American Fiction Ronald Young, Jr.

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human. No gloss, no filter. Just stories. Spoken without fear. A person who is not generous cannot be an artist. The world will be at peace only when it is ruled by poets and philosophers. Listen to my weekly podcast, the Pooja Bhachon on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Come for the honesty, stay for the fire. Welcome to the neighborhood, a new community where everyone keeps an eye out for each other. Obviously, my instant coffee's not good enough for you. I just want to make friends. In this neighborhood, it's lawnmowers at dawn, as six real households accolade out for a quarter of a million pounds in this street-sized family feud. 250 grand, we are willing to do whatever it takes. Scale scale is destined for greatness. Join me, Graham Norton, as I bring the drama to your doorstep in a new show like no other. The neighborhood starts Friday, 24th of April, on ITV1 and ITVX. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. I was thinking that we should change the name of the podcast to... Fuck? Wait, that's so pertinent. That's so pertinent. The fucktulcast? The fucktulcast? I mean, I think there's certain episodes that have sort of devolved into the fucktulcast over the years. True. Why not just commit? Anyway, that was the brilliant idea I had for the intro of this episode. Welcome to the fucktulcast. I'm into it. Or sorry, welcome to fuck. Welcome to the fucktulcast. Yeah, I was going to do a play on the ending of the movie and keep making us retake it over and over and over and then have it escalate. Oh, sure, sure, sure. This is why we should really circle up with our intros. Look, this is the fucktulcast. My name is Jamie Laftis. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. And Jamie, what's that? Well, the Bechtel test is a media metric created by friend of the show, Alison Bechtel. It was originally appeared as a joke in her comic collection, Dikes to Watch Out For, as a commentary on how there were never romantic relationships between women in movies, but has since been adapted to a more mainstream metric. There's many versions of this test. The one we use requires that there are two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for a meaningful exchange of dialogue and spoiler alert. That doesn't happen many times in this movie, but there's one exchange in particular that I find very delightful. There's a great Bechtel. I think I know which one you're talking about. There's a great Bechtel test pass in the movie we are covering today, which is 2023's American fiction. I feel like, I don't know, over the years, I think that we don't cover a ton of recent movies anymore, but once we get over the past the two year mark, it's time. It's fair game. Here we are, directed by Cora Jefferson in 2023, adapted from the novel Erasure by Percival Everett, and we have a wonderful returning guest to talk about it with us. We certainly do. He's an audio producer, host of the podcasts, Wait for It and Leaving the Theater, and you remember him from our episode on Hitch. It's Ronald Young Jr. Welcome back. Hello, hello. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be here for this one. I am going to roast white folks a lot over the course of the next amount of time. I hope everyone is ready for that. Yeah. Feeling great, feeling great. And I also love when we have a guest come back for the second time with an extremely different movie. Like, it's just... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not a romantic comedy. This is not a romantic comedy. And there's not a single moment of Kevin James. There's not a single hitch in American fiction. Yeah, no, we're so thrilled to have you back. Glad to be here. I was excited. I had such a good time in our first conversation. It was one of those things where when it was over, I was like, hey, I'll talk about anything y'all want to talk about. Like, one, I love talking about movies, and I love the way that y'all talk about movies. So I'm glad that you let me back in here. And I hope there's a third time to Pentagon how this time goes. Oh, we could find a weird third one. We'll schedule it right now. Yeah. Done, done. All right, we're gonna do Donnie Darko. See you next week. There's... We haven't done Donnie Darko yet. I feel like it would have happened by now. But I've always wanted to do like a Patreon theme of like Harvey and Donnie Darko back to back. Just imaginary rabbit. Oh. Or something. Interesting. I was like, wait, what's Harvey again? I don't know why I saw it a lot when I was a kid. Anyways, anyways. Yes, we are here to talk about American fiction. Ronald, what is your history with this movie? I saw it when it came out. I was unfamiliar with Core Jefferson's work. This was my window into it. Huge fan of Jeffrey Wright. So I saw the preview and the premise of the preview was what got me into the movie theater seat. And sitting down and watching it, I realized it's so much more than the premise. And watching it the second time to get ready for this episode, I realized that there's... When I realized that the premise is kind of not the whole purpose of the film, it made me lean in for the parts of the movie that I really, really enjoy, which is more of the commentary about being a black creative by a black creative, which I just, I enjoy it. I'm so ready to talk about it. Mm-hmm. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie? I guess similar for a recent movie. I saw it. I saw it. And I really enjoyed it when it came out. I mean, yeah, I also, this was like my introduction to... I think I've read Core, because Core Jefferson started as a journalist and then worked in TV and then worked, and then became a director. And I think I've read him on like... Oh, he was on Gawker 1.0. Okay, I'm looking at his Wikipedia page. So I think I've read him in college. He has a kind of incredible TV resume. He wrote on Season of Succession, The Good Place, Station 11, Watchmen. So I had experienced his work without realizing it was his work and then saw this. And then this movie also got me into Percival Everett as a writer. So I went and read this book, Erasure, and a couple of his other books. He wrote James last year. And I also randomly read one of his books from 2009. I am not Sidney Poitier. And he's just like an amazing writer. And this is a very fascinating adaptation of a book that I think, Erasure, like it would be a really difficult book to like straight ahead adapt. And I think Core Jefferson did a really awesome job of sort of like honing in, especially on more of like the family stuff that sort of populates the story. And he was excited to talk about it. Caitlin, what's your history with American fiction? I also saw it when it came out. It was one of my favorite movies of that year. It was the movie that I was hoping would win best picture that year, because it was nominated. Did not win best picture, but I think it won for a best adapted screenplay, if I'm remembering. It did, yeah. And he gave an incredible speech, incredible speech about financing films, which I thought was fantastic. Yeah, oh right, yes. And also this is how I learned that Core Jefferson is hot. He's so hot. Yes, people are talking about this. My people, do you mean Caitlin and Jamie are talking about this? I'm just like, it's come up, it's come up. I'm just finished. And that's kind of the most important takeaway from the film that Core Jefferson is hot. I think it is important that hot people are winning Oscars. I mean actors, but like, but hot writers. Yeah, it's important. Let writers be hot. I've been seeing it for years. Yeah, but they won't let us. That's why we look like this. I actually have to dial down my hotness in order to actually try to become a successful writer. To be taken seriously. To be taken seriously, you have to look like a shit. Yeah, a little fish oven. So I tell myself on bad days, I'm like, people are going to really respect you today. Exactly. You will not distract. No, but in all seriousness, I loved this movie. I thought it was so funny and I cannot wait to talk about it. It's such a rich text. And I guess let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. Yeah, let's do it. No gloss, no filter. Just stories, spoken without fear. Addiction is a disease and it should be looked upon as any other disease. How did you cope with a reckless father like me? 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From the personalised to the practical, we've got you covered with millions of active listings to choose from. Birthdays don't celebrate themselves. Shop at Etsy.com and discover your perfect find today. And we're back. OK, here's the recap. We meet Thelonious Ellison, who goes by monk in reference to Thelonious Monk, played by Geoffrey Wright. He's a literature professor who is suspended from the Pooja. He's also a published author and has written several novels. Which I think, I don't know if this is like from the book or not, but whenever you catch one of his fake book titles, like his fake pretentious book titles, they're really great. I think the one you see the most is the Haas Conundrum and you're like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The Haas Conundrum and you're like, what the hell is that? And it's like huge. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I was going to say, I wanted to note that the suspension at the college, what I wanted to point out was how frustrating that scene was for me to watch. But then on top of that, it was presented in a way that felt real world frustrating, which is how I know it was well done. Because I said that is exactly how that conversation would go and has gone in a lot of ways. But it made sense that this would be the man that is who does not believe in race that much, but is also writing very pretentious tomes called the, what did you say, the Haas Conundrum? The Haas Conundrum. It looks like it's 700 pages and you're like, yeah, this, he's kind of awesome, but he's also, we know this guy. Yeah. That scene was 100%. That scene was great, especially like how it is very clear that one of the other writers in the room is extremely jealous of him. Yes. Yeah. The airport swipe, you're like, oh, it's just so good. That's the, I think that's the same actor who's in, he's in like the elevator scene in speed. Whoa. And he's the one who like keeps pushing the button. I think he might also be in, oh God. It sounds like you know, it sounds like you know, he's in a lot of things. He's in a lot of things. I think he's also been in a few like David Lynch movies. Anyway, a quick appearance by him. So anyway, Monk, he's a published author. He has also written a recent novel that he's having a hard time selling. His agent, Arthur, played by John Ortiz tells him that publishers are looking for books by black authors that are about very stereotypical black American experiences like tragedy porn kind of stuff. And they find that Monk's writing is too smart, sophisticated, academic, that kind of stuff. Monk then goes to Boston for a book. This is a great New England piece of cinema. Yes. The Dunkin Donuts representation. We see it almost right away. It's my first note. I was like authenticity, authenticity. And you know that coffee is trash. It's so bad, but he needs it. He needs it. Well, because the book, I didn't, I have not read the book that this is adapted from, but I read the wikipedia scholarly journal synopsis DC. Yeah. Oh, that would have been interesting. Yeah. I guess I