You Should Watch ‘The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins.’ Plus, ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E2 and ‘Industry’ S4E3.

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now! Hello and welcome to the watch! My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me in the studio, a man who knows books, our brain movies, it's Andy Greenwald! Are you referring to our new favorite show? Yes, the fall and rise of Reggie Dinkins, which we are going to be discussing today as well as industry episode 3, season 4, and night of the 7 Kingdoms episode 2, season 1. Greenwald, you can hit us up if you're listening to watch at spotify.com to send us fan mail. It's the only kind of mail I'm interested in. You can follow us on IG at the watchbot underscore and you can watch us on YouTube at ranger-tv. You can also watch us on spotify where I hope you listen to us. You look beautiful. Your hair looks great. You're so nice to me, but I think you look good. Thanks man. I like that sweater. I got it at Uniglo. No free ads. So you're implying that you were paid? No, I'm saying that's like, that's just what I did. As I bought a sweater at Uniglo, I was getting another stuff and I was like, I don't, I like the look of that. And they got a free ad. So, more of like a document of my existence, you know, when Phoebe's at a town, life gets pretty small. You know? Okay. Um, look man, we're going to discuss shorting stocks and tall nights, but we should talk a little bit about this weekend. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I always struggle when the fact that like our job is to talk about TV shows and it's incredibly lucky to have this job and I think it's, there's value in talking about art and entertainment and being a diversion for people. But often we start the podcast by talking about how we're doing and how the weekend was and we are Americans living in America in 2026 and this weekend was horrifying and disgusting and deeply, deeply unsettling and depressing. Um, I don't know if we have anything to add really to the larger discourse other than that we are watching. We are living through this. We are, I can say we, like we, we love the city of Minneapolis and the state of Minnesota and we are thinking of them and it's a tough time to be doing much of anything right now. It's really like taking a drill to your brain to, to spend your entire weekend engaging with this, but that's what I did. I'm as angry as I've ever been. Yeah. Uh, and this second administration is going worse than I could possibly have imagined, uh, even if that was possible. I'll just say that there are plenty of examples of, um, you know, things I've read about or things I've seen about people from Minneapolis standing up for each other and showing up for each other that are the best qualities of Americans. I agree. So that's, I guess I'll leave it at that. Uh, we can get into like talking about regular TV stuff. I mean, like, did you spend like, were you on the news like all weekend or? No, I mean, I, I think I, I had an experience that a lot of listeners and a lot of people probably had, which is the slow motion drip, drip horror of being alerted to the news on Saturday following the news on Saturday, well also attempting to parent and trying to keep some world separate. Um, I was tempted to parent too, but people are like, we're good. These are trick. I've always thought you to be a warm president at the parks of Highland Park, the playgrounds and, you know, if you want to come out of your route a little faster there, just so you know, I know it's not my business. So you're parenting at high school football practice. You have such an idyllic view of what this would be like. Zero to 16, no involvements. Suddenly that you're like, Jim Bogg, Peter, just, exactly drawn up the, coach, coach Taylor shows up. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know and I think that, you know, people even choosing to listen to this pot or rightfully choosing not to listen to this pot or watch these TV shows right now, people should do what feels best for them to take care of themselves as well because we all have to be in this for a while. Um, and there's no one healthy way to do anything. I think I, I mean, I, I personally do not subscribe to the idea that you can't do both and that like, you know, to watch. Night of the seven kingdoms is somehow participating in the, the, the sort of pain killer that they're administering to you so that you don't keep your eyes open to other things. But I, I think you can do both, but I think, uh, it would just be weird not to make a comment about this at the top of the podcast. Uh, where do you want to start? Do you want to start with industry? You want to start with night at the seven kingdoms? You want to start with our little, our little new discovery that we made. Maybe we should for fun. Yeah. Let's do that. Yeah. I think that for both of us, this was a little bit of a ton. I guess what? It's our podcast. We can do what we want. So for now, rather than starting with the Game of Thrones franchise or one of our most beloved series of the last five or six years in industry, let's start with a show that peacock doesn't seem to want to let you know it exists. Well, it is not a peacock show. I know. It's on NBC. It is an NBC original comedy show that peacock show up on peacock. I know what I watch, brother. Yeah. Okay. And it's a lot of 30 rock fixed the Algo. I had to search for the fallen rise of Reggie Dinkins multiple times because I watched this first episode a couple of times because it felt real good to watch it. It really does. This is the new show from Robert Karlock, who people may know that name from 30 rock. And did he work on chemistry as well? He is Tina Fey's longtime writing and producing partner. So he was her right hand man and co-writer form 30 rock for chemistry mid for EP on girls five. They work together. Okay. And Sam Means also co-creator of this series, which is Starr Strasie Morgan as a disgraced ex-New York jet, who is trying to make a comeback in terms of like his public perception not on the field via a puff piece sports documentary directed by Daniel Radcliffe who plays a guy named Arthur Tobin Arthur Tobin, a documentary and from the University of Maryland School of Documentary Anime and Portography. I believe this is full circle. And just the little things. Like if you miss the Joe Creations for the poster, his posters that he brought with him. Sorry, because if you start laughing, you just like right of telling the jokes again. What are some of the movies he's made? One is like called He War Shoes. It was like Ling Ling don't eat that or something about the panda. Like it's immaculate. Yeah, man. It's got that 30 rock pace and that 30 rock like depth of a joke. Queen Erica Alexander from Living Single plays Reggie's ex-wife but forever business partner and agent. Courageant, yeah. She's incredible. And a secret weapon, Bobby Moynihan who is always funny in everything plays Dusty I believe. Who is a backup kicker for the jets when Reggie was there and his friend regardless of race? And then Dusty does the Wakanda salute. Look man. I know that 30 Rock has had multiple life cycles as a rewatch and Kimmy Schmidt as well and people know like the kind of comic sensibility that's going to be included in the show. But I just I think there was some ads during football like it's not like it's been hidden. No, and it did it did fairly well. They debuted it on NBC linear NBC after the playoff game last week. This was like taking like happy pulls for me. I really, really, really, really enjoyed watching this. No one writes jokes better than these people. And no one delivers these jokes, maybe better than Tracy Morgan. It's so funny and it seems so effortless for them that it was like both hilarious but deeply inspiring. Yeah. I loved it so much. I never wanted it to be over. Yeah. Now did