Zelensky: Russia has already started a Third World War

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Hello and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London. I'm Leila Nathu. In just over 10 minutes' time, we will speak to Wagner Moura, star of The Secret Agent, which has been nominated for four Oscars. He tells me why he was drawn to his character, a man caught up in the turmoil of 1970s Brazil. For me, he's just a man who's trying to stick with the values that he has in a moment when everything around him says the opposite. And I love this about this character. You know, he's not a freedom fighter. He's not a revolutionary. He doesn't want to overthrow the government. He's just a man who wants to be himself. But first on the programme, Ukrainians are looking ahead to a grim milestone. Tomorrow marks four years since Russia mounted its full-scale invasion of their country. Russian attacks show no sign of abating, and Ukraine continues to count its casualties. Kiev accuses Moscow of merely going through the motions of peace talks, with demands for Ukraine to cede further territory, proving a roadblock to a ceasefire. Meanwhile, President Trump has stopped almost all US military shipments to Ukraine, with European nations scrambling to step in. In this context, President Zelensky's defiance is remarkable. He's told the BBC that it's only a matter of time before Ukraine retakes the land seized by Russia over the last four years of war, and that he's convinced Ukraine can ultimately win the war. He's been speaking to our international editor, Jeremy Bowen, in Kyiv. In any case, we will achieve that. That is absolutely clear. It's only a matter of time. To do it today would mean losing a huge number of people, millions of people, because the Russian army is large, and we understand the cost of such steps. We would not have enough people. We would be losing them. And what is land without people? Honestly, nothing. And we also do not have a sufficient amount of weapons. That depends not only on us, but on our partners. As of today, this is not available. But returning to the just borders of 1991 is without a doubt a victory for justice. When Joe Biden was U.S. president, he was worried about Putin's nuclear threats, nuclear saber rattling, fear of World War III. Does Trump think the same way? We have different views regarding a third world war. I believe that Putin has already started it. The question is how much territory he will be able to seize and how to stop him. Not because Russia must not win, but because Russia wants to impose on the world a different way of life and change the lives people have chosen for themselves. Therefore, I believe and have long believed that Putin has already begun this war and will be preventing it from becoming a broad, full-scale third world war. Let's talk a little bit about the ceasefire talks which are going on. Well, there's talk of another round next week. You have said that both the United States and Russia have told you that the way to get a ceasefire by the summer is for you, Ukraine, to give up the 20 percent of Donetsk that you still have, those so-called fortress cities. Isn't that a reasonable thing to do? They're both asking for it. I see this differently. I don't look at it simply as land, or not only as that. I see it as abandoning, weakening our positions, abandoning hundreds of thousands of our people who live there. That is how I see it. And I am sure that this withdrawal would divide our society. Steve Witkoff, Trump's negotiator, goes to Moscow, talks to Putin, he comes back, the messages are then relayed to you. It seems to be, a lot of people would say, that he is absorbing Putin's talking points, Russia's narrative, and they are putting it to you and getting you to agree that they're putting you under a lot of pressure. Today I cannot say that for certain. Do you know why? Because Witkow says the opposite. I met with your group more often than with the Russians. That is what he says. Indeed, I have had many meetings with President Trump, while President Trump has only one meeting with Putin. My opinion, they should stop the Russians, not try to please them, because they will lie anyway. They care only about themselves and their own interests. Donald Trump says different things at different times. But among the things he said is that you are a dictator and that you started the war. It's not helpful, is it, for you? I'm not a dictator and I didn't start the war. That's it. Can you trust President Trump, say on security guarantees, because he is a man who changes his mind? It's not only President Trump. We are talking about America. As presidents we have fixed terms. We want guarantees for 30 years, for example. Congress is needed. Presidents change, but institutions stay. What about the personal cost on you? You've got a tough job. I still have energy. It can't be any other way. We don't know how this war will end, but for now we are not losing, and this is important. But Vladimir Putin isn't going to end this war, is he, unless he's under massive pressure, and he doesn't seem to be. Yes and no. We