Ep 89: Breaking Up Is Hard to Do… Even in the Lifestyle

Find us at vanilla swingers.com and you'll find Kat's only fans page there too. You wish. Hey Kat. Yeah Leo. I'm going to record one of those silly disclaimers that you put at the beginning of the podcast. Real advisory sticker. Let's go because this is going to be explicit. Oh yeah we're going to talk about lots of sex. Lots of bad language. We might even have sex on the podcast. We might have. Listening to the noise of our love making. There might be nudity. But you can't see it on the podcast. Doesn't matter. You can hear it. You can hear the nudity. We might corrupt you if you're under the age of 18. That's the disclaimer. Don't listen. We're not professional. What else? And yeah we're not professionals. We know nothing. Absolutely nothing. And if you want to try to sue us? Well we don't have any money either. Because this is bite-size and commercial free. We're not trying to make any money. It's fun. So if you like it then tune in and listen. Subscribe. Yeah. Word. It's Leo. It's very very sad Leo. And this is kitty cat. This is going to be really different than our usual because this is going to be very raw, very vulnerable and probably not very funny. I'm surprised that we're going to do this podcast right now. This would have been easy to let this just slip beneath the waves as one of our biggest L's that we've ever taken in the lifestyle. But why not share it with you because you are following our journey and we're really answering the question today that some people say you don't break up with people in the lifestyle. Well that's a damn lie. That's a damn lie because we just got broken up with. We've had some of our friends reach out and they've gone through that experience before and I'm here to tell you. It sucks donkey balls. It hurts. It hurts and we're going through like the seven stages of grief and we know exactly how so many of you are feeling. Like if you're dating a couple and then see them four or five times and then all of a sudden they don't want to see you anymore, it feels like you're getting broken up with. I'm not usually one who spends a lot of time looking back. The woulda coulda shouldas? We've had moments in our lives that we've had setbacks, failures and we just take our L and then we move on quickly. And I am one of the woulda coulda shoulda kind of people. That is kind of my personality. But Leo's real good at saying don't look back at that. Just move forward. Keep on looking straight ahead. So this one has actually taken me by surprise. I am really surprised that it's affected me in the way it has. But the reason for that is that when this one was good, it was magical. It was absolutely next level magical. You remember we went to Vegas with little baddie bunny. We're talking about a little baddie bunny here. We are. That's who broke up with us. It was really next level. I think she said it was one of the best weekends she's ever had of her life and we felt very much the same way. It was absolute just pure bliss. And only a small part of it was actually the bedroom chemistry which was... Oh my God! The three of us entangled was something to behold. It was really amazing. Magical is really the only word that I think aptly describes what went on in Vegas. We felt like we were on a magic carpet ride. It was just next level magic. It was so good that as soon as we got back, all we could think of is planned the next time to get together. And not only that, but we planned two times ahead. We'll never do that again because you just don't know from one to the next. We went from the highest of highs in Vegas and then six weeks later, we ended up the absolute lowest of lows. But the moment we met her in Vegas and spent three days together, there is a newness which is really what swingers thrive on, that new, that strange. It's what new relationship energy is built on. Well the newness blurs all the rough edges. I remember her telling us after the first night she woke up in the middle of the night and she looked over and she said, I can't believe I'm in bed with Kat and Leo. Oh. And it was just, I know you don't like me saying that because we had such amazing moments and they're just gone. It was so good. It was so epic. And to be at the highest of highs, I think we probably should have realized that we only had one way to go. And he is telling me that I'm being really patient and really vulnerable. I appreciate you. First of all, I appreciate you on many different levels. The first thing is, is that you are being really patient with me. The other thing is, is that it's just crazy that we're a couple going through this. The seven stages of grief over here and you're okay with that. But the reason why is I've gone through the seven stages of grief already with various guys. I mean, I go through this all the frickin' time. Like I had Florida boy. He was one of my sexters. We talked about meeting in real life. Things were going well. And all of a sudden one day, he deleted his entire telegram profile. Bam. That's like being a broken up with, but in the ghosting manner. Well, see that goes to the other point, which is I feel like that kid in dodgeball and I turned my head and I just got hit right in the face. Because the rest of us have been through this, which goes to the point that I'm sorry that you've been going through this. Because I've had moments where like another example. I mean, there's so many examples for me. It's ridiculous. But I had a couple of big ones. You know, one was a guy named CrossFit. We saw him twice. We had plans for a third. He's on Valentine's Day. And then just absolute ghosted me. Absolute crickets. I think I cried over that one. And in the moment, I felt like I can't believe I'm crying over someone. A, I barely know. B, I'm married. And so I understand where you're coming from. I now expect to be hurt. And so I don't know. You have been operating like that for quite a while. There's no question about it. I have much more armor than you do. I don't think I've had any armor up to this point. I'm like a snail and you're like a full on slug. And the slug has no armor. I'm definitely a slug. And you are just sliding along, squeezing along your sludge. I am the slug in this situation because I take responsibility for the breakup. It was my fault. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. It's always me. That's the problem. So this is kind of fun that he gets to be the problem. It's never you. I know. I'm always the one that says, hi, it's me. I'm the problem. It's me. I say that all the time. You know, you go back and you try to figure out where things went sideways. When they were so good, they were just otherworldly. And so we had, I'll just kind of give a little bit of a nutshell. We had a weekend in Los Angeles and there was about a midway point. We call it the before and the after. It just felt off. It felt like something was broken after. I think at the time I didn't realize what it was. Today I sit here and it's so obvious. You know, you go back and you forensically retrace your steps. You go to everything. You're like, OK, when we ate here, when we went here, how are things? And then you kind of pinpoint, oh my God, that's where it happened. And in part, you were bullshitting as you want to do when there's awkward silence or just silence in general. You tend to tell stories and just talk. I say the first thing that pops into my mind. And they're not always the best things to say, especially depending on the company. We had just gotten back from the club. We had a fun night and I think we were just sitting around having a conversation, storytelling and in my storytelling, I was making some observations. At the time, I didn't think much of it, but I realized that what I was saying was probably going against something that was near and dear to her heart. You sounded probably very cringe. I sounded completely cringe in hindsight. I realize that now. But you know, we said before that one of these days we're going to get canceled. I'm going to be the one to get us canceled. But we've always laughed. We can't get canceled because like we're not on a network. Like nobody's paying us to do this. So who can cancel us? Right. But we have said that at some point, somebody's going to listen to the podcast who's actually special to us in our lives and they're going to know right out of there. And so the podcast we knew, you said this like literally like two weeks ago. One of these days, the podcast is going to be a double edged sword. And while it can bring us great joy, it's going to bring us great misery, loss, something because of something that we've said. I'm unfiltered. There's no question about it. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. But that's what I love about you. I'm an acquired taste. You are an acquired taste. It's a little bitter beer face. I think I've always counted on the idea that if you still listen to us, if by now we haven't gotten on your ever loving last nerve, then we're probably friends in real life. We just haven't met yet. And so we met her via the pod. But this is one of those instances where I look back now and I realize it wasn't just sounding cringe. It wasn't just sounding unfiltered. I think that she felt like maybe there was something in my heart that went against who she was in her heart. I feel like my heart's in the right place. Your heart's always in the right place. It's been a long time since I actually made changes to myself. And I guess I always feel like I'm evolving, but this is the first time that I realized that maybe I've got some flaws that I need to work on. And maybe it took me losing something, losing someone that I really liked a lot for me to take a look at myself and realize that I probably need to do better. You know, that's really powerful, especially as your wife thinking somebody you don't know that well has that kind of power to make you see yourself from the outside in and decide, you know, I could kind of do this or that better. That's that's a really powerful sentiment. Well, you always make me a better man. There's no question about it, but you also I accept you for me. I do like you for you. Most of the unicorns that we play with do. How's that with the single gals that we play with? We become friends. And if anything, things might fade. We've never had one that we've broken up with. They've broken up with us. We're still friends with them all. So this is a real new dimension for us, for you, really. The only experiences that we've had are relationships that fade away, but not burnout. This is the first one that's ever burned out. But you know, when you fumble this badly, it's natural that you go back, try to pinpoint where things went sideways. And I'm not sure that she realizes that I have a pretty good idea where I went wrong, and it may not be the only reason. There may be others. I don't know. That's what we've pinpointed because there was kind of a before and after during the trip. We had a good, friendly time the entire time, but there was a half of it where it still felt like it was on. And then there was the other half, the last half, where it just felt a little bit broken. But I think it goes to a sentiment, for me at least, that I think it's much better to have experienced this kind of connection and to lose that than to never have experienced that at all. Well, you know, they say in life, it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. And so you can kind of use this in this situation that it's great to have felt lots of emotions and then lost it, then never have had those feelings to begin with. For me, I have no regrets, not for a second. And I'll only remember her and the time we spent fondly. And while, yes, it did felt strained and a little bit broken toward the end. We liked her so very much. I get it. The breakup was my fault. I'm an idiot. I'm the one that has to make the changes. Why don't you tell everybody how we got broken up with? You tell them. I don't want to tell them, but I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to put it out there anyway. Let people know this is our lowest moment. This is my lowest moment in the lifestyle, bar none. And he said at first, we're going to sweep this under the rug. We're not going to tell anybody about it. And here we are potting about it because we feel like we should be honest with you because I'm sure in your lifestyle journey, you're going to get broken up with. It would be so much easier to let this slip beneath the waves. I don't know. Do you feel like it's a failure? Do you feel like it's an embarrassment that you fumbled the ball at the one you are? Definitely a hundred percent. There's so much second guessing. What if we'd done this differently? What if we'd done that differently? But the bottom line is we got broken up with and this is how it happened. Our last day in LA, we spent just really friendly. Everything was going fine, but the spark was kind of gone. We knew that it was strained, but we had to spend the entire day because her flight was very late that night. So we were in Venice Beach, Santa Monica Pier. We went to Muscle Beach. All that was fun. We talked about it in some stolen moments amongst ourselves. Yeah. Leo and I, anytime she'd go to the bathroom or go, you know, whatever, we'd be, OK, how are you feeling? That the energy, the vibration, it started to change. And we knew there was a before we knew there was an after. And that last day was so strained and difficult. We knew Europe was on the horizon prior to the time. All three of us, all we could talk about was, oh, my God, wait until we go to Europe. I think she said, I can't believe that I'm going to Europe with you guys. And that was in about three weeks from now. Ellie seemed like a stopover. Yeah, it almost seemed like a formality to get to Europe. That was going to be the most epic trip. It's hard not to look back and think, what if? What if I just shut your mouth, said the right things? It's true. But I look back and I feel like maybe the newness had worn off a little bit already because it is, it's like magic when you're like, I've never met you. This is also brand new. I like to think it's going to be magical again. And so I'm just going to live in Fantasyland. And so back to Venice Beach, we send her on her way. She gets on her flight and Leo and I are talking and saying, I don't think we can go to Europe like this. This is just feels off. Well, even prior to her flying back to Midwest, we said that something's changed. I'm not sure if we can go forward with Europe, but at times we'd be walking down the street and I'd be walking behind you guys and I would look at her and I'd say, I don't want to let her go yet. So we weren't ready to