you want 10 episodes waiting for you or did you were you happy to have just the one and like piece parcel it out? I definitely was ready for more but like it does help frame it and just to be like because I like you. Maybe this is one of the few areas we don't talk about a lot but I do rewatch 30 rock. And every time I rewatch it, I am in awe of just what the construction of it and the jokes and how every time you watch an episode no matter how many times you've seen it, there's the third level joke. Yeah, something happening in the background of it. But in the midst of like the relationship to that show is what we have it and so we can just drink deeply from the well. It was kind of nice to really examine the diamond chart precision of their writing and construction in the in that old familiar 21 minute broadcast format. Yeah. That's so hard to do and this has a higher concept in that it's documentary but then it's not documentary and then they had to advance the personal storylines and the emotional thing. I mean, sure. But they just know how to do it. They also have enough scratch to work with that they are doing things like recreating Reggie Dinkins' old McDonald's. What's it for the MVP? The McDonald's Ville. It's like Ville Pack. It's incredible. And it'll be like a pretty authentic 90s McDonald's commercial. So there's and then Reggie does some like add in Japan where kids are hitting him with nerf bats and he's like, what is this advertisement for? I do think we're helping our listeners heal if you just laugh about this show. Well, I just think I feel bad because now we just spoiled nine jokes in it but you're 900 jokes in it. Yeah. So please, please, please go watch this. What is your feeling? I kind of feel like maybe this is the first time you've ever seen Daniel Radcliffe act. Is that possible? No. I... Did you see Equus on Broadway? No. I know you didn't see Marley We Were Along which was amazing. But I mean some of the thought on Broadway. Relax. And it was releasing theaters recently. You could check it out. We can't both brag about that stuff. Why? Because you don't have the reaction that I do to years things. You know, we can't just be like trading back and forth like the cool theater experiences that's what keeps us in the top 200 of entertainment podcasts all these years. That's what keeps us coming out. I'm just embarrassed that I may have... I know that I've seen Daniel Radcliffe in a movie or a TV show. I wasn't trying to call you out. Right. I think it's possible that you haven't and that's okay. I mean, obviously I'm conversing in the Potter movie. But I wasn't coming at you. But not... This isn't a gotcha podcast. Yeah. All right. I was going to say, what'd you think? Like, here's this kid. It's not gotcha. It's what you... It's what you... It's like the opposite of Nikki Fink. Told you. What would you think? Uh, of Daniel Radcliffe in the show. He looks like he's having the time of his fucking life. Yes, this is what I wanted to get to. If you were Daniel Radcliffe and they were like, hey, you stand in between Bobby Moynihan and Tracy Morgan and Eric Alexander and they're going to do fucking a million jokes a minute. Are you? And you have... And you can be funny too. Yes. And you have a young family and you want to live in New York and you just commute to Silver Cup Studios or... And you throw Halpert face every couple minutes. It's just sick. It's great. I also have to say, and I'm only bringing this up. Maybe I should start doing that on this show. I've been doing it for eight weeks. I saw it. You've never seen me do it? Oh. Um, there was a... There is a non-z... I don't think this is likely, but there is a non-zero chance that two or so weeks ago walking in the Highland Park neighborhood of Los Angeles, my daughter's and I walk past Daniel Radcliffe carrying his child. Now, this is now like a sliding doors moment within my family because they didn't see and then they wanted me to drive slowly back around the neighborhood. And then we were like trying to like cross-reference like, why would he be in Los Angeles? And ultimately I was like, I don't think it was him because this person was average height. Right. And I think that Daniel Radcliffe is slightly below average height. I mean, what's that? What's below average to you? Like 5'7. Exactly 5'7. I would say that. I just grabbed that number. You're like a prank. But my point is, yeah. I think... Because a lot of actors are, by the way. Yeah, no, because they're delicate features are smaller and then it emote more for the camera. Right. Like Jeremy Allen White is here in the studio with us. You can't see him. But believe me, you could really sell it. I think that I bring it up both because I'm curious if anyone else had Daniel Radcliffe of sightings, but then also like, there is no good outcome of that. Like, what if we had seen him and it was Daniel Radcliffe and we locked eyes and my kids were like excited or impressed? There's no good interaction. Right. There's no like cool, dad way to be like... We have the same glasses. We both work on Harry Potter. Yeah. I'm sure he would adapt you up. He's like, now you're part of the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood of Wizards. He would have dapped me up. Wizards Brotherhood is probably... Yeah. Not a great time for them. Nope. That does sound good. Okay. So we highly recommend... That's a second episode this week. I don't even fall. Fallen Rise of Regidincons. I don't know what night it goes up. I'm sure you can check local listings. So I'll find out for you. We have to be able to support Regidincons. It shows like this. Okay. So here's the thing with Regidincons. You got this first episode and then it's not back until for real. It's a mid-season replacement. So it's March 2nd is when it'll really start airing on Mondays at 8.30pm. Right. It was originally going to premiere in February 23rd, but they give it a little sneak preview. Don't know why I closed my computer. Because we're done for the day. I just did. This is the only thing we wanted to talk about today, clearly. Okay. Do you want to talk about industry or night? Let's do night and then let's move on to industry. Night and seven kingdoms. Yeah. Episode two opens with some swing in D. Yeah. House of D. It features some targues, which I was pretty, pretty into these guys. Yeah. Okay. I want to know, give me your ticket. Give me what? No, I want to know what you're into. What's moving you? Well, it's a 33-minute episode of Game of Thrones. So, which is inconceivable if you've ever dealt with Game of Thrones television before. The idea that they would be in and out, that they would tell a quick, not even like, I don't know, discernible act structure because it's really about this guy trying to get into this tournament, trying to make a name for himself in West Rose. And the different characters he comes across along the way. And I thought it had some really great notes, but the thing that jumped off the screen to me was the arrival of the Ternarian's, which obviously suggests some sort of adversary in this whole adventure. And Finn Bennett is apparently a great high-cheek-bone asshole. There's no shortage of those. Arian Brightflame, I believe his name is. I love that you know this. And Sam Spurl plays Mekar, who has the two fell sons. Wasn't Bernie Carvel was... Was Baylor. Yeah, he seems pretty chill. He's nice. Yeah, he's a reasonable executive, I think. End of the king. Honestly, I yearn for that. That's not a bad baseline. Targaryens? Are we sure? Yeah, I'd like to set a floor. Yeah, like some... And then set the floor on fire. Burn down the whole castle. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the interesting magic tricks of this show thus far is that I believe this to be the case, that this is suitable for noobs. Like, you can watch this show with no knowledge of West Rose, or even having not really watched Game of Thrones, and you kind of get it. And I think that's a remarkable achievement. Yes, if you watched Game of Thrones the way I am broadly aware of what happens on Harry Potter, like, I'm sure you could engage with this and be like, right, like, there's that family, but I think it would help to have watched Game of Thrones a little bit. I attempted... I watched this episode in two ways. I was... I was starting to say in two chunks, and I was like 15 minutes and 15 minutes. I'm life-maxing right now. I can't focus for too long. You know what? You were having your sleep problems? Yeah. I was wondering whether you should have flipped that into life-maxing. Oh, just owning it. You know, the guy was just like, I wake up at midnight bang. I've got 12 more hours on you working. You know, like, maybe you should have been like... I did. There was the day that I slept for, I believe, 80 minutes, and I was like, well, pre-dawn is when you're going to really engage with a landman this week. And I felt much worse. Those guys love Sunrise's on landman. You think Sunset's? Sure. They just love staring at him. I'm missing something. I feel like I... That would be life-maxing. Anyway, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to worry. It's just that I watched the beginning of the episode, and I was like, I still enjoy these characters. I enjoy the banter. I enjoy the tenor and tone of what's going on here. But there were a couple lines that I was like, I'm not... I realized I wasn't fully catching, and I don't think it's just because of my declining hearing. And you refused the subtitle. So I put on subtitles. Okay. And I was surprised at the volume of like, ah, Blackfire Brightblade. Yes. I saw your Sarah once at a Heavittsmorn. And I was like, okay, Dorx, like, you really fucking went for it. Like, they're still saying this shit, and I was enjoying the show without it. Yeah, that's right. They're just like, ah, this is the Westerosi word for waking up and eating breakfast. I'm like, okay. All right. But my point wasn't that that sucks. My point was that they integrated it well. Sure. It doesn't matter. I think that's really important. I think it's super important. And I think it's very hard. And this is all I promise. This is a compliment. We're going to get there. I think this is all in the service for something that has been relatively unique in our entertainment, which is something that can service everybody. It's very rare that this happens. And, you know, I don't know what the numbers are on it. But I think that the fact that they have found a new tunnel gear to tell these stories is like really fabulous. And important, does whatever extent, you know, you find Game of Thrones important. Yeah. It's like, it's funny. It's tender. You know, there's a little bit of mystery to it. There's a little bit of romance to it. There's a little bit of menace to it. And the stakes like this can be done. The most exciting thing that happens in this episode is tug of war. Yes. I really appreciate it that. You know? I don't feel at all when you're watching. And what are we waiting for here? No. Well, there's a couple of things that are fun. One, we actually have no idea if Duncan is good at being a knight. They're really hiding the ball in that one. That's fine. In terms of fighting. Yeah, because in terms of his heart, he's all there. He's pure, but otherwise he's like that. That's a measurable I can see. But other than that, all we've seen is basically the westerosy equivalent of him posting up against a chair in his workout video. You know, I'm still trying to get the crannly money from last week. I feel like that was good for us. Was that like a G? That guy? Yeah. Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. The guy who played against in an MGGM against a chair with nobody at it. Was it the same chair Clint Eastwood debated at the RNC? That was a big year for chairs. I wish we could go back to that. Mr. Obama, I disagree with you. That wasn't that long ago. I know. Anyway, yeah, we don't know that. So that's exciting and interesting. But there's also, now, look, somewhere off camera Mallory and Joe could be laughing at the ignorance of this comment I'm about to make. But because I am trusting the show, as it's been presented to me, I feel confident making the statement, I don't think Duncan is going to be decapitated in episode four or have a Jamie Lannistered one of his arms. Take that to Calhche. You're right. Right. Yeah. I thought Calhche was an SOS. I was so confused by what you were saying. I'm just talking about making a futures bet. Right. No, that's good. That's good. I was mixing it up with Clarna. I was just thinking about all the ways we're bankrupting ourselves. Clarna is the way you can pay for a burrito three times, right? Yeah. They tell you three times. And then Harper's turntow shorts your burrito purchase. I think there's going to short time. Short the Clarna, yeah. I think that's right. Anyway, that is also a different relationship with watching a show like this. And honestly, watching a lot of prestige television shows, this stuff still works if you take out the dread. The dread is not an essential component of contemporary television. It was kind of the special sauce that boosted the last 20 years of the stuff because it was definitely absent from the years of watching like Empty Nest and Golden Girls or whatever. Sure. Although those Golden Girls were quite up there in age. Imagine the prestige version of it with a specter of death is looming over every episode. Anyway, I find that really, really pleasant and really, really enjoyable. I think they're doing a lot of, I mean, they are as they should, banking on the talent of just the acting talent that you can get. You mentioned Bernie Kavell, Sam Spruel, people we weren't familiar with. I don't think I'd seen Finn Bennett before. He's an interactive night country. Oh, that's that guy. I've enjoyed his work. Yeah, he's really good. He's a chameleon, let's say. I think that they got, man, they've geolocated like these sort of tired, but malevolent, but maybe not all malevolent, old, like fading monarchs in the way that those guys are playing these the targues. And, you know, they don't have the Targaryens no longer in this show. There are no dragons, you know, not, it's not a choice. They've said that the last of the dragons are gone, you know? Did they say that on this show? Yes. That was before I turned the subtitle on. But also, I didn't care. I want to be clear. Yeah. Makes no difference to me. I didn't think for budgetary reasons alone, I knew that one wasn't about to fly in and land in the middle of the parade grounds. Yeah. And he was like, Duncan, you sure are tall. And they high five, freeze frame. I just like their way that they are characterized and the way that the three actors so far playing the targues have kind of agreed on like a tone. You know, it's always interesting to me when that's good direction, that's good writing. And that's good ensemble acting is to be like, where are we at? Like, you're going to be like this. Right. I'm going to be like this, but none of us are in a different show. None of us are like really hamming it up. I believe that Daniel Ings, who's doing an incredible job, is Lionel Baratheon, who we get a little bit of tug of war with. Also, you know what was really cool, what was relatable was the interaction that Duncan has with the night's garden is fancy outfit. And he's just like, I'm just son of a crabber. He's a fucking Nepo baby. Yeah. How you feel about that? I was like, that's the problem with our economy too. Nepo babies? Well, I think there's a couple other things going on too. I don't know. Let's just do a game. We just shout out the problems. Do you think I'm a Nepo baby? In the realm of criticism? Yeah. Yeah. I do. And frankly, it's always rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, do you not be in the allegations? Yeah, it's true. It's true. You