Tim Cook, John Ternus, the FBI, and Star Wars, on the AppleInsider Podcast

hello welcome to the apple inside podcast i'm william gallagher our sponsors this week are masterclass and clawed by anthropic more about them later although if you're a subscriber to apple insider plus well then that's the last you'll hear of that plus you will get plus how many times can you say the word plus in one sentence you'll also get apple insider plus which this week as actually let's give some credit here this almost practically always or always this is the idea of my co-host wesley hilliard always hello and what's the idea this time anything happening anything on your mind at all well since it's such a dead week we figured we'd talk about tim cook for no reason um his legacy what is it uh the reason why i'm bringing this up and i wrote a little on the blog about it is i've seen a lot of really honestly just terrible hot takes about tim cook a lot of discussions about apple car for some reason uh we'll probably touch some on it in the main show but the the post show is definitely 100 tim cook what did he do for apple what what what is his history gonna be about we talk about steve jobs and his huge bombastic product releases and changing the world with ipod iphone mac uh what are we going to talk about with tim cook nothing apple vision pro let's not go there that's for later at this time uh we've all heard of tim cook and we can examine him in detail john turnus the new ceo um you said you've seen some things about cook i've been seeing preposterous things about john turnus people exclusively revealing what he's going to be like when i doubt he knows what he's going to be like um he is definitely definitely definitely no question going to be a clone of Steve Jobs and very definitely totally no he isn't he's going to be uh it's he'll be as if Tim Cook has never left I mean the truth is Tim Cook is becoming uh what executive in charge of Trump really um but Ternus is bringing his hardware engineering he's an engineer you know and he's a really interesting engineer for it I think that's all we can possibly know for now the most interesting thing obviously the topic of the day is going to be cook and turnis we have a few extra stuff at the end if we get there but we'll see how long we spend on this main subject because it's pretty much the whole show uh the most interesting thing i think about john turnis is that we know nothing about him except for his appearances in public i mean and that's easy to say about a lot of apple executives but this is especially true um we know where he went to college i don't think we know his wife's name if he uh he i think he's married people have mentioned in online forums that he's married if you search it uh google confidently says that he's married but if you follow it through uh it's a link to a post on linkedin which is a link to a nine to five mac article which has someone commenting in the comment section that he's married so google will tell you that he is I don't know. It's just interesting that he's continuing this we-know-nothing-about-the-guy kind of motif. Yeah, I think I might know a pixel more than you. One thing I can say is nobody knows his age, which is really frustrating because it's either 50 or 51. And if it's 51, then it's the same age as two of the previous CEOs. And I've forgotten which ones they were now. but I was digging into the statistics here. It's not a lot of digging, actually. William's like seven or eight Apple CEOs, all white male, mostly around the same age. It's a diverse group, really, it is. But, Tennis, there's two things I thought were really interesting when I was digging into him this week. And one is that his first big appearance was in 2017, when, I don't know if this has been before your time, Apple did a very unusual thing of coming out to talk about future plans, basically for pro Mac users, and it was about the Mac Pro and things like that. You read the transcript. Mac Roundtable. Yes, that's the phrase. Thank you. I could not bring that to mind. You read the transcript of that, and there's Phil Shearer, there's Craig Federici, and they're being their usual interesting, entertaining selves, and Ternus is silent. It's way, way down, when suddenly there's a slightly technical question, and boom, he's off. He has the answer to that, and then he's in the conversation. She's making all sorts of comments for it. And again, he's as interesting as the other two. But it's funny that that was 2017, because also that year is, I believe, and I know he did this, he presented at WWDC. He presented the New Mac lineup. So, I mean, WWDC or around. In that year, he announced New Macs and things. And he was good. He was fine. He was capable. He didn't have that kind of flair that Craig Federici came into being with. but he had it and you kind of knew he knew his stuff but then flash forward and i missed this i don't know how we john terns has been so under the radar that i don't think many people noticed he gave a commencement speech at his college in 2024 and he was fascinating in it i mean talking about um it was an engineering college he was talking about engineers and that that mindset that desire to solve problems and make things better for it was just really riveting stuff and also funny because he admitted having nearly wrecked uh university of pennsylvania's one and only cnc milling machine um he said it was given an aim of crash for the rest of his time there so the guy's funny he knows his engineering he's he has a lot of team champion are you just making that up or do you know no he was he was on the college swim team and uh apparently well so someone was kind of poking fun at this because apparently like it was almost by default like he he won a race almost by accident but like he was on the swim team and he definitely looks like he was on the swim team uh people have been talking about his appearance a lot and he's he's he's been kind of a fitness guy okay yeah well you know and um he may not be behind the apple watch but um like well he was behind the apple watch because hardware uh do you know what his current so this is this is fun there are two hardware chiefs at apple senior vice presidents one's hardware engineering and one is uh hardware the other one the design is that marley yes yes yeah no no no i'm talking about johnny shiruji and john oh right right sorry okay yeah two johns yeah actually i want to just take a second step back there i was really sarcastic about uh descriptions of ternus's opinion opinion appearance and I made the crack of what is he a woman and that's not because I think you should be but because women for god knows why reasons are forever picked on this not used to a man being doing it so I suppose it's fair is it more egalitarian we should just stop it all but anyway Johnny Surugi who as we know as we know definitely was definitely going to leave Apple no he wasn't uh but has now been tempted to stay by being given a longer title is that what you mean well i well we're gonna have to discuss rujy well we're probably gonna be bouncing around a little bit because all there's a lot of crossing connection points here so just to go down the news list suddenly it's a monday afternoon and there's just a post on apple newsroom out of nowhere john turnus to step in as apple ceo as as tim cook becomes executive chairman and then five seconds later johnny suruji promoted to chief hardware officer which is a new uh thing that didn't exist before um i didn't realize that yeah it's funny uh because i've been using it and i don't know if i've been wrong to use it but it's uh he's getting pushed from you know being a vice president it's still vice president but it's senior vice president role to a c-suite role now senior vice president might have been c-suite i don't know But C, meaning chief, right? So C-suite, chief executive officer. There's Apple's chief financial officer, chief operations officer. Now there's a chief hardware officer, which means he's basically a half step down from CEO now instead of being a senior vice president. And what he's done is absorb John Ternus' responsibility. So he's still chip fab. He is still Apple Silicon, as you said, hardware design. but he is now also hardware engineering is it hardware design i'm gonna have to look because that's gonna drive me nuts it does feel like different roles i mean it's not like when uh johnny ive um took over software design as well as hardware but it feels like somebody who's great with processors isn't automatically going to be great with hardware engineering is basically hardware design so we were conflating um it's hardware engineering