This is Spinal Tap w. Ned Brower and Niko Stratis

Hello, you, and welcome to You Are Good, a feelings podcast about movies. Today we are talking about This Is Spinal Tap and we are talking about it. With Ned Brower, I am one of your co-hosts today, Alex Steed. I will soon be joined by today's special guest co-host, Nico Stratus. You Are Good is exactly what it sounds like. It's a feelings podcast about movies. This is what that means. We talk about movies as a means of understanding who and how we are in the world. We are not film critics. We are people who are trying to get to the bottom of how we feel and why we feel that way by way of talking about these movies. This Is Spinal Tap is, of course, a 1984 American mockumentary comedy film directed by Rob Reiner. In his feature directorial debut, Christopher Guest, Michael McKinnon, and Harry Shearer play the members of the fictional heavy metal band Spinal Tap. Of course, we are talking about this movie because we were going to actually, it's interesting, we were going to talk about this movie as our last movie of the year with Ned. I'll get to how Ned came about as a guest shortly, but we're going to talk about this movie with Ned. And then obviously, Rob and Michelle Reiner were tragically murdered. And so we were very much looking forward to talking about some of Reiner's movies. And so here we are doing just that. Ned Brower. Ned Brower is many things. Many, many things. I just look at Ned is a musician, drummer and vocalist in the Los Angeles Rock Quintet. Rooney, thank you so much, Wikipedia.org. He's also a model and an actor. He is in The Pit, which has a second season coming out soon. Thank goodness, we love The Pit. And so this is how that happened. I was on What Went Wrong talking about the Iron Giant because I love What Went Wrong and I love the Iron Giant. And Ned was listening to that show and he heard that I had a show about the OC. And Ned's like, I was on the OC once in my capacity as a guy who's in Rooney. So he went and listened to that episode in which Nico and I talked about Rooney being on the OC. And then he reached out and was like, hey, I'd love to talk with you guys. I was like, all right, come on, talk with us about the OC and maybe talk with us about a movie so we can talk about that and you are good. So anyway, if you want to hear more from Ned about his time on the OC, you can check out Nico's and my show, The OC Again, which is fun. It's mostly about the OC as a rewatch show, but it's really just a matter of looking back at that cultural moment, kind of diving in to all that. So I think you will enjoy it if you want more Ned Brower or if you want more Nico or you want more me. Speaking of Nico Stratus, Nico Stratus is an award-winning author from Toronto by way of the Yukon. Her work is everywhere. Nico's work is everywhere and she is the author of The Dad Rock that made me a woman. We love Nico Stratus. So very, very much. And of course, like I said, I co-host a show called The OC Again with Nico where you can hear more Nico, more me and more Ned on this week's episode. How are you doing? What's going on in your world? How are you feeling? How have the holidays gone? How are the holidays going? I had a lovely weekend with family. I have all these younger cousins and I had just a delightful time hanging with all them. We had a really, really great and lovely and fulfilling time. So I'm very grateful for that. We were like, let's just have it be us. Let's just get the cousins together. And it was really a remarkable time. Very grateful for that. And I decided that I'm going to just chill this holiday. I can't go anywhere. I've been going nonstop for the prior 360 days of the year, whatever, 358 days of the year. So I need to take it easy. That's what I did. I understand that this can be a difficult time for folks. It's going to be a trying time. I'm glad that you're here with us, where we're here to have some gentle conversations, of course. And yeah, glad to be doing that with you. However you're feeling, whatever you're up to, whatever you did, whatever you're doing, don't forget that you, my friend, are good. You are good. The Feelings podcast about movies is made possible with and by your support. Thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions. You get extended cuts. You got bonus episodes. We've got a bonus episode coming up real soon about the movie Stand By Me, which I recorded with my great friend, River Butcher. We were in a rush to get things recorded about Rob Reiner, because obviously we were feeling the shock. Recorded this great episode about Stand By Me with River. I was going to have it in the main feed. I said something about it in discord. So I was like, haven't you already covered Stand By Me? And he was like, oh yeah. This is after we recorded it. It just really goes to show what talking about 52 movies a year will do to your brain and your memory. It can cook it, can cook your brain and your memory. But anyway, our conversation is very, you know, kind of, it's a different conversation. It's a different chat. So even though we've covered the movie already in the past and the main feed, I think that this is a, so to be a slightly different approach. It's a warm, you know, warm, vibe, Z chat. I think you'll enjoy it. And speaking of that, we have another Reiner episode coming up with the Princess Bride in a couple of weeks. So we're going to keep that train going. Anyway, thanks so much for everyone who supports us. We can't do this without you and we appreciate everything that you do to help us out. It really means the world to us that we get to make this indie media in a world that is hostile to indie media. Means the world to us. Please join me in supporting Palestine Children's Relief Fund or any kind of way that you're able to support materially our friends in Gaza and in Palestine in general. It's obviously there's just, it's not good over in those parts right now and anything you can do to help is great. All of our struggles are interlinked and that's why we do what we can. Before I dive in to this episode, I want to note that I talk in this episode about Martin's Corsese's reported response to how he is portrayed in this is spinal tap by way of the Marty DeBurgey character played by Rob Reiner in that case. I just wanted to offer this upfront so that we have, you know, you can hear what he has to say right now. And this was something that he wrote for the New York Times and it feels, you know, it feels appropriate since we're doing a little morning around here with regard to Rob Reiner. So, I'm going to go ahead and score CZ for the New York Times. This piece was called Rob Reiner was my friend came out on Christmas. Rob Reiner was my friend and so was Michelle. From now on, I'll have to use the past tense and that fills me with such profound sadness, but there's no other choice. Rob and I got to know each other in Los Angeles in the early 1970s. I had a good friend in New York named Bill Minkin, a legendary comedian, radio host and actor. I got to know a few of my pictures, including my very first feature. Who's that knocking at my door? Through Bill, I got to know George Mamoli, also in comedy. George played Joey in Mean Streets and Nikki in New York, New York. When I moved out to LA, I started going to get togethers at George's house. These were stand up comedy salons, all night affairs. David Steinberg and Dick Gregory came by quite a bit. That's where I met Rob and his wife at the time, Penny Marshall. Rob and I were both Eastern transplants in a way. He and his family had moved to Los Angeles when he was young, but he was born in the Bronx and lived in New Rochelle as a child. Rob came from New York's show business royalty. His mother Estelle was a wonderful singer and actress, and his father Carl came out of Sid Caesar's Your Show of Shows alongside Neil Simon and Mel Brooks, who later became his partner in the brilliant 2000 year old man routine. This was 100% New York humor, and it was in the air I breathed. I should say there were several different improvisational groups that were a part of that scene at the time. George's outfit with Bill Saluga and Michael Mislove, Patty Deutsch, and Fred Willard was the ace trucking company. Rob was more connected with the credibility gap, satirists on alternative radio with a sharp political countercultural edge. Just to give you an idea of where they were at, one of their broadcasts was called J. Edgar Hoover, Too Proud to Die, Too Dead to Live. Michael McKeehan, Harry Scherer, and Albert Brooks were also part of that scene. Right away I loved hanging out with Rob. We had a natural affinity for each other. He was hilarious and sometimes bitingly funny, but he was never the kind of guy that would take over the room. He had a beautiful sense of uninhibited freedom, fully enjoying the life of the moment, and he had a great barreling laugh. When they honored him at Lincoln Center, McKeehan did a bit, which was a great parody of solemn official tribute speeches. Before he got to the punchline, Rob left so hard you could hear it through the auditorium. When we met at the time at George's house, the song by war, The Cisco Kid, was all over the radio. Rob and I were talking and he casually told me, you know, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine. Really, I said. I didn't know he was real. Oh yeah, he was a friend of mine. Wow. Yeah, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine. Hmm, I wondered. Maybe he knew Duncan Ronaldo. We kept talking for quite a while before he finally broke it to me that he was kidding. I mean, pretty pathetic. The comic had to explain the joke, but Rob was so good that he had me in the palm of his hand. We stayed in touch over the years and watched each other's movies. My own favorite among his pictures is Misery, a very special film, beautifully acted by Kathy Bates and James Cohn. But then of course, there's This Is Spinal Tap. Somehow that picture is in a class of its own. It's an immaculate creation and a big part of the greatness of that film is Rob himself, as director and as actor. When I was casting The Wolf of Wall Street, I immediately thought of Rob to play Leonardo DiCaprio's father. He could improvise the best. He was a master at comedy. He worked beautifully with Leo and the rest of the guys and he understood the human predicament of his character. The man loved his son. He was happy with his success, but he knew he was destined for a fall. There's that wonderful moment as John Favreau explains to Leo that he can get out relatively unscathed if he just walks away from his company before the SEC has a chance to charge him with violations. The look on Rob's face as he realizes that Leo is hesitating and that he ultimately won't stop is so eloquent. You get all the money in the world, he says. You need everybody else's money? A loving father mystified by his son. I was moved by the delicacy and openness of his performance when we shot it, moved again as we brought the scene together in the edit, and moved as I watched the