‘Star Wars: Maul—Shadow Lord’ Check-in

Greetings and welcome to House of Art, a ringer-verse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and she is here, real role reversal to talk about her animated boyfriend, Maul. It's Joanna Robinson. Ruben! I'm not sure it sounds the safest Kenobi. In your best Kenobi voice. You tried. You tried. You tried. And Maul, a lot of his life is about effort and the hustle and trying. So I think he'd respect it. We are here to talk about the two part premiere of the newest Star Wars show, Star Wars. Maul, Shadow Lord. You've got a colon in there. And a dimension there. It's all happening. And we will get to it right after this. Okay, Joe. Before we dive into today's mini Maul celebration. A bite-sized snack. Quick one. Yeah. Quick one. You're packing up your life to move to a different city. I am heading to the airport in mere hours to go up to the Bay Area for rewatchables. We love Maul. So even though this is going to be a little bit briefer than our typical dalliances with Sith Lords or otherwise, we wanted to spend a couple minutes here with one of our favorite Star Wars baddies. And we've got some other stuff coming on the feed as well because we've already recorded the next pod. We did it yesterday. We did it. It's going to run in a couple days. Look at that. We can say with utter and complete confidence that Buffy season four, part two, will be in your feeds on Thursday. Get excited. Probably not going to be too long of a wait before we do season five. We're excited to keep going with the Buffy rewatch. That's been a blast. We will also be continuing our Chris Nolan rewatch on the journey, the path, the days, weeks, months toward the Odyssey. And up next is Memento. So that's exciting. Will you come to the studio covered head to foot in tattoos? Have you decided? I don't know. He's not covered head to foot, but I might, I might, you know, I might, you know, unbutton the chest. Show me a little chest. Yeah. I mean, people are going to expect it now that you've said it, you know, I'll think about it. You're adoring public is going to wait with bated breath. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Oh, what a great question. Listen, why don't you subscribe to the pod? That's a good idea. Follow us on social. I'm just going to zoom through this. We don't have a lot of time here today. It's dally, right? So follow us on social. You know where to find us. We're on Instagram, TikTok, et cetera. Add house of our pod. I was messing with house of our pod. Our own feed. What a joy. Hobbes and dragons at dml.com. We've already gotten some of your Buffy responses. Some of your Memento anticipation. Want to hear your mall thoughts. Yeah. I want to hear all about them. Oh, and also if you're one of the many people who have been emailing us or commenting like, where are the other Daredevil episodes? We never said we were doing that show week to week. That was never a promise we made from us too. So will we check back in? Hopefully, hopefully maybe, but it was never a plan to go week to week on that show. So yeah, there you go with love and respect. Love and respect to Matt Murdock, but not to Heather. Never. Spoiler warning for today's pod. Well, obviously the first two episodes of shadow lord chapters one and two, the dark revenge and sinister schemes. I'm loving these episode names. They're so moody. Very good. So what's the thing? We're also going to talk about other mall canon today. We're going to be dotting it in some memories, celebrating just some favorite moments that we consider crucial. We're not doing a deep dive of the first two episodes, but we're sort of like using the premiere of the show to talk about the premise of the show and why it's interesting, why it positions mall as a character in an interesting moment of the Star Wars timeline, but his timeline most of all and how the framing of the story so far has pulled us back. Hold on some of our fondest ties to the character from either the past or future of the timeline. So if it's happened in the Clone Wars or rebels or phantom menace or solo hashtag make solo to happen. You're just going to spend a lot of time on that hologram. I know you didn't doubt that I'd get solo to happen in there. And guess what? I did. It's been 27 years of Darth Maul. There are so many Star Wars fan for whom Maul has always been here. That's really cool. Sometimes he's been Darth Maul, Sith Lord. Sometimes he's just tried really hard to pretend he's a Sith Lord and sometimes he's just Maul. Sometimes he's a crime syndicate boss. Sometimes he's walking around like a metal spider on a trash planet. Sometimes he's just half a guy. Always a full guy that Maul. He's the best. I'm excited to just talk about why he's such a fun and interesting character and all of his many variations. So let's get to our mini Maul dive. Let's do it. Okay, Joanna. Season one of Shadow Lord, the latest, not just Star Wars show, but animated Star Wars show. And a lot of the great Maul canon has existed and come to us in the animated form is 10 episodes, but it's airing over five weeks. They're doing two a week. So we got two episodes already. The finale lines up quite nicely for May the 4th. Maybe that's just a fun way to have a great Star Wars moment. Maybe it means something is happening in that finale that will be a, ooh, ooh, May the 4th be with you, big Star Wars thing on the connected canon front. Who knows. But guess what? Question that we don't have to ask is, will the finale end by setting up the future of the story because they already renewed it. They renewed it for season two before season one even premiered and season one is getting really good reviews. So people seem excited about the show for Star Wars animated enthusiasts or maybe for people who are just diving into the animated verse for the first time because they're interested in Maul or they want some good Star Wars. This is a fun little moment. So let's start kind of just in the big picture sense. Like why do you love Maul as a character and what is your relationship to his animated canon in particular and to Star Wars animation as a way to explore character canon beyond what we get in the live action? Before I answer that question that you so beautifully put to me and I will. Can I just say really quickly because now you have my theory brain going. Yeah. I've only watched the first two episodes. They sent us a bunch of screeners. I only watched the first two episodes. Rare moment of restraint for me. Yeah. But here are some of the other episode titles, right? Whispers in the Unknown, Pride and Vengeance, Inquisition, Night of the Hunted, Call to the Oblivion, The Creeping Fear, Strange Allies and the finale is just called Finale, which is a really weird name for a finale of a show that's getting another season to just call it finale. So is it a finale of what? You know, like is there is a double meaning in that? I've also seen some theories and again, I am not washed ahead. Is it a 2B announced title for that episode? Possibly. Very possibly. I am willing to consider that. But it's not it's not written that way because usually that's the case. It would be like 2B. Yeah. You know, so either it's like a fake title that they put out there or you know, or it's like New Avengers and it will change or who knows what. Like is there an asterisk? Like the one next to Thunderbolts? Chapter 10 Vaters in this one. You know, like who knows? Like something like that. I know that that's something a lot of people are asking like will we see a Mall Vader fight because if they can like sneak a couple fights in for Obi-Wan Invader, why couldn't they do it for Mall Invader? So something to think about. I don't know the answer. I'm just asking questions. I will be astonished if over the course of this show, whether it's in season one, I don't know, finale would be a great place. But over the course of this show, Vader will be making more than one appearance because animated Vader is like a, I mean, obviously Vader is a through line of Star Wars more broadly, but Filoni loves to get. They have Vader into the animated mix. They have no chill when it comes to Vader. I respect it. So that's where we are. Okay. So why do we love Mall or why do I love Mall? This is a really easy answer for me because, you know, we've been talking a lot about Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Mall really just like fits into that sort of like, that larger sort of like Loki, you know, Sawyer, Spike, Jamie Lannister sort of archetype for me. He's less on a redemption arc and