don't know why it was changed yet because Corey Jefferson is from Tucson, which does come up with like via the sort of. Cliffs lives. Yeah. I don't know why they chose Boston. I forgot that was my other connection to this movie is the, some of the scenes were shot in the like two towns over from my mom. And so her and all her friends were doing slow drives to see if they could catch a look at Jeffrey Wright. They're all ready for Jeffrey Wright. They were not successful. Damn. I'm so sorry to hear that. So monk goes to Boston for this book festival to be on a panel with other authors. Also at this festival is Centara Golden played by Issa Ray, who has written a book called Weas Lives in the Ghetto that seems to be about the stereotypical black characters that these publishers want. Monk goes to an event where she reads a passage from her book and he is rolling his eyes. Monk then visits his family who lives in the Boston area. We meet his sister, Lisa, played by Tracy Ellis Ross. My favorite character and I, the only, one of the only things I don't like about this movie is how quickly and melodramatically she exits the movie. I'm just like, she's such a good character. And I feel like even if she had to die to advance the protagonist narrative, I, I didn't like the like piano music, heart attack. I was like, come on, you got Tracy Ellis Ross. Don't do this to her. I will also say, I think that I had the same issue because she brought it for me. I love Tracy Ellis Ross. I've loved her since, uh, since, uh, girlfriends. But what bothers me is that she shows up here and she brings so much to the film and I'm settling in ready for a whole performance from her. And the only thing that I felt okay about is that when she dies is the handoff from her to Sterling K. Brown in terms of the relationship between Cliff and monk was done so well on the beach in that scene with them cussing out their neighbor, Phillip. He was done. That's the only part that might, that makes it okay that she's gone was watching them team up to be like, F you, Phillip, get out of here. We hate you. And I'm like, oh, okay. So these are real brothers. They like really, they really understand each other. But that was the only thing I agree with you. I, I hated that she was gone from the movie. Well, I guess that was like a, not a huge change from the book, but the change that was made was kind of interesting. Um, I don't know. It's so, I love adaptation talk. We'll get to it. But yeah, I was like, she, she's so compelling and she's so clearly embodied like an eldest daughter. Yes. And then in that same scene where you're like, whoa, this is so cool. And then she dies right. And she drops dead right in front of you. And you're like, this is a nasty piece of work. Yes. I mean, there's, there's many women, there's many like well written women in this story. That's not even the issue. I just, she was immediately my favorite character. And then in the same scene, she dies. Oh my God. Like her row versus Wade joke. The fact that she wrote her own eulogy. Yes. At her funeral. And it's about how she wanted to fuck Idris Elba and Russell Crowe. Like so funny. The heaving thrusts of a sweaty Idris Elba. Yeah. Such a funny character. I was like, come on, couldn't she have lived like 20 more minutes? Come on. I know. Anyways. Yeah. Um, anyway, we meet Lisa. She's a doctor who has recently gotten divorced. We meet Monk's mother Agnes, played by Leslie. Is it you gams? Oogams. She seems like she might be showing signs of dementia. We also meet their housekeeper Lorraine, played by Myra Lucretia Taylor. Monk and Lisa, we get a better sense of their relationship. They talk about various family dynamics, some past family drama, including how their father was very closed off. And we'll learn that Monk tends to sort of follow in those footsteps. They also try to figure out what to do about their mother's health. That's another thing I really appreciate about this movie is how, like without bonking you over the head with it, it feels like a really like well written example of how like every kid has a different set of parents and like all of the sibling alliances. And I don't know, like I whatever it's like everyone recognizes their version of that. But how both of his siblings are like rolling their eyes are like, oh, you thought our dad was faithful? What the hell are you talking about? Oh, it's probably because he was your fate. Like you were his favorite. Yeah. I just, yeah, I was like, oh, oh, I feel seen and I don't like it. There was a line that he said to, he said, enemies see everything and friends only see what they want or something. A lot of those lines. That's what says to Monk at that point. And I thought it was very, very well. There's several good lines in here and I'll highlight them as we get through them. But this was starting there. I'm just like, man, you are some bars in here, Mr. Jefferson. Sterling K. Brown is so good in this movie. I forget if he was nominated for a supporting actor, but if he wasn't, he should have been. He's so good in this. I don't think he was. I don't know, though. I know he's great in it. Oh, he was nominated. Yes. Sterling K. Brown was nominated for an Academy Award. He did not win. Well, I don't like that. So they're talking about what to do about their mother's health. They think maybe they should hire a nurse, but that would be expensive. They would have to sell their beach house. And then Lisa suddenly suffers a heart attack and dies. Can I say how she dies in the book? Because it does feel, I think it does, because this is one of the plot points in the movie that feels so jarring. And even people who love this movie are like, why did that happen? In the book, she works at a women's clinic, which I forget if she works at a more general hospital in the movie. It's a clinic. Yeah, it's like a family planning clinic. So in the in the book, which is published in 2001, she is killed when an anti-abortion person comes in with a gun and she's shot at work. So it is like an equally sudden death, but it is a more shocking. Like she's murdered. It's not a freak. Like, oh, my gosh, I had a heart attack because I'm stressed. Question mark, which is like, I don't know. I it's I'm excited to talk about adaptation because I think it just works. I don't know. I because I understand that that would like really kind of bring this movie to a grinding halt very, very early on because her death is sudden no matter what. So that is that is like a pretty big change, even though it doesn't really affect the later events of the movie. It's a pretty big change. I think hearing that definitely would have put more emphasis on her death in a way that was not necessary for the movie to move forward. But I would also argue that I don't think I think except for the ways in which that she was holding the family together and the way that the family then splits apart with her death is probably the most important part about it. So you had to remove that that like a pin from the wheel, if you will, in order for things to kind of go in the direction that they're going. But if it would have been like a more dramatic because if you think about it, even the way that she died, like when we watch her feet on the gurney and he's looking through the hospital window is already traumatic enough. I don't know what it would have been like if it had been more like grizzly and political in that way. You know, well, I wonder. And this is pure speculation from my part, but I wonder if Corid Jefferson just didn't want to show violence against a black woman on screen. Also that. Yeah. Right. And the very early parts of the movie. Yeah. Mm hmm. Because as various characters comment on throughout the movie, like these heavily stereotyped portrayals of black characters in movies and books, experiencing pain and suffering and violence and being shot by the police. And things like that. So and even though that does happen at the end of the movie, it's monks imagination of what's happening. So it's not real. So you don't actually see real violence right against black people on screen. So that's my guess as to why Corid Jefferson made that change. But I don't know. Yeah, I wasn't able to find comments on like specific changes made. But I just thought it was interesting because it was like, I don't know, personal ever writes like really intensely political book or like in this case wrote a very intensely political book. And I also like, I don't know. It's I would be so interested to hear like Corid Jefferson's thoughts on like, well, you know, is that a studio note? Is that his choice? Like I just wonder what the process is when you're adapting a novel to the screen of like, well, if you want X amount of budget, we need you to change this, this and this, which is, you know, happens. I don't know. Agreed. So hard to say. But RIP, Lisa, you were the best character. I think yes. So the family holds a small funeral for her, which is on the beach near the family beach house. So we're kind of like going back and forth between this beach house amongst mother's house. Also, I think he goes back to LA sometimes. I was losing track of like where people were in space and time. But anyway, there's a funeral. And this is when we meet Monk and Lisa's brother, Cliff, played by Sterling K. Brown. He and Monk have mostly lost touch, but they start to reconnect throughout the movie. Cliff is also recently divorced from his wife, and he has come out as gay. Then Monk meets a neighbor woman, Coraline, played by Erica Alexander. Of Living Single. So yeah, I just want to point out that we have three very prominent Black sitcom or Black lead, I'd say female lead shows in here. We have Issa Rae of Insecure. We have Tracy Ellis Ross of Girlfriends, and we have Erica Alexander of Living Single. Oh, my God, if we could have gotten them in one scene, do you not understand that's a holy trinity situation? Yes. Yeah. Flying colors, it would have passed the Bechtel test if they could have just had a conversation about any literally anything else. And it would have just been such a delight. Yeah, the women are pretty cordoned off from from sequence to sequence. And you know, we could talk about that, but. But I didn't. Yeah, I didn't even make that connection, but there is like a sitcom, holy trinity situation going on here. Yeah, because you have Living Single. That was first it predated friends. Then you have girlfriends that comes later, which is is referenced in Insecure. That would come even later. Gosh, I was in Hog Heaven. Like, how did you get all of them in one movie? This is amazing. Next time, let's get them in a scene. Yeah, let's get them together. Come on. Seriously. OK, so we meet Coraline. She and Monk start chatting. She invites him inside for some wine. And then a little bit later, she asks Monk out on a date. Then Monk takes his mother to a doctor appointment. She is diagnosed with Alzheimer's, which means that she will likely need round the clock care. And with with Lisa's passing and Cliff being broke from his divorce, it's sort of up to Monk to kind of bear this financial burden, but he also doesn't really have the money for that. So he decides to sit down and start writing a book called My Pathology under the pseudonym Stag R. Lee. And it is the very stereotypical narrative about black people that these publishers are like gobbling up. So, you know, there's deadbeat dads, guns, crack. And as he writes this book, two characters come to life. One of them is played by Keith David. And there's this really fun scene where like Monk is kind of talking to them and sort of like negotiating some of the dialogue that they would say and some of the descriptions. It's very, very funny. And in the in Erasure, like he writes the whole book, like my pathology just appears in the middle of Erasure. And it is like, well, really, really, really intense. And I think like, and this isn't a criticism of the movie because it's like, you how would you do that? And also, would you really want to? I think that he like adapts it really, really well. But the like amount of horrific stuff that happens in the book, within a book that is then responded to really positively by like the white literary crowd is like it is pretty horrific. There are so I don't want to get too far ahead of the recap, but I just want to put out that right after the scene where he is talking to his characters from the book, he is sitting on the bed playing on his phone. And it's just before he talks to his agent, but he's sitting on there playing on his phone and the TV shows, it says Black Stories Month. And it then shows a preview of the stories that month. And these were actual movies. And they showed scenes from Boys in the Hood, 12 years of slave, New Jack City and Precious. And I wrote Yikes seeing all of them as clips together is actually kind of wild because they picked them in a certain way that shows like, you know, the brother getting shot in Boys in the Hood, Precious running with her baby, 12 years of slave running from the slave masters, all of that together. And it's like Black Stories Month, which is just such a good little punctuation on what the story that Cor. Jefferson is telling here. It was just like just a little bit of an Easter egg. I really enjoyed. Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what the scene you're talking about. And the one clip that I recognized the most was from Precious. Yeah. Because I was like, I was like, wait, is that from Precious? Which is the movie that I kept thinking of over and over again when characters would reference Black Tragedy porn movies. Yes. And like white audiences response to that being like, oh my God, it's the most important film of a generation. And Oscars, Oscars, Oscars. It's also what the book is kind of written in conversation with originally because the, the like push, but wait, Precious based on the novel. Push by Sapphire. That was just like printed on my brain. But the novel by Sapphire, which was called Push came out in 1996 and I think was like part of what inspired Percival Everett to write this in the first place was like, like not taking issue with the novel's existence, but with its embracing. Like I think that that's it seems like that's a lot of where the character Satara comes from is Satara Sapphire, you know, you know. Yeah, I think it was an amalgamation, but yes, I think that because I was thinking as soon as you said Precious, I immediately thought about for color girls. And I'm just thinking about there's just like a list of these kind of very traumatic works that have come from multiple authors that have all of a sudden been celebrated in a way that never made me quite feel that good. It's I remember there's a there's a there was a film that came out a few years ago. I completely forgot the name of it, but it was about a black guy getting shot by the cops. And I remember several white folks was like, have you seen this film to be? And I was just like, no, but I've seen the countless amount of videos of black people being shot by the cops. So I certainly don't need a dramatization of it. I don't think that's an important film for me to see. So I hope you enjoy it, though. And I hope that it pushes you forward in your politics or whatever. You're talking about was it called The Hate You Give? Yes, The Hate You Give. Yes. Thank you. That's exactly what it was. And that you knew what I was talking about. OK, that's amazing. Yes. But I remember everyone's like, have you seen The Hate You Give? And I'm like, no, never will. Won't read the book. I get it. I don't need to see a play about like the famous line from Euphoria. Is this play about us? Like, I don't need to. I don't need to actually see it. Right. Yes. OK, so Monk finishes the book. My pathology and sends it to his agent, Arthur, to send out to publishers not because Monk wants to sell the book, more to show the publishers how ridiculous and racist they're being with their expectations of black writers. But a publisher loves the book and wants to buy it and offers Monk a huge advance. Before you proceed, can I say one thing? Yeah. So he's talking to his agent and his agent says that his agent is resistant to him about this. He says, you shouldn't do this. I don't think this is a good idea. Monk is trying to push ahead. Monk says something like, you know, I want to show them. I want to rub their faces in it. Is agent says back to him, one of the hardest hitting lines I've ever heard about white folks. He says, white people think that they want the truth, but they don't. They just want to be absolved. And I said, this is canon. They need to put it everywhere. They need to put it on billboards. This is like the to me, it's praxis. You could teach college courses just about this because it's the hardest thing. And matter of fact, you could fill in this with any sort of marginalized spectrum. If you go to one side of it, you could replace white people with a lot of things. You say men think they want the truth. They don't, but they just want to be absolved. There's so many ways that this fits because everyone thinks that they are the exception to the rule. They never assume that they are also part of the problem. And they want to be told they want to read works like this and be told that they're not part of the problem, that they're not the mad gentrifier, that they want to be told that over and over again, that they're the right man. You know what I mean? So I read that and I was like, oh my God, this is. And I still don't understand how that line is not like laminated and put in like schools and like in God, we trust. No, just that there's still time. There's still time. Love you. You're sorry. I mean, and I feel like it's that's in conversation with like why are so many stories about marginalized people taking place in the distant past? I think that that is like it is kind of this like anesthetizing effect of like, well, people used to be so horrible, but you're fine. You're great. Or like we talk about all the time on the show, like the like a patriarchy, the guy kind of character, which is like showing a man who's the worst man. So if you're a man watching it, you're not as bad as that guy. So you're probably fine. And you know, it's like it's it's like we see you. We see what you're doing. And Cord Jefferson does too. Yeah, I think this movie does a really good job of showing, you know, well meaning, but ultimately clueless white people who even know if they're well meaning, honestly. I think like some of them capitalists for sure. Capitalizing on him. The publishers, I guess what it is is this movie shows does a good job of showing the difference between white people caring about equity and black liberation and white people not wanting to seem racist. Right. All the white people we see in this movie fall in the latter category. Yes. And they're all getting a cut. Yes. Like I don't think like there no one is doing this out of the goodness of their heart. They're like opportunistic and like they're like, oh, I can appear to be not racist and make 10 percent of like, you know, it's just it's ugly. It's I think it's brilliantly nuanced in this film because later in the film, there there is a line about nuance that comes up and there is a line about listening to black voices that comes up, which we'll get to. But this film just stays firmly in the conversation of saying, hey, there's this thing that we're doing with race that is becoming as problematic as all of the original problems that you think that we resolved about race. And I feel like for this movie to say this in 2023 is kind of all of these kind of parallel narratives that happen during what we assume to be progress, especially in the United States. And the people are writing and saying, hey, this other thing is happening. And everyone's like, oh, we're not really worried about that so much. So I really appreciate when a movie like this or any creative work just plainly states it in this way, even though it doesn't always necessarily get heard. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. So Monk is offered this huge advance for this book. He doesn't want to sell it because he knows that it's trash. But his mother's medical bills are piling up. So he takes a call with a publisher. And at the encouragement of his agent, Arthur, he puts on this different persona to make him seem more like hood to match the vibe of the book. The publisher doesn't know that Stagg R. Lee is Thelonious Ellison. And then Arthur adds the detail that Stagg can't use his real name because he's a wanted fugitive from the law. Meanwhile, Monk has started seeing Coraline. He invites her over for dinner to meet his mom. This is my favorite Bechtel test passing moment. I'm not sure if this is the one that you were talking about, Jamie. The same one, yeah. Where Monk's mother Agnes says, I'm so glad you're not white. Yeah. And Coraline says, me too. You too. And you're just like, wow, that is a very powerful exchange. Because we learned a little bit later that other women that Monk has dated were white and his family had some thoughts about those women. Yeah. So that line gets contextualized a little bit more, but it's still so funny. It's also like meta commentary on like the type of black person that Thelonious Ellison is without being super overt. In those conversations, we're learning more about him because we only see him with a black woman in this film. We don't see him with any other race of women, which is just funny to hear other folks talk about it because it just it tells us who he was or how he's been perceived in the past was just another layer. Because this is also a black man that says, I don't even really believe in race, which immediately I'm like, I know who you are. I know you are and I hate you, but I know who you are. You're very smart, but I hate your guts. Yeah. He's the author of the Haas conundrum. Correct. Yeah. Oh, OK. So one night, Agnes goes missing. They quickly find her walking around on the beach, but it's a sign that she needs constant supervision. So Monk puts her in an assisted living facility. Then Monk gets a call from a guy from something called the Literary Awards saying that they realized their panel of judges is not very diverse and they're trying to fix that. So they want to know if Monk will be one of the judges and he reluctantly agrees and finds out that Centara Golden is one of the other judges. And Monk is like, oh, her. Then Monk has a meeting with this guy Wiley, played by Adam Brody, a Hollywood director who's interested in adapting his book. So Monk has to put on the stag Lee persona again for a meeting with Wiley. And Wiley is super impressed with him. He thinks he's the real deal. So Wiley offers four million. Right. What does that mean? What does that mean? Adam Brody has had a very fun kind of filmography in the cut where he just kind of pops up every once in a while and you're like, all right. He pops up. He usually plays an abhorrent asshole. I'm trying to remember it was he and promising young woman. Like who was he was a piece of shit and