How to break bad habits (w/ Edith Zimmerman)

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I am your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, we are talking with the New Yorker cartoonist, writer and artist, Edith Zimmerman. We're talking about honesty, vulnerability and creativity. Edith is one of my favorite artists because her work is so funny and personal, but also imaginative and approachable. Her style is distinct, but impressionistic. And what she draws is often the topics that she's wrestling with in her day-to-day life. So things like sobriety or parenting or figuring out her creative and personal ambitions. It's all very relatable stuff. And this conversation is also part of our newest video series, which means that I got to go meet Edith in person at her house in upstate New York to record this interview. And we also filmed Edith and me running together discussing what it was like for her to stop drinking and her drawing a hilarious caricature of my face, all of which you can see online at Ted's YouTube channel. I think the video is really a fun and cool compliment because after you listen to this episode, you can see what Edith's art and what her life looked like. So listen to this, then check out that video. But first, let's get started with Edith. Well, I drew as a kid and then I took a bunch of art classes in college. I did a lot of portraiture. I want to say hyper realistic, but it's just like trying to be regular realistic. Like, nothing special. And they were all very careful. I really liked doing portraits with pencil. And there was just a lot of erasing and erasing and just like layering and layering and careful, careful, careful, and it was good. I was pretty good at it. I did like some really good portraits by the time I graduated. I was going to be a double major with English and studio art, but I didn't because I was like, am I going to like draw for a living? Which actually sort of like sounds like a joke now, but I think it was like totally reasonable. So then when I started drawing again, more recently, I started with pen because I didn't want to go back to the like extremely careful drawing like, I hope I don't get it wrong. It's like, I'm going to get it wrong right out of the bat and that's just like, that's going to be okay. And I did these like really rudimentary stick figures. And like my drawing is still like bad. I mean, you've seen, sometimes they come out kind of charming. Sometimes they're just like absurdly bad. And you're just like, oh, sorry, you're like, you're calling yourself an artist? Okay, all right, that's cool. Yeah, that was sort of part of it. It's like, yeah, you just sort of like come into the bit. I just started drawing stick figures or like ball heads with like little necks and like circle eyes. And then I just kept doing and kept doing and like slowly it evolved. And now I feel like I have a style, but it's like, none of it was conscious. It's just sort of like the way it comes out naturally. And then plus like how you keep refining it. We're going to take a quick break, but we will be back with more from Edith in just a moment. Don't go anywhere. And we are back. We're talking with Edith Zimmerman about sobriety, creativity and what it takes to create a life where you can be honest, vulnerable and healthy. Hi, I'm Edith Zimmerman. I'm a writer and artist. I live in upstate New York. And I send out a newsletter called Drawing Links. So one thing that I when I think about your work is your work is really honest. And I'm curious, have you always been good at being honest with yourself? No. I mean, that's a tricky question. This is like, you think I'm being really honest, right? Like, there's all these much deeper pockets. I'm like, geez, I really get into this. So in the stuff that you've probably read, like a lot of the comics are pulled from my journal. So it's like I wake up in the morning and I do this journal every day and I do comics about like whatever from the day before stands out to me. And then like weeks later, I'll go back and look at it and publish some of it. Because like for whatever reason, I just like want to share parts of it. Like I still do not really share, but it's like this compulsion and I just want to share it. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, I got something just right or I did. I don't know, something just worked. But I go through and I like reread my own journal entries. And sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, this is really good. Or I like this. Other times I'm like, oh, my God, I can't. This is horrible. So it like sort of informs how I make journal entries in the future. It's really interesting because I think that that's a lot of what I want to talk about, right? It's like kind of that compulsion to share. How do you find the line between like something where you're like, I want this to be out there versus something that you don't want to be out there? Well, it feels very important that it be true, which I feel, which is like the honesty therefore is like imperative. And sometimes there's stuff that's honest, but it's like ugly. I'm not going to share that or like it doesn't make me look good. It's like I want it to be real. And to kind of come across as the way I experienced it and to be flattering to other people because like I'm never, I like really try not to portray anybody in a negative light. Like I'll kind of like rant privately, but I'll never try not to publish anything negative about anybody. So I journal every day too. I have a friend who journals every day and then they destroy what they journaled. Like