which was john turnus's position and hardware technologies, which is Johnny Suruji's position. They are now one, right? And it makes sense. So what Suruji is basically done now, I don't want to get, I don't want to pick, this isn't pick on German week, but we seem to be coming back to this a lot because he's had a lot of very odd reporting lately. And we'll get into more of that later. But one of his odd reports has come back to haunt us of Suri G claiming not that he was going to retire, but that he was going to move to a different company at 61 years old, even though he's senior vice president at Apple, the highest position in his field until now, and accomplished more than anyone could ever accomplish in his field with Apple Silicon. and he was going to leave for God only knows what, pay? Definitely not substantial gain or popularity. Who knows? But he was apparently leaving, according to some person, someone, some tipster that overheard an email. I don't know. Sorry, overheard an email. I like that description. Can I just point out, if he'd gone to Intel, he could have saved Intel. He could have been a hero there. Yeah, okay. It was never going to happen. But now we're retroactively making up a story. Sorry, I'm not going to accuse anyone of making anything up. A person familiar with the matter has clarified that Suruji was definitely going to leave until Tim Cook bribed him with this new C-suite position. But it couldn't happen until Tim Cook stepped down and Ternus took over and suddenly Suruji was going to be promoted. and he just had to wait a couple more months and he would get that super special fancy type. All nonsense. It's retconning. That's what it is. Yes. Total nonsense. The reality is, is Tsuruji earned this position. The man created the modern world of Apple with Apple Silicon. And so chief hardware officer, a C-suite position where he's going to probably spend the next five years, 10 possible years, at least five, I would assume, basically building out the teams that will ultimately replace them, which is every leader's job, by the way. We'll get into more of that later. If you're a good leader, there's two things that you do. One of them is delegate. And the second thing you do is find your replacement. That's checkbox one and two, if you ever are in charge of something. I think I might've worked in some harsher corporations than you. I'm not thinking the bbc i'm not but you find your replacement and you get rid of them that's what you do you get them out you get finished okay you find out who could possibly take over for you and exactly make sure that they're incompetent yeah so anyway turn uh sorry suruji is now in charge of this and he has brought in he has announced his five officers below him i called them their his underlings which is I guess a meaner way of saying, yeah, he's basically delegating, right? How do you run such a large division? Because we're talking about a huge portion of Apple, right? Hardware engineering is design, manufacturing, testing, everything. It's the people who come up with the new keyboard that breaks in the MacBook, right? It's the people who come up with the more rounded corners on the Apple Watch. now paired with and the same leadership as the guy who's helping design the chipsets and suruji's known as a hands-on guy but now he he has to step back and i think maybe he wants to because he's he's done the job and according to some reports he's pretty i don't know strict is the word maybe he's he's not going to be a walk in the park as they say he's going to be very much in the game. He's not going to be sitting in an office waiting for a report. I think he's going to be walking the floors and checking on what's going on. And that's going to be good, I think, for Apple. I mean, it's not that Ternus wasn't doing that, but having him go from Apple Silicon, which is doing so well, maybe hardware technologies needs a little bit that too so it's just a side point but i'm i've i'm hearing this might become a thing do you remember where you were when you heard that tim cook was stepping down you were at work weren't you i was i was uh it was my shift yeah so it was just we were kind of blindsided what's funny is i was trying to write a story i believe about savant coming back in july and that's a very touchy subject because somehow it involves charlie Kirk so that's a whole thing um and I'm sitting here trying to do research on terrorism in America and then suddenly Tim Cook is announcing he's stepping down and I'm just overwhelmed by all of it but yeah it kind of wild I was actually in our living room uh Mike texted me and I'm sitting there with Angela my wife and I want to tell her I want to tell her but she's watching a YouTube video and i can tell i check on my phone and my phone will show me the apple tv because i can see there's an hour left on this video and i don't want to yeah and then she gets notification on her phone from some news outlet it broke the news before me i was thoroughly annoyed she stopped watching to talk to me about it i could have interrupted anyway so yes i remember where it happened why did i go down that line okay um more seriously about why why do you think this happened now because one of the reports that followed afterwards the kind of inevitable report was is tim cook ill i truly believe that cook would see out the current administration and the the proper launching of apple intelligence but instead he seems to have waited for the 50th anniversary celebrations and for apple stock to vest which i know it did on april the 15th and i honestly i'm not fully sure what vesting stock means but those decisions were made so far in advance. He's not even making them. It's a requirement. He sells them every now and then just because he's trying to liquefy his assets. Cook's made it clear he doesn't want to be a multi-billion trillionaire. He sells his stocks when he can at the legal limit and basically donates it and invests it and stuff like that. He's not doing it to become rich and go live on an island. So to your point, does this feel like it came out of nowhere and i'm i'm going to say no uh two sides to this the moment the news broke that was quite shocking but i think the fact that it was the news and it is john turner's i thought they actually seeded it very well for a very long time nobody had the slightest surprise that it was turner's we all had the surprise that it was now kind of thing. So yeah, they did a good job. We knew it was coming. We didn't know when. And we talked about it here on the show. I was pretty adamant about Cook not going anywhere until the end of the administration. But we also were hedging our bets on, well, if he is going to be executive chairman, he could just be an ambassador, which Apple has literally now said out loud. They didn't hide it. They were just said, oh, Tim Cook as executive chairman will continue to be the government liaison for apple which means he's going to deal with china india brazil and uk and eu and the united states all the fun stuff yeah yeah which keeps turnus hands clean um i think that the reason why it's not out of nowhere and we didn't know the timing and i was skeptical that it was 2026 cook clearly doesn't want to go anywhere but i think you know you got to get out while the getting's good and this is the peak of his legacy moment he's we'll get more into this in the um apple insider plus segment but i think cook's strengths have reached a point where they can start to they're they've they're going to start diminishing soon meaning the supply chain is going to start showing some weakness because of global unrest uh the emergence of spatial computing is going to be slow and difficult to achieve, even though it is their new goal for the future. Apple Health is going to expand and continue to be the new tentpole feature for Apple, and that is going to be part of Cook's legacy. But because of federal regulations, it's going to complicate things. So Cook got the ball rolling on a lot of things, but now we're going to get into the tough portions of those rollouts and he gets to walk away and say i started it you had you have it now it's your job so you don't type i mean i'm with you on health right but logistics that is has always been his bag uh wouldn't you think that the supply chain having difficulties would actually be the opposite it would be a time for him to do his doings more the world's going to move on with or without Tim Cook. Again, I think we'll get to this in a second, but I wrote a blog post too about this kind of hero worship that we have for these executives, not just Apple, but in general, like people know the names of these