A tinned fish renaissance

Hey, Nate. Hey, Kate. Hey. Hey, Justine. So at a recent outside-in meeting, we were discussing our plans for this episode, and Kate, you actually told us about something that happened to you recently. Do you mind telling us that story? So I was having a birthday dinner with some of my friends. They were giving me very sweet and thoughtful gifts, and one of my closest friends, she showed up with a bunch of individually-wrapped little boxes, and I had a suspicion what they were, because we have a shared interest, and they were exactly what I thought they were, which was a beautiful display of tinned fishes. It was an amazing birthday gift, and we had basically, like, the fish equivalent of a charcuterie board afterwards, and it was super, super yummy. I have been completely in the dark with this term, tinned fish. It sounds so much nicer than I think what I normally think of as just, like, cheap sardines. Totally. I think that tinned fish, which I guess is, like, the classy way to say fish in a can, has somehow undergone some type of rebranding that it felt equivalent to, like, if my friend had given me really nice, like, gourmet chocolate or flowers or a bottle of wine. Like, it's like a delicacy. So this is not like your chicken of the sea bumblebee-style cans? Oh, totally. I think, I mean, I think part of the appeal is it's like a little taste of the Iberian Peninsula to put in your sad pantry, you know, all the colors and fun. They're pretty. They're pretty. I have, like, not heard of this. Like, honestly, is this, like, a TikTok thing? Like, what is this? This feels, like, impossible to me that you would not have heard of this, Nate, but maybe this speaks to our different niches. I know. Yeah, I also, I think we're learning too. Like, I have not been, like, on Instagram. Like, I just started listening to Chapel Roan. Like, that is where I am at. I would say Chapel Roan and Tinfish are part of the same extended universe. Yeah, I think so, too. Like, a beautiful person getting done up, cracking open a can of stinky fish, you know, they're so messy, they're so oily. It kind of reminds me of this moment when Chapel Roan started shouting down a photographer who had apparently been super rude to her in the photo line. It's like, we're not taking sh**. We are eating stinky fish, and you can deal with it. I know. What wave of feminism? Fish wave. Fish wave. We're on the fish wave of feminism now. Fish wave feminism. I love it. So, I think we could say that we are in the midst of what some are calling a tinned fish renaissance. And we are not the only ones who feel that way. A listener recently left a voicemail on our show's hotline asking about tinned fish, specifically sardines. Hey, outside in. This is June calling from month to year, every month. Well, there's lots of good reasons to eat sardines. They're full of protein and a mega-free fatty acid, and they don't have a lot of mercury because they're low in the food chain. I've always had this sense that they're also a more environmentally friendly fish, perhaps because of being low on the food chain. But I realize and I really have no sense of what it looks like to actually fish sardines. Just curious, and if it makes you curious too, then cool. Does it make us curious? This is essentially a personal question, Jeanie. Of course it does, Jeanie. I am so curious. Thank you. This is Outside In. I'm Nate Hedgie. I'm here with Kate Dario and Justine Paradis. And this week, we are spending an entire episode answering this question. Sardines are in vogue. Literally, they are in vogue magazine. But, fat aside, how sustainable are these little fish? Is there bycatch that happens with sardines also? How are they caught? Is there ocean floor trawling where the nets get dragged along the ocean floor? What kinds of emissions are involved? It doesn't matter what brand or are there any other labels or indicators that I should be looking for if I buy sardines. What is the deal with sardines? Thanks so much. Bye. Have you ever had the urge to sneak behind the cordoned off areas of a museum? Or roam the halls after closing time? The Smithsonian's flagship podcast, Side Door, will sneak you behind the scenes of the world's largest museum and research complex. Come learn about the ghosts that supposedly walk the museum halls after dark. How a train robbery gave rise to criminal forensics. Why leeches are actually the coolest thing ever. And how to get away with murder in the Arctic. Maybe. You'll discover stories of history, science, art, and culture you won't find in a display case. You can listen to Side Door wherever you get your podcasts. Or find us online at si.edu. Do any of you have people in your lives who are like, feel that sardines are very sort of stinky and gross? Yeah, my wife. Like I literally cannot eat sardines in the house. Definitely my parents could not compute me and my friends being obsessed with eating sardines. Like putting on a cute outfit, trying to be glam, having a glass of wine, and then being like, alright, let's crack out, but let's bring out the sardines. They were like, aren't you girls supposed to be like, hip or something? Why are you eating sardines right now? So definitely I think there's a generational divide. So it may seem like this tin fish renaissance is a new thing, because at least in the US, there exists an attitude of distaste towards stinky fish. But I think you could