Chaka Khan's "I'm Every Woman" with Danyel Smith

Hey, One Song Nation. This week, we are revisiting another of our favorite episodes where we break down Shaka Khan's I'm Every Woman. And to help us break it down, we had our good friend, the journalist and podcaster, Danielle Smith, join the show. And spoiler alert, the power of Shaka's isolated vocals brought a tear to the eyes of everyone in the room. That's right. We'll be back next week with a very unique episode. But until then, enjoy our One Song episode on I'm Every Woman. Oh. Kitty. A great story like Monster's Inc. stays with you forever. And Disney Plus is where you'll find your next great story. From the return of the award-winning hit series, Rivals. Welcome to the naughtiest show on television. To the unmissable crime drama, High Potential. Gotta dead body, gotta go. A lifetime of great stories awaits. This spring on Disney Plus, 18 Plus. Subscription required. T's and C's apply. Luxury. Today's song is from one of the most dynamic, most legendary singers of all time. This disco crossover hit launched her solo career and reached number one on the Hot Soul singles chart in 1978. And it's been deemed one of the greatest dance songs of all time. We know you've heard it in plenty of TV shows, movies and parties. Diallo, her song became an anthem for female empowerment. Diversity, resilience and self-love. For five decades, she has been a trailblazer for women in music, breaking down barriers with her dynamic voice and powerful stage presence. It's one song and that song is I'm Every Woman by Shaka Khan. I'm actor, writer, director and sometimes DJ, Diallo Riddle. And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter and musicologist Luxury, aka the guy who whispers interpolation on the internet. And if you want to watch one song, please go to our YouTube channel and watch this full episode. All right, let's start. Okay, well, we've got one hell of an episode for you for our long time listeners. You know we mentioned Shaka any chance we get. It's true. She is really the gold standard for me when it comes to the human voice. For us. And we can be done with it, yeah. Yeah, and today we're joined by a trailblazing journalist who might be just the perfect guess to talk about Shaka Khan with. She's the author of the award-winning book, Shine Bright, a very personal history of black women and pop and the creator and host of the NAACP Image Award-nominated podcast, Black Girl Songbook, which focuses on the stories of black women in music. Also, she's the former culture editor at ESPN, the editor-in-chief of Vi, the editor of Billboard. And if that wasn't enough, the New Yorker has called her one of the nation's most astute chroniclers of pop and hip-hop culture. Danielle Smith, welcome to the show. Hey everybody. Did we get all the accolades? There's so many more. We can't say everything. It's too much. We've got to stop. Like we've got to stop. I didn't know you were Vi's first African-American editor. Is that true? I am in fact. I am in fact. Who was editing before you? Well, there was Jonathan Van Meter. Okay. Was the first and founding editor-in-chief of Vi. And then there was the great Alan Light. Yeah, Alan Light, sure. Alan was my boss. Okay, so these are good. They are. And Alan is my heart. D.I. goes both ways, I guess is all I'm saying. I was just curious because I didn't know that. I was one of your readers at the time and I just knew it was Quintz's magazine. It was. But yeah, definitely. I am the first woman and the first black person to be editor-in-chief of Vi. Okay, so first of all, I want to talk about your book a little bit. You talk a lot about credit in your book. Typically, black musicians being credited and even more specifically, female black musicians going uncredited or insufficiently credited. There's one quote of yours I found. I think you were interviewed in Pitchfork. Black pop is shot through with the spirit of reparations from the blues, jazz, and the early R&B era. I'm paraphrasing a little bit. Didn't mean to mangle your words because your prose is beautiful. Thank you, though. Absolutely. Where so many artists were just robbed of money, of credit, of cultural status, and of their dreams coming true. We talk a lot about that on this show. I felt like this would be a perfect entree for talking about Chaka. Do you feel like she has gotten her due? Is there something about Chaka in particular on this topic that you want to talk about? Well, first, just let me say how happy I am to be here. Like, it's just good to talk about music at any time, especially with people who love and respect it as much as you guys do. So I just really, it's much appreciated. I'm so happy to be here. If you're asking me if Chaka Khan has received the credit that she is due in the music world, then the answer is absolutely not. I would also say that most black women who make music, especially soul music and pop music, classical music, jazz music, it doesn't matter. They are not receiving the credit that they're due, which is not to say that they're not receiving credit. It's that they're not receiving the credit that they are due for the impact that they have had and the influence that they have had. Absolutely. I mean, you can think of anything. You can go back to, is it Van Morrison, na na na na na? Are we just the same? I mean, that's Whitney Houston's mom singing that chorus. Oh, wow. That's her and her sweet inspirations. And that is what we think about when we think about that song from Van. I had no idea. I didn't know that. That's Whitney Houston's mom and her sweet inspirations. That's Sissy Houston? Yeah, Sissy Houston and the sweet inspirations are singing background on that song. Did not know that. So we're already, I see our producer's mouth is a gap right now. I think there's some facts in your head that you'd be amazed or like, even with self-proclaimed music, we do not know these facts. I knew a lot about Sissy Houston, but I did not know that. And then everybody goes, oh, Counting Crows and that amazing song that sounds just like Van Morrison. It's like, well, do they sound like Van Morrison or do they sound like Sissy? Do you originally get buried and then they get erased from these people? And Shion Brite, you tell these under the radar stories of black women who shaped America's music into what we know it as today. You're talking about Chaka's contemporaries like Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight and Patty LaBelle. You're talking about her family. You weave your personal connection to these women and their songs into the book. How did you choose which artists to talk about and which stories to tell? The people I wanted to talk about, the women I wanted to talk about, the women who I loved and my sister loved, who my mom and her sister loved and who my grandmother and her sister loved. Those women, like, I heard all the time in whatever household I was in as a kid or a teenager, it just makes up my own personal life soundtrack. And I wanted to talk about those women because believe me, at the beginning of writing Shion Brite, I was trying to write about every single black woman that's had a top ten pop hit since like 1940. And I was trying to include every single person in my editor, Chris Jackson, at One World was like, okay, so what we're not going to do is... He was like, this is not a set of Encyclopedia. So I had to narrow it down and it was heartbreaking. I really wish in my book, I was talking about Chaka Kamor, but I grew up in a Whitney Houston household and a Nally Cole household. And you know, every household had their favorites. I love Chaka. She's a personal favorite. I wish I had written more about her and Shion Brite. Yeah, I mean, we were wondering if that was one of the reasons you wanted to talk about her on our show because you weren't able to talk about her so much in the book. We put it in the index and we were like, huh, it's not in here. Yeah, there's not a lot. And I consider myself to be like... I can't believe I'm going to say it out loud, but I'm just going to go on ahead and say it. I consider myself to be quite the Whitney Houston scholar. There's no doubt about that. I would say the same about Janet Jackson. And then I would also squeeze in there, Mariah Carey. I'm not a Chaka Kam scholar. I am a Chaka Kam lover. Yes. Well, here's the good news. After this episode, you will be a Chaka Kam scholar. Okay, because listen, I'm going to be sitting back listening to you guys. Because you were talking about album cuts and I was like, ooh. Let me find out. Do you find yourself sometimes needing to separate the two, like especially as a journalist, especially with your history of interviewing these people? Does it sometimes you have to save a place so that the music connection you have that might be so emotional that you don't change it potentially by knowing too much or even knowing the person? My love for, say, Whitney Houston, it can't ever really probably be changed. Barring unforeseen news of some kind. I could know every single thing about her from embryonic days to the very last day. But the thing is, I have to choose the people, though, that I am going to be scholarly about. Yes. Because if I spread myself too thin, then I'm going to end up knowing very little about everybody, which is cool. I love a good generalist. I do. But for me, I like being able to say, if you want to ask somebody about Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, and Mariah Carey, you should probably ask Daniel. Before we dive into I'm Every Woman, I wanted to ask you, Daniel, how did you discover Chaka? I mean, you've kind of hinted, but what was the first exposure and what does I'm Every Woman mean to you? My name is Daniel Smith and I am a California girl. There you go. Born and raised in the great country of California and take some pride in it. Yeah. As a kid, I had a real fascination with songs that had any California reference. So, California Dreamin', Hotel California, I left my heart in San Francisco. Oh, great one. Do you know the way to San Jose? Dionne Warwick, do you know the way to San Jose? And then we get to Chaka kind of Hollywood. These old ways going to Hollywood is wasn't it to Hollywood? Showing the ways moving to Hollywood is helping it to Hollywood. Oh, wow. It's sort of a, not forgotten, but I think you have to live