they have said very clearly in the show, we are not redeeming Mall in the show. Like that's not something we're interested in. Like he's a baddie. He stays a baddie. Like that's the idea. But the thing about Mall is there's so much nuance to, you know, the shape that his evil takes. Yes. And like Spike and I think Spike and Loki especially, if his if his cause aligns with your cause, he's going to work with you. And it's going to be really fun and he's going to be really good at it and you're going to be really happy to have him on his side. And then he's going to be like, did you forget I was evil? Oops, I am. So, you know, that's just the fun of Mall. I think Sam Whitworth's performance is absolutely incredible to transform a character who showed up in the Phantom Menace and looked really cool, but was just kind of like, you know, with love and respect to Peter Sarafinowitz who did the voice for Mall in the Phantom Menace. Like just not much there there, but besides the really cool look and the Kiki flips and stuff like that. And so for Sam Whitworth, a huge Star Wars fan to leverage the work he had already done in, you know, video games and animation for Star Wars to get this gig to then just like own this character and be so good at what he does here that they that Mall becomes something they can't resist bringing back again and again and again because he's so fun to watch and to listen to. And then Sam Whitworth becoming like already being this huge Star Wars nerd, but becoming this like he likes, he's like, don't call me an encyclopedia. I'm a holocron. Like he's just like this huge font of Star Wars nerdery. So he's like excellent on the conventions circuit or on a podcast or the case may be he knows everything about Star Wars. And so for him to have like a co-creator credit on this show. So for this character that he took over, but then like has really taken over, that's a really cool story too. And it's a story again, I'd say I talk about a lot when we talk about Spike on Buffy of like an actor seeing an opportunity and just really giving something his all all the juice that he has and becoming just an indispensable, undeniable, compulsively watchable kind of character. And that's what Sam has done for this role. And I just, I admire him for that. I love it. I love it. He Whitworth nerd, nerd King is just such a prominent part of our lives consuming stories that we love in worlds we love for so long. You know, I've still got some notes for beloved crash down in BSG could have gone differently for him, but wonderful Sam performance, Aiden and being human, one of my favorites, obviously, but not just mall, but his like his voice work and his performances across a number of different Star Wars animated properties, live action, video, central to video game cannon, etc. Like he's just been such an inextricable part of the Star Wars experience for fans for so long. And he's been embodying mall for so long, you know, we're into the second decade of it and longer than that for the character, but just for Sam's connection to that role. And so for him to feel such a deep tie and investment in continuing to explore mall's story and also just to your point, like to have that authorship and partnership with the creators is just a really cool thing. And we love the, you know, the enthusiasm and when that permeates into the quality of the story, that's like always a rewarding thing if you as a fan are invested in a character in the story. It's great. It's also my approach to this show is so different from how I would usually feel about sort of like a, it's a sequel to a prequel to a, you know, I mean, like it's just one of those Star Wars stories. It's like really jammed in the middle of like a bunch of other stuff and like sometimes I could bear tremendous fruits. And then sometimes you're like, are you just doing this to do it? Or like, I feel so hemmed in by what I already know about this world or this character or something like that. But hearing Sam Whitworth talk about like the questions, the psychological, philosophical, emotional questions he has about mall as a character and what he wants to explore with this show, it doesn't feel like we're doing it just to do it. It really feels like, you know, to go back to like Obi-Wan, like the Obi-Wan show, I just don't really feel like they had some questions about Obi-Wan they really wanted to answer. They were just sort of like, wouldn't it be cool if Obi-Wan and Little Leia like bopped around and all this other stuff happened? And sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't. But like, I did not feel like they fundamentally had some like really cool questions and answers that they wanted to get through on that show. What about wouldn't it be cool if Obi-Wan got really sweaty, slicing, so she and the baking many sons? Disgusting. It didn't smell good. Didn't smell great. It was what I was going to say. It looked great. I love the spike comp. Yeah, I think that's I think the combination of the the character archetype that you're identifying, which is so compelling and the genuine like open set of questions for a mall in this slice of his life. Like it is interesting, you know, one of the things that really everybody involved with the show, Whitworth, the creative team, the writers, the directors have been hammering is the idea that like you don't need any to do any hope. No, you don't need to have read the Son of Dathomir comics. Though I'd recommend them. They're great. You don't need to have seen Clone Wars or Rebels. Though I'd recommend that they're great. You can just come in cold and start here. One of the things that we obviously like to do on this podcast is talk about the connections we have to the stories and also that provide that that context for viewers who might be coming in. But it's it doesn't even though it is positioned in such a fascinating spot in the timeline where there are simultaneously a lot of open room to play like this show. We'll run through some of the timeline beats in a second here, but this show is right after set right after Order 66. They haven't said like the exact this is the exact date, but it basically said an 18 BBY or 66 19 BBY. And basically, that means that this show is going to be telling story contemporaneously with what Bad Batch just covered. And as everyone will recall, when Bad Batch came out, one of the big talking points was like, this is actually not a stretch of the canon timeline that there's a lot of locked in definitive story. And so in general, that seems like an interest right now is to flesh out that stretch of relatively speaking open world. But for mall, and again, we issued the spoiler warning at the top, but we will be talking not only about things that happened to all before, but things that happened to all in the future. I think that's part of what makes this really fascinating. And this is not unique at Star Wars. We know the end point. Like so to the red to this is not going to be a redemption story note that you shared. How could it be? Like, I guess there could be a mini redemption and a back. Yeah, in a back slide. A redemption. We do have a redemption blip and a back side. Very human. That would be interesting. But like, you know, we're we know that that moment at the end of solo is coming with Crimson Dawn and the crime syndicate. We have crime syndicate canon in the past. But what we really know is coming is what happened in rebels, right? Malachor and being stranded on that planet for years. And the state that mall was in when he wound up with Ezra and Canaan and our beloved rebels crew. And we know the end point, like, definitively for this character. I mean, rebels. So somehow Palpatine returned. So like, you know, they could do anything they wanted, I guess, with Mal. But like his death scene in Rebels is so good that I would be quite angry as much as I love Mal. I'd be quite angry if they figured. Yes. I would direct him. I think that you are wise as always to remind us that somehow Palpatine returned. We should never go too long without saying that out loud. But I think like they already did it with Mal, you know. The somehow Mal returned like this too. Got cut in half. And somehow you're returned and somehow Mal returned. And that is like such a delight. And I don't think you realize how he survived, but they did it with him already. I don't think we would want to do that because I was actually just like watching some old interviews with him this morning. And there was one interview he gave where he was just sort of like years ago talking about