‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 3 Rewatch (Part 2)

Hello! Welcome back to a much-anticipated House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That is Mallory Rubin. And even though the skies have opened up today and it is flooding in Los Angeles, and even though HBO dropped a House of the Dragon trailer on our heads this week, we are staying firm to our commitment to deliver to you Buffy Season 3 Part 2, long-awaited, right after this. All right. Molly Rubin. Yes. Reliable dog geyser person. Reliable dog geyser person. Just like Willow. Do you want to show for the folks who are watching this podcast? Yeah. Do you want to show them your shirt? Oh, yeah. Let's see. Got my water in the way here. Yeah. I've got my Sunnydale shirt. Hanukkah present from my husband. Wonderful stuff. I had the Giles shirt last go around. So my Buffy wardrobe is growing. Considered doing an entire pod with a Jansport backpack on my back. But it doesn't seem comfortable, but we do have them here with us today. We all have Jansports here today because you brought us gifts, Jansport gifts. As we say goodbye to high schools, as we say goodbye to Sunnydale High in the 90s. I'm glad you're representing the Razorbacks. You've got the canonical Sunnydale High red. I have a deeply non-canonical red on, but we're still honoring the spirit of Buffy. And her most iconic look ever happens in the finale of this season when we get the red leather pants and the black tank top. That is like the Buffy look. We're going to talk about all of that. But first, before we get into all of the Buffy goodness that is waiting for us. Yes. What else is going on in the feed right now? Just a few things. Oh, boy. Well, we are nearing the end of the wonderful season of television in the Night of the Seven Kingdoms. So we will be with CR, with Chris Ryan, for the season finale of Talk to Thrones on Sunday night, right after episode six of A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We're going to be back for Talk to Thrones in mere months because Hot D is coming in June. June! And then after Talk to Thrones on Sunday night, we will be back for our season finale deep dive on Tuesday evening as usual. And then we will be going through the House of the Dragon trailer next Wednesday. We'll probably hit it for a minute on Talk of Thrones. Just maybe like a favorite glimpse or takeaway for each of us. If you're like, TikTok, where is the House of the Dragon trailer deep dive? We've got a finale to cover. It's coming next week. Yeah. And we will do it. We'll turn the page and we'll look ahead to season three. We have pushed some plans off just so that we can cover the Hot D trailer. It's all happening. We are wrapping up the Buffy rewatch of season three. Yes. Season four, question mark? Who's to say? It'll come when it comes. I'm excited that I have to start watching season four soon. We're going to go to college. Really? It's going to be very exciting. But today we are covering Season 3, Episode 13, The Zeppo, through Episode 22, Graduation Day, Part 2. So if you're like, what about the rest of Season 3? We already did it. Let's write it in the feed. So that exists. All right. So can I hit you with some mailbag stuff really quickly before we get into it all? That would be great. Please. Several people, several of the bad babies, are very urgently want you to know Yeah. That Anthony Stewart head who plays Giles, have you heard of him? Was in a series of Nescafe Gold Blend commercials. Will you tell the Bad Babies that I'm a good friend and I made sure that you saw these? Early days when the lust, love and longing for Giles was in full bloom. You brought this to my attention. And so it's definitely one of those things where like it seemed familiar. I had clearly seen these on TV when I was younger. but it was a whole new journey of discovery now that giles is such a formative love in my life and uh part of what was really fun was you sent this on our group chat with mahoney and we all had not seen them yeah yeah i got to experience it and it's a powerful if you've never seen the nescafe gold blend commercials it's like a whole soap opera yes that unfolds unfolded over years many hairstyles of these nescafe commercials where these neighbors basically have a meet cute and go through the ups and downs of a relationship over coffee. You know, given Giles' canonical opinion on coffee reinforced in these episodes, it's an interesting twist. But sometimes you don't want to be soothed. Sometimes you want to be high-strung. Exactly. And you've got to have some coffee. How Will You Ever Thank Me, I'll Think, is something just one of the great moments in commercial history. So, very powerful. I'd recommend them to anybody who's not seen them. You know, if you don't have a friend like Joanna who brings them to your attention, then you have a podcast with Joanna to bring them to your attention. But I'm so glad that the bad babies really wanted to make sure, but please give me some credit. I, of course, showed Mallory the commercials. And it's a quick mailbag because we have a lot to get to. Jay wrote in to say, for the sake of brevity and not going off on tangents, I'll say that while Jo and her friends term of boob window, this is for Faith's very iconic shirt that she first appears in, term of boob window does the trick. I've always loved that my wife and her friends described their Faith Esquire as shirts from university as the early aughts as a peek-a-boob. no no he could boob pretty good excellent carlos liked it so you know once again sitting three and a half feet away from us far more comfortable territory we should hope though you will be talking about gels at length um i carlos also is a huge fan of of this back like he loves the season i think he loves the back half more than anything so i think this is like carlos is that right that this is like the best that buffy gets as far as you're concerned maybe season five all right that's Right, that's right. Okay. See, he's a pro. Always knows how to spin forward. Tease it forward. Keep it on going. All right. Should we go now to our snapshot? Let's do it. So Buffy season three, September 1998 to July 1999, with an asterisk, right? Because two episodes that crop up at the end of the season, Earshot and Graduation Day Part 2, were both postponed. because right around this time was when the Columbine High School shooting happened. For earshot, it was like the very same week. And we lived in a different time where this felt like a rare and shocking occurrence in our nation. Dare I say a better, more innocent time when we would take a pause for weeks at a time and consider what media we're consuming in proximity to this. But I like whenever I think about Buffy season three in 1999, I always think of this as just like a really, I don't know, impactful moment and collision of storytelling and the world. Where were you in 98 to 99? Middle school. Middle school. Yeah, I was I was 12, I guess. Born in 86. So if that checks out, I was in eighth grade. You're not a mathematician. Not a mathematician. Add it to the list. But yeah, so I had this was a surprise to me to learn this. Yeah. And to learn about the shifting of the episodes and to see where they fell in time. That's not something that I have any memory of being aware of in real time. But then to know it and then watch the episode for the first time, harrowing, obviously, given just the plot lines and aspects of the episodes that hinge around those events. But even the fact that, you know, it's incorporated into the dialogue, like it's, oh, this is borderline trendy at this point. And then, you know, you think of the fact that that episode had to be delayed and pulled. It's, yeah, I had no idea. Earshot was delayed all the way until the fall. Graduation Day Part 2. So Part 2 of the season finale was pushed into July, but it premiered elsewhere in the world. So it, like, existed. And torrents weren't very much a thing at the time, but they weren't not. So I was a babe in the woods and did not understand that that was available and possible. But certainly some people found pirated versions of the Buffy finale before it finally aired in the U.S. But that's just like an interesting fact. You were 12 at the time, around 12 at the time, if your math is correct. That means you were far away from your transition from high school into college. That's right. But having gone through that process, Mallory, do you have any notes or questions or comments or concerns for the way that our pals at Sunnydale High deal with the SATs, college graduation, admissions, et cetera, et cetera? I thought you were going to ask where was I in terms of my exposure to message boards and how would I have found out that the most important hookup in the history of television, Giles and Joyce, was in fact confirmed in earshot and presumably discussed on some corner of the Internet. I, like Carlos, love the stretch. Season three is my favorite season so far. I think what I said last pod in our first part of season three still holds. I think, you know, the highest highs of a couple of the episodes in season two, Innocence, Passion, etc., stand out on equal footing. But just start to finish overall, I think this season is extraordinary. And this back half was my favorite part as well, even though the front half of season three includes, I think, my favorite episodes of season three. this is a rare blight on an otherwise wonderful and historic text we talked last pod in the season three part one discussion about the astonishing reveal that Buffy character I love and admire had gotten a 1430 on her SATs a thing that frankly does not seem possible but let me tell you what's even less credible than that Buffy Summers, who had to beg her way back into high school, and then couldn't get a teacher to recommend. Couldn't find a teacher who knew her well, like, who even knew her and, like, could say for sure, you were in my class. Has, as far as I can tell, no extracurriculars. I mean, she's busy. We understand, but... Climbs out of windows in the middle of class. Yeah. Got into Northwestern. One of the best schools in the country. I was in tears from laughing so hard. I didn't think I would be able to, like, recover my focus. Just incredible stuff. The plot mechanics in general to get everybody toward a UC Sunnydale outcome, I respect and admire. Oh, yeah. You admire the hustle. That's great work. That's just great work. Classic Beverly Hills 90210. Cordelia's dad just wound up embroiled in a tax scandal, so she can't afford to go to other schools. She's, I guess, going to end up there, right? Xander thought he was going to get his rejection letter and crayon. Oz is like, guess what? They're typing them now. Everybody's got something new they've learned. Willow has her big epiphany that she wants to help the world and do it right here. Joyce having her moment of, I got to call up your aunt who lives in Chicago to tell her you might be heading to Northwestern. It's like, I just can't believe that was a real thing that happened. I do like the other Buffy, though, what it leads to, just the whole college admissions plot, which is like on the heels of, you know, something that I loved in the first half of season three was the I can't be just a person. I can't be helpless like that aspect of helpless. And the other side of this, like, I can't just be a slayer. I have to go be a person. I have to go to college. I might want to leave this town. I might want to get off the hell mouth. wonderful and in general the path toward graduation of a different sort rejecting the council, forging her own path, I just thought was like incredibly rewarding to watch as a coming of age story, so 1430 to Northwestern, absolutely not, everything else in a larger sense thematically just gorgeous. Great. This is wonderful. I did get a kick as I mentioned already out of the Xander Oxford Oxnard. Yeah. After Sean made that same real life moment with Sean on the hype draft. That was very, very satisfying. On the sort of like theme of identity, which we hit a lot in part one, because if we can stretch our minds back far enough to the season three premiere, there's the key moment in the season three premiere where an antagonist asks Buffy, like, who are you? And she says, for the first time, I'm Buffy the Vampire Slayer, right? But this question of who are you echoes throughout the whole season. And very key as a coming of age, as, you know, 18-year-olds on the cusp of a kind of adulthood. I would argue we still have more road to take before we become full-blown adults. But, you know, this is a key. I'm still working on it. I'm 39. The road goes ever on. You know what I mean? But your hair looks so good today. Thank you. I'm sorry. It's just like. Thank you. Stunning. Stunning. it's pouring rain outside so like we had to like we had to like go straight today oh it's beautiful carry on sorry that's the phrase you just had to get that on the record thank you um but uh this so this question of identity and these doubles these doppelgangers doppelganger land of course we will talk about uh in this stretch etc but these dual We need to give Carlos a mic for that one. Oh, yeah. He loves Vampire Willow. He sure does. It's true. But we need to talk about Wesley. Wesley Wyndham Price. Thinking of some things that have not aged particularly well, maybe out of this. But the introduction of Wesley, the first evil, Faith, Anya, expansion of Jonathan, have seismic repercussions for the rest of Buffy's stories. no other season I would argue is as impactful as season three of Bungie Empire Slayer in terms of like the things it sets up to come um okay but Wesley Wyndham Price what is your first impression here comes Alexis Denisoff like to to join the ranks were you familiar with him at all he's a real he's a real Whedon guy he married Allison Hannigan um out of this and they've got an adorable family so like delightful um he's around the Whedonverse for a while but this is Like kind of your introduction to him. Yeah, I think so. Got a kick out of, of course, the Jiles of the Next Generation framing. Very amusing. And then I really appreciated and enjoyed how quickly that is undermined as a framing, right? Jiles of the Next Generation. Frankly, how dare you, right? He might have the accent. He might have the council association, the glasses, the