in a town that does, like, you know, that quiet, storm, old school mix of music because that is not the current go-to for the Ruvus featuring Shaka. Shout out to KACE, Southern California's finest. I had a real fascination with Chaka Con's Hollywood as it related to what is my favorite song of all time, which is Gladys Night in the Pips, Midnight Train in Georgia. Wow. Yeah, there's never any question that doesn't change. It's so it shall be forever because Hollywood seemed like he was going to Hollywood and then Gladys had the, he's going back south. So in my, in my, right? It was one dude, it was one story. No, but even right now in my mind it's the same dude because the songs are being played around the same time. And I just had in my mind that Shaka was seeing him off and Gladys was seeing him home. Seeing him home. Yeah. Do you think that while he was here he was listening to Hollywood swinging? Probably. I think that might be the middle piece. No, but let me tell you something and why not? Shout out to KUNGA. Absolutely. I'm going into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame this year as a matter of fact, but yes. So that was me, Hollywood. And there was something about that song that was like, if you were an ambitious girl, which I've been since even having any consciousness of like who I am and what I'm about. And you're sort of singing about ambition, but like through the idea of this guy. When really I think it was her. It was her. Yeah. Hollywood representing ambition, like escape. Yes. Living your dreams. Yes, but it wasn't as comfortable for women and black women to sing about it. Like that just the same way with Midnight Training Georgia. It wasn't because I don't believe that Gladys got on the train with them. I think Gladys saw her off. She never says in the record. That's true. I hadn't thought about that. She never says it. I wanted to talk a little bit with you about, you talk about in your book, the history of pop music, this great quote throughout the history of pop music, it is the rich, high, strong female voice, which is the prize. Yes. Love that line. Love it to me. Cause you're talking about across gender. You mentioned from Frankie Valley and like into the Bee Gees, right? Yes. Even high voices, Michael Jackson, Michael Bolton, George Michael. Yes. There's, these are potentially people capable of singing lower, but they choose to go high. Yes. It does pop off the radio. But the fact that it is a female register is so interesting. And to connect that to Shaka and then comes the question, sorry for the long buildup. I found this really interesting interview between Joni Mitchell, also be talking about and Shaka in interview last year. Joni says, when I first heard Shaka, I thought it was Stevie Wonder. And Shaka goes, most people thought I was a man. I had never really thought about that. So there's potentially a bit of a gender reversal in Shaka. She's got this rich, strong, powerful voice. So people talk about range and, and the highest is always prize. And once the whistle register, oh my God, the whistle register. But I like the way you feel and see. And it's like, yeah, but can you listen, how long can you listen to the whistle? Right. Many reprudent throws it once every album or two. Yes. You have to be, you have to, you know, every once in a while. And I dole it out. But Shaka starting down here, it's like Gladys. We don't always have to be way up here. I'm sure when Shaka feels like reaching, she can get pretty, pretty high. She sure can. But when she's singing big, long and loud, if this is hi-hi and this is Lolo, and she's singing right here, she's a monster. She's got, we're going to be listening to all of those voices too when we get to this time. So we are so excited to dig into this song. We're going to hear the Lolo's, the whoa, whoa, whoa, right? She's doing that. And she's also belting. She's doing it all. We talk on the show about like the difference, how different singers can have different strengths and qualities. And I was like, I love how like wispy and gentle, mini-ripperton sounds. Love and you is easy cause you're beautiful. And I love how like, you know, big and like strong and like the term always come back to his brassy. There's like a certain note that Shaka hits on several of her songs. I noticed that there are a couple of my favorites and it always strikes me as brassy. And then to find out that the two of them were playing a gig together in the early days. And that was one of the shows where she catches like Turner's attention and he tries to fly her out to, you know, Los Angeles and he says, Hey, I want you to be one of the I gets. It's just funny that mini-ripperton is at that point in her career. I think the show is in Chicago, mini-ripperton with one group and a Shaka with another group. But there's like, they're at the very beginning and I'm like, you know, two different voices and styles couldn't, you know, exist. But like black people are digesting both and enjoying both. Yes. Yes. So, but like cyborg. So I was just out here collecting I Kets. Apparently he was inviting people to become I Kets and she said she turned him down. No, yes. Yes. A few weeks after. I wonder why. No, probably worked out quite well for her. According to our research, there was a talent agent. He booked Ask Rufus, which was the name of the group at the time. And they also booked Rotary Connection, which had mini-ripperton. And so they're both sitting on this card and there was a guy there who named Bob Monaco. He has the booking company. He's like, I could get a check her out. Ike flies her out to Englewood, ironically, at a place called Bollock Sound. And he offered her on the spot to be a Nica and she declined. Apparently she was, she was happy to just stick with Rufus. So before we get into how I'm every woman was made, we still got to talk about Shaka Khan's origin story. She started singing as a child on the South Side Chicago South Side and was influenced by Gladys Knight and Billie Holiday. She formed a girl group with her sister called the Crystalettes and she joined the Black Panther Party as a teenager. This woman has lived many, many lives. All right, let's talk a little bit about Yvette Stevens, her birth name. She's actually named in a Yoruba ceremony. Her full name is Shaka Adune Adufe Yamuja Hodo Haru Karifakan, which is amazing and powerful. But anyway, her given name, Yvette, came after a Stan Getz song. Her dad loved saxophone music and loved Stan Getz. So her voice comes from horns. Alto Sax is mainly something I've heard her say in an interview. That almost makes sense with the way she sings. When she thinks about singing, she's thinking like a jazz saxophone player. And we're going to talk about jazz on this episode in a big way. But she worked with Miles Davis. They worked on the album Tutu, among other things. And she said that Miles paid her the highest compliment when he said she sounded like his horn, his muted horn. And she just took that to heart and is living with that, like, satisactorally for the rest of her day. Absolutely. Yeah, it's quite a compliment. So by the way, she's got a sister. She's Yvette, her sister's Yvonne, who goes by Takabum. Just a little fun fact, she was briefly in a group called The Undisputed Truth, who have a really amazing song I got to play for you called You Plus Me Equals Love from 1976. And it must be said that her brother is also a musician, and he co-wrote this song. What? Doing Debuts by EU is a co-write with Mark Stevens. Yeah. And Mark Goodsmiller. There are still parties you can play in my hometown where Debuts still goes off, still goes off. Okay, first of all, there's a million of those parties. They don't have enough parties. There was a point where there was like prime time you could slip it into the mix. Yeah, it's like you kind of have to be a certain age, but like, you know, it's still at the right cookout, at the right picnic, you can still pop. I was about to say, I think I'm that certain age though. Now, I'm going to seem like the resident idiot here, but for most of my life, I thought that Rufus was a guy in the group. I thought Rufus was the... Did you think it was Rufus Thomas? I thought it was Rufus. I thought it was Rufus. It's called Rufus. I figured like, okay, so there's a band leader named Rufus Bishaka as the star. It turns out that that is not the case. Rufus is a group that starts out there originally called Ask Rufus. They got their title from a classified ad for a mechanic. Luxury, can you walk us through sort of Shaka joining the group and the hits that they then produced? Listen, I think we're going to do a real brief run through because there's... Yeah, this could be a whole other episode. This could be its own episode. The number of band members in Rufus is insane. That would take an hour just to list everyone who was in the band. But this is Chicago band, 1973 to 83. Just, they were huge. They had three consecutive number one billboard R&B toppers. But their biggest song possibly, and certainly my favorite by a country mile. This might even be my favorite Shaka song is this one. She's an instrument. Is it they? My favorite. That might be my favorite. That song was on a Grammy. It was a Grammy vocal performance by a duo, Gruppro Chorus 1975. Should be noted in case you didn't already know, that's a Stevie Wonder song. But in an interview I heard recently, Shaka says that she co-wrote the lyrics, but she was young and didn't understand publishing. So in her mind, she goes, I gave Stevie all the credit because I was so honored to work with him. Which is so sweet. Let's be sure to give Shaka Khan her credit as a songwriter because she's writing songs. Yes, she's not always writing songs. I think I should get a portion of the IP for this song that has been made millions of dollars. She's in a club of so many women who were just honored to work with such and such and such and such. And their contributions should have been intellectual property, which would have been mailbox money for life. For life. They're like, oh no. I always think about on the old 45s where I had the songwriting credits in the parentheses underneath the song title. And it's like, as a kid, I was always like, well, why isn't that the same name as the person who's singing that's singing it? Right. And so then you live and learn. And when I just