something else recently? I think. OK. Nobody wants this. I think that's the. Oh, I haven't seen that. I mean, I believe in the title. I don't want it. I don't want it. I'm not interested. But I do. Yeah, he plays. He's great at playing a piece of shit. It's nice when an actor knows how punchable their own face is. Yes. You know, my question for that, though, was like, do you do you think that I assume that he's aware of the character that he's playing? But then it makes me it goes back to say, do you think that he's like, well, I'm not this guy. Right. And do you think that he has to be in touch with that guy a little bit in order to actually embody that guy? Yeah, there's a part of me that's like, hmm. But I only think that to say he played the role very well. And I just hope that it's not in him. He did. I mean, I that's a really good. I don't know. I was thinking about that on this viewing where it's like most of the white characters we encounter are so highly satirized and so like completely brain unplugged that you do kind of wonder like, how are the actors engaging with the material? And like, and I also like wonder about white audience members seeing this movie and being like, oh, well, I'm not that. So I'm I'm probably fine, you know. Yeah. But also, there are so many white people who are exactly like every single white person we see in this movie. So like, right, it's not even satire. And then for the actors, well, you hear about actors who often play villains or assholes, and then they turn out to be a monstrous person themselves. And you're like, oh, yeah, you weren't really even acting. Then you were just kind of being yourself. But then you are. Right. Well, it's like it's like Jeremy Irons. It's like that. But then there are also actors who usually play a villain. But by all accounts, they're like the nicest person you've ever met. And it's just that they're a really good actor. For example, Alfred Molina often plays a villain. Molina. And he's a friend to all, including us. He's our best friend. So I call him Al. Al. Yeah. Freddie, Freddie Molina. I love him so much, Freddie. Freddie Molina, our beloved. Yeah. Anyway, so so who knows, Adam Brody. We don't know if he's nice or not in real life. But anyway, he is so impressed with Stag Leigh and thinks he's so authentic and he offers four million dollars for the movie rights. Then Monk and Arthur talk to the publishers again about selling the book and like marketing it. And Monk is like, I can't believe they like this shit. This is so absurd. And so to fuck with them, he says that he wants to change the title of the book to simply the word fuck. And the publishers are like, yeah, OK, that's a great idea. That's that's so brave. Let's do it. Yeah, absolutely. So the book fuck is published and debuts at number one on the New York Times bestseller list. Monk discovers that Coraline has a copy of it and that she has read it and liked it. And he's like, well, what did you like about it? It's reductive slop because he has not told her that he is Stag Leigh and that he wrote the book. Pretty much no one knows except for his agent. And then they get into an argument and she calls him out for being like pretentious and cold and shut off and for acting like an asshole. And it seems like they break up. Then Monk receives a copy of fuck, which had been submitted to the literary awards, which means that he and the other judges will have to evaluate it. And he's like, God damn it. Meanwhile, the family's housekeeper Lorraine is getting married to this guy named Maynard. They have their wedding by the beach house. Monk walks Lorraine down the aisle. It's very sweet. Also, Monk's brother Cliff is back in town. He's on this like horny bender because this is his first time having gay relationships, so he's making up for his time. Yes, exactly. Quick, quick side note. Can I ask a question? Of course. Of y'all. As soon as I saw the scene with the the judges of the literary award, I knew who Monk was on that on that judging panel. Like we already understand who his character is. We're learning who Sentara is. However, the three white characters are all to me. I felt like excellently picked and portrayed in terms of the spectrum of whiteness and how whiteness would interact on this panel and what it would look like for them to build this panel. And I'm curious for y'all to see these three white people, did any of them any of them stand out to you? They have a white woman and two white men. And I'm curious if were any of you, did they ping your brand at all, seeing these three white folks in particular? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I guess when I was referring to like sometimes well-meaning white people, etc., etc. I had that the white woman in mind for that because, you know, she seems like a pretty typical, like liberal white woman who. And let's be honest, like we've been this white woman before. Absolutely. I think like I think that there is an element to that character specifically, even though it's like broadly drawn. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's like I've there's been notes of me in that before. And it's like I think that's like part of what makes the movie effective. It's like you should be seeing shades of yourself in characters like that. And then like the one of the older white guys, too, was like, I don't even know like how to describe what it is, but it feels very like, oh, like a professor who is like trying to relate with a black student and being overly familiar and the vocabulary is weird. And like and you're just like, whatever this is, it's not working. And yeah, no, I mean, they all felt familiar. And then in the case of the white woman, I was like, oh, no, is this me in 2016? Yeah, yeah, maybe some early Bechtelkast episodes. I don't know. Yeah, I think that is very true. And then there was the the third person, the other white man who seems to be like a libertarian libertarian. Yes, that's exactly what he was. That's exactly what he was. I mean, well, that's the guy who calls Monk and is pretty blunt about like, hey, we're asking you to do this because you're a black writer and like Monk is like, awesome, cool. That feels no, that's a different guy. That's a different guy. Oh, wow, they all blurred together. Also problematic, though. Yeah, yeah, because that guy, those two guys blurred together for me. OK, yeah, no, totally different guy. The guy who like runs the literary awards is the one who calls Monk. And he's the one who's like, we just noticed that our panel of judges has never been diverse. So can you be on it, Monk? And I love his response. He says, I'm honored you'd choose me out of all the black writers you could go to out of fear of being called racist. Right. And Monk is being very facetious in that moment, but the white guy does not pick up on it at all. And he's like, you're very welcome. Well, and I also love how particular to like who we know Monk to be is that what sells him on it is like, well, yeah, we can't pay a lot. And we are like making it clear to you why we're asking you to do it. But you'll get to talk as much shit as you want. And he's like, I'll do it. I'm in the I just want to point out the other part that this movie does well is I just and you probably y'all probably know, like being as the originators of the Bechtelkast podcast, you probably know that there is a movie out there that will show you all the different types of men that if you were to interact with all of them in one day, you would definitely go home and I don't ever want to see a man again in my life. And the thing is each of them individually aren't that bad. But if you had to talk to all of them in one day, you'd be like, no, get them out of here. This movie does that for white folks, because if you go from beginning to end and talk to each one of these individual white people, I'm talking Philip on the beach, the three professors in the beginning of the judges at the end. All if you go through all of you, be like, oh, I will be hanging out with Coraline by the beach and not talking to a white person ever again. I think that's that's very hard to manage that type of like nuance and saying, hey, individually, I love all these folks together. Y'all got to stop. Right. I mean, I just like and I don't know like what the adaptation is there. But just even like looking at Cord Jefferson's career, it's like I would wage her a guess that there's a lot of his own experience in those exchanges because it's like this guy was in the room for succession. You know, like there you have to imagine that you're like and I'm a succession lover, I'm a succession booster. But you have to imagine being a black writer on succession was maybe not the easiest job. One of the whitest shows ever committed to the good place. Then succession in both of them in terms of and I'm saying like you these are both good. I love both of these shows to be clear. I think they're great shows, but to be a black person in the room for either of those, I imagine because then he follows that up with the with Watchman with Watchman, but which is run by Damon Lindelof, which I mean, notoriously, we famously, famously. And so like I just, I don't know. I was like, I want maybe they exist. I didn't have time to listen to a ton of Cord Jefferson interviews, but like I want I want the memoir. Release the. I have a ton of follow up questions for him on this. He most recently wrote on it. The new it series, too. I was like, range, range. Which was supposed to be really good. I didn't watch it. Yeah, me either. Welcome to Dairy or something, which I always get confused with Dairy Girls. I'm like, oh, is it set in that same place? And it's not. Yeah, it's a crossover. I'll watch anything with Bill Skarsgard. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do anything for that man. Scary clouds included. To be clear, it's not a crossover. I just, if this makes the podcast, please. People are hitting the reddit like, wait a second. Wait a minute. Welcome to Dairy Girls. It's called a joke. Okay. Listeners. Okay. So Lorraine and Maynard's wedding happens. Then the five judges for the literary awards gathered to figure out who to like, give the main award to. And they discuss the book, fuck. And the white judges love it. Centara and Monk are like, no, it's bad. And then there's a scene where Monk and Centara talk about her book and like, literature in general. I want to more closely look at this scene during our discussion, because I like wrote out the entire thing and I want to talk all about it. But basically she makes some points that he perhaps hadn't fully considered. And then we see him call his agent and set up another meeting with that Hollywood guy Wiley, because Monk has a new idea, which we will soon find out about. In the meantime, despite Monk and Centara's protests, the three white judges for the literary awards decide to give fuck the first place, like book of the year or whatever award. Can I ask something bizarre and annoying? Sorry. What was that I was trying to remember and I couldn't find it in my notes because my ever note has now been dominated by AI and I can't find shit. What was the name of the husband's book in past lives? And was it also fuck? Oh my gosh. Or was it called? It was like Boner or something. It was called like Pee Pee. Like what was it called? I was not able to figure it out because it only appears in a couple of shots. But I remember that we really appreciated like he's like, it's my debut novel. Boner. It's Boner. It's called Boner. Wow. OK. Wow. I