suit. But the fact that he is coming in on the heels of Giles' ousting from the council and the way that he tries so immediately to insert himself and to assert his authority and his control. I got like a real kick out of the, well, you know, like, let me let me take you through all of the field experience that I have. okay, we're done. You know, like he hasn't been in it and yet he is emboldened to think that he's in charge. So just right away, the instant dislike that I felt for him because he has like, even though Giles made a deliberate choice at the midpoint to stand up to the council and choose Buffy over the council, it's still like you are here at the expense of this person and this thing and you are interfering with our family, with our Scooby. So right away you're on edge. then he's just such a clown right like he just is such a clown and has no idea what he's doing and is like real like amateur hour um one of my favorite television episode titles of all time shit show at the fuck factory early succession stuff like that's really Wesley's vibe yeah and um and then you bring in the Cordelia element right away which I'll spoil that my pick for most 99 thing is the entire Cordelia Wesley plot which like Van and Bill and I just talked about this on the rewatchables episode for for wild things which is the same exact period of time right that's 98 this is 99 Dawson's Creek 99 it's like with Pacey this was just like a thing that was routinely in our shows and our movies at this point in time right and the one Giles being like she's 18 and you have the maturity of a blueberry skull but also Giles just being like it's okay for Giles at the dance a wild moment no was I a little bit distracted by how hot Giles looked in the talks it didn't take me a minute to process what he said possibly who can say who can say um but like that's just all you know oh yeah i'm here to um i'm here to watch girls oh sorry and the of course when we're in his head and you're a bad bad man i'm just like and then uh i don't have like my gen z and gen alpha lingo really down but i do believe that this is what the kids mean when they say it gave me the ick yeah oh yeah when when wesley and cordelia finally kiss and I'm like, but they gave each other the ick. They gave each other the ick. And that's, I have the ick. My skin is growing. It's tough. God. It's also a tough season for Cordelia because it basically, we talked about this a little bit, but it basically just exists to backslide her into like her previous character. What do you know about, tell me everything you know about the Angel spinoff, which we've talked about a little bit. I mean, literally nothing. I, on mic and on camera, found out that it took, My assumption, I mean, I knew the show existed. I knew it existed. And then it ran for many seasons. Like, I think I knew it was five seasons and that it had gone on for years, right? So I didn't think that it was just like a little blip or anything. My assumption, though, I guess if I kind of play back the tape on all of my WBCW watching over the years, like you would think it came after Buffy. That would have been my assumption was that it came after Buffy and it was his spinoff after Buffy concluded. I guess if I had forced myself to think about it I would have realized that wasn't true just based on like you know all my Tiger Beat and J-14 covers and stuff like that back in the day. Like David Boreanaz was doing at the time sure. Yeah but even so even when you told me like this is it this is Angel's exit from the show. It didn't occur to me that it would be this like definitive that he would be really leaving this plot line to open up his other thing. I guess I was anticipating a little bit more of a, and maybe there were, I know some things that await in the future. I'm trying to remain kind of pure from the things I don't know. I guess I was anticipating a little bit more, you know, Flash, Arrow, like many crossovers. There's a little bit of crossover, but it was tough because Buffy, after season five, goes to a different network. and that's when the crossovers get really dicey between the two shows because it was UPN versus the CW. So I will say there's, this has been a question a lot of bad babies are asking, which is like, how are you going to cover season four with season one of Angel running contemporaneously? And there is like some, you know, Angel will show up again. Buffy will show up on Angel. How are we going to handle this? I don't know. I don't know yet. I haven't figured it out. I don't want to add an entire other show to our roster. I don't think we can watch all of Angel as we're trying to. I think there's a couple episodes that we can throw into the mix, and it won't ruin you to see it. Do any of those episodes of Angel clarify definitively how, unlike Giles, who is canonically established as a school librarian, Wesley, a grown adult man who is not the school librarian, is just hanging out at a school all day? Is that covered anywhere? I'll tell you this. And I think it's okay. I mean, I understand you're trying to say pure. No, I have grown. I'm, for example, even seeing here Anya listed as like a seismic season three thing tells me something I do not know, which is that she has. Now, I would anticipate based on her role in these episodes, which I found wonderful, that she would be back. To the scope and extent, I have no idea. So that's like, that's one of the big, even just like stumbling on. I'm trying to keep you as innocent as possible, but I think I know some of the biggest things. I think it's worth saying, like, Cordelia, this is also the end of Cordelia's story. That I know for other reasons. I know that because of, like, real-life reasons in terms of knowing when Charisma Carpenter left the show. But she's on Angel. So the Angel spinoff is David Boreanaz and Charisma Carpenter establish that spinoff. Fascinating. Which is like a fun pairing to think about. And then Wesley Wyndham Price is like a big, massive part of the Angel show. And so like people love Wesley. This is like a very rough introduction to him. But then like he becomes a very important character for people. I found the performance wonderfully entertaining. So I'm excited to spend more time with him. And again, it's such a product of the late 90s to me that it's like. Here we are. Here we are. These late 90s. This is what we did. Let's talk about the Xander episode. the zeppo um love this is um you know as this season we're going to talk about a lot about the patriarchy when we get to talking about the mayor a bit more but like this season and it's dipping its toe uh a bit deeper into this idea of like sort of like incel culture not necessarily uh as it pertains to xander though through the 2026 lens there's certainly plenty of that sort of gathered around Xander, but like Jonathan and Earshot or Tucker, certainly in the prom episode, this sort of idea is percolating. But this very like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead approach where the Hellmouth is opening in the background of Xander's plot inside of this episode. It's a really fun point of view. And Whedon said later about the television series Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., quote, this is basically a TV series of the Zeppo, which is a very deliberate deconstruction of a Buffy episode in order to star the person who mattered the least. The people who are ignored are the people I've been writing as my heroes from day one. So this idea of Xander as the heart, or as I like to call him, the jelly donut, is something that will go on and on. But this is a, it's a thing that crops up in some of these, like, supernatural team-up shows where, like, as we talked about before, members of the team all start sort of acquiring power. So, like, Willow and her exploration of Wicca, you know, Oz and his werewolfness, et cetera, et cetera. And then you got Xander, the Zeppo, and he's also here. What did you think of this episode? This is one of my favorites to date. And in general, part of what I loved, I mean, everything about this season just in terms of its, like, cohesion, I loved. We'll talk about the mayor, the big bad. Yeah. The centering of human heroes and human villains and just complex human figures. It's just all wonderful. part of what I love so much about this stretch is that like there's a great Willow episode there's a great Xander episode and that they all have these through lines of like where am I Seth Green was filming awesome powers too so Oz comes through with some wonderful moments in this line is incredible but in terms of like Seth Green is now a series regular did we push his story forward in any way no no Oz is like Oz works really well because he doesn't change but um I think Seth Green was hoping for, like, a bit more. Yeah. I loved, to the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern point, structurally, I thought that was so smart inside of the Zeppo. Like, especially because it's not just... Because actually, you know, picking up this half of the season, there's a little part of me, for Xander and Willow, and Willow, of course, like, really actively attacks this with Buffy, which was one of my favorite parts of the season. Wait, all of a sudden, you don't think I can hack this anymore? Right. Which is just a really interesting, like, evolution inside of their relationships that connects to everything by faith. Yeah. Yeah. And so it kind of caught me off guard right away. The opening scene where Alexander like, oh, my God, you could have died. You should get out of here. But then it became the engine that takes us into this wonderful examination of like psychology and insecurity. And so the fact that it's not just that something is happening and we're in the shadows with Xander as our primary point of view character for the episode. It's like the most intense thing is happening. Right. The sisterhood of Jane. Yeah. The apocalyptic stakes. and with the helmet. Forget the face, that thing in a face. Yeah, it's like the most dangerous thing that has ever happened is happening. And we're like, let's go get ingredients to bake a cake. It's like genius. What I love about it, too, is that it operates as if you've never seen the Zepa before and you don't know what it's about and you start it and you're like, why is everyone speaking so melodramatically? That's like, you know, they're just like speaking these grandiose proclamations. And so we get to, like, satirize what Buffy does while enjoying this story with Xander at the same time. I think the funniest example of that in the episode was when Xander cuts into the middle of the Angel-Buffy conversation. That was killing me. It's so good. That was great. And I'm like, yeah, everyone is special but you front. I just love that in stories. And I thought this was a great way to examine that with Xander. You know, Cordelia coming in really aggressively and saying to him, like, it must be really hard, right? when all your friends have like superpowers, Slayer, Werewolf, which is vampires, and you're like this little nothing. You must feel like Jimmy Olsen. And he's like, wait, I was just making that joke. Oh, fuck, right? When you say it to me, it just feels like shit. Actually, it makes me feel like nothing. And the way he was talking to Oz about this idea of cool, it's like, well, what makes you cool? What's your thing? You need to find that if you're Xander because you feel like you don't have the other thing that everyone else has, which isn't just like, Oz, what makes you cool? Is it the way you play the guitar? You shouldn't short to the point that it's like, Laconic answers. Could be. Great stuff. It's that Xander's like, I'm not, I don't have a supernatural ability. So that it would feel almost strange to not have a version of that story in this stretch. And to do it so creatively, I just loved. Also, everything with Katie, the knife was hysterical. Great episode. Doppelgang land. Another banger. Which our producer, Carlos, has said in our notes, Vampire Willow changed lives. My life in particular. Love that for you, Carlos. It's really good. I think it's really important. Willow. When Willow says, it's horrible. That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and skanky. And I think I'm kind of gay. But he says, Willow, just remember our vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was. And Angela goes, well, that's a good point. This is, to your point, this is an incredible Willow episode. And again, as we're talking about doubles and duality and stuff like that, we've got Wesley and Giles, we've got Willow and vampire Willow. Like, what does vampire willow teach will and willow comes in and has to sort of the same way that xander takes this stand at the end of the zeppo and stares down his enemy and and wins yeah you know willow a little less successfully has to sort of like pretend to be this badass vampire as she as she comes into the bronze so dressed up in these leathers yeah exactly this is one of joss Sweden's top 10 favorite episodes of Buffy. I'm going to hit you with the list, which is number 10, Prophecy Girl from season one, which we have seen, which we both call that as a great episode. Number nine, Conversation with Dead People from season seven, which you haven't seen yet, but it is an incredible episode. Number eight, Restless season four. I'm not as high on Restless as Joss Whedon is, but it is an impactful episode. Number seven, Becoming Part Two from season two, which we talked about. Number six, The Wish from season three. Okay. Interesting. Number five, Doppelgangland. It's a great one. And then the top four, Innocence, Once More Feeling, Hush, and The Body, we always talk about as, like, sort of the canonical top, you know, I'm distraught that passion's not here on the list. That's okay. We can all have personal opinions. But it feels like Joss loves Anya, given that he gave us Doppelgangland and The Wish here on the list. And this idea of, like, an alternate reality, et cetera, introduction to Buffy. how did you feel about this episode are you surprised to see it at number 5 on Joss Whedon's all time not necessarily I think because it's like creative structurally and I think when Willow has like an episode that centers around her it's just very satisfying and rewarding to watch and I assume it must have been creatively too. I