like if Palpatine comes back, that ruins the fairytale of the original trilogy is like it ruins the fairytale. And then he's like and then later he was like, OK, they did it. That was someone else's fairytale, I guess. And that's fine. But it's not it's not the fairytale that I, you know, he's a he's a prequel defender and I think a kind of a sequel hater, which, you know, makes sense for the camp that he falls into and it's Star Wars. But yeah, I don't think he would want to do it. Somehow Mal returned. I think he would want to do something in that he the time period he he read again and again is like 15 unknown years scattered across Mal's lifetime. Where are we going to go? And he's like, here's here's this is the most important place to go because in 19 B.B. You are 18 B.B.Y. And I love that you're like they didn't give us a date. They give us a year, but she's like, what's the month? What's the day? How many minutes? Well, they're doing a lot of like like if you read the Star Wars dot com preview pieces and the way that they were kind of setting up the show. They were saying like a few years after his old master, Darth Sidious, succeeded in launching the Imperial Empire. That's a quote and a few years into the creation of the Empire. Shortly after the conclusion of the Clone Wars, it's like, is it 70? Is it 16? 18 seems to be like where Sam have landed. Sam has been saying about a year. That's yeah, about a year as as as close as we're going to get. And obviously, like part of what happens in the first two episodes is that we meet yet the the the latest, the newest. OK, here's another master and apprentice who survived Order 66 on the Jedi front. Biggest flop in all orders ever. Overrated, underrated or probably rated Order 66. Overrated. Oh, deeply overrated. So many Jedi survived. Are you kidding me? What's the work, man? But like it's a great place to set it because so to very quickly run. So Phantom Man is 32 BBY. So that's in the past, right? Clone Wars, when Maul comes back into the story and we realize that he has been living on this trash planet, his brother, a savagial press, who will hit a couple of times today quickly, reunited the episode brothers. The end of season four of Clone Wars. That's 20 BBY. So like there's a lot of Maul story that comes in Clone Wars that happens actually in a very concentrated period of time, which is sort of interesting to go back and like reflect on. It feels like it's a much longer stretch than it is because it's over many seasons and many episodes of Clone Wars. The lawless season five, one of my favorite episodes of Star Wars ever, 20, 19ish BBY. That is the spoiler alert moment when Maul kills my beloved Satine and is working very hard not only to cement his control of Mandalore, but get revenge on Obi-Wan. And so much of the story can now be is rooted in revenge, revenge against Palpatine revenge against Obi-Wan revenge against the characters who have hurt him directly or just abandoned him to some sort of fate of being forgotten. This is why Maul is so fun, because like he's so smart and he's so conniving and he's so persuasive and he's so good. When he decides to like, you know, convince a whole crowd of whoever it is that they want to follow him or an individual person. He doesn't always succeed on this apprentice hunt, obviously. But like, you know, he's so convincing. He's so smart. He's so badass. And then it just gets away from him because of his always, you know, his obsessive need for revenge is tempered. And so this like fatal flaw in this incredibly accomplished man is, you know, the being evil is also a flaw, I would say, but also, you know, just blinded by vengeance. Yeah, like my vengeance is also tough to get your job to get the work done. Yeah. And like, it's fascinating to find him in a few stretches of a story. But in this show, this is like going to clearly be a big thing. This is a big emphasis in how he is pitching Devon and his like, hey, come be my apprentice or recruitment. Framing is like, all right, I'm going to tell you why the empire is bad. Fascinating, right? Again, he just despises. The worst despises person, you know, makes a great point. But he's not like Team Jedi now, right? He's also like the Jedi are still a problem too. And here's why. So he is operating from a position of all of these other factions of power have either wronged me or are wrong or both. Right. I am the one who can see it clearly. But in order to pursue my ends and these thoughts of fate and destiny, which like, of course, if you were the chosen apprentice of Palpy, Mr. Rule of Two, you're going to have a little bit of a God complex. And then it's going to really fuck you up if you've been not just like figuratively, but literally left to rot on a trash planet while you are replaced more than once. That's going to fuck with your head. And so one of the things we both really love the stretch of season seven of Clone Wars, when we get the Ahsoka Maul duel and also like Maul is with Ahsoka as order 66 is unfolding at the end of Clone Wars. It's not just the it's what a great time everybody had. It's not just the like, OK, we have clarified where he is at this key moment. It's the way he talks about Anakin and Palpatine's plots and what awaits in the great hands and tides of fate. And then you move into what we know awaits because we've seen it already before we actually saw the end of Clone Wars. We had seen rebels and we know that when he's dying in Obi-Wan's arms and that's in Twin Sons, the season three rebels episode where Maul and Kenobi have their their fateful duel and Tatooine that's set in two BBY. And Maul's like, you hear you hear about the chosen one? And like that is what kind of gives him peace, even though he has lost to his greatest foe. So this story is set right after order 66. The solo glimpse that we got his call with his hollow call with Kira, 10 BBY and then his rebels appearances, Twilight of the Apprentice, the season two finale to Psychonics, Stretch of Star Wars. If you're like, I'm interested in that Star Wars animation. It seems like a lot. What should I do? Just watch, start with Twilight of Apprentice and then get back to us. That's three BBY. That's the Ezra apprenticeship recruitment. So that's like a really far in the future still. There's a lot to tell us about Maul and this crime syndicate path, especially because what we know from the solo moment is like he's the Crips and Dawn stretch of the story is like a dominant force in his life then. But by the time he's on Malachor in Rebels, he's a. Broken man. He's a husk. So it's got to go right and then it's got to go wrong. And that's the mall, the mall story. Anything else we can learn about him? What a treat. I think also just like emotionally, you touched on this, but like emotionally to have been told that you were a chosen one of some kind, you are stolen from your family when you're a child. Ain't that the way? And then groomed by Palpatine and told you are I am the one and you are number two. And we're going to change this world. And so to find yourself in 18 BBY and the world has changed the way your master always said it was, but you have been left in the dust behind. You know, and and you're at the dawn of this new era. All this stuff that you worked for, that you were brought up to believe that you would be a part of and you were just not a part of it. You're on the outside. And so in that way, he has like, you know, his feeling about the Jedi order, which has always been so sneering. But it's also like, what are you without the institution that raised you? And this is where he finds Devon, you know, like this this question of like. What have you been groomed to be? What has let you down? How can you define how you go forward? If we're not exactly Sith, what are we? If we're not exactly Jedi, what are we? And are we that together? And like, how can I? I just think this is so fertile, such fertile territory for for this particular character to confront to all that he helped build and all that he is not a part of. Yes, let's go. A fantastic way to put it. I think the crime syndicate aspect of the story is interesting. Offshoot, then, of his relationship to the force and to the Sith order and to combating the Jedi, because on the one hand, I think like inherently, the crime syndicate stuff is like a little less interesting, just as like a core germ of Star Wars story. Then you were Palpatine's apprentice and then you were in duel of fates. Like, Maul is a part of just such a seismic aspect of the story that other stuff feels like, oh, and