something I think they used to like literally burn the pages that they wrote. And now they journal electronically and then just delete it. And they're like a huge proponent of this. That's not how I do it. Because I want to preserve the things that I'm experiencing, but I sometimes wonder like, am I journaling for me or am I journaling for an audience? And who is that audience? And I wonder how that's changed it for you if you literally are doing it for an audience. Yeah, well, it's that's kind of like the crux of, well, one issue for me. I mean, so I started this journal, the journaling was just regular writing. And then I was starting a second journal where I was doing just drawings. And eventually the writing and the drawings became like journal comics that I do every day. And every so often I was like, man, these three panels came out in a way that I like really pleased me. And so I started a private Instagram account just to like my 23 friends that I like manually signed up for it. I was like, I just want to show you guys like this moment because I think I was like really lonely or something or I was going through sort of a rough whatever, like I just wanted to, they were just little snippets, it would just come out just right. Anyway, so sharing it on Instagram and then that kind of snowballed and eventually I like I was letting anyone who knew me follow me if they requested it. And then I put all those comics in a newsletter instead of on Instagram. And it got recommended places like other people were kind of promoting it and then it started to get like bigger and bigger. I mean, it's not like huge or anything, but it got big enough. And then I was like, I'm going to charge money for it. This will be my job. I'm going to get like I'll support myself with my cartoons. Like this is a dream and I just have to live my life and then write these little charming stories about it. And but like the money stuff didn't really work out the way I thought it was going to because I had this like goal I wanted to hit. And then I just like didn't get there in the time I thought I was going to get there. And also like I had a certain amount of savings that I was using to get to this place. And then it just like wasn't, it was really disappointing. And like meanwhile, like this is my real life, like I'm sharing real stories for my life. But this like it's sort of caught up with me. The way I visualize it is like, it sounds kind of cheesy, but it's like the tide, like you're kind of running with the water a little bit. And like, are you being real or are you making stuff up to share with people? Like, are you thinking about what people are going to think when they see this? Or are you really just sharing your private thoughts with yourself in your journal? And it helped to have some distance between the two. But eventually with this sort of first iteration of the newsletter, I found I was sitting down, I had like kind of run out of stories, but like I knew I was supposed to post something in my newsletter because there were people who were paying for it. And it's like, you know, you hear people be like, yeah, it's okay, I can come out whenever like the people who are supporting you, they like, they just want to know they're supporting you. I'm like, yeah, but this is a product I'm creating. Like I told people I was going to send it like X amount of times a week or once a week or whatever, like I just haven't sent it for two weeks, like this is a problem. Anyway, and I'd be sitting down like, okay, I have to write like a charming story about my life that people are going to love, like they loved the one about the dog. Like that one was cute. Like, so don't write about how you're mad at your husband or don't write about like, like, or don't do that. Anyway, so it just started to like, just was difficult. And I refunded everybody. I just like kind of shut off the newsletter and I refunded everybody and just like quit kind of. And I kept doing the journal I just like didn't publish for two years. And then I mean, I was just doing it privately for myself. And then I restarted it last fall, just because I felt like there was some distance and I wanted to do it. And I had this whole new like business idea for myself, which was that I would not ask people to pay for the newsletter. I would instead use it as an advertising device for my other realm, like my greeting cards and my art prints. Because I was like, oh, I'm going to take myself seriously as an artist, people will buy my art, like that's what I want. I don't want them to subscribe to my stories. I want them to buy my art because I'm an artist now. So the version of the newsletter now is I write the journal stuff. And then two months later, I look through it and I publish stuff. And that has seemed like enough of a cushion that I can maintain the integrity of just journaling for myself and kind of silence the voice that's like, well, what's going to be a good story for your fans? And I find myself like writing something and it's like kind of like I could never publish this, like what's the point of even following this thread? It's like, well, it's important. I have to, I have to just get this out. I have to like just write whatever comes out. It seems like there's these threads of like honesty and like creativity and then also vulnerability and like figuring out what the right level of those each is for you, especially when something is public. Because I think that like, even when you're describing like, I didn't feel like this was right. So I stopped doing it entirely. I refunded everyone. That's kind of, to me, like being honest