will see. Yes and no. He doesn't want, but doesn't want doesn't mean he will not. That was Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky speaking to our international editor Jeremy Bowen in Kiev on the eve of the four-year anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. While Moscow's war has taken its toll on Russians too, our Russia editor Steve Rosenberg travelled to Lipik's region, halfway between Moscow and the Ukrainian border, to explore the impact of the conflict there. In the town of Yiliats, walk down Orginal Kidzi Street and you'll come to a butcher, a baker and an online shopping collection point. Look up and you'll see a mural. It takes up an entire side of a nine-storey block of flats. It shows the faces of five Russian soldiers, local men killed fighting in Ukraine. The giant image hangs over this town, like the war on Ukraine hangs over Russia. I notice that passers-by are not looking up at the picture. It's as if after four years, for people here, this war is no longer something extraordinary. Can you see a light? Opposite the mural, Leonid is in trouble. His car is stuck in the snow. Two women with shovels appear and try to dig him out. Leonid tells me he follows news of the special military operation, Russia's war on Ukraine. He knows a lot of people who are fighting there. Our guys will win, he says, no doubt. And then adds, it's just a shame that people are being killed. Irina, who works at the bus station, stops to talk to me. She tells me that the husband of her friend has been killed fighting in Ukraine, and her cousin's son and grandson. The Russian authorities do not publish casualty figures for this war. But conversations like this one point to huge battlefield losses. more and more Russians tell me about family, friends or friends of friends who've been wounded or killed in Ukraine. Irina sends aid packages to Russian soldiers on the front line. She doesn't criticise the war, but she is confused by it. In World War II, we knew what we were fighting for, Irina says. I'm not sure what we're fighting for now. Over the last four years, the Russian authorities have come up with all kinds of answers to that question. President Putin has spoken of denazifying Ukraine, demilitarizing it. Russian officials talk variously about defending Russian speakers there, reclaiming historical Russian land, about halting NATO expansion and about protecting Russia itself from alleged Western plots to destroy it. Mixed messaging. What is clear is that this war has changed towns like Yiliats. Driving around, I see army recruitment posters and emergency shelters in case of drone attacks. And the local pancake stand features the Latin letters V and Z, symbols of Russia's war on Ukraine. And the fast food sign has this slogan, grab a pancake and then the whole world. At a local bakery, they're feeling Russia's economic downturn after four years of war. Costs have soared. Many small businesses have been hit by tax hikes. The bakery and its customers are having to cope with rising utility bills and higher prices. The subject of money is a very important one now, says bakery owner Anastasia. Everyone is thinking about it. People are worried, they're angry, and they're wondering how to get by. And do you remember what date is it today? You can look at the board. 50 miles away, in the regional capital, Lipitsk, Yulia Kashinka is teaching a class at her language school. UK-Russia relations are acutely strained over Ukraine, but Russians still want to learn English. The war, though, is impossible to ignore. You understand that Ukraine is situated not so far from our territory, and of course we feel it. We watch TV every day and we see this picture, we see this news, we are hoping for the best. If we don't have any hope, it will be very difficult and complicated to live and to move forward. In an apartment block across town, it's proving difficult and complicated to deal with a leaking pipe. In the lobby entrance, there's ice on the floor and on the walls, and the lifts stop working. Ivan Pavlovich complains to me about the water that's trickling down and about his utility bills that are going up. He concedes that life would be easier without a war on. But if I were younger, I'd go and fight, Ivan declares. The special military operation is excellent. It's just that prices keep rising. Pensions go up but then prices go up even more So what do I gain Nothing In the lobby the Cold War has begun Someone is breaking up the ice and disposing of it outside Not everyone in Russia joins the dots and connects their social and economic problems with a costly war on Ukraine. But many Russians do feel that life is getting harder and few seem to believe it will get any easier anytime soon. That was our Russia editor Steve Rosenberg reporting from Lipitsk in Western Russia. You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is News Hour. Coming up on the programme, violence erupts across Mexico after a drug lord is killed by the army. A block away, suddenly there was a huge fire. Then another block away, there was another fire. We see these billows of black smoke. It's