The Woman Who Outsmarted the Nazis and Saved Europe's Art

This is Women Road Warriors with Shelly Johnson and Cassie Ticcaro from the corporate office to the cab of a truck. They're here to inspire and empower women in all professions. So gear down, sit back and enjoy. Welcome. We're an award-winning show dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights. No topics off limits on our show. We Power Women on the Road to Success with expert and celebrity interviews and information you need. I'm Shelly. And I'm Cassie. There are so many unsung heroes from World War II and the roles women had are often downplayed or simply forgotten. Award-winning journalist Michelle Young was not about to let that happen with a key hero named Rose Vallon. She's documented her major efforts in her book The Art Spy, the extraordinary untold tale of World War II resistance hero Rose Vallon. The art spy tells the astonishing true story of Rose, a quiet Paris museum curator who became an unlikely World War II resistance heroine. While the Nazis used her museum to juke the palm as their headquarters for art theft, Rose secretly spied on them, risking her life to record details of thousands of stolen works bound for Hitler's planned super museum, the Führer Museum. Armed with bravery, intelligence, and sheer determination, Rose passed critical information to the resistance, helped safeguard Europe's cultural treasures, and even stood her ground during the liberation of Paris. Her story long overlooked finally gets sweeping exposure it deserves in Michelle's book. Readers weekly set in their review that readers will relish this riveting tale of a clever war hero playing the long game against bumbling fascists. Michelle's work is nothing short of compelling. She's a graduate of Harvard College in the history of art and architecture and holds a master's from Columbia University's Graduate School of Architecture, Planning, and Preservation, where she's also a professor of architecture. Her work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, and the Forward, among others. She's the founder of the publication Untap New York. Kathy and I were captivated, so we invited Michelle on the show. Welcome, Michelle. Thank you for being with us. Thanks so much for having me on your show. We are so honored. Michelle, your book is not only a wonderful tribute to Rose, but a riveting tale of espionage and intrigue that brings Rose to life for readers. Her sacrifices and risks were crucial in saving and recovering much of Europe's stolen art. It's still helping in recovery efforts today. I understand many of her contributions were largely forgotten. What motivated you to write about her? Well, no exaggeration to say that I was reading pretty much exclusively World War II books, because in my real job, the day job, I was writing and researching about New York City, it's architecture, urban planning. So I really wanted to do something that wasn't triggering, that would pique my interest. And my family's history is rooted in World War II. My grandfather survived the atomic bomb in Hiroshima as a Taiwanese student. And then I married someone French, so I started digging into World War II European history as well and came across her story. And like many other female stories, as you mentioned, was astounded that there was not much about her out there at all and no full length English book in the trade press about her in America. Wow! And she played such a vital role and still does, long after her death. I was reading that she remained under-recognized for decades, overshadowed by the mostly male monuments men. That's correct. I mean, I think that's the story of women in World War II in general and the fact that a lot of people are interested in the warfare, the battles, and that's the general dominant narrative about World War II. But behind the scenes, a lot of the people who enabled those battles to happen and the war to be fought on so many fronts were women. She was so brave. And I'm sure this is not something she ever anticipated doing in her life. You go into her early life as well as some of her personal life and all of that. She took such big risks. She was in serious danger in everything she was doing. Could you give us a summary or synopsis of who Rose was and how all of this began? Yes. So her early life, she is born in 1898 in a very small countryside village southeast of Lyon, about 40 miles. It's a very sheltered, conservative, religious area. But she displays very early talents in the arts and in her studies. And her mother, unlike a lot of other women of this generation, really fought to have her educated. So applied for scholarships for her to go to better and better schools. She makes her way up, wins many awards. And after kind of being at the top schools in the region, ends up at the École du Bozox in Paris, where all the major artists have studied. She not only does that, but she gets what's the equivalent of multiple graduate degrees at the same time at the École du Louvre, at the Sorbonne and other schools. So I say that she was a roaring twenties overachiever. And there was very few, if not any female art historians more educated than she was. But she has a hard time finding a job after her education. This is due to her class and other factors. She has a nemesis that she encounters who finds her too modern. He unfortunately is head of the Louvre and head of her school where she's writing her thesis, the École du Louvre. And so she takes an unpaid secretarial job at the Jutpou Museum, which is a modern art museum next to the Louvre. It's part of the French national museums, but not extremely prestigious in terms of a workplace. And but she she she takes