Fireside Chat at IRVA: On Ufology, Psi Phenomena & Remote Viewing

Coming to you from SpectreVision Radio. This fall, the Caribbean gets even stranger. I am blinded by a bright white light. More true tales. I knew it was some sort of demon trying to enter our home. More haunted history. Wimbraith House Plantation is where the slaves were making the sugar key. Caribbean Mystics returns with new episodes every Thursday. We're diving even deeper into Caribbean folklore, paranormal encounters. I saw this shadowy figure coming right over the wall. UFOs. I don't want to panic until I'm seeing aliens and UFOs in the sky. And the strange magic woven through our history and culture. I was raised by grandparents who practiced obeah, all witchcraft. Caribbean Mystics. Now streaming on all podcast platforms. Welcome back to Cosmosis. I'm Kelly Chase, along with my co-host, Jay Christopher King. This week, we're sharing something a little different. Last month, Jay and I were invited to the International Remote Viewing Association Conference to give a fireside chat hosted by Cindy Miller about the connection between remote viewing and the UFO phenomenon. If you've been following our work, you already know that cosmosus exists to bridge worlds. We're not interested in treating UFOs as a spectacle or a curiosity. we want to understand what these encounters imply about consciousness, agency, and what it means to be human. And remote viewing is one of the few disciplines that approaches those same questions with rigor, training, and most importantly, measurable feedback. It was incredible to be in a room full of people who take consciousness seriously. People who aren't afraid to experiment with perception, who understand that reality might be participatory and who are willing to explore the edges of what a human mind can do. In this Fireside Chat, we talk about why remote viewing and UFOs belong in the same conversation, the importance of creative and narrative sovereignty when telling anomalous stories, how imagination and perception intersect when we bump into the unknown, and why the most important part of this phenomenon might not be what's out there, but what's waking up in us. And yes, we get to the big questions. If remote viewing can access anything, can it access UFOs and non-human intelligence? Before we jump in, a quick reminder. If you want to go deeper into this work, join our Patreon community at CosmosisCommunity.com. Members get early access to ad-free episodes, monthly community calls and events, and our private Discord server. And our docuseries, Cosmosis, UFOs and a New Reality, is streaming now on Amazon Prime, Apple TV, and multiple other platforms. You can find all the links at cosmosis.media. All right, let's get into it. Here's our live fireside chat from IRVA on remote viewing, UFOs, and what happens when two mysteries finally meet. I am so excited that Kelly and Jay are here. They're well known in the UFO, UAP community and have quite the followings, both through their experience, her group and podcast Cosmosis. So I was so thrilled when they decided to come to a remote viewing conference because, you know, remote viewing is all about the mysteries of the mind, whereas UFOs and UAPs are sort of mysteries about the universe. But they all ask, you know, make us question what is reality and, you know, what is consciousness and what are these things that seem to intertwine throughout history? So I have a few questions and we'll start out with, but I really want to hear questions from you all. And I have more questions if you don't have questions, but I'm hoping that you do. So we'll just start with one. What drew you to include remote viewing in Cosmosis, this latest production that you're doing and filming, in part here at the IRVA conference? and what were some of the advantages and challenges in doing so? Oh, well, first of all, thank you so much for having us here. We are thrilled to be here. We're so fascinated by remote viewing, the history of remote viewing, and we are like kids in a candy store at this conference. So thank you so much for having us and for being willing to hear what we have to say. Thank you, Cindy. It was really important to us when we started Cosmosis. It's called Cosmosis, UFOs, and a New Reality, because the thing that we were really interested in doing was creating something that we didn't see existing in the space. There's a lot of documentaries, especially, you know, since the 2017 New York Times article and all of this, where suddenly we're talking about the UFO phenomenon, but it felt like so much of the media that was in that format, documentaries, docuseries, was really trying to make the argument about whether or not we should even be taking this seriously. Like, should we even, is this even something worth talking about? And we recognize that there's a much deeper community of, you know, enlightened and curious individuals who recognize that there is a fundamental reality to this phenomenon, but that it's so much more complex than it's normally presented to us. And that we really wanted to create something that spoke to that, that took that, yes, there is a fundamental reality to this phenomenon, but that there is, and that we wanted to then ask the question, like, so what does that mean? Like, what does it mean that this is real? What does it mean that it's so weird? And we wanted to talk about the implications of the UFO phenomenon for what it means about the nature of our reality and who we are and all of these kind of bigger questions. And I think that, like, there is such a connection between UFOs and remote viewing for many reasons, but I think fundamentally at its core is that both the UFO phenomenon and remote viewing challenge us to look at reality differently and to ask, how is it that the things that we were told are so, it turns out, aren't maybe actually so? And what is the nature of our reality that these things that we've been told are impossible aren't just possible, but they're happening to people all the time? And so we felt like remote viewing was something that was so essential to include. And I think with Jay and I both, you know, in the work that we do, we talk to so many people who are