do any kind of breaking up, but we did feel like before Europe, we're going to have to have a conversation. How are you feeling? Just to open up a dialogue and find out where's everybody's headspace at and to also find out, can it be fixed or is it past the point of no return? Irrevocably broken. And so that's kind of where we left off. And again, we're not speaking this in the moment because Leo and I, we try to bring happy to people. And so there was no way we were going to bring this up on her last day in LA. We were going to make it a fun day. We're going to do lots of fun things. And we had a very fun, friendly day. But when we got back, we were talking in earnest and we said, I think we've got to broach it, find out where do we stand? I don't think that we can do Europe if it's going to be like it was in the latter part of the LA trip. But honestly, I'm not sure that we would have had the backbone to cancel the trip. We wouldn't have. If we'd had the conversation and she had said, no, I think it'll be okay. I hear is what's going on. I think we can get back to the way we were. There's no question that we would have veered off at the last second. We would have just said, fuck it, let's do it. YOLO. But leading up to that, I think we said there's probably about a 51% chance that we're not going to end up going to Europe. And then she made the decision for us. Two days later, it was the first text back. She said all the things that needed to be said, which by the way is fully to her credit. Good on her because we were being cowards about just saying the thing. And in a way, it did feel a little like a Stuart Scott moment because sometimes you don't always get what you want. Sometimes you get what you need. We needed somebody else to do the hard work and say what needed to be said. And it wasn't in this kind of, will we, won't we kind of way, which is, I think what we would have done, it would have been a very drag your feet. It was just very to the point. I don't think we're as compatible as I originally thought we were. I think LA should be our last trip together and I wish you all the best. But again, that was Stuart Scott doing what needed to be done. It wasn't what we wanted, but it was probably what we needed. You say that you have armor already built up. I don't think I have armor in this way. You don't have any armor. Great. That's great. Yeah, but now you're going to go find yourself a snail shell. It's going to be a little brittle at first. It's going to take some time. You need some practice at getting broken up with as I have. And then you're going to be kind of like a boss bitch, like me and like this doesn't bother me. You've never been broken up with, though. Technically speaking, what you're referring to is more ghosting. Yeah, because my guys are cowards and don't have the balls that she had to just say the thing and say, I don't think this is going to work. I mean, this is how couples break up with each other, which really goes back to her doing what she did. It was such a brave thing to do because ghosting would have been twice as devastating. And ghosting would have been the easy thing to do. Yeah. So I've never been broken up with, but I've had ghosting. So that feels like I'm being broken up with. I guess I've never been the kind of person to spend a lot of time looking backwards. If I have some kind of failure of which I've had many in our lives, in my life, before we met, but not necessarily in the lifestyle. I'll pick myself up. I'll dust myself off and I'll just keep keeping on. You don't exactly lead a charmed life. You just know how to take failure and turn it into some kind of success and turn it around. Well, you know, when we were on Santa Monica Pier, which I highly recommend, we had a lot of fun there. You went to Zoltar, the fortune teller, and you got your fortune. You know, one of those things where he's like a sultan and he's got his crystal ball. So I'm like, I'm going to go get my fortune. So he spit out the fortune and it said something effectively about fear of failure and that through failure, it can be the catalyst. And when I read that in the moment, we're with her, right? I remember thinking maybe the failure we're going through right now is that the relationship is a bit strained, but we're going to work through it. And Zoltar is telling us that on the other side is Europe and everything's going to be OK. Until you get a dodgeball right in your face. I think it was kind of right in your nose. I frankly think I deserve it. It goes back to that thing where you'd say, is it better to have experienced this kind of connection, but then experience this kind of loss? I wouldn't have traded it for anything. And we would have never have traded LA because Vegas it ended on such a high. We would have been ridiculous to not have wanted to recapture that again. So there's nothing we could have done differently. I still like her. I really adore her as well. I'm OK that if we never speak again, I just need to take my L. My well deserved L. And we'll always hold all of the memories that we made really fondly. They're not going to be like, oh, I don't want to remember these things. We're going to look back at the photos we took and the memorabilia we have. And after we get over this period of mourning and loss, we're going to look back really fondly and like that was some good times. There were some of the best times that you've had in the lifestyle. No question. And so we would never change it for the world. But were we expecting this? We thought we'd be going to Europe in three weeks. We're still going to Europe. Leo and I, it's going to be like an anniversary trip for us. I'm not ready to see some of our other unicorn friends just yet, because I don't think it would be fair to them that I'm in this sort of state. Talking about our Swinger Guardian Angel, Stuart Scott, we were about to see flight attendant less than 48 hours after we got back from LA. She was going to have another layover nearby. We made these plans a while ago. Her flight got canceled, changed earlier in the day we found out. But we would have been on the road to go see her at the moment. We were getting broken up with. That was no small favor by Stuart Scott. And when she first canceled her flight, we were like, man, that kind of sucks. We were looking forward to seeing her in hindsight. Sometimes you get what you need, not what you want. Then we talked about, oh, my God, can you believe it? If we would have been going up there, I mean, what kind of company would we have been? So if you ever thought Leo was a prickly pear, I'm dealing with the prickliest of pears all week. Well, first of all, I appreciate you so, so much. You're even prickly on the pod. You think I'm prickly right now? Yeah, you're really prickly. But, you know, you handle me in my lows. And like I said, I just kind of operate with my armor. I operate in a state of not getting very affected. Well, part of the thing is, is that she blew past most of my defenses. I let her in so, so fast. Deeply. And one of the things that we were going to say before we got that DM from her was that in advance of that Europe trip, maybe we've just moved things a little bit too fast. And maybe we should slow things down to get to know each other a little bit better. I think that that's probably one of the lessons that I've learned is that when you