with yourself. Like, this is how I'm feeling. Yeah. And this is not sustainable. Have there been times in your life where you were, it was harder for you to be honest with yourself? The first thing that comes to mind is like, I drank really heavily for a really long time and I was, I knew it was too much and a problem for me. But I was like, yeah, but like, it's the only thing I like. So I'm not going to like stop drinking. It's like, even though it's clearly like ruining my life, it's also the only thing I enjoy doing. So like, what am I supposed to do here? I feel like maybe I come across as really honest, but I think there's been times in my life where there's just like entire situations that I can't even look at. And only later can I be like, okay, eventually I was able to like be honest about them. But in the moment, they're just like way too big. And I don't even know, like maybe I'm going through one of them now and I can't not to be like mysterious, but like sometimes I can't even look at it. But anyway, so I was like a very, I don't know, like medium problematic drinker for like kind of a long time, like for probably like seven years, I knew I was like, this is not good. But like, I can't really handle this right now, because I'm just like not equipped. And then like one day I was and then I stopped drinking. But you've also been really public about sobriety and also like about creating a space, not just for yourself, but for other people to write about sobriety and to talk about it. I write now for I do illustrations for a newsletter about sobriety. And I've like published stories about sobriety. I just think like for myself, I also don't drink. And sometimes I feel like, like it's hard to claim sobriety, not because I drink or do drugs still, but it's like because I didn't have like a dramatic rock bottom moment. Like I feel like, like I don't drink and I like myself more. And there's all sorts of reasons why I am sober now. So sometimes I think it's like weird for me to claim it. But all of it just to say, I think a big piece for me though, was about like honesty. You don't like the way you feel. And you don't like the things that you are doing. And you are doing it anyway. Yeah. That was the clarifying moment for me was like, what if you just were honest? You don't have to do this. I think everyone has a different relationship to like sobriety and self control and honesty. What was your relationship with those things? Alcohol is very obviously ruining my life. I mean, not that dramatically, but like, it wasn't like I was having car accidents and running up debt or something. It was just like very slowly my life was becoming incredibly repetitive. Nothing new was really happening. It was meaningful. I just like felt gross. Like I just kept doing the same thing every day. It's like the thing that I used to do is like, okay, you go out, you have drinks with friends, like who knows you're going to meet, like who knows what's going to happen, like who knows what funny thing you're going to say. It's going to be great. It's just like it starts out like that. And then for me it ended like, oh, I'm just like drinking like six glasses of wine alone at home. How did it get from there to there? The honesty part for me, I think just came and I was like, well, yeah, that obviously is bad. But it's like, what else am I going to like, this is the only thing that's fun for me. And I was kind of just like holding these two things that I'm like, I've got to solve this incredibly difficult puzzle like nobody else before me has dealt with something so challenging. It's like, and then one day I was like, no, it's not that hard. It's not the one thing I like. I think I'm just like willing to see what life is like without it. And I had this book that I had bought six months earlier that was like, kind of gives you a new perspective on drinking. And I read that thinking it was going to suck. Like the same day I decided I didn't, I was like willing to try not drinking permanently. What was the book? It's called Stop Drinking Now by Alan Carr. Oh, yeah. It's like, it sounds crazy because he also, he also wrote the book about how to stop smoking. And he also wrote the book about how to like, stop using cocaine. Like, and he and his whole team have this suite of books about, but really once you, if you decide to believe them, or if you become compelled enough to believe them, the crux is the same. It's like all these things that feel so special and private and mysterious. It's like, yeah, they're addictions and they're just habits. And if you just break the addiction, addiction, meaning like your body's used to it, it's a habit. It's a little cycle. If you just like unravel it and feel excited about unraveling it, like you're going to giving yourself something special and new instead of you're taking away something you love, it's like, you're giving yourself a better gift. And it's like, okay, cool. Like, because I don't think I would have responded to feeling like, okay, now, Edith, you can't have this thing that everyone else gets to have. You have to like live in like a timeout for the rest of your life. It's like, I don't know how I can do that. But now it's like, I get to be in the special place and all the people who are still drinking are in the like timeout. I totally understand that. I mean, I think that like one of the hardest parts for me was like, I am a comedian. I mean, at the time I was like, doing a lot of standup and I would like be in places where part of- When did you stop drinking? I don't have like a clear date. Like it's been at least seven years, maybe more, but