just kind of coming to terms with the more anomalous aspects of reality. And for people who are kind of having those seeking questions, I don't think that there's a better way than remote viewing for people who are new to these ideas to kind of confirm for themselves that reality is far more complex than we've been told, that we are all far more capable of things than we have ever been told. And that for somebody who's looking for that confirmation in their seeking, that remote viewing is always the first place that I send people. I'm like, just try it. Just try it. You'll freak yourself out and you'll see the world differently. And so we were really honored to get to include Paul H. Smith in the show. We love Paul and we're so grateful for the contributions that he made to the show. Yeah, absolutely. And along those lines, I mean, this is our first time at Erdogan, right? And we don't really know exactly the overlap. So one question that I had, Cindy, I don't mean to, but a show of hands. Like, who kind of fundamentally thinks there might be something to the UFO phenomenon? We're in the right room. We're in the right room. That's fantastic. But we want to expand these conversations, right? Like remote, we think, I mean, one of the reasons I think that Cindy and us have vibed so well and, you know, other folks in the remote viewing community is that, like, we are really interested in unboxing and getting away from these, you know, so many people within paranormal discourse, they stick to hauntings or they stick to, you know, psychokinesis or they stick to this, that, or the other thing. And there's so much that fundamentally underlines all of this. And we really, you know, we're doing a disservice to ourselves and to the field overall within anomalous culture, anomalous studies, if we don't, you know, bridge these fields, right? So along those lines, it's great to see those hands. and if there are things that you hear in our talk right now that you're just like, that's not quite right. Or that you think that could add context or depth to the conversation from us, from kind of the UFO perspective in general or the experience or perspective of NHI and stuff like that, please introduce yourselves. And we want to encourage dialogue with all of you. Thanks so much. That's great. And what I like about their work is that they also maintain independent filmmaking in your cosmoses? I know that wasn't one of the questions we talked about, but I think, you know, could you say just a little bit about that, why that's so important to you, especially in this field? Oh, gosh. Yes. No, absolutely. I think it's really complicated to tell stories that are kind of outside of consensus reality. You're going to have a hard time raising money for it. You're going to have a hard time getting support for it. Jay in particular has a really extensive background in television production, and so he's really seen a lot of this stuff up close. And, you know, when you have a platform and you're talking about things that are maybe a little dangerous, because I do think that these topics are dangerous. I think remote viewing is a dangerous topic. It suggests that human beings are far more able and complex and interesting and multidimensional than anybody wants us to believe about ourselves. And so being able to maintain complete creative control over our work is paramount to us. There's nothing else that's more important. There's no check that anybody could write that would make us give that up. Because I think that if you're going to authentically tell stories about the anomalous, about experiencers, about people who have extraordinary experiences, about the parts of ourselves and our reality that are more dangerous, you have to be able to maintain that creative control, or you're going to lose it immediately, and the thing that you have created will cease to be the thing that you wanted it to be. One example from our show is we worked with Mario Woods. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with his story, but he has a really, really interesting case from the 1970s, and it's a military case, and it's very, very well documented, and he's an extraordinary human being. And his story has been told many times in other shows, but it's never been told in its entirety. They cut out things. They tell the part about how he saw a giant orb over a nuclear launch facility and that there was some missing time. But they always cut out the part where he saw beings that I think most people would describe as gray aliens. and also what happened after. Because I think so many people who have these kinds of experiences know that this isn't something that just happens in one moment. This is something that happens to you. And then it unfurls itself into your life in all kinds of different ways. So they don't talk about the fact that after that, he started having all kinds of very strange dreams. And they don't talk about the way that the secrecy around this event kind of upended his entire life and that destroyed his marriage at the time and all of these things. And so I think it's really important to have that so that you can tell these stories in their fullness and in their complexity, because people who are experiencers of the anomalous deserve to have their stories told faithfully. And so that's always going to be kind of paramount to us. What she said. 100%. So you've mentioned remote viewing sort of in the terms. Do you see it as a meeting of the UFO phenomena on your own terms, the ability to look into the phenomena through direct experience rather than external observation of things flying in the sky? Yeah. I mean, One of the things that I think is crucially important, and one of the things that's lacking in ufology dialogue, discourse, online, in media, even people that are very, very deep in the community, there's this idea that this is something that happens that's way up in the sky. And even after the 2017 New York Times article and that whole kind of you know TTSA and Leslie and Ralph and Aline Cooper and that whole thing amazing work And but one minor criticism there is that it kind of rebooted, did a hard reboot on ufology in general. Right. And it was kind of like, let's let's let's