was like, were there two novels named called fuck in 2023? No, there was fuck and Boner. That's beautiful. I celebrate that. Something to note when they when they are having this conversation and this was like kind of like the when I was thinking about the different types of white folks, it says they when they decide that they are going to do it. And this is first of all, genius, the way they set this up. The black folks are sitting on one side of the table. There's two of them. The white folks are sitting on the other. And as they decide that it's that fuck is going to win, when you decide that that's the winner, the woman judge, I forgot her name. She turns to the table and she says, it's not just that it's affecting. I just think that it's essential to listen to black voices right now. And the camera shot just shows the three white people looking at the two black people who just said, we don't want to pick this book. I write Chef's Kiss. Beautiful. That's how you shoot that. It was incredibly frustrating. I don't feel any resolution there. But thanks for at least they put it in a way that if you're white and you saw that scene, you had to be like, oh, no, did I do that? Am I in this picture? Is this movie about me? Yeah, no, I the irony in that moment is, I mean, it's a it's a it's a funny visual joke. And then it's also just like, damn, yeah, this this is how white people are. So yeah, they they despite Centaur and monks protests, the three white judges decide to give fuck the book of the year award. Monk is like, I guess. And he invites Coraline to be his date at the award ceremony. But she does not respond. She has not been replying to his texts. Then we cut to the ceremony. Coraline shows up. Fuck is announced as the winner and Monk goes to the stage and is presumably about to reveal himself as Stag R. Lee. But then we cut to black and we realize that this is part of a screenplay that Monk has written and is showing Wiley. And Wiley is like, well, that can't be the ending. This is unresolved. You know, the character of Monk should say something. It almost this is like obviously very, very different material, but it is kind of giving the end of Greta Gerwig little women, too. Where oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. It's like, wait, how should it end? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why I didn't connect that the first time I saw it. But I was like, oh, wait, that's actually very similar, very similar endings to very different movies. You talk about one guy who was very confused by the ending of Little Women, a movie that I very much enjoyed, but I had to Google eight thick pieces before I was like, wait, what just happened? That was I have to I haven't seen it since it came out. Me have to return. I do remember the think pieces back when you were still publishing things, you know, 2019. It was a simpler time. I miss think pieces. Bring them back. Yeah. We were people. We were getting paid upwards of $50 back. You said you remember we used to publish days. I was going to say you remember when we used to think. Vaguely. It's true. Now we just think and run by ourselves and say, never mind, never mind. Or people have chat, GBT, think for them. And we need to see it. And chat, GBT says, no more thinking, no more thinking, no more. No more. No more. But no, I didn't make that connection at all. But yeah, at the end of Little Women 2019. Yeah. Yeah. It's Sersha Ronan's character. Oh, my gosh. Who does she play? Joe pitching her book to a publisher. And he's being like, no, I don't like that ending. Make it. I think he wants it to be like more like neatly resolved. It's yeah, it's like to justify why the actual ending of Little Women is like, and then Joe got married and she was pretty happy. Right. Where that's like so like you're like, wait, Joe March, who we understand is clearly a queer woman. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. She marries a man. Yeah. Right. Anyways. Anyway, so Wiley is like this ending is no good. So Monk pitches this ending at the awards ceremony where Monk runs out and he goes to Coraline's house to apologize and try to make up with her. And Wiley is like, nah, that makes the whole movie feel too much like a rom-com. That's not what we're going for. So then Monk is like, what about this? At the awards ceremony, Monk, the character goes up to accept the award. But just then the FBI comes in because they've been after Stag Lee since they heard that he was a wanted criminal and they shoot and kill Monk. Not realizing that Stag Lee is not a real person. He's also holding a transparent trophy in his hand that is clearly not a gun. And they say he's got a gun. Which I was like, oh, that's beautiful. Yes, it's a good chord. You did it. You did it. So then we cut back to Wiley and he's like, yes, this idea is perfect. Let's shoot it. And then the movie ends with Monk on a studio lot. They're going to make the movie that he wrote and he like gets in the car with Cliff and makes a joke about Tyler Perry. The end. Cliff has a different haircut, which made me wonder. I didn't know if this was production or storytelling. Is this you lost early, Kay Brown. We had to do a reshoot and he had a different haircut. We were just like, oh, that's fine. Or is this storytelling? Are you telling me that there's other parts of the story that weren't as we knew them? I remember I thought that for a moment and I just put it out of my mind. I was like, maybe it's nothing. I don't know what you all thought. Here's my here's my head cannon because I noticed the different haircut. So he has been making new gay friends and lovers. Yeah. And I feel like one of them is like, let's give you a makeover. Got you. Haircut me. No, that works. Yeah. I guess I was just I wasn't thinking about the haircut. That was a failure on my part. I was just like, wow, yay. I love him. Anyway, well, that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. No gloss. No filter. Just stories. Spoken without fear. Addiction is a disease and it should be looked upon as any other disease. How did you cope with a reckless father like me? Join me, Pooja Bhatt, as I sit down every week with directors, actors, musicians, technicians and beyond. You don't need to work with the biggest people and the biggest sound to have great music. I have gone through the sub-CD Hachakar. Reach the pinnacle. Stung by the snake and I've fallen down again. Yeah. I am not writing actively anymore. And when I see my old work, it kind of saddens me. I'm only as good as the last shot that I gave. Mom's gone, but don't shut the theater. The show must go on. Listen to my weekly podcast, the Pooja Bhatt show on the iHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Come for the honesty. Stay for the fire. And we're back. We're back. I want to pick up where we left off about him talking to the producer. There's a line that Wiley says where he basically says when he's talking about the endings, he says, nuance doesn't put asses in theater seats. And that felt incredibly meta because this is a very nuanced film, a very nuanced film. And I feel like even the way that he ended, I remember at the time that I originally watched it thinking, is this a bit of a cop out? Are you not just going to tell us how this story ends? Or is it a safety move for you to just be like, so I just walked out of the awards, never talked to Coraline again, and now I'm pitching a movie to you. All the problems here are solved. We're driving off into the sunset. But I remember watching it this time and feeling a lot more satisfied, probably because I had nothing to expect. I kind of already knew where it was going. So I had no more expectations of the film. But that line, nuance doesn't put asses in theater seats. I was just like, yeah, that's true. That's production right now in Hollywood. That's like, we can't do the risky nuance thing. Someone has to win or lose at the end. Even though whenever someone does do the risky nuance thing, people go to see it. Which is like the lesson we learned over and over and over and over. But you're just like told repeatedly, people don't want this. And it's like, well, then why do they keep going to see it? Although, I mean, this, like you said, Ronald, this is a nuanced film and it only earned $23 million at the box office on a $10 million budget. So like with an Oscar campaign, the point is kind of being proven. I mean, it got tons of awards recognition and nominations. But a lot of people didn't see it, at least not in theaters. I wonder how wide the release ended up being too. I don't know. I live in Burbank where there's a million AMC. I'm living a very spoiled lifestyle. I can see whatever the hell I want. I saw Peter Huja's day by accident. That's how good things are here. Wait, what? You saw what? Literally, there's, well, it's a Ben Wishaw movie about a historical figure I was not aware of, a queer photographer named Peter Huja. I forget what movie I was trying to see, but I went into the wrong movie theater and then I just randomly saw Peter Huja's day and I was like, wow, what a Burbank. Why did I just imagine you sitting there eating your popcorn being like, man, this slaps. What is this? It was definitely, you know, like when you just like have a Sunday and you're like, I'm just the world's going to happen to me today. Yeah, because I forget what I might. I think I was trying to see Blue Moon and then I still, I feel confident that I was directed to the wrong theater because I've never done this before. And then like 10 minutes in, I was like, I don't think Ethan Hawke is coming. I think this is a different movie, but then I stayed and it was really good. That's great. I went to go see Nickel Boys and theaters and turns out I walked into the wrong theater because suddenly Tofer Grace was on screen and then I realized I was watching that movie. I think it was called Flight Plan or something. Oh, no, it's called Flight Risk. Flight Risk. Yes. Whoa, what a different film. And then I was like, I don't think Tofer Grace is in Nickel Boys. I was like, that is an abrupt shift. Yeah. Mark Wahlberg shows up bald and you're like, what's going on? Yeah. Oh, the Mark Wahlberg bald movie. The Mark Wahlberg movie. I got like three minutes into it. I was like, I don't think I'm in the right movie. And then I got up and walked into the correct movie and saw Nickel Boys. I took it as a sign from the universe. I was like, the universe wants me to see Peter Hujar's day and it didn't make a lot of money. I was going to say that, Jamie. Yeah. I was going to say the universe was taking care of you probably and like, they were like, you're not in the blue moon mood. Come see this other one. And I will say, I did see blue moon later and I liked Peter Hujar's day better. I would recommend it if anyone wants to learn about, and it's great. It's Ben Wyshaw and Rebecca Hall and they're the only two people in the movie. I enjoyed it. Okay. Nice. Anyway. American fiction. I wanted to just really quickly close the loop on adaptation. Yes. Yeah. Percival Everett was like, it was interesting. I was like, what a scary thing that Corey Jefferson like did a special screening for Percival Everett and was like, it was the scariest thing that has ever happened. Like being like, hey, I adapted your, you know, and Percival Everett was not really involved in the production. Yeah. And there are a lot of changes made and he like didn't really say anything about it. Percival Everett's like, he's fun to read his interviews because he's a weird, he's