Welcome to Music Matters Podcast with Darrell Craig Harris, talking about all things music, the celebrities, artists, music business insiders, and more. Tim McGallagher, how are you doing today? Doing very well. Thank you. How are you? I'm very good. I'm Boston, born, living in New York City these days. Really impressive organization that you've set up. We're going to talk about AT International, which is a global group working with children and adolescents through music. It's really interesting. It's here in Tunisia, Morocco, Senegal, Southeast Asia, Gambia, Miramar. Tell me about that and also how you got started in music. Sure. Well, how I got started, I was trained as a classical pianist. My father was my first teacher and I grew up having different piano teachers and went to university for music and went to Juilliard. When I got out of Juilliard, I did not have a piano. So I was about 21, 22 years old. That's really when the 88 things all started. A mentor of mine suggested that I asked 88 people to each sponsor one key of the piano in order to buy a piano because I was a pianist without a piano. Not only did this fundraising effort succeed and I was able to actually buy a piano, but this was really the first time I started to see music much more as something that could build community and not only things that were revolving around just performance as an artist. So that one piano and this 88 key project became the seed for all of the other 88 initiatives that came after it. Tell me how you got started with AV International, how you put that together. Yeah, I mean, I think the first one of the paradigm shifts, I should say, is during what I like to call the 88 concert tour, which was a self-initiated, self-managed tour of all seven continents, around 350 concerts really over maybe a five-year period or so. But in that tour, I visited Afghanistan where music had actually been illegal under the Taliban. It's now again illegal, but during this window of time around 2010, 11, 12 period, I visited three times and I met a particular piano student named Elham and he had asked me for composition lessons and he composed this piece based on his name, spelling out his name in musical notes and he composed it in just one day. And I was so sort of touched by that I started incorporating his piece into all of my performances. And around this time, I had encouragements from friends, you know, oh, you really should make, you know, a full humanitarian mission out of this. And I was also traveling a lot to Tunisia during this time and they had just had the beginning of the Arab Spring Revolution and another friend there said, you know, it's nice that you come and you teach a few students and do a little concerts, but we really need a program that's going to touch thousands of students, not just five or 10. And so starting to think sort of at scale on a more societal level, that was really the trigger in Tunisia that led us to start the 88 International and thinking more, you know, sort of on an institutional level, you know, what is a structured program that could go into, in this case of Tunisia 88 into public schools, which implies then, you know, a relationship with the Ministry of Education of the country because that's how one could access into those schools. And then some kind of program that could allow for scale. And so we really focused in on student leadership, because I had observed through years of teaching there that basically there was just so much latent talent that just was not used, was not channeled. And this is of course very different than we just talked about, Juilliard. Our aim in the 88 International is not to necessarily produce conservatory level musicians were more as the gateway allowing, you know, many, many students to come into the musical experience and through their own clubs and groups and creating and then performing the music of their choice, you know, in the genre of music that kind of speaks to them or mixing genres or whatever the case may be. Yeah, and we kind of take it for granted in the West that, you know, we all have access to musical instruments and or most people do. And we kind of take it for granted that that's something that we can we can do easily. But a lot of countries, it's very challenging. Just even just basic survival, let alone music and arts, you know, training. And it's it's so important for arts and music, because it really expands, expands your your brain, expands your experiences. Has that has that been a really rewarding part of what you're doing, working with these young, young students that I'm sure are very eager to learn? Absolutely. I mean, this is, you know, one of the anecdotes I like to share. And this this actually happens quite a bit. You know, we have these concerts, the students perform their concerts and parents sometimes come up to me, often very moved. I'm talking about, you know, for example, their daughter, who used to be extremely shy, very withdrawn, unsure of herself. And then after joining one of our music clubs, 88 Music Club, you know, not only she starts singing and performing, but, you know, they're engaged in making their own declaring their own futures, you know, taking initiative in their lives. And parents are, you know, very, very emotional about this, because they feel like they can see their, their kids growing and and all blossoming. And that reminds me really about what the importance of what we're doing. It's really all about community and confidence and giving some roots to hope. If I'm obviously you're doing with the different cultures, is that something that's been challenging? Has it been rewarding at the same time? Talk a little bit about that. Absolutely. I mean, we have to build teams that include people, of course, from the countries in which we're working. And also, we have a lot of