forget all this other stuff that happened. But we can't. But we can't. And the thing is, is that like, like what that did, what happened there is that it got us back to the Battelle report, number 14, Project Blue Book, years and years and years ago. This idea that like UFOs are something that happens way off over there. And the reality is that UFOs, non-human intelligence, contact happens with us. It's on a very, very, very deep level, right? It's transpersonal. And if you can't get there, if you can't reach that place, then you're not going to have a thorough contextual conversation about this. And it's one of the things that I love about remote viewing because most people's understanding, if they know about remote viewing at all, right? It's that like, oh, somebody tasked me, they gave me a number, and it was monkey bars, right? Like out of mind reach or whatever, you know, somebody goes to a park or whatever, and then it's like, oh, it's monkey bars. Great. But there are so many people that, I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, where so many people like are looking at criminal cases and things like that. And you have to remove view. You know, what often happens here is it's either the suspect or the victim, right? And in cases like that, like people have this like deeply transpersonal contact and it can turn people off from a remote viewing, right? And this is, I think, one of the connections between the UFO phenomenon and remote viewing, that we're not thinking enough about the psychological aspects of that kind of communion, that kind of bonding between different people's consciousnesses and what the consciousness field really implies, right? Yeah, I agree. I, you know, the question about whether or not remote viewing can help us get closer to understand the UFO phenomenon, I think that it probably can. But I also, you know, we're students and we're fans in this capacity when it comes to remote viewing. That's not our wheelhouse, our expertise. And the thing that I've learned from talking, you know, to the incredible remote viewers that we've had the opportunity to interview is just, you know, how complex it is and how important it is to have feedback on the target so that you can, you know, understand like how close you got to actually getting there. I think what's tough with things like UFOs is that we don't have, you can't do that, right? Like you don't ever get that feedback. And so that is a challenge that I absolutely recognize. And I'm so, you know, grateful to the people in this field who work so hard to maintain that level of like rigor and seriousness about how this is all conducted. But I also do think that there is promise there because when it comes to the truly unknown, we're always kind of going off the edge of the map. We're always kind of going into the place of where we, you know, no longer really have those landmarks and ways to orient ourselves. And so I think that they're, you know, cautiously, and with an understanding of the field, I think that we can still look at remote viewing as like a really legitimate and exciting way to explore the anomalous. Yes, yes. I'd like to ask if anyone has any questions. Chase, can someone give, yeah. Hey, Chase. Hi, Chase. I loved your talk today, by the way. Thank you so much. So I came to remote viewing partly through UAP community. The UAP community is very large, much larger than the remote viewing community. And when I came to it, part of that was at the UAP hackathon that I won. I had all these people trying to build like UFO detection machines and stuff like that. And I'd go to them and I'd be like, how are you gonna test that? Good luck with that. And then you have these people that wanna go to conferences because they wanna know, they wanna experience something. They put in a lot of effort to try to experience something. Whereas remote viewing is so much more accessible. And so I guess my question to you is, you're trying to, starting to bring that to the UAP community. How receptive have they been to that? Are they seeing that as an answer to like having an easier access to an anomalous phenomenon on demand? Or are they like, oh no, I like spaceships. Those are cool and this is not that spaceships. That's such a good question. Thank you, Chase. You know, I think that so many people really are open to it. there's kind of like this, the, there's, the UFO community is like an iceberg, right? Like there's the, there's the part that you see if you go on social media or like the podcast circuit and right, that's like above the water, but there's, there's so much more underneath. And I think that what we've really seen over the last few years is this growing of a community of people who are not so interested in like disclosure and government coverups, they're over it, right? They want to talk about what it means that this phenomenon is real. And I think that those people are asking much bigger questions than the questions that were kind of getting shoved down our throats through the kind of more ufological orthodoxy, I'll say. And that community is growing. It's growing every day. And we're really excited to see that happen. And I think that for people like that, that I recommend remote viewing, like I said, all the time. And people do it, and I see it change their lives, and I see it change how they see the world. And there aren't very many other ways to do it. Like, honestly, the only real kind of reasonable facsimile that I can think of is like CE5 or like contact protocols and that sort of thing. And like, I can't recommend, like, I cannot ethically recommend to people that they do that. I know there's, I have a lot of friends who do it. I know they take that very seriously, but there is danger involved in just dialing up whoever's out there and seeing what happens. Remote viewing is, I think, a safer and more accessible way for people to get that confirmation. I see a lot of people doing that. I tend to agree. And, you know, people sometimes ask me about, you know, like the ways that we approach exercises. Like, how do you approach the phenomenon? And, like, I like to say, like, I don't use Ouija boards because I like to know where my car keys are going to be in