tech executives and they follow everything they say and do. And I don't know that that's really that important. I mean, it's fun to follow what they're doing, and they can sometimes be entertaining or sometimes just cringy looking at McDonald's, but it's one of those things where Wall Street has made it a point that they move on news of an executive changing. And I understand the importance of an executive I understand that their decisions can make or break a company But at a certain point a company is too big for that executive to make too much of a dramatic change. To be clear, when John Ternus takes over, nothing is going to change at Apple externally for years. I mean, he's going to have his own ideas and we're going to see tiny shifts in certain places, right? It's like telling a tanker, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Cook is an important asset to Apple and he has done amazing things for Apple, but it's also Apple has done a lot of good things for Apple. It's not a monolith. It's thousands of employees, hundreds of, you know, managers and dozens of executives making decisions up and down the chain to make sure this thing runs as smoothly as possible. And Cook has helped with that. But the whole point of leadership is making sure that your replacement can continue the job. And if your replacement can't continue the job, it's your failure as a leader. You didn't prepare them enough. You didn't pick the right person. And I have no doubt that John Ternus is going to be good at the job. And we're going to see that reflected in future decisions he makes to change Apple in ways that he wants it to be changed. But as you said, it takes a long time to make those changes. It's not like we're going to walk out in September and suddenly there's a MacBook with an Ethernet cable in it or something, right? Like it's just not going to happen. It's funny you say that about CEOs though. I wouldn't have said I knew, I could think of any CEOs of companies other than technology ones and maybe that's because I work in that field. But then you mentioned McDonald's and look at the way Ronald McDonald dresses. He does stand out. So, okay, yeah, they do get some attention for it. And I'm not sure John Tennis has that rock star appeal, but then neither did Tim Cook, and he gets treated like one. Okay. I'm curious about where... September the 1st, we should say, is when John Tennis officially takes in. I mean, doubtlessly, he already has. He's doing the job now, I'm sure. He's shadowing or being shadowed. I imagine that WWDC will still be fronted by Tim Cook this year. it'll be his bow out what do you think tricky maybe they walk out together um that it'll be interesting to see how they produce this one but i have a feeling uh i don't know i mean this is one of those things where turnus is still like he's still svp technically of hardware engineering he's still in that role transitioning his uh you know to suruji and suruji's uh underlings but i don't know what that reflects as right it really just depends we might get a little peek under the hood apple's corporate culture like like you said is he already technically acting ceo i don't think so not not on paper not legally speaking but i would assume that a lot of this transition has already more or less taken place as they ramp up towards the fall because the last thing you want happening on September 1st is actual handover. It should already have been handed over because the iPhone is... Here's my office. Yes, okay. It doesn't happen. It's about to launch, yeah. So it could be a bowing out for Tim. It could be a handshake moment. Maybe Tim walks out and says good morning and then Ternus just walks up and shakes his hand and takes over. Like, I think they could have a moment here. I think it might be fun. I think it'll be Cook's final bow kind of thing. I think also there might be some political things about it. I mean, there's got to be a thing going on in Apple. Craig Federici and Phil Schiller, do they have to start calling John Turner sir after the 1st of September? And how do they feel about that? I don't think they've ever been in that kind of company. Well, there was Dr. Gil Emilio. That was a thing, actually. But, yes. interestingly he denied he was blaming other people for that and yet he was doing it so yeah ceos what can you do okay um all right so that's wwdc sorted out i'm still interested in the whole seruji thing because it's uh well apart from the fact that i've now learned to pronounce his name so i want to keep you know saying it to prove that the move from processor to the rest of it i think apple's always apple has always pursued this idea of owning the whole stack of doing the whole thing itself um uh until recently it had to get modems in but it's got those of itself now it wants to own everything so that it can control everything and everything can work together but one things i read about suruji was a headline that said this was apple's the start of apple's drive to do its own processors and i'm thinking does it not i mean i know they use arm but apple designs them tsmc makes them i don't understand if there could be any processor difference with this change or am I missing something really obvious? I don't know that headline sounds stupid to me I didn't read that story that they already make their own processors uh they're making their modems they're making their own wi-fi chips um top to bottom Apple is controlling its silicon I'm not sure what the story was getting at but Suruji uh being oversight of the entire hardware team uh doesn't really change anything in that aspect they're going to continue pursuing more ways to vertically integrate hardware and software. They're going to continue replacing every possible part inside of the product. Maybe Apple starts making their own batteries. I don't know. But I don't think that has anything to do with Tsurugi. One thing I think was interesting about some of the stories coming out was this usual attempt to spin everything as a failure um yes okay you know tim cook's leaving now because ai is so bad he had to quit or um oh no that's one i didn't see oh that's very persuasive you know i could think about that one a lot okay yeah like he's so he's so embarrassed by ai he he just had to up and quit and give it to uh somebody else to take the dot whatever stupidity and then there's like stories about suruji oh no suruji can't run the entire hardware division himself he had to choose new chiefs or whatever and it's just like no he's delegating right like right i don't know if you again i don't know if you understand how businesses work but johnny suruji is not in the lab like mixing vials together and finding the perfect component mixture or whatever like he has people for that. That's Frankenstein image. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So he chose Tom, these are names I'm not going to get correct. Tom Marriott, he was formerly Integrity Chief. He's now going to be Chief Hardware Engineering. The new Silicon Chief is Sriabalan Santhornam. So tell me if I said that horribly wrong uh you said that's horribly wrong yeah i don't know you you asked me so okay right yes silicon engineering group uh basically same so i i don't think anything changed there um zhang zhian chen i don't know i can't do chinese uh letter combinations i need to learn those better i can do japanese all day but chinese have different combinations um uh maybe zhang zhian Chen, but Zhang Zhang Chen, maybe? Anyway, I'll have to learn that better. VP in charge of wireless chips is, I believe, another way of saying advanced technologies, which means no change. Maybe a change, I don't know, but he has been moved to advanced technologies. And then platform architecture, same. Tim Millett, we've seen him before. And project management, Donnie Nortius, same position. So those are the five areas of focus and the five people in charge of those areas of focus that will be reporting directly to Johnny Suruji. And I found it really entertaining because the same story, or at least maybe a different story, this was the Suruji wanted to quit story. And oh, that's it. There was a story about, there's been like 12 Bloomberg stories this week about the transition and all of them that, I don't know, they're really going hard here trying to monetize or at least drive the market on this news. But one of the stories was about how upset people are and turnus is gonna have this yeah yeah he's gonna have trouble keeping his people because they're all gonna quit and everyone's leaving apple and there's no engineers left or whatever because if you've been following the stories um over the past year and a half or so everyone's quit apple and gone to intel and spotify or something yeah we actually worked it out that there are only 164 000 people left at apple that we calculated it so Yes. Yeah. I read those stories too, but I'm doubtless. If you do Trump math on this, that's a 16,000% decrease. Moving on. There will be people who wanted to get these jobs and didn't get them. It happens the same in any company for it. There will be people who leave maybe over this, but they're going to be reported as leaving because of Ternus. Every person that quits include, I swear we're going to hear about a janitor next week. is going to be because John Ternus took over. So go ahead and prepare yourself. We're going to have 100 articles between now and December about every single person who's leaving is mad because John Ternus is terrible and they think the future of the company is in danger or whatever. Although there's something to be said about that from the other side, which is something we'll say in a moment. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. You know, this Masterclass is famously where the very best people in their field have made you hours upon hours of really specific, really practical, really personal videos about their craft. It's like having them working with you. And the topics range across, well, everything. Certainly technology. You find a lot about that. But, for example, I'm a writer. And while this is a pretty broad ambition, not to say nebulous, what I wanted to do was get better at writing. So I had some lessons with Aaron Sorkin. Shonda Rhimes gave me a lot of tips. Margaret Atwood. 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One of the things we've heard about him rather than learned is that he is more decisive. I believe more decisive than Tim Cook. I believe that because the decision sounds like an engineer. This is a problem. Here's a solution. Do we do or do we not kind of thing? I could see him being quite methodical about that and getting it done. Whereas we have heard previously that Cook is more liable to take opinions from all sorts of people and go for a consensus. Ternus will fire people, I'm sure. And we will hear about it or not hear about it. I just don't know what else he's going to do. Well, that's another of Bloomberg's 30 stories about anonymous tipsters saying something about an email they overheard of just like, Ternus, whatever. You know, like, I just, I'm so tired of these anonymous tipsters says, like, because it's become a gossip column, William. Like, it's not, it's not even, like, news anymore. It's now, now we're sharing the opinions of other people about their bosses. It's just, I don't, I don't understand. Out of this, some good has come. We've now got your phrase of overhearing an email. That's going to be in my idiolect from now on because it fits so well. Okay. It's just, so Ternus might be more decisive. We don't know. Sure, that's great. What does that mean? Was Tim Cook sitting at the desk hemming and hawing over what color the iPhone should be? Well, sometimes. They're meaningless points. They're meaningless statements. Yeah, but you remember, according to Walter Isaacson, Steve Jobs' biographer, one problem Steve Jobs had with Tim Cook was that he was not a product person. he was great with so many in fact i think the full quote is that tim can do everything but he's not a product person and yet we have the story that did happen and has been confirmed by multiple sources of tim cook looking square at uh oh what is his name he's the new c uh cfo or so he looks square at sabby khan and he's just like what are you doing here why aren't you on a plane to China. Like that sounds pretty decisive to me. Like I knew, I seem to remember a Steve Jobs story like that. I didn't know Cook had done it as well. Wow. Okay. Yeah. No, there's, there's a story. Yeah. Um, basically I believe now I might be crossing stories here, so forgive me, but I believe this is the whole thing that happened around 2014 when, um, the new leader's name escaping is uh ping uh anyway um i can't what can i think of his name anyway the new leader of china who was definitely um slowly pushing china away from more democratic norms towards more what it is today uh one of the first things they did was have the um tell of it their state-run news run a story about how terrible apple is basically and how they're being unfair to chinese customers and i i believe that is the same moment that tim cook basically said we need to take care of this now and i believe it might have been uh sabi khan that would is one of the people getting sent on a jet direct without any clothes had to land in china and buy his anyway so just yeah Yeah, like examples like that tell me like Cook is a fine decision maker. And it's always so funny to me, like in any type of transition like this, people are going to be desperate to make comparisons. And they're going to try and choose teams. And so if they're like, oh, well, we're ready for the hardware guy. So they got to look for reasons why they hate Tim Cook now. and even though on paper tim cook increased the value of apple by like 1600 or something stupid yeah but remember john scully the most maligned ceo ever took apple from was it single digit millions into 800 million before he just seemed to lose interest really okay so yeah there is precedent for increasing money, just not anything like the scale Tim Cook did. It makes me curious. We're dancing around the subject because it's going to be the post-show, but truly makes me curious of how we're going to talk about Tim Cook in the future, because I have a feeling there's going to be a few sticking points that are going to color his legacy that maybe we don't have any control over and that's not going to be great for cook i think that's the problem i mean one of the things about steve jobs that stuck even though you know it might have been mildly exaggerated by media as far as we can tell was his attitude and like and then there's also like the whole thing with his kid that was definitely blown out of proportions by certain movies apparently um depicting him as very saintly over it but he was not he was not saintly but from my understanding and from again other people outside of the film industry saying it's not quite how it went like he was definitely not taking ownership of that child but at the same time he was not like screaming in a parking lot at her or whatever um now he named the lisa after although what was the nonsense um that they made up that lisa could stand for i can't remember the l but it's integrated systems architecture or some utter nonsense like that a background okay that's the word i love that word yes okay so there's that but i mean tim cook's legacy obviously he's going to try to put a legacy out and he already has the town hall meeting he had this week with apple staff one of the things we know about it is that he's talked about things that he think he got wrong um he actually what's the phrase it's only like the list of mistakes i made would be an extraordinarily long one um which goes beyond self-deprecation i think it was honesty yeah yeah i think that so people are going to cling to that because you know whatever but tim cook's a human being and he makes mistakes i think that's what he's referencing is like you I've made mistakes in my life. I chose the wrong jam at the cafeteria one day. That's a mistake. Of course, the mistakes we're talking about with Apple as a corporation, as an entity that we can observe, I don't know. There not that many what you could call quote mistakes missteps mistakes whatever you want to say for me I think it was a mistake I disagree with you Sorry What was the mistake I was going to say it was a mistake to pursue autonomous vehicles, but the end result was beneficial to Apple because of what they learned about AI and robotics. It was a mistake to chase down and even announce air power, but the end result was better because it's what allowed them to create mag safe and improve charging standards for basically everything because of it and chi charging and all of that so it's what is it edison he didn't make a thousand mistakes he made one light bulb or something like that like it's yeah people are always going to want to color these things they are i began to say that it's not like i disagree with you it's always what somebody says before they disagree with somebody um i i would have pointed to airpath i did um and there's also a big one is apple maps and actually an unusual thing this week is we learned why apple maps started so badly they didn't test it properly which i suppose we could have guessed but interesting