I'm like, it might be 10. I was often in these places where like some or often actually all of the pay was like drink tickets. Yeah. So they're like, come to do a show and like as a result, you could take like five shots. And I was like, well, I don't want that. But I would just like end up where it was like four nights a week. And but I think the one of the hardest parts was figuring out like, what do I do? Yeah. Because it's just like a very socially accepted thing. It's like, I have a drink in my hand, we're drinking together. Now it's like, do I drink soda every night? Like that was like a really hard part for me. But I think it is true. At least it's true for me. I wonder if it's true for you is that there actually was like a quite a bit of like creativity and like art into like, what does my life look like without alcohol? As opposed to just being like, I do the same thing everyone else does. And I think also that could like really speak to people. Because a lot of times people like, wow, I want to stop drinking. Drinking is awesome. But framed in that way. It's like, oh, yeah, I just like started doing what everyone else did until it was just like the only thing I did. But it also felt very much like it was my choice. I was on like this private romantic experience with this destructive boyfriend and like, oh my God. But it was really just like the same thing everyone else does. Yeah, life post drinking is like, yeah, you have a lot more time. Like, what are you going to do with it? And what am I going to do with it? And what do I like to do? I mean, I've written about this a lot. So sometimes when I find myself like on my talking points, I feel like really obnoxious. So I've written about this and drawn about it many times. But like literally after I quit drinking, maybe even the next day or that same afternoon or something or the week, I googled like, what do people do besides drink? Kind of as a joke to myself like, the fuck is happening? Because it wasn't it was sort of like a humorless time. Where it's like, okay, like phase two, and there's no answers, right? Like there's no answers. But actually, there like was a very boring answer that for me ended up being very real, which was like, there's like top 10 lists, like, go to a cafe, like go to a museum. I'm like, am I really reading this right now? And one was like rediscover activities you enjoyed as a child. I'm like, yeah, right, of course. It's like, that's like, for real. And I read about people were like, yeah, I stopped drinking, and I like got back into basketball or whatever, you know, like people, it's like we liked it. Like when we're kids, we don't drink, you know, and we find a way to enjoy the world. I think people also have this idea a lot of times that like, drugs or alcohol are the key to creativity or being interesting. Yeah. I think there's lots and lots of examples of people like making their best work or making work at all. When I was in my, I don't know, I was like 26 or something, this guy was friend of my boyfriend at the time. I was like spouting off at the bar and he was like, man, Edith, like some people are really annoying when they're drunk. Like you actually are more creative when you're drunk. And I was like, I knew it. But it certainly did not stay that way. I don't even think it was true at the time. And like, that's why it's tricky. Like it starts out kind of fun. You have like one or two positive experiences such that like, you can no longer really be honest with yourself later on when you're like, am I having that many positive experiences now? Or am I just like repeating the same thing that worked like eight years ago once or twice? There is a level of truth for me where I'm like, now at 11pm or certainly at 1am, I am asleep. And I used to not be asleep at those times. And part of that is just age, but part of it is like, when you are like drinking, you go out and you like stay out past when you would want to stay out necessarily, or like things just keep happening and accelerating. Because I think like, that's just true. I started going to sleep a lot earlier. And I woke up earlier and I had more time where I felt good and could like, be clear-minded. That was like, probably the most dramatic change for me. I too. I'm asleep at nine. Oh yeah, absolutely. I don't do any, like my life is very boring. Like I'm being interviewed, right? Like, that's cool. Good job. I'm surely doing something right. But like, there's things that are missing. Like, it's like you go too much in one direction, you got a course correct. There's no perfect way to live. You just kind of have to do what you do. I completely agree. And like, the constraints of my current life are more interesting to me than the constraints of my life when I stopped drinking. We're going to take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more in just a moment. If you're sending money abroad, free fees and competitive rates can mean inflated exchange rates. Choose WISE and you can send, spend and receive in over 40 currencies with no markups or hidden fees. Whether you're sending pounds across the pond, spending rails in Rio, or getting paid in dollars for your side gig, you'll get the mid-market exchange rate every time. Plus, most transfers arrive in less than 20 seconds. Be smart. Get WISE. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. Teasons need supply. Hey Sainsbury's, have you got anything to help me save on my lot's dinners this week? Well, we're always matching and lowering prices. So hundreds of Sainsbury's fresh fruit, veg and everyday products are price matched to Aldi. And every week with Nectar, you can save money on thousands of the products your family loves. So we can help you plan your dinner and your budget. 