think about like, just off the top of my head, Deionne Warwick. I was thinking her exactly as you said that. And we're doing it for the same reason. Yeah, it's like, so Deionne never wrote. I just find that she's not even all the time down as vocal and range or like. Because the definition of writing is lyrics and melody, but it doesn't include the other choices that are made creatively, phrasing, syncopation, all the subtle things that, you know, even 1% would be mailbox money for life. We talked about this on the Doja Cat episode because when you hear Paint the Town Red and you hear Deionne Warwick's voice, you're hearing the sample throughout the song. And it's a person who hasn't made a dime off of that, off of that version of the song or the original. She wasn't paid anything because she wasn't considered a writer. And I think that's criminal. No, it's criminal. It makes me. Not cool back. Right. It's that combination of like anger and heartbreak for me with this kind of thing. Because I know how hard those women worked in those studios. Chaka starts her solo career while she's still in Rufus. What motivated her to make her own music? We can kind of take a guess. I mean, like we know that like at some point the label was like, it's not ask Rufus, it's Rufus. Okay, it's not Rufus. It's Rufus featuring Chaka Knot. Right. And then one point is like Rufus and Chaka Knot. Let's make sure to get Chaka in front when they take the pictures. Everyone else is blurred out. It's this classic thing where it's intended to be a band. And Chaka talks all the time about how she loves bands and being part of a team. And she didn't want to be singled out and it caused tension as you can imagine. Yeah. And many other things let more tension over the years. She's making the cover of Jet, you know, like she's anybody who read Jet. You know, she's like beauty of the week every week. You know, like it's like, she's taking the world. Magnetic. Yes. Absolutely. And listen, we are going to give flowers to Bobby Watson and all the proud members of Rufus. Not all 20 though. We don't have time to listen to all of them. But I sort of feel like fellas, you know, this is the woman who is sort of setting the plate. You know, we're going to get into all. But also it was the era of the black band, everybody from lakeside to earth, one in fire on and on and on and on. And, you know, the Commodores, everybody and folks were realizing that people are sort of their charisma is causing them to be chosen. Sometimes by themselves. Remember, it was what was it? Theodore Pindagrass, Jr. You guys talking about Teddy? Yeah, we're going to go to Harold Melvin in the blue notes. Yes. It's like people were emerging. That one concert, that one performance on Soul Train is very tense. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Like Harold Melvin was like, I'm Harold Melvin. Exactly. So I just feel like there was a moment where we were merging like we were, it was a transition from the era of the black band, even the Texan Five. Yes. The era of the black band to the era of the black star, the solo pop star, the Supremes, even getting out of bands and just going into groups. Like people were emerging. I'm paying 36 people back here. Right. Listen, and that did have something to do with it. Yeah, there's economic reasons for it. There's economic impact. Yeah, when you split that money that many ways. So you have this person who originally joins the group as the singer who is now becoming absolutely a star into her own right. And now she's going solo. After the break, we'll dive into how I'm Every Woman Who's Made and we'll be right back. Hi there. Welcome back to one song, My Man Lectury. My Man Diablo. I'm Every Woman is on Chaka's first solo album named Chaka. She's still in Rufus when this album gets made. Right. Tell us how did I'm Every Woman, the song, get made. Let's talk about I'm Every Woman. So she's working with Arif Martin, who is a Turkish producer, worked at that land of records for 30 years along with his homie Erdogan. That's how he got the job. Now, this is he's a classic producer or ranger in the old school tradition where he's not himself a songwriter or musician, but he brings everyone together. He brings the best of the best. And that means the best musicians, the best songs. So the rep, we were talking earlier about the jazz tradition. So every song in this record, they're all written by other people. So he's worked with Aretha, Donnie Hathaway at this point, Bee Gees, Queen and average white band who will come into play in this song. Interestingly enough, in a few places, he referred to Shaka as his instrument. So in a way, he kind of thinks of her voice in the same way that he's thinking of the drummers, drums and the bass players bass. He's thinking sonically. How does this all fit together? And he also brings in two of my favorite people, Nick Ashford and Valerie Simpson. Let's talk about Ashford and Simpson. You know, I feel like this was everybody's favorite couple in music. You know what I mean? Even before Solid as a Rock, these were some people who produced one of my favorite garage classics. And we're going to talk a little bit about garage, garage classics, a song called Boozy Boozy that was wearing my life. Yes, you're wearing your Larry LeVon. People watching on YouTube, you're getting a little bit extra because he's got Larry LeVon, the famous Paradise Garage DJ on his shirt. Ashford and Simpson make a great song. Everybody wants to be just great. Boozy Boozy. Yeah, exactly. By the way, I like the instrumental, but they made the music in the way. They did. Also, I feel it's interesting that Ashford and Simpson were chosen for Chaka's debut because they were chosen for Diana Ross's debut with Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand. So I feel like that was a look. They were the go-to. Yeah, that was a look. Is this a New York scene? I feel like this is very New York-y. It's New York-y. It's very New York-y. Yeah. And it's very, Ashford and Simpson still had to dust the Motown from all those early like Tammie Terrell, Monday Gay songs. They did A No Mountain High Enough, A Nothing But The Real. They did the Aint songs, the Motown Aint songs. You know what I mean? Just some light work. Just some light work. No big deal. Just some light work. What a deal. Well, okay, so he's gathered these great people together. So this song is written by Valerie Simpson who's playing piano one day. Woo. And she's playing the piano part that you're about to hear isolated. Now, of course, it's not recorded by her. But picture her playing that piano line. And Nick hears it and starts singing along. He comes up with the I'm Every Woman line, which is really interesting because he is not a woman, interestingly. But when she heard him say it, they both realized something clicked like the sound, the lyric, everything about it was perfect. The first instant it came into being. So he comes up with that first line that became the iconic title. And Valerie in an interview said, I immediately knew it was a great title. It was one of those things that just came together, but we were having trouble with the verse. So Valerie says, I told him to put his hand on his hip and dig into his feminine side. I love this. And it will be there. And that's where he came and then it worked. Oh, it worked. So that's how the song came together. Valerie on piano and Nick on lyrics and they wrote I'm Every Woman. Let's get to the synths. Where should we start? How about we start with the drums? Let's do it. All right. Well, on drums, we have Steve Ferroni from Average White Band. Just basic disco groove. 113 BPM. Nothing super fancy going on, but you don't need much. This is a groove. I'm dancing on the inside. Everyone's happy. Everyone's angry. Little ghost notes come in here. Right. Little... Little thingies in there. So he's doing that all through the beginning of the song. In the second verse, he throws in a little bit of a 16th note. You'll hear that. That right there. Real subtle things on top of a strict four on the floor groove. Nothing too fancy. But it's a little bit of a build. It's a little bit of a build. It's a tiny build. And then we add the open hi-hat and then you will have heard all the things the drums do. So let's listen to that in the second chorus. Classic disco. By the way, did you notice that he doesn't start the open hat right away? No, I think it's all part of the build. And I think it's very intentional. I feel like there's a song that builds in very subtle ways over the course from the beginning to the middle to the end. Oh, absolutely. It's got a huge build. And just one thing I wanted to point out with that is that these are all session guys. I'll name them as we go. But what happens in these especially kind of classic 70s New York recording studio, let's get a reef mardin. Let's get the best and the brightest in and give them a chart and have them hear the song. They may have only heard the song for the first time on a demo tape minutes before they got to their stations to play. So what you hear as we listen along is a lot of like kind of finding ideas and like maybe abandoning them and trying something else. You'll especially hear that on guitar, but I heard it on drums a little bit. I hear him going like, oh, how about a little bit of a ghost note? Okay, I'll keep using that. I think that's really interesting. That's also of its era. This is there's no looping. We're not in the digital age where you take the one perfect four bar loop and then you just cut and paste it all the way. No. Okay, so this is excellent. Yeah, this is amazing. So yeah, you just throw the drums and really I could go home. No, because guess what? Yeah, now we're going to hear the bass. No, because is this the nerdiest music show? I mean, we'd love to think that it is. And if you say so, it's giving. It is. It is. It is in the very best way. You've not even really seen us there yet. I haven't really, right? I haven't. I'm just at the beginning. Okay, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. My man, luxury. What's going on with the bass stems? The man on bass is Willie and you all know who he is not just from the hundreds of famous songs he's played on as a session player, but he's also Dave Letterman's bass player in the world's most dangerous band. And this is him playing with