the other parts of Maul's life. But when it's done well, it could be not only refreshing in its variance, right? There are certainly going to be aspects of the story that are rooted in. A force user is seeking to become a master to an apprentice. That's clear. That's the role that Devon is going to play in this story. That is something that Maul is after. The way that he is talking in these first two episodes about to recast one of his because the Mandalorian commandos are here as well. So he's like maintaining these different aspects of his identity. That's something else we love, obviously, is like you lose a complete sense of yourself and then you're stitching it together from other parts of you. And when is that empowering and part of some sort of journey of self actualization? And when is it something you're doing? Because you need to approximate the grasp of the thing you lost. And that's part of what is so interesting to me about the crime syndicate. Placement and positioning for Maul. It's cool to be on like a new planet like Janix and be with some new characters like Lawson and see what the actual story inside of this season and maybe the show more broadly will be on the front, you know, the path from Shadow Collective, which we've gotten a lot of cannon about already, to the new era of Crimson Dawn has been here, but the new era of Crimson Dawn and what will Maul's role in all of that be. But the thing that's like most interesting to me about it is that he is just thinking of everything, including the syndicates as a way to seek revenge. He talks about that constantly across these two episodes, right? His favorite topic. Deimos, Vario, Crim. It's just a list of the fuckers who've wronged him. Who he's either going to use. Yeah, or yeah, exactly who he's either going to try to use for his ends or eliminate. And the fact that he's mixed up in this Shadow Collective in the first place sprung from Maul and Talzin trying to gain more galactic power to challenge Palpatine. So it's this I think it's a really smart way to tell a Star Wars story that threads the needle nicely of giving us a new lens for a new story while connecting to the root of what made this character a relevant part of our Star Wars experience in the first place, because for him emotionally, mentally, spiritually, right? It all ties back to that place. It's not instead of it's in addition to end a path back to always. I think it's also really the potential here for Devon as a character, I'm not like as interested in, obviously, because I don't have all this like history with her. Right. But, you know, there's potential here. But Devon as a potential standard for, I don't know if this is a pocket full or not, though it has been it has been reported widely reported and there claims to be sourcing with George Lucas. But like this idea that there was this whole his whole plan for a sequel trilogy was for Maul to have an apprentice, a Twilight apprentice, Darth Talon, and that this was like a story that George wanted to tell. And so like this seems to be part of among the many other things that that Dave Filoni is up to at Lucasfilm. Part of it is sort of like reclaiming some of these George ideas and sort of like, how can we how can we rework it slightly? So if we're not going to put it in like exactly the sequel series spot, where can we put a story of Maul and, you know, and a young woman who becomes his apprentice for a time until, you know, she doesn't because we know what is in the future for Maul. But like what parallels can we build between the Anakin and Soka relationship and this potential Maul and Devon relationship if this does work out that way? I don't know. Again, I've not seen past first two episodes. So it's possible that Devon's just like, no, I want to stay good. But I don't think that's what's going to happen because I'll be very boring. And so like what potential parallels are there for him and like how can, you know, if he has all this resentment and this this was this was potential rich texts for the Acolyte as well, a story that we're not going to get to follow forward. But like given how angry he is at what happened to him, but then he's using the tools of the person who like stole him and groomed him to, you know, forge his path forward. And again, he's like, tried to make this connection with Ahsoka, has tried to make this connection with Ezra. We've seen him like thirsting for with his brother, like seeing him thirsting for another and another who will be loyal to him, who will not abandon him on a trash planet or anywhere else, but will just like be unquestionably loyal to him. Will he find it in this young woman here or or is it forever not available to him, you know, in this lifetime? I don't know. I love Balls. Seasless and that is one of the fun things. This is an area where I think knowing the future is actually really enriching for the character, because it's like he can't quit. He can't stop trying to center that relationship in his life. And sometimes it goes away because, you know, when he made his brother, his apprentice, Savage Palpatine killed him and then basically left Ball alive to like torment him. That that duel of of Maul and Savage versus Palpatine in the same stretch of story where Maul kills Satine, like that is just such an incredibly harrowing stretch of of Maul's arc. The fact that he was weaned on the rule of two and thinks about that kind of like master apprentice role as many siths, but also, of course, as a jet I do as this like sacred thing, a way to submit yourself in that dynamic, a path to power, certainly for Maul, it's always and I think most of all in the Ezra stretch and rebels when he is trying to woo Ezra slash Jabba to be his apprentice. Does he want to sit holocron? Yeah, like, is there a very practical reason he's trying to do that? Yes. Is it all leading him to try to find Kenobi? Yes. Does it go horribly wrong for him? Yes. But does he also want to be chosen and worthy? Yeah. And like the way in Twilight of the Apprentice, he is not only relishing in the prospect of Ezra working with him and Maul leading Ezra to the dark side and being a a figure whose tutelage can lead somebody to in a very disturbing way, tap into a deeper, more fully realized sense of self. He's also like, this guy, Kane and Jarrus, pause. I'm going to go blind him and just remind everybody of House Superior. You have been doing it, Pashmore, but can we just like quickly go back and just say like he killed Satine? Yeah. He blinded Kane and Jarrus. What else is on his resume that we want to talk about? I mean, those are pretty significant things. I think Qui-Gon would love to enter the chat. Would like to be involved, perhaps. He's done a lot. Maul is done a lot. There's also like the role that Crimson Dawn plays in the future, in the in the rebellion, like Crimson, like his. As you said, Crimson Dawn predates his control of it, but his like wrangling of Crimson Dawn, Crimson Dawn then becomes integral to the rebellion as part of the larger sprawling story of how the Death Star plans, the second Death Star plans, you know, make their way. So like his, you know, his fingerprints are consequently all over everything. And again, there's just like he's done so much. Qui-Gon being very important, Satine being very important to you personally. And Jarrus being very, very important to Freddie Prince, Jr. But like that, I love Janon. That there is no coming back from that. So instead, it can only just be fun to watch him. And also it's fun, but it's also emotionally compelling because he's so vulnerable. He's so wounded and he's so sad that like for me, that's just undeniably interesting to watch. Yeah, I think it. I obviously normally would agree that there's no coming back from that. I think in Star Wars, there so consistently is that that's where it feels more like the fact that we just know that's not going to be the case for Maul is more clarifying than what would feel like a thick layer of moral like Anakin is responsible for like his final hours on the way out. Ben Solo, a lot of like mass murderers who get their moment in the sun. The sun or the twin suns on the way out for sure. And Maul did get a very peaceful embrace at the end. So that's something. Another party invite. Well, here's a way to make their big day feel even more special. With small shops in Etsy, you can discover thousands of original birthday presents like custom shakutri balls for the entertainers in your life or rare vintage teas for those still stuck in their grandeur from the personalized to the