terrifying because this is just something so unexpected. We'll hear more about the man known as El Mencho in half an hour's time. A couple of headlines for you this hour. The International Criminal Court has opened hearings to decide if the former Philippine president, Rodrigo Duterte, should face trial for crimes against humanity. We will have more on that in about 20 minutes. Spain's prime minister has announced that he will declassify files related to an attempted coup in 1981 that nearly derailed the country's fledgling democracy. You're listening to NewsHour. We're live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Leila Nathu. That was a snippet in Portuguese of the Oscar-nominated film The Secret Agent, a stylish Brazilian crime drama about an academic on the run in 1977 against the backdrop of the country's military dictatorship. It is, by all accounts, a wild ride, funny, poignant, thrilling and thought-provoking. Earlier, I spoke to the film's star, Wagner Moura, who's already well known for his portrayal of the Colombian drug kingpin Pablo Escobar in the Netflix series Narcos. He plays the lead role of Marcelo in The Secret Agent. I began by asking about his reflections on that period in Brazilian politics in which the film is set. Yeah, I was born in 76 and the dictatorship ended in 85. But it didn't really end in 85. I feel that the echoes of the dictatorship are still very present in Brazil. Of course, Brazil is a democratic country. You have a democratic president. But four years ago, we had reelected the president that was trying to bring back to Brazil from the 21st century the values of the dictatorship that we had. So I guess that it wasn't that complicated. You know, first I had directed a film that took place during the dictatorship, a film called Marighella, about a freedom fighter, the leader of the resistance against the dictatorship in Brazil that died in 1969. So I knew a little bit of what Brazil was culturally, politically, socially back then. But most importantly, I think that the feeling of the contradictions of Brazil are still very present in contemporary Brazil. The scars of the dictatorship run deep, really. So how's it been received in Brazil when Brazilians watch films set in that period? Extraordinarily. Beautiful, beautiful. It became a blockbuster in Brazil, like beating American superhero films. Brazilians embraced the film in a very loud way because they go to the social medias and the moment that the film is going through, like with the awards and everything, their very brazilian fans are very loud and i like that very much and again when brazil took that turn to the right to the far right they were very effective in demonizing artists and journalists and you know scholars and things like that so probably you guys have this here in the uk too like the discussions about whether the government should fund culture it became a huge thing and the Wright was very effective in transforming artists in Brazil into the enemies of the people. So to see Brazilians rooting for their artists, it's just an incredible moment. I'm very happy and proud. Tell us about your character. How did you see Marcelo? Well, this film, yeah, came from a very personal thing for me. This character is Marcelo, this professor, this scholar that is being chased by hitmen. during the dictatorship. For me, he's just a man who's trying to stick with the values that he has in a moment when everything around him says the opposite. And I love this about this character. You know, he's not a freedom fighter. He's not a revolutionary. He doesn't want to overthrow the government. He's just a man who wants to be himself. And it's crazy to think that in moments like the dictatorship in Brazil or even like in many other places in the world right now, It's hard just to be who you are. You don't have to try to do anything against the government. Just the fact that you have a particular skin color or you think that God is something that the government doesn't think the same or your political ideas, that can end your life. So, and that's what happened in Brazil back then. It was like people just disappeared. and it's a very silent character because I don't think I have ever played a character where everything had to be so internalised because as you know in a dictatorship you cannot call the cops, you cannot do anything, you cannot scream and you cannot hire a lawyer. When you're going through something that you believe is not fair, you cannot do what people do usually. I think you absolutely do get that sense of all the forces against him But there are also some major themes, at least to me, it struck me that the film tackles class, corruption, and then obviously later, how you relate to your past, your country's past and your own history. Yes, it's a lot about memory or about amnesia, I think, self-inflicted amnesia. That's what happened to us in Brazil. I remember, again, I was born during the dictatorship, so I went to school in the 80s. And the kind of books that I read were like, when I think about it today, it was like, what was that? I was reading like the revolution of 