final picture. Now it breaks my heart to even think of the tenderness of Rob's performance in this and in other scenes. What happened to Rob and Michelle is an obscenity, an abyss, and lived reality. The only thing that will help me to accept it is the passing of time. So like all of their loved ones and their friends, and these were people with many, many friends. I have to be allowed to imagine them alive and well. And that one day I'll be at a dinner or a party and find myself seated next to Rob. And I'll hear his laugh and see his beatific face and laugh at his stories and relish his natural comic timing and feel lucky all over again to have him as a friend. Hello, Nico Stratis. Hello, Alex Steed. How is it going over there, up there? Up there, up here in... North of here. In Toronto City. It's going great. Everything is fantastic. It's Christmas in three days. We went to the mall today. We got a hot dog outside and by part of it I both felt sick immediately afterwards. You know, we're living the dream. We are joined by someone who urgency is a part of their job. So let's... No, we normally chatter for hours on end before we introduce anybody. Let's bring Ned in right now. What do you say? Let's do it. Ned Brower, hello. Hello. How are you doing? Welcome to You Are Good. Thank you. Good to be here. It's a fun podcast. Oh, thank you so much. First of all, Ned, tell us your jobs. My jobs? All my jobs? You want a full resume? Yeah, we need a quick CV. Tell us the job you're reporting from and the job people can see you on television about. Okay, my name is Ned Brower and I have three jobs. I'm an actor on a television show, HBO's The Pit season one and season two, which we were just finished shooting or I just finished shooting. And I work as a real life emergency department nurse, urgent care nurse as well. And then I also am a musician and I play drums and I sing vocals and write songs for a variety of projects and stuff. Fantastic. I can't imagine someone who is better poised to come and talk to us about the ins and outs of being in a rock and roll band. Yes. When you mentioned this one, I was like, I mean, this was one of the first ones on my list. I think you asked me to make a list of 10 and I really was happy that no one had done it and that you wanted to do it. And at first I was like, wow, they just put out the sequel and I'm not sure if it was kind of covered on a bit recently. But then when I thought about it, I was like, no, we have to talk about it more because I do feel uniquely qualified to talk about this movie. And we agreed before the obviously tragic Robin Michelle Reiner news. So I'm really glad that we're talking about this movie with such reverence and experience at this time. It's kind of perfectly timed. It is. I know I couldn't believe when the news broke last week and we had just talked about doing this movie. So I agree. I think it's great to give this movie the attention that it deserves because it's something very special. Nico. Yes. What is your relationship with Rob Reiner? With Rob Reiner? Well, it's funny. He has just been an omnipresent person in my life, knowing and unknowing. I was born in the 80s and I sort of grew up in the 80s and 90s. So there's a lot of projects that he's involved in that you just kind of don't know about, right? Because when I was younger, I didn't know, I don't know who's directing things or sort of that sort of stuff. I never really connected to media that way. So I never really realized how much of a formative part of my life he was for so long until I was older. And I was like, oh, okay, all these movies and all these things he's a part of. And for a while, I just thought of him as this, like, as almost like a character actor who just shows up every now and then. I didn't realize, you know, how important he was and how much he had done and all these things until I was older. And then you realize, like, oh, my whole life has sort of been formed by this person, except for, and I was going to tell you this before we started recording. I'll say it now. I was like, save your shocking news. When I watched Spinal Tap two days ago was the first time I had ever seen this movie. Oh, that's fine. I feel like I somehow missed Spinal Tap. And it was like, it's one of those movies I knew because, you know, I know every joke in this movie, but I just never actually watched the whole thing until like three days ago when my partner was away for the day. And I was like, it was funny because when I told her we were doing this movie, she was like, that is the movie that every because my partner is also a musician. And she's like, whenever music guys talk at me about music, they will talk at me about Spinal Tap. So I just don't want to watch that movie anymore. So I waited until she was away to watch it. And then I was like, I started watching. I was like, oh, I've never seen this before. I thought I had. Of course, because you know every joke. But it turns out I've never actually seen it. I didn't know that Rob Reiner was an actor in the movie until he watched it three days ago at age 43. Like, and I've been involved in music for a long time and I've just completely missed this movie. So that's my relationship. Oh my gosh. I always reluctant to be like, oh, you haven't seen this movie because it's totally understandable how things miss people. It is interesting that you of all people haven't seen this movie considering you are like a music and culture critic of no in heft. I'm curating a series next year at Hot Docs at Theatre here in Toronto. I'm curating a series of music documentaries next year. And I've never seen Spinal Tap until three days ago. Of Rockumentaries, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so that's it is a very funny moment for me of realizing that I've never actually seen this incredible story, you know, historic film. Well, I'm so glad we're all doing it together. Ned, before we dive into the movie itself, what is your relationship with Rob Reiner's oeuvre? I think I had a similar experience last week. It was like when he died, I knew I was a huge Spinal Tap fan, you know, obviously, and he's in the movie. So to me, like that was the first thing that came to my mind. But then when I kind of looked at his filmography, I had the same reaction of just like there's just so many great movies that were such a part of my life. You know, Princess Bride being one of those stand by me is just like one of my all time favorites. I when I saw that one, I was like, I should have put that on my list of 10 that you asked for because that definitely makes my 10. So yeah. And it's just so interesting how he also directed in all these different genres, you know, from like a horror movie like Misery to, you know, these kind of romantic comedy with Harry Met Sally and just all these things. And so that was my take away. It's just like what a huge contribution to film and to culture that he made. Yeah. People forget that Castle Rock Entertainment produced Seinfeld. Right. Like this is a person who's like stamp on all of the popular culture, like one in three pieces of popular culture that we took in and one way or another. He was like in and around. Not surprising because also his dad essentially invented American television in a lot of ways. So yeah, we go much deeper into sort of Rob Reiner stuff and our parallel conversation that's going to come out about Stand By Me. And I'm sure this will come up throughout this episode. Niko, I had a very similar relationship with him in that, you know, for a guy who knew again, who like I knew all the Ghostbuster actors names when I was like three, like knowing who was in a movie was like really important. Knowing who made him. I knew like who Ivan Reitman was when I was like a toddler. Yeah. Like that stuff was all so important. Somehow I missed who Rob Reiner was in relation to all of these movies for a long time. And I always just loved seeing him on screen. Like I love the movie, not a great movie, but I love the movie. Bye bye love that has Paul Reiser in it. Yeah, sure. Because Rob Reiner is in it as like a character actor playing a radio therapist. And he was just always someone who like I always felt every time he was on screen, I was like, oh, yeah, this guy's here. He's kind of like a bizarro Tarantino in that because like Rob Reiner could have easily made himself such a bigger presence and everything he did. And the fact that he often chose to not like you would never know that he was involved in a thing unless you actually, you know, read his name and the credits and sort of piece that together. And, you know, there's a lot of people that would do a lot of this stuff and they would make sure that there's some moment in the film where they are a focus in some way. And I think it really speaks to his like sort of like creative energy and desire and this and making so many different things of like, I don't always need to be, you know, play a bit part in the film or to be a focus or whatever. Like because it's not about me. It's about this thing that I'm creating the story that I'm telling and like, you know, really sort of speaks to somebody's creative spirit that it's not about them. It's about the thing that they're making in some way. And even as a character actor, when you see him in stuff is like, he's such a good actor, but he's so good because he's playing to the scene, not sort of trying to draw attention to himself in that way. Like I'm trying to talk about acting in a way that like, I don't know because I'm not an actor, but just like every time I see him in a thing, it's such a joy to see him and it never sort of feels like it's drawing attention to be like, oh, that's Rob Reiner. Because often when there's guys like that, you're like, oh, it's so and so, but it's never feels like that with him. It just feels natural. He looks like a guy that would be in every any scene and anything you watch. And like, you know, if Rob Reiner was in this, I wouldn't be surprised. Ned, before we dive into the plot, can you just tell us a little bit about your like being a professional musician, like what touring looks like? Just like how many people are musicians? What is your musicianship, professional musicianship look like? Well, I grew up in Seattle and sort of the, you know, the grunge boom and always loved music and then started sort of starting my own band. So I was a young teenager and that became like my primary hobby early on. And so, you know, I went off to film school and played in bands in Texas when I left Seattle and then moved to LA and joined a band here in LA. And that was Rooney that then got signed to a major label. And that took me on like a lifelong adult, you know, professional journey in music. I think we did Rooney, I was in Rooney for about 12 or 13 years. Touring all over the world and all of these exact same environments and situations that we will get to talking about in the movie Spinal Tap. You know, Rooney broke up in 2012 or 13. I've just continued to play. I've worked with Mark Barron, the podcaster of the last few