robot you Jane you're like that's my fave I didn't go to that episode as you know picked a lot of superlatives for that episode but you know I think just in terms of what it unlocks thematically, obviously, like, Buffy as our central figure is going to be the biggest driver of that. But when other characters can heighten and enhance either a parallel or a distinction, I think that just makes the whole universe and world feel more fully fleshed out. So, like, this idea with Willow and Vampire Willow, like what nature what nurture whether it being a vampire or being a slayer or being a Wicca or whatever the case would be What changes you What enhances and amplifies Super Soldier Serum? Something that's already inside of you. That's such an interesting thing to explore and play with. And it's also just a great stretch for Willow, like I said, because she stands up for herself so consistently. And that was the other thing in Doppelganger that I loved was just, it's not what don't I like about what I see? It's what do I kind of envy about this other version of me, you know? And so when she's first pretending at the bronze, when she's impersonating Vampire Willow and like talking about regular Willow actually speaking about herself, right? And it's like, you know, and she's this and she's that and she's afraid and she's like meek and then she blames other people for the things that like she's feeling. It was such an interesting example of kind of like play acting your genuine anxiety and projection, which I thought was really great. So, you know, that self-reflection. And then I think everything with what Willow is looking at with like Buffy and Faith and feeling on the outside of that relationship and really deciding to actively challenge it and say like, why would you treat me as somebody who couldn't handle this? I loved. Loved. Weird vibes to be like, you got to, you can't kill her. You got to save her. And then she just immediately gets skewered. immediately just scared yeah tough um the prom this is just a huge iconic uh buffy moment and uh i can't remember if i brought this up um in part one of our coverage of the season but uh chloe has said that she on the set of the buffy reboot um memorized the speech that jonathan gives at the prom here and they got like a an umbrella for sarah michelle geller and like gave it to her on the set of the show um and that's just like a really beautiful idea but Buffy is dubbed the class protector and this idea of being seen really seen like by her classmates for who she is in all of her complexity really answering the who are you question that we get at the beginning of the season um I love this twist this like unexpected twist and turn of the plot where it's like Yes, it bears belief that these kids, like, all year, all the years that we've been here, have not gotten on to. And so they're like, yeah, we know. Weird stuff happens here. And actually, we've noticed what you do. And the fact that they see her is just like, I cry every single time that I watch that scene. The fact that it's Jonathan off the back of Earshot is, like, so important. And this idea that like Buffy inside of especially this stretch of the season is caught between, you know, you mentioned the rejection of the Watchers Council. Right. Right. That first Giles gets fired and then Buffy quits the Watchers Council. So the rejection of the rigidity of those rules as personified by Wesley and the rest of the patriarchy at the Watchers Council. And then the anarchical, violent, chaos rules don't apply to us path that Faith takes in the back half of the season. And Buffy is caught in between here. And what she then has to really decide for herself is like if you're not going to go by the sort of institutional rules, like what the Watchers Council says is the right and proper thing to do. But you're not going to say no rules apply to me. Then you are forced inside of yourself to figure out what your personal code is and where your line is. And that's much harder than just following the rules that are given to you. It's creating your own structure and your own sense of morality. It's a real growing up moment. Hopefully that happens for everyone, but certainly that happens for Buffy inside of this back half. And I just love that sort of like these pulls on her and her forging her own path in the middle of that. And then being rewarded by this moment of being seen, especially inside of, you know, a show that had a girl literally disappear. in season one because her classmates didn't notice her, didn't see her. We do have a clip for this. I would clip this entire sushi if I could, but legally we can't, so Carlos did his best for me to clip this. We're proud to say that the class of 99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history, and we know at least part of that is because of you. So the senior class offers its thanks and gives you this. It's from all of us. And it has written here, Buffy Summers, class protector. Like, my eyes, wonderful. Get a little teary just seeing that. So, yeah, Buffy knows exactly who she is until next season, at least. So, that's great. We got this great email from Clifton that I wanted to read about this moment. Buffy receiving the class protector award at the prom might be my single favorite moment in the entire show. Jell says this line, I never knew children en masse could be so gracious. It's such a powerful line that communicates a lot. The moment matters so much because it's unsolicited, yes, but also collective and perceptive. Buffy has been routinely mocked, dismissed, feared, ignored, and has accepted that time and time again as just the cost of doing what she needs to do. But season three finally allows her class to see her clearly a protector. I would also say it's critical that she gets the protector award and not the hero award or the warrior award or something. Buffy is a shield or an umbrella, ultimately, not a sword. And that dichotomy explains a lot about Buffy versus Faith. And once they see her, they act. The season basically moves from individuals refusing to see the truth to a collective, choosing to see and to stand with what they seek. Seeing clearly doesn't solve problems. It forces responsibility. Faith flees from it while Buffy accepts it, and the class joins her in one of the most fist-pumping moments committed to video. Molly Rubin, how did you feel watching this episode, this scene in particular? I loved this one, and I thought that this moment was beautiful. You know, I'll spoil now. This is my pick for most emotional moment. I don't know how it couldn't be. The combination of what Jonathan says, which is so lovely, and the umbrella, and the look on Buffy's face, and the look on Giles' face, and then what Giles says, as Clifton wrote. at the end and just the recognition of really the rarity of that kind of collective embrace and acknowledgement is like such a lovely thing. You know, I think we I think about this a lot in the stories that I love and also just in real life. It's like that's the kind of the rarest currency is like just some can somebody see you clearly like either one is actually special about you or what you can provide. And we're talking about this recently. Yeah. Is anyone actually knowable? Yeah. And like the fact that the answer to that can maybe be no, but also there is a certain quality that is like undeniable and important. And I think it's like the rarity and beauty of that on its own in a vacuum would be incredibly like moving and rewarding. But I think it is further heightened. And the fact that it's so impactful is increased because like the, you know, we've been talking about this across the pods and we'll talk about it more today with the mayor, but like the structures around these kids whether it's like i like that they you know hyena people great stuff but like snyder getting a knock snyder hyena people is like one of my favorite moments a great buffy like microcosm of the humor leading right into the heart there but and also remembering hyena people from season one the pack lives on yeah frankly who can forget the you know the fact that like this school is a house of horrors in the high school as hell way, but also literally every day there's some great affliction waiting around every bend. And the fact that the mayor who is in theory tasked with the protection and preservation of this town and this community, like any physical manifestation of community, your school, your home, the town, the government, All of these forces of evil inside of those are not only maybe failing, like in the case of Snyder, who is, of course, like, you know, in cahoots to some extent, but failing to do even an iota of what Buffy is able to do. Like in the case of the mayor, he's actively offering up the people he should be protecting. He wants to eat the children. Yeah, as like the rituals and offerings to secure his position. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bloody offering, exactly. So, yeah, it's like Buffy is not only doing all of these things, but doing them in opposition to all of the other examples around everybody every day of how easy it is to do the opposite. So I just thought this was really, really lovely and wonderful. And just the look of gratitude on her face was so beautiful. Because you're so smart and I can't get anything past you. When I introduced to Jonathan Category in season two, you're like, this makes me think Jonathan's going to be important. I was like, no. And like, but honestly, I was being very honest because I do love the little ways that Jonathan is used for, like, Danny Strong is just so great. And I just like love him. Dipping the chip earlier. This is so wonderful. Like, all the little Jonathan-isms leading up to Earshot, I think is just like an incredible, slow role. We also get like, you know, Harmony and Larry die in the finale of this season of television. Like, and these are, again, like, little, we've just had little moments with Harmony, little moments with Larry leading up to this. And now it's like their fodder here at the battle. Probably if I was like as old as I am now, I'd feel about that the way I feel about the Battle of Winterfell, where I'm like no real person involved. How dare you? I know. A couple of our absolute fans. Jorah. I know Jorah. Yes, it's beautiful. I think works better for me than Jorah's death in that battle does. You know what I mean? Jorah's moment is really, really good. But anyway, he got a wonderful slow-mo musical accompaniment. So let's talk about Faith. Let's do it. In Earshot, there's this great scene where Buffy is absolutely bedeviling the sort of like goody-goody class person. Were you like a hand-raised front row ho like in English class? I was. That was me. It evolved over time. And like, I don't like knowing that about myself, but it was true. Yeah. It evolved over time, not in like middle school, but by high school and college, certainly. And like to the point where then if I wasn't commenting on something, I would often get called on just for making a face. You have, you clearly have something to say. You're making a face. Part of it. That would happen pretty routinely. Part of it for me, there was the like, I'm excited about this and I want to share it. Or I want validation for being thoughtful or whatever, you know, unflattered thing. But also sometimes the teacher would ask a question, no one would say anything. and I would feel so anxious on their behalf that I would raise my hand and say something because I was like, I feel bad for the teacher if they ask a question and no one says anything. Did you ever use the power of telepathy to access one of your teacher's former thesis and share exact passages from that and then have the teacher be like, I'll never discuss which aspects of the demon I manifested in my senior year of high school. But in Earshot, in that scene, they talk about Iago being the dark half of Othello himself, which is of course like what faith represents for buffy inside of this season let's play this great clip from the episode enemies everyone always asks why can't you be more like buffy but did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me no i didn't you get the watcher you get the mom you get the little scooby gang what do i get jack squat this is supposed to be my town incredible scene in general great like psych moment from buffy uh at the end of that really really good um faith caught monologuing like it it's it's all happening well um but this is what jayna said about um faith here's a slayer who makes the wrong choice throughout the season you can see buffy flirting with the idea of making those choices um and marty talking about uh xander marty knoxon talking about xander and faith says it ended up being about the idea of the abuse of power, nature versus nurture, the responsibility of strength, ideas rather than more relatable melodrama. And there's this line in Consequences, which comes after Faith kills Alan, R.I.P. Alan. The whole town being like, oh my god, this murder. I'm like, guys. Alan's beloved. Sure. And then there's legions of dead who none of you gave a shit about. But Alan. Wild. And his, you know. Number two on the list of astonishing developments in this season after. Dicey Man is a dicey relationship with mayonnaise. Anyway, in consequences... That I understand. In consequences, Buffy says, but it does not mean that we get to pass judgment on people like we're better than everybody else. And Faith says, we are better. And this is, of course, the dark side of with great power comes great responsibility. What do you think about all this? Oh my god. This is just, this is the good shit right here. This is the self-linel. This is the self-linel. This is just great! Strong and Baratheon. Exactly. we talk so much about There Before the Grace it is incorporated into active discussion in these episodes of television I love Faith, that clip you picked is such a great encapsulation of the opposite right? There Before the Grace, well what about There Before the Grace? Yeah I'm supposed to be the chosen one, chosen two what the fuck is this? This isn't what I was expecting at all I think there's something really honest about that and I love, this is another It doesn't last long, but I thought it was really smart to have Buffy be for a period of time before what Faith does and then the rupture