know what I mean? There were a lot of opportunities for you that you could have taken. We're at print media, you know, newspapers. Yeah. You could have stayed in that lane. Mr. Gerald Inquirer was like, Chris, you are the prince who has promised free. I think there were a couple other points. One, I didn't know. I guess maybe I've seen, have you seen full team scrimmage jousting before? No, but that was fucking awesome. Yeah, that was cool. That almost made me be like, we should get like multiple football games played at the same time. Like the four box. Yeah. No, but like in all of them on that snowy mile high stadium. Yeah. And have like the sea hawks playing at one end against their hands. That's pretty cool. And then they have to fight in the middle. I don't know. That's kind of quidditch, by the way. Daniel Radcliffe could have told you better. Did you write it to him? But yeah. Yeah, I think that that was like an effective, like a really effective way of showing like Duncan's lack of preparedness for what he's getting into. You know. He was a little stressed. Yeah, I think he was like, this is faster. This is more violent than I thought it was. You hear stories about it. Or you squire for somebody and it's like one thing, but it's another thing to be like, shit, that's going to be me. Or remember when the last time we saw jousting on a Game of Thrones show and it was intercut with violent childbirth. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. I don't know if you remember, but the real battleground is the womb. Was that the end? That was the pilot episode of House of the Dragon. Oh, that's right. It's the real battleground son. You the womb's not up there. No, you have to think about it. Yeah, you do. Yeah, thinking about the womb is a real battleground. And nippo babies like these are all problems. Do I have spelled out for you? I see the big board. Last thing, I would be curious maybe we'll talk to Ira Parker at some point or you guys will be could ask this all the right question for you to take my answer off air. Jay. Like did they have in their edit process? Did they have non-super fans eyes on the product? Meaning I would say as someone who is relatively unspoiled but not wholly unspoiled. And I don't think this will spoil anything. A lot of lingering shots on egg this episode. I would say thumb is heavy on the scale. And that's just good storytelling. It's like this kid's not like the other kids. You know, because of. I think also just because of like his alarm at seeing the Targaryen's arrive or his knowledge of. Maybe watch House of the Dragon season one and two. He's like, oh my god, we're all going to be stuck talking to a tree for six weeks. Fuck. Thought we were going to have fun. That's it. That's probably the thing. Yeah. You know, so you don't feel like you're being over. I mean, there's only. For half hours left. Right. So you don't feel like we're being overly indicated like anything's being. No, I think it's just like decent. I mean, clearly like. He's important. You know, this kid. Yeah. Yeah. It seems important. But how important will be interesting. You know, how important and how like I like the idea that they can tell stories in this world without everybody being. Like, a Messiah or an archvillain. And it's very. I never thought I would say this about a game of throwing. You go back to like the moment of like Jamie and Brienne doing their like road trip. That's like to some people maybe even myself included. That's like the best throwing gets. And so it's nice to have a show about that. Let's get into industry. Yeah. In a lot of ways. I think that this could have been. I mean, they needed to have the first episode to introduce new characters and to introduce new stakes. And that first episode of this season was largely about tender. And it's relationship to the only fans ask company that I can't. Siren. Siren. And the Calpan characters dismissal from the CEO role. Is he one and done? Do you think? I would imagine we will see him at some point going knowing the way industry. Recycles characters. It's not even recycled characters, but people come back for their. They're pound of flesh. Yeah. You know what I mean when they get wronged. Or not. Maybe they just come back and get a job like Kenny and everybody else. It's been remarked upon by us and by many other people. And I believe by Mickey and Conrad and talking about the show that this is a soft reboot. You're rebuilding the plane mid air in some ways. And so because of that, I think that this episode also functions as a season premiere in some ways. Because at least in terms of now we have established a new company with Harper and Eric. They have brought on some familiar faces and some unfamiliar faces to work with them. By the end of the episode, you've sort of got the Avengers getting into an elevator. And they're thunderbolts. Sure. That's a good way of putting it. And the meantime, Henry has emerged from his winter of discontent and taken over this role as CEO that could be somewhat ornamental. But seems like he's taking it much more seriously. And he's brought Yasmin along with him to be his comms consultant and to just be his mind herb. Yeah, he's right, right hand woman. And it just felt like this, this episode had the thriller pacing that I think the show thrives on. Even though I enjoy the slices of life and the kind of more the moodier pieces. So what did you think of episode three? Well, I want to start with what you said because I think that's hugely important. Every week we've talked about the season, I've been marveling like the, who's that dude who just climbed the skyscraper? Alex Hano. Yeah. Perhaps not literally similar in terms of risk, but. But so perhaps that's a bit grandiose, but I will say it would be great if when he was doing that, you could have like why, you know, if you had any or piece and it was like, Alex, do you think this is more or less impressive than what Mickey and Connor getting it? Doing the soft free booth for industry season for back across the pot. I do watch the show though with a perhaps slightly slightly less, but still a remarkable appreciation and respect for the risk. It is also as we joked about last week a remarkable counterpoint to a show like Landman that basically took an entire season to do what they did almost in the off season between between seasons three and season four. One of the greatest things about industry is its unwavering commitment to always being the most extra slash best version of itself and it just has. Complete disinterest story wise in what Mickey and Conrad are not interested. It just doesn't deal with it. And I think that's incredibly good writing example of what you're talking about. So this episode picks up we learn, you know, in a throwaway comment that it's been one month since the last episode. I like the people who make the show have no interest in how Henry set up his CEO office or his decision making to bring Yasmin on or her reaction to it. Or how they found this weird crumbling post Nazi Austrian bank to be their front. Yeah. Similarly, I loved the way season three ended for Harper and Eric and all the characters that we have been invested in as the status quo crumbled around them. It worked. It was really effective storytelling and it was very dramatic and compelling. That said, I don't think I'm interested in her life and career at Boston. Neither were they. I'd not really interested in Eric's retirement or his life away. It doesn't matter how they got him back. I want them back together. And once you accept that, I think because there isn't there is an urge in all things, especially as podcasters to explain everything. To make sure everyone is. It's also a very easy way to make many telephysic. 