to hear it i apple maps looked great at one infinite loop i don't know what the problem was yeah you can find your way around the whole of cappuccino no problem but uh i kind of like don't care about those i don't feel like there's anything uh we know of that cook did that was bad i mean there are things like that there's bad stuff apple does with unions and retail outlets and how it treats its suppliers and ultimately that has to fall on tim's shoulders because he could just stop it if he didn't want it so there's got to be things like that but overall it does feel like he got Apple to a great place and we are benefiting from it in the products we have that we wouldn't have otherwise so I'm I'm not am I pro Tim Cook or anti him well neither really I just think he had an incredibly difficult job I mean stunningly difficult unimaginably difficult and look how well he did how long he lasted I think that's the best answer because we really got to stop like i don't know idolizing these people they're very interesting and i would love to read a book about like their morning routine or whatever right like they're they're they're a fun study because we can learn a lot about these people who dedicate their lives to this business and achieved the position in the first place not anyone could step into apple ceo and do what tim cook did of course um they're but they're not gods and one of the one of my so the story that i would had me at my wits end this week was this idea that john turnus's biggest hurdle as apple ceo and this is this is my headline this is the headline they ran with his biggest hurdle as ceo is retention which is madness okay because because uh because uh we've talked about how people are at an age that likely the famous names nipple are likely to be retiring is that what it means he's going to try to persuade them to hang on what's even funnier is the story was hedged entirely on a statement made by a former Apple executive. Let me find his name. Well, while you look for it, I can tell you there have been seven CEOs of Apple, and five of them were fired from the post. No, not fair. Mike Markkiller actually stepped aside. Four of them were fired. Markkiller stepped aside. He helped hire John Scully, and then Steve Jobs obviously died, and now Tim Cook is resigning. But otherwise, you get fired when you're the Apple CEO. This episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic. It's AI that works. For example, I mean, truly, I'll try to say this quickly because it takes longer to describe than for Claude to do it for me. While Wes and I are recording this podcast, I will always push a Stream Deck button to mark a new chapter or various other things. And at the end, I end up with a list of timestamps. But maybe we started recording a few minutes early and also my timestamps, So I've done them. They're just in minutes. So, for example, this week, this episode, the recording session ended after 119 minutes. But it started four minutes and 23 seconds early. I need to know when I'm editing how far into the episode we have a chapter or a cough or something like that. So I take my list of times, my list of minutes and Claude resets it all to start from zero from the start of the recording. and, because I asked it to, also reformats all of the times so that instead of just minutes and seconds, it shows me hours, minutes and seconds. Now, I know this is far from the most complex thing Claude can do, but it took moments. And it makes editing so much easier and quicker. It's one of those things now where I wouldn't do it any other way. And why in the world would I? Plus, I'll tell you this. I tried exactly the same thing with ChatGPT and with Apple Intelligence, and they both got it wrong. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or you're strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. In my case, it lets me concentrate on editing instead of trying to calculate where 104 minutes and 35 seconds is when we started at four minutes into it yeah just madness for problems worth solving get started with claude at claude.ai slash apple insider that's claude.ai slash apple insider and check out claude pro which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode claude.ai slash apple insider And thanks to Claude from Anthropic for supporting the Apple Insider podcast in so many ways. So Tony Blevins, do you remember that name? Yes. He was the former procurement chief. Basically, he was Tim Cook's replacement, more or less. Now, this guy's been gone from Apple for a while. I don't have the data in front of me, but maybe 2022 or something. um and he did an interview and what's funny is the it's this is Bloomberg they mentioned the interview but there's no link or reference to even who did their interview or where it took place did Bloomberg do the interview they didn't even take credit for it I mean if it was them great tell me but they didn't even say who did the interview it was just in an interview in space and someone overheard it. And he said that, well, he was talking about a couple of things. He's the one who mentioned that Ternus is one of his biggest challenges. And this is actually not wrong. It's just so funny that this is the premise of the piece. So let's get to it. His biggest challenge is that Steve Jobs was basically the one who selected the almost entirety of the current Apple leadership, minus maybe three people who have since retired under Tim Cook. We're going to see Eddie Q and Craig Federighi and these big names start to finally move on, retire, change under John Ternus. and this is going to be a huge challenge to replace them. Here's the thing though. It's both right and wrong. They have big shoes to fill. Absolutely. I'm not going to downplay that. Those are very important people and we've grown to love them because of their presence in Apple Keynotes and these affairs where we get to see them and they've made memes of them and we get to be entertained by their presence. Otherwise, we wouldn't know their names if it wasn't for Apple's push to have these names out there. Other companies are not the same. Tell me who the chief hardware officer or chief engineering officer of Microsoft is right now off the top of your head. Sarah McFarland. I'm sorry. I just shot in the dark, made it up. I have a friend called Sarah. That's a good name. It worked, didn't it? I got to bluff this out for at least a minute. No one's going to check. No one's going to check. AI generated that. so okay anyway blevins's point was basically it is going to be a difficult thing and of course bloomberg i don't know built a whole story around this idea that not only is it bad that these people who have been at apple for 40 plus years someone asked chris espinoza how he's doing the whole like is he is he going to quit um employee number eight isn't he yeah something like that so the the idea is basically that yes it is going to be difficult and i agree with blevins on that point filling those shoes is going to be a lot we're going to miss craig federighi for sure as fans of apple and people who watch these keynotes here's the thing they're not going to have any trouble replacing them i think that's another point it's a difficult position to fill but they're not going to have any trouble filling it those both can be true at the same time the point of bloomberg's piece was like it's impossible to fill their shoes then everything's going to catch on fire and die um and then of course they go into that and they've lost like 12 engineers from ai and a dozen design members left with um alan die or what whatever i really dislike this piece because it just seemed very silly to me but my point here is once again stop at the hero worship we like craig federighi we're gonna miss his hair but he has already chosen who's going to replace him. That person is probably ready to go right now, sitting in the aisles, just going to step right in, in lockstep as if nothing changed. There are plans for products and designs and system software features and services for the next decade at Apple. The runway is long. It's not as if someone's going to get hit by a bus and then we're going to forget how to make an iPhone. right and so this this whole idea needs to stop because it's driving me crazy um we're going to be fine apple's going to be fine we've seen some really solid transitions in the last few years and this cook to turn his transition seems like it's probably going to be one of the smoother ones and if they can transition ceo that easily i think they're going to be fine on software and marketing Unless they all retire on the same day. That would be great. Oh, man. That would be