meet people, take the time to get to know them first. I just blew past all the stop signs because it really was a very special magical weekend in Vegas. It was just if you guys could have been a part of it like a fly on the wall, you would understand what we're saying. I don't think that she would disagree with what I'm saying about how great the weekend was that, of course, we thought LA would be the same. Even all the texting we did leading up to it, I can't wait to be reunited again. It was just going to be magical. It was pretty fucking great. And I hope that she'll remember the LA one positively, even though it went south because we tried to keep things fun. We tried to keep things lighthearted because that's who we are. We're just going to try to keep things light. And that's what we tried to do. I also like that this situation has made you even more appreciative and empathetic to what I've been going through, because when you look at my side of the aisle, right, the MFM aisle, it is littered with such debris. There's not a single good one there right now. Yeah, I was excited that Surfer Boy slid back into my DM. Have I heard from him again? No. Am I ever going to see Malibu Richie Rich? No. Magic Mike, I got a booty call at 3 30 in the morning. That's like my swan song. Well, I just want to say that I am sorry to her and I'm also sorry to you that you had to go through what you have to go through, because this has made me more empathetic to her and it's also made me more empathetic to you because to think that you have to go through what you do and you sort of do this suffering in silence. I try not to complain too much. I really try to stay in a pretty positive state, but there are many, many moments where I'm ready to quit and tell you, I don't want to do this anymore. This is really, really difficult. Well, we always said that one of the things that's going to surprise newbie couples the most is that in the lifestyle, in your journey, you will have just as many lows as you do highs. And sometimes that can make it feel like is the juice worth the squeeze? And we get it from our couple friends, our single female friends where they're going through a lull, they're going through a slump. Some of them come to us crying because so and so single male, he's kind of crass and awful. We see it and it happens to us all. I understand you better now and it's not easy. It's hard. And so the best thing to do is you have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off. We're of the mind that the best way to get over someone is to get under someone else. And so we're thinking maybe we should get back out on the road. But it's hard because right now I don't want to get under anybody else. I just have to spend a couple of days with it and sit with it. I mean, you got under me. Well, yeah, that's true. You like me. Yeah, I always like you. I'm all right. You wrote me a note. I all right. And you said, I love you. And if you and I were on a deserted island, I would be the happiest girl. And that's all I need is you. And I feel the same way. It's in these times when it's the hardest, you do have to look to each other and lean on each other. I can't imagine how difficult it is for some of the singles in our life. Yeah, what they have to go through that they have to go through this alone. Because at the end of the day, I'm going to Europe with you. And I'm really excited about the possibilities. We're going to make it great because all I need is you. So now let's give a little bit of advice as to how to break up with someone or how to handle getting broken up with. I think I feel like we always want to be as gentle as possible. Well, I always advise some form of ghosting or slower response times because I feel like that's the gentler way to go. What she did, it was the most brave thing that she could have done. But it deserves a lot of credit. What had to be done. Absolutely. It was what we needed after you've been together for some time. You forget what rejection is like. Well, I think that when you get in a relationship, you really do feel like you've caught the last helicopter of the jam. Oh, my God, you said that is so long. You do because you run, not walk away from the dating dumpster fire. It does. It feels like you are taking a match like in one of those movies and you throw it and the whole thing behind you just blows up. And you're like, that was my dating dumpster fire. I'm not used to feeling like this. You don't like it. I don't like it. But at the same time, I wouldn't have changed anything in the moment. And so the rejection is something that you're going to have to appreciate and embrace because maybe it'll make you a better person. It'll make you a stronger person. That's for sure. And I think that eventually you do get armor. I got lots of armor. You do. And it's really remarkable to watch you work. I have a new appreciation for the way you operate through the lifestyle. It is brutal at times. And it didn't start like this. I remember one of our first MFMs we've talked about, his name was Brad. When the repeat didn't materialize, even after he texted some, I was in such NRE over him. We started the pod because of that NRE. I was so gutted. I felt like I'd been broken up with my boyfriend. When you were gutted, I remember at the time telling you to just feel how you need to feel, which is weird coming from your husband. Well, for a couple that's new to the lifestyle, it is going to feel jarring to watch your significant other. It can be tough to watch early on. But when you get to a certain point in your lifestyle journey, it will not be. You will give your partner as much space, as much grace as they need. I'm trying to help you guys in how to break up with someone or how to handle being broken up with. And I think what she has taught us is you should probably just be honest. Well, interestingly enough, as hard as it may be, it didn't totally come as a surprise. And I think that it just means that she is a strong woman. We could probably learn a thing or two. We probably will definitely take away from this and learn a lot of things. I think we said there's probably a list of about 25 things. But yeah, so people are going to break up with you. Some are going to tell you the truth. I just don't feel a connection anymore. I'd like to move on. And you need to just put on your big girl panties and take it like an adult. That's so much easier said than done, though, because as human beings, you have emotions, you have feelings. I think it's OK to feel those feelings. Take some time. And, you know, there's a lot of people in the lifestyle that say, we only want to do this without feelings. And I guess that you would avoid issues like this. In my opinion, that means that you're not having repeats. Because as soon as you see a couple or a single a second time, you have feelings. That's a good point. If you're seeing a repeat, how can you not have some feelings enter the picture? We were just doing an episode about feelings. And I still stand by that episode today. You still want to have feelings for people. I do. It actually makes you feel alive. I think you have to embrace the spark as well as the loss. All things will come to an end. Eventually, there is a season for everything. We just weren't ready for it to be over. No, definitely not. Even though we saw the writing on the wall and we realized