100% by being like, and then, and then. And maybe this is also an American thing of like, I'm going to show my work. I'm going to do all this extra and they're like, fuck it, that's funny. That's more interesting. That's go towards that. I would say like a lot of the discourse of online commentary about television shows is more or less spoiled down to. Plot holes and narrative sort of. Like basically pressure testing narratives and being like, well, they didn't say that he got across the street. So I assume he's invisible. You know, like. It's like this sort of stupidity that is now bread. Because they re-kept for the game for auger. What is the context of that observation? That was my spec on a night crawler from X-Men. Or it was the dark story about the chicken. That definitely got that definitely got pitched around. Do you last night when I was a, never mind, I don't have to digress. Is it a bad night crawler? No, it was about house of X and power of X. Okay, we'll put that. We're not doing Eagles talk this week. We'll do. Hickman talk. Yeah, we'll do nerd talk at the end. And the biggest example of what I'm trying to say in regards to industry is Rishi. One of the best characters on the show in many ways emblematic of the growth of the show from someone who was a background, not afterthought, but certainly not the focus to someone who forced his way through Saga Radius performance, but also his utility and humor and everything he brought to the show, forced his way into the main conversation. Last season ended for that character in a real like heat check moment, I would say for the show or his bookie shoots his wife point blanks is bookie or the like he's in hot he's owes this guy. Yeah. In front of him. And I was like, this is a real, they've really painted themselves into a corner here and it's a real challenge to themselves to get out of it. I didn't remember how they operate and what I mean by that is I am very interested in the version of Rishi we've seen so far in the season how they're using him. I don't really want to know what happened in the one minute five minutes five days five months after the event of the season. I don't really have that. I would imagine we don't they will probably at some point have to have the sweet pea Rishi. And Harper kind of conversation about like, you know, sweepy obviously feels like Rishi's actions led to his wife's death calling him a murder. He's like, I'm not exactly responsible for the leak of her only fans or whatever it was. Yes. Yeah, so that was but again, that's a smart use stern towels age are policies have yet to be defined. I would say that's accurate. We can circle back to that as well as tenders, certainly in terms of company offsights. But the best the best exploration and explanation of Rishi is to just put him with with cigar giving that performance in the room with sweepy and letting her react to it. That's more interesting and that's forward facing and I inevitably because of their relationship with the actor and the character there will be more Rishi. But I think that that's really been appropriate and a lesson to people who struggle with the like, oh, I've I've I've trapped myself. How am I going to get out? Yeah. I really I think there's some they built some danger into the show because they have said goodbye to characters. They have let Rob blood leaves. They have like Gus leave. They have let Jesse Bloom leave, you know what I mean? Like they don't just keep you around just to keep you around. Now you could say at the end of this episode there has to be five other bankers in the world other than Kenny and sweepy if you wanted to. But in some ways I think it's indicative of the specific personalities involved in terms of Harper and Eric that they need people to work with them who understand their specific ways of working right. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Who are also quite clearly willing to play fast and loose with what society deems appropriate. I'm glad you brought up, Rob because all of that all of my prelude there is a was a way of sort of hopefully contextualizing my feelings about the show this season. And also saying that I thought this was the weakest episode in quite some time maybe since season one or two. Okay. And we can get into what I want to talk to you about how you felt about the episode as well. But one of the reasons why one of the things that I thought at the end of the episode which felt very the entire thing felt a little untethered and unmoored to me not just because there is no trading floor but because characters for the first time in a while were to my mind. Performing their inner workings in a way that felt I'm not used to word earned but felt declarative. And not really meeting the moment like so like Harper's sushi date Harper sushi date and her unloading it Eric felt like the show is asking my holiday play a very different person. Episode to episode to episode. Yasmin's complete heel turn back to being you know the psychosexual manipulator that she has been in the pad I mean that's consistent with the character felt it that whole detour felt shocking for shocking sake to me it felt emptier in a way that I think critics of the show have criticized it before but I've never really felt and the one thing I'll throw on a top of this and then I'll give you the floor is that weirdly I felt like the show it's not doesn't have a big deal. It doesn't have a it doesn't miss pure point it misses Rob. Because he he was the soul yes and they let go of him at the right time I think that that character I think that that was the most honestly that they could do because they would just be like a guy like this just yes couldn't would not fucking hack it slash had had sort of like a self regard that would be like I can't do this to myself anymore. Now I don't know what Rob is doing in California like obviously the end of his character arc in season three suggests he's back back on his bullshit like selling things that people don't need to people with too much money so great but I hear I hear what you're saying I think I had different reactions I mean I think I mentioned last week that is like characters on the show are now. And entirely like vocalizing like an interiority that usually stays interior in in some fashion and I think that that's in some cases that's just called style like that's how sorkin writes and that's how Jesse Armstrong writes and different different writers have different ways of. Of externalizing people psychology and emotional states and also using characters to vocalize and verbalize things that they feel about the world and things that they feel about whatever the hell they're talking about in the show or movie. Yes rang very true to me. They're doomed. They might be doomed people and I think that you get like 35 seconds of it's you and me in the open road and everything is in front of us baby and now it's like very quickly slipping back into like Henry is talking like a corporate mouthpiece again and yes has to exact her. Power over him in the ways that she understands how and maybe also the reason why this is one of my favorite shows of all time is because people are fucked up and do fucked up this I do want to say. Another admirable thing about the show that sets it apart is that the creators are not overly in love with their creations yes yes there is a tendency baked into television that over time. The audience often towards the characters even once we've seen do bad acts and the creators feel similarly and they steer them towards the light or give you more and more of their humanity and often in effect defang them even shows as like pantheon as madmen did this not every character but you know they fall in love with the actor fall in love with the performer. One of the core tenants of industry that I think critics often miss is that these guys these characters aren't just fuck ups they fuck up constantly what has yasmine been good at professionally with all of her fumbling over you know towards doing this and trying this instead over three or four years maybe. You know being the dramaturg for