practical. We've got you covered with millions of active listings to choose from. Birthdays don't celebrate themselves. Shop at Etsy.com and discover your perfect find today. How is Janix working for you as a setting two episodes in this new planet? This kind of like hub of criminal syndicate activity, mid rim. You've got your city, you've got your surrounding jungles. You like a new planet? Sure. No, I mean, it's in its way, it's very Coruscant coded, you know, you've got levels and, you know, there are some chases inside of this that could take place on Coruscant if you wanted them to. But like I, the setting, the setting of the planet is less interesting to me than the tone of the world, which is they're doing a clear like noir sort of story line in that you've got this cat and mouse game between Lawson, voiced by the incredible Wagner Mora and and and Maul. You've got moments in these two episodes where each of them sort of like stands and regards an image of the other and just really is like, who is that guy? Yeah. You know, what's his deal? Very like Cyril Karn looking at Cassie Nandor, Hollow, the Bane of Andor. So, you know, and you get it on the soundtrack, you get this sort of like, you know, bluesy noir, horn music for Lawson as he sort of stalking around the streets. It's very Blade Runner in that sense because it's just like later like the way this sort of like high tech noir look of everything. And then just sort of the way in which they have artistically done it with like hand painting over some things and the the artwork that they've done on the backgrounds just gives it a different energy than the other animated series that we've seen. And that is just like to put such an artistic stamp on something. You know, because there's been a lot of critiques over the years of Star Wars animation and its and its look for a lot of people. They don't love how it looks. And I'm I think sometimes it can look amazing. And sometimes I'm just sort of like, this doesn't look that, you know, the way that like a spider-verse movie or just sort of like I'm watching. Art, you know. And so I think this is like not in the realm of spider-verse necessarily, but it's like inching in that direction where they're just like trying to take some artistic liberties with the watercolor bleed of the background. And all of that just makes it look to me like a rain soaked noir story. And that's really exciting to me. So I love that. It does look very wet and not just because everybody wants to fuck Maul because he's hot, you know, though also for that reason. I love the tracking evolution of the and obviously we have things like visions that are definitionally distinct because animation studios are coming in to put their specific visual stamp on Star Wars. But yeah, to track the evolution, you know, even inside of Clone Wars and then from Clone Wars to Rebels into Bad Badge and this I agree really feels simultaneously like it gives you that, oh, we're on a new planet. OK, could it have been this other place? I mean, it's not a familiarity, but a really specific sense. And like I think the styling of the lightsaber so far are reflective of that bleed. Yeah, yes. And like you because you have, you know, Maul's double bladed saber. I loved getting to your loss and say laser sword like fun little moments like that across these two episodes. But this is one of the most iconic things in Star Wars. And then to give it that, you know, we've seen things that look like this a little bit across the tails, shorts or even that really kind of like angry crackle of Kylo Ren saber. I was thinking about Kylo. Yeah. And the way that it's like the, you know, when you think about a bleeding kyber crystal and what that even is and what it tells you about the dark soul and the power that the character who's wielding that saber has willfully intentionally unlocked to manifest that visually in this animation with like the the paint style. But yeah, the sense that the the evil is bleeding out. It can't be contained. Looks so cool. And, you know, I love the kind of like Vader Rogue One esque dark hallway entrance against the pike. The second fight. The Mollie fight. The Mollie fight. No, but like his entrance in that first episode. I think that's one of the coolest entrances, like murder cloak, saber out, you know, dismounting of the spaceship. I saw some like visual comps around the Internet of like comparing it to like Obi-Wan on Mr. Defar and in the way that it is like a face on sort of like descending of the stairs. Like I can see the comp to me and I went back and rewatched it. This is like so Kylo and the Force Awakens coded for me. And that's just like another all timer entrance of a character. And so I I was like, this is what he deserves this. He's worthy of this. This is like a really sick entrance and he and I deserve it and Sam went were to serve it. So I really agree. You both deserve it. You do. Do you think the fact that everybody involved in the show keeps invoking heat is how we're going to finally get CR Christra and himself to watch some Star Wars animation? You think we can do it? I just I love I love heat, obviously. And I get it. I would just like to say this dynamic existed before heat and he didn't invent it. It might have codified it for a certain generation. But like I was talking to I was actually talking to Van and Rahm about this the other day because like I was talking about the Scarlet Pimpernel, which is like one of my favorite stories set during the French Revolution. But that is like a cat and mouse sort of, you know, to to opposing forces and circling each other's sort of story. And, you know, there's there's plenty of versions before that. But yeah, I get why he is invoked. It matters to a lot of people. Another another sort of like ancient kind of tale that we're really dealing with here is we're dealing with this sort of like Shakespearean archetype of of the like wounded bastard who's been who feels overlooked and abandoned. If you want to talk about like much ado or leer or whatever, like this is a character that shows up again and again in Shakespeare. I've just sort of like I'm not the chosen one. I have been cast out and abandoned and overlooked. And I think I deserve better. I am better than the chosen one over there. So like, why did this happen to me? And how can I plot and plan and break everything down to have my vengeance? And so I just love that. Yeah, sure. We're dealing with heat. Yes. We're also dealing with Shakespeare. And we're dealing with a lot of things. The Bard is always welcome. Will. Sierra Wash, it's not in a million years. Say probably nothing will ever do some. Yeah, he's missing out. He's missing out on the cat mouse front. Anything else about Lawson or that character set that you want to hit? So Wagner Mora is so exciting to me because I, you know, I love him in general. But honestly, the it wasn't Narcos. The thing that he did that really, really got me was pushing boots. The last wish where he played the wolf slash death and is genuinely one of the best animation voice performances I've ever experienced in my entire life. It was scary. It was so good. And so I was like really excited to see that he was the voice cast here. But Richard Iowate is like one of my favorite guys of all time. He's already voiced a droid in in Mandalorian. Like he's, you know, but he is built to voice droids. And so I'm excited for him because I know he's a Star Wars fan. So I hope that he enjoyed doing this. I just think he's so funny. He's one of the driest people alive. This is just kind of how he talks all the time. And so to get paid by Lucas home to do it. Great. I love that for him. But I like on a personal level, Richard Iowate, I'm just like this is this is for the the Anglophiles who who love him. So here he is. My favorite droid in the show so far through the the two part marriage spy bought your right. He's elite and iconic and hysterical. And the way that he talks shit to everybody that he's trying to best as he hacks into the systems is hysterical. But of course, the best moment was when he sort of like floated over to mall who scratched him on the head like he was greeting his pet. I just can't wait for more spy. Delightful. But it's quite as well. The design on spy, which is like one one light that looks like. And then the other eye looks like it's squinting. And then his like disc was like a jaunty little hat. And then he's just like so much attitude. I'm a huge fan of spy. And he does he does that. I just the Nedry from Jurassic Park, which like if spy bots a fan of