that something was broken, I still think we weren't ready to give it up. And so you can be honest with your couple. Well, you know, that goes to something else that while we were almost of the similar mind when she reached out to us, it still took us a little bit by surprise. I think we didn't quite convey to her our feelings about her. Maybe she'll listen to the pod. Maybe she won't. But we care very deeply about her and always will and really do wish her nothing but the best. We liked her a lot. We still like her a lot, even if it's in just a friend capacity. When it was good, it was fucking magical. And it was such a high that you didn't want to get off that ride. And I know that that's something that we will not soon forget. But, you know, in life, at every point of failure, when you think you have something really good, it could be something as simple as a car that you want to buy. And then somebody else comes along, they swoop in, buy it out from under you. You feel like there's never going to be another one like it. For that job that you've interviewed for, if you don't get it, you're like, there's never going to be such a good job. But you know what's waiting on the horizon for you or that person that you think there's never going to be another one that comes along like that. There is never going to be another me. Hmm. Well, that's true. I know, right? But in life, what you find is it's not long before you do find another. There's a new car. There's a new job. There's a new person. You just don't give up hope and you kind of stay positive and optimistic. And then your attention turns and you forget all about how fixated you were on that bright, shiny object, someone that you thought there would never be another one like him. For me in life, every time that I've had a failure, you're really good at failing. But it triggers something inside of me. It makes me want to redouble my efforts. I know you've been really complacent lately. I have been complacent. You've been downright lazy. Yeah, I've been fixated. And, you know, we have some new things in mind for the pod. We have all sorts of things in mind. And honestly, I think this has been a bit of a catalyst for you to get up off your lazy butt. I totally agree. And get some shit done. It's like you just slapped me. Oh, yeah. You slapped my ass last night. What was that all about? I did slap your ass. Whenever I don't like to be flogged, OK? No, you don't. Well, you were making video for someone else. So I might have slapped your ass with that person in mind. That's the timber leg in the house. But it definitely stirs something deep inside of me. Failure for me is the best thing that could ever happen to me. It's like a catalyst for change. It's a catalyst for doing more. You want to prove the world wrong. You want to go out there and you want to live your best life. So just remember that when you're getting broken up with or if you're on the other end and you're breaking up with someone, you're going to find another couple. They're going to find another couple and it might even be better. But regardless, you're going to enjoy and embrace the memories that you had of that experience, that chapter in your life. Hopefully it wakes up that sleeping giant that lays dormant inside of you. Is that what I sound like? Yeah. And then you look back and you realize what could you have done differently? How can you stand to improve because not the one of the shithole. Approve. No, definitely not what a good a show. Just more. What could I do better? So then you don't make the same mistakes. That's what failure is about. It's about looking back at whatever it is you were trying to accomplish and not making the same mistakes. So you move forward in a more successful light, in a more positive light. I think it's okay. And I think it's important to be able to sit with it. Take a few days. And so we're taking a few days. We are processing, but I know that we're going to emerge from this out of a cocoon that are faster, stronger. We're going to be the kind of pillar that is going to emerge from the chrysalis and become a beautiful butterfly. And hopefully we won't fuck it up the next time that we have something really good. And if we do, we'll put it on a pod and we'll tell you all about all our losses because we get L's. We are feeling that this is going to be one of our most listened to episodes. We are in the trenches like you guys. We are not playing with an entourage of friends. We are living and breathing the lifestyle. What you mean is we put ourselves out there every time. It is true. We could close our circle and just play with a limited number of people. We could play in like a very small house party with like seven couples. Oh, look, we're all, you know, been vetted and we're going to hang out together, but we don't do that. We put ourselves back out there on the road the same way as you guys do. And so we're experiencing the highs and lows that come with that. And maybe it makes us a little more relatable. I think people will enjoy getting to see what it looks like when the chair leg gets kicked out from under us. Under you. Yeah, under me. Come on. They don't want the chair leg to be kicked out from under me. Maybe I kicked the chair leg out myself, but you know what I mean. Whatever. It was kicked out for sure. What's remarkable is that we're having all of these feelings and this experience inside of a marriage, the sanctity of our couple, them, our marriage of our two having to hold till death do us part. That's crazy. I know, right? And you know what? The feelings that swirl around something like this, you could look at your partner and think, I'm going to give you side-eyed, but instead you just give me space. You just give me grace and time to get past it. You know, as newbies, it feels like something you couldn't believe. And if you were vanilla, there is no way they would understand something like this. Say, what are you doing? But if you're a newbie, you usually start in that one night stand mentality. Yeah, it definitely takes having repeats. If you don't have repeats, you don't have feelings, then you won't have feelings. And then you're not going to have loss and you're not going to have these feelings. But I still adhere to it is a fantastic thing to aspire to. Repeats are the best. A couple of years down the road, having feelings, even the feelings of loss. It means that you had the feelings to begin with. I would never trade it for anything. It just makes you feel alive, vibrate like a tuning fork in life. You feel very alive. But if you tried to explain something like this to vanilla people, it would absolutely blow their mind. They would have no comprehension how you could possibly do something inside of your marriage like this. And it's OK. It will be OK. Nothing really sticks for that long. We said it before that there's a season for everything. And especially when you're a couple of years down the road, you're a little bit more desensitized. You definitely have got radical honesty down to a T. These things don't break you as a couple. They make you tighter. They make you stronger. I see you vulnerable. I see you having these feelings of vulnerability and I embrace it and it helps me love you even more. I think in my life, I've always been a proponent of lifting people up, especially the underdogs, the people who may not have