a really interesting effect on his bass, which I think is the chorus effect or a digital delay, MXR digital delay. And here he is. Add some drums back right here. It's just a stone groove. It's just a stone groove. So it's like the best thing in the world. In some ways it's almost an anonymous groove because usually I can hear these parts, these stems and be like, oh, that's the part of the song. There that could be any number of songs. It really could be. Yeah, it's because there's actually only one section where there are chord changes. Like we're kind of just locked into the root note this whole time. Boom, boom. I also think that that piano and eventually those strings because I gotta talk about those strings. I am such a fan of the strings. We're gonna get to that. Be patient. The piano and the strings are really just, they're working it for me. And I might ask you to do something in particular once we get to it. But you're nailing it because the bass, the drums and even the guitars are really just a rhythmic bed and you could almost have any disco top line on top. But it's when that piano comes in that you'll start to hear the song. But first there's a little, some delicious, some delicious, delicious moments. I was mentioning before that in the chorus we've got the single, it's just one chord. So there's no harmonic variety. But we do have some fun moments in the transition from the verse to the chorus. And here that is on bass and drums. Just a little nice melodic. Yeah. I'm gonna play you one other thing. By the way, we were talking about before how the process of making this is again, they may have just heard the song. Maybe for the first time ever that morning, given a chart, here's how the song is arranged. You play these parts and then the assignment a little bit for Will Lee for the drummer for the bass player for everyone is to mess around with it. Like take that as a starting point. Yes. And every now and then there's moments that are imperfect and we love that because it just shows in this day and age everything's protooled. That for classic iconic songs, there can be little clams, little imperfections. So here's where Will Lee drops a note by mistake. Come on, Will. I'll point it out. It's not there intentionally. I'll play it in the mix with the drums. It was just a moment and they left it because it was like, yeah, it's fine. And it never happens again. This is just my theory. Like when something like that happens, it's just a little clam and you just leave it. Maybe James Brown finds you 50 bucks, but not in this case. We do a lot of conjecture on this show. Conjecture is fun. But our lawyers are at the ready. Storytelling. Storytelling. It's storytelling. Listen, that's the baseline. There's one last part I'll play and then we'll get into the delicious piano. In the last minute and a half of a song, Shaka goes crazy and we will be hearing all of her vocals in a moment. But the rest of the band is just kind of vamping. They're just going between these two chords. So to make it interesting, you kind of like play around a bit. So this is Will Lee meandering. Well, you didn't have to hit those notes, but he wanted to. He wrote about five new songs in that little meandering. Sounds great. You didn't know where he was going either until he got there. But that's why you got the call in those days, right? Yes, that's why you got the call. Why you got the call? Because people knew you. They could trust you to use your imagination to be like confident about being creative. Like, I love my time. Yeah. I do. I love my era. I love the era of sampling. I love the era of looping. It's its own genius and creativity. It's its own genius. That's right. It's a different thing. But I also, this is the music of my childhood. And it's like, when you hear it broken out the way you're breaking it out right now. Like, honestly, it's emotional because you hear the work. Yeah. You really do hear the work. It's amazing. You hear lyricism and things other than the lyrics. You know, you hear that little piece. And by the way, some of this goes back to the fact that like, we don't really do bands in any genre of music now. Like everybody's a solo artist. Oh, it modernized. Yeah. They said like there wasn't one band in the Billboard Top 100 recently. And when there's just one person essentially sitting in a laptop and you don't get those like little flourishes as much, you know, like, we're like, oh, I'm just the bass player. Okay. So I'm going to make this bass really stand out. Like, you don't get all of that. And to that piano because that piano is doing amazing, amazing work. And let's remember that the song begins life when Valerie Simpson was playing the piano. She's not on this track. It's Richard T. Shout out to Richard T. But shout out to Valerie Simpson. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Love that. And Richard T added a little bit of sauce. So let's listen to him. Let's do that. That's all I need. Like, that could have been the song. I'd still be here. Woo! Sounds like a mashers at work house remix or something. It's so house music. Listen to that. It's so house music. Listen to that. Before there was house. It sounds so happy. Well, but it's also garage. It just sounds like happiness. It does. It sounds like great. It just sounds like. It sounds like gospel. It's gospel. I was just going to say. But it's got that beat. Yes. Give us some more. Give us some more. It really is the best. It is gospel. There is no doubt about it. It is gospel, right? Gospel into disco into house. Woo! But garage was dance music with instruments and then with house, they did it on electronics. That's what he would do. And to add another layer, because we talk about this on this show, the intertextuality of it all, and you're doing it at the garage, which is the church of music. And he is the DJ, the preacher. But it was also a garage. He was literally a garage. Right? Literally a garage. Right? So the combination of these things, there really is a religiosity to it. Like, it's ecstasy. Yes. Can we hear some more piano, please? Ecstatic piano coming up, my friend. This is so fun. So this is the same section I was playing for you before, where the bass gets a little crazy going into the chorus. That's like one of the most musically interesting moments because the rest of it is damping on the groove. Here's what the piano does in one of those moments. I just feel we should be dancing. I don't get up and dance. It sounds so good. I have a question. What does that sound? I think it's giving me Donald Bird love has come around. If anybody knows that song. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing in some of that piano build. What a great song. I did not even think that was the title of that song. You don't remember that? No, I remembered it when you started singing it, but I didn't remember the title. I'll play the section of it because it's one of my favorite songs of all time. I love that song. You do hear it though. By the way, it's not even saying that they sound like, I'm saying like they've got the same vibe. They've got that same good energy. Yes. No, you're absolutely right. And the sound of the piano chords, that rhythm, which we are all connecting kind of collectively. It's like this is 1978. There is no house music yet, but there's about to be. And in the meantime, there's disco and this is the lineage. And it's the piano is one of one of the things that ties it together. So let's hear some more of that delicious piano. That's the more delicious piano. Delicious piano. Another one of those connecting of the vamps sections where we have a little bit of harmony happening, harmonic interest. Here's the last one. Give me some drums for that. So I'll put some drums onto that. Here's that same part with drums because there's a little tom buildup and a fill on the bass. They're all messed around. So they're like three minutes into the song and they're just like, we get to have fun now. They're partying. They're partying. I'm going to isolate that bass fill because that's another hook. We kind of drops out there too. I might have been a little clam. Well, Lee, I'm finding a couple of clams in here. It might have been intentional if it happens more than once. I don't know. That's a different part. I don't think it's intentional, but well, I don't know why. So it didn't break the song. Throwing salt on your name. It didn't break anything. I'll throw the vocals in there so you know what part we're in. Little tease of the vocals to come. Let me tell you something. We're not going to talk about that vocal just yet. I will literally start crying on this podcast. I will do it. I will do it. I will do it. I will not. I will not. I will not feel ashamed if I do it. I will not feel ashamed because it's too pretty. OK, so let's talk a little bit about guitar. We've got two guitar players here. One is Hamish Stewart, another average white band performer. He's also on Pick Up the Pieces. And we also have Phil Uptchurch on the second guitar who also plays on Michael Jackson's Work and Day and Night. Nice. Here's the first of the two guitar parts. And the other guitar is doing this. So they're kind of playing off each other. Oh, by the way, I like those guitars because it sounds like Nile and Bernard from Sheik. Yeah, we've definitely got a Nile-ish influence. One of them is a little bit more rhythmic and the other one's just kind of finding a note and staying a little longer. Here's another section. I'll play them one at a time because it's fun to hear them separate. So Rhythmic Guy, I don't know which is which, Hamish or Phil, is doing this. Probably Hamish, right? Because he did the Pick Up the Pieces guitar. And while that's happening, the other guitar is doing this and then I'll play them together and you see how they blend. Let's both of them together with some drums. And let's throw in some bass. Then get the piano. All right. That's good. So that is the underlying rhythm section before we get to the strings and the vocals, which is where... I mean, I was gonna say where the magic happens. We already have magic happening in this amount of track. Absolutely so much magic happening. Let's listen to some strings. These are... I don't have names for who the performers are, but arranged by Arif Mardin and here is the intro. Woo! Right? Epic. I mean, you could