other international partners. So there's a lot of cross cultural things you might call cross cultural, all kinds of interesting challenges. I mean, I would say one of the main things, though, is right at the core of what we do, which is student centered programs, because we're putting the youth in charge of their own clubs, and the teachers move to not a sort of director role where they're imposing and directing everything that's happening, which is what they're used to in many of the countries in which we work, but rather a facilitation role. And again, in the US, this is, I would say fairly common teacher facilitated student led activities. But in the countries in which we're working, this is a huge paradigm shift for those education systems. And for the students, it's like a light bulb going off. It's like, wow, you mean I get to take leadership and participate in creating my own pathways. And for some teachers, it's also a light bulb moment realizing that just by guiding and mentoring and a little bit of light coaching, gentle mentorship, students potential can be realized. For some teachers, this is very challenging, though, because they've spent their careers seeing themselves as the source of all of the essence, really, of education. We sometimes use this metaphor, I like to call it the empty glass metaphor, you know, it's what is your conception of a student, a music student? Is it an empty glass to be filled by the wisdom of their superiors? Or what we prefer to the way we prefer to view students is more of an agricultural metaphor. The student is really more like a seed, and you plant the seed, and then your job as a teacher or a mentor or a musician is just to create the environment in which the seed can flourish. So it's more like cultivating a garden, rather than filling an empty glass to use that metaphor. Sure, like you said, that's I'm sure it's a very different system than what they're used to. But that's also great because it's because I'm a chance to see like, there are other possibilities, there are other pathways to learning, which is as important, maybe maybe we've come a little bit more interested in that in the States these days. But I don't know, it's still a challenge. Absolutely. So you've got to keep a busy solo performance career alive, along with doing this group. Tell me about that, because I know you guys, you actually have a contract coming up at Carnegie Hall on April 13th, and you're going to incorporate a little bit of what you're doing with the group, but talk about that. Exactly. Yeah, I've been able, I've been fortunate really to use my own solo performances, and I'm really, you know, while our clubs create music in many genres, I'm really a classical musician. I do work with a lot of composers and commissioning new works regularly as well. But a lot of the concerts I do are really in support of these programs and kind of consolidating partnerships and things like this. And coming up on April 13th at Zankel Hall at Carnegie Hall, this will be sort of a milestone performance for me, a solo, really a solo recital. And I have some partners who will join me on certain pieces of music during this concert. And it'll be an attempt to, you know, artistically, I guess, convey, I was trying to pick pieces of music that link to some of the countries in which we work as well. So it allows me to kind of make a link between the pieces of music and, you know, mention some of the work that we've been doing at the same time. But I also found some kind of canonical classical works, for example, the Brahms, Johannes Brahms, his third piano sonata, I'm planning to play that, but he composed that when he was 20 years old. And that's the same age group that we're working with, or it's, you know, in that sort of tranche of ages in which we work. So I think that's also quite interesting to see that there were actually canonical works, at least for Western classical music, written by, written by, you know, people you might refer to as kids. Well, what's it like for you when you travel to these countries and you see the progress these young musicians are making? And is it mainly just piano or is it just all different types of musical instruments? Our philosophy is really to start where the students are, meet them where they are, and then go from there. We find there's so much talent in every country. And most of it, you know, blends in with their whatever their culture may be. So in the Gambia, for example, it's a lot of beats and percussion and singing, always singing, everyone has an instrument, it's free. It can be cultivated and trained in Tunisia. There are there are instruments, people have guitars lying around, and there's some traditional instruments and a little bit of violin. And they use whatever they have to start creating their own music and to mixture between sort of traditional genres in those respective countries or whatever popular music. Of course, in most countries, they do know some a lot of Western popular music. In North Africa's Turkish music is known. And of course, there's new music being created in all of these countries as well. So the students are are receiving influences of all types. And this is one of the main questions that they have to contend with in their clubs, which is when they start to write and compose their own song, you know, what, what is it going to be? What genre is it going to be? You can imagine a group of 15 teenagers getting together. And maybe one of them is really likes traditional singing. And another one likes hip hop and somebody else, you know, they, they like rock guitar, and they're a Guns N' Roses fan or God knows what. And, and then maybe there's somebody who's like really interested in classical music, and they're all interested in music, but then they sit as like, well, how, what are we going to create? How