a voice. That's always where my heart has been is with those people. Is that where you went south over the weekend? You forgot kind of your roots and lifting up the underdog. I think that's probably a good characterization and my words probably didn't express that. So where do we go from here? I think it's worth saying some of the things that we've learned from this experience. Now, I know you have some things in mind, but would you mind if I were to share some of the things that I've learned since I feel like this has been something that has hit me squarely between the eyes? I don't have anything in mind. So you don't have anything in mind. The floor is all yours. I think the first thing is that you can't be all things to all people, even if that means that you lose one of the best things in your lifestyle journey. You can't be who you're not. No regrets. Embrace the spark as well as the loss. Fair enough. You know, the second thing is just because the first time was earth shattering and Lord knows it was, it doesn't mean it'll always be that way. The new has a way of making things sparkle in a way that can be hard to replicate. And you guys know that because your first NRE moment, you are chasing that dragon because you're always looking for that high again and it's nebulous to find. It doesn't mean you can't find that NRE again. We found it, but it doesn't last as long or it's harder to attain. It is what it is. And sometimes that means you wish you could freeze it in time in amber, but I don't know if we're wired that way as humans. We could have frozen it in time in amber, but then we would have never put forth all these other trips. And then we would have always thought, what if you're right, you always are going to live with the what ifs. I don't think we're wired in such a way that we can just stand down. If it was so good, imagine how good it'll be on a second and a third. Just like how I really enjoyed my last MFM, which was Magic Mike. And then I had to go to Vegas to be confronted with the notion that it wasn't going to happen again. So it has to be kind of preserved in amber. Get to know people or maybe not. Maybe if you want to be a one night stand couple. But if you want to be a friends with benefits couple, you should get to know them, take the time and really get to know somebody's personality and what makes them tick beyond just surfacan stuff. Yeah, I don't want to be a one night stand couple. And if that means I experience disappointment and loss, then so be it. It's worth it for me. Maybe don't allow feelings too fast and build up some armor because you're going to need it. I appreciate you so much more, I think, from this experience. I've already been through this a million times. Come on, get yourself together. Yeah, I'm in the suck ass chair. Yeah, you are suck ass. And I'm sucking ass right now. Yeah, you are not in a good way. I think you got to enjoy the moment more. Sometimes I spend way too much time looking ahead to the next thing. Like if it was great once, just think how great it'll be. Five times. Three more times. It is true. I do think, do I live more in the moment? I think I live in the moment because I know I'm never going to probably get a repeat. So I think I enjoy my moments more. I enjoy a sexting moment and I'm like, maybe that's all I'm going to get. I think I live more in the moment. Yeah, I definitely need to appreciate more what's in front of me because it could be gone tomorrow. And I think I'll do a lot better about that going forward. I think an important one is love the ones that love you back. Sometimes we spend too much time looking ahead. Sometimes we spend too much time searching for that MGK catfish. That one's not going to love you back, but which ones are going to love you back? And there's something beautiful about that. Which is why you should probably kiss that guy or girl next to you and let them know how special they are. Because for you, you're the most special to me because you're my ride or done. And this shit is hard enough as it is. I can't imagine doing it without you. That's very sweet of you. I appreciate it. I think we all got to realize that most people are here for a good time and not a long time. So you've got to enjoy it for what it is. And don't get frustrated when things end or things go their natural course because they aren't going to last forever. No matter how much you want them to, they're not meant to last forever. This is not long term relationship material. Well, we've always said that we're way more monogamish than we should be doing this stuff. We get a little fixated for sure. But I do see signs this year that we're moving more towards E&M. Saying that we're moving toward E&M makes it sound like we're going toward like an open marriage and solo play. But that's not what you mean at all. No, not at all. You just mean unethically non-monogamous, meaning just we want to have fun because there's only so much time in a day outside of our vanilla life. We only have so much time for this spicy world. We don't live it and breathe it 24 seven. We have limited time. And a lot of it's because of the podcast. I don't think we ever thought that when we set up to do this, it would ever turn into what it has. And that it would bring a lot of people into our lives that would never have been in our lives. We didn't start it with that in mind. It has grown into that and we embrace it. It's been a lot of fun. It's really taken on a life of its own. I'm here for it. And I think it's probably going to get a lot crazier from here. I can take it. You can take it all. I can't take it all. Can't I? Hmm. Yum. In the end, I don't view this as an end. I really view this as just the beginning. That's really beautifully said. I got a crazy question for you. Hit me. Hit me. Yeah, that one. Now we're sitting here and we've got an extra ticket to Europe. Amsterdam and Paris in the house. What would you do if somehow she came back into our life and she said, let's try to make it work. Even as friends, would you do it? I probably would say yes. I like to say yes. Yeah, we probably would. You just never know what's going to happen and it's a fun energy. Even at the end, it was super friendly. Why not? Well, you know, I think it's just a testament that we liked her that much. And we spend time with people we like. Well, I think the ultimate thing is we hate to think that she went away unhappy in any kind of way. Because we tried really hard to make it a fun weekend. And at the end of the day, we tried to be very friendly and it was a comfortable feeling. But, you know, when you get the breakup message, you're like, damn, she unhappy, like really did things go so sour that she's got a bad bitter taste in her mouth. Yeah, it stings a lot. And we don't like that. That really want to make people have it. That really hurt me when we got the breakup message. Because of course, I read all the texts. I read it out loud. It kind of hurt my heart a little. Which I think dovetails into communicate or maybe I should communicate less. Because I talk too damn much. And that's what's got me in the trouble in the first place. Well, it's true because the things you're saying while you could say you're chalking it up to, we're getting to know each other better and she's getting to know you better by you talking so much. But what you were saying isn't really who you