probably also argue that this conception of tin fish as gross is maybe a bit of a historical blip. Because for one, the beautiful, vibey art on sardine boxes is not a 21st century phenomenon. I found this digital museum of Portuguese tin fish boxes that go back to the 19th century. A lot of them are very like a French nouveau, kind of moulin rouge vibes. So it's been a thing for a long time. You know, they've been incredibly important for human nutrition and food and economies for probably centuries. This is Meylin Pinsky. He is a marine biologist at the University of California, Santa Cruz. So let's talk a little bit about what sardines are. There is something to the logic that Jeanne and all of us have been apparently operating under. It is, I have to say, you know, eating small, fast-growing fish that are feeding low in the food chain, right? They're not far removed from sunlight. They're basically swimming sunlight. A couple of steps removed is really sustainable. Swimming sunlight? What does he mean by that? Yeah, so because sunlight is the energy source of almost all life on this planet, ultimately all of us are just basically translating sunlight into like our life force, you know? Which plants do directly, but those of us who can't photosynthesize must accept our fate of being one or two steps away. But because sardines are really low on the food chain, they eat plankton, which are teeny tiny marine plants and animals, they're practically swimming sunlight. Sardines are relatively small, fast-growing fish. They're described as pelagic, meaning of the open ocean, rather than benthic, which is living on the sea floor. They love a coastal upwelling zone, but who doesn't? These are places where cold, nutrient-rich water is rising to the surface, like, off California, so that means there's a lot of plankton to eat. They swim in these massive schools. It is truly a spectacle. The annual sardine run off South Africa is among the largest migrations in the world in terms of biomass, like, rivaling migrations in the Serengeti. This sardine run is four miles long, a mile wide, and 30 meters deep, so this is like miles of fish. Oh, my gosh, that'd be so cool to see. I once watched a documentary about this, and it was, like, operatic in terms of the characters that come and, like, first the birds, and then the tuna, and then the dolphins, and then the whales, and this, like, big, bombastic finale. It is bananas. It's a mass migration of sardines. Why they gather is a mystery. But the result is a feast that will sustain an entire coastline of creatures. This sounds like they should have a sequel to March of the Penguins, March of the Sardines. It sounds really beautiful. Because the schools can become so large, and they go through these large peaks and abundance, they're really important to fisheries. So these massive sardine runs are also big business. One analysis I saw up with the value of the global sardine market at almost $10 billion annually, and that is just four canned sardines. So there are a lot of them, but of course we're here to ask, is eating sardines sustainable? So sustainability is kind of a... it's a confusing word. It's an increasingly confusing word, I would say. This is Zach Kane. He is a data research scientist at the Stanford Center for Ocean Solutions. Zach made the point that there are so many facets to this idea of sustainability when it comes to fisheries and everything else. The listener who asked this question, Jeanie, she named a few concerns. The first one she mentioned was... Is there bycatch that happens with sardines also? Bycatch. So shall we start there? Yes. Yes. This is like when they're running those big nets through the ocean and they're picking up sea turtles and dolphins and stuff like that. Exactly. So any fishery is going to have issues with, you know, taking things that it doesn't want to take or non-target species. Same way that farmers are going to always have issues with, you know, birds on their crops and things like that. So a fishery, by the way, is kind of a vague term, but it's basically like a specific area of ocean or type of fish. Okay, so like the Peruvian anchovy fishery. Yes, exactly. Or it can be also defined by the method. Jeannie asked about trawling. Where the nets get dragged along the ocean floor. So this is like dragging a net either along the bottom or through the midwater. And people trawl to catch fish that like to hang out on the sea floor. So like cod and haddock and squid and shrimp especially. But it essentially rototills the seabed. So that rips up plants and animals, messes with animals buried in the sand. You get it. Sardines though, they hang out nearer to the surface of the water. So the technique is different. People catch them using a type of net called a purse sain. Just this kind of like beautiful image of like a net that comes down and then there's a little boat that comes off the big boat and just kind of wraps up the school and then tightens it like an old school purse and then pulls it up. So it never interacts with the bottom. Does that make sense? Yeah. Scoops them up. Sinching it, yeah. Yeah, so with the purse sain, fishers can go out and target a specific school of fish. So in a way it's less random than say long lining, which is laying out a fishing line that's like miles long with a ton of fishing hooks on it to catch like tuna and swordfish. But purse sains also have bycatch