this unpaid job, fights to become an unpaid curatorial member that takes her four years. And at that point of a few years later is when World War Two breaks out. And she's an integral part to the protection of art in World War Two, the movement of art from the museums to the Louvre Valley out of harm's way. And then in the end of 1940, the Nazis have requisitioned the museum. She's in the Jutpoum for their own uses to transit looted art through to document, move and then eventually ship out of France. Wow. Wow. That's all I got to say. Oh, she lay. She was seriously brave. I mean, obviously she was fighting sexism as well as the terrible Nazis who were processing stolen art, requisitioning it to take it to this super museum that Hitler wanted, which was a terrible, terrible thing. I mean, this had to put her in a very precarious spot. And of course, then she became part of the French resistance, which I don't imagine she ever saw in her future. No, I don't think so. But in many ways, I think her whole life experience really prepared her for that. She had been used to being under the radar, concealing her where she came from. One of the really telling things was when I heard one of the rare interviews she did that we have in audio and my husband said right away, she talks exactly like my grandfather and his grandfather was very, very high up in the civil service and also served in World War Two. And there was a way of speaking that indicated in France that you were educated. And so even though she doesn't come from this world, she learned to play that part. And that is exactly what she pulled from when she was a resistance spy in the museum. At great danger. And I think you asked before kind of what, how in harm's way was she? And so to give some color on that, every day she was working right under the noses of some of the most powerful Nazis in Paris. They were sent there, but also having a grand time stealing everything they could. They were stealing for the Third Reich, but then also stealing for themselves. And her job initially was just to figure out what's going on in this museum. Who are the key players? And you can see in her notes, she's listening phonetically to the German. She has a secret superpower in that her partner, a woman named Joyce here, whom she ends up being with for her whole life, 50 years, is actually half German. This woman grew up in, partially in Britain where she was born and in Germany and has helped Rose learn German. And then over time, she's stealing documents, whether they're papers thrown out in the waste basket or the negatives of photographs that they've taken of the art. And, you know, because, because they're, they're Nazis out of central casting, they're also taking what we would call selfies today and posing in front of stolen art and stuff. So she ends up having this amazing record of everything that's gone on, the art that's stolen and who these people are, their names and their photographs. And that's eventually what she passes on to the monuments men or what we call the monuments men and becomes a monuments officer herself after the war. Wow. All I can say is bravo to her. Yes. Yeah. When I read these books, I often think, what would I have done? And that's really what motivates me because I think, again, we can imagine what we might do, but here's what someone really decided. And it's always very inspiring. In the end, I realized that I would be no good spy. I don't have the poker face for it, but, but Rose really did. And, and you can see that from the way she writes and how other people talk about her. She wasn't always the person, the people pleasing room person, sorry, in the room at all. And it's interesting because she was not trained to be this. So she had to kind of play it by ear, if you will, and learn to be very, very secretive and observant. And of course, not be a threat, because obviously I'm sure that the Nazis were constantly looking. The amount of stress this woman had to have every single day, every single minute of the day, going to work. Imagine. Yeah. And then adding to that, she lived with her partner Joyce here, who was, that was very taboo at the time. He was criminalized under Vichy France, correct? That's correct. And also under German law, heterosexuality was, was legal, really just for men, but they, they harassed lesbian communities all the time. So this wouldn't have been something she would want out in the public. And she didn't even want it when France wasn't occupied. She kept that a secret through the 1930s when they were living together. And so one of the most striking things that I discovered was when the Nazis took over her museum, just a month later, Joyce is actually arrested by the Germans with the help of the French police and interned in the east of France. And Rose has no idea where she is. Joyce worked for the U.S. embassy. They also had no idea where she was. So one can imagine very easily that stress that you're describing. So not just being a spy and could be caught anytime, but not knowing where the love of your life is. Yes. Well, wasn't here considered an enemy alien? Yeah, that's correct. And this is one of the real untold stories of World War Two that I discovered is all the British and anyone who was part of the Allied nationality was considered an enemy alien under occupied French, occupied France. And so they were allowed to stay and were termed, they were on parole. And so they had to go to the commandant tour every day and sign their name and give their address. And so this is exactly how the Germans knew where they were when they decided it's time to round them up and imprison them. And so they went door to door, starting at five thirty in the