that it causes. Incredibly self-involved. Really, like, high on her own supply and on the Slayer supply. And casting out the people closest in her life. Bad Girls is one of the most important episodes of television ever. I don't think you can moment. That's like, you kind of need Buffy to be tiptoeing into the dark. Yeah, for a second there so that she can have the clarity of really what that would feel like and look like. I thought that that was a real good, very smart way to kind of heighten it. The bad girls slayings, what we're built for if you're not enjoying it, there's something wrong moment, gave me such on the throne's front uh john danny uh uh everyone enjoys what they're good at i don't want it i don't want it like i love that moment with john do you think that's what kid harrington said after he kissed uh sophie turner in that clip that went around maybe don't want it it's been a powerful week to be a kid harrington fan i gotta say oh yeah boy Henry Muck my god this is your weekly industry check-in moment that's right this is my I think at this point it's more than once a week of mentioning industry on House of R or Talk to the Throne but my god Muck what a time to be a Muck fan and then I think just like also in a big picture sense with Faith the extra degree of despair that you feel that she seeks out the mayor like the fact that it is not he didn't come to her he didn't manipulate her she makes an active choice and choices is one of the episode names for a reason it's so central this idea of what you're deciding right off the heel of this moment where she she and Buffy are disagreeing she's at the docks she's maybe gonna skip town and then she kills Mr. Trick right R.I.P. I could have used more Mr. Trick personally so it's wonderful she kills Mr. Trick in this moment of like seemingly like saving Buffy it's this incredibly complicated moment like she and Buffy are at odds yeah um and then she saves her and you're like oh my god is Faith gonna turn there's so many oh my god is faith going to turn a corner angel has her and his reasoning with her and wesley shows up and fucks it up like there's so many moments where it's just sort of like can we make it uh with faith and and i mean listen she she ends the season in a coma so doesn't seem great but i don't know what a way guess what even it's not the last time even the fact that like the gambit with and with angel that faith is running before the tables yeah turn there um you know i'm scaring myself i know the feeling i felt like there were pretty consistent injections of truth you know your lies are always more powerful when there's truth behind them and so that just like the false starts of wait she saved buffy a lot of moments that pull you into the fact that there could i was i was expecting the entire time watching this season for the first time for faith to come back around the entire time yeah yeah so it was astonishing to me but in a very satisfying way that that is not how it went. Well, Dream Faith does. So, you know, while a cat was involved. So this is our listener, Brent, wrote it on the back of what she says in Enemies there. When she talks about like, you have the mom, you have the Scoobies, you have everything. And we had been talking about a real bone I have to pick with Joyce and Buffy this season is the fact that Faith is left languishing in this shitty motel. and it takes the mayor to take her out of the motel and put her in a loft somewhere with a lot of gauzy curtains. And I'm like, why couldn't Joyce do that? And our listener, Brett, wrote in to say, I believe the point of this decision is to show how we cannot ignore our dark side. When we ignore the darkest parts of ourselves, they grow in the shadows. Our darkness will grow and change one way or another. We can either take it in the house and help bring light to the dark, or we can lock it away in a crappy motel and let it fester until it comes to destroy our good sides. I loved that. I thought that was so smart. But I just, I love Faith. I love this term for Faith. We are despairing because we have come to care about Faith, so it is despairing to see her make these choices to go down this path. This is, of course, kind of what we went through with Angel in Season 2. Does it feel at all repetitive to you to see, like, a character that we cared about who was close to Buffy becomes an antagonist in the back half of the season. I would say, if anything, the opposite. Like, not only did it not feel like a retread, I think that the fact that one fall, like Angel, in Angel's case, was supernaturally driven and really rooted in the helplessness of the inability to be in control of your choices and the way that you want to live your life for your actual desires to be completely irrelevant. is that tells us something different than what fate, what happens with faith here, which is this very like deeply human choice born out of, you know, need and want and jealousy and lust for power and insecurity and how, how those are as powerful and as mighty as any supernatural force. Like that feels really important in this story, but also just more broadly, like there's more than one form that disappointment can take in your life. So I like reinforcing that. And then, you know, like we talked about, last pod when just discussing the introduction of Faith, I think it's interesting still to keep showing us different versions of what a Slayer's life can look like. Yeah, and then I think especially because Angel ends up sort of functioning as like this herald, right? Like, she's got a taste for it and then briefly seeks to be a guide and then of course has to be this oppositional force. That's one of my favorite stuff this season actually is Angel trying to reason with Faith or help Faith and then you know fucking Wesley shows up on the bad girls front as I want to do I do want to shout out my pals over at the Buffering podcast because they at a live show that I attended did a lengthy PowerPoint presentation all about how they had a map of Sunnydale we've got the time stamps of when Buffy and Faith go to slay a nest of vampires and then the next time we see them there is a i believe a costume change and they are dancing at the bronze dancing sexy at the bronze they sure are um and based on like timing from carlos it's a great season for carlos based on timing how you get around sunnydale the point of the powerpoint was faith and buffy definitely fucked inside of this episode that is their assertion right yeah um the buffy faith sexual oh these are not undertones these are overtones that were very intentionally there Doug Petrie, who helped create Faith, has talked about, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was, like, really, really aware of what we were doing. In the original script for Enemies, when Faith gives Buffy a smooch on the forehead and says, you kill me, you become me, all of that. It was originally supposed to be a smooch on the mouth. So, like, they're definitely, you know, not even just, like, flirting with this. They are definitely just, like, really trying to go for it as much as they felt like they could in 1999. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Vampire Willow does, like, lick Willow. So we are just sort of like circling all of this inside of this season. I found it all very compelling. Our listener listens that I would love to hear you talk about the Faith and Buffy sexual tension. Anything you want to say about that in particular? I think it is, as you said, a subtext and active text. Like, I think I will say this is specific to the faith aspect of this. I think that because so much of her lust and the way that Buffy and other characters talk about what intimacy means to Faith, if this had been explored more overtly in the show, I could have seen it going two ways. ways. On the one hand, I could see Buffy or anybody else really wondering maybe how genuine that feeling was on Faith's part, right? But then there's an opportunity to really, like, heighten the connection as a result of that, because it could stand in contrast to the kind of boy toy for a night Xander experience. So, yeah, it's the dance, the cut to the dancing at the bronze is it's it's uh i'll immediately put it in the in the in the head canon next to steve rogers and natasha uh in the car yeah on the road listen um bad girls with the like the heart on the window the breaking through the window with the lights streaming behind them like the two slayers getting ready to fight and then the bad girls dancing at the bronze moment are just like iconic that's great buffy vampire slayers i learned from faith at the beginning of the season that uh slaying just always makes you hungry and horny. So what else were they going to do between slaying at the vampires and dancing at the bronze? It's also, again, this doesn't diminish the prospect of a more fully realized and sincere connection. There's something that would also, I think, feel very right to me about faith. It's very, like, Loki, Sylvie, seismic narcissist coded to me. Like, who would you possibly be more inclined to want to touch and fuck and fall in love with and worship than somebody who reminds you of yourself. If you think that you are the best in the world because you're special because you're a slayer. Something makes us different. Reminds you of yourself, but like the version of yourself that everyone else seems to find more palatable. Right. The blonder, quote unquote, better version of yourself. Yeah. The mayor. Let's talk about the mayor. As you alluded to before, this is the first non-vampire big bad and it sparks a trend for sort of the rest of the series. Like, you know, we had the master, we had Spike, we had Angelus and we're like, okay, we get it. Vampires, we've defeated them. We get it, you're evil. Like, what, you know, where can we go from here? We've got a demon with a human face inside of, or a human who wants to become a demon, a true demon inside of the mayor. I love the contrast. He's like, I mean, he's so funny. Mayor Richard Wilkins is so, so funny. And, but alongside that humor, his like fussiness, his prissiness is a really nice contract to the impulsivity of Spike and Angelus and Drusilla, their appetites, their like, you know, Angel just like letting passion overcome him and stuff like that. And the mayor is a planner. Yes. Fighting his time. You know, golly gee willikers and all of that. So I just think that is incredibly good. And we got a great email from our listener, Cesar, talking about all the human, you alluded to this, but like, the Watchers Council, Wesley in Gwendolyn Post, Jonathan, the lunch lady in Earshot, like, humans can be just as dangerous as vampires, demons are the forces of darkness. This isn't a season where evil conveniently wears a demonic face. It's a season that asks harder questions about complicity, institutional failure, which you were underlining, and the choices people make. We're going to talk about him as like a bizarro giles and i really want to get your take on that but i want to i want to talk about like the patriarchy which we talked about when it comes to the watchers council and i want to talk about again when it comes to uh richard wilkins because he's got this like again golly gee willikers ted wheeler-esque like language sort of approach thing which is very funny and very fun and really well done but also this like he's he's quite literally patronizing the way that he talks talks to Faith as like a daughter figure, right? Which is so, it is similar and different from the way that Giles thinks of Buffy as a daughter. He's about building Buffy up to be as strong as she can be. And Faith is just a weapon for the mayor to wield at the end of the day. But these literally patronizing quotes from him, like talking to Faith, this isn't a free ride, young lady. You know, I'm beginning to think that somebody is getting a little spoiled. Maybe I should just take this back. Or to Buffy. So you're the little girl that's been causing me all this rebel. She's pretty, Angel. And then later it calls her a whore. And like to wrap that all up with Buffy taunting the just really elegant CGI snake that is Mayor Wilkins at the Ascension. You want to get it back for me? Dick. That was great. it's just incredible stuff anything you want to say about that or this idea of him as sort of a bizarro Giles figure yeah I mean I had to do some soul searching and reflect on the fact that I have a very similar relationship to germs as Mayor Dick Wilkins something that's like this guy might be on the stuff in here this guy It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. Dick, share the rest of the platform. You know, I think that the, like, Mayor Wilkins III had some points. Had some good points. A great whiskey cabinet and, like, hand cloths, hand wipes before maybe they were quite as prevalent as they are now. I respect it. I do. Everything else I have some notes. Can you be a talented golfer? Yeah. He could work on, he could stand to work on a short game a little bit. I think the fact that he celebrated hitting that putt so robustly indicates he's missing a lot of them. Okay. Great. um the pull your hair back you know you'd look nice with your hair pulled back and like the the pink dress um not only wooing faith with the the the loft but like the playstation i'll buy you an icy the single most disgusting moment to me to date across three seasons of buffy was when he poured faith a glass of milk which like really room temp just sitting out milk you need to talk my friend Jenny about this. I would love to. I'm like, I'm scarred by that. You know, I think it is so effective in a couple ways. One, it is something that Faith sees that she can use, that there's like a space there that she can occupy, right? But also it is to the, like, their truth and the lies discussion from a few minutes ago, it is something that Faith doesn't have and didn't have and misses. Like the way that she kind of casually and sarcastically says elsewhere, can we skip the like mom didn't love me part like that ease a wound for her right and so to have the mayor as a character who um is giving faith some really warped and kind of twisted and sick version of a thing that she lacked and that Buffy has but as we know from being inside of Buffy's home and life it's not perfect it's not easy Joyce we have some notes Joyce