concerns. According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NOAA, in US fisheries, the species most commonly captured include bottlenose dolphins and humpback whales. Wow. You're getting a lot more than you bargained for if you're trying to get a teeny tiny sardine and you end up with a humpback whale. I know. It's huge. Kavjet, though, that is actually not specifically about sardines. It's about purse sains generally, which are actually the most common method used to catch fish. Like a lot of tuna are caught this way too. And data on bycatch generally is kind of murky and complicated. But fishery sustainability experts do say that bycatch and purse sain fisheries tends to be lower than other methods. Let's move on to emissions. So, Zach, he was the author of a paper published in 2022. So the title of the paper is The Role of Seafood and Sustainable Diets. Which calculated the greenhouse gas footprint of different aspects of our diets. Basically looking at the ratio of nutrients you can get for the carbon involved in the life cycle of catching it or producing it. So if you guys want to take a look at this graph from this paper, Okay, so there it is. Okay, so we're looking at a graph right now. It's got like capture fishery, aquaculture, livestock. So on the far right, we've got beef, which requires a lot of emissions for like a good amount of nutrients, but not the most. And then we have nuts, you know, which don't require a ton of emissions, but are high in nutrients, but they're over far on the left. And you see that the small pelagics, so that's a lot of the amount of nutrients that are in the small pelagics. So that's sardines and other fish like them. They scored between nuts and tubers. That's amazing. So according to his study, they're like more like bang for your sustainable buck than seeds. Wow. That's amazing. That's shocking to me because I do try to think about sustainability or I guess I try to think about the environment when I eat and my general rule of thumb is always things that grow in the ground or better spend something like fish or meat of any type or any sort of animal byproduct. So that's fascinating. I definitely would not have guessed that. Well, you can see that it is the only meat on the left side of the chart. You're looking at it from having a small environmental footprint, small pelagics, all of those little fish like sardines or herring or anchovy. They're actually quite low in emissions and the reason for that is how they're fished. They're typically fished in bigger schools. So remember that per se technique? Yeah. How sardine fishers scoop up entire schools of fish? They do this relatively close to shore. On a single trip, fishers can get a huge haul especially since the technology in the fishing industry is so slick these days. You can identify schools of fish with sonar and know exactly where they are. But compare that to lobsters which were way higher on that ratio. They had a lot more emissions involved. They were right around lamb and beef and that's because catching lobsters requires multiple trips. First you go out and lay the traps, let them soak for a few days, and then you go check them again. And it's not a ton of lobsters compared to the huge school of sardines, right? That's so cool. Yeah, that's fascinating. So if we're looking at small pelagics, does that factor in the carbon footprint of the boat and the canning facility? Good question. It stops before the canning facility. But there's Maylan Pinsky who was not involved with Zach's study. He made a good point about this. Think about what it takes to air freight fresh fish from Alaska, say, to a dinner plate in New York City. Compare that to tinning something close to where it's caught and then ship it as slowly as you want because it'll be preserved for months or years. I'm getting a little hungry. Should we pause for a sec to enjoy some tin fish? Music to my ears. Yes, let's do it. I just honestly feel like I don't have the wrist strength to open these without spilling olive oil. I know, the risks that we take while reporting are just... Are you guys just diving in? Mm-hmm. Okay, so you two each brought two cans. Let's go through them loosely in order of price. Starting with Nate, you brought a can called Season. These are the ones you can buy at Costco. And they say that they were fished in a place called the Atlantic Ocean. I think I've heard of that. They're really good. Kate, you got a can from New England's staple food brand, Pastine. I think it's based in Canton, Massachusetts. Down in the fine print, it says product of Morocco, but they're not trying to sell you a Spanish vacation or anything. Yeah. These were like 250. Okay, now moving into the cans that are branded slightly more upscale. Nate, what is the vibe, would you say, of that big old can of Bar Harbor Sardines? You're eating this, sitting on a dock, wearing clad. It's got a smoky, natural wood smoke flavor. But I don't know, just packed in water. I'm not a big fan. I like the olive oil. Kate, you also went to the co-op and picked up a $6 can of Sardines and olive oil from a brand called, is it Matisse? M-A-T-I-Z, but it's Spanish, so it actually says on the back that it's pronounced Matisse. So not to do the like, Barcelona thing, but like Matisse, I guess. They have a little map of Galicia. Mmm, yummy. Okay, I had to pick up a can of arguably the quintessential fancy girl Sardine brand. This was a $10 can. It's Sardines in olive oil with preserved lemon, and it is from Fishwife. Oh, those are beautiful. It looks like it was hand drawn. It's gorgeous. I feel like you're more likely to see Fishwife in like a trendy boutique, like genuinely than you are like an actual grocery store where you are shopping for groceries. Truly, Fishwife has become like literal fashion. Like they've collaborated with Lisa says God, this Internet fashion brand to sell like Sardine necklaces and t-shirts. I was actually in New York recently in Soho and Fishwife was doing a pop-up store. And the day after I was there, there was a line around the block for people to get in. Wow, this is so much more popular than I ever imagined. That hits the spot. I'm so hungry. I feel bad for my microphone. Terrible breath right now. All right. Well, I actually, I really don't like when people eat on the radio. So we're doing something that's like against my predilection. Everything you stand for. 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From an HPR, this is Outside In, where curiosity and the natural world collide. I am Nate Hedgie here with some of our team, Kate Dario and Justine Paradis. The topic du jour is, of course, the tinned fish renaissance, something that I had never heard of, honestly, until we started making this episode, and specifically the sustainability of sardines. Yes. We have come to perhaps the biggest question. Actually, they're all big questions. I don't really need to rank them here, but this, the question now is, what about overfishing? So maybe sardines aren't too bad on the emissions scale. That's awesome. But are we at risk of depleting the oceans? And the short answer is, yeah. Sardines, like anchovies and herring, they are small, fast growing fish relative to longer live species like sharks and tuna. Of those two categories, intuitively, which do you guys imagine would be most vulnerable to overfishing? Definitely tuna. Tuna, I feel like people, that's a conversation people have, and I've never heard anyone hand out a save the sardines fly or something. Exactly. Yeah. And there is something to that. I feel the same way. There are a lot of sardines out there, but are there enough sardines out there, given this 21st century tinned fish renaissance? In the past, there had been this assumption that we have to be really careful with the slow growing species, but maybe we don't have to worry as much about the fast growing species because they can outgrow our ability to fish them. Mailin Pinsky, the marine biologist we heard from earlier, he looked into this question. Are there certain kinds of species that are most likely to collapse to low abundance so we can predict which those are going to be in the future? And we looked at our graphs and we looked at the data and looked at it again and we just, it's like, wait a minute, this isn't making sense. We realized actually what the information was telling us is that actually these small, short-lived, fast-growing species are just as likely to collapse to low abundance as the species we already knew were in trouble. And that was really a surprise. So sardines go through boom and bust cycles in their population, and this happens naturally as part of larger environmental cycles like El Niño. But fishing can make it worse. Specifically, scientists say we have to be careful not to overfish during the dips, basically not hit them when they're down. And that is tricky because we live in a world with big boats and big nets and constant high demand. Again, we are in a tinned fish renaissance, remember? But sardines are not just in demand by hot, stylish people like us, but by hot species like dolphins. So when sardine populations suffer, that has a domino impact on other species. It's called a trophic cascade. And the population of the Pacific sardine, for example, is dangerously low. So for the past few years, a lot of California sea lions are starving. The Pacific sardine fishery is currently closed due to overfishing. And remember that operatically dramatic sardine run off South Africa, the biggest fish migration on the planet? It's starting to collapse too. And that's because of a combination of overfishing and environmental change, people think. Some argue that part of the issue here is that fishing regulations are not as responsive as they need to be, as quick at responding to the environmental fluctuations as they need to be to manage the fishery well. And as climate change impacts intensify, there are species of fish that are moving to new places, which is literally causing geopolitical issues. It's something that has played out really dramatically actually in the Northeast Atlantic between the European Union and Iceland, where mackerel, which historically were found primarily in Norwegian and European waters, then shifted north up into Icelandic waters. But the countries involved have not been very nimble at figuring out how to share this new fishery. And that's something that didn't just stay in fisheries. It spilled over, it became a trade war. There are also some suggestions that helped convince Iceland it didn't want to join the European Union. The only thing I remember from my intro to international politics class freshman year of college was that Iceland did not join the EU because they wanted to maintain their autonomy over fishing. So this is a big deal. It's a big deal. And I feel like Nordic people, if Iceland is