the morning. And those of you that have actually worked with Ouija boards probably understand what I'm talking about. Remote viewing is, like, it seems like such a safe way to go about doing that, generally speaking. Like we were in the workshop last night, I was shooting the workshop with Paul H. Smith last night, and one of the things that I think is so mind-blowing about remote viewing and like something that really the rest of the paranormal community, the rest of the anomalous studies researchers really should like look towards is that when the responses, when you're They're getting a hit. People, not just the gestalt of the object or the scene or whatever that they're tasked with looking at, it's that they're getting at the essence of that thing. They're getting at the essence of the target. And that happens so infrequently. And there are so many mysteries. Going back to Passport to Megonia, Jacques Vallée, John Keel. The idea that, you know, the phenomenon and these anomalies wear so many masks, like the remote viewing community has something that nobody else in anomalous studies does in that there's a direct connection, like from the onset and from the teaching that like you want to be looking at the essence of what that is. and that's the part where we can get to a place where we can maybe start to actually get some answers rather than just asking bigger questions as we're transferring. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jessica. Oh, Rachel. Rachel's asking. Well, I use a Ouija board, so bad news. Which is totally cool, too. Yeah, maybe you don't need to know where your car is in the morning. It's fine. You know, who cares? Goes in the dark. That helps. So this is not related to remote viewing, but I have to ask it regardless. So in Whitley Stryver's communion, he says that above, aboard the spaceship, he sees his deceased loved ones. Thoughts, feelings, comments. I would love to hear them. Yeah, no, I love, I love that story. And I, I feel like I come back, you know, Whitley's dearly departed wife had said very famously that, you know, whatever the UFO phenomenon is, that it has something to do with what we call the dead. And I tend to believe that that's true. And I only, the more I see, the more I experience, the more field work I do, the more experiencers I talk to, the more I, I think that there's absolutely something there. I think that, I think that whatever we are as human beings is far more complex than we know. And that I truly believe that the human being is a multi-dimensional being, even though we can't very well define a dimensional. Language fails us, right, when we truly get off the edge of the map. But I think that there's absolutely something there. You know, a friend, a mentor of ours is, you know, Jeffrey Kripal, and he talks about how he thinks it's ridiculous what the government's doing because he says, he says, you're trying to shoot down souls. Good luck with that. And I think that he really might be right. You know, the experiences that people have with UFOs, a very small minority percentage of them are with something that resembles technology. Most of what people are observing and interacting with is something that is more like orbs of light or energy beings or things that are far less material than kind of what we're shown through the popular culture in science fiction. Those other things absolutely happen. You know, the physical craft, the physical beings. I don't want to discount that in any way, but the majority of what the phenomenon is is something that's far more kind of ephemeral than that. And I don't think we talk about that nearly enough. And I think that it implies something about the soul. I think that that, like in 2025, can be like a- Which is such a dirty word. It's such a, like I'm like a friend, can I say soul? But I think it's something like that, that there is, that we as human beings have a, there is something about us that persists. And that there is something about us that exists outside of this 3D world experience that we have. and we are just in our infancy of beginning to remember that. And I think it is remembering, because I think we used to know more about it than we know now. So yeah, I think there's a huge relation there. I wish I could speak more articulately about what I think that is, but I think we're babes in the woods in some ways, still trying to figure exactly what that connection is, but I think it's there and it's profound and it's undeniable. Yeah, I think one of the things that we don't, we're kind of trained, you know, the closer that we get to science with a capital S or something like that, the further we get away from being able to talk about the soul, right? I mean, I was having a conversation with a few people that are attending, and, you know, one of the questions that I got, I was talking to somebody from the cleaning staff over at the lodge, right? And she was like, what are you guys doing here? Who are you guys? And I was like, that's a very interesting question. And I was like, well, and I was trying to boil it down, you know, and I was like, there are people here that are basically professional psychics, you know, and they see stuff that's way off in the distance. And she's like, okay, I got it. And then she kind of pauses for a second. She goes, what was the question? It was like, do you think about AI? And I was like, yeah, I think about AI all the time. She's like, do you think that AI is actually going to be able to approach our level of consciousness? Right? And I think one of the things there is that, and what I said to her was like, the challenge there is that the stumbling block is that nobody wants to talk about the idea of spirit or the soul or whatever that is, the spark that we live in. And when people say, like, can AI be like us? They want to dance around that issue. Right? Can AI be self-aware? Can AI be intelligent? All these things, right? But they don't want to talk about that, right? And I think one of the unifying principles here is that when we're talking about remote viewing, like one of the weird things about remote viewing is that it's presented as science, but there's this undercurrent of shamanism that is absolutely here, 