Jurassic Park, he's cool with me. So Jurassic Park and a wig watch on a droid. I mean, extremely joke. My shit. I am really enjoying the two boots energy as well. And I love just like I'm interested so far in how quickly through these two episodes, we've gotten to glimpse a lot of key loss and dynamics. So like loss in a two boots as partners. You had the little moment like two boots bringing over the calf. And Lawson's like. Obviously guzzling caffeine couldn't be us, right? And two boots is doing this just because it's part of the ritual. He's a droid. He's not drinking the coffee, but it's part of what they share. But we see already the seeds of disagreement between them because two boots more than once in this episode is like, shouldn't we call in the empire? And Lawson's like, hit pause on that when Lawson is talking to the chief. He's like, we don't need to bring the empire into this yet. So he seems and this is great shorthand for us to be suspicious. Ante-empire to be anti-empire, to not one the empire on Janix. And that, of course, warms us to him. Well, immediately. Yes. And there's also just like ways in which he is working outside the system of the institution that he belongs to. Right. And so, like, again, when it comes to a potential, we're not so different. You and I conversation between Lawson and Maul like these are some great early breadcrumbs or something like that. Yes. Also some complicated family dynamics for Lawson. So that's another parallel. He has a son, Riley, who seems to be playing Space Lacrosse. They have said that this is called Boddkin can't wait to learn more. We get the uniform, we get the ball, etc. But their their moment is just like Lawson basically showing up apologizing for not being around, promising to be around more soon and take some time. And then immediately failing to go back to work. And this family photo, which is very Ezra coded, this photo that is like following a character around in a Star Wars animated story, Lawson has it on his desk. Riley's looking at it. The mom's not there. So we have more to learn there. And then there are vibes with Rena Sewell, this other crime figure. And the fact that we get not only the vibes between Rena and Lawson, the allusion to whatever their shared past is and something that has transpired between them, she is going to be connected not only to him on some personal level, it seems, but also has he goes to her. He's like, what's the shadow collective? Have you heard of it? He doesn't have the head of it lad on the shadow collective, but literally. He's like, have you heard of it? I haven't. Can you fill me in a little bit here? And she's got intel. So we got to see a lot actually about who is in Lawson's life and what that looks like as he attempts to find this person who's on an ISB must alert list. The photo is also that that photo also struck me as just like very noir coded as well. Like, yeah. So Rena Sewell as voiced by the icon Pamela Adlon, her daughter, Gideon Adlon is the voice of Devon. So this is like, I love when Star Wars does this where they're like, get your mom in. Like, it'll be great. Gideon Adlon is really interesting because I she was in this movie Blockers, which I love, and I thought she was so good in that. And I have just wanted more for her. And I've been waiting for her to like really burst on the scene. So I'm not saying that like voicing a character where you don't get to see the actress's face is really going to do it. But like, I'm excited to see her in the mix because there's like ways in which Devon. Like, both was and wasn't super interesting to me in these first two episodes. So I'm just like excited to see where this goes, because this is an actress that I really like. And so there's potential here. But like, you have to start her from a place of like, no, you're evil, you know, sort of thing. And then and then we'll see where we go from there. So let's talk about the apprentice search and Devon for another minute or two. Here we have Daki and Devon and they're used as full government name. I am going to call him Daki because I think he could do Daki. Daki, Daki, Daki, Daki. Though having Dennis Hayes burn at Star Wars is a thrill. This is a real treat. And that was really good. Instantly, like he said, half a word. I was like, yeah, my God. So that was fun. I texted you when Charlie Bushnell, who was Riley, who was in Percy Jackson, I was like, I know those weird. Buddy consonants anywhere. I know, I know this voice. Yeah. It's a great. It's really a great cast. It's a Christy. I'm in Topolus. We were just referencing one of his most iconic performances in Silicon Valley with this guy, Fox. So here he is again, like just really doing it. Various Ben-Ariot so far. It's just I liked when he was like turn around to Demis. Just so that he could look into his eyes as he killed him. That was some dark shit. That was really fun. The search for the apprentice. Mall can he's not just like, OK, I've stumbled upon you and this seems promising. It is we are introduced to Daki and Devon. We see that they are not like totally in alignment. Right. She's like, we got to eat, bro. She's like, I'm going to steal some fruit. He's like, we can rely on the kindness of strangers. She gets taken into custody. He's like, I've read Street Courney of Desire. It doesn't turn out well for Blanche, actually. So I'm not going to do that. Exactly. Mall is talking to Brooke like the one I seek is here. I see them clear the closer I get. Something else, our actions serve a greater purpose. Events are falling into place. She is a Jedi. I shall fashion her into a weapon which can help us destroy all those who have betrayed me, including Darth Sidious. You didn't need to say it. We knew, but it was helpful that he said it. So he feels this like magnetic galactic pull to her and to her power. Yeah. She recognizes him. This is fascinating when he opens her because she's like a cross in the cell across from Barrio. When he looks in and opens that door, she's like, Mall. Yeah. She's like, hot. The legend of all the pull of mall. I think all like in like the stranger in the acolyte, I think mall will take a bath or can you do that with robot legs? I'm not sure, but like emerge from a pool, you know, just to dazzle his apprentice. It's entirely possible. I, you know, the the the back scar appreciation stretch of acolyte felt very specific to our experience with Manny, but, you know, we we love. He hates a shirt. So he does. He loves a murder cloak and he hates a shirt. And part of the reason he loves a murder cloak is because it helps to conceal his identity and part of it is because it's just a real quick path to the open chest. It really is. You got to respect it. This, you know, the the is this character of Devon going to be the Darth Talon apprentice figure from elsewhere in the legends. And this idea of calling her a weapon, right? For fashion her into a weapon like a like this is my Talon. This is my claw that I will use to sort of like scratch at the emperor or the empire. Thinking about like these great names like Maul and Savage and stuff like that. I just like I'm excited. Devon cannot stay. Devon is like is I think a very bad Star Wars name. And I would like an upgrade for this young woman. Devon, do you want it to be Darth Talon? Yeah, I do want it to be talent. I think talent is better than Devon. I I I'm excited to see where the Devon stuff goes. And I think like I agree with what you said earlier. It seems unlikely to me that she that the way this story goes is that she's like, actually, I have that stays where it starts because, you know, we get this great line from Maul, which is part of the recruitment pitch to Devon, but is also sort of like the mission statement for not only why you do a Maul show, but why Filonia Kaur is so interested in continuing to explore more Maul in the first place. You're operating under the premise that I'm somehow the villain here, but it is not as simple as good and evil evil. The way that Sam said evil, I couldn't even hope with a thousand tries to get even close to how he how much sauce he put on evil. It was wonderful. So he's like, I can show you a pathway to the power that the Jedi didn't teach you. But he's also like, I'm not exactly who or what you think I am. And part of the way he frames that is everyone's bad on all sides. Right. So the idea that Devon starts by saying I have this assumption of you and ends there seems very flat and stagnant and unlikely. And especially because not only are we meeting her and and Daki on the run, but she is