years, you know, doing a kind of just fun band where we play at Largo and helped him make some music for some of his specials and have made music for cartoon shows and make music for pleasure and all kinds of things. So music's like my primary hobby and it's been my primary job as well, I would say. And it's still my favorite of all my jobs, all of which I enjoy doing. But music really, for me, is what gets me the most excited, I think. Right on. Well, let's get into what this is Spinal Tap is. So we have filmmaker Marty Divergy, who's played by Rob Reiner, who's making a documentary about the English rock band Spinal Tap. I love that he made them English with varying amounts of accent success from everybody. With no English actors as near as I like, I don't think either of the primary cast or English. Are they like, is Christopher Guest English? No, he sort of has an English vibe, and I don't think he's English. No, no, not at all. He actually has like a really, if I had to venture to guess, I'd say he's from the Midwest, based on hearing him talk. Sure. Christopher Guest Boys. But who knows, I'm sure that someone will let me know that's very wrong. But yeah. So yeah, so Spinal Tap is going on tour for the first time in a very long time, I think since like the mid-70s. Nico, I've talked a wild amount to you about the pop arena videos, about the history of Nickelodeon that I'm obsessed with. And I hadn't realized until watching those videos about the history of both like the monkeys and the monkeys television show and the reruns of the monkeys television show, that the idea of like reviving a band that hadn't been around for a long time was like moderately new as of the early 80s. Sure, yeah. Usually like a band just died. Yeah, they just went away. You know, and I've just lived my entire life knowing that on a long enough timeline, a band will come back to life. Yeah, if you wait, the Rolling Stones will come back, despite how many times they say we're never doing this ever again. Like I've been alive long enough to read about the final Rolling Stones to her more times than more than they were ever like an active band. It's yeah, it's why it was like a real phenomenon where you had a guy, and I get from a total aside, when the monkeys went back on tour, the guy who licensed the band's name in order to do it, it was such a rare thing that the label was like, nothing's going to happen with this. And they only charged a $3,000 licensing fee for the monkeys because they're like, you're going to lose a ton of money. And I think the guy made a quarter million dollars in 1982. So he did it right. So anyway, Spinal Tap is going on tour to promote their new record, Smell the Glove. Really fantastic imagery. Incredible album title. Like I love how straight it's played because you never fully like even me watching it, knowing it's a mockumentary, it really skirts the line between like being very earnest and being very like this is clearly a joke, you know, an album called Smell the Glove by a glam rock band that's also at once was like a hippie band and was like all these other ideas is very like you could see it, but also it's like it's so clearly a joke. Yeah, the tour of them going from being the hippie band to like being a mod band, to being like a glitter and glam band, to being like kind of like Iron Maiden is fantastic. I mean, it sort of feels like it is funny of like, you know, bands sort of struggle to find what their sound is going to be, you know, and at any given point, it could feel like, like, like in your experience in being in a band, like, is there is these moments of like, we're sort of playing in this style, we're going to see if it fits and slowly over time, we're going to evolve into our sort of ultimate form. Like, does that feel, you know, how like, like for Rooney, for instance, did it sort of evolve into what it ultimately became? I think that totally speaks. I mean, you know, when we made our first record, it was this one thing we've been doing for a while. As we got popular, by the time it was time to make our second record, we came back. And it happened organically while we were on the road writing new songs, but like we started getting into glam rock and other sort of stuff. So by the time we came back to make a second record, it was a disaster because we made a whole record that we thought was great, that sounds like us. And when the label heard it, they're like, what is this? Like, this is so wrong and not what we want to put out and not what we envision for you. So I do think it's normal for music groups that are around, you know, over time to try new things, inevitably get into some new influence that'll influence, you know, influence your own music for better or worse. So I do think that strikes true. And sometimes I don't love like when, you know, like a movie like Dewey Cox spoofs every single period ever made of music doesn't feel real to me, but it never bothered me with the spinal tap because it came out in the early 80s, you know, they would have been around through those periods. And that's what was in fashion. So it kind of makes sense that they would have been this early mod group and then this hippie thing and then moving into this glam rock metal thing. Yeah, it's like pre-internet proof, like with Trent Reznor and like the flock of Seagulls-esque band or like when ministry was also like whatever, like a weird Halloween pop band, like you could get away with stuff before people had proof of what you did before. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or there's the exceptions like a radio head that was like a very much a guitar rock band. And by the time they put out Kid A, it's like people are, you know, that wanted to hear the rock stuff were like shocked and disappointed. Of course, time has been kind to all their body of work, you know, but you can see how you could try on these different genres or sounds. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny with radio head. There is everybody's different. Like you either like, I remember watching the video for just on much music and being like, okay, so this is what this band sounds like. And yeah, there's people that only know Kid A or whatever. And it's like, oh, we have very different relationship to this specific band. Sure. Yeah. Like in my head, they sound like, okay, computer. And then everybody else's head, they sound like something like something into highly different. Yeah, for sure. So just so we know who we're talking about throughout the rest of the episode, the characters are David St. Hubbins, who's played by Michael McKinnon, his childhood friend, Nigel Tufnell, who is played by Christopher Guest, and then the bassist who's played by Harry Shearer, Derek Smalls. I watched the sequel right after watching this today. Yeah. And Michael McKinnon and Christopher Guest aged into the same guy. And it makes differentiating them really difficult throughout the movie. Like they, I, and then, and then I rewatch part of, I rewatched the original just to sort of get highlights before doing this. Yeah. And they're uniquely different people. But like, yeah, and their age with the wigs and stuff, they're kind of the same guy. I just recently watched Better Call Saul. So it's funny to go from the, it's the brother from Better Call Saul into like the younger version of him in his final tap. Like you couldn't find two very different kinds of guy. Yeah. Right. So for real, my whole intro to him was, I didn't realize he was a comic genius, you know, SNL God writer, et cetera. It was Lenny of Lenny and Squiggy from Laverne and Shirley reruns. That was my Michael McKinnon when I was a kid. Well, it's like, I always have this, like, I don't think we should separate people by generation. I think it's whether or not you think of Bob Oden, Kirkress, primarily a comedic actor or a dramatic actor. And that's sort of how I could tell how old somebody is. That's interesting. Yeah. For sure. Or now an action actor, depending on what your, or now an action guy. Yeah. The documentary is showing their early days, as we said earlier, when they were the originals, and then they couldn't, they couldn't be the originals because there was another originals. The original originals, that whole run of like, we were the originals, and then there was another original. So then we were there, there were the original originals. And like that whole run back and forth was so fucking funny. The new originals, I think they say. Yeah. So it became the regulars. Yeah. All the names. Yeah. So good. The original originals became the regulars. It's so good. I presume if someone is going in as an enthusiastic, this is final tap fan, or even just someone with tertiary knowledge of this, we know that the legacy of this style of movies continued later by Christopher Guest with all of his films. And I feel like a mighty wind is probably the closest to this because it is ultimately like a music documentary. And it like, it features into the era of the Greenwich Village folk guys that these guys supposedly were when they were discovered by Marty at the beginning of the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think this works better than almost any movies that have come after it because I think there's something about the fact that this was, I know, probably wasn't the very first time anyone made a fake documentary, but because it was such a novel thing still, it's so rooted in reality. Like, there really is no break. And another thing that they do in this movie that I noticed rewatching it is like, they don't do a ton of interviews to camera to get the exposition across. Right. They really filmed it very naturalistic. So running gun. Totally. You know, so they're talking to each other, you know, and it's fly on the wall, cinema, varieté, you know, like guy on the side of the stage, overhearing conversations and stuff as opposed to like the office. And this thing we've now seen a million times where people are talking to the camera, you know, in an interview setting, there's a little bit of interview footage, but largely it's like a lot of real kind of action that takes place in a real rock and roll setting, which I loved. The thing I was really struck by watching it, watching it for the first time as an adult was that no one is ever like you said, no one's ever really like, there's never that knowing wink to the camera. And I was reading a little bit about it just to be like, wanted to read like, did people get sort of hoodwinked by it? And a lot of people went out to try to find their records because they just thought this was a real band. And I think it speaks to like the earnestness with which they approach it and how like it makes it so much funnier that they're never like, they're never hitting you over the head with like, this is a joke, this is a joke, this is a joke. It's very reminiscent of like, I remember watching that far too long Peter Jackson Beatles thing where they're, you know, they're all recording in that, in that theater and it's, but it's so much of like the interesting parts of it are these sort of captured moments of people off that aren't playing to the camera. They're just in conversation. And it really works really well in that way because it never is striking you over the head with like, it's a comedy, get it? Like it sort of allows you to just sort of lose yourself in the world that's created. Yeah. It feels like what we're talking about, the talking to the camera was like something, it's like from the confessional from the real world, is it like feels like very much like kind of second MTV creation. Right. But yeah, like we weren't doing that before reality television. So I agree. I hadn't thought of that. This really just truly feels like a documentary in which they are capturing action as it goes to the point where like, I'm with you, Nico, where like, I came into this movie late and I, when I was a kid, thought Spinal Tap was a band. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was really common from what I understand when the movie came out. Yeah. That people were confused, like, okay, it's a documentary. These guys are so stupid. And like, why did they make a documentary about a band like no one's even ever heard of? So people were like, legit confused. Yeah. Trying to find these records that kind of sound a little bit like Kisp, but not quite. Yeah. Yeah. So they go from that era to they have a flower power anthem called Listen to the Flower People before they go into performing heavy metal. We learn the beginning of their tragic history with drummers. Stumpy dies in a bizarre gardening accident. I love that this, that Stumpy is played by Ed Begley Jr. So great. Yeah, I know. It's so good. I'm putting this episode out tomorrow for this new show. I'm doing Los Angeles DeMistified where I'm looking back like 1975 during the holiday season. And one of the musical acts that's posted at the troubadour that's playing was the Roder-Ruder Good Time Christmas Band opener Ed Begley Jr. Just solo. Yeah. Just Ed Begley Jr. ring it up, I guess. Well, that's what that Ed Begley thing always gets me because that's one of these things where you can see they almost brought attention to this thing that became a trope that now we've seen since. If you think about like Weezer Buddy Holly video years later and Nirvana and Bloom video later, it was doing that same thing where it's spoofing the nerdy guy in glasses and that black and white grainy Ed Sullivan show style, but they just did it so well. And Ed Begley is playing along. They do such a good job of making the actions on the chords and the drums for the whole movie like perfect. And the sound design is very, very real and they used real musicians. But with the exception of that scene and it's like, you know, he's playing, but it's not really locked in. But that makes sense because that's how those 60s videos were because they just did playback. And he does this fill and Ed Begley stops and looks up and shrugs his shoulders and, you know, he's so nerdy and it's like perfect. Yeah, I think he fixes his glasses. I've encouraged it before and I've heard from people who've taken me up on the advice and I'm going to do it again. If anyone is looking for a feel good audiobook specifically at the end of the year, Ed Begley's biography is amazing. And he reads it, which is the reason I'm recommending the audiobook specifically. Oh, interesting. Dude has a wild lived history. Oh, I can only imagine. Yeah. I was very surprised on watching this that there wasn't more like musician cameos. The whole time I was like, this feels like a movie that like loud and wainwright the third would show up in or something like that. You know, sure. And I was really surprised. And I think, yeah, if you made this movie 20 years later, it would have been a totally different thing. But there's not a lot of like musician cameos. All the cameo parts are like, like Howard Hussman is in it and stuff like that. And it's like, okay, so they're sort of adjacent, but there's never like, it is never like winky winky with the cameos even. And like all the different drummers are just sort of like are disposable because they're supposed to be disposable in the history of the band. I love that about it. I mean, I haven't seen the sequel. I just came to streaming. So I'm going to go watch it tonight. But I did see the trailer and it was like Elton John. I was like, Ooh, you know, that kind of stuff's for me outside of the world of what they made the first movie. And you just kind of touched on that. That's my only complaint really about the new movie outside of the like everything to me, it works. It's not great, but it's good. Yeah. But there are a lot of like big name cameos throughout it where you're like the gravity of the cameo becomes the focus of attention and not necessarily like the dynamic. But yeah, that's I mean, that's a great point. Yeah, it's like just all specific comedy nerds from 1981 that are in this movie, not anybody who's making music. So again, it's like a kind of a classic. There is a plot to this movie, which we'll we'll chat more about. But this is like just vignettes again, like this is just putting these guys in scenarios and watching them respond, such as when, you know, Nigel shows his guitar collection. The one that's so expensive, you can't you can't even point at it. Don't even look at it. Don't even look at it. Don't even point at it. And of course, his custom amplifier. It was really funny to take because so many of the bits from this movie are like, this movie is so quoted and so quotable that like putting it all in context, like made those jokes so much more funnier than they are because it's just like the turning it up to 11th thing has been so ubiquitous for so long. They finally getting to see it and see it delivered so flatly and so casually was so funny because it is just like the comedy is played so well that you could earnestly see like I could see a music guy being like, we made these special lamps. We made them turn the volume knob up to 11. Like it's so earnest. It's so funny. Yeah. It's great. And it's, you know, that's one of those jokes that the movie for me has so much layering to the humor. You know, we I remember a guy we were on tour with asked another guy. I was out on the road. And he's like, you ever seen Spinal Tap? He's like, Oh, yeah, I've seen it like one or two times. He's like, you haven't seen Spinal Tap because it takes like a lot. You can tell how much somebody's into the movie. If you say, what's your favorite joke in the movie? If it's turning to 11, that's your very base level joke. But it goes so much deeper than that with more watches. So there's the stuff that's like the big broad jokes that everyone knows. But then it's the small, simple stuff and the sad moments that are so funny to me. And some of the side characters that fill out the world that are so realistic to what my actual rock experience was like, that makes me just brings me joy. Yeah. In addition to the big funny stuff. Sure. And there's this phenomenon too, that I would love for you to speak to Ned, where, you know, I know and am friends with a lot of people who, because of how attention and commercial attention works in specific forms of artistry, specifically in Los Angeles, people get a lot of power quickly when they're still very young. And so like, we have these guys who are essentially middle-aged guys in Spinal Tap, right? Who just stopped aging at 19. You know, like they got attention, they got money. And they, you know, of course you would think that bringing an amp up to 11 has more significance than just sort of like changing the overall wattage. Because you're like 19 years old with a lot of money and actually 40. Yeah. Yeah. You're coddled. And so you get sort of stunted and your growth gets stunted in some way. That totally makes sense and speaks to these characters who now that they're losing their power, they don't really know how to operate in a real-world setting. Yeah. Yeah. They no longer know how to like what to do with themselves when they're no longer like on a stage to a like arena of screaming fans. Right. Watching the part where Nigel's trying to figure out what to do with the small bread in the sandwich. Because like, I remember talking to a friend who, you know, is in a band of note who had been touring for 12 years straight, right? He was telling me about how stressful his just like regular non-touring day was that day because he couldn't figure out like how to organize the tasks in his day from like a just like general time management perspective because he doesn't have to manage his time. This is common. Yeah. With actors too. When you're used to being fed and we go to the hair makeup trader, then you go here, then you hear, then all of a sudden you're just wide open with no work and no, and it's, you can become unhinged. And it used to happen to us after a tour. You go through this decompression where you have to relearn how to like, you're right, manage your own time and be, yeah, just, just be your own person. Yeah. Just sitting around looking at pieces of bread and thinking, what do I do with this little bread? What are we supposed to do with this? Yeah. And then making it a problem that you then make your manager's problem is so funny to me. Yes. Yes. Very real. Yeah. Somebody else has to step in and sort this out. Yeah. Yes. I've seen this many times. I love, and I'm glad that you have experience here. And this is something you recognize, Ned, because in this viewing, in speaking of like, what, you know, you have to see the movie many times to see the jokes, like my profound appreciation for everything that hinges on the character of the manager Ian Fay. Yeah. Is just a whole, I just like had a whole new appreciation, I think, that I have had in the past of watching this guy who is like unhinged, like violent, sexist, kind of mediocre at his job, but also has to carry the weight of these like three man children that he has to deal with all the time. Yeah. And watching him in a hair trigger to the point where at some point he puts like a, what is it? What is the cricket? Is a cricket club? What is a cricket? It's a cricket bat. Yeah. Yeah. He puts the bat through a television. And in what looks like not a practical effect, it looks like that actor almost got a lecture. Yeah. Yeah. For real. Yeah. There's like a very real sense of danger. Yeah. Can you talk about the relationship between musical act and its manager? Absolutely. I mean, I think I had the same thought rewatching this. He's a great character. And when I see the character Ian, the manager of the band, and like the road manager, when I see that he's doing thematically again and again, is he's having to make excuses for why it's not the way the band wants. So when it's like the tickets and no one showed up for the radio thing, you know, we haven't sold out of tickets in Boston. Boston, don't worry about it. Boston's not a big college town. He's like, oh, don't worry about it. There was just a, no, no, no, no, it'll be fine. It's not that they're not buying the radio. So he's making these excuses. And I see that too in management because you have these artists that demand an answer. Why, why, why, why isn't it going the way we want it? And that's the thing with show business is you're constantly trying to wrangle with controlling the uncontrollable. Like if the audience doesn't want it, you can't force things all the time. And so I feel like that's like his ultimate challenge in the movie is to be this intermediary between the band and the world and trying to let them down softly and keep, you know, keep the train on the tracks and moving forward. I love the Boston's not a big college town. Like what a good, what a good throwaway joke that is just like, Blink, can you miss it? Yeah, yeah, exactly. The biggest college town. And I think often people like, again, like this is a movie that gets reduced, you know, even pre memes. This movie got like reduced to cultural memes and we'll get to the Stonehenge piece. But like, I think for a lot of people, like the joke is that it's small. And like, no, the joke is that Nigel wrote inches and the manager didn't catch it before sending it to production. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This little, this little tiny error of one missing line became or one extra line became a huge problem. I also like, I feel like if I don't mention her now, that it'll sort of get lost in the mix of friend dressers, friends, dressers, characters, who's just like the exasperated. Does she, she's not an A&R person, does she work, but she works for the label or something? I can't recall. She's like a city slicker record label, like major record label person. And she's kind of the intermediary between the band and in that party scene when they're, you know, announcing the record release, she's sort of the intermediary between the band and the record label president. And she asked them like, oh, you should go say hi to Sir Dennis Eaton Hogg, but don't talk too much. Because she knows they're going to muddle it up. So she's kind of like their ambassador within the label. Like, I don't think she's supposed to be an A&R person. She's more like an executive, but something like that. Yeah, sure. Right. And her, her whole task of being nice to the band protecting them from the owner, protecting the owner from them, and then saying no to their artistic decision behind their back is so perfect. Yeah. And I get the impression she doesn't even like the band that much. That was probably just a sign to her. She was not the person that signed this band or has anything to do with them creatively, obviously. She's just trying to keep the machine roll and as best she can. Like when she corners the manager and sort of like tears a strip of skin off of them, both the album cover and being like, you've got this, when he's describing the moment, I'm like, that's Sabrina Carpenter's album cover that she's describing. Oh my God, I couldn't. I was like, what? It is like almost down to the T, the Sabrina Carpenter to the point where I'm like, that has to be a bit on Sabrina Carpenter's part of like, we're going to do this final type album cover for a small, my glove or whatever, whatever that record is called. But when she just is like laid into him about it, I just thought that was so funny. Cause just everything we've seen from her up until then was like, yeah, she's trying to, she's playing nice. She's playing the game. She's making sure that everybody's happy. And then you can see the like deep down, she's like, fuck this band and fuck their stupid album cover idea that I absolutely hate. Yeah. Well, she tells, she's the one that informs them, you know, about women's, women's liberation and stuff. Right. And she's like, it's sexist. And I was, what's, what's wrong with sexy? They've never even heard the word sex. What's wrong with being sexy is so funny, too. And she's like, it's sexy. She's like, what's wrong with being sexy? Also the scene, again, I, this is filled with such resonant and actually stressful scenes where they all appear at that party at first, and they're trying to figure out what her name is immediately behind her back. And she finally like turns into answers straight to their face, which is like nightmare scenario. That's the kind of layer of jokes that I, that really, that I love about this, maybe they keep me wanting to come back, you know, more than the cucumber in the pants, which is funny too. But you know, it's like all those layers of humor about human nature and human behavior. Yeah, it's beautiful. In like, all of those things, those, those funny bits like that are so like, I have been in those rooms, I have been around those people, I know those people that are, that are at a party where they see somebody they know they're supposed to know, but they can't remember what her name is. And they're trying to like secretly amongst themselves, figure it out before somebody calls them. And someone who has like power over your career is like the words get especially in creative industries. Cause it like, whenever, when like, regardless of whatever you're doing, whether you're a writer, a musician or what have you, inevitably you'll be in a room where somebody knows that they know you, but they don't know your name and they are doing some kind of mental gymnastics to get themselves there. Whether that's out loud or in a hushed voice or not, you know that they're like, I can see it in somebody's eyes when I'm talking to them, like they're trying to figure out what my name is right now. Yes. So Nigel's girlfriend shows that. Janine. I guess David's girlfriend. No, not Nigel's girlfriend. David's girlfriend. Thank you. David's girlfriend. Janine. Yeah. David's girlfriend. Janine shows up. She's a new age, which was like a big deal at this time. And when Nigel hears that she's coming, you see in his face, everything that's about to unfold. That's an incredible scene because if you recall, they're on stage at Soundcheck, which is an amazing scene. It feels so real. They're kind of just goofing around on the stage and the way the sound production is. You can hear the amps are turned on. They're actually playing and they're doing some kind of song that sounds like it was probably something fun from one of their oldies together. And they're having this reminiscent time, this silly happy moment in a band's day. And then she walks in and the energy just changes immediately when she enters. And you see him react like, oh no. That's just, it's great. Without giving anything away. What I do like about this sequel is it's a continuation of Nigel and David's strained lifelong relationship, which I appreciate and sort of like finding a way to make amends there. But that dynamic where it's like, there are, I think, a bunch of incorrect assumptions about Yoko and the situation that someone might bring up is the parallel. But just the dynamic of two friends who've known each other for a long time and then having to navigate one of their partners being around and that dynamic being extremely different. Like on that level alone, I love this tension between all these people. Well, and especially because they set it up, like there's so many scenes, like the scene where they're in the, they're like sitting in that restaurant or whatever. And they're trying to remember like the first song that they ever go together. And they're sort of like drumming it out on the table and they're trying to remember the lyrics and all that. And like, they give you such a good sense of like, these guys have known each other since they were like a skiffle band when they were nine years older, what have you. And like, so like really building that relationship to the point where, like you said, when she shows up and she's like running down the hallway in the theater and his tone totally changes and he goes off to catch her. And I'm like, it's so real and it's so funny, but it's so like heartfelt at the same, like you can, like you can feel that tension at the same time. It's so expertly done. Yeah, it's great. It really rings true. I mean, obviously, like Yoko is the obvious thing they were probably drawing from, but that happens in every band. And that's why bands are impossible to keep together forever, almost all the time, because it really is like a marriage in itself. And already have five people or three or four, whatever, that have to manage these inner relationships all with each other like a web. And then inevitably people's lives bring on other people or other influences. And then that seeps into this already fragile, balanced equation and throws everything out of whack. And I think that's what the Jeanine character is all about, who apparently wasn't supposed to be in the movie. They actually added her during production because the studio, they were worried there wasn't enough plot. So they decided, well, let's add this character while they're already shooting the movie. And it's to me, it's like one of the greatest parts of the movie that character is great. Yeah, I'm so glad that they did because like, this is a movie that I sometimes forget has a plot and it really does have a plot. Like, it really has stakes in a way where you can forget. But the stakes are about Jeanine by and large. Like otherwise, like the plot is like, they're going back out on the road and they're not nearly as popular as they used to be. And you know, like, what do you do with waning fame? Well, you get a small scale version of Stonehenge or you get a cocoon thing that doesn't open. And then you call it a day. But like, having that really gives it this like anchor story of like, these, it's these two guys and their relationship to each other. It's these two guys in a series of exploding drummers. Well, and the part of the dynamic with Nigel and David is like, because there is a dynamic between them, like there's a way that they connect and click, Nico, that you talked about with them at the restaurant where they're sort of like very comfortable with each other. But they're also not like honest with each other. They're not like, there isn't like an open line of communication. And so like a part of Jeanine coming in, is she tells all the truths that David is clearly saying to her, but like, is not able to say to Nigel, including like, the last album was mixed poorly because you couldn't hear the vocals, which like you obviously is his criticism. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the sweatshirt, you know, she's trying to convince him to wear the sweatshirt that he doesn't want to wear, you know, but that's just, I think that's just showing that outside influence again, like on a band. And it's a beautiful scene where there's a thing on the tour bus. And we always notice this, you know, the tour buses are separated where there's the sleeping compartment in the middle and you have the back lounge and you have the front lounge. And those are two totally different cultural worlds within your submarine. And in that scene, what I remember when I was watching it is he wants to go in the back lounge. That's where the fun happens. That's where the savage, the key birds play. He's playing video games. There's girls sitting on their laps. That's the party zone. The front lounges. That's where your tour managers on the computer counting merch money. And he's up there. And it was just like this in our band with the singer and his girlfriend up stuck up there with all the lights on, you know, bright and ugly. Like the news is on the TV. Two managers pissed off about the, you know, something that happened. And then in the cool guys in the back and he wants to go to the back and I thought maybe I could just go see what's going on here. And she's like, no, she's like keeping up with that front lounge. And that's exactly how that goes every time in a band. Oh my God. Yeah, I remember. It's so fascinating that you say, and it's so right on the fact that bands or creative partnerships generally are partnerships. They are irromantic, although sometimes they're romantic partnerships, then you have to fit the rest of your life into in one way or another. And it's not always a good or a seamless fit. So unless you're banned for whatever reason defies physical reality, there is some point in which it has to stop. Yeah, I think that the one exception is if your band is so successful in that top 1% that you can travel in comfort and financially make sense. But other than that, it's pretty hard to keep a band together forever because at some point people want to grow up and have a life, you know, most of the time, or some do and some don't. But, you know, in any case, and to keep, you know, a whole original lineup together is very, very rare with few exceptions. You know, like a U2 and I don't know a handful of bands, but it's very rare. When I, a couple of years ago now, I remember going to see Dinosaur Junior playing and seeing them on stage and seeing like, right, these are three guys that are a really good band that clearly don't like each other. When you're on, when they're on stage, you can tell. And it's like, okay, that energy is palpable. And it made the show less engaging for me. But it's also like, right, there's two ways you can go with it of like, this is the original lineup. And we know we play well together. So we're going to go do this thing, but we don't really like each other. And you can tell that we don't like each other or like, you know, like a lineup that's a bit dynamic or whatever that has changed over time, but it keeps sort of the spirit of the band as a whole alive. And like, you know, I've seen so many different iterations of it over over the years. And it is very telling like watching this, I'm like, right, if you just introduced a different element of the band that sort of broke this tension between the two of you, this might have a very different energy, but it's like the two of you have known each other for too long and clearly don't like each other anymore, but are trying to make a way to make it work. Yeah. I saw a couple of years ago, I saw that Brian Jones on massacre play and the core band is still there and they still fight on stage and somehow that's still entertaining. So I guess like if there's a chemistry there, I don't know who knows. Yeah, if the dynamic is we don't like each other and it's noticeable on stage, like if you're the Gallagher Brothers, it's a totally different story. Yeah, absolutely. So a number of things are happening. One is Jeanine is kind of inserting herself or David is inserting Jeanine a little bit more in creative decisions because she's also serving as a voice for David's truths that he will not say. The other is God, this is probably a thing everyone knows, but I don't speaking of the Sabrina Carpenter cover is Metallica's black album a nod to this. It's an explicit homage to them. Yeah. Is it okay? As far as I know. Because they get they from the label, the response to not going the Sabrina Carpenter route is the label delivers a number of just like fully black albums that look like the squares on the Epstein report. Right. Right. And that's another moment with them. The band recognizes that they have to live with this. So then they start trying to convince themselves it's not so bad. It's actually kind of cool. It's black. I mean, this is actually, you know, so yeah, that's that speaks to life also acceptance. I can kind of see myself reflected in it or whatever. Like when Harry Shearer is looking at it and is like trying to find the upside somehow desperately. Yeah. Did you ever have this experience? Like, I don't know how much creative control you all had over, you know, Alomar and whatnot, but did you ever have that experience of like getting the final product and being like, well, this is what it is? Yeah, I mean, we made five studio albums, you know, and 10 music videos probably. And there was definitely stuff that worked great and stuff that didn't work great or sound great in the long run. Or, you know, you pick and choose your battles. We largely had like a lot of creative control, but you're constantly pushing and pulling with the people that are financing this stuff. And, you know, different markets want different promotional materials. And sometimes you don't have time to think of the good t-shirt idea. So you get the crappy t-shirt that nobody wants to buy and you're stuck with a hundred thousand, you know, shittily colored t-shirts that still sit in a cardboard box somewhere. Everybody I know that's ever been in a band does have that. They've got that cardboard box of stuff in their house. That's like, well, this is stuff that I had on from a tour from 20 fucking years ago. They just never sold. And I've just, I don't want to give it to anybody. It just sits there collecting dust until I someday will throw it away. Yeah, it makes me want to cry. Yeah, that's yeah, I know. I have four very, very heavy boxes of a literary magazine that my friends and I put out in like 2004. I don't know why I'm not getting rid of it, but let's just, who knows, something might happen. This is why it's perfect to be an author. No one gives you any books to sell. So you just like, I don't, I have no proof that I've ever done anything because they only gave me nine books when my book came out and I managed to sell nine books. So I'm good. So, okay. So we're, we're, we're at the part where they're now ultimately pivoting to glam, at least as far as their stage performance goes. And this is where Nigel ultimately is looking to have, after there's a debate of the costumes that Janine suggests that are all just kiss costumes, Nigel sort of silently draws one of the, what are the things from Stonehenge called? Do we know? I don't know what those rock formations are, but yeah, he draws, he draws one of the formations from Stonehenge and passes it on ultimately to get made. And of course, famously rather than it being 18 feet, it's 18 inches or 28 feet is 28 inches. Yeah. Which I can't believe anyone notices based on what else is going on on stage, but you know, they take it very personally because I think that they see this one specific failure is symbolic of everything else they've been denying about their time on the road. I do like the idea that they would center the whole bit around like, we're going to have this Stonehenge thing come out of the floor while we're playing, but they wouldn't have looked at the model before the show. Yeah. Well, I think they're out of touch with the people doing the work for them because they're, you know, they are used to working at such a high level where they don't have to sign off on the idea, but they don't have to follow through to get it made. So, you know, it's, again, it's just showing the bloat of like, you know, arena rock bands of the 70s and 80s. Yeah. Feels real for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so everyone blames Ian, Ian quits. And ultimately, Jeanine, who David has been angling to have as the manager steps into the management role. Jeanine immediately, I don't know if she's, you know, Ian says one thing that I felt was real as hell where he's like, for every one thing that goes wrong, 100 things goes right that you guys don't acknowledge. Yeah. Right. I kind of loved that and acknowledge. I saw that sort of more sharply than I've ever seen. It really shows my middle age that that's what's sticking out to me. It's a sign of a good manager of like everything that goes well you never see because you're not supposed to. Yeah, totally. I'm a good point, Ian. So I don't know if Jeanine is cleaning up an Ian mess or if Jeanine is just instantly making messes because she's never been a manager, but they find that the gig that they were going to go to is no longer in service, so that they're going to a United States Air Force base. Oh my God. She mentions they didn't sell enough tickets, and so they had to move venues. She mentioned that I noticed today, which I hadn't actually never picked up on that. But yeah. And unfortunately throughout this, we're inevitably going to overlook like a ton of amazing characters because there's so many sort of like little bits where people show up for one glorious minute. But please forgive us if that happens. But we do have Fred Willard in the scene. And anytime Fred Willard is on screen in literally any situation, it's my favorite part of the movie. Yeah. He's so good as the Air Force guy. When he was like, oh yeah, my hair's going to be shaking myself. And he's like the slight like loose hair in the back of his head. Just like plays that kind of guy. So like I've met that kind of guy a thousand times before. He plays him so well. Yeah. And it's I just love that. Like a guy that has a band in his space and is clearly like, I don't like music and I especially don't like the music you're about to play. Yeah. He says, I love your music. Well, not your music specifically, but you know, general music. Yeah. He also has a great bit that I really love that's in the dialogue where he's giving them their start times in military time and they're completely confused. He's like 1500. So maybe we'll get you back here at 14. And then Derek Small starts trying to calculate the math. He's like 150 hours. He's like trying to understand what he's saying and that and not following. Yeah. I wonder how much of the like dealing with the Fred Willard character is relatable where like I feel like part of being a performer of any sort, but especially being part of a band where you have to go interface with people every day of varying levels of stoked for you. Like how much of that resonates? I mean, that scene resonates a lot too. And I think really what that plays on is that there's a whole thing in music and performance when there's the shows you get to go and play that are the fun part of the job, the meat of the job, the tour for your fans playing the big houses and stuff. And then there's the the dark underbelly of the world where it's like, but also we have to go play the corporate events because that's where we make our money. So we're going to go play at a golf club because one person that was in charge of hiring the entertainment like the band. So