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Search for La Roche Posse Hialu B5 at boots or boots.co.uk to find your new skin routine. And we are back. A lot of your artwork, especially the stuff that really resonates with people, it's kind of about things that I think people would say are like normal. Can you tell me a little bit about how you think about that? Because I think those constraints have ended up being like creative fuel for you in a lot of ways. Yeah, a lot of it's just like not conscious. Like I wake up and I go sit down in my office and I take out my pen. It's like 4.35 in the morning and it's like my special time to myself because the children are sleeping, hopefully, and it's dark outside and it's very quiet and I've got my coffee and I just write about whatever comes to mind from the day before and like it usually starts out kind of awkward. I'm like, well, what? Like, oh, like good dinner. We had less than I ate or whatever. And then just like a thread will sort of present itself and I find that I want to draw about like, oh yeah, and then my daughter picked this flower and then like the flower reminded me of this lamp and it's just sort of right like, I don't know, it's kind of like what I want to create or what my hand wants to draw or what I feel like drawing. And a lot of times like what you see is very little, very small percentage of what I actually do. It's like pretty dull most of it, like truly dull. You make art about like everyday stuff and you take it from your journal. Has making art about the everyday made you appreciate mundane objects or mundane experiences more? No. Okay, tell me. Let's say there's like a comic about how I drove the kids to the supermarket and we like had this funny experience at the supermarket. I'm not like, I can't wait to go to the supermarket because what a good time we had there. It just stays mundane. Like I haven't tapped into any like secret of the universe or anything because I didn't, I was mostly a writer for like the first like 10 years of my career. But I did a lot of art in college and I liked drawing like little mundane things like and sort of doing portraits of like a spray bottle, but it was just college, no big deal. But I still like doing that stuff, just like pouring a lot of attention and detail into like a screenshot of a YouTube video or something is like relishing attention on unexpected destinations or things I think is like beautiful. But I don't know, there was some quote, I don't even know what it is, but it was like something about like the purpose of life is to spend attention at the times when you don't have to. Well, I think that I've been thinking a lot recently about how a lot of going through the world is just easy to not notice things, to be like totally numb and on autopilot. And it's easy to do that period. And I think that actually like there is something really important about being where you are. I mean, this is like, I came up with Buddhism, but just now, did you notice that I'm going to quote Ram Dass in like the worst way, but I do think that part of your art is about like being where you are. I would say that it's about being where I am for like an hour and a half every morning, because I'm never where I'm at when I'm with the girls. Like, so I draw a comic about being in the supermarket, like when I'm at the supermarket, and I'm like, how do we get out of here? Like, why are they being so annoying? Maybe I'll take a selfie with them. So we look cute, but like, we gotta get it like that. And then the next morning, like we went to the supermarket, I'm going to draw, like, it's like I'm looking back at these moments. I don't know, it's hard to describe, but it does feel like I can't be in the moment all the time. It's like just not, I can't, I'm not doing that right now. That's not my life. But there is this time that I've harnessed that's important to me where I feel like quiet and mean flow state, something like that. So like something akin to that, where I'm thinking about these moments, they're like kind of arising and I'm observing them again in a way that I, a lot of it's just, I don't know what I'm doing really, but like something without too much thought or intention, it's just like that's what I like to do or it feels good to have this moment to just like let things from yesterday bubble back up to the surface and take a few minutes, half an hour, just like lavishing some attention. I'm like, oh yeah, my daughter picked a flower for me. I'm going to draw that today or all that like thing broke in the car. It was funny to look at. I'm going to like draw my memory of it. I feel you being like, who am I to say this stuff? Like I don't have this all figured out. Yeah. I just want to say, yeah, I'm trying to figure this stuff out and like it's much more helpful to talk to someone who is figuring it out than someone who's like, by the way, and that's how I've written 17 books this year and you can see me, I'm the entire New York Times bestseller list is just me. So I just want to say that because I think that like that actually is really important that you don't have to have it all figured out to have something to offer. I hope so. I mean, I feel that way when I'm feeling optimistic. I mean, a lot of it's also like my husband makes this life possible for me. Like I was doing this before we met and then he like financially supports us. So this question of like, oh my God, is my newsletter going to make enough money to support myself