100%, right? And we can dress it up with reports and like all this other kind of stuff, But there's something here that goes way back, way, way back, like way before SRI, way before any of this stuff. And we forget it, right? And it underlines this whole phenomenon. So over here, but then Chris over here after that. Sorry, Chris, the microphone was already on this end of the room. Anyway, I'm thinking, so you have people like remote viewing the crafts, the aliens, or whatever. If it not a blind target it totally front And how do you deal with all the imaginings And then also if you going to try and give somebody a blind target how do you even set the target no these are fantastic questions and honestly we may not be the not may not be we are 100% not the best people to answer them um I would say though that that that's the challenge and that the thing that you're speaking to, I think is a challenge in all of this, not just in remote viewing, but in all aspects of approaching the UFO phenomenon and non-human intelligence. That like the imaginings that you're talking about, that is, there's a lot of evidence in the data to suggest that people's own kind of imaginings play. Are there belief systems? Yeah, belief systems, archetypes, like all of these things that they're, it's very difficult for us to perceive things that are truly outside of our understanding and of our consensus reality and that our imagination in some ways, I think Jeffrey Kripal, his most recent book, How to Think Impossibly talks about this far more articulately than I ever could, that becomes a part of how we perceive the anomalous. And so it's not just in remote viewing that there is this issue. And so like, I see the potential there just because a remote viewing allows people to see the things that people shouldn't be able to see, but I don't think that there's any way to do it that we're responsibly without constant question, questioning, constant skepticism of your own thoughts, of your own beliefs, of your own perceptions and of your own ability to kind of fill in the blanks with the imaginal. So I think it's a really important question that you're asking. Yeah. And along those lines, one of the things that, again, the thread here, for me anyway, I keep thinking about it, is what does remote viewing have that so many other aspects of paranormal research does not have? And one of them is this training that we see, which is like, you can't concretize the object. You have a target and you're looking for descriptors, you have to resist landing on what you think it is, right? And that's such a feature. And like I think that that is so freaking important. And like there are more like people with it, whether you're looking at the land of the dead, whether you're looking at mediumship, whether you're looking at UFO, like no matter what in this you're looking at, getting beyond like this kind of like, you want it to be this because like, that's your belief system, you know? This idea that like within disclosure discourse, within the UFO community and things like that, that there's all this talk about weasel words, right? Where it's like people from certain areas of the government or military, et cetera, will say like, there's no evidence for extraterrestrials. And then people within our community will be like, well, but you're not really talking about non-human intelligence. You're boxing it into this idea of aliens from some other place. And the reality is that like what we see is so pervasive that it seems like it's much more baked into a local phenomenon, something that we're in. But we also have to resist that as well. Yeah, and one thing just to add real fast is that I actually, why we're so thrilled to be here, well, for many reasons we're thrilled to be here, but one of the main reasons we're so thrilled to be here is that these different communities get so siloed, and I feel like we don't talk to each other enough. And I truly believe that the remote viewing community is, because of the training and the understanding and the rigor that's put around the actual process of remote viewing, that this is a community that's actually uniquely well-suited to be asking these questions in a way and with a level of rigor that we don't always see in the UFO community. I'll say that. Chris. I want to thank you guys. so much for coming here today and having this absolutely important and vital conversation to all of these communities. When it comes to UFOs and the connection to other communities, paranormal, even cryptozoology, things like that, what do you think the chances are, especially when you're talking about remote viewing in that original sense of, is a scientist possibly affecting his experiment when he goes home and thinks about it. Could it be when people are preparing for a paranormal investigation, when people are preparing for a cryptozoological investigation, anything like that, even UFO, UAP, going to a place that they know things possibly occur. Is there a difference between just preparing your rote equipment and having a checklist and being done or going down the rabbit hole of actually reading things, going down YouTube videos, things like that. Could it be that you are actively manifesting what is happening at the location and setting that up? Holy shit. Such a good question. AV tech coming up with such a great material. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Chris. No, you want to start? Yeah. I mean, I think these are questions that you have to ask constantly. because I'm sure that there's probably a much higher level of education in this room that it most about the UFO phenomenon. So I'll skim over a lot of this and assume you guys know. But, you know, the UFO phenomenon and contact with non-human intelligence has changed dramatically over time. The structure and the content of the experiences end up remaining rather consistent. There's kind of like hallmarks of it, not just in what happens and what's communicated to people, but how people change and react to those experiences. So we have reason to believe that this is a persistent phenomenon over millennia, and yet there are, it changes. Like even just from decade to decade, what people see, what people encounter, you know, back in like the 50s, it was people were seeing the Space Brothers who more or less looked like you and me, you know, but they were from Venus, right? I love the Space Brothers. We love the Space Brothers. I'm a big fan of the lore of the Space Brothers. Yes, and I think that we absolutely have to recognize the ways in which both the phenomenon seeds particular ideas, images, archetypes into the culture in ways that are very significant, but that also that then the culture turns back around and seeds other things. Like so much of our conception of what we're encountering ends up getting shaped inevitably by, you know, media, television, sci-fi, that sort of thing. And I think that the only way to navigate responsibly and with any kind of hope that you're going to figure anything out, which I actually don't have a lot of hope that I'm going to figure much out, but kind of the magic of it, is that you do have to constantly be questioning your own beliefs, your own biases, your own, you constantly have to be asking, like, what is the lens and the filter through which I am perceiving this encounter? and understanding that the huge role that your own beliefs and, you know, pre, pre, I want to say. Anyways, you know what I'm saying? Your own beliefs and predispositions. Yes, that's the word. Sorry, I lost me. You got it. Oh, yeah. I mean, along those lines, one thing, our episode this week on the podcast is on John Keel's Operation Trojan Horse. And I don't know how many of you know John Keel's work or Operation Trojan Horse in general. so wildly ahead of its time, 50 years ago, 55 years ago that it came out. Yeah, yeah, 55 years ago, I think. And, you know, one of the things that he points out in there is that there are these French airship cases where, like, that, you know, there's always this question about UFOs where it's like the UFOs seem to be just like one or two steps ahead of us. And it's like, is that really the case? Or are they seeding our consciousness? Are they giving us a challenge, right? And he points out that like some of those early airship cases happened in France about 10 years before airships were essentially like dirigibles were essentially like kind of more formalized in France in that same area about 10 years later. And so there's kind of like this like challenge aspect, this kind of double bear aspect, you know what I mean, to that kind of of situation. And along those lines, when we talk about remote viewing as connecting with another individual, we see so many times where NHI interacts with us, and it has this deep resonance with us. It doesn't just use our language, you specifically, like your slang. And it can play your human experience and your history. like a piano, you know what I mean? Like one thing that along those lines that keeps coming back to me is my friend Stuart lives up in Longmont in Colorado. And like he had this experience with these mantid-like beings that many people have encountered. And before that experience, he recognized that he had the sense of being watched, right? So many people have felt that. And then he kind of like mentally asked like, Is something going to happen here? And what he heard through his ears were the tones of this hearing test that he had to do when he was a child, back when he was like seven, eight years old, right? Because he had like hearing problems, right? And he heard these tones and then, and he recognized that that was kind of like the doorbell. That was like the knock at the door. and then the experience began, right? And so I think in that way, like these communities have so much overlap because like what we're dealing with there is like a 301, 401, like these people have like a master's degree in remote viewing. And we're just like, kind of like, at least me anyway, like I'm like a sophomore in high school with this stuff at best, right? We have one over there. I know you have a question. I saw Julian's hands up. Was there any one? And then was there anyone else on this side? We just, okay, and then Jeff. So, all right, so we can, we go a little bit like this. Okay. I can hear you. Can you hear me? I can hear you, you're fine. Go ahead. Has anyone tried to remote view the gray aliens in the past, but who already learned from anymore? What's that? Any questions? Okay, so the question was, for the video later, was, has anybody tried to remote view the gray aliens? And the answer is yes, absolutely. And it would be great to, like, I'm not the authority on that. Maybe we should maybe talk to Paul or some other folks on that that have been informally or formally tasked with remote viewing non-human intelligence. I'm not that guy, but it has happened. And one of the interesting things there is that there are a lot of cases where people have either been tasked or tasked themselves with looking at NHI. And in that situation, they felt like they were being viewed back, like immediately. And I think that that's absolutely fascinating. And it can exist beyond, it seemingly exists beyond time. People will be targeted, they'll be tasked with remote viewing like non-human intelligence like either in the distant past or even in the future and and that whatever that intelligence is we'll be looking back right then and some people have even reported being feeling like they're being like kind of pushed or kicked out of a session because of like I don't know the the telepathic heft of the NHI I don't know what that is it's interesting That's a great question. And if anybody here knows more about that, I would love, love, love to hear more. So I want to make sure we get this part of the room because there's so many questions over there. I know you've been, have your hand up like forever. So could we move it over here, come up here, get a question over here, and then we can go back to this area just to make sure questions come from different areas of the room. She's standing, she's been standing up for quite a while. You're welcome. I know. Sorry. Okay. Based on your experiences and some of the experiences of people you know, do you think that RV could pave the way for two-way conversation, essentially become a language where we could communicate like in a diplomatic way? Oh, that's