we have some notes Giles we've had some notes right and so there's always that question of like what does where your jealousy leads you to think that somebody else has something in full and completely that you lack i like the way that this captured it and i think that we've been talking since the beginning of season one about with giles and buffy obviously my favorite relationship in the show the impact that they've had on each other and the way that they have learned and grown collectively and positively influenced each other and like face challenges together and push through them together You know there like a version of the mayor and faith where you like that not what this is at all But then there are these, the fact that the, I was like, it's going to be the germs, right? At the end, it is going to be the germs. And then the fact that it's like, this dagger reminds you of faith and that is how I can lead you to your doom was such an interesting way to just really heighten and reinforce the parallels. You know, this thing that might have been like his humanity. Yeah. There's like a transactional aspect to the relationship initially, but it doesn't mean that even the villain is incapable of forging an attachment and an affection that is, even if it's warped, is on some level for them sincere and giving them both something that they needed. And especially because we got to hear him talk when he was lecturing Angel and Buffy about the passage of time and their relationship, a scene that I really loved. We get to hear him talk about, like, his love and what he lost. You mean Edna May? Edna May and Wilkins. What it was like to watch her, like, melt away. Yeah. And wrinkled and senile and cursing me for my youth. Yeah. And then you're like, well, damn, like, that actually sounds really hard and lonely, you know? So I just thought this was all great. And, like, when he pours the milk and puts her in a pink dress and tells her to pull her hair back, I'm, like, revolted and appalled. Yeah. But then there are moments that just draw you in. And I think the way that Eliza Dushku plays it, because, like, just her, like, kind of shy little smile sometimes when he, like, it's a fucked up war dynamic. But she's getting something that she kind of wanted from Gwendolyn Post, if Gwendolyn Post could offer it. And she kind of wanted it from, like, maybe Joyce or maybe Giles. But they are, you know, that space is already occupied by Buffy for them. And so it's like, she's so thirsty for this, that even though it comes from this completely demonic, warped source who's asking her to do horrible things, there's this girlish sort of, you know, delight that she takes in it. The moment where he's like, if Buffy walked in right now, I'd still pick you. It's like such a kind of like, just prototypical gaslighting, right? And manipulation, but it is, oh, okay, are you the only person who would make that choice? Moment for Faith? That was brilliant. I do love, like, the fact that he's been at this for three generations, more like, same exact guy, same exact guy, right? But the fact that he's been sort of, like, ruling, shadow ruling over Sunnydale, you know, since the turn of last century, means that the way that Sunnydale is in terms of, like, hiding the supernatural, like, this premise that beggars belief that, like, you know, PCP gang. and violence PCP or like, you know, backed up sewers or whatever the case may be, all these like Snyder excuses come from a century of an institution hiding demonic activity inside of Sunnydale. Right. And I think that's incredibly smart. And then like the impervious aspect, which I absolutely, I mean, like special effects, we have some questions, but more than a few. But the impervious aspect in this idea, I'm like Epstein files cooked as most people are in our country right now. But the idea that, like, the rich and powerful are impervious to, they could be, like, doing demonic activity right in your face, and you could throw a letter opener at them or something like that, and it won't touch them because they are above, you know, and it takes, you know, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, someone to sort of permeate those halls of power. Yeah, and like the frat boys, like, you know, previously this idea that how they actually got that power in the first place is because they're willing to offer you up to the beast in their lair. Like, that's all. And then again, that great touch inside of that, though, of saying like, without ever crossing the line into, oh, we're saying that like, even though it is literally framed as like the human imposes the weakness that we can exploit, never making that feel like the bad thing for Buffy or our Scoobies, like this supernatural impervious being. It wasn't the blade through the head. It wasn't the letter opener in the hand. It wasn't actually the germs. It was the TNT in the library. He's impervious and invulnerable. when he wears the face of a man but when he's a snake when he's yeah that's when they can get him by preying upon his humanity that's like a fascinating kind of contradiction all the pieces are so satisfying the fact that like we know a thing or two about explosives or right Anya who we met earlier way earlier in the season has some information because she was around during the last ascension you know like all of like every single piece is is feels intentionally put in in place you already alluded to this great scene in I believe it's Choices where the mayor talks to Angel echoing what the first evil says and amends echoing what Spike says in Lover's Walk echoing what Joyce will come to say when she's like she'd go to Northwestern are you kidding me? What are you doing holding her back? And then his dream of Buffy's wedding this is all setting up for Angel to depart the show in a way that feels believable in a way for him to still like seemingly the two of them still being the loves of each other's lives and it still feels accurate, correct, in character. That it follows the story that he would leave. Because when you do a spinoff, when a character leaves, either because the actor's done or a spinoff or whatever the case may be, I'm always from like a take apart the machine of this TV show and look at the parts and put it back together. I'm always looking for like how organic is this departure? The fact that they plan this for a while sort of gives them a lot of runway. And so you can have amends and lovers walk and choices and all these things lead up to this. But how did it work for you? And how did it work as a goodbye? Knowing because I spoiled for you. This is the end of Angel. No, again, even then, I'm like, I think we'll be back after a show or I don't know. This worked well for me. I think that it was imperative that Buffy voiced inside of the show a lot of things that I was thinking because the fact that like Spike, we love that lover's walk scene and Spike knows of what he speaks. Right. But the fact that like Joyce is meddling with Buffy's life is actually like really like repellent to me, given the Joyce Buffy history and the fact that like the mayor, this bro comes in and is like are you sure and then he's just like good point no but like but but the worst person you know has a point yeah right i think the fact that buffy voices in the show like well what about what i want what about what i think about my own life do i not get to say in like do i not get to be the arbiter of my own heart she does say that to him if that had not happened i actually i think i would not have liked this because but because she says that And then it is like Angel is just ultimately that heightens the the sacrifice and the tragedy of the fact that they don't feel like they can be together, that he part of his kind of eternal torment is not feeling like he's worthy of and deserving of that kind of happiness. because if he gets it, it is, like, a literal risk, right? But also it is coming at, like, the expense of a fuller and more true experience from the person he cares about the most in the world. That all felt, like, really right to me for Angel. I was glad that Buffy was kind of like, fuck off. And then they have time over many episodes to work toward the really emo and very dramatic and real chef's kiss in a great, like, late 90s way. I'm just going to watch you from the fog. And I was like, this is great. Very good. So, yeah, I did enjoy it. The fact that the nature, I think the clever nature of the, like, the poison and this layer of blood. And he has to drink from her. So we get one more, like, pseudo sex scene between the two of them. But also, like, how dangerous that was for Buffy. Yeah. What is Buffy willing to risk for him? and then you know is Xander always the um most trusted and impartial authority when it comes to Angel and Buffy no but like when he says you know good to know that you'll always you'll you're you'll be willing to like risk the person you love most to save your own ass like there's a kernel of something there so everybody gets like uh I'm not allowed to give Xander any any any she like she like not forces him but she like beats the shit out of Angel in order to get him to like But then he really latches on. He stops in time. The crushing of the metal. Yeah. Because it's really good. Very powerful and great stuff. So, yeah, this was all, like, really good. I also, I don't know if this is, like, completely sacrilegious to say. Like, I'm kind of excited to see Buffy explore relationships with other people. Like, I feel like. It really, I think it is so fitting. This is her high school boyfriend. Another graduation. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like the right time. I'm not anti-Angel Buffy. it's not as you know not my like canonical ship from this show but i but it has its place it's a high school romance and it like it matters yeah absolutely um all right last but not least before we get into our superlatives uh i'm calling this section riddles in the dark i get to take you into theory corner yeah uh carlos will you play this clip from graduation day part two please there's something i'm supposed to be doing oh yeah miles to go little miss muffet counting down from 730 great riddles oh look at that cat as you mentioned there's a cat um we also get this exchange who's gonna look after him it's a she and aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves cat as stand-in for lonely isolated slayer wonderful a higher power guiding us pretty sure that's not what I meant. So, welcome to Theory Corner, Mallory Rubin. Any theories cooking from what this cryptic dream exchange could mean here at the end of all things? And by the end of all things, I mean high school. I don't know, because some of what happens in that sequence kind of immediately bears fruit. Like, there's the flashing of the dagger in Buffy's hand, right? And then that is what Buffy uses to lead Little Miss Muffet counting down from 730. Yeah. no no absolutely no idea no idea no idea we're just gonna mark it no come back to it i assume it uh uh i mean faith is not faith is not dead so there's not until faith dies there's not another slayer coming right so faith is alive another slayer is not coming unless she has had a like drowning line moment yeah flatline moment But I assume that is pointing to the arrival of another figure of consequence, whether that is an individual person, a force of evil. I don't know. Could it be. 730 sex scenes for Giles, that would be great. I would personally really love that. OK, season four is just Giles fucking up a storm in my head canon. OK, great. Certainly. You know what's interesting about. So we are, I think it's like, yeah, something like 50 something episodes into this show, right? Right, because season one's shorter. Or maybe like 60, maybe low 60, something like that. Yeah. And that's wild to think about because like there are many like important shows in our life that never even get 50 episodes. And this is what I sort of mean about the like marination time you have with a 22 episode season. And it's just sort of like you've spent 60 plus episodes with these characters so far and you have many more to go. And it's just sort of like a different time. And then potentially five seasons with Wesley and Angel too. Wild to think about. I guess the, Willemus Muffet counting down from 730, I have no clue. I guess the higher power guiding us, it does strike me that that, that in the same stretch here in the, in the, in the graduation day, double finale, very like end of the show, you know, Giles as they're looking at the burning school and he's saying, you know, of graduation, there's a certain dramatic irony attached to all this synchronicity that borders on predestination, one might say. Like, that note is being pinged a couple times here. But also it feels a little lampshady of like, we get it, we did like a graduation day and like we blew up the high school as we're leaving, you know, all of this sort of stuff. We don't have a like saddest death category that we're going to get to today, but I would probably give it to RIP the library. We spent some good times there, man. It's done. We spent some great times there. The library set is over. Jeez, where will Giles hang out? Tune in to season four to find out. Is he going to be at college with them? Like, is he just going to hang out in the cafe or something because they like their mochas? Like real Wesley, sort of, what is this old man doing here? At college, it's fine. in high school. It's just really fucking weird, but college is fine. Yeah. We'll find out. I can't wait. Let's go down to our superlatives. Alright, Mallory Rubin. Fair line. Okay, so my actual pick is one we've already talked about. It's from episode 21, Graduation Day, part one. Buffy quitting the council and saying, you know, you can't turn your back on the council. They're in England. I don't think they can tell which way my back is facing. It's just fucking dope. Yeah. And this is Muni. I like to think of it as graduation. I just got one of those really satisfying, like full body chills that you kind of will remember forever when you hit a perfect moment in a story that you love. So that is my, my pick. I have some rapid fire also rats, but I'll wait for you to make your, your pick and then hit some of my run, my runners up. This is a gift for me to you. And it goes like