Thirty Thousand Square Feet with Kane Parsons & James Wan

Hello there, I am James Wan.

0:00

And I'm Kane Parsons.

0:02

And you're listening to the A24 podcast. Kane, buddy, how are you, man?

0:03

I'm doing well. How you doing, James?

0:08

Good, good. I'm well as well. So we're here to talk about all things backrooms and everything related to it and yourself, obviously.

0:09

Yeah, I have a lot I can say. It's been a pretty all consuming, like 4ish years or so now. So.

0:19

So it's been, it's been a pretty long journey for you from, I guess from where you started with the shorts, right?

0:28

Yeah, yeah.

0:34

The first short all the way to now, the full on proper feature film version of it.

0:35

Yep. Yeah.

0:42

And it's been quite the journey.

0:42

It has changed in ways that I definitely did not expect when I initially posted that short. And I mean, you were, you were, you were present at the very beginning of that. I think, I think, I think if I'm not mistaken, the first time we met it was over Zoom. And I think you were in post on aquaman2.

0:43

Right, that sounds good.

1:02

And you walked in and you were eating a salad and you said hello and we talked for like one or two minutes and you stepped out. But I think that was, I think that was the first time.

1:03

That was the first time we met via Zoom.

1:12

Yes.

1:14

And. And I was eating a salad or

1:15

one of us was seared into my brain and it's forever. My.

1:17

That's cool. But then we met in person when you came out to LA to visit us on the set of Night Swim.

1:21

Swim, yeah.

1:28

Yeah, right. I can't remember. What year was that?

1:29

It was 2023. That was 2023. Okay, 2023. So just like three years ago. Exactly.

1:31

To three years ago. And how old were you when you came to visit us?

1:35

Would have been 17.

1:39

17.

1:40

17.

1:41

Amazing. So I definitely have a lot of questions I want to ask you and I guess the best place to possibly start is let's go all the way back. You know, let's take us back. I would actually go back beyond to, you know, to what you were,

1:42

to

2:00

your interest in, in making shorts in filmmaking in general. So I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, your, your history there and your passion. What kind of got you into all of this?

2:00

Yeah, I mean, I, I try, I try my best to trace it. So I'm sure there's some things that are like results of random subconscious, you know, of course there's going to be some like, noise to it that I can't Quite pick up. But I, but I know that I've always kind of had a tendency or a bias since childhood to go towards something, a version of creativity in some way. And I've had, you know, an upbringing that did not directly like disable that, that desire. It was like I was able to find ways to do it mostly through like, you know, like I was drawing like growing up quite a bit. Like that was a big thing I would spend a lot of time doing and that would turn into like, like I eventually got like, like an old like digicam camera and I would like go and like do a little stop motion animation with Lego. And it's like, I don't think it was a particularly in that way. It's like. Right, it's like, it's a pretty common, I guess like activities as a kid. Want to go in that direction. I remember probably by around the time I was like nine or so, I was like, I had like the term filmmaker was a thing or director was in my brain enough that I was like, yeah, I like, I like movies, I want to make movies. That's cool. I didn't have like a lot of access to the Internet until I was around like eight or nine or so.

2:10

Right, because your parents were keeping you away from the Internet.

3:20

Yeah, they were smart.

3:23

Okay. But. But it sounds to me like they were very supportive of, of the kind of things that you went to. Right?

3:23

Yeah, yeah, ye.

3:29

And the fact like you said that they didn't hold you back and they just kind of let you experiment and play and basically just explore your creativity. So it seems to me like you were really into, you know, like you were kind of drawn to things that were off the visual arts. Like you were definitely attracted to visual.

3:30

Yeah, visuals. My brain is very like strictly visual most of the time. Like usually like words are visuals in my head rather than actual like sounds and stuff. So it's usually like very. Just visuals.

3:46

So you see things in your head, right?

3:56

Very, very clearly.

3:59

But I can't get it out somewhere.

4:00

I can't for some reason I can't do like written language in my head, but I can only do visuals. So it's like I kind of have. I totally get it quite a bit.

4:01

Yeah, that's super cool.

4:07

Yeah. So like I, I know that around that time I had PlayStation 3 and I was very into like I got into Minecraft for my friends and there was this game, Little Big Planet. Like these are sandbox games where you can like create functions. And so I was, you know, exploring what it's like to you know, create something under the guise of like A technically a 3D program, even though it's inside of like a game engine and it's like oriented as a game. I was sort of like getting the feeling for like, oh look, I can make a thing and then other people come in and interact with this thing. And then I can kind of upscale the feeling of like I want to curate this experience more and more. And these are not this, nothing about this was grand or like hyper compelling because it was like 9 and 10

4:08

and you know, okay, so you were doing all this around 9 or 10ish years old.