are. So maybe communicate more, but I should say less. You should shut up. I tried to communicate in this situation, but it wasn't enough. And you did try to have a conversation after the fact, knowing that I think things with a little south. And you did try to have a conversation. So, you know, last night, I know I said some things and you did try. We didn't just ignore everything. You did try to put a bandaid on it. But it was just too little, too late. Well, I'm the kind of person that I had been cast. You can say just about anything to me and I'll actually sit and reflect on it. I could be persuaded to change my mind with a reason point of view, even if it runs completely counter to my own. You're not easily offended. And we usually are really good at second chances, sometimes third chances. Unless they say like, oh, I want to put my hand on your throat and choke you, then maybe you won't give them a second chance. But maybe you will. I don't know. It depends if they're nice. Otherwise, they talk about the silver bag gorilla guys. Just any other guys really. A lot of the guys like to say that. We always like a softer energy in the bedroom when it comes to the guys. Yeah. I think we've determined that over the two years, that that's what we gravitate towards more than anything else. I love more than anything that you know how I feel now. And once you get over these seven stages of grief, you're going to be so much more empathetic to me and you're going to come back to you because the other day I'm still in the same boat. I'm still in this miasma of just crud. I like that word. It's such a great word. And I'm in no better shape than you, but I can't dwell on it because I'm helping you. I'm helping you feel better, right? Well, I think it goes to a point where you need to allow your partner some grace to go through those seven stages of grief. On day one, this felt like a colossal oof three days in and I'm starting to pick myself back up off the floor. And when the time comes and the shoe is on the other foot with you, I'll be sure to return the favor and give you as much time as you need to feel however you need to feel. I think five years from now, it's a good reminder to people that this won't even be a blip on your radar. You know what, Leo and I are going to Europe and we're actually going to be an amazing trip and we are so excited. Like we are going to go horror. I think we are going to go hard. We're almost going to go hard as a way of overcompensating. The reason being your best bounce back is to live your best life. And so we have all these clubs in mind and of course we're going to get on the apps. We hope to really blow Europe out and we are actually so excited about it. I mean, I'm more excited than you are because you're still in the seven stages of grief. I'm really hopeful. I'm climbing my way out though. We're still, you know, fingers crossed. Maybe there's a Dutch and Timberlake to meet, but if not, we're just going to see what there is to see. There's so many clubs like Paris has like four clubs and Amsterdam has more clubs as well that we haven't even hit. We're thinking, can we do two in one night? We're talking about going to Feta Morgana, Fun for Two, same place. Showboat, maybe. Showboat. You said that that's a new one in Amsterdam that's actually on a boat. I don't think it's new, but I'm on a boat. Motherfucker, I'm on a boat. Slippy Fluffies. I'm on a boat. Motherfucker, I'm on a boat. And then in Paris, we are going to hit Le Chandel, Le Masque, which we've done before, but we're also going to go to Taken and La Marquis, which we've never been to. And we're going to pod from the road. It's going to be a good time. We're going to live our best life. Doesn't feel like it right now because we're not living our best life right now. But it also speaks to another point, which is that you've got to have a stable because it'll help you not to fixate on just one person. And a lot of people don't do that. You find like that one couple you really love and you're just like, oh, I don't want to keep searching. Let's just see them once a month, twice a month. And then when it ends, you'll be far more likely to get your heart broken. You're going to be gutted. And we're telling you, this is what gutted feels like. And it is not pretty. Fortunately, we do have a lot of people in our lives. But if we didn't, this would feel 10 times worse. In fact, we're seeing someone tonight. And even though I might not be 100 percent, I think it'll be good for me to start the process of moving on. I think it'll be fantastic. I'm looking forward to it. Although I say that, but I know that if she slid back into our DMs, even just as a friend, I think I'd have a hard time looking away. Definitely, because, you know, it was so good when it was good. And it just went sideways. And it feels like if it had gone sideways on our part, like something really changed, I would have been able to put that aside and say, let's just try again. I think for her, it probably felt fundamental. It may have had some things to do with things that we don't even know. But you wonder again, the age old question is, can you be friends in the lifestyle without being lovers? I still think we haven't been able to answer that. But so far, I still lean towards now. I don't feel like the way it was left is that we are meant to be friends. I would love more than anything to hear what's going on in her life. I know about her vanilla life. I know kind of what's going on. I would love to share her own. Yeah. And I'd love to have her pop in every now and again. I just love to be a friend, but I don't know if that's in the cards. When somebody says I wish you the best, it usually means I never want to talk to you again. Now, it didn't help that I also ended with, likewise, we wish you nothing but the best. But I think we were just feeling a little bit defensive and sounds a little form letter. We were definitely feeling shell shocked because we weren't expecting that text at that moment. And so it was kind of a reactive message. I'd love to think that you could still drop in and say hi without having to fall into bed together. But nothing I've seen so far has convinced me that that's possible. And it's kind of sad because maybe it's just the circle of life. What can we do for one another in that moment? And when that moment's past, it's gone. Like we have a lot of lifestyle friends that we are not playing with, but it's mostly pod related because they slide into our DMs and then we become friends. And maybe it's because play is always in the ether as a possibility. But other than that, if you're meeting people at the club, I'm not sure it's possible to be friends without playing. It does seem to go the way the dodo don't live with regrets. Fuck regrets. You got to live for the moment. You can't go back and change things. Leo does that all the time. I am the queen of coulda, woulda, shoulda, what if. And he always looks at me like, why do you go there? Because it doesn't matter. You can't change what you did. I do it all the time. Well, you think this will never happen again, but there will be new experiences that will come along shortly and some even better than the last. Some might send your eyebrows just the same. And those new memories will help to overwrite the old ones and help you forget about those painful times when you felt like