interesting, wouldn't it? Bloomberg would be so excited. That would be the greatest day of their life. Moving on. I am trying to think, has there ever been a point? I mean, I'm totally with you. I just wonder, has there ever been a point in Apple's history when a significant number of senior executives have left or moved on for any reason at around the same time? And I don't think there has been. Last year? Like November? okay Craig Wickerugy's still there, Phil Schiller's still there well he's not doing a lot of Phil Schiller I'm not talking about that high oh that's what I'm thinking yeah one step lower we lost like the legal person and the environmental person we lost a lot of vice presidents at once and that was a heyday for Bloomberg it was like trouble in paradise, everyone hates Tim Cook ah and doesn't know he's going in a few weeks time they were going dull now. But they forgot to mention that they were all retiring. They don't want to die at their desk, William. Tim Cook might have that goal, but have some pride. Honestly, of all of that, the only one that surprised me was Lisa Jackson, because head of environment, Apple's doing this big thing for 2030. I suppose I'm thinking, I'm taking it for granted, she'd see that out. But, you know, you're right, they're still doing it, still going on. She did a great thing. She's doing whatever she does now. It happens, yes. Here's my hot take. I'm going to have one hot take and we can get a couple of hot bits in the floor. Okay, I have things to ask you. Yeah, okay. Your hot take is. So, John Ternus is going to kill the iPhone full. That's it. That's the hot take. He's going to look at this thing and be like, why are we building this? Cancel that project. And Tim Cook's going to be like, go for it, boss. And that's it. Okay, so Ternus starts on September the 1st. the announcement is due anytime from like the second week of september he could do it you're right that's that is well remember you heard it here first and quite possibly last okay not gonna happen but it's it's just fun these hot takes are so silly oh he could also kill off the apple vision pro couldn't he i mean why not let's get rid of it i saw someone actually say um opposite of that they're like maybe john turnist will become CEO and make everyone understand what Apple Vision Pro is. He built the thing. He was in charge of the division. It's okay. We're having fun here. I think it's going to be an interesting transition. I think it's going to be an interesting time for Apple. We just, as always, need to keep a cool head, dig through all of the manipulation and weird headlines, and just understand that these things are going to happen. Apple did not find the fountain of youth they did not invent a time machine these people will die eventually they have to retire we have to move on we have to move on it's okay it's okay we do move on but we we step away from terror like this and got something completely calm normal relaxing that is on my list of things to ask you about, which is just iOS 26.4.2 being released to stop the FBI accessing my messages and things. That's the headline I read. Is that actually what's going on? All right. So this is tricky. This is mildly political. I'm going to say a political thing. We're going to move on. So this story revolves around, I don't know if anyone listening, people in the united states might remember this story there was a kerfuffle um and someone's going to get mad at me for using that word to describe what happened uh at a ice detention center where people were vandalizing the facility and setting off a bunch of fireworks and one person brought a rifle and shot a police officer in the neck it was a whole thing um and they were arrested and they were designated this was their they were really excited about this one they were they were designated antifa which is a made-up um terrorist organization by the trump organization it doesn't exist it's an ideology they don't they don't exist anyway they were designated that and this was going to court as this big deal and the fbi wanted to prove that first of all there was a secret antifa leader and collusion and all this stuff so they got a hold of their iphones and used a forensic tool and what and that's a fancy way of saying they bought uh something from an israeli firm, Celebrite probably, or Gray Key, that allows them to break into iPhones as best as it can. Now, we talked about these things in the past. They're not like perfect hackers. What happens is they're looking for vulnerabilities. If you have the latest iPhone and the latest patch, it's going to get like nothing. It's going to get whatever is not encrypted on your device, basically. Loose notifications that haven't been deleted yet and just scraps of data about time and place GPS location type stuff. It gets almost nothing. The older you get and the older the OS version you get, the more they can crack and steal because they're using vulnerabilities, which Apple patches very quickly. It's one of the reasons why it's important to update your device. Well, they plugged in this phone that had the owner of the phone that was involved in this incident at an ICE facility deleted Signal off of their phone because they had used Signal to communicate what their plans were. But the FBI was still able to get a lot of their conversation, even with the app deleted, because Notification Center, the notification system on iPhone, had stored basically plain data of the notifications of the messages coming in. Some of them might have been chopped off and only said part of it, but it had the raw data of Signal, even without the app installed, and they were able to recover information from that. And the FBI testified that that's what they had done in court. Except, hang on, would that data have been the actual messages or the Apple intelligence summary? Because it could be ludicrously wrong what's been taken by the FBI. Well, the trick is the summary collapses the data, but the data is still there. Okay. That's a funny thought, but all right. To be fair, this was a failure of two things. One, it was a bug, actually, in Apple's notification system. It's supposed to be deleting those notifications pretty quickly, especially as a part of the app bundle when the app is deleted. So something went wrong there, and things were being kept longer than they should have. Also, this is a failure of the Signal user. They had a feature turned on in settings, which you can still turn off, that allows notifications to be visible on the lock screen. You don't really want that from an encrypted messaging app that you're using for your secret communications. Turn that off. No wonder I can't be a criminal. I would never have thought of that, and it's so obvious now you've said it. Okay, yes. So you can actually set it up granularly in the Signal app and say only show the name of the sender and not the message. but this person had the messages coming through as well sorry i've got to tell you this because this is just flashbacks but i was once in a pub sitting opposite almost a whole group of us and i i worked out that this woman was having an affair because she kept getting texts from an unknown number and there was something furtive about it and it turned out she'd kept him as unknown so that nobody would spot it and yet i worked it out in front of her i was i felt quite sure like holmesie at that point but okay yeah and so this shouldn't have happened now okay so this to be clear this isn't a story about apple is trying to stop the government from solving crimes right that's not the story that's how people might try to pitch it but the story is this is a security flaw that should not be there and apple patched it with ios 2642 so now those notification center system stuff should now be more robust and protected and no longer able to be scraped by these forensic tools and the data should be deleted, uh, when it's supposed to be. So that been reinforced by Apple and I sure the FBI doesn like that They never like anything to do with encryption to be fair um because it does hinder their access to criminal devices But as we said before in the show they were solving crimes before the iPhone I'm sure they can solve crimes after encryption. So there were these two more things. I said there were three things I wanted to ask you. One of them is really quick. One of them I have a feeling might take a while. Let's do the quick one first. A 200 megapixel camera is coming to the iPhone. but not yet. And it might be later than people said before, though I don't remember when they said it would be before. Why do I care about a 200 megapixel camera? This came alongside