64 that saved Brazil from communism. are like so interesting how, yeah, the truth, you know, is something that, especially nowadays, it's something that that's kind of over, you know, but back then, but in any dictatorship, that's what it is, you know, like the narrative is whatever the people that are in power says it is. So, yeah. And in 79 in Brazil, also, we had this law called the amnesty law. And that law basically was the dictatorship forgiving themselves. So it forgave all the torturers, all the killers, all the people that did despicable things to civilians. So generations and generations in Brazil grew up thinking that that was okay. If these guys were not punished, that might be acceptable. And it's great that I think that right now I have to say I'm very proud of Brazil because we are finally getting even with that amnesia problem. And when we sent Bolsonaro to jail for attempting against a democracy in the country or we sent military people to jail for the first time in Brazil, this is a process that is starting. Hopefully, the new generations in Brazil won't have to deal with that lack of memory that we see clearly in the end of the film. Yeah, and that is so interesting how different generations relationship with a particular period of time in a country's history can itself change over time depending on the mood and depending on what's happened since then i have to ask you about the pace of the film because you know it's a very long film it's almost three hours long and it certainly starts off very slowly and takes a lot of time for marcello's story to become clear yeah i just wonder in this age of very short attention spans i mean it felt to me that this is a film made for cinema where you are there in darkness concentrating on it fully i mean these sorts of films do still have a place don't they in cinema oh yeah man i mean i'm glad they do right like otherwise we would be forced to see one frame per one scene per second you know it doesn't depend on on how many minutes the film has you know it's more like are we is this am i connecting to this thing am i communicating is this communicating something to me absolutely so you're in town for you were in town for the baftas last night the film missed out on the awards last night but it it has been decorated already and it's obviously nominated for a number of Oscars including for you as best actor are these sorts of things important for you? I think so oh yeah they're important it's great for me I'm so happy about it and and it's not all the time that you get that kind of attention it's a beautiful moment for for Brazilian cinema you know this is a Brazilian film that has been having the attention of the world since Cannes, since May. So it's fantastic. That was the Brazilian actor Wagner Moura talking to me earlier about his starring role in the film The Secret Agent. This is Leila Nathu with NewsHour from the BBC World Service. Thank you. to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. I understand that you want to listen to your podcast, so I'll keep it short. Because if As you think it's important to make a sustainable choice, can ASER maybe help? 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It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. now to south sudan where according to the united nations fighting has forced more than 200 200 people from their homes in the east of the country Renewed clashes between the South Sudanese army and forces loyal to the suspended first vice president, Riek Machar, has prompted concerns that the world's youngest nation, and one of its poorest, is on the brink of another full-blown civil war. The United Nations humanitarian chief, Tom Fletcher, is currently in South Sudan, from where he's been speaking to the BBC's Rob Young. You've got 6 million people hungry across South Sudan. You've got 7 in 10 people needing help right now. And they're telling horrific stories. You know, I met a 70-year-old grandmother who's having her limbs amputated because of bullet wounds. I held a child, an 18-month-old, with bullet wounds in his legs as well. So you've got high hunger levels, you've got cholera, you've got immense amounts of misery and hardship, and also immense amounts of sexual violence. and one trend recently is a real upsurge in violence against women and girls. When you saw those victims, did you get a sense that they were caught up in the violence or that perhaps they were being deliberately targeted? So it's very hard to tell. Many of them are injured as they're fleeing their homes. Many of them are hit in airstrikes and so they have bone wounds. But the wounds, and of course these are civilians that are meeting, the wounds to them look quite methodical. You know, if someone is shot in both their calves. It's quite hard to do that by accident. So certainly in the hospitals, we're seeing evidence, I think, of lots of deliberate targeting of civilians. And so we've got to be out there. What we find is that nearer the UN bases, people feel a bit safer, but ultimately they won't feel safe while this conflict is raging. I met a lot of grandmothers who