this. Sure. We can work out after school. You know, if you're not too busy having sex with my mother, Q Giles running into a tree. I was going to say, incredible line. I like to think that my beloved Rupert Giles would be more composed than to just stumble face first into a tree trunk. But I don't mind being reminded of his tree trunk. I also think so. We already mentioned it, but... Carlos, this is a light play compared to what you had to go through last week. I also think... I already mentioned it, but you want to get it back for me? dick is a great line as well. What are your rapid fires? Okay, bad girls. After Faith and Xander have hooked up, so Faith is asking Buffy about Xander. She's just a friend. So what are friends for? I mean, I'm sorry. It's just all this sweating nightly side-by-side action you never put in for a little after hours. Grunting. Great stuff. Willow to Buffy. Also in bad girls. Give me time and I may be the first way to do all my conjuring and pine fresh scent. I loved that. Consequences. Faith to Angel. Yeah, I hope evil takes MasterCard. It's great stuff after he says you can't put a breath in. Imagine the price for true evil. Doppelgangland, Anya, and Willow. I swear, I'm just trying to find my necklace. I'm looking inside the sofa in hell. Incredible. I think Allison Hannigan's delivery of that is one of the all-time so fun. She's really amazing in this season. Yeah. Earshot. Angel warning Buffy to be careful with the demon's aspect. This is a more, like, sincere one. A lot of things that seem strong and good and powerful, they can be painful. I liked that. On the Angel Buffy front in prom, they're hunting down who's buying brains to feed to the hellhounds, and she sees him getting the pints of blood, and he's like, where did I think you got your blood? McPlasma? That's great. That's great. Alright, villain of the week. Easiest pick of the pod run so far? The homie Balthazar. from bad girls i love this guy or balfi as i will be calling him i have been calling him in my home tell me tell me about the homie balfi so there's a real like kind of dune vibe to just the way in the tub vibe to just his positioning also at the very end after he's been fried and his skin is all like you know red and blistered and crackling i'm like that's what i look after like the first day out in the sun in LA in the summer. I just want, I'm grateful to him for with Giles in his in Balfi's dungeon lair. Wesley's also there. Balfi he's being basted. Yeah. The front, the front and moisten the front. And I just want to go on the record that it's not something people usually have to say when Rupert Giles is in the room. An elegant solution. This is fantastic work from you. Top tier as always. God, great stuff. You know what I want? If it's for me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request you kill me now. This is a great Giles stretch with Balthy, and I'll remember it till I die. I actually think the real answer is not the homie Balthy's are. But I think Carlos agrees with me. It's vampire Willow. Like, it's got to be vampire Willow. Very powerful. Incredibly good shit from Vampire Willow. I honestly didn't know if Vampire Willow was eligible given the two episodes of the first half of the season as well. But I think it's a perfect character. I think it's possible you always call me out for breaking my own rules, and that's great. But she's like the main villain in that episode, kind of. But then Anya's also there, and DeHoffren's also there. So things to think about. Similarly, best fit, I'm giving it to Vampire Willow and all the leather. Undeniable. Or Buffy's iconic red leather pants. black sleeveless shirt. She has a coat on the episode, but all the promo photos are like absolutely iconic. And when you see women dress up as Buffy for like Halloween, this is like, this is the look is the red leather pants, the black sleeveless shirt. And Faith says, well, look at you all dressed up in big sister's clothes. That's so good. Yeah. Really great. That's, that's fantastic. I think Will, Doppelganger Willow to me is the pick, but I did just want to like leather throughout this season. I gotta say it's just like having a moment. Again, And the 90s. And eternal, honestly. Eternally. I did have one of my most, like, the most 1999 thing. Yeah. One of the options is Faith, like, Faith wears a lot of leather this season, and it's all great. But in one episode, which one, in consequence, she's wearing vinyl pants. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are just, like, you know, the high shine off the vinyl pants. Very shiny. So 99 to me. Very shiny. um since this is a fashion category though i would just like to take a moment to reflect on the evolution of giles's wardrobe obviously after he is no longer a part of the council uh oh yeah the assembly yeah you were floored lord now i have the shirt the t-shirt that i had previously worn with all the pictures of giles so i knew that sweaters were coming because there's some sweater giles action on that t-shirt however nothing could have prepared me and i mean nothing could have prepared me for the opening of the Zeppo, where he's in a, like, it just looks like he's walked right out of an Eddie Bauer catalog, and he's in, like, an oversized, really outdoorsy fleece. That was a shock to me. The network is, like, really roomy in season four. Yeah, and it's mostly working. That one I had some notes on. However, in earshot, powerful in a number of respects, everything that happens with Giles in that stretch, but Buffy's in bed. Joyce is in the doorframe, and Giles is, like, behind Joyce, also in the doorframe, and he has, you know, the one hand on the doorframe, and the other is pulling the glasses off and then pinching the nose, and he's got the, like, kind of brown blazer, black shirt, no tie. Walking sex. Just unbelievable. I'm sure Joyce thought so, too. No question. Giles in a tuxip prom. Incredible. And then on the sweater front, when he's in, like, the roll neck sweater, is he in Wesley Fence in Graduation Day Part 1? That was working for me, I have to admit. It's great. Giles, known fashion plate. Great stuff. I just like that he's trying some new things. All right, this is our rapid-fire best of the mayor, Cordelia, and Oz-ism. What do you want to give me for the mayor? Okay, so I had two candidates for the mayor. One is spoken and one is written. in Bad Girls when he opens his to-do list after the sword to the head test. Yeah. And he checks off Become Invincible and then we see that he also has Meeting with PTA, Call Temp Agency, and Haircut. Yeah. It's like real Steve Rogers, I'm updating my to-do list stuff there. Great. But in Graduation Day, part one, he's eating the Gavroc or as Buffy would say, Gravlox. Iconic. That killed me. I want to say Gravlox. That's so good. the like little legs like that he's crunching on funny and he says i can feel the changes to begin my organs are shifting merging making ready for the ascension plus these babies are high in fiber what's the fun in becoming an immortal demon if you're not regular am i right great concerns you know fiber intake is very important stuff uh we love that here's my favorite mayorism of all time uh there's more to more than one way to skin a cat and i happen to know that's factually true not a fan not a fan it's really funny also his love of the paper shredder yes the paper shredder is good it's very good I also liked when he said we don't knock during dark rituals that's great we don't knock during dark rituals Cordelia I had fewer contenders for Cordelia than usual I will say absolutely the back of the season is not great for her but I will say in earshot when she can hear everyone's thoughts and Cordelia just like thinks what she says I don't see what this has to do with me and then she says I don't see what this has to do with me and then she goes whatever. I wonder if I can go. Whatever. Can I go? That was very funny. And then suck a fuck Xander. I'm just going to sneak a suck a fuck Xander in here when he says the comedy stylings of Miss Cordelia chase everyone who incidentally won't be needing a higher education when she markets her own very successful line of hooker wear. Fuck you, Xander. Jesus. Fuck you. Not very nice. Alright. Any other Cordelia-isms in here? I had the same winning pick because that was just such a great note on her character. she's really mean again in these episodes. You know? It's sad. I did the earshot when they're all doing their interviews, and she says to Mr. Beach, were you planning on killing a bunch of people tomorrow? Oh, it's for the yearbook. Yeah. There's just something so specific to Cordelia about the way she does that. I like that. All right, our guy Oz. Great, great, great Oz contenders here. We already mentioned the could be in the Zeppo. That really killed me. And I liked also in Zeppo when Xander's like, you need a thing. One thing nobody else has. What do I have in Oz's? An exciting new obsession. Which I feel makes you very special. I think my pick is in Doppelgangerland when Willow is confronting that her friends think she's worried people think she's boring. And she finds out that Oz has gotten back from a gig. And she's like, why didn't you tell me? And he's like, I didn't think that you would want me to. I didn't think you'd want to miss school. She says, you think I'm boring? He says, I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text. I just love that. Love that. I think my favorite Oz moment is when he tosses the cauldron when Wesley is debating whether or not we say Willow or we do this or whatever. And Oz is like, well, there you go. No other option. So that rare moment of him losing his shit, right? Once again, an earshot. I am my thoughts if they exist in her. Buffy contains everything that is me and she becomes me. I cease to exist. Incredible shit. We think therefore she is was so funny. Yeah. Willow, what are you doing? Oz panicking. right before they have sex. Great stuff. Yeah. And then this is a Cordelia, Xander, Oz, you know, three-way, which is, we'll get a container of Ebola virus. Or it doesn't even have to be real. We can just get a box that says Ebola on it and chase him with the box. Xander says, I'm starting to lean towards the hummus offensive. Oz says, he'll never see it coming. Incredible. Oz is the best. I like to do with the prom and basketball, his reactions to these very traditional, typical high school experiences that haven't really been a part of his life in a way that he enjoyed. So when they're all like, oh, my God, this game-winning three-pointer, a buzzer beater at the end of the game, and everybody's talking about it, and Buffy wasn't there. So there's that awkward, maybe things, Stranger Things. But when Xander's like, for a minute, I thought you were going to make an expression, and Oz is like, there's no one coming on. I won't lie. And then on prom, when Buffy asks how the dance has been, Oz says, strangely affecting. It's very, just, he's great. He is great. Very sweet. Best fight scene? I mean, I think it has to be, well, I think I'm going with Buffy and Faith and consequences. I think that that's very difficult to top. You need me to toe the line because you're afraid you'll go over it, you know, because it tempts you. You know it could be you. That's just all fantastic. I did really like, as a contender, Faith and Willow, their argument in choices was very powerful. Inside the mayor's office? Yeah. I like the way that Willow calls out Faith on her bullshit there. Yeah, I think it's obviously the Faith and Buffy fight. The line should have been there be quite a ride, which doesn't even fully make sense, but kind of does at the same time. that jump off the roof onto the truck. I think it's fantastic. It's like what you've been wanting all season and I think they just really nailed it. And then you get a CGI snake, which is not as good. Though the whole student body comes and fights and there's something really sweet about that. And that was more convincing visually than the snake. So I'll go with the verbal argument and the initial kind of skirmish at the docks in episode 15 consequences you're going with the fully realized right at the end and then there'll be bookends and pair great love it fantastic horniest moment we both have clips for this you go first got this what do you say i want to be back this just can't get more disturbing no more you're really starting to freak me out that is both my true answer and a gif for Carlos of vampire willow licking willow's neck. Very powerful. The dream. That's the dream. And like not all of the doubling, there's some like, there's a little bit, like I think they handle the doubling really well where like you see her lick the neck and then you cut to like, you know, our willow's face. You don't have to do a lot of like weird split screen like trickery or whatever. It's done really well. Very, very memorable. The implication of like to your point about Faith wanting to have sex with herself. The implication that Vampire Willow wants to fuck herself is like fantastic. Again, it's just so Loki core in a way that I love and appreciate. Or Loki Buffy core, you know what I mean? I think that's the case. That is the case. Yes, exactly. Look, you know what I've picked here. Everybody knows what I've picked here, but let's just enjoy it together anyway. Why are you... You had sex with Giles? You had sex with Giles? It was the candy. We were teenagers. On the hood of a police car? I'll be downstairs. You feel better. Twice? The most important moment in the history of television. I mean... After Ban Candy, were you worried that we would not, like, come back to this, that Buffy would ever find out? You were like, this will resonate through history. This seismic historical event will rain down for generations. Much like both of the orgasms that Giles gave Joyce on the hood of that car rippled and coursed through her, I felt sure that the impact of that moment would ripple and coursed through the rest of the season. Easiest pick yet. That was, with apologies to the homie Balthazar, that was actually the easiest pick. Homie Balthazar. Some runners-up. Everything in Bad Girls. Faith and Buffy dancing. No question. Buffy jump-mounting Angel, like when he comes into the bronze. Yes. Very good stuff. This is a pretty horny stretch of episodes. I have no complaints. In the Zeppo when the car woman enters Xander life and Cordelia and Xander have just been arguing inside of the donut shop and she been you know belittling him And Xander, as Cordelia is watching, says of, you know, in answer to how does it handle, how does the car handle, like a dream about warm, sticky things. Great. Oh, I'm up! I'm suddenly very up! I've just never been up with people before. That was kind of interesting to me, actually. I guess it... I wasn't shocked that Xander and Cordelia had not had sex because obviously that would have been... We would have known if that had happened, but it is interesting that they didn't, actually. That is interesting. Let's see what else. Oh, Enemies, the Le Banquet d'Emilia. Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of eating. Oh, my God. This is iconic in Enemies. This is just Great. One of my favorite Angel and Buffy scenes yet. I thought it was about food. Well, there was food. I just don't like to rub your nose with it. Suddenly wondering where that expression comes from. Holy shit. And just Angel's delivery I've seen. It's been a long time since I've been to the movies. They've changed. Really killed me. That was great. I was thinking enemies when Angel compliments Joyce's hair. Great stuff. Also when he's like, we never tried chains. And then, of course, in episode 20, when Joyce goes to visit him, the way that she looks at the chain from the wall. Very important. Oh, Oz and Willow having sex for the first time in Graduation Day Part 1. As Amy the Rat watches. And then they have sex again in Oz's van. They do. They do. And they're late for graduation because they were having sex. They sure are. Good for them. Good for them. And then I think, as we mentioned, the crumpling of the metal container. Angel just like slurping on Buffy in the finale. It's just very impactful. All right. Best use of Jonathan. Are you going with earshot or prom or are they inextricable? I'm going with earshot. Okay. Because this scene, this episode was not written by Joss, but Joss wrote this scene. And I think about this speech all the time. It's a Buffy speech, but like Jonathan's in the scene, so I'm counting it. My life happens to on occasion suck beyond the telling of it, sometimes more than I can handle. And it's not just mine. every single person down there is ignoring your pain because they're too busy with their own the beautiful ones the popular ones the guys that pick on you everyone if you could hear what they were feeling the loneliness the confusion it looks quiet down there it's not it's deafening you know i could have taken that by now but my life happens to on occasion suck beyond the telling of it is like an iconic buffy line to me because it is like this speech is is beautiful and thoughtful and all stuff like that but my life happens to on occasion suck beyond the telling of it is such like a buffy way to deliver that sentiment. I just, I really, like, I have questions about this, like, cobwebby clock tower that exists inside of the Sunnydale High School. Like, what is that doing there? Why is it so derelict? I don't know. Why are the windows all boarded up? But, you know, Jonathan being like, oh, yeah, sure. Being like, hot and blonde and, you know, and athletic is like a real burden. And she's like, guess what? My life is also full of pain and misery. Yeah, that's my pick as well. In part because I have the prom scene, as I already mentioned, as my most emotional moment. So I didn't want to pick the exact same thing for two of the categories. But we don't get that moment without this. You know, you don't get Jonathan saying most of the people here have been saved by you or helped by you at one time or another without what happens in the clock tower between them. So great one. And I also love in that clock tower sequence, like he's so shiny, like greasy, shiny. And like this, like his like striped shirt is just all like Danny Strong is so good. and like just the whole Jonathan thing really works for me, all of it. We're not done with Jonathan. It's great. Okay. Most 1999 thing. I already spoiled my pick, which is just all of the whole Wesley Cordelia thing is so of its time to me. So I'll throw out since I already spoiled that that was my pick. The number of times that taping things on a VCR is invoked or comes into play here. I want Cordelia's like zoom in. She's like, I can. And then I pause and he's like, guys, it's just an, oh yeah, okay, you can do that. And in the Zeppo, Bob, after finding out he's been dead for eight months, and then there's the Walker, Texas Ranger, you've been taping him, right? And Jack's like, every year. And in Doppelgangerland, one of the things that sets Willow, really sets Willow off is the moment when Xander and Buffy come up to her and ask if she didn't remember to tape biography last Friday. She's like, yeah, yes, fuck. I did remember to tape biography. A&E biography was very important to me. And the tape and all the tape stuff in prom is just, yeah. So VCRs and cassettes. What about you? Other than the vinyl pants, I don't mean to, like, bring it down or two here, but I do think, like, the delay in release date is, like, a very 1999 thing. Yeah. Just, like, a very of specifically that year. All right. Not Buffy's crimped hair. You're not going with that. Nope. We didn't talk really about the micro bangs enough last pod. So what had happened was, if I recall correctly, Sarah Michelle Gellar had done Cruel Intentions where she dyed her hair brown and then they were trying to re-bleachify her as fast as possible for Buffy and they like overcooked her hair so like the micro bangs but also just like the shag like there's just like a lot like there's these bright blonde money pieces in front of her hair at the beginning of the season and that just like killed her hair and so the micro bangs and then the like we saw in the clip from Enemies she's got this like real shag cut at that point because her hair was just like dead and they were doing the best they could because they overblonded her. So tough, tough moment for Buffy's hair. Sarah Michelle Gellar's like, I learned some lessons about what you can and cannot do moving from blonde to brunette and back again. Giles' most dad moment. You go first. I have too many contenders. I can't go first. I think this is really easy for me. I have like 15. In this back half, Giles seeing Buffy and Angel dance. Yeah, that's a great one. he's just the best isn't he I just love him and would like to have sex with him alright I'm going to run you through some contenders some are very heartfelt some are more like dad humor the Zeppo did you eat all the jelly did you want a jelly I always have a jelly I'm always the one that says let's have a jelly in the mix great stuff bad girls Wesley telling Giles he has an emotional problem and Giles, like, real full Star Wars energy here. My attachment to this layer is not a problem. Consequences, this is another heartfelt one. Buffy's talking about faith. I'm not going to give up on her, and Giles says so sincerely that I think she stands a chance. Oh, God. Enemies. Oh, I love this. In Enemies, the Book of Essential stuff with the demon, a couple different moments where Giles is like, the state of demon-dom, it's what's going on here. when he says demons after money whatever happened to the stone beating heart of a virgin no one has any standards anymore and then later he's like again see no standards any self-respecting demon should be living in a pit of filth or a nice crypt um some some the no standards stuff is real dad core to me earshot uh a new fabric softener can cause irritation this is wonderful and then we already graduation day part two we already talked about the coffee tea thing but tea is soothing, I wish should be tense, and then handing Buffy the diploma, I'd say you'd earned it. I'd say you earned it. So dadcore. My pick is from prom as well, though. Before the dance, when Giles learns that Angel's not taking Buffy to the dance and that he's leaving town and says, Buffy, I'm sorry, I don't really know what to say. I understand that this sort of thing requires ice cream of some kind. Like, I just love that. Everything in that whole stretch where Buffy is just like, I am not going to, I think I'm stepping on one of my later categories, but like I'm not going to let my friends be deprived of this night, even though I'm not going to have it anymore. And the fact that Giles is somebody who she's like able to open up to here, and then he just wants to find a way to comfort her, even though there's like, there is no comfort, which is lovely. He's the best. They're the best. that was the most daddy moment and you have a clip for this i do and i'll be watching it on lube for the rest of my life carlos how did it go he's uh did quite well on the obstacle field still a little sloppy though you feel up to taking buffy out or shall i now the most important thing is that he has a lollipop in his hand and in this entire scene he is twirling the lollipop or sucking on the lollipop and i found to be. Mesmerizing? Life-altering. DNA remapping. Life-altering in its impact. Okay, great. He is so sexy holding that lollipop and licking that lollipop and putting Wesley in his place. That lollipop and putting Wesley in his place. It is important and powerful and memorable, and I'm thankful for it. You've already written a really convincing dissertation on Giles and the Tuck, so I will let you have that. And I will give it to Giles stabbing the mayor with the rapier. That's my runner up. Yeah. I mean, again, I'm perturbed by how often this is a violent pick for me, but the rapier moment's really good. The instantaneous reach and stab. Yeah. Like, because the mayor is attacking. That's one spunky little girl you've raised. I'm going to eat her attacking Buffy and Giles. It's just like, I'm going to kill you now. Yeah. Also, he does it left-handed. Yeah. It's just really hot. Yeah. Great. All right. When Willow cries, we cry. I feel like there's only really one answer for this. What is it? Oh, no. Is it her crying over Xander, sleeping with faith and consequences? She goes into the bathroom and just like. Commits one of the great sins, I think, which is sitting on a public toilet. With your clothes. Yeah. Oh, no. For me, it's a no. But I did find it very touching. Why don't you put the seat cover down on? I think even if you're just there for a cry, you've got to take your pants off. And put a seat cover down. I'm sorry. you have to. Hands off crying Jags in the bathroom. Is this a coping mechanism at work or in school? It's entirely possible. Hands off crying Jags. No comment. That is one of my two contenders. This is not actually a when Willow cries. She's not literally crying, but I think the emotion is so forceful here in Bad Girls when she it's when Buffy is more complicated than that, and Willow says, it's that exact thing that's taking me off. It's this whole Slayers-only attitude, since when wouldn't I understand? You talk to me about everything. It's like, all of a sudden, I'm not cool enough for you just because I can't kill things with my bare hands. I'll just, like, fucking get it. And I believe she's wearing overalls when she says it. The overall display this season from Willow is astonishing. There's a real, like, Mario-coded aspect to a lot of it, because there's a lot of, like, red shirts. Red with the overalls, yeah. the blue jeans but it's working for her um best guest star so i texted you last night to confirm the eligibility which we have been lax with but in theory is more than one episode but fewer than four for the stretch of episodes in question sure so i am picking anya even though i now know that she will be around for much longer anya is a great four episodes across season three and three episodes in the stretch of story that we're covering today she's in doppelganger land the prom and graduation day parlance pafield baby she's the best my so when i was trying to convince a friend of mine in college to watch buffy and i was trying to explain to her and it was i think season in season five i think season four season five and it's explaining the ani character because she's just like a source of like a lot of humor going forward in the show um and my friend who was like really into star trek she's like oh she's the data and i was like yeah she is the data she's just the sort of like i'm a demon stuck in this like i i don't understand your human ways what is going on here sort of stuff so like the the um post wish i just thought this was really smart on the heels of the wish to have to deploy her it's like okay now i'm stuck after my whole long life that i've lived i'm stuck as like a teenager with these other fucking teenagers what a nightmare i love that but to the humor point i got such a kick out of the xander the promposal yeah like men are evil will you go with me and like that's so funny and i wonder why not like it couldn't possibly have anything to do with your sailfish that killed me and then coming when she goes back and is like trying to convince him to leave town with her and laments that he won't and kind of laments the the state of romance and the way that romance makes you feel it's horrible no wonder i used to get so much work but when he's like my friend's lives are on the line and she gets mad and then says, fine, I hope you die. And he walks away and she says, aren't we going to kiss? That's like incredible. Anya, the best. Really good. Really, really good. I'm giving it to, in the Zeppo, so Michael Kudlitz, who plays one of the zombies in the Zeppo, is my friend Paul's uncle, Uncle Mike. And so he's in Band of Brothers and very famously in The Walking Dead. But before he showed up, before he was like a series regular in The Walking Dead, he was like, it was more like this, where Michael Kudlitz would just like crop up occasionally. And we would just go like, oh, it's Uncle Mike. Like, that's what we would do. Like, Leo pointing me before the Leo pointing me. We were just sort of like, oh, it's Uncle Mike. So Uncle Mike's in this stretch of episodes. So I got to give it to Michael Kudlitz. Great stuff. Best high school is hell metaphor. This is the end of this category. I guess we could do college as hell. That's certainly on the offing in season four. But it's graduations, end of an era on this show. It's a high school