still with her former master. Moving away from the old and into the new and making that such an active choice. Like, yeah, she's on the run in an apparel of circumstance, but she does have somebody the closest somebody. And if this if the way this goes is that she has to choose Doc, Maul over Daki, that would be really interesting. And you could do and you could do. That would be devastating, or maybe he's not going to make it. And then in that even more desperate straight, that's when she goes to. Well, I mean, who knows. But then like the question is how if they do end up as master and apprentice, how long does that last? Or is this another just does the failure for Maul come immediately or eventually is the question? Right? Like, does he fail to actually win Devon to his cause or I think I think he's got her. I think he's got a winner and a loser. And then someone Vader, who knows, kills her. So it's going to be more of the Maul Savage, yeah, Molde there where he made his brother, his apprentice, and then Palpatine killed his brother. And that was pretty rough. And that's interesting. So you know, it's lost Savage and mother Talzin, his brother, his mother really recently in the cannon. So he's like in even for Maul, a very raw and wounded place where he is kind of like reconnected to the actual family that he was stolen away from and then lost them to. There's as many as right indoctrinated since you were a child. And it's just sort of like he's just talking about himself, which is, you know, we love a villain who projects. I mean, I'm not rooting for like a young woman character to show up, be lured to the dark side and then die to motivate a male character for his ongoing vengeance. That's not my fave, obviously. But like, I mean, is she going to like be lured to the dark side and then make a different choice and turn a different direction? Maybe. I don't know. That could be maybe a little bit more interesting. I would like to go back on my she's going to die. I never I never root for that. So who knows how many seasons she'll be around. She can die later. She can make a different choice later. Is there anything else about either a mall's history as an apprentice with Palpatine and then a discarded apprentice or his pursuit of his own apprentice, Savage, Ezra, etc. Savage in the past, Ezra in the future that you want to note here in terms of how we should be thinking about Mallon Devin or have we covered it all? I just think, you know, it's always seduction with him. And. Again, with love and respect to like Ikkodeodaki, like who's, you know, really are going to say it all every time I admire it. I mean, that's a great Star Wars name. Devin sucks as a Star Wars name. So I'm going to respect the effort. But if if if Ikkodeodaki is just sort of like croning around with a bit of pipe that is definitely also a lightsaber, you know what I mean, like that's that's not. And then you're like the other alternative is this hot, bare-chested horny guy. Yeah. Also croning around with a pipe, but in a different way. Am I right? I don't say I wouldn't say he's croning, but he's dragging around some serious pipe. And that's the. Oh, God, how does it work down there? Cybernetic, I guess. Metal. Yeah. So like, I guess I'm like done. Yeah. Does he like articulated? What did his mom do for him down there? You know, it's a great question. When Mother Talzin used her final burst of power before eventually being killed by Grievous to say, I'm going to restore your body and also your mind. Did she think about his dick and what he'd be able to do? I'd like to think, you know, as good mother should, I'd like to think that she gave him like a significant piece of pipe that can move. She wanted articulated her son to have a. Rich and full life. You know, so there's that. And to get revenge on Palpatine. Not sure if that's come up before. If she didn't. And he's like smooth like a candle down there. Then like that might explain some of his ongoing frustrations in life as well. I mean, he's gone through a few different bottom halves over the years, so he's not like bound to one forever. He switches it up. You think he ever goes back to the spider likes just for fun? I seem like a blast. You know, I'm like, it's a spice things up on a certain night. He's like, should I go full spider? I mean, baby. Yeah, you know. The syndicate. Is there any way the social break up from this episode is not us talking about malls, seems unlikely. It is created by the like. OK, well. Do you think that's what he meant when in two sons, he said to everyone, tell me, is it the chosen one? My, my day. Very powerful dick. Yeah, yeah, he will avenge us by the enemies. It's a red. God. Mall. And. Mandalore, we've covered it a little bit in terms of, you know, Rook is a character and the other commandos who are here, his history with Obi-Wan Satin. What it's a. Savor. We love the dark saber now and always. I do, as you know. I really, I still kind of can't get over how that how that all went in Mando. Not over that yet. That's a that's a that's a deeply painful and dramatic thing for me to reflect on. Dark saber and animation has been consistently great. The the the shadow collective, which Lawson is trying to learn about and we're getting some kind of helpful refresher exposition for people who aren't familiar with the Canada side of these two episodes. But I think one of the things that's just worth highlighting almost more conceptually is that as collective indicates, it is a collection of different factions. You have Maul with his night brothers, right? We see like Icarus and some other night brothers in the cast here as well. Scorn. Yeah. Great name. Again, this is. Maul, Scorn, Talon. The observation on the name for it's real. It's making me think of Kevin, really. Kevin Lannister, like really. Tywin. Devon. Yeah, Kevin Devon. It's a great note. But. The the Death Watch Alliance and things go badly between Maul and previous laws, they tend to go badly between either of those two characters and any other character. Night Owls, the Super Commandos, Black Sun, Pike, the Huts, Crimson Dawn, eventually joining the fold. The way that he now has still like strands of that. So does everybody who enters the story know the legend and lore and impact of the Shadow Collective know, but are Maul's Mandalorian Commandos still with him? Yes. Are the night brothers still there? Yes. Is he hunting down syndicate factions who have wronged him? Yes. Are the pikes already back in the story? Yes. Is Crimson Dawn a part of the Maul story across the years? Yes. So like the idea of, OK, the one kind of holy, the ultimate, the paragon, the ideal, the thing that he's chasing is the apprentice. Let me surround myself with like half a dozen other groups who will say I've chosen to follow you until I can get that other thing is such an interesting manifestation of Maul's kind of desperate need to be picked. To be chosen. Yeah. A real pick me energy for Maul. And like I think that his ability to sort of like whip up, you know, the Mandalorians, you know, in their revolution and all this sort of stuff like that is like he can command armies, forces during the Clone Wars, a Shadow Collective emerged, uniting much of the underworld. Imagine getting Black Sun, the pikes and the Mandalorian death watch to work together without killing one another. Someone did. Someone is Maul. Like he has this incredible ability, but it's not enough. He needs that sort of like one on one connection. You me, you die for me. Like that's that's it because he's been alone and he will be alone again. You know, so it's, you know, when you're when you're raised from a small child, brainwashed by the emperor, turns out it's not a great mental mentally healthy place to be. It's tough. Also, it's like it doesn't it's never sustainable. It's this kind of like amazing testament to his capacity. I am the person who could unite all those factions and then a reminder. I think it's like it's not subtle, but it is fitting that one of the the Night Brothers who's in the story near him here is Icarus. Maul is just always flying too close to the sun and his wings are melting and then he falls or he gets cut in half and falls. So like all of those factions meant to be aligned. There's a reason that he has to read through in this premiere here. The list of characters who have betrayed him, there's a certain aspect of it where it's like you allow that many people to be in a position to betray you as the empire has risen. We have all been made to suffer even the once mighty Jedi have fallen, but