considered one of the Nordic countries, they eat a lot of fish. I imagine a lot of pickled herring or mackerel. Totally. I'd go to war over it too. Yeah. All right. Let's move on to our listener, Jeanne's last question. Does it matter what brand or are there any other labels or indicators that I should be looking for if I buy Sardin? What should we be looking for in the grocery store? Should we talk about that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's pull out our Sardin boxes again. And the first thing to look for is just to see what information there is, where the Sardines were caught and where they were canned, especially where they were caught. So if that information is not on the box or if it's vague, that's not a great sign. Yeah. Well, like one of my, the ones that I really like, the season one is incredibly vague. It literally just says sustainable. That's it. Yeah. That's not a legal term. No. It's like natural, all natural. I'm seeing wild caught in the Eastern Atlantic, which is a noun with a modifier, but Eastern Atlantic could be Namibia. It's a lot of ocean. Right. Could be Iceland. So I'm realizing that could be anything. It does say canned in Galicia, hand-packed even. But then my cheaper ones just say product of Morocco. Okay. So looking to where the Sardines are caught, you can consider avoiding certain regions. According to many fishery experts, Sardines caught in the Mediterranean are over exploited. A combination of rising sea surface temperatures and fishing has led to a colossal fall off in Portuguese Sardines, like think 200,000 tons of Sardines landed in the 80s to under 10,000 a few years ago. Oh no. Okay. So if you're thinking about sustainability, you do have to be careful about where you're sourcing your Sardines from. So finally, let's talk about certifications. There are two big ones that people point to. The first is the Marine Stewardship Council or MSC. So on a couple of our boxes, you're going to see a square label with a kind of ocean blue color and a graphic design fish. That's on your box, right? Yes. That's on my box. Yeah. Bar Harbor, it says certified sustainable seafood, MSC. So the MSC, they have a whole process of independently assessing and certifying fisheries according to their standards. There are three principles. They're looking at the population of the specific fish, but also the ecosystem and the human system of governance around it. In 2026, the MSC lists just three Sardine fisheries in the world, which meets its standards. One of them is actually the Iberian Sardine fishery. Portuguese and Spanish fishermen worked together to bring up the stocks, at least to the point where the MSC would put their stamp on it. The other two are in the Gulf of California and in Cornwall, England. Oh, wow. So looking at Fishwife, I still do find it a little confusing. It has the MSC label and I know from their website that they source their Sardines from Cornwall, but that specific information is not on the box. I wonder if they're not foregrounding Cornwall, England, because English food is not as exciting as the bright colors of the Mediterranean. I'll say that much. Dude, look up Cornwall. It's got the cutest friggin' towns. Have you ever read the Mouse Hole Cat, the children's book? No. It's like the landscape from this children's book. He took his little boat through the narrow opening between the Great Breakwaters out into the blue-green sea and caught fish for Mouse's dinner. Oh my God. Oh yeah, this is gorgeous. Oh yeah. No, they should definitely be putting Cornwall onto their can. It is beautiful. It's like tucked into this emerald harbor. Little shutters and gates. Yeah. It feels very like Hobbits on the Sea. It is Hobbits on the Sea. On Saturdays, they souzed scat with vinegar and onions. And on Sundays, they made Star Gazy Pie with prime pill chutes in pastry. So the other organization that a lot of people point to is Seafood Watch out of Monterey Bay. This isn't a label on the can. Instead, you go to their website and look up the seafood you're considering. And they kind of have a traffic light system of labeling. So green is go, yellow use caution and red avoid. Can I look mine up? You can, yeah. Okay, so I'm there, Seafood Watch. How do you find the business? You don't, it's not the business. Oh, the type. It's like the species. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay, Sardine, anchovy and herring. Best choice. Now, I'm getting confused because this one says Bicardines caught in Japan or Morocco. But also Bicardines and herrings certified by the Marine Storeship Council. Maybe they're just... So one reason you might be getting different information in different places is there's something to be learned by looking at the business models of these certifying organizations. Here's Marine biologist, Mailin Pinsky again. Seafood Watch is largely driven by sort of a philanthropic model where they help new fisheries get certified. And there's relatively less burden on the fisheries, which makes it more accessible in the developing world where Marine stewardship council certification, fisheries have to pay up front for the costs of getting certified. And it's not at all cheap. So it's actually out of reach for some fisheries that might be sustainable, but don't actually have the ability to get certified in that way. That's really interesting. It's kind of like organic a little bit, right? Yeah. Like