call the song there. What is going on? Cinematic. Cinematic. You feel something? It's too much. You're gonna cry. I'm gonna stop. You guys. Wait, wait, wait. It's very you guys. Pump it up in here a little bit. Give us some more strings, bro. Here's another. This is happening in the first verse. This is what's happening under the vocal. I'll play the strings and I'll gradually add something to it. I already love it a bit. No. That is not that long like that on the record. It is. It is. That's really happening. That nice swoop with that long legato. I did not. I did not. I did not hear that. I did not hear it either until I was going through it. What's happening in the song of these beautiful moments? It's like a cartwheel. It's like what are we doing here? It's like how do you not, people say why is music expensive? Why is music? You gotta pay for some bodies in that room. People are working. Yes. I am such a fan of reminding people that people are working. Even when people say oh you know what you guys, I wish that you guys could play the whole song. Yes, we do too but we would also like to see the musicians get paid. I don't even know their names, those string players. I was going to say that when you said that you don't even know their names. I was like, it's disappointing but it also doesn't surprise me that nobody bothered to record like whose play, I hear Violin, I hear cello. There's more than one type of string. They're in a document filed away somewhere. But someone knows. But still. And if you know, go to the comments and let us know because we'd love to know. We'd love to get these people their do. The power of choosing to name or not name means that these individuals may or may not get hired again. Their payment is clearly tied to it being a one time session. We hope they're alive so we can give them their props. But it didn't make it to the album credits because discogs, if you ever look at that, you can actually see the actual album artwork and you can see oh this is what was printed and their names are not printed on it. It's unfortunate because it's a huge part of what makes the song emotional because look at Danielle Smith over there being very emotional. Oh man, very emotional. And I just want to say discogs is your friend. Yeah, it is. If you are a music fan, immediately go to discogs and actually see the CD and the album covers. One to catch a mood. To catch a whole mood and to know just how deep it is to not only have all the musicians and the singers and everything together but also there's a photographer or a graphic artist or whatever who had, or a graphic designer who had to get into the mood and to try to convey what this thing was going to be. There's a version of the song that was only on the Japanese pre- Talk about it. He got it. That's why I was always there because I was always DJ. For any listeners who don't know discogs is a website, it's a crowdsourced website with pretty much every recording released of any music ever because it's crowdsourced. So you have these wonderfully amateur photographs that someone took of their album cover. It's so great. It's so charming. It is. The data that's deeper, that doesn't make it to Wikipedia. I could live in these strings forever. I really want to hear one more but I know that we have to get to the vocals. That's going to be a whole other journey. Let's take that journey. Let's go on that journey. Shall we listen to Shaka Khan? Start the song with the chorus and she is belting what looks like at least two takes. I'm every woman, it's all in me. By the way, there's one more me in there. It sounds like a double. Is that a double? She's doubling herself and she's such a good singer. Her doubles are perfect. Yeah. You don't hear anything that is different between them. But in that last note, what's interesting is she has three different notes. I'll play them separately then together. Here's me. All in me. And then she went back and she did this. That's the one you really hear. And then she went lower and did one more lower harmony. Oh, I can't stand it. Right? It's too much. I need to slow down. It's too much. It's too much. Here is that stack, those three notes together. And now you can hear it. Now, famously Shaka talks about how she was one of the first singers to do her own backing vocals and to actually sort of insist that she be the one to do them. Normally you would have had other singers. And she came in and she wasn't happy with, she tells the story, I don't know what song it was on, but she wasn't happy with the vocalist they had brought in. So she said, ah, let me just do it. And that's what they kept. But now let's hear part B of the chorus, the answer section, which sounds like this. Anything, you're all done, baby. I'll do it naturally. Yeah. And then she does another chorus, another harmony, and then we get some woes. Shall we hear some woes? Is that just her? It's something that's a man voice. So the backing vocals are Shaka with Will Lee, the bass player, and Hamish Stewart, the guitar player. So I think you're right. I think we're hearing all of them in those vocals. Yeah, in the woes. There's a lot of woes in this song. I'm pro woes. I'm pro woes. All right. Well, let's listen to some more Shaka. I got to hear some verse because to me that verse, ah, it's so clean. It's such a clean. So she goes from those big stacks and backing vocalists to just one single, undoubled. Just clean, single, undoubled, yes. For verse one, let's hear that. I can cast a spell, secrets you can't tell, makes a special brew, put fire inside of you, and anytime you feel danger or fear, and stands linked, I will appear called. I can't do it. You're not going to make it to the end of the episode. We have some episodes where it's so hard to react. I'm literally asking producers for a clean next episode. I'll tell you what I hear. I hear influence. And the reason that it makes me emotional, honestly, is because Shaka does not get the credit that she is due. I got to hear the verse two. I can sense your knees like rain on the seeds. I just want to hear that isolated because ever since we chose the song and you chose this song, I want to hear that isolated. Can we hear that verse? Thank you. I can sense your knees like rain onto the seas. It comes to harmony. And make a rhyme of confusion in your mind. And when it comes down to some good old fashioned love, that's what I've got. Oh my gosh. I can't do it with you guys. Cut these mice off. Cut the cameras off. We're a puddle. We're all devastated. We're living in a puddle. She said, I can make a rhyme of confusion. I never understood that line. I spent my whole child. I didn't know what they said, but you get it now. Lock a vision in your mind. I thought maybe lock a vision in your mind. I didn't, you know, I thought she said, I can bring you to your knees like praying onto the seas. I didn't listen. We didn't have the internet back then. You didn't know what it said. I will, I will clear it all up for you, sir. That's what she's saying. She's saying, I will make a poem of your chaos. And she's not even saying it to sir. Because again, now I hear these lyrics. I'm like, she could be helping her daughter. She could be helping her partner. All right. Well, we have to, we have to hear the peak build right before that ending chorus that just goes on and on and on. So let's hear her build to it. This is the bridge into the last chorus. We're not done building. And then we do this modulation. Here it comes. That's the best part. That's the best part. That's the best part right there. Did she know she was going to do that before she did it? Let's just hear it by itself. That's a long note. She goes low with it. It's like a waterfall. That is insane. And I feel like that is the one part where like, when he was like, I ain't touching that part. I'm doing that exactly like her. What else are you going to do? Desend chromatically into that final minute. Can I just say, this is the greatest outro. Because people forget this is not really technically the chorus anymore. We're into the outro of the song. But like, she's just hitting it. Every single bar, just every single bar, just pure clean notes from the queen herself. It's a modulation fake out. It really does. Because it goes up, but then it comes down. You think it's going to go up here. I'll play the piano part and the vocals together. It's fake. It fakes you out all the way to the end. It's two minutes straight of this part. Literally two minutes straight of just this. I'm every woman. I'm every woman. But then we're going to go up three half steps. I'm every woman. I'm every woman. I'm every woman. I'm every woman. I'm every woman. It's two minutes of that. The last two minutes are just that all the way through the fade. The best two minutes. By the way, I say two minutes. That's because we can't play it because we don't have time. But there is more after the fade. I'm sure there's more vocals. There's more strings. There's more piano. There's so much good stuff. We got to move on. There's never enough Chaka. My whole time growing up, I always thought of it as her singing it to a dude saying, like, I'm going to be that supportive woman. But really, you know, coming to it now after, you know, decades of being alive, I'm like, no, just kind of saying that I'm there to support you no matter who you are. Yes, absolutely. I get that energy. I mean, I love the song so much. It was the original title of My Shine Bright. Really? Wow, that makes so much sense. It was originally going to be titled, She's Everyone. Every woman, a very personal history of black women in pop. For a number of reasons, it didn't go that way. And I love that it's called Shine Bright. But that's the energy and plus the combination of Chaka Khan doing it and then Whitney covering it. It's just such a classic black girl anthem. I love Whitney Houston. Whitney Houston is a queen among singers. There is none higher. But Whitney Houston listened to this 40,000,865 trillion times. You can hear it. When you really listen to Whitney's cover, she didn't change the arrangement that much. It's faithful. Chaka gets a credit actually in Whitney's cover that says arrangement by Chaka Khan. Oh, and she should. Whitney probably knew she had to because she didn't want to. I thought that Sissy actually sang a little bit, uncredited on the original I'm