was like, well, I can just move in with my husband. Like we're fine and we're going to have a baby. We're going to move upstate. Like we can afford this. I can spend the day kind of how I want in part because he's doing this. And I'm not like, it's funny. It's like, I think I'm doing, I'm doing work I like, I'm glad if it resonates with people, I'm not like famous or anything. I'm not wealthy. I'm not making a lot of money off any of this. So like, there's a little absurdity to this, but that's cool. But I think that like, these are all the same questions that I genuinely am wrestling with every day right now. How do you like make time to make art when there's so much else going on in life? Like, how can someone do that? What are three things that someone can do that like can create some space and allow them an actual time to do that? Well, staying up later, waking up early. I have time now in the middle of the day because we have childcare. But it doesn't work. So like I do more like administrative stuff during the day, but like it's essential to me to work early in the morning before anything enters my mind. I know some people it's like that at night. But yeah, early morning hours. Well, I have to say it because it's just blocking my mind if I don't say it. But it's like, if you don't want to make it, then don't you don't have to. It's like, I think a lot of people who are artists, they just do it because they feel compelled to. So people who are like, I just don't have time to make art. I'm like, you just you certainly do. So you can find time if it needs to come out of you. I actually think that's so important. I wrestle with like, I want to be an artist. Like I want to do that. But it takes so much control, like so much self control and so much self discipline to like do it. I think a lot about how you can't just say you're a doctor. But like, if I don't do comedy, then I'm not a comedian. If I don't write, then I'm not a writer. That is the only thing that makes you that. And it takes so much to like, actually do it when there's so many other things in life. I think that's like an element of discipline and self control that I really am wrestling with right now. I don't know. I mean, I've just had like sort of a different experience. Tell me. Which is why I hesitate to be prescriptive about any of it, which is like, these narratives that I thought were true ended up not being true for me. Like for instance, about drinking, I thought that like everywhere you turn for the rest of your life is going to be like this pang of temptation. And oh God, it's like, hasn't been like that for me at all. And also like, oh, that it's gonna be the hardest thing. And you're just like, for some reason that one day was just like, okay, I'm done. Who knows what the future holds, right? But like, so that was bizarrely easy. And then it's difficult because sometimes my older, my younger daughter wakes up during this time, but like it's easy for me. I don't, I don't set an alarm. But if compulsion, like feeling compelled to make stuff right now is the criteria. It's like, so yeah, it's sort of the opposite. It's like, it's not hard for me to carve this time out. It's also habitual too. It's like, I carved it out when it was very easy for me, because it's like, la, la, la, I can just wake up and go to the coffee shop and spend as much time as I want here. And so that became like the thing I did. And now it's like, well, I can't take this away from me. This is the cornerstone of my entire life. So like, but I wonder if it also has to do with something about like, where you're willing to put yourself on the list versus other people, you know what I mean? Because for me, like making, like writing or telling jokes or performing live, like those are times where I feel like the most myself. And so whenever I make the time to do them, I'm like, what a reminder, but it's really easy for me to not make the time, especially when you have like to care for family. And it's not just about you anymore. When you get to a phase where it's like, you're caring for your parents or you're caring for kids. I mean, you were hitting on this with the narratives, like it's easy to fall into narratives about ourselves and our creativity and who we are and what life will be like, even if they don't necessarily match up with reality. Yeah, I think with when you're responsible for other people, it's hard to carve out large chunks of uninterrupted time. And I think when people say like, I just don't have the time to do blah, blah, blah, like they're not lying. Amazing deals on package holidays. Pay now. I've got tickets to that sold out show message now. Your subscription's been suspended. Update your payment details. Final warning to receive your package pay the fee immediately. Mom, I've had an accident. Please send money. There's been suspicious activity on your bank account. And I need a few personal details. Fraud is getting more sophisticated. Always stop, think and check. Stay ahead of scams at gov.uk slash stop, think, fraud. We get it. Making tax digital can sometimes feel daunting. But with Zeros HMRC recognized software, you quickly get to feeling confident. If you're a sole trader or landlord whose income tax is going digital, not only is zero MTD ready, it also gives you better control of your finances, like having the clear financial visibility you need every quarter to avoid end of year tax surprises. Change the way you see MTD. Search MTD ready with zero. You wrote this really beautiful article about running and how sobriety and this physical activity of going for runs and jogging had kind of had an interesting relationship. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? Also, I just want to say I'm starting to feel like an imposter where it's like, oh, you journal and you run instead of drink? It's like, yeah, you and 50% of the population. But yes. Well, what's the imposter part of that? Well, it's like, yeah, there's nothing special about what I do. So why would anyone want to talk to me about it? I think I can answer that one, which is, you don't have to. I do. I think you're special. But I know that literally sounds like a Mr. Rogers episode. I think you're special. But I do. But I mean, really, I think like the fact that it works for a lot of people is why I'm interested in it. It's sort of like what you were talking about earlier about like when you make choices with your life that are not just like going with the flow. I mean, I don't think anybody thinks of themselves as going with the flow and just sort of doing whatever. Everyone thinks they're making decisions all the time, which they are. And like, I'm going with the flow with like 90% of my life or something. Like every so often, I feel like, oh, you know what? I want to like take a step back and redirect this. Or like, maybe I've only done that three times in my life and the rest of it is just going with the flow. But designing your life once you suddenly have more time or once you make a little choice where you're like, I'm actually not going to do this thing. I think it's really important. And because for me, like the thing, it was not difficult to stop drinking. But what was difficult was finding stuff to do with the time that emerged like a knit. I watched ASMR videos. I watched TV. I read thrillers. Because like, you know, it was like kind of real with myself. I was like, what do I actually like to do? And like a lot of it I didn't really know. But I was like, well, I know I like doing these kind of reading these like trashy books and watching TV and knitting. I want, I don't want it to sound like I've made real choices with myself. I think a lot of times when good things have happened, it's when I'm being realistic about my motivations. Yeah, like now my creativity is better too. But it's like, you gotta be real. And also like, I wanted to like stick it to some people who thought I would probably never be able to. So you're like a harness like spite a little bit too. And anyway, so like you just work with yourself and like your real impulses. I totally, you know, of course. And I think like the idea that everything has to be like in this neat tidy little package where it like makes sense all at once. And like I'm doing it for pure reasons is a big reason why a lot of people never make changes. This also you were asking about running and that was like, well, running was was it sort of makes sense in retrospect, but I stopped drinking like nine years ago. And then I started running six years ago. And that seems very close. But really, there's three years, which you know, is a lot. So like that, there was a lot of energy that was just there. So eventually through a very lucky chain of events, like started running, like COVID was involved, I had to found this other exercise class that was like pretty good. I did that for like two years. And then COVID closed the exercise studio. And I was like, well, I'll do anything but run because I know I hate running because the running is like the worst thing. I'd like tried it a couple of times was like completely the wrong fit for me. To the point where I was like, well, I'm sure that I'd be good at some kind of exercise, but it's certainly not running because like my body's not right. Like the way it moves is just like physically deeply wrong, like it just absolutely never, never going to happen. And then yeah, as much lower stakes, sort of like, well, let's just do let's just I'm going to walk I'll walk around the park during COVID and join this Strava group, which is an app for running another exercise logging. So you can it's basically like a social media for exercise. So if you if you do a run or a walk, you can show it to all your friends on Strava and they'll be like, oh, good job. You did a run. So that was like positive feedback. And then yeah, I just sort of like started running, punctuated the running, walking, running, walking, and then then eventually you can just like kind of keep running. I also had this idea that you're supposed to breathe through your nose. Yeah, where it's like, Oh, if you don't breathe through your nose, you're like an animal, you have to breathe through your mouth, you must stop immediately, like you're going to die or something like that's just such terrible form. And then my friend was like, that's not true. And I was like, Oh, really? She's like, you know, everybody breathes through their mouth when they run. I was like, Are you serious? Yeah, it's true. So yeah, so I just breathe through my mouth like everybody else who runs. I'm breathing through every or I'm like a pretty good runner now and I have to breathe through my mouth all the time. What other than where you're breathing? What are you thinking about while you're on? Nothing special. I ruminate like in a fight with my husband. I'll think about how wrong he is and how right I am. I don't know. It's like, when you're a runner, you want to convince other people to run, but I know that nobody wants that. Yeah, that's like, and it's never worked. Like everyone's been trying for a long time, but like nobody cares. No one's like, I'm not a runner and I hate running, but I'm just going to like pay attention to some of these essays that these like proud