morning, knocking and shining flashlights in their faces. So Joyce was living with Rose at this time. And so they would have they would have been jolted from their sleep and she would have been taken. And how long did Rose endure all of that? How many years? So she was undercover for almost four years. Well, that would be a lifetime with that kind of stress. You know, as an author myself, and I could just almost feel the energy in you as you're discovering this and just wanting to write about it. Oh my God, how come this hasn't been written about before? And it's so enthralling. Yeah, I yes, this is exactly what I felt. And I had a hunch, maybe as a woman of the same sex as Rose. But, you know, just knowing that I bet her story is even crazier. That was just my feeling. And that's why I focus this book primarily only on the five years of World War Two in Europe and the time that she was in the war. And I went into it hoping I would find enough kind of believing that I would. And I did in the end, you know, I filled in those holes in her timeline, figured out what happened to her, for example, when the Germans arrived and in Paris at the gates and what happened to her. It was a harrowing journey of her escape out of Paris during that time. And hopefully I've brought her to life and really given her the due that that she's been owed. Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Dean Michael, the tax doctor here. I have one question for you. Do you want to stop worrying about the IRS? If the answer is yes, then look no further. I've been around for years. I've helped countless people across the country and my success rate speaks for itself. So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems. What are you waiting for? If you owe more than $10,000 of the IRS or haven't filed in years, call me now at 888-557-4020 or go to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free consultation and get your life back. Industry movement, Trucking Moves America Forward is telling the story of the industry. Our safety champions, the women of trucking, independent contractors, the next generation of truckers and more help us promote the best of our industry. Share your story and what you love about trucking. Share images of a moment you're proud of and join us on social media. Learn more at truckingmovesamerica.com. Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Takarov. If you're enjoying this informative episode of Women Road Warriors, I wanted to mention Kathy and I explore all kinds of topics that will power you on the road to success. We feature a lot of expert interviews. Plus, we feature celebrities and women who've been trailblazers. Please check out our podcast at womenroadwarriors.com and click on our episodes page. We're also available wherever you listen to podcasts on all the major podcast channels like Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon Music, Audible, you name it. Check us out and bookmark our podcast. Also, don't forget to follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn, YouTube and other sites. And tell others about us. We want to help as many women as possible. You know, history books often gloss over the quiet heroes, especially the women who shaped the course of World War II. Award-winning journalist Michelle Young has made sure one of those stories won't be forgotten. Her book, The Art Spy, the extraordinary untold tale of World War II resistance hero Rose Venant, uncovers the astonishing true tale of Rose, a seemingly unassuming curator at the Jus de Pomp Museum in Paris. When the Nazis turned her museum into a headquarters for art theft, she risked everything. Secretly spying, she recorded the details of thousands of stolen masterpieces bound for Hitler's planned Führer Museum. With intelligence, bravery and sheer determination, she passed priceless information to the resistance, safeguarded Europe's cultural treasures and even stood her ground during the liberation of Paris. Her work is still uncovering artwork today. Publishers Weekly calls Michelle's book a riveting tale of a clever war hero playing the long game against bumbling fascists. Michelle, besides the compelling storyline, you really do bring Rose in history to life. When we read about history, we don't really know about the people, we know their names, we know the dates. But what makes it interesting is these are people and you can actually delve into their lives and you give the readers the ability to actually step into Rose's life and really feel the fear and really see the challenges that she had and how she evolved as a protagonist. She was a very innovative woman. She's really amazing. Yeah, I think she was for sure brilliant. And even the way she processed information was amazing to me, right? Because she's just like taking all these notes, but she's not even doing it in the museum because she's prevented from taking notes. But conveniently, her other superpower is that she has near photographic memory. Wow. So these aren't just like a random name. It's who the what addresses have this has this art been stolen from? Who does it belong to? What are the shipping manifests, the numbers of the train cars that these this art is going to? She's doing that all at home. And then occasionally, if she's able to steal some documents that can enable her. So I really I describe her as having a brain like a computer because she kept all of that organized in her head and then and that's amazing. Put it down. Yeah. That's incredible. Oh, and especially under that kind of pressure to remember all of that and to catalog it in your head. Oh, my good. Yeah, there was just, I think, two moments in the book where I allowed some modern