Every Woman. So there's a lot of back and forth on the internet. And one of the back and forth includes Chaka herself in an interview saying that both Sissy and Whitney, a young 14-year-old Whitney, are on the song. But then minutes later on a Facebook post, it's like a Guardian interview. What happened? Then a Facebook post later that same day, she goes on to say, oh, I misspoke. I think it was only Sissy. Yeah, she said that Whitney was not on it. It was Sissy. That's right. That's right. Once Whitney decides she's going to sing a Chaka song, which, you know, like, I dare anybody to go up the karaoke and sing a Michael Jackson song, sing a Stevie Wonder song. At the point you decide you're going to sing a Chaka Khan song, you got to be Whitney levels of good. And competent. I think she listened to it however many times that she said. Yes. And dialled it absolutely in. Yes. And I also think just knowing sort of the energy of the women of that era, it was a super competitive scene. Okay, so people who were really good, let's just say Aretha Franklin. Let's just say Whitney Houston. When there were songs that were really like that person's song, whether it was respect from Otis Redding or whether it was I'm Every Woman from Chaka Khan, there was almost a competitive thing like, oh, she think that her song? Yeah. No, no, no, you're onto something with this. You think that's her song? Mm-hmm. Is that what you think? Because I'll sing it. And we don't see whose song it is. And that was always the energy that I got from Whitney Houston's version of I'm Every Woman. Like that song is too good. That song is too associated with Chaka Khan. That and I say this with so much love and respect for Whitney Houston and Chaka Khan, both versions are Hall of Fame versions. But I'm telling you, I hear, I hear Whitney trying to go note for note. And that is something that Whitney Houston does not do. Part of what you're saying that's really resonating for me is because we're obviously, we're talking about two interpreters, both Whitney Houston and Chaka Khan are performers and singers, but not necessarily songwriters. And what they own is the performance and what they own is the song. And this takes us back to the legacy of where cover versions come from. Yes. Because we can't forget that little Richard and Elvis Presley, big mom authority. Can't forget. The legacy of cover versions is white performers that take a song that was originally for a black artist and becoming the one that is known for that song. Yes. And cover, the song itself is what performers in the old days, especially, that's all they had. Yes. Before the Beatles start writing, you know, Dylan, in the 60s, you start writing your own songs. That becomes a choice. But for the pure performers, the ownership of the cover comes from whose song does better. Yes. Because to a lot of people, Whitney, this is Whitney's song. It is. And it's, it's, it's, even when I see, I was watching the video for Whitney Houston's version on the way here. And it's such a great video. Great video. Whitney is at the top of her game. She's in the bodyguard era. She's pregnant in the video. She looks, she's, she's literally, she already usually glows, but she was glowing. And because she was, sometimes she was too thin, you know, but in this, she just looks fleshy and beautiful and amazing. And I see Shaka coming in and in moments and beats. Because she's in the video too, you mean? Yes, she is. And it's a great video. T-boss, all of, at TLC's in there. TLC's in there. Such a great, yes, it's so great. And, and Shaka's reduced to a cameo, though. But she does have, we're going to talk about it. And by the way, I thought that was actually just a lyric in the song growing up. I thought, I thought, Shaka Khan, Shaka Khan! Like, I thought that was like a lyric from the song. In fact, the first time I ever heard the Shaka Khan version, I expected her to sing her own name at the end of the song. Like this is like me like in my twenties or whatever. But like, yeah, no, seriously, I, I thought that that, I thought that that, I thought that that, what do you call it? I love Whitney. That respect was there. You're saying there, I'm not, oh no, the respect for Whitney Houston, I think is probably, she probably had as much respect for Shaka Khan as she had for any singer that she ever listened to. Totally. And just again, this is what I'm saying. I hear influence when I hear those isolated vocals. Okay. When you hear Shaka singing, you can hear some of that, not just in Whitney Houston's cover of I'm Every Woman, but in Whitney Houston singing, period. Shaka said, when she heard the Whitney version, she said, are you using my vocals? She said, she thought maybe her backgrounds were still in the mix. And even if she did, so you're nailing it. She was going to say it. Whether or not it was, it was replicated if it wasn't the original. Yes. Yes. This is what I'm saying. No. And I think, I remember when the version, when the, when the video came out, I hadn't really listened to it that much, just on the album. But when the video came out, we were all listening to it. And I immediately thought to myself, even way back then, this sounds just like Shaka's version. Yeah. We brought it up to speed. We brought it up to where it was supposed to be in the era, but it's giving pounds for pound, very similar, if not almost exactly the same. An example that I have is, okay, so Stephanie Mills sings home from the Wiz. Yep. And everybody tries to cover home. It's every black girl and every talent show sings home. You see Beyonce singing it in a talent show way back then. When she was a kid, Barbara Streisand sings Stephanie Mills's home. And that's why we have to call it Stephanie Mills's home, because no one strays from the vocal arrangement of Stephanie Mills. They do not. And Whitney did not stray. And I just want to say for Whitney to not stray from someone else's vocal arrangement is saying something. That's the ultimate compliment. Yes. Yes. But the irony of it is that in a way it's also a form of erasure. It is though. Over Shaka's version. It is. There's, there's, it's just the idea that black people or black people, or black people or black women, or, or music itself isn't like ruthlessly competitive. That there isn't like a lot of ego involved in the creation of music. Yes. Ambition and drive are definitely in the mix. And you can hear it. Yeah. And you can hear it. And I think you can hear it better in black music than in anything. Just a couple of things before we move on from the song I wanted to point out is we have a music video for Whitney Houston that we've all seen. It should be pointed out the original music video for this. Oh, it's so great. It's so cool and lo-fi in a fun way. It reminds me of the infamous Star Wars Christmas special in that like you get to sit there and you're like, oh, this is the future of special effects. But it's really just her superimposed five chakas representing every woman. And it may not seem like much now, but you got to rise as pre MTV. It was. And the fact that this could be shown in clubs. Chaka's video was so great. She has on the best outfits. So many good outfits. Right. At least five. At least five or six outfits. Each one she's doing like an awkward dance. Like what am I, what am I supposed to be doing? What? Okay. This is a what? This is a video? What is this? It looks flawlessly beautiful and amazing and just so luscious. Right. And every version of herself and she really is being like every woman. Every woman. She's being every woman. Yeah. I'm every woman was just the beginning of Chaka's superstar career. She kept making music with Rufus until they broke up in 1983. At the same time, she was on the grind releasing even more solo albums. So I gotta take a moment to give some love to clouds. One of my favorite songs from her second album, which was called naughty. It was an extremely important song in the development of dance music, particularly the genre known as garages. We've been talking about. Love clouds. It's fun. Different shapes and sizes. Hide and go horizons. Love clouds. She's got a distinctive sound. Yep. The 80s are a great time for Chaka. You know, she's making waves on the R&B charts. She's got songs like, what you gonna do for me? Ain't no body which deserves its own episode of one song. I think. And another one of my absolute favorites, I know you. I love you. Which you know that. Remember that one? Not really. I'll play it for you here. Throughout her career, Chaka has covered quite a few songs from her contemporaries, including Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, which she recorded in 2002 and won a Grammy for. And of course, of course, there's Chaka's Cover, a princess song, I Feel For You, from 1984. It was the first R&B song to feature a rap segment. That's crazy. Unbelievable. Yeah, it was Melly Mel. Chaka Khan. Exactly. And by the way, there would be no me and Mariah go back like babies with fats. I feel for you. Yes. That rap was by Melly Mel and the famous Harmonica solo by Stevie Wonder. Yes. Yes. Yes. Again, I speak to Chaka Khan's influence on everything that has come after her. Oh, Prince was obsessed with Chaka Khan. Prince goes on to like, obviously worship her. She didn't actually write Feel For You about for Chaka though. She wrote it for Patrice Russian. Oh, Patrice! Who turned it down. Patrice! I'm running on the tail, Patrice! I'm running, you forget me not. Right. Oh, one of my favorite songs all the time. Oh, Number One is my favorite for Patrice Russian. Number One is such a great song. I love that song. There's some heartbreaking stories of what could have or should have been. One of them, probably the most heartbreaking one, is that did you know, I just learned this in researching this episode, Robert Palmer's addicted to love started life as a duet with Chaka Khan. There exists somewhere in the world, a Robert Palmer and Chaka Khan recording of Addicted to Love and they wiped her from the backing track. That makes a lot of sense. That makes it, because you know what? That wipes it. My other favorite Robert Palmer song is I Didn't Me to Turn You On, which is an amazing Chorale song. Yeah, by Jimmy J. Ann and Terry Lewis. I love the Chorale song version. Yeah, Jimmy J. Ann and Terry Lewis. So Robert Palmer was really just... Robert Palmer wanted to