do we, and they find all kinds of interesting creative solutions by mixing sometimes very consciously mixing genres. Sometimes dare I say kind of inventing their own, their own sound that just happens out of their own kind of incubation of the various ideas that they have. Of course, a big issue is also the subject of the song, the words, what are the topics we're going to deal with? Sometimes we guide them and give sort of broad themes in Morocco. Now we have a theme of our culture, you know, and just besting this investigating the idea, what is, what is culture? And there's sort of very obvious answers to that. But there's also more subtle answers. We've also had themes like our environment. Again, not just clean water or clean air, but you know, the environment is really anything at all that is around you. And it can be expanded to mental, emotional, psychological environments, all kinds of things. So students explore quite a range of topics as well. And that becomes, I would say, one of the main contact points that almost every student can relate to writing words, singing, and being part of a group. And then whatever instruments they have kind of can fill in around that. Yeah, that's really exciting. I can only imagine the energy you get when you go into the room and they're there, they're creating. And I think a lot of people, I mean, maybe you know this, you experienced this too. My first experience really with hearing the African music was Paul Simon's Graceland, when he released that album. And because it was so exciting, the energy was just amazing with the choir he used. I do naturally courted or do you have plans on recording anything with the group? Yeah, in fact, when we have an annual songwriting contest. And so on on the respective YouTube channels, Tunisia 88 has a YouTube channel, Morocco 88, Senegal 88, Gambia 88, they all have uploaded their own not only songs, but videos. So we have hundreds of kind of lost track, we have over 600 songs that have been created by those groups. Some of them are quite extraordinary. And all of this really is just a reminder that or the power that sounds like a cliche, but the power of music to provide connection. And when people come together to create, you know, music, they're also creating community at the same time. And that was also part of our motivation. Most these countries are landscapes where there's virtually no afterschool activities. So you can imagine adolescents, teenagers, they don't necessarily have a space in which they can be heard or channel their energies or create. And that's a big part of what we're trying to support. Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, one thing, again, a cliche, but music really erases borders. And it's really exciting to hear people differed backgrounds of different cultures and what they come up with, as you mentioned, too, and the Western music gets blended into the local music. And it's you end up with some really, really interesting combinations, which is exciting. Absolutely. What's some advice that you agree? Yeah, what's some advice that you would have for people that are interested? Well, not, I mean, obviously, interested in supporting you, but also interested in starting a nonprofit and going through that process. I know it's a big process. Well, there's sort of the technical, you know, having a just creating an entity, which is just like starting any business. And then you have to get the IRS approval for the tax, the nonprofit status. But I really think the most important thing is, is story, you know, what is the story that one, the larger story that one wants to tell. And this is something I'm constantly rethinking. So at the beginning, it was more, I would say it was more centered on myself, you know, how can I perform and give meaningful performances? And then I think my focus shifted a bit to the audience, you know, how can I make sure that wherever I go, especially because I'm a classical musician, and not everyone knows classical music, how can I make this music more accessible? How can I make myself more accessible to an audience? And then I sort of, you know, graduated myself to this societal level, like, what is the role that music could play in any given context, or country, or county, or town, or whatever, that could be meaningful. And in the, in these countries in Africa, a lot of it has to do with this, this idea of student leadership. And so we, you know, are telling the story, you know, we're allowing the students to define their own, their own destiny through the music that they're creating, and letting them also take leadership in their own communities. And then this becomes, you know, is in essence, a kind of story we're trying to tell, you know, look at the these voices that we're trying to raise the voices of you. So I would encourage anyone, you know, what is the impact that you believe you can make. And I think the communicating that, that's something when we shifted, when I shifted sort of into this sort of more institutional kind of thinking, it enabled us to use music in a way that could address maybe some of these larger issues, whether it's, you know, extremism, which is the case in Tunisia when we started, or even like local leadership, you know, Tunisia was on this path towards, well, right after the Tunisian Revolution, they were establishing a new democracy. And so local leadership is an extremely important subject. And it's like, well, how do we get the youth involved in this? What does it mean? And so for example, in our clubs, they all they always have to elect their own leaders, and the clubs have leaders, and we give them leadership training. And again, this is very not a common activity whatsoever in these places. So that's one of the things that makes the impact. Anyway, sort of a self referential answer. But I