there are many who have prospered from my misfortune. The pikes, Crimson Dawn, Vario soon they will all pay starting with Demis. He thought he could take what was mine. You bring people close. You make an arrangement. We learn about a truce in this episode. And then like you get to the point where those guys are sitting at the table basically eating like chicken parm looked like and they're like, it was all delicious, intergalactic chicken parm. Oh, man. I don't want to know what those chickens look like. And the way in which his vengeance on the crime so you send to get once again aligns him with Lawson, who wants to clean the crime syndicate out of the city. So like, you know, how and what ways can they work together? And, you know, but I love how Lawson is this character who's like a laser sword. I know that. What's a Jedi? Like, OK, how how sheltered is this, you know, gum shoe here? So yeah, that's that is one of the things I'm interested in about Janix as a place and Lawson as a figure, like how distinct is he from the other people? Because like Rena and what she knows is that like just because she's in that world and has access information, are we supposed to be gleaning from that? That like this information hasn't reached this place because it is outside of the flow of events that have like defined the stretch of history or Lawson a little bit like, oh, I'm a little like out of the loop out of the mix. What's been going on exactly? We know we can tell from the way he talks about the empire that he knows enough about what the empire has quickly meant to be very wary. So yeah, I'm interested to to see how he kind of receives and processes what he learns over time and what that does. Guys, I don't follow the news. I was a little too busy being a bad dad and probably fucking around with Rita and a number of other sources. What's going on? I know two boots brings me all of the coffees. Yeah. But I still have to take the time to drink them. You know, yeah, he's busy. He is. Also that like mustache will maintain itself. You know what I mean? So great. How thrilled were they to be able to just slap on Academy Award nominee in the weeks leading up and the months leading up to this premiere? Great stuff. Anything we haven't hit Joe about these first two episodes about Maul's history, about the kind of like core dynamics, you know, we have Maul and his followers, Maul and his family, Maul and his nemesis, Maul and the idea of the master and apprentice as these kind of core framings that have defined the canon that we've already received and that is yet to come in the future, but we have also already received. It feels like we know a lot about how this guy thinks and operates and the mistakes he tends to make and the make and the desires that drive him, but also a lot to learn what he's going to do in these years. According to the way that Sam talks about it is he's like the Maul we meet in Clone Wars is not the Maul we meet in Rebels is not the Maul. You know, like that these are very different iterations in his view and that, you know, and it's true, like when he's abandoned on this planet or this planet, like, you know, and his horns grow unruly and stuff like that, like we're in a different, different territory, but like the question that he likes to bring up at interviews when he's asked sort of like, what are you most interested in exploring? He's like, I have questions like why if he's so angry at the emperor? Did Maul never reveal his identity to the Jedi? He's like, he could have called them up. He could have gotten into a space phone booth and called up the Jedi and been like, it's Palpatine, bye. And he never, ever did. So why did he never narc on Palpatine, the man who was responsible for the death of his mother and his brother and all these other, you know, and like abandoned him and humiliated him and all this other stuff like that. He knows and he could tell anyone. And he did it. So why? And so like, is that a, is that a loyalty question? Is that like, we're going to learn so much more about like what it means to be loyal? Like you could be resentful, but you have to stay loyal or, or, you know, what's the answer that I don't know. But that's that's a very interesting question. I love that about Sam, that he's just sort of like, here's an inconsistency seemingly to me. So how can we make we can tighten, like make this more watertight in terms of like who the psychological profile of this character. So this decision seems incongruous with his other attitudes. So how can we make it feel true? Yeah, that's exciting. I love, I love that he's thinking about it that way. And I'm eager to learn more about the answer to, like, I feel like there are kind of, I feel like it's likely there are a number of reasons, all of which feel like they are true to the spirit of Maul, you know, on the one hand, I think that's why the really clear emphasis in these two episodes of like, I am after Sidious, fuck the Empire, but also the Jedi, not super sorry that they're gone. And let me tell you, Devon, why that was never where you should have been in the first place and why you don't understand your power because you were indoctrinated by these losers, Maul's words, not mine. I don't think he wants the Jedi to win and to be victorious. There's that, but it's also like he needs to be the one to win. It's some of it is like probably about how he thinks about the Jedi. And some of it is about how he thinks about himself. One of the little aspects of the two-part premiere that I really enjoyed that we haven't talked about yet, actually, was like, I love that because Devon is their prisoner and she says that. And he's like, I'm going to make this a test, but also an opportunity. If you think you're my prisoner, that's disappointing because you can channel it. In your own mind. Yeah, if you want to leave, go tap into your power. And like it's so it's the story beats in the particulars are different, but it was so reminiscent to me of how he tried to corrupt and and woo Ezra by allowing by guiding Ezra to a place that suited Maul, but doing it in a way that was like made Ezra think because it was actually happening. I am gaining a deeper understanding of my own ability. Where is that understanding leading me? If I stick with Maul, not to a good place. But I can show you things. It is a test. I can show you things those squares will never show you. Exactly, including this triangular Cip hologram, yeah, let's go. And I will wear a shirt while I'm doing it. Think about it. No, no, it's just an offer. No, no, it's we have eight episodes left in season one. Four weeks are no promises on when we'll be checking back in. But I think our our hope is to check in around the finale. We'll see. We'll see how the season unfolds and we'll see if maybe we can have a chat with someone involved. You're getting spybot into the studio. Bring spybot on House of R. What do you think spybot would say on House of R? Would he just immediately break all of the equipment and take over Carlos's computer? Um, what if we could get both spybot and Rocky in the studio at the same time for you? Talk about a crossover event. My God, stay tuned to find out. All right, we will be back in a couple of days for Buffy season four part two. Correct. And then we will be back next week to continue our Christopher Nolan rewatch. Memento is the plan. After that, we'll see. Keep the emails coming. Let us know what you're thinking of mall shadow, Lord. Thank you. To you, Joanna, the biggest mall animated mall fan in the world. I didn't even tell you I wore my animated Obi-Wan shirt because, you know, it's worth observing here at the end. I guess that your great animated love and my great animated love are sworn rivals. What do you think that would be like? My real great animated love is the Fox Robin hood. So let's not get it twisted. Of course, that's established canon. That's just a fact. But malls are your side piece. Yeah. Yeah. You don't commit to mall. No, no, no, that's real. I really thought you were about to like quote Shorzy on me. No, no, you don't date slots. You just take them down. In case anyone has not seen Shorzy and is horrified. That's women talking about men and it's a quote. Just FYI. OK, thank you. Thank you to all our muse now and always. Can't wait to see what he gets up to in the next few weeks. Thank you to Carlos Chiraboga, Scott Lee, Jacob Cornette, C.T. Our junior M. Gopowl and Jomi Adenaron, the whole crew today. Our shadow collective. Yeah, amazing. We will see you in a couple days for Buffy Season 4 part two. Bye.