do the song with her. He brought her in, they recorded it and some garbage happened at the record level. The record company, executive MTV, something bad took place, music industry dirtiness. And she's up to this day, you can tell it's like a heartbreaking thing that she wasn't on the song, especially because... It's a big record. It was done dirty. It was a big record and she was done dirty. Less drawn dirty, but interesting to think about an alternative universe where Dennis Edwards is 1984 Smash, Don't Look Any Further. Might have had Chaka on it. But she not had a scheduling conflict. I could totally see that because there is a female vocal on Don't Look Any Further. That is my song too. Yeah, it's now a Cedar Garret song. And you notice that female part is on it. Yeah, it does. Yeah, that would have been Chaka. It would have been Chaka on that song. She had a conflict. She couldn't make it. Oh man. Whatever that means. And last but not least, and this is another one that's less dirty, so it's a happy ending for her friends, but Snaps, 1989 Smash, I Got the Power. That song was originally they asked Chaka to do it. It sounds like she couldn't do it. So she gave it to her friend Penny Ford. And if you notice, they actually end up interpolating another Chaka Khan song, which is Some Love from 1978. So yeah, there is the Don't Break My Heart part of I Got the Power. That's a Chaka interpolation. Oh wow. I Got the Power! Power! So it's an interesting Chaka. What could have beens? We talked about covers and we've talked about songs she's covered and songs of hers that have been covered. Let's talk a little bit about samples. There's Through the Fire from 1985, which was an Atlanta radio staple for most of my childhood. And that must have been the case in Chicago because Kanye famously sampled it for Through the Wire, a song that he recorded about his accident and the fact that he was having to rap through the wire. He sounds very different. He literally did in that song. He's incredible. I'm Kanye on that song. Yeah. And in the music video, Kanye features the artwork of Chaka's album Epiphany, the best of Chaka Khan Volume 1, where you can find through the fire. Now here's what's interesting. Chaka's son convinced her to clear the sample for Kanye. And then she hears it and she's very upset because she thinks she sounds like a chipmunk. She had no idea it was going to be Kanyafi. Exactly. It turns out in later interviews, she understands that speeding up the sample, slowing it down, that's just part of hip hop culture. I mean, in my opinion, when I hear her say that, I feel like she's like begrudgingly saying, yeah, I understand. I think she's still a little annoyed. They took her instrument and they turned it off. If you sound as good as she sounds, you may not want to hear that version. But I will say that that was a huge hit for Kanye back in the days. It was, yeah. Because it touched the nostalgia strings of the generation previous to hip hop. Really just, man, that song is so, it's old school, but it was even old school when it came out. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it really was one of the 70s throwbacks. Throwback ballad. Like it just. Like Quiet Storm. It really was. WKRP era. Yes. And I did allude earlier to jazz being an important part of understanding this woman. This wonderful quote that I found from her, she goes, I'm only kissing the hem of the dress of the lady called jazz. Now when I heard that, I was like, man, this really explains where she is coming from in so many ways. Her delivery, her choice of repertoire, the fact that she's done a lot of jazz, she has an entire jazz record. Yeah, she does. Do you have that one? Echoes of an era. Yeah, listen, listen. Yeah. I just remember, I think she toured around that album too. I know she toured around that album. And I remember she made very clear in the walk up to the tour. I'm not singing any of my Rufus hits. I'm not singing any of my Shakakan songs. I'm singing only, I'm singing only jazz. And I wasn't at the show, but I remember them talking about it like on the radio the next day or something. And this was an Oakland or in the Bay Area, I should say. And people started booing. Yeah. And they started. They wanted her. I'm every woman. The only one in the hits. You know, Hollywood, like singing what I paid for basically was the energy. What year was this? Roughly? The 82s. Yeah, Echoes of an Era was 82. That's with Chick Kree and Stanley Clarke. Yeah. It's all that's original standards. It does. And she stood right there and said, we made it very clear. I'm not doing that. Would you go to Andre 3000's flute show and start booing? I mean, I would. But that's. No, that's the energy. But and so they said that she went right into my funny Valentine. Her version of that is. I mean, the song by itself is the lyrics are insane and always will be there. It's a classic. It's a part of the Great American Song before a reason. But Shaka singing it. Yeah, she's an interpreter. Yeah, she is. She's an actress. She's an interpreter. When I was kind of doing my homework on this, that was sort of a key that helped unlock a lot of her entire career because she's not really a songwriter. And that's not, you know, to say anything negative. It's just like her chosen methodology for musicianship is to select repertoire. Yes. Find songs that she connects with and then she inhabits them and she transforms them and she performs them. That is her artistic route. I think that interpreters get a bad rap. And then on the flip side of that, it's so hard for music critics or social media superstars to. To rightly call women and black women songwriters when they are songwriters. It took so long for Mariah Carey to be identified in every article as a singer songwriter. You're absolutely right. That's a great connection. Yes, because that's the legacy. Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, the holiday are mostly not writing original material. No, they're not. And it's high art, though, when you can take the words that somebody else wrote. Yeah. Look at that. Look at the music, look at the arrangement. Imagine another arrangement, maybe. And then say, I feel strong enough about myself that I know that Ella Fitzgerald saying this. I know Ella saying it and everybody knows Ella Fitzgerald's version. But you know what? Let's let's record that. Gladys Knight has a jazz album. I love it when people say, I'm going to take. I'm just going to take it on. And I think the Ella connection is a real one, too. There's one song just to illustrate the jazz connection that I have to play for you. This song won a Grammy. This song is called Bebop Medley from 1982. And it's insane. Basically, it won best arrangement for voices because it's Bebop. It's hard. She's harmonizing with herself and these crazy scat moments. She took that background and training and talent and put it into pop music and put it into funk and put it into on the radio. She did. Well, at this point, I think it's safe to say that there's no denying the greatness of Chaka Khan between her solo career and as the lead singer of Rufus. She's won 10 Grammys, sold 70 million records and several of her singles and album have gone gold and platinum. She was also inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2023. So, Daniel, as we wrap up this episode, OK, what do you believe is the legacy of Chaka Khan and I'm Every Woman? I think that I have been saying it throughout this whole amazing show. I think that you guys have been saying it throughout this whole amazing show. But the legacy is that everybody wants to sound like Chaka Khan. I can't imagine a vocalist of any stripe, right? Who wouldn't listen to Chaka Khan and say, damn. I want to sound like that. I want that kind of attention to detail. I want that type of excellence. I want that kind of reaching for the stars with every bar, with every note. It's like Chaka leaves no note untouched. Nothing is just like taken for granted. Yeah, like, oh, yeah. Nothing is that every note you feel her touching and making special. Yeah. And whenever you hear almost anyone. That has recorded music either during or after Chaka Khan's heyday. Is in one way or another trying to be Chaka Khan. I'm hearing all that to through your ears and sort of being in your book. Like I'm reading it now. So I'm like thinking about all these women and I'm hearing I'm hearing the Whitney. Just the way you did in the way you did in that moment that you did. And then that sort of flows us into into Mariah and into Beyonce. All of these women that are in this whatever you call the word cloud of of pop into R&B with gospel influence and funk and all that. They're all coming from a Chaka legacy or they're all certainly connected in some ways to Chaka's legacy. Even if it is in vocalists and they don't acknowledge it or even know it, even if it's just in their dreams, they listen to it in their sleep while they were in the backseat, while their mom and dad were playing it on the car radio. Like it's it's in people. Yeah, man, it's a it's a Chaka's legacy is it's it. I mean, it clearly is a Hall of Fame legacy. And this is coming from somebody who's on the committee. The year that is coming up is the first year that I've been on the committee. What an honor. How great. It's is it is it fun. It feels fun. It was work. It's a huge. What an honor. It's a huge honor. Honestly. So when I say that her legacy is a Hall of Fame legacy, I mean it literally. And I mean it also metaphorically, like what halls of fame just mean in general? Like you are the best of the absolute best. And that's where Chaka is. Is she on your on your Mount Rushmore along with her? Do you say Beyonce was up there in another interview? Yes, Beyonce is definitely up there. I mean, I I can't but my big three is definitely going to be Janet Mariah and Whitney Houston. OK, absolutely. But Chaka's right there. Well, OK, so since we're talking Rushmore's have a controversial put you on the spot question. Oh, let's go. Chaka or Patty? Chaka, you heard it here first. It wasn't that hard. You heard it. There's a quick answer. No, and I love a quick answer. No, I do. I have so much love and respect for Patty LaBelle. I do. And I love even I love the Blue Bales. We can take it all the way back to the girl group. But I am going to have to go on ahead and choose