensive? Why are they always so far away from- Is your mom? My mom, right? I'm like, your mom is staring at you. Oh yeah. So it's like, you can't, like she holds up the mirror. It's like, why don't you open a smaller place or a place in the neighborhood where you happy So eventually I actually moved to Harlem and then I realized right away it like I in no position to open a restaurant here I don't know enough. And people ask me every day, when are you gonna open, when are you gonna open, you should open a restaurant. I was like, I'm not ready. And every, the years went by and I was still working at Aquavit. We got a second three star review. You know, I won a ton of awards. It was like really exciting time. But in my head, I was like, one day, I kind of worked myself out of my funk And it was busy. I launched Aquavit Cookbook. And it was, you know, the world was happening. But I knew. I knew that I was, I didn't know what year I would be leaving. But it's funny, then when the financial downturn in 2008 happened, I knew, like, at that point, Håkon and I built the business. We had a restaurant in Japan. We had Aquavit in Japan. We had Aquavit in Stockholm. We had AQ Cafes. We built up a big business that had a lot of value. But you know when there's no money in the value anymore, as scary as that is, I'm like, that's actually an opportunity. I'm out. And that downturn really became an opportunity in a way. For you to move on to the next thing. To move on to the next. You know like Baltazar, right? Yeah. On a Sunday. I don't know the address to Baltazar. And I said, I want to build a place where no one knows the address. It's just a landmark where you kind of tell whether it's Uber or train, however you get there. see you at Rooster like if you and I would have brunch at Balthazar it's like it's okay if I'm half an hour later because you're not alone and that's really the ethos of that I know but you know a lot of people look at a place like Balthazar and they're like I want to open a restaurant like Balthazar I'm like good luck you know what I'm saying but I mean you've been able to you have that uptown with Rooster I thought a lot about what can I do as the leading black chef for other chefs of color right yeah do you feel pressure there yeah but it's like it's not about just the pressure. It's like you got to do something with it. There's got to be something there behind that wall for me. Otherwise, you know, I also come on a lot of privilege. Like, first of all, I'm an immigrant to this country, not a refugee. If I were to come from Ethiopia, maybe I wouldn't even come in. I come from Sweden, so I'm extremely privileged. Yet, all the civil rights changes and laws, I'm a benefiter of. I'm very aware that a lot of African Americans couldn't get a loan, but as a Swedish citizen, I could get a bank loan. So for me, I can't really walk this walk unless I'm aware of my privileges, right? Okay. No, but I think about it. You asked me, that's why I think about it. Okay, but that's incredibly thoughtful of you. It really is, because not everybody would think that way. But now you're here. Yeah. You're successful. Yeah. And there are so many people that look up to you who are looking to get their life right. And so how do you handle all of that? First of all, I think there are like working with CCAP, Careers for Culinary Arts, have really grounded me. And I've now done it for 25 years. And I've met so many amazing kids. They're now restaurant owners. They're master sums. They're doing their thing. So that taught me a lot. being in Harlem, seeing how some people have been incarcerated, but through culinary, through our restaurants, they've been actually get their life back on track. So real life experiences. For me, it was important to have an open kitchen. So there's a real link between the guest and the experience. So when Hav came about, I'm like, okay, so I feel good about... What does it mean? What's Havimar? hub is hub is a swedish word and it means ocean mar is the opium word and it means honey so this sweet oh really yeah yeah it's in italian exactly i wanted that like ocean on ocean okay and i'm okay if people think that because that's fun yeah but i wanted that one of one word that you actually have to google and still you can't i'm like what does that mean right because it's that you're in chelsea we're going to take you on an art journey right or food journey are you an art collector do like I am absolutely absolutely one of the first things I started to do was when I came to New York also because my friends were artists and we were broke at the same time but so so with hub I felt like you know what let's when I was at those places that George Blonde and so on the only thing I never saw was women and people of color and I was like you're not in that position where you can you now in a position of power so when you before you open this restaurant let's focus on women and leadership, right? So all key positions, leadership position, GM, chef, head bar, are all held by women. Love it. And not just, you've worked with, I've worked with so many amazing chefs that are women that work for you. Yeah. And why should they stop at sous chef or CDC? No, go and run the whole thing. Marcus, you and I learned a long time ago, women really rule the world. Yes. We're just hanging out here. Yeah, we're hanging out. I mean, I have 15 restaurants. Nine of them are led by women, both in GM and executive chef position, which is, you know, our biggest restaurant is in Bahamas. Right. All led by women, local women. Right. And so I'd like to be in the leading position, just like you are, you have to be led by curiosity and make paths for others, right? When did the Ethiopia project start? We've been open for two years, and it's been one of the most amazing rides of my life. As an adopted person, you almost learn about yourself in reverse. So the most basic things about your mom or your brother or sister or whatever, you know. You know the color of their eyes. You know their laugh. You know what makes them tick. When you're adopted, these basic things, you don't know. and then when you go to a country and it's happening now when I bring my son he's like I am Ethiopian but I don't speak the language your son is the most beautiful child in the world thank you so it's like all these questions are opening up so I was like well I know I don't learn the language but I know food so my language is food so I will open a restaurant here because that's our way to communicate right so when I knew I couldn't just open the restaurant I have to be a school with it as well. So there's only so many kids can work in a restaurant. And so it's been part of that package. That's amazing. And it's given me so much. Oh, my God. That's so great that you did that. I mean, seriously. So