were carrying their grandchildren because their own kids had all been killed or abducted. So you've got tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. You've got people surviving just eating the leaves from the trees and saying that they haven't eaten properly for days. It's truly grim. People are eating leaves from the trees. There is so little food. That's right. They've got these lalob trees, they call them, and they get the leaves down and they boil them up. Virtually no nutritional value at all. So one of the things we're trying to do, and one of the things we've done in the last couple of days with this visit, is to open up new access routes for our aid convoys, for our aid to get to these civilians in areas that we weren't able to reach even a week ago. So we're getting now to areas that weren't getting enough help. We're surging in the food and the medicine and the shelter, but it's just not enough because, you know, we're facing massive cuts and the needs here are just overwhelming. Sudan, just to the north, often is referred to by many humanitarian workers as a forgotten conflict. How do you characterise the conflict in South Sudan? The reality for South Sudan is it's the forgotten conflict, the forgotten conflict. At least Sudan is getting some Security Council attention. It's getting some attention from key member states, from world powers. I've just been in Washington for a pledging conference for Sudan, whereas South Sudan is getting, I'm afraid, none of that. That was the United Nations Humanitarian Chief Tom Fletcher talking to my colleague Rob Young earlier from South Sudan. You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. I'm Leila Nafu. Let's return to Ukraine now on the eve of the four-year anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion. President Zelensky has told the BBC that Ukraine will reclaim the land captured by Moscow and go on to win the war. His defiant tone certainly suggests he is looking ahead to a post-conflict Ukraine. And he's recently appointed a new advisor on Ukraine's future economic development, former Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister of Canada, Chrystia Freeland. I spoke to her from Kiev about her unpaid role. I started by asking her how resilient she thought Ukraine's economy had been throughout the conflict. It has been astonishingly resilient. When I look at what Ukraine has managed, not only to survive, but to accomplish over the past four years, I am just gobsmacked. You know, I was in government. I was deputy prime minister of Canada when the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine was launched. And all the smartest people, and this is not just the smartest people in Canada. This was the smartest people in NATO, in the Five Eyes. They assured us all that at a maximum, Ukraine, Kiev would be able to hold out for three weeks. They've done it for four years. And, you know, they've been fighting what we all thought was the second strongest army in the world. The joke Ukrainians like to tell is that before the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, people described Russia as having the second strongest army in the world. It turns out Russia only has the second strongest army in Ukraine. Is it your view that Europe will need to sustain the kind of levels of financial support post-war in the event when the war eventually does come to an end in order to keep Ukraine's military strong, to act like a buffer in order to help rebuild Ukraine's economy? I think, Leila, the way we need to think about it is when the war is over and it will end, Ukraine is going to have another fight on its hands. And that fight, rather than being on the military battlefield, is going to be on the economic battlefield. Ukraine will have the opportunity to profoundly transform its economy in the way that countries like Poland did after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, after the fall of the Berlin Wall. That was a hard transformation, but it was incredibly effective. You know, Poland now is, you know, starting to reach the per capita GDP of a Western European country of, you know, it's getting close to Western European levels of prosperity. That is something that Ukraine can do. Ukraine can do it quickly. It will be hard, but it will also be a real opportunity for investors. You talk about the opportunities, but there are also going to be considerable challenges, aren't there, in terms of corruption in the country, the demographics, the kind of losses that Ukrainians have sustained during these years of conflict. Do you see them as being, as outweighing the opportunities? There are for sure huge challenges. And you haven't even mentioned the fact that a lot of the country has been reduced to rubble. So Ukraine has a big, big job on its hands. But if you will forgive me, compared to fighting four years of a war against Russia, I think they've shown that they can accomplish a heck of a lot. And while I think the economic fight, it's real, it's an opportunity for Ukraine. It is not a sure thing that Ukraine will seize this opportunity. But I really believe if