a weird man. Where he's like, I don't know. It's like sort of, it's 25 years later. It's kind of removed. I feel removed from it. And then he just like spends the rest of the interview showing the writer a bunch of paintings he's working on. So he's an artist. But the changes that are made are generally ones that move focused towards the family because the book is like a good chunk of the book is fuck or my pathology. Right. And like the family elements are all preserved from the book, but they're definitely expanded on in a way that I've, it was interesting reading different critics and writers takes on the one thing that I did want to point out that was like a significant change that I like don't quite understand is the changes with Lorraine's character, where in the book, there is a pretty significant class tension between Lorraine and the Ellison's that is mostly done away with in the movie. And again, it's like, not that I'm like, I want to see a like an unhappy class dynamic in this family. But yeah, like it's the story with Lorraine, I think is like far. There's there's not really as much friction in it as there was in the book in a movie that otherwise is like very down to deal with class. It felt like to me they season the movie with kind of the spectrum of blackness, which I appreciate saying like there are different types of black people. These are one type of black people. And here's a different type. And I feel like it was you had to be paying attention in some portions to really get that, whether it's the interactions between Lorraine and the family, the fact that she works for them, and they are calling her family. And also the way they are treating her as someone who works for them is almost like an auntie. It's very auntie coded. It's very grandma coded. It's very it feels very familial. But there's an interaction that happens between Maynard and Monk that I want to point out where Maynard is basically he does something that I've seen black folks do when they know that you are doing well, and they then make a suggestion to you about what you should do with your career. And the suggestion denotes no knowledge of how any of this works. When he looks this band in his face and says, you should write for him. And I remember he goes, it's a pretty popular show. You should write for it. And I wanted to be like, I don't know what y'all think happens at the successful levels of being a writer and he is a moderately successful writer, but it doesn't mean that you could just walk into a TV writers room and start writing for television. Hello, I would like to write for NCIS. Exactly. I'm like, if you got that job, he'd probably love it to be honest with you. But I remember thinking about that as being a notable distinction about what types of black folks these are, which for me, it's like if you if you're around a lot of black people, you would notice that, but it might not be something that is kind of as highlighted as you mentioned that it was in the book. Yeah, I mean, I think that the closest it got to really calling out the class dynamic where like they are very close but also their her employers and like the lines are clearly very murky even though everybody loves each other. It's during one of Monk and Cliff's many like tense interactions about money. So again, it's like they need enough money to send their mother to a facility and there is the class dynamic of like part of why Monk, you know, compromises his creativity so severely is because he needs money and like, you know, it's very present but there's like that little exchange where Monk is like can you like can you contribute so that we can take care of mom. And he's like, well, I don't know like you could always just fire Lorraine and I was like, uh, okay, so there's the line so it's like acknowledged and never again it's like, you know, I understand like why those decisions are made, but it did make sense to me that that was like expanded upon in the book like that And I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's like, you know, I think that's Like, you know, it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it but not quite as blunt was like interesting because yeah, I mean it's we we live in a society and I was like God I just wish we knew a little bit more about like Lorraine's interior life. I love that she gets a love story and that she is like celebrated and like surrounded by people who love her but yeah I think that was like really the only thing in this movie that I was like I wonder why we didn't get into that a little bit more because money and class are like very much on the table for this whole movie. Yeah, yeah for sure. I was gonna say that I did really appreciate the the movie sets aside time to show a romance between Lorraine and Maynard because you almost never see an on-screen love story between two older people let alone two older black people so the fact that that's there was very refreshing. Yeah the class situation there did feel skimmed over. I mean like one movie can't do anything but I just felt like because it was dealt with in the source material felt worth mentioning. For sure. Also there's a part where they're talking about what it's going to cost per month for Agnes to live in assisted living and different numbers get thrown around but it's going to cost at least like five thousand dollars a month which is so much money and Cliff says something like well doesn't Medicare take care of that and Monk goes like well that's not how it works you're a doctor shouldn't you know that and he's like but like that also felt so real for me because the number of doctors I've talked to who don't seem to understand how like insurance and billing works and they completely they're like oh you can't afford this well darn I don't know can you call your insurance company and it's just like why don't you know this if only it were that easy. Yeah right that that's a tiny tiny moment but yeah I wanted to point that out for sure I mean and it is it is a nice facility and I did appreciate that they put actual numbers in there too because for like people who have never I mean included myself like I've never had been involved in the finances of of helping a relative get into a facility and like having those numbers like as blunt as they are I feel like it's always a good thing yeah because it's terrifying you're like yeah who the fuck can afford that everyone would have to sell out their morals and write their version of fuck to be able to afford that. Truly yeah can we talk about the other women in this story? Jamie you alluded to this already but to me it felt like I don't think the characters were undercooked but it felt like a lot of the storylines either kind of went unresolved or they just sort of tapered off or we didn't get as much emphasis on the characters who are women as I would have liked but we as we said like Lisa is such a great character she has an untimely death. Coraline I also really enjoy her as a character and I don't mind that she doesn't that like she and Monk don't make up because he was being a fucking asshole and she doesn't owe him anything she doesn't have to forgive him and in the scope of this story that we see on screen she doesn't forgive him and there isn't any closure there which again is fine but also then that means her character just sort of disappears. Well it's also when we get information about her at the beginning like in her introductory scene basically where like she is a lawyer she talks about like how she feels about the ethics of defending like being a public defender defending guilty people we find out that she is in the process of like either a long-term relationship or a divorce like happening but I wouldn't say any of that information is relevant in future scenes like I appreciate that we learned things about her but it is not really plot relevant information which is always kind of like a tiny red flag for me and writing women characters in the modern day where it's like oh we can't tell you nothing about her let's just tell you a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter you're like okay it's a little thing but I was like I like getting to know her at the first scene and then but then she does sort of just become a girlfriend for the remainder of the movie. I think for me uh in contrast to Tracy Ellis Ross who comes in strong and is abruptly taken away from us the way that Erica Alexander is introduced is kind of is a little bit more uh it's she's she's mixed in a little bit more like should we get some of her we get more of her and we get more and more of her until we get uh basically get less of her towards the end and I feel like there's and maybe this is because I love these women so much in terms of their bodies of work that for me I'm like I'm just every time they're on screen I'm happy to see them which kind of made me not think nearly as much about the ways in which they were uh in some cases used or underdeveloped as plot devices for the journey that uh Monk is going on because there's no reason for you to make a movie like this and not be able to have fully fleshed out women characters that are that are doing something but it seemed like all of the women were doing one thing collectively for Monk whereas it was about his relationship with his mother his relationship with Lorraine his relationship with this sister and his relationship with Erica and all of those served one purpose as opposed to breaking them out and making them a lot more unique uh and in terms of a feat of casting watching this film I loved seeing all of these women uh but in terms of story it is a little bit like there could have been more here but I don't know how I would fix it if I were him because that's not the story that he wanted to tell right well I mean a lot of movies that do what this movie is doing which is you know examining some societal issue or satirizing something or you know putting some societal ill under the magnifying glass a lot of movies that do that will criticize it but then ultimately still end up doing the thing because of the way the story is told or whatever this movie doesn't do that because in addition to providing the commentary about underdeveloped and stereotypical black characters in media it also avoids the stereotypes and develops its characters and gives all of those characters interior lives and arcs even though you know some of them are small but that's the thing like it they're little subplots in a larger story that is about Monk and his work right so I feel like this is one of the few movies I have seen actually that like doesn't criticize or satirize the thing and then also end up doing the bad thing um so it can be done for sure I feel like we've come up we've talked about a lot of movies like that on this podcast where it's like well it's like criticizing the thing but it's also still doing the thing but this movie doesn't do that and I appreciate that and so um yeah the fact that we get like we get a little arc for Cliff a queer black man we get an arc for for Coraline and it's in the context of her relationship with Monk but you know there we get to know her character a bit we get a small arc for Agnes kind of again that's that feels like it goes sort of unresolved but well I think they assume that money solves that problem and so they're like if if he has more money then obviously this problem is solved which is we we don't get the full resolution especially because we think about the scene between Agnes and Cliff with with their dancing in the in