it keeps me really on my toes, but also remembers my why. And this gift that I've been given, I had to work for, of course, I can now share it. And that was kept me going at Harlem for a long time That also what gets me to Africa Actually when Tony Bourdain and I went to Ethiopia together of course I brought every trip I bring pots, pants, shoes, all of that stuff. And my only wish is, can I go out and run with the kids, right? And they could be 5 to like 15, 20, it doesn't matter, right? And first of all, all the kids came barefoot. I was like, I gave you guys shoes. I was like, no, those are going out shoes. We're not running with these shoes. And the road is not like the road down here, right? So we start to run. And like, they just take off. And they just look at me and like, are you coming, uncle? Are you coming? And I was like, I'm fine. I mean, so the fact that you have, you know, that kind of influence in a place like that. I mean, you have, like, you make wonderful food. You open great restaurants. You hire people. And you give them careers. but like you're inspiring people in a way that very few people get to do and that's why I said to you like do you feel the pressure of this all you know I actually think about it so just to say to you no I don't yeah because it's not true I think about it yeah a lot and I also make talk a lot about you know that joy you get from seeing like for example like my young mentee of mine a young chef that is doing amazing now, Tristan, he just won Top Chef, right? We were 10 years together in the kitchen, and every year it's like, I should go on Top Chef. I said, you're not ready. I'm not sending you until you're ready. And he applied three years, didn't get in. And the year he went, I knew, I can't guarantee he would win, but I knew he would go to the final, have a shot, right? And to see him actually go all the way. And we've been very sort of sparse when we say sending somebody to competitions. Like, Adrian worked in my kitchen. She got to the final. It's that discipline on your next. And seeing that kid, that chef, executing on their vision, it makes me as happy as anything. Well, you're a good mentor for that because I had you on Triple Threat last season. And you were possessed, Marcus. like I've known you for like decades I've never seen I've never seen this Marcus Samuelson before in my life and you willed yourself to beat those guys I mean you wanted it so badly but it was amazing I've been lucky enough to do a lot of cooking competition and won a lot of the top chef and you know whatever chopped all that stuff the triple threat is the hardest thing I've ever done It's very hard. Because no matter what you think, of course, the three of them, whoever the three are, they're incredible. But they're also in that competing room. Oh, yeah. You can't come and think about you in the restaurant anymore. That's their house, too. That's their house. Yeah. So I thought about it. I was like, all right, I think the last course I pulled out Gooey Duck. Because I was like. Got to do something. I'm like, Michael knows about Gooey Duck. Brooke knows about Gooey Duck. but maybe she hasn't cooked it that much. And Tiffany, I was like, nah, maybe not, right? So that was my only strategy. The thrill in the moment of being there, but still you gotta be focused on your thing. It's like the most fun you can have and you're really living. And that's one thing I always tell chefs, especially chefs that cook for a while, I said, no, I don't wanna do it. I said, when you cook in a competition, you're truly living in a way. Like when you do Beat Bobby Flay, regardless how it goes, you are. I'm in it. You're in it, and that adrenaline feel is what we need as chefs, especially we have cooked longer because it's not that often you get that. For me, it's the highest privilege. I don't even think about, and then obviously I've been an athlete all my life, so that competing side, let's go. Yeah. If somebody has never experienced the Marcus Samuelson experience, and they wanted to experience three things, What three things would you tell them? Let me cook for you. Okay. And in that food journey, I think by looking at me, you're going to be surprised how much Japan is in the core underneath all of that. Right? Those years and the time I went back and forth between Asia really impacted me. Right? It's like looking at you and like why would he be so into flavors that come from South America? So that's why never look at a chef and think you know her or him. Because you don't. You just don't. The fact that I've been in business for 30 years in New York City, it's the highest reward for me. You know, like, that's not going to show up in the frame thing. But for me, it's everything. Sure. Because New York has changed so much. Oh, yes. And it continues to. It continues to. And so I think that's something that we share. We share that curiosity. What's that guy doing, you know? we don't care if that cook doesn't have a plaque or none of that dish was whatever this kid is doing and i think i always said to myself the minute that curiosity is gone yeah i'm gonna quit got it people can find you on social media obviously right yeah i mean this is a good this is a you know marcus cooks and i'm excited about this year i'm right uh i'm starting a sauce line you know i'm very excited about that okay it's not it's like the red sauce space is so crowded So I'm going to go everything but red sauce. If you want to cook a curry at home, you can't buy 15 ingredients. Great flavorful food. That's the space that we're going to go for and we feel really good about it. And I'm excited. I'm actually starting this year a residence program where two young chefs can apply. And they're going to be all expenses paid for by us. And they're going to be able to go upstate and live with artists and reflect. When I came up in the 90s, my friends were not necessarily chefs. They were actually artists. And when we went to stages, they went to residences. Sure. And I was like, this is exactly what we meet as chefs. So for me, it was always a dream to build a residence program. So I partnered with an amazing artist in Deniston Hills, which is in Catskills. And people can apply, and they're going to get two weeks paid for, and they can just reflect on their career. That's fantastic. Those things gives me a lot of joy. I like that. Listen, you've made your mark on not just the restaurant industry, but just the world. I mean, it's amazing. So continue your success. Thank you, man. That was great. That was awesome. Wonderful conversation. If you really like what you're hearing here, please hit the subscribe button. Let us know that you want us to keep doing this. We're having the best time. Stay tuned for next week's podcast. Bobby on the Beat. We'll be right back.