they bring the ingenuity, the social solidarity, the commitment to really transforming their country in the post-war period that they have brought to fighting the war, we will see Ukraine as the fastest growing, most successful economy in Europe. And there are going to be some great investment opportunities. One example I want to give you is the defense sector. This is a moment when Europe, NATO countries are significantly stepping up defense spending. And the most innovative defense sector in the world right now is Ukraine. The Ukrainians have figured out a whole new way of fighting. And that way of fighting is driven by new drone technology, very high tech, very AI led. They make drones very cheaply and innovate very, very fast. And that is the kind of technology, the kinds of companies that I think you're already seeing a great deal of investor interest in. One Ukrainian said to me, our defense sector is going to be to our economy, what oil has been to the Gulf states. I think I'm right in saying that you first went to Kiev as a student for an exchange year. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I lived here in Kiev and studied at Cave University in 1988, 1989. Still deep Soviet Union. How do you feel now having that perspective, having gone there for the first time at such a young age under such a different political system, to being back there now and seeing what has happened to Ukraine in those intervening years? I'm very glad to have had that experience. It helps me to understand how far Ukraine has come. I think for people who did not live in the Soviet Union and Soviet rule in Ukraine was particularly tough, particularly brutal, it's hard to really understand how much the country has already transformed itself. So I'm glad to have experienced that. And I do also think the brutality of Soviet authoritarianism is one of the things that drives Ukraine today. For Ukrainians, talking about dictatorship, it's not just something they read about in books. A lot of Ukrainians have experienced it in their own lives, and they're really determined to throw off that yoke. At the same time, it helps me to understand how hard it is. You know, this is a society that has been brutalized and oppressed for decades, if not centuries. And they've already come a long way. That was Chrystia Friedland, former Canadian politician and now economic development advisor to the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky. speaking to NewsHour from Kiev. Now, when Rodrigo Duterte became president of the Philippines in 2016, he vowed to take on the country's drugs gangs, just as he had done during his time as mayor of the southern city of Davao. But his harsh crackdown on crime quickly turned bloody, with the number of people killed by police during his time in power believed to be in the thousands. Prosecutors at the International Criminal Court have since charged Duterte who retired from politics in 2022 with three counts of crimes against humanity, alleging his involvement in dozens of murders between 2013 and 2019, the year in which the Philippines withdrew from the court. Today, the ICC began holding hearings to determine whether he should have a full trial. The former president is being held in a Dutch jail and wasn't present, a decision that's angered relatives of some of those who died. Dozens of his opponents protested outside the courtroom in The Hague. We will be here in the ICC. We will be here every step of the way until we get justice, until the police chiefs are there, until we see the changes that we want to see in the Philippines. Gerry Abela works for Amnesty International in the Philippines and has been following the proceedings today from the capital, Manila. He started by giving me his take on that period in the Philippines' history. The years under the Duterte administration has been one of the darkest periods in recent history of the Philippines. You have tens of thousands of people killed in the war on drugs waged by the Duterte administration. It was so bad that, for example, in just one day, dozens of people were killed in anti-drug police operations. Majority of these killings happened in the poorest and most marginalized communities in the Philippines. And up until this day many many of these victims and their families are still seeking justice Despite all of those deaths during his time in power he has stood by his approach and his crackdown on drugs He thinks these charges are politically motivated. And he says he only authorized police to use force, lethal force, in self-defense. And he had and still has plenty of supporters off that approach. That's correct. Evidently, of course, here in the Philippines, there are still supporters, even outside the Philippines, as you will see, for example, in demonstrations outside of the ICC in The Hague. So does that suggest that across the country, this case has divided people? Yes, to an extent, definitely. While you have a considerable number of Filipinos still supporting the former president, definitely the recent circumstances have allowed an opportunity for also a considerable number of Filipinos