people want to share. But so, so I'm always like trying to reach myself if I could have been encouraged to run earlier, but like it was it would never have happened. So people always tell me that when they run, they like get to a place where like their mind clears and they're in this year, four state and when I am running, I am only thinking about when will I be able to stop that's like when I run, I'm like, just get to the sign and then you can stop and I get to sign and go, Okay, just go to the tree. But like it is just like a constant hostage negotiation in my head. How often do you run? Very rarely. Okay, well, I think with running, I got to a point where I could maintain a trot sort of indefinitely. Wow. That felt like I had started like a new phase of life. Because when people say like, Oh, I just want to like a half hour run, I'm like, what do you mean? That's how I feel. And then very quickly, actually, I was able to get to that point, like within a few weeks. Just like trotting. I was like, Oh, I get it now, like you can just kind of keep going. And I was like, Oh, I'm like a, it was a good feeling. So like those are some of the good feelings. And then you get to a point where you're not thinking about running, you're just kind of thinking about whatever and it can kind of hurt. But that's just part of it. You're just sort of thinking about something else. So you talked about how after you stopped drinking, like quite literally Google, like what do people do other than drink and like, you know, three years later, you started running, you know, you used to mostly be a writer, then you started publishing your artwork as well. So there's been this process of like self-discovery of asking yourself, like, what is it that I do? And how do I spend my time? How has that process been an ongoing process? And how has it been something where like you've found things, and you want them to stick and be pillars? I just do what I like to do. I think that's a great answer. I think that is the answer. I mean, because my question is kind of like, how often do you figure out what you like to do and how often do you just stick? I feel like what I'm trying to say and what you're maybe trying to ask, which is maybe not true at all, is like, yeah, how do you find what you like to do? And how do you take a moment to be like, do I even like what I'm doing right now? And like, how do I change it? I think a lot of it is just luck, like looking back on my own circumstances. That's why it feels difficult for me to recommend things to people because like, a lot of it has just been chance and luck and being fortunate that's the things I like to do are pretty easy. Like, oh yeah, I still like to draw. Like, I love to draw as a kid. It's like, I still really like to draw and I like to write. It's like, I do my little writing and I do my little drawing and I do my little writing and somehow it's just like really fun and it hasn't run out. And I didn't know that I liked running. That was totally new. Like, I thought I had no sports stuff. If you want to find stuff that you might like to do, sometimes it's useful to think about things that you know that you hate doing. Because like for me, I like, well, I hate, hate running. I'm like, I hate bicycling. It's like maybe someday I'll get into biking. Something that I think about a lot with this is like, I know that I'm so different than the person I was five years ago and certainly not the person I was 10 years ago or 15 years ago, but I sometimes forget that like, the person who I will be in five years is really different than who I am now. Like, I think like, surely this is me now. Yeah, like, okay, I've finally gotten to the place where I coast until until it's over. Now I'm me. And the answer, but the answer is dull. It's like, just keep testing everything you think you know about yourself is probably not true. It's like, well, great. Like, what does that even mean? Like, I don't know. Realistically, I don't know. I think it's just like being open to new experiences and retrying things. Because sometimes like the situation is just totally different or you're totally different. Edith, thank you so much for being on the show. This was an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you for having me. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Edith Zimmerman. Her newsletter is called Drawing Links, and you can find more from her, including her Etsy store where you can buy cards and prints and all kinds of other cool art stuff at EdithZimmerman.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me, about how to laugh more every day is available for preorder right now. You can find more about my book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are cartoonishly wonderful. On the Ted side, we've drawn together Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Laini Latt, Tenzika Sunmanivong, Antonia Leigh, and Joseph DeBrain. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas, who believe in honesty and truth-telling. And on the PRX side, we've got Artists of Audio, Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a person who you think is cartoonishly wonderful, someone who you would like to see drawn into a cartoon, or just a person you think would enjoy this. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening. Sounds like a lawnmower, doesn't it? But it's actually the sound of someone's dream coming true. What's better than knowing that this tiny patch of turf is yours and nobody else's? Is it time to make your move? At Lloyd's, we're ready when you are. 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