another one, which I didn't put in the notes of a curved aperture lens. So Apple obviously is just working on advancements for its camera systems. We've done quite a lot. It's hard to do more in the space that we have without making the phone into a DSLR basically. So one of the things that we can do is increase resolution, but you're not going to be taking a 200 megapixel photo. This is one of those Samsung galaxy gimmicks that they have where they do have like an obnoxious, probably 200 megapixel. I know it's 100. I'm sure some phone now is 200 where they pixel bin and they combine or they combine the pixels together to make one big pixel, basically. And that's what Apple would do here. They would bend it down to 24 or maybe they would increase to like 30 or whatever the multiple would be for 200 megapixels. But so it would definitely be bend and you would definitely be getting a normal 24, 48 megapixel shot from this lens. It just means more pixels available to designate. You're going to be a focus pixel. You're going to be a light sensor. You're going to be a long exposure you're going to be short exposure and that can all be in one cluster uh across the the view of the lens and get this really dynamic computer uh manipulated not manipulated but um what's the word apple used to use computation about it is it computational photography computational photography we haven't talked about it in a while but that's basically what it would be doing is multiple combining multiple exposures and multiple frames maybe they might take a black and white uh shot with some of the pixels to um get more texture information to recombine that back with the original image there's a lot of really cool stuff you can do with computational photography um but that's what more megapixels would allow currently the max on iphone is 48 megapixels so okay so nice but uh i shouldn't be distraught if it doesn't come out in the iphone 18 pro max it'll be cool if when it when it happens and if it happens these things are only going to get bigger um but you're i'm sure there's a button somewhere a raw mode that'll let you take a 200 megapixel photo which in reality means that you could print it on a billboard and it be the size of a billboard and visible like 200 megapixels is gigantic i remember buying a sony uh camera and it was one of the first with like 60 megapixels. And I was asking someone about it and they're like, oh yeah, this just means the dots per inch can be bigger more or less when you're printing and the resolution's bigger. So at 60 megapixels, that's basically like the size of a 20 foot poster on your wall. It's already just gigantic how big these things can get. Think about it like this. A 4K television is basically the equivalent of a 12 megapixel photo. A 65-inch, 4K television is a 12 megapixel photo. Yeah, so it's enormous. Yeah, gigantic images. Yeah, it's made me think. Yeah, it'll come or it won't. The thing I thought would take longer is, because it involves the Apple Vision Pro. This is another one where I only know the headline. So actually, if you don't know the story either, this could be shorter than I think. Star Wars. I presume it's the Mandalorian film whatever the latest Star Wars movie is they have saved some money by using Apple Vision Pro instead of what? I don't know do you? so I wrote this story, Jon Favreau I really like this guy go watch Chef, if you like movies go watch the movie Chef it is just it is a I'll go read the script it will just make you happy It will just make you happy. It is a happy film. Go watch Chef. It'll make you hungry too. But yes, Jon Favreau, actor turned director. You might know him as Happy from the Marvel franchise. He was Iron Man's assistant. Then he started directing Marvel movies. It's great. He also stepped in and started directing Mandalorian. He's also the director of the Lion King remake that was kind of quote unquote live action. It was just CGI. But anyway, he has always been of the opinion that technology should amplify how we can make film. And one of the examples of that is in Lion King, obviously a CGI film made on computers. How do you direct a movie that doesn't exist, right? In Pixar and stuff like that, you just see it on a computer screen. Well, he kind of leaned into the idea of putting on a VR headset. At the time, it would have been an Oculus Rift, and there was the other one that's escaping me. But he was wearing these. No. No, no, no. No one ever used those. So no one ever once used those. So he would wear these headsets and be inside of a virtual studio and direct where the animals should go and how they should be interacting from previs. and that was a really cool way to do that. Well, when he started directing Mandalorian, they're making it, I don't know if you know this, William, I'm sure the listeners might, if they watch Star Wars, it's a green room. It's not even a green screen. It's a giant felt room with nothing in it except some boxes to use as props and furniture. And the actors are in full dress. The guy's there in the Mandalorian armor and then the aliens in a mocap suit, right? And they're just on this green stage of nothing and they're performing the entire of everything. Tatooine, green room, the bar scene, green room. It doesn't matter. It's just, it's the same stage. And it is amazing the actors can do this at all. I don't understand how they can pull it off. Hang on a second. Star Wars famously used green screens for everything and that was just impossible. How did you ever know where to go? the mandalora in the tv show used this thing called the volume which was this wall of led screens which was actually showing things on it for you to react against and it was affecting the line stuff is the film not doing that well so i my my bad i i might be confusing it with something else my understanding is it's a virtual set so maybe you're maybe i misunderstood different types It's a virtual set, but yes, it certainly isn't real. Yes. So in any case, it's still difficult to film and frame on a virtual set if it's green screen or the dot matrix that you're talking about. Whatever they're using here, the point of the matter is Favreau sitting in his director's chair can't really view how it's going to be seen as the end result. Well, in television, it's easier because the camera can be connected to a TV and he can look at the monitor and say, oh, that's what it's going to look like. Mandalorian Grogu is being filmed in IMAX. Oh, great. I didn't know that. There's no such thing as an IMAX television. IMAX is a very specific format. So the only way to see IMAX is in an IMAX theater. Now, he's not going to stop the film, grab the copy, drive down to the nearest IMAX theater and watch it to see if he got it right. Instead, he's got the Apple Vision Pro with a custom app that lets him view the footage on an IMAX screen in a virtual theater. Oh, I see. Right, right. I've got you. Finally, that makes sense. Sorry, it took me a minute to get there. So what's cool about this? I just had a faintest idea. What could it possibly be for it? But now I get that. Thank you. Okay. That's good. Yeah. And the reason why this is saving money, and he was on a podcast called The Town. We've discussed it before. Good show. So he was describing basically the problem with filming, obviously making these visually intensive movies is expensive. CGI is expensive. But one of the most expensive things about filming is getting the shot and then throwing it away. because it wasn't the right framing so he's basically saying everything that ends up on the cutting room floor whether it's a deleted scene that they didn't use or something that wasn't filmed correctly or needed reshoots that is all actually much more expensive than just making the film itself so the vision pro lets him frame the shot properly for imax see it how it's going to be seen by the audience and allows them to grab the shot immediately and uh he says the only thing that takes away from is when you do have to do a reshoot you've already been in the seat looking at all the footage from every angle and so when you walk into the reshoot you know the exact angle and frame and direction that you need to give uh allowing you to get the perfect shot so it does take away from that aspect of it but being able to see it pre-vis and all of that on apple vision pro gives him the ability to kind of skip all those steps and arrive at the final shot without having to reshoot i mean we could talk a lot about that because there are other reasons to delete a scene then it doesn't work and you don't know to see the thing as a whole uh for it and then um oh what's his name eddie something you