to reassess and look at the situation under the Raternity administration more factually. For example, in certain studies, people would think that the killings were too much. Like they were not presented with any other different options, for example, judicial proceedings. And they thought that the killings were just the answer, the only option in terms of dealing with a supposed drug problem. So to an extent, it did divide the nation, but hopefully the proceedings of the ICC would provide an opportunity for a reckoning, a reassessment of what has happened. These hearings are about deciding whether he should face a full trial at the ICC. How important would a full trial be? It is important because we're often asked how many people exactly died. Not a single organization can actually identify the correct numbers. The human rights organizations would estimate the numbers to be between 20,000 and 30,000. But definitely there is no concrete, specific and accurate accounting of what has happened during the Duterte administration. So this is one opportunity to actually look at the facts. The reason why we had to go to the ICC or why this situation reached the ICC is that because there has not been any credible domestic investigations into the killings. So families felt there is no other option. For the families, there's no other option because why there's no real domestic investigations going on into the killings. That's precisely correct. To an extent, the government of the Philippines has announced certain efforts to go after members of the police, for example, who were involved in some of these killings. But they were a mere drop in the bucket. They're merely a fraction of the 20,000 to 30,000 killings. The figures could credibly be higher than the current estimates. So that is what the families are thinking. There has not been any credible investigation in the Philippines. That was Gerry Abela from Amnesty International in the Philippines. You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is NewsHour. A reminder of our top story this hour. Ukraine's President Zelensky has told the BBC that Vladimir Putin has already started the Third World War And the only answer is intense military and economic pressure to force Russia to step back. But he said he was upbeat about Ukraine's chances of winning the war. Will we lose? Of course not, because we are fighting for Ukraine's independence. I believe and have long believed that Putin has already begun this war, and we're preventing it from becoming a broad, full-scale third world war. A couple of headlines for you this hour. where the president of Mexico has praised the army operation that led to the death of one of the world's most powerful drug lords, El Mencho, and the International Criminal Court has opened hearings to decide if the former Philippine president, Rodrigo Duterte, should face trial for crimes against humanity. You're listening to NewsHour live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Leila Nathu. In Mexico, where the government's been under pressure from the US to step up its fight against drug cartels, one of the country's most wanted drug lords has been killed in a military raid. Officials told one news agency in the last half an hour or so that at least 27 officials and 30 cartel members died in that operation. Nemesio Oseguera, known as El Mencho, was a notorious underworld figure, the long-standing leader of one of Mexico's most powerful gangs, the Jalisco New Generation cartel. He was targeted in an operation for which the US said it provided intelligence support. But his death has triggered a wave of violence across the country, with armed groups blockading highways and setting fire to buildings and vehicles across several states. In the popular beach resort of Puerto Vallarta, residents and tourists describe the city looking like a war zone, Wesley Yore is an American actor who lives there for six months a year, and he is there now. He told us what he'd seen. There were, I think, 17 buses set on fire to stop the roads and to create havoc. And the fires were all over town. In fact, where I'm staying, I'm in the romantic zone, which is right smack dab in the tourist area. And a block away, suddenly there was a huge fire. Then another block away, there was another fire. We see these billows of black smoke. It's terrifying because this is just something so unexpected. One of the major pharmacies, Pharmacy of Guadalajara, which is one of the big chains here, there's a huge store a couple blocks away. It's been set on fire. And the AXOs, which are like 7-Elevens and the convenience stores, there's several in the neighborhood that have been burned. And it's not just in Puerto Vallarta, but Guadalajara and all of Jalisco, which is the state, Bucerías and all the different, you know, Colima and all these different cities, they're facing some of the same things. Well, the Secretary of National Defense in Mexico, General Ricardo Treviatrejo, has just been briefing the press. As you well know, the intelligence process is complex. You need a lot of time. It means getting lots of information, evidence from