psychosexual inappropriate workplace relationships that might be her calling yeah. And so I don't want to I want to be able to have the conversation with you that we're having because I don't I don't want to fall back into a criticism of. But I like her I want her to be better that's that's definitely not what I'm what I'm saying I just felt like the when you move as fast as these guys do story wise and you break things sometimes along the way it can be hard for the audience to catch up to where the characters are in that moment so that the Eric Harper thing. I did have a moment not as someone enjoying the scene between two actors that I love but someone who is. Watch four seasons of the show being like air needs to get away from this. Destruct or the eater of course he's not going to know of course not but I want to make some fill alive but I but then I but then within the context of the episode as she is just eviscerating him before she leaves work and eviscerating when she comes back from her. Meal in which he didn't eat I want to just think she was angry yes thank you yes I want to see I want to see what he is deciding to commit himself more because what instead the way that I the feeling I left the episode with and again I want to be clear like I didn't I don't watch the show is subtitles I didn't watch it twice and it could be moving too fast for me at times but when he what I read the this plus that equals that equation of the episode. Eric felt like he has yet to understand Harper and be the human in her life that she so clearly needs so as a sign of good faith he has imperiled his children's future by giving her $10 million or pounds or whatever the case maybe that felt disproportionate to the moment to me. It moves the story. I mean so. I think because of the style in which the show is made sometimes because of the filmmaking and because of the music and because of the cinematography in the honestly the beauty of a lot of the performers that are performing the work. It's easy to lose track of the fact that I think several. Of the main characters. Are on the outside looking into both. To the world that they occupy yes Daikers a really good example of the Charlie he didn't characters working at a financial times ask newspaper is clearly like writing checks his stories can't cash in terms of their reporting and the illusion that he himself was a speculator gambler and lost money lost money and now is basically asking for this. You know reporting trip to Africa so that he can continue to investigate tender Eric and Harper. We're last seen during the fall of this investment bank at pure point they have. Interpersonally fallen out multiple times have a job just tried to destroy each other's lives multiple times yeah and the meeting that they can get at the beginning of this episode is with family bank investors. And small time not maybe not small time but like they get the bare minimum response from those city in London that's right wall street so they are outsiders. Henry is noble by birth and that's pretty much it and is going through like a midlife crisis and obviously has severe mental health problems and probably substance problems and etc etc. Yes, man has gone through her traumatic relationship with her family and doesn't really have a job right now you know and is not one of the things that was so harrowing about the second episode is every time it suggested that yes with leave Henry he's like where she gonna go yeah where she gonna go where any of these people going to go they have grabbed on to each other as pieces of driftwood as life. Yes, and now they are turning the life raft into a speedboat you know and going into a point unknown but I think it's important to remember that even if the characters are viewed as these like world killers as Eric ones called Harper yeah. They have a lot of problems that I don't think the show is shining away from that I think that's really well observed I think the one of the things that's been most compelling about the show over time is that we came to it in season one with definitely within American mindset of like I guess it's gonna be darwinian. But these kids who come from diverse backgrounds in all senses financially in terms of race class country of origin. You know the alphas will win and then become the rightful airs or whatever that's a very American way of looking at it the only life raft that all these people are clinging to is entrenched old money in aristocracy. So and Henry's been you know introduced to the show as an important plank and a great performance from kid Harrington and we see the prison of his life but it is a gilded cage and a lot of these other characters would probably think they would die to be a part of it because governments change. FinTech regulations change but the people in the clubby rooms playing handball do not change. Yes and that whole sequence with Jennifer Bevin at the end with the meeting with the current Ricky Martin with the wife. Yeah and the prime ministers chief staff comes in and is essentially like soft launching Bevin's coup against the current the current like basically was it the digital spaces minister or like well. But then the press the tabloids are saying that she's the labor's heir apparent so really it's a coup against whoever is the standard for cure starmer in their current right show I mean I I think that. There these collections as always with the show of just jaw drop details and moments and the paintings being the bad paintings being by a Hitler is incredible the one of the probably less likely to be remarked upon but I thought really outstanding scenes and how was staged is when Harper walks in on Eric's daughter visiting and the entire scene is I believe quite intentionally film. Like there was a process in the hotel room yes it's his daughter well also the is the daughter think that Harper is who Eric left the family for well it doesn't matter because she's right either this is the person who caused the rupture in the family or the rupture in his professional stability or has brought him back into their lives in a different way she is the disruptor the daughters right about that and he gives her a lot of cash and says tell mom this was a good visit. Yeah I mean that that the transactional nature of everything on the show that was just really brilliantly really stage. I think maybe what I'm feeling in terms of what the what to my mind so far the season the show has been less successful at is sketch a stitching these small observations and these incredibly like radioactive in the best possible way characters stitching them together into something that feels as propulsive and as clever and is almost seamless as the show was last season. But maybe that is also a byproduct of they broke it they intentionally broke it and now they're beginning again so I'm definitely like these these later criticisms I have are not like I'm not turning my back on it I I'm interested in how they steer everything back together into a larger tapestry yeah because right now this is another point I'm curious your thoughts about tender is being presented to us in a way in which all of the James is skepticism is true it is and this is also to do with I think Max Miguel performance which is pretty sneering super villainy. They're bad right like and I don't know if the show is more narratively compelling or not if there's some doubt about it but it's been three hours of television and all they do is take a trip to Sunderland to find out that this is as corrupt as something can be I what's the next card to turn is it that tender is good actually is good right. Right. Again these guys and this show is not they're not simplistic thinkers in terms of how they view the world or in terms of how they make a drama but to this point it seems pretty clear not what's good and what's bad we're past that but what's factually true and maybe ultimately the most important a lot of talk