such an interesting question. Thank you for that. I do. I think that. So Jay and I often do like contact in the desert, right? And there's a, there's a lot of experiencers there and like we do panels and that sort of thing. And one of a panel that Jay did, I believe it was last year that Jay led. And he asked a question of the experiencers on stage who included like Whitley Streber, and I forget who else was there, but it was- Travis Walton. Yeah, yeah, and people you would know. And he asked like, what do you think this is about? Like, what do you ultimately think this phenomenon and contact is about? And every single person on that stage said telepathy. They all felt very strongly that contact was about was about helping us in some sense awaken our telepathic and our psychic abilities because it was going to become crucial for us as a species that we remember and recover those skills and abilities And so I do think that that I was really bowled over by that time I found it to be a really challenging answer, to be honest with you. And I've thought about it probably every single day since. And the more that I learn and the more that I talk to people and the more I have my own experiences, the more I think that that actually is a really profound and probably accurate answer. I think, like I said, I've said before, I think a human being is a fearsome and beautiful thing, and that we are capable of things far beyond what we've been told. And I do think that there is something that wants to communicate with us, and I think that we have the capacity to do it, and that it's communities like this and people like the people in this room who are the true pioneers of the future, who are potentially not just helping us remember ourselves, but potentially helping us save ourselves. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing. I totally agree with Kelly. And one thing that I would add is that, I run this group called the Experiencer Group, support sessions for people that have had enormous experiences, a lot of conversations, it's fun. We've got an art club that that guy over there, Justin James Reid, our cameraman, it's fantastic. You know, one thing here is that like experiencers, what I see, there's there's different buckets. Right. And one of them is that like a lot of anomalous experiencers, if it doesn't happen by adolescence, if they haven't had a strange experience by adolescence, what I've seen in like and I know that it's absolutely completely subjective to my experience. but the most people that come into the community are people that are really active meditators. Like if it comes to them late in adulthood, it's from being a like receptive, very developed meditators. And I think that that's fascinating. And one thing, like back to your question, and I think it's an amazing question, is that like that people have to train themselves to be receptive to be able to hear, clear audience, telepathy, all that stuff. And then it can open a door. But along the lines of remote viewing, these are the kinds of avenues where we can begin to speak back. And I think that that's critically important. Thank you. DEBORAH GARCIA- Debra, after you ask a question, could you bring it down here to Jeff? DEBORAH GARCIA- Sure. DEBORAH GARCIA- Thank you. DEBORAH GARCIA- Yeah. I had the random thought that maybe AI itself is not conscious, but it could be used as a vehicle by which an intelligence or spirit could then enter into it and start to make use of it. I think that's a, I tend to agree with you. I think that there's something there. I had the opportunity to interview Bernardo Kastrup, a really brilliant philosopher. And he has specifically really looked at the question of AI and of can AI be conscious. And his belief is that probably it can't, that on its own, that it can be intelligent without being conscious or without being kind of sentient, like having an awareness of itself. And I think that that is a really fascinating idea also kind of a frightening one because it expands the idea of what non-human intelligence could be. What is an intelligence that has no self-awareness? What is an intelligence that doesn't have consciousness? And honestly, the way that a lot of experiencers describe their encounters with beings like the greys tend to sound like it could be something like that, like something that could be intelligent but not necessarily conscious. So I think that that's a really interesting angle. But I do wonder, I've had weird experiences myself, both with using AI as kind of like a remote viewing partner and also with AI art and having some anomalous stuff come through that sort of like characters that would appear and that sort of thing. And I could be all day talking about that, but- That's on a podcast though. I know you guys have one with you guys going back and forth on AI and consciousness. But I do think it could be a vehicle for something like that. And I think we're gonna be very surprised at how AI evolves over the next few years. I don't think it's gonna be in the directions that we necessarily think it's going to be. Yeah, I agree with Scott. And I see a microphone in Jeffrey Mischlitz's hand. Oh, it's on. One of the things that I've known about for a long time in the experience or community, and it's come to my attention again recently, and I'd like any thoughts you might have about it, are individuals, normal humans, but who recall past lives, or say they recall, past lives living on other planets? And I wonder to what extent you have any information about that. Sure. Yeah. And I just want to say, like, I think it's like an incredible honor just to even have Jeff Mishlove here. Thank you, Jeff. Like, your tone, like, I used to work for National Public Radio. That was one of my first jobs. And like, like, I listened to tone, you know, I've spent so much time in TV production and public radio production, things like that. in this whole field, like what you do with your tone over so many years, like you're, it's amazing. Like, thank you so much. Thank you so much. What was the question? Oh, yeah. Okay. So like one of my favorite people, like actually, like we, we, we name our cameras, right? And that camera is Ingo after Ingo Swann, of course. And