Chaka Khan. Listen, we only do these things, people, because they're fun to do. I grew up. I'm one of six. OK, four sisters. OK, the Black women, my family, where they were always having this debate and I just wanted to see where you fell. I mean, I will I will sing if only right now. Right. I think she's Patty till. But you know, we are not together. We're just getting you don't want it. You want it on flu. I do want to ask real quick, because Chaka did, of course, do that interview where I think it was about the time that her relationship with Mary J is quite complicated. You know, Mary J famously covered Sweet Thing and she felt like Mary's out of flat. And I feel like the young Internet came for Chaka, which is insane to me. They're like, she's like you just matter. Her version of Sweet Thing did more. I'm like, not part of that camp. But she did also do that interview where she talked about the Rolling Stone top. I think it was. Are you going to say the quote that I think you're going to say? Or what's the quote about about Mary? Well, maybe it was. OK, they'd ranked like I think Mariah Carey, number five. They had put they put a couple of singers of her, including Mary. And she was just like, oh, this is crazy. This is this is insane. Did you did you happen across that interview? Did you ever hear I heard I heard about it. I can tell you exactly what she said. She goes, she's referring to the voters. They are blind as a motherfucking bat. They need hearing aids, Khan explained, referring to the Rolling Stone critics. They must be the children of Helen Keller. Because that's rude. That's a little rude. That's a little rude. She eventually walked it back a little bit. So, you know, she apologized because she said like, you know, I'm friends with all these people, including Mary. So I always found that relationship to be really. No, I didn't find it rude what she said about anybody except for Helen Keller. That's a little much. You're wearing a Helen Keller. I am more. Yes. I'm working on that. That's yeah. Now, I just feel like comparing between errors is it's tough. It's tough. I'm like, I said, you go's involved. This is a lot of work and creativity and and and thought and imagination and all that kind of stuff. So if someone remakes your song, yeah, you're going to be listening to that hard. You're going to be listening for anything that sounds remotely off or even just different. And and also, let's just be honest. Getting older is not for the week. OK, so it as we get older, even sometimes your influence is hard to witness because it says to you, my heyday is not here. My time's in the rearview mirror. Yes. And so my thought is. Shaka can say what she wants to say. Yeah, and Mary J. Blige is going to be absolutely fine. Her version is stellar. But Shaka's sweet thing. I actually thought it brought a level of. Gravitas is not the word, but like that was on what's the four one one, which is the first album that I ever slow danced and was able to get a kiss from. I have a special place. More, more, more. Hey, no, this is not like their microphones around here. Okay, before we let you go, OK, we want to play a game with you. It's called What's One Song? And here are the rules. Okay, we'll give you a scenario and you give us one song that this scenario would apply to. And we'll want you to come up with that answer as quickly as possible. I don't think that'll be a problem because you seem to answer questions pretty quickly. Oh, man, I feel like I'm getting a plus right now. Oh, you're you're you're you're killing it. All right, so what's one song you can't get out of your head right now? Honestly, Lionel Richie, Jesus is love. Jesus is love. What's one song that you could listen to every day for the rest of your life? That song would be 1973's number one pop hit. Midnight Train to Georgia. I'm never gonna straight. It is a perfect record. I don't say that about that many records. There's not one weak element on that record. Oh, now I wanna ask you, okay, but you have to lose one song off the album. What song is it? Off what album? Off that album. I don't even listen to that album. All I listen to is Midnight Train to Georgia. He just flipped the 45. What's your favorite one? Me? Off that album. I'll ask the questions, man. Alright. I know that I'm... Let me... Look. Real quick. Real blazing episode. So many things have happened this time. So we've never had it before. Right here. You can come back anytime. Right here. What's one song you listen to a ton when you wrote Shine Bright? And you know what's wild is that I don't even write about her that much in Shine Bright. I have written about her at length other places. But it's Shade and it's When Am I Gonna Make a Living. When am I gonna make a living? It's gonna take a while before I give in. Ooh. That's... Nice. I love Shade. I'm a big fan of that answer. That's great. Shade, listen. We have a couple of White Will episodes. Can we ever do that at Shade? It's absolutely 100% one of them. Number one on my list. Absolutely. Yeah, she's the queen. She got me through too many things over the decade. War of the Heart is heartbreaking. That's a great song too. It's too much. It's too much. I'm a living soldier of love, man. Soldier of love? I was late to that one. Let me tell you something. If you do stems for Soldier of Love... We'll bring you back for that one. Oh man. We will bring you back. In any case, he had definitely... But When Am I Gonna Make a Living is just... It's about just that. It's about ambition, which I love to hear in music. I love to hear in music from women. I love to hear in music from Black women. And Shade was so young when she co-wrote and recorded that. And it has everything in it that if you hear that song at 19, 20, 21 years old, it will get you through your life. It will get you through your life. Can I give you two more? Yes, please. This is a fun game. I think Maureen is underrated. Yes, Maureen is good. I'm not in love. And I'm gonna miss you, girl. Listen, any song with a girl's name as the title wins. Yes, I totally... I said that on a previous episode. Yeah, just name the song Brooke. You know, like you're halfway home. That's what I'm saying Peggy Sue. Let's go. All right, all right. Oh my God, we gotta do that shot of the episode. Okay, what's one song that you love to sing at karaoke? I've never done a different song. Only 19 to Georgia? Let me... I'm not even gonna mess with Gladys like that. No, it's I Will Survive, Gloria Gaynor. Oh, no. It never changes. It never changes. Good choice. First I was afraid, I was petrified, kept thinking I could never live without you by my side. But then I spent... Come on. And by the way, everybody in karaoke is like jamming along with you. Yes, that's mine. But you weren't gonna ask me the one that makes me cry? No, no, no, that's coming. That's not coming. Okay, I've been waiting on that one. That one's coming last. Because I have my Kleenex. Well, let's ask him now, what is one song that makes you cry? Every single time. Carol King, Way Over Yonder. I will cry thinking about it. Over yonder. We did not know that song coming in. Thank you for turning it up. Thank you for making us cry in the future. It's such a... Thanks to this new song in my repertoire of crying songs. I mean, again, my car just blasted. Jamma, Way Over Yonder? Yeah. Oh, yeah, you have to. You'll be sad though. You'll be happy sad though. You'll be happy sad. I like to be happy sad. That's the good kind of sad. Yes. I like to be unhappy, gleeful sometimes. I get that from Cocktoe Twins. Oh, yeah, totally. And the Pretender's song, Back on the Chain Gang. That song makes me bawl. Does it? It destroys me. Because it's about her two bandmates who died. I never knew that. Is this Brass in Pocket? It's a same band, but Powers That Be He, and Fossils to Live Like We Do. That song. That last note, we go from minor to major, making us bawl. That kills me, but I might start crying right now. So stop looking at me. Okay, I'll stop. I'll stop. I love that music has this power though. It does. Fun fact, I'm dead inside. Wait, music doesn't make you cry? Are you serious? Nothing makes you cry? Nothing makes me cry? Nothing makes me cry? What? Let's try to make him cry. I'm ready. Next episode, I will cry. But it'll be crocodile. Check this out. What's one song we have to break down on a future episode of One Song? Okay, because I'm just very into stems right now. So I'm just trying to think what's, see this one I can't answer quick enough, but I tell you what it should be. I want it to be the Jackson 5. I want you back. Oh baby, give me one more chance. I want to be that deep. Daniel Smith, thank you so much for playing this game and for joining us. Where can people find you? We want to find you. We want to find you. We want to find you because if you want to promote. The best thing that you can ever do is to buy and read and talk about my book, Shine Bright, a very personal history of black women in pop. It is in paperback. It's a beautiful purple color in paperback, right? I brought a copy you decided for me. Yes, absolutely. I have a newsletter called Shine Bright HQ. You can find me on sub stack and all over social media, I'm the same nickname, Danimo, which is from high school. Danamo. And there I am. I hope to see you out there. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure having you on the show. Such an honor having you on the show. Thank you. Bye. I had so much fun. If you can't tell, I had the most fun. Thank you for having me. We're through all the emotions together. All of them. As always, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on Instagram at D'Alo, D-I-A-L-L-O, and on TikTok at D'Alo Riddle. And you can find me on Instagram at luxuryluxxury. And on TikTok at luxuryxx. You can also watch full episodes of One Song on YouTube now. Just search One Song podcast. We'd love it if you'd like and subscribe. Speaking of which, if you've made it this far, I think it means you like this podcast. So please don't forget to give us five stars, leave a review and share it with someone you think would also like the show because it really helps keep going. Luxury helped me in this thing. I'm producer DJ, songwriter and musicologist Luxury. And I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ D'Alo Riddle. And this is One Song. We'll see you next time.