about narrative narrative and story so maybe that's the ultimate takeaway from the episode is what Eric says is that none of that matters unless you have the winning story. Yes, which I thought was compelling and also you know as a recent convert to Bill Akman's work didn't know about his battle with herbal life. Really fascinating yeah did some googling is a documentary about it you know are you are you up on some of his more recent opinions as well fascinating fascinating character just morally just consistent and just seems like a really good guy. I'm the only one in the room is willing to say it I just feel like I guess I respect dangerous. I have a lot of her money in person so it's just a little nervous. I thought that was interesting I didn't know anything about that I can't say I've been like wasn't like clocking billionaires until relatively recently. Oh yeah yeah because don't care and now that they've all like you know reveal themselves I'm like oh okay by the way I thought I'm glad that you refuse your invitation to the Melania screening I was busy you know I want to watch the Broncos you want to watch a stretch think a couple things for me it wouldn't be the same show it would probably be too big of a swing and too crazy I kind of like I would have fucked with like Jim Diker being the hero of this season or the protagonist of the season yeah and Conrad Mickey getting in the news room and doing like how do these stories get assembled and maybe there will be more like he'll be more featured as the season goes on. It was kind of fun to be in a different workplace and it is talking about this talking about different you know actions and consequences of a job in the same fashion as the way investment bankers talk to one another there was a lot of overlapping off screen dialogue happening with the in the newsroom there. I also just thought it's worth pointing out that while I'm like oh it would be cool if you guys just like straight up made this show about a financial journalist looking into multiple companies out there and trying to get Harper to help him it would also take away from the fact that I do think as we've commented before the central love story or the central relationship of this television show is very important. Yeah and I think I think I'm maybe I'm basic maybe I'm soft batch but I think I need more of that I think that Harper as Shiva destroyer of worlds is a compelling character and has been unique and compelling for three seasons and I think that the show has been really a bit with backstory and trauma as she says in this episode my trauma was traumatizing so that's which which I thought was really effective line and true to care for you. It was funny when he was like seems like you're doing their great together. Yeah, Ken Long is such a good actor he's so I think it's just remarkable to watch him play different gradations of the same person in different times in life and he can make himself. You know as a man who I believe is probably five seven roughly he can make himself huge or small yeah with really subtle ways through performance. Like the episode where Harper goes off you know goes off the grid in Berlin and there's the end with her twin brother and so we know we remember that from the past remember that relationship the episode it's not unintentional the one of the first thing she does the season the shred card. From her mother believe so. It requires a light hand to backfill some of the humanity of the character but I do think the show and I'm sure they are aware of this as well there's episodes to come and as we always say we don't want to head but I think. I think that um. The way that Eric was backfilled with his family in his relationship to his family in his choices and his relationship with the bill was the boss that he. Adler Adler was the boss we sabotaged last season. I get I get where he is like echo located in terms of like his emotional journey despite my criticism of his willingness to sacrifice everything Harper less so and so I think that to make that the relationship that is going to provide the ballast for the season I think I need more. And luckily there's more episodes so it is not this is not prescriptive I think I was feeling that this episode how did you feel about the Austrian vacation. I thought it was very funny. I thought it was very funny I thought that. It's one of those things where you I could see someone being like whether they think it's on the nose or more of like an ideological convention rather than a scene of dramatic characters. I'm like compared to what what what else on TV is doing anything like this and yeah I actually loved the moment after the three way and when they get home. Not not the oyster uh breakfast oyster no when Henry sort of scolds yesman forgiving for facilitating that guys op at yeah and that was. You know perhaps um paternalistic or whatever of of Henry to just be like no your place like don't go around my back and use the media for to fight my battles or whatever. But I did think it was like the grades of the way that these aristocratic fail sons kind of judge one another and what their sort of red lines are you know and he's like he's not just like writing homages to the very mock to whatever you know like or the Vi-Mar Republic or whatever he was writing. You would know based on your effingers reading. Oh did I mention that sorry I just I've just been reading so many great books lately have you actually cracked a new book since then yet to you know I like to do a two track strategy. I don't know how you finish anything I'm I mean I'm not watching TV. You know I've got a little bit of little pocket of time. Okay uh where was I I just really like that scene um and I think a lot of these plot lines are really in their infancy I don't know that I be embarrassed done now and they they fixed. I I bumped a little bit on that's that the vacation only because it was reminiscent of circumstances we've seen on succession relatively recently we all have to get on a plan and go and do this and who someone who is a little bit. Whoa right so that's how they do it in that country. But it was a good illustration of like Whitney's sort of in this Harper-esque place of outsider yeah. And you know and and again another person where it's just like this is his shot this is he's making his run here with this merger and his idea and his big talk about bank killer yeah that's how these guys I guess assume that they have to talk and think if they want to build their their pile. Yeah and and it I think it's similarly like the show doesn't hold your hand in understanding that like this isn't a fringe company and that it's attempts to become a bank or a bank killer is of incredible central importance to the labor government. Yes you know yeah of course it should be because you want this goes back to my first point push the show towards the most interesting most dangerous places. So and in industry case as quickly as possible yeah and I think that that is that is the DNA of the show that has allowed it to be successful and to grow exponentially season the season in terms of interest viewership and success so this is me wholeheartedly I believe you know what I believe in the strategy and I think that the you know it's like it's like putting your money with a it's turned out. Little bit. A little bit aggressive yeah it's one directional yeah. Single is it so they're really going one directional not like Harry styles not like that but I just mean like it's like those guys are talking about at the breakfast table they're just like this is insane to just be a short only play. But I even even that that's something that I really love because it was like that struck me something that is a great television thing which is. Aware of the character you've built and the plot decisions you made over three years and Harper consistently just seems to be sure the entire business is built on these like pivots