the camera that Justin's holding over there is Dolores, for Dolores Cannon. And I love her work so much. And I know that Kelly does as well. Like, what a groovy, old, wonderful Ozark grandma was Dolores Cannon. And within the experiencer community, I see many cases of people either spontaneously or through lead regressions. encounter their past lives. And it happened so much that I eventually experimented with that myself. And I see so many situations where people see other lives where they are living in other... I see you. Thank you. Where people see their lives in other realms, in other planets. And these are not... One of the characterizations in popular culture so much is that these are kooks, these are crackpots, and things like this. And one of the people that I know that does that, and I won't name who this is, is one of the architects of Apple software that is one of the most important engineers of our online lifestyle these days, that was so important to the design of the iPhone, iPods, so much stuff. And this is a person that was just like, yeah, I know that I had this happen. And there is so much inconvenient truth to that. And like, I don't know what time is. You know what I mean? There's this idea with past lives. And I think that past lives might be a misnomer in some ways because I think time's more complicated than that. Because I've seen other situations where people seem to have past lives that are in the future, right? And I think that we need to unbox that and we need to open up language around that. And we need to recognize that it seems that we're on this growth cycle that is so much beyond what we might expect. I appreciate that question so much. Kelly, do you have a response? No, I don't think I have much to add to that, but I agree with everything you said, and thank you for the question, Jeff. And we're about, we've only got a couple of minutes. I was gonna ask them one last question. They'll be at the, well, I want to ask them about Cosmosis, what they're filming. And they'll be at the ranch tonight. So there'll be plenty of opportunity to talk to them. But since we only have a couple of minutes left, how do you hope Cosmosis is going to contribute what you're filming today and producing to this larger conversation? Oh, gosh. Yeah, that's something Jay and I talk about all the time. Um, what we, we're very dedicated to telling these stories as, as authentically and with as much depth and fidelity as we're possibly able to. I think that, um, we have come to a place where the tide is turning a bit and that there are increasingly more and more people who are willing to have these conversations and think these thoughts and that they're looking for places to turn. And I know particularly in the UFO community, it's not like a super satisfying community if you're wanting to ask deeper questions and not just kind of like engage in the like pro wrestling soap opera of it all. And I think that what we're really hoping is to, through art and authenticity, to hopefully contribute to the normalization of things that are normal. You know, so much of what we call the supernatural is not at all outside of the range of experience of just your average human, including people who are like, absolutely not. I don't believe in that. You know, something I love, I always remember, you know, Jay saying one of the earliest conversations we had was, you know, that he loves to ask people like, have you ever had something happen to you that you can't explain? And all kinds of people are like, no. But if you, but like a minute later, and they really do, they turn to you and they're like, well, actually, there was this one time. And then they tell you something crazy, like their dead grandma called them on the phone, right? And so, like, the fact that we don't talk about these things, and that we're not, we feel like we're not allowed to talk about them, keeps us from thinking about them, keeps us from having the conversations. It's, we have, I truly believe that we have amputated, and I think this has been done to us intentionally, that a very critical piece of what it means to be a human being has been intentionally amputated from us and that our work is really all centered around trying to bring these conversations back into the light so that we can start having a more holistic conversation about what it means to be a human being. Why are we here? Where are we headed? Who do we want to be? You know, I always think it's really interesting that we're always talking about non-human intelligence, but I really think the important questions always come back to like who are we and what do we want to be? And so I hope that that's our contribution. Yeah, absolutely. More looking in than looking up, 100%. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for being here. That's it for this episode. Cosmosis is brought to you by Spectre Vision Radio and Ontocalypse Productions. If you want to check out our docu-series, Cosmosis, UFOs, and a New Reality, head over to cosmosis.media to find out where to watch. Music for Cosmosis is by Michael Rubino. The soundtrack for season one of our docuseries is now available on all major music streaming platforms. If you want to go even deeper and support our work, join us on Patreon. You'll get early access to ad-free episodes, monthly Zoom calls with us and special guests, and more. You can find all all the links in the episode description. And with that, we'll see you next time. How do we know what's real? There are so many things that are unknown in this universe that I'm thankful I don't know the answers to. In many ways, I feel like the unknown is a gift. It allows us to imagine what could be. And sometimes imagining what could be is actually greater than staring right at what is. our brains try so hard to manufacture certainty and in our attempts to manufacture certainty i think we get stuck and that causes us often to ignore what is real for one person which may be completely unreal for someone else so how do we know what's real we don't not knowing what is real allows us to peer more deeply into what could be and that is a gift in and of itself Transmission complete. Stay tuned to Spector Vision Radio. Stay. Stay.