edit the mission impossible films is talking about taking out individual frames to tighten up the dialogue for it there's all sorts of things going on which is riveting but another point of view i'm i'm fascinated by that uh okay um but um that was it for the type of things we want to talk about for the day but there is also an issue uh i understand you am i right that you have some reviews to read out this time i'm not sure right so if you have enjoyed our show or maybe you hate our show or want to tell us an opinion or share a tip or anything like that, the best way to do it is Apple Podcasts because we check that every week for new reviews. You can leave as many stars as you feel like. And we like the criticism. We like the compliments. So this week we have two new reviews. First is, I should have read this name before I tried to read it live on this show. uh krishna can't i guess maybe i'm off 26 uh five stars will they really call this the iphone fold they're skeptical they're going to call it an iphone at all it could be a whole new category between iphone and ipad so and they suggest the iphone maybe i it's not going to be called iphone fold uh that's our as we've said before it's a placeholder um i think it's going to be an iphone because if they call it anything else, let's say a Newton, it's just not going to sell because it doesn't have the buying power. Clearly, they're going for iPhone because if you look at the dummy models, the shape and size is very iPhone-specific. So it will be some kind of iPhone. It's just what is its name? I don't think it's going to be Ultra. But we'll see what they do here. The iPhone Neo. Well, no, that wouldn't fit. The iPhone William. I could wear any of these, really. But, yeah, okay. Not that long till we find out now, I suppose. Six months or something like that? Seems. You know, you say that and suddenly it seems longer. But, okay. I'm sure you're right. It won't be called the iPhone Fold. But that's going to bother you now. It won't be called anything, William, because it's not going to come out. Because John Ternus is going to stop it. You're right. He's going to cancel it. Okay. You guys have to understand. Yeah, you heard it here second. Okay. Oh, no. Okay. We're not that. We don't have a bet on it. Maybe we should put some money down on it. Okay, so Crosby BSW has returned. He's our young listener. The true Apple Insider Podcast fan has returned. Five stars. So they mention Tim Cook stepping down and Ternus taking over. Obviously, having built Vision Pro from the ground up, he knows what happened and why it didn't land. Is he going to finally fix it now that he's in charge of the entirety of the company? or does he quietly move on? And if the Vision Pro 2 flops, is it his fault or Cook's? So a couple of questions here. I think first off, Apple Vision Pro was made under his watch. It doesn't matter if he was the vice president or CEO. He had the say before it made it to Tim Cook. So I think not even though he's on a higher rung of the ladder, He's still the guy who made the decision. So it's fully on him. How that thing is or does or what it is as a product, and I don't think he's going to suddenly change it because he's CEO. He was the one who decided what it was going to be well before it made it to Tim Cook's desk, more or less. So I don't think that's going to change. Oh, there is a government precedent for this, and I mean all governments everywhere. If it's a failure, it was Cook's fault. If it's a success, it's Turner's. That's how it will play. Yeah. yes of course um what was this uh story about write two letters uh i'm gonna make a reference that uh only three people are gonna understand and i appear to be not one of them but i'm intrigued okay go for it yeah i'm i'm completely forgetting the whole anecdote but someone uh came into power a congress or president or something and they were told uh you know what do you do and it's like oh well you write two letters when you give to yourself uh after your first mistake you read it and then after your second mistake it's for your successor um okay so anyway it's a point aside yeah the vision pro 2 i don't think it's well okay so first off we have disagreed on whether or not apple vision pro is a flop uh commercial success is arguable right that's a different term is it commercially successful i would argue no but i don't think that was the intention was a flop depends on apple's success metrics i think it did what it needed to do so i don't consider it a flop um i don't think apple does either vision pro 2 flopping or not i think mostly depends on what it's targeted as and we won't know that until it's announced but whose fault is it it's still turnus i think you know he was the guy in charge of the development of the first one he will be higher on the rung but him and suruji and those guys under suruji they're making the calls and at the end of the day apple is a group of people and it the buck doesn't stop at one person um i think it's just one of those things where if it fails, everyone's going to blame Ternus or whatever, but I think it's more complicated than that. But I also don't think it's going to fail. I think this next iteration and the reason why it's taking so long is because Apple wants it to be more inexpensive and lighter and if they can check both of those boxes with the next release, even if it's $2,500 I think we'll have And we'll see the future of the product in this release. So, Wes, if someone else wants to give us a lovely review, how do they contact us? And if they don't, how do they contact you? If they want a bad review. So, of course, Apple Podcasts. If you leave reviews other places, we're not going to see them. We don't check those because there's too many. But, yes, Apple Podcasts, just go. Even if you don't use Apple Podcasts, if you're on Overcast, you can go to Apple Podcasts, leave a review and then just close it away again. Yes. Smash grab reviews. Okay. Yeah. So it's totally fine. We don't care if you, it's worth it for good reviews though, isn't it? Definitely. That's why you should do it for the, so you can email me, wessa appleinsider.com. You can also find me on blue sky, hilly.tech, mastodon, hilly tech, easy to get to. My blog of course is out there. You can reach out, tell us what you think of the show. I get a lot of good emails, get good questions from the emails. I've had a few purchasing conversations and things like that happen there. Always happy to hear from our listeners and what you think of the show. And if you have any pitches for topics or Apple Insider Plus, we're always happy to hear those. But William, back to you. Where can people stalk you on the internet? Well, actually, they can't. Nobody can. Not for the next week or so, because I'm going to be away next week. But other than that, you can, you know, I mean, it'll just take even longer than usual. If you try me on williamatappleinsider.com or there will be another YouTube 58 keys video if I get it done in time before I have to. There's been a new 58 keys every Wednesday night for six years unbroken. So there'll be one this time, but it's a bit tight this time. So if you email me, I won't notice because I'll be busy doing that. But then I'll be back next week. It will be you next week. But also, are you able to say who's going to be trying to step in to replace me as if such a thing is possible? It should be Mike Worthley unless someone randomly falls out of the sky. Okay. It'll be our boss, our editor, Mike Worthley. He's great. I might have to have a couple of bleeps at the ready. But it'll be fun. We'll see where the news takes us over the next week and what topics we cover. Yeah, I'll definitely be listening even though I'm not here. but that's next week as for this week thank you very much everybody for listening thank you too to our sponsors Masterclass and Claude by Anthropic if you didn't hear anything from Masterclass or Claude by Anthropic it's because you're a subscriber to Apple Insider Plus in which case hang on just one moment we'll be back with more if you're not if you did hear them but you'd like to not I mean nothing I felt like I'm insulting Masterclass and Claude if you would like to hear the extended Apple Insider Plus remember you can always join us through Apple Podcast subscriptions or through patreon and either way you do it it'd be a treat to have you there but in the meantime otherwise uh well i won't be back next week but we will the show will be with whatever's going on in this quiet world of apple where it's just the silly dead season in the middle of the year nothing going on i think things will crop up but speak to you sometime you