day terminology to seep into the book, which I try not to because you want to be immersed and you want to be with Rose. It's a narrative nonfiction. So must read like a thriller and everything is true. But there were two phrases. So one was describing her as a overachiever because I think that's really what described her education when I looked at it. And then in this aspect of her brain, I described it as as like a computer because I really wanted readers to understand the extent of which she was so unique and so brilliant. How involved is it to be a curator? I would think that the details are just overwhelming and she's storing all of this in her head. Yeah. And they figure out where all of the artwork went. It's great that you bring that up because there was a line in one of her either one of her letters or her memoir where she said, basically in the war, I did what I was trained to do to make lists, lists, lists and lists. And of course, she had she had more skills beyond that, but she was such an accomplished academic curator. And in terms of the things she would be doing would be looking for new art to acquire, figuring out how to hang them in the museum, what should be on the permanent display, what should not be and making lists to prepare for war. And then also writing up exhibition catalogs, the general catalog of the whole collection of the museum. So a real varied job description. And then what kind of made her under the radar for the Germans was they thought that she was just pretty much like a custodian because she also knew how the building worked, how the fire system works, how the the electrical system works. And she was liaison with the French guards that already worked there. And so they kind of dismissed her as this lowly custodian slash secretary. And then of course, she underplayed what she knew. So do you think that being a woman was an advantage at that point because she was more easily dismissed? Yes. So throughout World War Two, women were always overlooked. And they couldn't really believe that they would be doing something. You know, against the regime or anything. But she was particularly under overlooked because there were other women in the museum. They were all either German art historians that were sent there to catalog all the stolen art or they were German secretaries. And these were very prepped, preempt women. There was a lot of intrigue and affairs going on between the German art historians and the German secretaries. And she was very plain. She was never really interested in wearing dresses and dressing up, which was a contrast to her partner Joyce, who was dropped at Gorgeous, really looked like a movie star. So we know that it wasn't that Rose didn't have the ability to dress up. It just wasn't in her personality. So as a result, the Germans really overlooked her. There were too many other women simpering around. There was an example of one woman who actually walked around the museum in her nightgown. So there was a lot to be distracted by. That's really funny. I sure hope they make a movie out of this. All right, I know. This would be fascinating and in its educational, it brings history to life and people really need to know how many people played a role in defeating the Nazis. And some of the terrible, well, we already know the terrible things they did. But the way they impacted the art world, it was a travesty, what they did. In terms of art, what are some of the famous pieces? I mean, they've really absconded with some of phenomenal historical works of art. What are some of the pieces that the Nazis ran off with? Yeah, so the Nazis were primarily interested in what we called the old masters. So painters like Vermeer and Rembrandt and Hans Holbein, because that's the art that Hitler understood. And it also fell under the kind of general term as being dramatic in origin. And so they were avidly collecting this. But when they looted art collections and they came into France with already a list of everything they wanted to steal, including the 15 major art galleries, which were predominantly owned by Jewish gallery owners. And so when they would they took commando units and really liquidated all these art galleries wholesale. So they would come back with the kind of art that Hitler wanted, but also art that they didn't really know what to do with. That was modern art like Picasso's, Matisse and Brack. And so those kind of got separated and usually the art that would move out of France and be exported back to Germany would be those old masters paintings. So I would I'll give you painting number one that they were looking for was called the Astronomer by Vermeer. And it had been part of the Rothschild family, the French Rothschild family for centuries. And so this was number one on their list. And the very eerie thing is when you look at the German documents that were made in this museum, it is labeled R one, Rothschild one, the first painting to come through the Jodhpom Museum to be cataloged. And so that was the big one. But there was really paintings by anyone, you know, van Gogh, Monet, all that stuff was coming through. And then between kind of the van Gogh, Monet era and the modern art of that time period, which includes the Picasso's and Legers and Bracks and Matisse, those they were trying to figure out what to do with. And so they ended up, you know, selling a lot, exchanging a lot, burning a lot. And Rose witnesses the burning of five hundred of these modern paintings in the courtyard of the museum in July 1943. That had to break her heart. Yeah. When you think of the loss of all of that, I mean, the brilliance that just went up in smoke. Yeah. She found all of this very painful. She, you know, I