show, and it won't be that. Like, I have a real issue with high school shows when they go beyond that. This is why, like, season three, for many reasons, is the peak for me, because this is a high school show. We have a really organic, like, setting in place for everyone to constantly interact with each other. It's like, it's not the same when you go to college. Like, even if you went to college with all of your high school friends, you would not have, like, the same classes. The campus is more sprawling, like, all this sort of stuff like that. And so, like, the setting that lets everyone naturally and constantly interact is gone. Angel's gone. Cordelia's gone. Like, and those are in many ways, like, integral to me to, like, what the show is. So that's not really, I mean, graduation day is the best high school is hell metaphor. but like I just wanted to like yeah memorialize this this this setting this premise of the show I have a real um I I'm I'm very intrigued to see how it feels in college in the college years I was a real saved by the bell the college years kid I just loved it it made me feel so excited to grow up and like get a haircut get a new haircut in a common room in a dorm that like you then realize nobody is ever going to have a common room like that for it's for the whole floor it's not for just a few of you but i love i lived in a quad in the dorm so we did have a common room that was just for freshman year yeah immediately yeah we had we were in a quad damn california it wasn't like every room had that but like most of those were doubles but we were in a quad so it was like two two girls in each like tiny closet bedroom and then i mean it wasn't like the common room and say about the college years but like we had like a living room cabinets that's very nice we had a like all of our desks like basically the beds fit in the like closet bedroom and then all of our desks were out here but we had like beanbags and like everyone from the floor would like come in and hang out in our room because we got it in Syracuse we got it by junior year the freshman year we and this felt like the height of luxury Syracuse had something called the split double which was instead of just one open room where you are seeing each other and do everything too much there was a divider that went three quarters of the way up the middle of the room and it was depending on the dorm, either the closets or your desks. So you had like some privacy, even though it was just one room. Well, I will say at UC Davis, where I matriculated, you didn't live in the dorms after freshman year. So like the dorm experience was like a freshman year experience. And then you had to live off campus unless you were an RA, which I was one year. I was an RA. So I love knowing this about you. Did you not know I was an RA? It sounds new to me, but it's also possible I just forgot. I mean, my brain is melting. That doesn't seem true. I'm the one who forgets everything. I'm the one where you're like, you already did the notes for this episode. That was a good moment. Carl was like, you already sent me your clips. I was like, I did. Great stuff. To me, this is total coin flip between prom and graduation day. I guess it has to be graduation day. How could it not be? And weirdly, the mayor's speech, I thought, really captured something. It's going to do the whole thing. That's so funny. Journeys end and what is a journey? It's just the distance travel time spent. No, it's what happens on the way. Like, you know, that was really lovely. But in prom, I, man, first of all, the comedy of what's that, a demon, and Buffy sang a prom dress. I think you're getting hilarious. Can you ever get your head out of the hell mouth? I'd be delighted to. But Buffy telling Angel, I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing, but I'm certainly not going to let some subhuman ruin it for the rest of them. I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing. Like, it hit me so hard. That was really, really devastating. Buffy doing her slayage. Not really because she leaves Tucker alive with one hellhound still in the room. Very curious. But she just sort of shakes her prom dress out in his garbage bag. And then shows up looking like a million bucks. As always. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. All right. Cringiest low budget moment. This has to be the mayor. The mayor, head splitting in two or the snake. But I don't know how close you watched it. And I kind of wish I had clipped it. But in Earshot, there's a fight with the lunch lady, which is one of the worst double moments of the entire life. It's just like a grown-ass man in the lunch lady's dress getting hit. And it's like really funny. So I also want to put that out there. Fantastic inclusion and worthy inclusion. I just like, bro looks like a MS Paint project here. And as we're always saying, bring back the puppets. Oh, bring back the puppets. Definitely should have been a puppet. When he says, well, gosh, it's like we're all thinking it too. Well, gosh. and we had gone so far like we had really come a long way since like season one and season two in season three and then they're just sort of like gingerbread happens and then this is worse than gingerbread you'll see it's like snaking through the hall it's pretty tough this is a worse backslide than Cordelia's yeah I agree I really agree all right Angel's broodiest I've been to hell moment I have a clip for this ooh you still my girl always with not a lot of love and a deep amount of disrespect to jk rowling this is my like This is your always. Are you still my girl? Always. This is it. This is it for me. Oh, man. That was a great one. His face looks so bad there. Oh, my God. Are you still my girl? Boy. Right? Like, I'm breaking up with you or like, oh, no. That's when Buffy's like, we need some distance. It's actually like a little choppy, I would say, at the end of the season. Buffy's like, all of a sudden, like, I need some distance after enemies. And then he's like, hey, actually, maybe we should have some distance. She's like, what do you mean? So it's a little up and down. But are you still my girl? Always. That's really, really good. really broody. And then also, I'm sorry, dancing to wild horses at prom. As I've mentioned a few times, my pals with a buffering podcast put on a Buffy prom and they play wild horses like no fewer than five times at the buffering prom that they do. Great stuff. I, yeah, just, I mean, it's really everything that is a part of the multi-episode. Like I have to leave town to get my own spinoff. But also I'll, you know, say that you deserve more than this freak show protracted breakup over a handful of episodes. Shortly after Joyce's visit in prom, when he says you deserve more, you deserve something outside of demons and darkness, I mean you should be with someone who could take you into the light. I was like, that made me sad. You have no idea how fast it goes, Buffy. I thought that was very impactful. When the I want my life to be with you, I don't, that is just we're fully in two socks, Nymeria. I'm going to make you go away. territory but get out of here telling Buffy that he's going to leave town without saying goodbye in graduation day part 2 was just all time stuff though it's like the mist and then he's gone I'm just going to go you understand it's like not really no actually do you feel like that's the writers being like we couldn't really write this scene so let's just do standing in the mist it'll be really impactful it is powerful all right funniest moment you have a clip Buffy when were you going to tell me all right busted i didn't think you'd miss them you were accepted to northwestern university you're such an asshole i couldn't help it i'm sorry i couldn't help it oh god okay thank you for that um you mentioned annie's prom proposal which is very very important i'm gonna also give it this for a thousand years i wielded the powers of the wish i brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared and worshipped across the mortal globe, and now I'm stuck at Sunnydale High mortal child in a flunky mask. I'm a coffee. The delivery of all this stuff is so good. Incredible stuff. Two Xander runners-off. In the Zeppo, this is more of an editing pic, but the cut from Xander saying, we'll handle it together you know i'm here for you just tell me what to do and then we cut to him killed me that was so so so good and i really liked an enemies when zander says he's bribed willie for the demon's location and then says the council reimburse for that kind of stuff giles is like did you get a receipt just love that it's kind of like exchange that they could have had at literally any point just very humorous uh i have to because of my professional background shout out face not going to be on the cover of sanity fair obviously i thought of you thank you um willow waving in her vampire willow outfit and oz's face like when he when he understands what's going on here but her little like this i believe it's in the credits like going forward so like it's a a key little moment yeah well did you try looking inside the sofa in hell incredible very important he's gonna do the entire speech um and then this i just love it when they let david Boreadas be funny, which is very rarely, right? And Buffy, be careful with the gift. A lot of things, as you said, a lot of things that seem strong and good and powerful, they can be painful. Like, say, immortality? Exactly. I'm dying to get rid of it. Funny. I'm a funny guy. It's really good stuff. You made me laugh, too, with the choices. You never take me anywhere new. What about that fire demon nest in that cave at the beach? I thought that was a nice change of face. That was very funny. I like that. Wesley's intro, I won't read the exchange because I can't do it justice, but like, Giles is just sort of like, Giles and Buffy are just sort of like sitting there. You know, like, is he evil? Not in the strictest sense, but just sort of like, Wesley's just like, yammering on about Gwendolyn Post and all this sort of stuff like that, and Giles is just like, already done. Day one, he's done. Or like, when he orders Buffy to do something and she's like, when Giles does it, I usually get a cookie. Very good. Oh man. Great stuff. Most emotional moment. I have a clip. Class protector. Class protector. Guys, take a moment to deal with this. We survived. It was a hell of a battle. Not the battle. High school. We're taking a moment. and we're done always undercut with a with a joke right but um as i've mentioned a million times i was the same age so like this is when i graduated high school and so it's like 1999 it's a real moment in time even if i did not see this episode until july um but also everyone fighting and some of them dying larry and harmony and like all the kids like you know legend getting to defend themselves and not just being like right you know vampire fodder as they've been for vampire demon fodder as they've been for three seasons. I don't understand what's happening, but I have some agency and role to play this. I got very emotional closing on the poster. Sunnydale High, 99, the future is ours. I was like, God. Do you want to talk more about class protector moment? I think we've hit it. It's just incredibly touching. Buffy Summer's class protector and the look of gratitude on her face. Really, really wonderful. Really, really wonderful. And her response to that Giles moment, I had no idea that children of mass could be so gracious. She says every now and then people can surprise you. Like when so much of your experience is about people disappointing you, you know, that the thing they reveal about themselves is like a letdown or a scandal or an affront. For the surprise to be an empowering and like collective embrace is just lovely. Perfect little moment. That's a little how it starts. We're not good friends. most of us never found the time to get to know you but that doesn't mean we haven't noticed you you know and I think for people who feel like they went through high school like unnoticed and stuff like that this is just like a fantasy fulfillment moment of like everyone's like we noticed you doing all these things in the shadows what an incredible season of television it's great I'm excited for season four when are you going to start do you think got a few things going on this week and next week are I would describe as demon-laden hellscape. So, but not this weekend, but next weekend. So the, what date is that? Let's see. I'm on my computer. I don't know where the calendar is. The 27th? Friday, February 27th? That weekend. The weekend of February into March. We're going to get into season four. Anything you were like, what are you most looking forward to? Giles Giles Sort of embarrassing But it's true Does he have sex with anybody in season 4? Yes Oh my god Is season 4 when he plays the guitar? I think that's 5 Or no it's a I think maybe end of season 4 Yeah season 4 I can't wait And I know there's a very big episode coming in season 4 So I'm excited about that I know some big things happen in season 4 So I'm excited about that Some new characters Guessing back Spike. Spike. Hell yeah. Let's fucking go. Welcome to the opening credits, James Marsters. All right. We'll be back with season four of Buffy Vampire Slayer. Thank you to Carla Shiroboga for sitting in this very small room with us. We'll be back with Talk to Thrones in our sort of usual space. But if all goes according to plan, we will be in our new studios. I don't want to jinx it. Maybe I just did. Tempting the fucking fates here. We are allegedly going to be in our new studio space next week when we're back with our deep dive, et cetera, et cetera. So we'll see you then. Thanks to Arjuna Ramkapal for his work always. He's always just juggling schedules constantly. Thank you to a Jomia dinner. Great work on some deep dive clips this week on the social. Go check it out on the Instagram Reel. Mallory running down all of Dunk's hits when we got to see the footage for that. It's a really incredible stuff. It's a very chill conversation in the comments on that post. Oh, yeah. Really, really, everyone's vibing with this. Nobody understands irony. it's fine thank you to Donald for helping out today exactly and thank you to Mallory Rubin thank you my darling Joanna Robinson pod protector we'll see you soon bye