they're like, well, I'll be great. I'll get my favorite band and no one else in that environment could give a shit that they're there. That's always the worst shows in the weirdest environments. And so really, I think that they again, they like almost told the future, you know, without knowing it. And that's why this movie is amazing and holds up so well. This is the kind of stuff that still happens all the time in bands. Every every band's gone through this where you're playing some party or some environment that you're really not suited for. And it's going to be a terrible event with an audience that is not there to see you. And you have to grin and bear it. And that's what that scene really is like about for me. Fantastic. A tale as old as time. Yeah. Yeah. And at that gig, this is Nigel's last straw. They experienced some equipment malfunction and he leaves the stage. At their next one, which is ultimately said to be a theme land amusement park in Stockton, California, which I love because I lived in Stockton and I was like, hell yeah, but unfortunately, it was filmed at Magic Mountain. They're performing at the amphitheater. And my only argument against anything that works in this movie is there's not any time to create the tension between Nigel quitting the pit and Nigel rejoining the pit. Although maybe that's maybe that's because he can't help himself. And that's the point. But I do, I do enjoy that. You know, he sees them playing to a sparse, but still like quasi-wrapped crowd. Is this am I confusing the performances? This is that the amphitheater where this happens. I think you're right. Yeah. And he kind of saunters back onto the side of stage and then he ultimately comes on stage, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he joins the band. But I agree with you. That's actually a really good critique that it would be the one thing. And the movie is incredibly short. I don't know if you noticed, but I mean the run time is like one 15 or something. Like totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really gets to the meat of it. The sequel's the same runtime, which I feel like is a great homage. That is cool. I miss the era of movies that were 90 minutes, you know, and you're shorter. I think it's like such a lost art that, you know, and I think it's a really had a bad effect on audiences because as attention spans shrink, the run times grow. But in any case, yeah, it is. It doesn't, you don't get the sense that he's been gone for years and maybe not. I never really thought about it. I kind of assumed he hadn't been gone a very long time. Maybe he's, maybe it's been just a, you know, a month. I don't know. Yeah. That's interesting. He's been gone for like an afternoon and comes back and he's like, Hey, we got a single as big in Japan. Yeah. Yeah. But I love, you know, I love that scene because again, this just speaks to the details that they did when making this movie with the sound design. When he is watching the band, the sound is thinner. Like there's not a second guitar and they didn't record one. And like my, this is music nerd stuff, but as I'm watching, I'm like, yeah, look, they're missing part of their thing. Like it's, you can see David playing, but when he goes to solo, there's no big guitar under it, you know, and he's doing his solo and you're missing this Nigel component. So when he comes back to take the solo, it's great. And then they get their full force back. I just had a flash of a joke that I wanted to make sure that I mentioned before it gets lost, which is them backstage trying to get to the stage and knowing, which I have done and been there. I think anybody who's ever been to a weird venue has had this experience of like, so I turn left and then I go, and then there's like that whole bit of them trying to find the stage without their manager who is like normally the manager who looks after them. And now they've got, you know, Janine, who is not nearly as adept as, as sort of controlling them is so fucking funny. And it's just, I was just been thinking about it since I watched it of like, who amongst us has not been like, okay, but I turned left and then I went down the hall where you said, but I'm back here somehow. Where do I go? I'm going to, I need to be on stage. It's also every stress dream I've ever had. I know I have to like do a performance of like, what if I'm late? What if I can't find the stage? What if like, what if I die back there? Yeah, yeah, that's super true. Especially, you know, you get in all these places and there's no windows, there's no landmarks and it's, you know, the good productions, they'll put signs, which is so juvenile, but it'll be like, you know, stage this way, bathroom this, you know, they put arrows up every day for, yeah, for the lost souls of the rock musicians that are confused and lost and not paying attention. Yeah. But I've had that happen in real life. So that's another thing they like put a, they just put such a sharp tip on this thing that really happens and turn it into this funny joke that lives on. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's the movie wraps pretty quickly. Ian's rehired as the manager, Mick explodes on stage. I really enjoy, I love that the whole movie is like rooted in reality. And there's just like one joke where he explodes on stage. Although we, you know, we've lived enough time with pyrotechnics to know that a number of famous people have at least taken a real bad hit from pyrotechnics. So who knows? Yeah. But it's not a pyrotechnic thing, is it? It just looks like he spontaneously combusts. He just explodes. Yeah. It left a stain. They said that he leaves a stain and they said, we don't know what would happen. You can't dust for vomit. Well, that was a different genre. The can't dust for vomit is so funny because they didn't know if it was his vomit or someone else's vomit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, and again, just there are so many amazing performances. You mentioned Howard Hesman earlier, Nico playing the like rival man. He's like also a manager of the other band. He's the manager of their rival band, I think. And he shows up and he's like in passing because it's that thing of like, you're seeing the manager of your rival band who is like, I got the sense of is doing better than they are. Yeah. It's cool. And so there's like, there's that rivalry where you have this like seething, pleasant conversation with a person you really hate. They're almost trying to get some of that cool off of it. You know, they want to be friends and they're like, oh, hey, I was going to try. And then he says the classic line, we stole his quote, which is like, I would love to stay and talk, but we got to go sit in the lobby and wait for the limo. Like they don't have to be anywhere. And brushes them off. And they said, where are you guys playing tonight? And I have some fucking enormous dome. I don't know. It's great. He doesn't even know the name of the place. They're taking for granted that they're having this hot moment. It's so good. It's so, so funny. We also had the Paul Benedict Hotel clerk character is really fantastic. Yes. Truly amazing. There is the Bruno Kirby as the driver is really is phenomenal. Oh, the limo driver who's telling her about she one of them is reading a book again. The Sammy Davis Jr. biography. He's like talking about Frank Sinatra and then the screen slowly going up. It's amazing. That's one of my favorite bits. He's yeah, he's trying to bond. That's a classic thing. It's you got the driver or the local person that's there to try and help you and wants to be chatty. Yeah. And he's trying to tell them about the golden days and stuff. He's a two and they just just cut them off mid, mid sentence. Yeah. Oh, so good. Paul Schaefer as the self hating Midwest A&R guy is really truly remarkable for taking the hit for why no one has shown up. And then and then also Billy Crystal and Dana Carvey played the Mime waiters. I forgot that Dana Carvey was I didn't know Dana was in it. I never do that. And this is something that like I again, like as a person who's deep into research about Los Angeles in 1975, I did not fully realize how much mimes were a part of mainstream entertainment. Like in listings, there are several mime shows. This was really happening at the time in a big way. And I love based on a real mime. Yeah, based on a real ass. That's wild. Yeah. So they're they're really perfect. And then Billy Crystal just being Billy Crystal is a mime is wonderful. Yeah, that's hilarious. There's I know in the in the DVD they put out in the 90s or maybe 2000s, whatever, there was this huge extended footage, you know, like 15 minutes of Bruno Kirby as the driver going on. So it's really funny. Yeah, those are great. I love that guy. You mentioned the clerk in the in the hotel. Forget the actor's name. You said it. Oh, yeah, Paul, Paul Benedict. Yeah, they start getting hot. They started they start giving him a hard time. And he's like, I'm just as God made me. That's what that we would say in the back of the tour bus. Like, you know, they just took over our language. A lot of these lines in this movie just became how my band would would speak to each other and still do to this day. We still use these quotes that have just become like our everyday language. Yeah, I guess like so, like Paul Shartino, who is in the rival band who plays Duke fame, he was in quiet riot. Like that's the closest. Oh, we and also we have Paul Schaefer ball like Paul Schaefer is like a comedy musical act at this point. He's not like, so yeah, you're right. We don't have we don't have anyone really like representing big music as it were. No, like putting Howard Hesman in as like, you know, the guy from WKRP is kind of the closest we get to like nodding to a connection to like other music media even. They did use real musicians, which is cool. I read a funny story about the guy who played Mick Shrympton and he went and he was in some small bands in England. He was he was an English guy. He's dead now, but and he went to audition and they said, you know, how do you feel about potentially being in a movie that could ruin your music career or destroy your music career? And he said, you should ask me 10 years ago or something like that. He said some smart alec thing, you know, like wishing he had he had ruined his music career a decade sooner. And they're like, you're hired and they gave him a job. I'm looking at a picture of him and he looks like the coolest person alive. Oh, he's great. Perfect casting. And he's a real drummer. And you can see that's again why this movie holds up when it's showing the music they're playing. You know, that's why it feels so real as well. It's not like they had actors just learning to play. These were real, you know, even the main actors who were obviously comedians, but they're also they play their instruments. So yeah, yeah, that hearing the you were talking about working with Marin, hearing the interview between him and Christopher Guest talking about guitars was really fantastic because like Christopher Guest seems like elements of Nigel were really hit. Like he seems like a deep, deep, deep, like appreciative of like the instruments and how all that stuff actually works. Like he seems reverent and met arena. Yeah, that was a good interview. I loved how he talked about back in the day when he was young and he was doing comedy and music and wanted to do both and people were like, why would you do that? You can't do that. You can't do both. And he was like, fuck off. Why can't I do both? But that's kind of a thing. And it used to be the same with film versus TV acting. But I agree. I've had the same experience working in both fields and like they totally go together. Those credits transfer us, you know, like universities. Yeah. Martin Moll was another one of those guys who toured folk venues, but like was, you know, TV star. Yeah. I think it just shows a greater even range in the arts for a lot of people I've met. A lot of musicians I've met are so some of the often some of the funniest people I've met and and good performers, you know. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, before we get to the last question that we typically ask at the end of the shows, Ned, I'm curious, I mean, we've covered a lot of ground, but is there anything else that you feel like you haven't covered with regard to what this movie speaks to well with regard to your experience as a professional musician? I think the movie just again, it just it draws so much humor from the mundane. And it just puts this world that will not a lot of people get to see as a famous musician into such sharp focus in a way that's very real and hasn't really changed. Like you would think that this would have changed. But I mean, I still play in bands that tour and travel and stuff. And it's all the same stuff. It's the same personalities, the same conflicts, the same confusion and miscommunication. And they just nailed it so well in this first attempt. And there's like really nothing I would change about this movie. Nico, I'll start. I'll start the question on you so we can illustrate for Ned what is required here. Sure. I don't think we do we have a father in this movie? This is a fatherless movie. I think this is I don't think there's any explicit fathers now. Well, here's here's how I'll frame it. We know that Carl Reiner is Rob Reiner's father. Who in your view, Nico Stratus, is the daddy of Spinal Tap? That's a hell of a way to frame that. I've been thinking about this since I watched the movie and it's a really hard one for me to narrow down. Ultimately, I am going to say it is friend dresser's character. Beautiful. Who just, you know, is sort of a take no shit, but give a little shit, stern driving force. Beautiful. Ned, this is a Rorschach test of a question. You're welcome to answer it in any way you want for whatever reason you want. People interpret daddy in all sorts of ways. So who in your view is the daddy of this is Spinal Tap? And it's somebody connected to the movie, obviously. That's the guy. It's usually a character, but anyone who's come up in the conversation is good. It's it's, you know, as you can tell, it's an agender question. So you can answer however we want. I think the daddy of this movie is absolutely Rob Reiner. It was his idea to make this movie. He incubated the seeds. You know, Norman Lear was his mentor that ultimately gave him the green light to make this movie, even though he didn't really understand what they were going to even try and do. But he came up with this concept and then he got all of his family and his children, you know, and guest and Harry Shearer and David St. Hubbin's character, you know, obviously he got them to come and make build this family and stuff. But I think it was his, you know, genesis and putting himself in the movie, which we didn't even talk about. But it was just so, you know, he's the overseer of the story. He's almost like the invisible narrator in a way. You know, he's pulling the strings of this movie from behind the camera or sometimes in front of camera. We didn't really talk about Rob Reiner as character in the movie as the film, as the person making the mockumentary. But it is almost like, you know, talking about it plot wise, there's very little to really say about his character other than being sort of the heart that is driving the whole thing forward, right? Like it is his in character. It is his desire to sort of create a documentary about this band that he had seen in a pub, I believe, or he had seen them play and he was like, they changed what I thought of a rock music. And so he wants to make this documentary of them. And so he's sort of, he is the narrative lens through the whole thing. He's the audience stand in for a little bit. And, you know, but he is kind of like, it is really hard to talk about his role in the movie because he's kind of not there. And that's the point. And like, it sort of goes back to this idea that I've been thinking of him lately of like, the role of Rob Reiner is to not be there, but for it sort of to need him in order to exist. Yeah. I mean, there is one funny thing in the intro that I've always noticed. And I don't know if this was their intention or not. Is it the hands? No, when he's doing the intro, he does his intro and then it's like, and that's it. We're going to see the movie. And then it goes, boom. And then it cuts to a closer time. And then he keeps talking. And he goes like a little too long. And I always wondered if that was sort of like a play on like maybe the Scorsese type kind of injecting himself into the into the last waltz or whatever. Well, it is Martin Scorsese hated this movie when it originally came out. Because Marty Divergy is Martin Scorsese from the last waltz. So like he did not like them. He obviously has, you know, he's like seemingly a lovely guy who's come around real hard on it. But yeah, when this originally came out and it was cocaine Scorsese, I think he was not stoked about his portrayal and his obvious portrayal on the script. Yeah. Yeah. I love the last one. I mean, to speak to the jokes of like, what this is touching on. I love the last one. I like any red blooded music lover watched it last month to celebrate the holiday. But it's like, it's hard to ignore the parts of that movie that are like, Hey, look at me and Robbie Robertson BFF. Like we're here. We're having a good time. Yeah. So they give a little nod to that in the beginning, but they don't really overstay that that welcome too much. That's a that's a holy, I'm glad you pointed that out, because I didn't catch the joke where he's like, that's it for me and it's more me. Yeah. Something about the way they do the edit feels very intentional. Yeah. And I've almost never mentioned editing. Like when I talk about movies, but it's just really stood out to me. It's like, he gives this long meandering intro that feels like it has a natural end and then a smash cut to even closer and more information. I'm going to go with Ian Faith, who seemingly bad person, like not a good person, like based on his blow up by being replaced by a woman. None of them are good people. No, none of these are good people, which I think is great. Like that is fantastic. But I love, I had much more appreciation for Ian Faith as a punchline throughout this movie and his relationship with the band as a punchline throughout this movie. Having to understand that a non crisis is now a crisis because the band says so. These were all beautiful and resonant scenarios that I really, really enjoyed this time around. And of course, you know, echoing what you said, Ned, I'm sure we all agree, you know, Rob Reiner is the daddy of this universe. He's given so much. Yeah. But I like your answers too. And you know, you could give it to guest. He's like the heart and soul of the band. I feel like the creative force. Or running joke in the sequel is that Derek is the glue. Well, you know, and there's that one scene where they say he's like fire and water. I'm Luke warm water. And I push back that no one's a good person in this other characters. I would push back that Derek Smalls is a good person. He's like, he seems like a sweet nature. Yeah, you're right. Actually, no, you're right. A person that just, you know, doesn't have a big ego and just kind of wants to be there and help facilitate and, you know, be on the ride. He's just there to be stuck in the cocoon. Yeah. Yeah, that's so perfect. I, God, I, this is truly a beautiful movie. I'm glad that we did this. I agree. Yeah, this was fun. Thanks for finally giving me the himatist to watch a movie. I think I just assumed that I had seen it because I just know every joke from it. And it turns out I'd never actually watched it. So thank you for giving me a good reason to put it on. Well, I made myself lunch because it's so short that it's like punchy. And I was like, Oh, it's over. Okay, good. Yeah, I was worried about finding the time to rewatch it. And I was really stoked when I saw that runtime. I was like, Oh, I can knock this out right now in one sitting. I got this. I'm with UNED. I'm like, I just like, I don't need movies to be three hours after like the hour and a half. I'm like, okay, I'm done here. Like, it's a TV show. You know, like if you get a show that's an hour episode per episode or whatever, I like that, but things just drag on too much. And I just don't have any time. That's so true. Well, everybody check out the pits. And what else should people check out in the end of yours? I think that's the main thing. The pits coming out season two, January 8th. So it's almost year. Thank God. Very excited about it. I loved the first season. Oh, good. Yeah. That show fucking rules. I'm so glad. Yeah, incredible show. Yeah, it was a really a dream come true project to have been part of and it's still going. So hopefully there'll be more to come. But I think the new season's gonna be a lot of fun. I should like it's some great new characters and Noah's amazing. And yeah, I'm excited to see the reception next year. Well, thanks for being here. We really appreciate it. Thanks guys. It's good to see you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Oh, thanks so much for doing this. Okay, that is it for this week's episode of You Are Good A Feeling podcast about movies. Thanks so much to Ned Brower. Don't forget to check out our episode of the OC again, where we talk to Ned even more. It's Nico's and my show about the OC. It's a rewatch show, but you know, it's about pop culture at the time. And we have Ned there to talk about having lived it. Thanks to Miranda Zickler for producing and editing this episode. Of course, thanks to Nico Stratis for co-hosting today. Thanks to y'all for being great. We appreciate you. Thanks for supporting us on Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions. We appreciate that. We can't make the show without you. Thanks for not forgetting that you, my friend, are good. Well, we'll talk with y'all soon, huh? Let's do this again next week, shall we? Happy New Year, friends. So glad that you're here with us.