think that she was motivated not because she just loved kind of art itself, but what it represented for the culture of France and also for her. It was her ticket out of where she came from. So beauty to her was kind of paramount. And she writes in the opening of her memoir that she did this to save a little of the beauty of the world. So you're right. This was an extremely painful moment for her to witness, to document. And it really defined a great part of the rest of her life, because when she wrote about this after the war, it was kind of immediately questioned. And that has entered into kind of present day discussion about Rose Vallant. So I knew if I wanted to tell the story from her perspective, I would need to know whether this was true or not and definitively true or not. And so over the course of the four years I worked on this book, I hoped I would find some documents, a smoking gun, right? And one day I found in the back of a box in the diplomatic archives in France, four notarized, handwritten signed documents by the guards who worked in the museums and in great, great detail. Not just this event happened, and I signed my name, but down to I was ordered by the German guards to light the bonfire. Incredible detail that ended up informing that chapter of the book. But the thing I was most gratified about was to be able to correct the record of something she felt so strongly about. I read so many letters of her trying to ask people if they had documents, evidence, things she could use to prove this event was true. Bravo to you for finding this. Thank you. Yes. So kidding. You gave her the credit that she deserved and reinstated her credibility. Yes. Yes. You know, it always shocked me that we trust her for all these things. Like if you have a painting that needs to be restituted and whether it's being sold at Christie's or wherever, you the provenance researchers go to France to consult her documents. And oftentimes there's roses documents are the only proof that exists. That an art was looted by the Nazis. So, you know, her documents underscore deals that are hundreds of millions of dollars today. And why is this questioned? And you know, the question also in my mind, if a man had said this, would it have been questioned? And one of the amazing things is when I went back to check, OK, where does this doubt come from? Because that's really important when you're researching things. Try to trace back where a myth or conspiracy theory or falsehood comes from. You got to go to the beginning. And what I realized was that it was the men who the Nazis in the museum who came out to a German newspaper in the 1960s to say what Rose is saying is false. There was not there was no fire. And then they add, of course, if it did happen, it was Rose who did it. So it's it's classic. It's it's denied to flag. Yeah. And so and I think you can do that to marginalize communities of people more easily than someone that's in the dominant narrative. Very, very true. Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Dean Michael, the tax doctor here. I have one question for you. Do you want to stop worrying about the IRS? If the answer is yes, then look no further. I've been around for years. I've helped countless people across the country and my success rate speaks for itself. So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems. What are you waiting for? If you owe more than $10,000 of the IRS or haven't filed in years, call me now at 888-557-4020 or go to my tax help. Md.com for a free consultation and get your life back. Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson at Cathy Takarov. History often overlooks the women who changed its course, but journalist Michelle Young refuses to let that happen. In her new book, The Art Spy, the extraordinary untold tale of World War II resistance hero Rose Vellant, she reveals how one quiet Paris museum curator became a force of defiance against the Nazis. When Hitler's army commandeered the Jou de Paul Museum as their headquarters for art theft, Rose was right there, watching, listening and recording every detail. Day after day, she risked her life to keep track of thousands of masterpieces. What seemed like routine notes were actually lifelines of intelligence that she funneled to the French resistance. Her courage safeguarded priceless cultural treasures and helped preserve Europe's heritage. And when Paris was finally liberated, Rose didn't step aside. She stood firm to ensure stolen art could be reclaimed. Michelle's book is truly incredible and a wonderful tribute to Rose. Michelle, Rose went through so much. In the liberation of Paris, she also learned the Nazis had orders to neutralize the museum and make her disappear. That had to have been absolutely terrifying. I mean, she'd been through all of this and then she was facing that too. Yes, you're right. And these words are translations of what she said and what she learned. So yes, the orders to neutralize the museum and use it as a defense against all the headquarters of the Germans, which were holed up in the hotels along the Riveau-les next to the Louvre. So her museum was in the Toulouse across from the commander, the German commander of Paris. So basically it was said, if put in the Louvre, so basically it was said, if push comes to shove, you can destroy this museum as a means to protect everyone else behind it. And at the same time, the people, the Germans working in her museum begin to suspect her near the end. And they've decided that regardless, even if she's a spy or not, she knows too much because she was here the whole time. And so one Nazi named Kurt Womber gives an order to ideally bring her to the border, cross the border and then liquidate her. That's the term that was used. So she doesn't know about this order until after the war, it comes out in a war tribunal against the men in the museum. But it's, of course, harrowing to just be in the final battle. She's actually there with all the soldiers fighting. She's in this museum during those last days. And then not only does she survive that, then she becomes a suspect for collaboration as Paris is being liberated. And the mob breaks into her museum, breaks the windows, breaks the locks, and she's put at gunpoint. And I won't give away what happens, but it's like at kind of every turn of the war, she's in extremely precarious conditions and situations. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. She probably never felt safe. Not that anyone did with the Nazi occupations, but I mean, she was right in the thick of it. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting that our common conception of a spy is someone in the field, probably blowing up trains. And it's arguably, of course, very dangerous. But I think it's equally dangerous to have been working undercover under the nose of these Nazis every day of the war. And you're right, the pressure and stress that was under. And one of the most telling things I found was an interview that she did actually with Elle magazine around the time that a book, sorry, a movie came out based on a chapter for book about the last train of art. She was trying to stop from leaving France. There are a thousand paintings on it. And she's interviewed on the set of this movie called The Train by Bert Lancaster. And they film it inside the Jodhpaw Museum. So the museum that she had worked for that she was spying inside and they've they've made it look like it was during the war. And there are German soldiers, obviously. These are actors, but they're wearing the uniforms. They have the black boots and the guns. They're cocking their guns. And for the first time, she kind of loses it. And she she kind of she flees the museum. And she comes back the next day to talk to the journalist and says, I who am normally so calm, I don't know what happened. I couldn't even find the metro, the subway. And that was 20 years after. So she had kept that with her until that moment when she was confronted with it to her face for the first time again. Wow. Well, her work was invaluable. She certainly passed all of this information on to the French resistance at great risk to herself. And her meticulous records are still being used today and recovering art that's still missing. Am I correct? That's right. Yes. So it's estimated about 100,000 works of art are still missing. The Nazis took about 650,000 works of art. That's of what we know. Crazy. I know. It was a real military operation all the time. And that's what we know. And that's what they documented and what we were able to figure out. So undoubtedly much more than that. And so looted art is coming to light all the time. And the laws in Europe were such that for the post war period, if something was in your possession for 30 years and you could prove that you had got it kind of you had clean hands. So it was pretty easy to kind of fudge that you gave it to somebody else for safekeeping or such. It was now that person's. And so that's why you see a lot of art. Looted art emerged in the 70s and get bought before we had more stringent policies about the sale of looted art. It's still probably not strong enough. But now since the 90s, there had been at least frameworks developed between nations about how to deal with it. And so 70s, they get sold. They disappear for another generation. And now they're coming to light again. And I don't know if you saw the news, but a woman in Argentina put her house up for sale and in one of the photographs was a painting that was looted in World War Two. And it created like an international scandal and story that people have been riveted and following. And that's again, because the next generation is starting to get older and selling their property. So we will be seeing a lot more looted art come to market or be discovered. Wow. Yeah. And that's where Rose's work is that much more valuable because we need to have that record. She is saving history in so many ways. She made history. She's saving history. It was just a travesty, what the Nazis did all the way across the board. And I can only imagine you said way over a hundred thousand works of art that are still missing. It could be anywhere. Yes. Yes. I mean, there are a lot like clean Swiss bank vaults. One of the men, the Nazis who worked in the museum with Rose Brunelosa, a real nemesis of hers. She's the one that was on trial in France after the war. And she actually served as his interrogating witness, which is again, yet another accolade for Rose Vellant. And when he died, they found all sorts of looted art and impressionist paintings in his in his bank vault in Switzerland. And he had said to his death that he didn't steal anything. He was just a lowly Nazi following orders. So, you know, there's going to be a lot more of that. Sure. Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Dean Michael, the tax doctor here. I have one question for you. Do you want to stop worrying about the IRS? If the answer is yes, then look no further. I've been around for years. I've helped countless people across the country and my success rate speaks for itself. So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems. What are you waiting for? If you owe more than $10,000 of the IRS or haven't filed in years, call me now at 888-557-4020 or go to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free consultation and get your life back. Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Toccaro. Not all heroes wore uniforms in World War II. Some worked quietly in the shadows and one of them was a woman you may never have heard of. Her name was Rose Vonneau, a Paris museum curator who fooled the Nazis right under their noses. When Hitler's troops took over her museum, turning it into their hub for stolen art, Rose played the part of the Meek staffer. But in reality, she was risking her life every day, scribbling down secret notes on thousands of masterpieces headed for Hitler's so-called Fjällermuseum. Those notes weren't just lists, they were weapons. Rose passed the information to the Resistance, helping protect Europe's cultural soul. She didn't always get her due credit for all the work she did, but she single-handedly is responsible for the continued recovery of Europe's looted masterpieces. Award-winning journalist Michelle Young brings Rose's remarkable story to life in her book, The Art Spy, the extraordinary untold tale of World War II Resistance hero Rose Vonneau. It's gripping, it's inspiring, and it proves that sometimes, the quietest voices are the ones that change history. Michelle, you're setting the record straight with this book. Thank you. This is a tribute that Rose truly deserved, and I think it's also going to bring awareness to people of the massive roles women played on the sideline or in the background in World War II. And the roles women have played throughout history. Really? Yes, and I think the idea that I love people to take away with is that really anybody can be a hero. Everyone has a role they can play, and in dire circumstances like war, women get the opportunity to play some of those roles because of the change in dynamics. Men often go off to fight, so women are doing other things that they were not doing before. So, yes, it was not just Rose in the museums of France. There were many other female curators working for the Resistance. Some of them were arrested, some survived the war. So, a lot of amazing stories. I didn't have an opportunity to talk about all of them, but I tried to fit them in in the book where I could, and you follow a few of these very, very brave women as well. Well, the way you weave everything together keeps a reader on his or her, the edge of those seats. And this is good. And I think that's also when we studied history in school, a lot of times it was kind of boring. If we could only bring the people to life, then you can relate to it. You make it relatable. Yes, and I also came into the genre as a fan. I was just a big reader of these kind of books, and that's what I wanted to achieve here with the Art Spy and with Rose is that, yes, her life is exciting, but we can tell history in boring ways, or we can tell them in exciting ways. And both can be all based on facts and all true. I think this book would be wonderful to feature in schools. Yes, I would love that. Yeah. Well, first of all, I don't think any of the students are going to be bored. Yeah. They're certainly going to get a really good perspective of learning about art, learning about what it takes to curate art, all of the massive detail that's required. And then they learn about history and they learn firsthand, essentially, through the protagonist, Rose, what it was like to go through all of these things during the occupation of the Nazis. And there's so many elements here. I agree with Kathy. This would make a wonderful movie. It would. I see it. It's like, oh my God, I'm just totally captivated. Oh, thank you. Yeah, looking into life in Paris before the war, life in Paris in the war, all of that was so exciting, so visual and vibrant and really a joy to research and put to put to paper. So where can people find the book? Yes, well, it's everywhere. Ideally, you can buy it from your local bookstores, but it's also on Barnes & Noble and Amazon and my website, MichelleYoungWriter.com. You can get an autographed copy, dedicated copy. And yes, please, or at your local library. And it's the Art Spy, the extraordinary untold tale of World War Two resistance hero, Rose Bunlow. I just love this and I love the painstaking effort you went to to to write this. How much research did you have to do? I mean, there's a lot here. Yeah, so the book took me four years, the really three years of the active, active researching and writing. And I went all over the world. So France, many, many times I worked with Rose Valon's family, with her partner, Joyce Heer's family, a lot of archives. She left a lot of papers behind. So whether they were with the French museums or the Diplomatic Archive, because she was part of the Diplomatic Corps after the war, or other archives of her materials that came through her family and her hometown, but also sources in England and Germany, even Lafayette, where she won an award for her curatorial work, I was tracking all of these down. I'm the kind of person that is not satisfied with one end of a letter. I need the other side, that kind of thing. So I was really, really relentless and had many, many threads going on at the same time, felt a little bit like Rose, kind of keeping track of lots of things and hoping they would all come together at some point. I bet it was a bit overwhelming. You weren't wondering where the story was going to go and how to piece it all together. I mean, it really is kind of like playing a private detective. Yeah. I mean, some people ask me, did you have a board on your wall like a detective movies? I don't know. But I spread out all over my very large dining table and during the really complicated portions where I needed to understand, either to process the voluminous amount of research or look at a timeline and understand how it might