you were getting over a loss. And then you can just focus on the positivity because in all my, you know, feeling broken up with or all my ghosted moments, I now with time and reflection, I'm able to look back on any of those ones I mentioned and be really happy about them. Like, oh, I remember that. That was so good. I don't remember the moment where they decided not to write back to me. No. And I think that part of that is that, you know, pleasure and pain are really two sides of the same coin. I guess BDSM people know that really well. Yeah, you're probably not wrong because, you know, the whole idea of the flogging and you get to a certain point of pain that it almost creates the pleasurable feeling for some. So in a way, I think you've got to embrace both because I think they both make you feel more human. So you can have an ugly cry face while you're having an orgasm. Ooh, I don't want to see my ugly cry face. And some tears rolling down your eyes while you're going. It doesn't sound pleasant at all. So I'm going to step back. I'm going to sit that one out. Maybe I'll have some crying orgasms. I know I'm used to me being the one that's having the issues. This is so backwards. You're on the other foot. I mean, this has been like two years of I've had great experiences, but they're always like, oh, the shoe is going to drop. The shoe is going to drop. We've never had that with our single female playmates. And it's been actually a buoy for me because I don't like, well, at least that's going really well. Yeah, because they fulfill a very important component to our lifestyle experience. All the time. They're some of the best parts. It fulfills a lot for me as well, even when I'm faced with the opposite on the other end. And you know, I think it's made me realize that ultimately, I'm going to want to quit the lifestyle one day. He's going to want to quit before I'm ready. This isn't going to be a 10-year thing for me. I think I feel like I'll have seen most of what there is to see. And my interest will turn to wanting to move on to something else. But you know I'm not going to be ready. I just know it. I know I'm not going to be ready when you're ready. I think that's part of the reason that I lean into the experiences that have feelings, because I want to experience all of it. The good, the bad. I mean, this to feel. You want to feel ecstasy. You want to feel crippling loss. I get it. That's what's so beautiful about the lifestyle is we keep doing new things. We go new places. It's forcing us like we're going to Europe. We're going to go to more clubs than we've ever been to. And it's because we're lifestyle related. We've been to Amsterdam many times. We've been to Paris many times, but never with the idea of let's go do this different and this different. And you know what? Yeah. I feel pretty alive right now. I'm glad. And I think you have to try to do something every day that scares you. Pretend that one day you'll look back at a movie about your life. Would it be one that people would want to sit through and watch? Or would it be like train dreams? And that one wasn't worth watching. That was the life of an unremarkable man. And he had an unremarkable life. But maybe we're yucking somebody's young. Maybe they loved that movie because it was very artistic. It was very artistic. It just was very bleak. Hey, we're allowed to have an opinion. We just didn't really like that. We like a happy ending. But maybe you like trains. I like happy endings. You like trains. I am not going to have a train run on me. OK, thank you very much. I actually just ran a train on field today and I noped right out of 369 lakes. Yeah, you're pretty picky. Oh, my God, it's ridiculous. I think I was in a very good mood. And so I was just next thing. Every one of them thinking, God, what is wrong with me? Well, you're going to put us in Amsterdam and you're going to be swiping for guys, girls and couples. Yes, we are going to go hard. The next frontier. But then Paris make the movie about your life a good one. Try to make it a great one and maybe even Oscar worthy. And don't worry about when you have these lows, when you get broken up with or when you have to do the breaking up with someone, you have to decide, are you going to be the honest one like she did with us and just say, hey, this isn't going to work. I wish you the best. Or are you going to be the ghosty one like all my single guys who either ghost or slowly fade out, decide what works for you. Well, she was definitely the more honest one. She was definitely the more brave one and the stronger one. I think that for that she deserves a lot of credit. I think ultimately we just like to talk a lot. And so for us, we always want to know more like, well, what went wrong? Let's talk about it. I don't know. We just talk too damn much. But you know, even outside of that, people are complicated and you can drive yourself crazy, you know, you say out all the wise and the what's you always say that this is like playing human chess. It's not the same as playing chess on a chess board. All the pieces are alive and living and have feelings and emotions. And it is so complicated because every piece on the board is uniquely different. That's what makes it so exciting. No two games are ever the same. And sure, there are patterns that emerge, but as soon as you think you figured it out, you realize that you really don't know anything at all. And then you've been shot out of a cannon. So don't spend too much of your life force trying to figure out the why's and the what's of why these things end. I probably don't even know all the facts in this circumstance. And you probably never will. All we can do is speculate and we do a pretty good job of speculating. But all we can do is figure out where we think we went wrong and try to make changes. I mean, that's exactly right. Because from each of these experiences, you have to learn, you have to grow, and you have to constantly be evolving from your experiences. I know that this will make me a better person and it will make me a better man. It took losing something that I really wanted for me to make that change. And if that's what it cost me to be a better human, then it's a price that I have to be willing to pay. So what we've learned is not every connection is meant to last. Some are just meant to teach you something about yourself. I know I'm going to miss her. She was beautiful, sweet, smart, strong. She was a strong woman. I liked her a lot. I liked her a lot, too. I still like her. I still like her, too. If she slid into our DMs a year from now, I wouldn't be mad about it. But if not, she may be gone for good. But she won't soon be forgotten. Watching you walk away. So sad to see you go. I know that people change. And I know for us to grow. We got to live what long as you know. Follow your heart. Wherever it takes you, she's gone. So if you liked what you heard, go ahead and either subscribe or I didn't know how that works. Just come and listen. We might post once a week. We might post a couple times a month. I don't know. We might get bored and stop doing it. So you better come and listen while it's still going. Otherwise, we'll lose interest. Tell us how much you like it. Yeah. Leave a comment. That'd be cool. We love it. Where can they leave a comment? I don't know. Maybe we'll also comment. We don't have a website. Okay. Okay.