the home and she says she says to him I knew you wasn't queer or something like that where I was just like oh my god and and and Sterling K Brown acts it so well as he's well as a preters and leaves but we don't really get a resolution there either but you also get an understanding of why maybe he doesn't want to be around his mother even if she does have Alzheimer's but you're right it's not since we don't see her anymore even though she has these like lines where she's like saying such profound things like she talked about her husband it says it says uh like that there's a story in there when she says um I knew he was cheating on me and he goes why did you leave her like leave him and she says I do he would be too lonely if I left I was like yo that is wow that's so much there you know boomers boomers what we do see in these characters feels so familiar with what we all experience as humans in our relationships with our family and our romantic relationships and even if they seem like they go unresolved in the context of a story that's also how a lot of relationships end up like they there isn't like a neat tidy resolution there isn't like this amazing closure so because we get so much insight into these characters and their philosophies about life and their feelings and their regrets there's also that scene where cliff is talking to monk and he's saying how he he resents that that their father died before cliff came out to him yeah I mean that's that's the oscar nomination scene right right it's a great scene and monk is saying like well what if he rejected you and cliff's like well I would have rather him reject the real me than him not knowing who I actually am well okay so with that though and I am gonna like a little I still feel like and again it's like because of it's being adapted from another source it's difficult because it seems like the structure of the story being adapted is like there is a woman involved in like each area of monk's life and monk is the main character so it's just like there's not a lot of women in rooms together because they tend to either want like I have no issue with like you know like not every thread being completely tied up by the end of the movie because that's life and it feels very in step with what the movie is but I do feel like you know that scene with cliff is so profound and so good and I wish that there were more scenes like that with the many women who we meet throughout this movie I think that I mean I think Ronald like echoing what you were saying about Agnes's scene talking about putting up with her husband's infidelities for like this very like I don't know my heart wrenching reason like those are that's a really strong moment and I you know I just think that this story in general does favor those kinds of realizations for its male characters yeah which is like you know not unusual but it's just I think it stands out to me here because we have not just a lot of women in the story but a lot of like heavy hitters where I'm like I wanted that scene for you know Erica Alexander I don't know I did feel like we we there had to be a way to get these women in the room with each other more but I mean we also have Cintara who we haven't talked about yet yes oh like I mentioned that I wrote out pretty much that entire scene where she and monk are talking as they're like evaluating the different books for the literary awards and you know she says I think that the book fuck is pandering and soulless and monk is like exactly but no offense how is that different from your book we's lives in the ghetto and she's like well I did a lot of research from my book and I pulled from real people's like interviews and experiences and even though that's not my personal experience I write about what interests people and he's like well you're catering to like these white publishers who are obsessed with black trauma porn and she defends her choices about she says that's that's what the market wants and that's where I thought the line of hypocrisy existed here because for me the biggest I think the would as that conversation is happening she says I want the market once but she ends up putting a button on that scene by saying potential because he says I just think black people have more potential than that and she says potential is what people say when people think what's in front of them isn't good enough and it was a dunk line but I remember saying you don't deserve that line because you can't even see if you could see that his book is pandering then you have to see how your book even if it was well researched is also pandering but I think both of them were such imperfect vessels to deliver the point that they end up talking past each other in this incredible way that again ultimately made me more frustrated than satisfied but it was interesting I watched that scene like a couple times and I totally agree like you're like okay no one is like definitively right like they're both like which is which is like awesome and I just I hope that like audience members like register that because you're like there are so many great lines and you're like well sure but like are you the ideal person to be saying that it's because they're both at the end of the day and it's like this is something that we should all talk about and be aware of it's like at the end of the day they're both trying to make a living doing this and so like I don't know yeah it's it's entire was so so interesting and I really liked that you know you see and it's mostly like just in Jeffrey Wright's performance of like just watching him listen to her of like oh f*** I like her you know like even though clearly like they are not on board with what the other is doing and they find each other to be pandering in different ways but like but yeah I mean Centara is clearly like a really smart really good writer who it's just like all right come on like admit you're doing it a little bit too like everyone is complicit in and it's like in this capitalist art structure I don't know it's a great scene though it's so good she's saying the right things the John noticed also that this is just a small thing just like like as a black person I got really excited the fact that they don't disparage each other in front of white people like they they were they were disagreeing back there but as soon as the white woman came back into the room they stopped talking and then also when they pick up the conversation again they are still united that this book should not win which even though they they've dug into it for the right for the wrong reasons whatever they both agree on that thing and that's the front that they present which I'm like that is that is real being black because there are so many times when I'm just like I don't like this thing but I'm not going to tell y'all the reason why or I'm not going to and I'm certainly not going to duck on my brother here because we we we have work to do here or whatever but I really appreciate it that yeah the button on that scene is so funny because you know they've they've just had this very intellectual and very nuanced conversation the white woman comes in like completely clueless like oh so what are we talking about another another moment where we're like oh no is that me hi everybody I know I'm like oh no has this been me I mean statistically very logistically it's been it's been out very likely um yeah that scene is really really uh I feel like Issa Rae's performance in this movie is very underrated very good because that to me I'm like that's an Oscar nomination scene just as much as the Sterling K Brownwood is it's it's really really also the moment as they're talking when he's saying like your writing is reductive and it it like flattens black people as a whole and she says well do you get angry at Brett Easton Ellis or Charles Bukowski for writing about the downtrodden or is your ire strictly reserved for black women and then he's like no and she's like you're directing your frustration at the wrong people it sounds like you have a problem with white people trying to uphold the status quo rather than me and my work right so just a few other because again there's there's so many good lines of dialogue or just great moments in this movie that I want to shout out um the scene where Monk goes into probably like a Barnes and Noble or something and he discovers that his all of his novels are in the African-American studies section and uh he's like kind of badgering the sales clerk and he's like I don't I don't choose where the books go and then Monk takes all of his books and I think just like categorizes them in like the regular fiction section uh it's so good it's so good I again I feel like applies to a wide variety of experiences too where it's like why is this book being categorized as not well whatever like how generally white authors and white male authors specifically are the ones who are categorized as like general fiction but if you are marginalized in any way all of a sudden you're in a monk situation where you're being put in African-American fiction you're being put in like women's studies I've once found my book about hot dogs in women's studies and I was like excuse me like hot dogs what are you all talking about everybody likes hot dogs but you're like it's it's niche because you're niche and I I loved that scene of him stomping around with 40 copies of the Haas what was it called again conundrum or Sahaska Nundrum being like this is for everyone this is great yeah loved that loved just all the scenes with the the white people at the publishing company when they're like yeah we're this book is so important and so brave and we're gonna release it on Juneteenth and yeah it should be called fuck that's actually that's a great title for a book like literally I mean there's one line where one of the guys is like honestly this this is to be a great time to capitalize on white guilt and that'll help move copies and it's like even though they're so cartoony in certain points like what they're saying is very self-aware they know exactly what they're doing and yeah it's ugly also the movie that that Wiley character is currently directing called the plantation annihilation they got one in on Ryan Reynolds talking about it was one thing me seeing it on the chairs I was like this is hilarious this is hilarious it was great I mean and it's super fast but they were like oh and Ryan Reynolds is in it because Ryan Reynolds and Blake Wiley famously got married on a plantation and will never have to stop apologizing for it because that's fucking unhinged yuck I will say white folks at the time that they got married on a plantation a lot more white folks than just them were getting married on plantations and no one saw it as an issue until someone was like hey why y'all getting married on plantations and then everyone immediately was like oh no we definitely should be doing this it's been like 2012 it was shockingly recent anyways I just I liked that especially like in your I don't know I just thought that was like really ballsy and cool to take a swipe at one of the world's most famous actors in your first movie rocked yeah yeah also the plot of plantation annihilation sort of sounds like the plot of titanic two or no titanic three sorry titanic six six six oh yes starring another member of the girlfriend's cast I believe unfortunately for oh my gosh Keisha sharp yeah right in titanic six six what can you look look yikes yeah a movie about the ghosts of all the people who were killed on the titanic coming back and murdering the