different places, national sources, international sources, countries that share information. We have strengthened our relationships with the United States and it's important sharing information. Well, Mexico's President Claudia Scheinbaum has praised the army. But in the past hour, President Trump has written on social media that Mexico must step up its efforts on cartels and drugs. Let's speak to Andalusia Soloff, a freelance journalist living outside Mexico City. Welcome to NewsHour Andalusia. We heard a flavour there of the situation on the coast, but are things under control in Mexico City where you are? Um, yes, they are, as of this morning, there have not been many reports of the kind of violence that we saw yesterday. I do think it is very important to mention that the amount of violence that we did see this Sunday is unprecedented, that there have been incidents where when the son of El Chapo was detained or other violent incidences that have caused these kind of narco blockades, but they are usually concentrated to one region of the country. And yesterday we saw it throughout the entire country. In Mexico City, the only incident was that there was a really large police mobilization because the body of Oseguera was brought to Mexico City. But other than that, there were not really any incidents. But I am right outside the city in Morelos. And there have been reports of similar to what your guest said in Puerto Vallarta on a much smaller scale. But also, it's been very difficult to verify what is true and what is not. In social media, there is always videos that circulate, you know, saying, oh, the AXO, you know, the 7-Eleven kind of sword was attacked. And it's unclear if that is true. But it is also important to mention that schools are canceled. In Mexico City, public transportation and schools are continuing with normal service. But here in Morelos, where I am, schools are canceled. Most of the buses going to the state of Guerrero, which is next door and historically a very violent state and where there were violent incidents yesterday in the port city of Acapulco was cancelled. So there is really it is to see what will happen and what if this large scale violence we saw yesterday will continue today. And should we take that, how widespread the violence has been across the country as a reflection of the importance of El Mencho to the Mexican drugs trade? Yes, the Jalisco cartel is incredibly powerful and how they got that power was taking over territory from other smaller drug cartels. This map came out yesterday, which many people just thought was ironic. It was dark red for all the states that were controlled by the Jalisco New Generation cartel. And then it was light red, which were like six states ahead of 32 that were just controlled, somewhat controlled, Meaning that there's no state that is not controlled by them. There's just some states that are very controlled by them and some that are a little less controlled. So yes, there is a large impact. And also knowing who will take over now, there is no clear leader that will follow in his path. And we have seen over the past two years in Sinaloa, following a division within the Sinaloa cartel involving a detention that was orchestrated by the United States of Mayo Zambada, there has been unprecedented violence in Sinaloa. as the two factors of the Sinaloa cartel by power, we see that this is what could happen, that there could be an increased violence in Mexico because generally this kingpin strategy of taking out the leader never produces peace. It usually produces more violence. So it could lead to far more uncertainty and unpredictability within Mexico. We're starting to hear a few more details now about that operation that did eventually result in his death. The US, it seems, was instrumental in handing over intelligence. How common is it for the US to be working with the Mexican authorities in that way? Well, for the past 50 years, and especially since the official war on drugs was declared, the US has always been providing intelligence to the Mexican government. The Mexican government usually does not want that to be public. We have all seen it on the Narcos series, which is largely true. However, it glorifies Narcos lives and many things we could say about it. But the intelligence aspects are largely true. And we can then see that over the past year since Donald Trump took office, he declared the cartel as a terrorist organization. So the US has really put a lot more pressure and been more involved in cracking down. Andalusia, thanks so much. We're going to have to leave it there. Andalusia Solof, freelance journalist speaking to NewsHour from Mexico City on the impact of that killing of Mexico's drug lord. And that's it from us at NewsHour. Thanks for listening. In the US, increasing numbers of Americans are embracing Russian orthodoxy. Many new converts say the churches they were raised in are too woke, and they're looking for a faith which promotes traditional values. I'm Lucy Ash. Join me to find out more. Listen now by searching for The Documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.