all come together with so many different accounts. I had stacks and index cards and all of that. So it was on a table, not on the wall, but it was pretty similar. That was an undertaking. No doubt about it. That's impressive. Very impressive. And yes, like Shelley said, thank you for taking the time and doing everything that you did to make this come to life. Thank you. And thank you for reading the book. Oh, absolutely. Do you have any other projects that you have any offering? Well, yeah, I had many stories that I didn't have an opportunity to write about through this book, so I have a bunch of things. But I'm working on something now that's more modern day, true crime. I can't say what it is, but I have a personal connection to it. So I'm working on that to see what legs it has. And I think I hope after that I'll come back to World War Two and tell some of these lesser known stories again. You certainly have a very interesting life, not only being a writer, but you're also a professor and you get to travel the world. Yeah. When do you have time to sleep? I mean, this is really. Well, sleep is very important to me. I was never one of those people that pulled all nighters. So as a result, I have to be very, very efficient when I'm working. And and then for fun, I definitely watch a lot of TV. I just finished another World War Two series. So do you also watch true crime at all? I do. I do. And listen to podcasts. Yeah. Well, you know, that it gives you perspective and as a writer, you have to pull from so many different things to really bring things to life. Yeah. And I've been reading a real variety of books. Right now I'm reading a book called Wild for Austin. And it's about Jane Austen's Wild Side. Oh, yeah. By Devani Looser, Jane Austen academic professor, real expert on Jane Austen. And it is such a great read, so fun and so different than what I normally read, although, although I'm a big Jane Austen fan. So that's kind of why I'm reading the book. We don't think of her as wild. Exactly. Yeah. Very interesting. We just have a maybe a couple of minutes here. What did you find the most interesting about Rose? I think it was how reticent she was about talking about herself, about sharing her private life. So this was very interesting, but also a big challenge, because all the accounts and the attempts to look through her to tell her story before, I felt we're a little missing on the human side of who she was. And it's easy to kind of talk about all her accolades. We didn't even mention that she's one of the most meddled women in World War Two. And but, you know, if I wanted to tell five years of her life, I really needed to understand who was this woman. And so as a result, I did such a wide swath of research. I read and reread her own writings. And then I was deciphering scribbled notes in her papers. And through all of that, I was able to kind of really understand exactly who she was. And sometimes it wasn't until like subsequent readings that I would see, oh, she's really being emotional here about what she's saying. It would come off initially as kind of matter of fact, but I would realize later because I knew her writing so well. And I think also just how iconoclastic she was, she was had a boy haircut in the 1920s. She talked about loving, wearing suits and pants. And then by the mid 1930s, she's living with her partner. All of that was really brave, really daring and contrary to the image that a lot of people had of her, which if you read some of the older articles, particularly in the 80s and stuff, it describes her as mousy, as timid. And that I really wanted to correct with this book, because from what I found in evidence, she was not timid whatsoever. There's one amazing scene where outside of the museum, they've built a tower and they've put a German soldier who's trained his rifle on them. This is in the last days before the liberation. And she decides that the only thing that can protect them and the two guards with her in the museum, male guards, is to open the door and put herself in the center so that he sees that there's a woman here. You know, you don't do that unless you have just this amazing level of his and bravery. Absolutely. Yeah. And good for you for correcting that because the other descriptors were very derogatory. Mousy. No, I'm not describing this woman as mousy. I think that there are a lot of men that would not have done what she did for that long of a period of time right in the thick of it. Yes. Yes. For sure. This is wonderful. Michelle, I am so glad that you took the effort to write all of this and bring Rose to life and really give us a perspective on what was involved. The art spy, the extraordinary untold tale of World War Two resistance hero, Rose Van Law, where can people find it again? Yes. Anywhere you buy books, your local bookstore, Barnes & Noble, Amazon Library, and my book tour continues in a very robust way all around the country. So I hope to see some of your listeners at some of my upcoming events. Wonderful. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Delightful and so intriguing and exciting. And I'm leaving this interview totally inspired for the day. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, both. I totally agree with the Amazon description of Michelle's book. In the spirit of hidden figures with the sweeping narrative of the rape of Europa, the art spy is an inspiration for us all. An extraordinary tale of courage in a time of violence. I highly recommend everyone go out and purchase this book by Michelle Young. It's extraordinary and a tribute to a tremendous woman. We hope you've enjoyed this latest episode. 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