think what is the story one wants to tell is really important when you have a nonprofit, and that's what enables people to get to get on board and say, Oh, well, you know, here's a situation in this country, have you thought about that? And then you start getting ideas of all types. And if you can align what you're doing also with something that's kind of topical in the zeitgeist, as it were, you can sort of go with these larger currents, larger institutional currents and find support and find funds, which is of course, very important for any organization. Yeah, I think it's important to like, you have a great idea, you have a passion, but then that way they're the rubber meets the road as a word, figuring out the mechanics of it, figuring out how you can again, like how you mentioned, because you have some great partners. Actually, why don't you mention your partners that are working with you on this? I know you have some great financial partners and support. Sure. Well, the founding partners of of Tudija 88, which is sort of our flagship program, which is why I keep referring to it, where there was a Tunisian partner Tunisian NGO, and this is run by my friend, Roddy Medeb, who's the one who said, you know, we really need a program for thousands of students, you know, not just 10 or 20. So he really pushed me towards a more, a more, I would say, thinking more at scale, which also makes you think about systems and trainings and how to train others to do it. And then that becomes part of the part of the landscape of what you're doing. And then Ministry of Education is a critical partner in all of the countries, because again, they give access. And then we got some great support from other institutions, the European Investment Bank Institute, which is the philanthropic arm of literally the Bank of the European Union. And they had not, they've done some work in the arts as well. But this was their first program outside the EU. And then that became a real catalyzing force, which led us as well to the German government and also the US State Department, which have they've changed their orientations in the last year or so. But they've been also a partner through all of this, both the US and German governments. Yeah, because you're navigating, obviously, setting up the schools and that kind of thing, but you're also navigating the governments. And it's a very involved situation. Yeah. And we have, we do have private support as well. Some companies, some individuals will also support this. And as we move forward and expand, we are exploring all kinds of funding options. This is also kind of part of that storytelling element. Who are the people, who are the entities, whether they're governments or foundations or any potential donor that kind of share the vision and share those points of interest? Yeah, well, tell people how they can find you online and also the organizations. Obviously, you have a couple of different entities. Sure. Yeah. Well, there's my website, kimblegallagher.com. And then there's 88international.org. And those are sort of hubs. And then of course, we have our Instagram accounts, 88 International, Instagram, and Kimble Gallagher on Instagram. And we're also on Facebook and LinkedIn. So the major platforms. Yeah. I'm curious now that you mentioned the YouTube pages. I'm really curious to go talk about that. I love just watching students and young people get involved in music and finding their passion, giving it, you're giving them an avenue to really explore that, which I think is really amazing. Exciting. Yeah. And the fact that it's so international, and I'm sure it's going to keep growing, is really great. We need to get an album out there. Absolutely. No, that's great. We have it all on YouTube. We need to make an album. Maybe we'll do it by country or by theme. We might do it by song theme. Some of the YouTube channels, the Tunisie 88 one, they have playlists. So you can check directly go to, for example, the winners of some of the song contests in different years, and you'll see some of the extraordinary work that they've done. Awesome. Yeah. We'll have to check that out. I'm excited. It's really great. It's great to connect with you. I know you're very busy. Thank you so much. Now it's a pleasure, really. Yeah. Awesome. And people on your website too, you have your, I would have seen you have your crotch schedule. Yes. Yes. April 13th, that's Ankle Hall at Carnegie Hall. It's the next kind of big concert. Yeah. That's definitely a big concert. It's impressive. I mean, people don't understand how challenging it is these days, especially to make a living at earning a living in music, especially classical music. That's a different world from what, even for what I know, but I have great reverence for what you do and also the fact that you have made an effort to help children globally and young adults. I think it's very exciting. Thank you. That's very, that's very kind. Yeah. I think for all musicians, it's very daily. Everything that one needs to do is really happening on a daily basis, practicing the instrument, keeping all the important relationships warm and engaged so that when you do have a big concert, you know, people are ready to come, keeping the fans and audience, it's never ending. You have to wake up on a mission to change the world every day. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Kimball, for taking the time. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. And we will include your information and the group's information on the podcast description so people can locate you and check everything out and definitely encourage everybody to do that. The music is really exciting and your efforts are very appreciated. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Awesome. Have a great day, Kimball. You too. Take care. Thank you. Bye.