when you go to your local farmers market and they're not certified as organic, but you're like, they're organic. Totally, totally. But I will say that even if you don't eat sardines at all, your diet can still impact the health of wild sardine populations. And that's because a lot of the fish we catch is not directly eaten by humans, but is used for fish meal and fish oil. According to one study, over a quarter of fish that we catch goes to those purposes. Wow. Non-direct human consumption is the technical term. Where do you think a lot of that fish meal and fish oil goes? Yeah. My grandma used to take fish oil pills. Yeah. And then my grandma? Supplements for women, for everyone. Is fish meal, is that like food for fish? Yes. It goes into farm salmon, doesn't it? It goes to farm salmon and livestock for farmed fish and livestock. Whoa. Okay. So we're like, it's cannibal salmon a little bit. Well, I mean, fish eat other fish. It's, but yes. And the vast majority of the fish that ends up in fish meal are food grade. So 27% of landed fish doesn't end up on a human plate, although most of it could have. So this is a reason to consider our diets holistically and not in isolation for a single ingredient. Right. Right. Exactly. And again, like thinking about when you're eating, eating lower on the food chain, you know, sardines pretty low on the food chain. I think people should use the phrase swimming sunshine more because that, I agree. I want that on a t-shirt. I love that. I want someone to give me that nickname. I love swimming sunshine. That's so fun. Call up Lisa says, God. I have an idea for another $78 t-shirt. So I will say this with the caveat that none of this is perfect. None of this like lets us off the hook, so to speak. It sucks to answer these questions with, okay, like right now sardines probably are more sustainable than other choices for a number of different reasons, like for your own health, for emissions, for over exploitation of the oceans, depending on which fishery you're drawing from. But that's true right now. And it's just something that you can't stop paying attention to if you want to be making these choices sustainably. Do you know what I mean? I got to say, I was actually concerned that the only super sustainable good for you sardines were going to be like the $10, $11 fish wife sardines. And I just have to say, as much as I didn't love the flavor of these bar harbor sardines that I got, they were pretty cheap and they're still certified by the MSC. Yeah. No, I mean, it definitely was a wake up call for me because I think I sort of categorically was like sardines are fine. And it's just part of what I think these choices make us do is like reconnect to the details and the nuances of this planet. And well, I think it can be framed as like snooty to do that. I don't think it has to be. You know, it's not about like judging other people. I love when you go to the Cornwall Fishery website, like look through the documents of the MSC for this Cornwall Fishery. You look at the actual names of the people going out fishing and they've been doing it for generations of many of them. You see the town where it happens. And it's like, I don't want to be disconnected and be like subject to the whims of marketing, which is really corporate whims, you know. I totally agree how I think sometimes really being an ethical consumer is equated with being bougie or just looking for the most expensive thing. And I think like, you know, I'm early in my career. I don't have a ton of disposable income, but I like to really think about shop with a lot of intention. And I think because a lot of it's finding out bang for your buck and it's not always the most expensive option. And I think it just it's a rewarding experience to do that. Yeah. Unfortunately, I am I am like fully a convert to fish wife. I think that's excellent. So we'll be spending money on. There's also flavor, right? It is good. Thank you to Jeannie for calling in with the question which inspired this whole episode, which by the way, anybody can do. The number for our voicemail hotline is 1-844-GO-AUTER. And we love hearing from you. This episode was reported, produced and mixed by Justine Paradis. It was edited by our executive producer, Taylor Quimby, with help from our director of podcasts, Rebecca LaVoy. Our team also includes Felix Poon, Marina Hange and Jessica Hunt. I am your host, Nate Hedgie. And speaking of Sardines, you can get ad free versions of the podcast, plus an honest to goodness handwritten Sardine postcard from me, Nate Hedgie, when you join our Patreon. I am looking at those postcards right now. They look absolutely awesome. You can find details in the show notes. Speaking of this episode came from Mia Furman, Major Tweaks, David Celeste, Blue Topaz, Blue Dot Sessions, Revelle Day, Low Five and Spiegelstadt. Special thanks to Hue French. Outside in is production of NHPR. From artificial intelligence to the gig economy to global volatility, the economy is changing at a dizzying pace. Enter the Managing the Future of Work podcast, the chart topping and critically acclaimed podcast from Harvard Business School, hosted by me, Bill Kerr, and by managing the Future of Work project co-chair, Joe Fuller. The show explores technology trends, demographic changes, the rise, the care economy and many other forces transforming the landscape of work. 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