passengers of a ship called titanic three a to be original I believe yes yes really fine filmmaking we can all agree I look look I had a good time I think about it more than many good movies I've seen so make stuff what you will that's not a good metric Jamie am I thinking about it yes it's always top of mind I think more about memes than I do about Oscar winners oh gosh um yeah does anyone else have any any other thoughts on American fiction I think we did it um yeah I mean yeah just that like I really appreciate what this movie is doing criticizing the stereotypical narratives about black Americans that white people in the media keep insisting on perpetuating and trying to capitalize on their obsession with stories about black suffering the the expectations that they put on black creatives that they can only tell certain types of stories about certain types of characters and monk being like let me let me write my books about like that are adaptations of greek tragedies or whatever I mean truly it's like it's there's whatever I mean something we've talked about in the show many times of like how any marginalized community but very often black writers and creatives specifically are like expected to write autobiographically or from the perspective of their own community and aren't just able to write stories whatever the fuck they want to write about which is what actual creative equity looks like is what do you want to write about what are you interested in and there's the book and I really appreciate monks even though it's like the way he expresses it as often misguided but like I agree with that like that that's what is creative equality if like you know write about write from you know your own perspective if you want to but like that shouldn't be the expectation for any artist um for sure I just wanted to shout out also that there is uh unusual I was looking at the behind the scenes the crew and there are a lot of women and women of color involved behind the scenes in a way that you don't normally see in movies we have a woman cinematographer edited by a woman scored by a woman so just shout out because that is still so rare in in big movies yeah I think generally I it's this is a movie that I enjoyed it when it came out I enjoyed the Oscar run and I really felt like it was all capped by core Jefferson's speech which was again he says uh it was something along the lines of hey have y'all ever considered that you could just give a little money to someone to make a better movie rather than giving a whole bunch of money to someone to make a terrible movie like what if you broke that budget up and make like basically that was the speech that he gave which I felt like to use his platform at that moment for that was just excellent and I think a lot of this movie the way it was made the way it was written the way it all comes together was just very indicative of who I assume that core Jefferson is as a person and ultimately it was a very satisfying film for me yeah I really hope that he makes more movies and gets the funding to make more movies he's not asking for much he really isn't he really isn't but it's like thinking of that I was like god how many butts were clenched when he was like you you don't need to spend 300 million dollars on a piece of shit never almost like no we do we really do we have to make a more marvel movie yeah oh speaking of which oh no I'm sorry I went into friend mode and not workbow but watch wonder man oh yeah I watched the first two episodes so far and I'm really enjoying it two years of tv to catch up on jay me prioritize it okay prioritize it I'm walking put this on the top I just got sick this is a great time for me to watch tv yes yes this will make you feel better this will heal the movie does pass the bechtel test in that scene that we mentioned earlier between agnes and core line where they are both happy that core line is white which is an excellent excellent excellent pass could have passed more but we've kind of talked through that at this point as far as our nipple scale where we rate the movie on the scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens I think because this movie accomplishes so much in its examination of how black characters and black stories are represented in mainstream media in the US and has so many interesting and poignant things to say about it not me being like the like white judge on the panel or like that white publisher lady this is such an important film and it's so brave you have to listen to black voices it's like it's giving the blurb for fun sorry sorry oh ronald can you can you be quiet well I love I am and saying this um but no I do truly love this movie and I think it's so awesome and funny and it's accomplishing a lot so I will give it four nipples I think again docking it a little bit for not I think including the characters who are women and their relationships with each other as much as I feel like it could have it feels like there is room for it but yeah it's it's also it's doing so much else so four nipples and I will distribute them among tracelus ross issa ray erica alexander I'll give a half nipple to Keith david oh and his brief cameo in the movie and I'll give my other half nipple to sterling k brown my long time crush I'm gonna be slightly pedantic and do 3.75 I'm taking the little nipple slicer out um yeah it's very soft which is very jigsaw of me to do um jigsaw I've like I don't know I my my two gripes with this movie are yeah the that we have so many great women characters and we learn about them but I think it's I'm most specifically thinking about coreline where we do learn a lot about her but kind of for no reason and I just wish that she you know had a little more to do that wasn't girlfriend.jpg coded but yeah that said there are a lot of really rich characters throughout this movie you can't give everyone an arc I get it I'm just being picky that and um the Lorraine class element are the two things that like stuck out to me but also like you're saying Caitlin this movie is doing so much it is not the job of one movie to address every single intersection of identity and this movie is doing us a ton while being what movies rarely are which is very funny and like all the performances are so like every character gets a great comedic moment um and yeah it's a good movie it was it was fun to revisit for this and I hope that people keep talking about it so core Jefferson can make more movies um so I'm gonna give it 3.75 and I'm give I'm giving them all to Dr. Lisa Ellison my favorite character oh R.A.P. I would give it four nipples as well um there there's parts of it even watching at a second time where I was just like there's some there's some pacing issues sometimes uh where it slows down and I kind of like begin to say where are we going can we speed this up can we bring this more tightly together it's about a two-hour movie I don't know if it needed all two of those hours it's an hour and 56 I was like you're probably gonna cut that down somewhere there look few of these scenes that which is many such movies yeah yeah and I'm just a guy that like when I think about timing I always think about diehard where it's a swiss watch everything that starts is something that ends and everything that if you start a beat you end it here all of that I want that uh but that being said great movie four nipples I would evenly distribute the nipples amongst everyone black in this film as Issa Rae says I'm rooting for everyone black and I think everyone that showed up clocked in and did their jobs and I think uh there wasn't that one person that I was not happy to see on screen even down to Maynard and Lorraine where I'm just happy to see them happy to see uh them find each other even when he's wearing his uniform uh at the wedding uh like it was just very very cute and adorable and I just everyone did a great job I they really clocked in came to work and it's an argument for we should be saying more Erica Alexander more Tracy Ellis Ross uh and the fact that we're not more Issa Rae even in acting in roles like this three women who still have so much to give us give them more opportunities to give us more of this I I will never have to say that about Jeffrey Wright or Stirling K Brown those men have been working and will continue to work for for years to come but these are three women that I would love to see more of in mainstream hits like this yes absolutely also was Maynard a cop he was he was a sheriff yeah he was he was kind of worse than a cop he was a sheriff um dang well Granite it was a black community and he's a black sheriff so it might be a different interaction he also seemed way more uh folksy around them but still we don't talk to the cops sorry I don't talk to the cops I was like Lorraine you can do better but yeah you know yeah we gotta get Lorraine on the apps anyways yes Ronald thank you so much for joining us again come back anytime oh wait what was your suggestion for a third oh Donnie Darko yeah let's do it let's create the most unhinged trifecta of movies that has ever been covered on the show deep dive on Donnie Darko yes thank you so much for having me oh thanks for coming back where can we find you and uh you've got an upcoming show yes you could find me on instagram threads letterbox at oh it's big round that's at oh h it's b i g r o n if you're in the washington dc area you should come to my live show on February 21st at the barricade theater it's called heartbreaker I will be talking about my love life through the lens of growing up as a child in the church seeing the love of my parents having an expectation of love as an adult and continuously failing in relationship after relationship after relationship I'll be talking about my last three relationships in particular and I'm very excited to share those stories on stage live at the miracle theater February 21st here in Washington DC please come if you can damn bring it to LA that sounds so good hey if it's good in DC and someone will give me somebody then yes well thank you so much for for joining us again uh come back soon we'll we'll start brushing up on Donnie Darko awesome yes we will and in the meantime you can follow us on instagram at bechtelcast and you can subscribe to our matryon at patreon.com slash bechtelcast where you get two bonus episodes a month always on a just genius theme that is awesome and so good where else are you gonna get episodes on titanic 666 fucking nowhere and i'm like maybe that sounded like a negative but i meant that as a positive yeah no it's it's actually an important part of film discourse is our episode on titanic 666 so so we'll see you we'll see you over there and uh in the meantime let's go uh tell adam brody how this episode's gonna end so he can disagree with us in three three different pitches yeah okay bye bye the bechtelcast is a production of i heart media hosted and produced by me jamie loftis and me katlyn doronte the podcast is also produced by sophie lichterman and edited by katlyn doronte ever heard of them that's me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed by jamie loftis ever heard of her oh my god and our theme song by the way was composed by mike kaplan with vocals by katherine vasquez insky iconic and a special thanks to the one and only aerostatl asa vera for more information about the podcast please visit link tree slash bechtelcast no gloss no filter just stories spoken without fear for someone who's not generous cannot be an artist the world will be 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