and being first or being. Yeah and like getting around the bend before everybody else so when a person like Harper keeps pitching these people these guys are all going to eventually like one of them is going to be like she she could be on to something it's worth a little bit of money. That was the Jesse Bloom yeah exactly but what I'm saying is it's it's using something that they had already established because I think that if you look at all of her big bets they've basically been shorts and I don't know again I might be remembering it correctly I don't know if any character was like what's up with you in shorts are you you have no confidence in things that's reflecting your character about like how the world works and the you know. And and you're placing it that you just don't buy any of this great man bullshit but but now they have what is I mean yes uses the word narrative eyes they Mickey and Conrad have narrative eyes that that is now the business model until season five when she's a real builder exactly yeah she could build that better. It's a structure week baby yeah that all works I tried reading House of X by the way which is the Jonathan Hickman run I've read it I think I've like read it like I've read grad of gravies rainbow like I've started a lot yeah. Are you doing this I'm not doing it chronologically no but are you I first of all I appreciate your candor are you doing this because you feel like X men are coming back into your life over the next two years thanks to the MCU and you want to kind of get in front of it or I picked it up because I have a anthology graphic novel of the two of it's like box box house of X powers of X powers of X and then there's also house of M that's that's 20 years ago you don't want that okay that's the scarlet which power of X right okay and I have a book of it and I was like Oh I did download the chronological version of this but then they were like it we just did that for fun you shouldn't actually read the story that way. So I'm trying and like I mean it's very very good it's very dense it's very dense. We're talking about many many timelines. So for people who don't know the last greats reinvention of a property that Marvel publishing did was now this is already five years ago the great comic book writer Jonathan Hickman responsible for a lot of the big big ideas that are now going to be put on the screen in to me stay in secret words in terms of like multi versatile incursions. Don't know don't blame him. He took over the X men and just kind of industry did in the sense of like I am going to profoundly and forever change or so we hope the status quo by not throwing out building on this this franchise is radical history of reinvention and radically reinventing it and so in these I mean it doesn't even it's not even worth getting into all the big changes but the biggest one was instead of you know Professor X versus magneto and they're superheroes and super villains it was this idea that's always been coded into it that their mutants are a race. And in this world they come together they live on Krakow the mutant living island which has been canon since the 70s yep and starting new society that will negotiate with humanity and like give them access to pharmaceuticals pharmaceuticals and things and basically in exchange for being left alone and they do things like combine their powers like weird dumb joke characters combine them into a team that can resurrect any mutant forever because Professor X stores their memories and lives in their brain and so they have cured mortality yeah and this is a story that goes across timelines and across outer space jump that I think the timeline jumping is a little confusing and it was really worth it and away forward that of course the demands of comic books meant that Hickman was like did it for two years and was like cool I think I'm going to go do something else and they're like oh just doing for a year and then they were like and now it's over yeah and everybody's different again now we're back to the way they were and it's hugely disappointing but you're looking you jumping on this I wanted to work I mean I just I just had that lying next to my bed so it's just like I want to take a break from screens for a little while and from defengers I guess which you haven't quite picked up did you um are you is this of interest to you if we're doing a little comic book talk at the end here are you aware of the biggest success story in comic books of the decade no which is DC Comics absolute line where they did kind of like what Marvel in a way what Marvel did 25 years ago where they were like in a lower place sales wise and culturally before certainly before the movies and they were like we're going to create a new separate universe called the ultimate universe and we're going to give our best creators free range to what would what would happen if the X-Men and Spider-Man happened now in this case the year 2000 okay and that's when Miles Morales who's now famous in the spider-versa-moves came from not originally but eventually so DC was like basically did another like corporate wide fuck it and we're going to create new versions of Superman Wonder Woman Batman Martian manhunter with the very like truly the best of the best creators okay and with kind of twists on the origin story where Wonder Woman is a princess not of Amazon but from hell oh and Batman is this you might not relate to this is a son of working people oh yeah he's not a nebo kid you know like so that that might be your limit um and they are selling at a rate of like comics haven't sold since the 90s really and like the collected editions are sold out everywhere absolute yeah absolutely yeah and people are they're awesome I just started dipping a toe into them but it's very cool and and I think that why I never really fucked with DC but maybe I'll check it out me either I think the thing that's been interesting is the relationship between these publishing arms that for a while one of the reasons why Marvel felt one of the less reported on I know Marvel is completely reported on but I think one of the reasons that Marvel did get to dominate the world is because they had been kind of incubating really cool ideas and concepts for so long that the MCU could pick and choose some of these things to varying degrees of success but like certain versions of characters or there was canonical blueprints for them or for taking things in a different direction or doing kind of what if not just the series what if and now and then over the last 20 years the comics with notable exceptions sort of had to service the continuity of the movies in this forever attempt to be like you guys really liked seeing Dr. Strange on the screen may I interest you in 30 years of Steve Ditko's it's vertical integration times a billion which I don't think has ever really worked so I think what was cool about DC coming from a place where the movies pre-gun weren't hitting instilled I guess the jury is relatively out on that they were just like we're going to be a publishing company we're going to do bold things and it's paying off what a great recommendation to end the show on do you think people made it this far I hope so I think our industry conversations are always something people look forward to I think that's nice um thanks to kaya thanks to kaya kaya which absolute comic book will you be picking up between now and thursday show I mean how do I where do I even begin how do I do princess of hell kind of describes kaya you know just more for world-beating attitude that's right uh thanks to kaya thanks to kaya we'll be back on thursday with some pit some other stuff you know what else is this week speaking of comics wonder man oh you know what which I kind of want to check out I want to check that out too so we'll be back on our marvel bullshit this week as well right uh thanks everybody for listening and watching we'll talk to you on thursday