4:51

Yeah, but what I would, I guess I would highlight is like it's no different than what I think most of my peers were doing. Like even people who don't have a desire to go into art fields, it was like building stuff in Minecraft Creative mode was very like right, right for

4:55

you guys, you, you just playing basically, right?

5:08

It was playing and I would, I would take it a little more seriously probably where like I would like come up with super contrived rules for like some random like sub game we wanted to play or something. And then it was like, was simultaneously watching a lot of VFX driven work on YouTube, like independent YouTubers, like Order Crew sort of stuff, you know, encouraging people to just like hey, like any, anyone can kind of with the software you don't even need the good hardware for it. And it's like a simple camera, you can, you can do rudimentary VFX work. And I kind of got a bit of an appetite for that. And then I pirated way too much software and got a bunch of viruses and, and, and technically doing like some filmmaking stuff on like my parents phone. And it was kind of like game oriented largely like I was really into.

5:10

You know what this is actually good to talk about because what it does show is your journey to become a filmmaker actually went down two paths, right? Like you were shooting stuff, you were making little things on the side, but also like you, your brain of like being into the technical, like the computing side of things that then also informs the way you make your little shorts, right? Yeah. So you understanding the computing aspect of filmmaker, of just storytelling in general and how you would use that to inform the kind of stuff that you would make. And so that became a big part of what you did, right. You know, like a big part of like, you know, like all that sort of computer language and programming and understanding that you have there and sort of using that as the visual effects sort of backbones to what you were making your shorts with. And so I think that's really interesting that you didn't actually necessarily go down the path of, hey, I want to be a video game maker. But you sort of stuck to storytelling filmmaking, but using the craft that you had, the passion and you had learned, acquired to kind of assist you in your filmmaking.

5:50

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I definitely. It was around like the beginning of middle school that that's when I was, you know, getting the software and trying out After Effects for the first time and was like doing a bunch of tutorials. And it was mostly like project based where, you know, I would get excited about a scene or a visual or a moment in my head that I wanted to see exist, but it had. There's no nothing surrounding it supporting that moment. So it's like, okay, so now I got to learn how to do these things so I can make that moment. So I got to learn this software and also like, I need to learn how to edit it properly so I can put the right kind of reverb on this music that I'm hearing. Right. And like now, now when you need to like build a whole little short film around this moment. Right. Just so it makes sense in a context. And then that was kind of like, I asked, not accidentally, but I kind of just like went through the process a few times with a few different short films when I was again, like, these things are not. They're not on YouTube for a reason. Like I've privated them. Yeah. But like, you know, I was, I was definitely pretty active doing stuff in any free time I could get. It was like the only thing I would do starting. Starting in like end of elementary school. It just became a pretty like laser focused sort of obsession. And I think like it was. Once I got it once I really kind of like felt like I was getting a hang of After Effects and like the 3D tools available to me in there and taking advantage of some student licenses and stuff. Then that just kind of became an addiction and I was like, only, only using.

6:56

But you enjoy, right? You enjoy using these programs.

8:15

It's so much fun.

8:17

It's so funny because I started using After Effects in high school and you know, I started using it because it was part of my school program and stuff like that, but I got bored of it. The technical stuff. I enjoy the technical stuff of filmmaking and doing stuff like this. But they're just sitting. I got to a certain point where I'm like, this is just too Much for me, I just want to get out there. I just want to get out there and just shoot from the hip and just, you know, kind of, you know, just become a bit more run and gun. Right. I found the process a little bit too. The technical site, sometimes a little bit too limiting, at least for me. But clearly you enjoyed it, I think, and you embraced it.

8:18

Yeah, it's because I think the. I like, I have a hard time with uncontrollable variables and whatnot. So I think that for me, I enjoy a certain level of run and gun, but I think I am the kind of person who needs to know every single thing about the thing I'm making before any other people are even involved with it or before anything else, even before there's a chance for something to get away with.

8:53

You know what, that's a really good trait for a director to have to be well prepared.

9:15

Yeah, of course. But I think like, you know, because I was a kid in middle school, I wasn't like, I was doing filmmaking, but it wasn't like serious like it was inherently. There was like a joke component to what I was doing, but it was

9:18

like, you're just playing around. It wasn't a career path yet at that point. Right, Correct.

9:28

I wasn't thinking about it in that way. I did a few like, local level film festivals around that time and. And like, so, you know, part of my brain was definitely thinking about it in that way, but I was still thinking like, okay, time to go through high school and then I'll go to college for film school. And then, then I don't know what happens after that, but I'll probably make movies. It's like, Right. Some vague notion of that.

9:32

So. So let's talk about that. How in your did all of that, what you just stated there. Right. Led you to your very first short with back rooms. I'm sure you made a lot of other stuff before that, but how did all this lead to back rooms?

9:50

It was the beginning of the pandemic. I got into Blender. I started teaching myself Blender. I, you know, I was fortunate enough to have a situation where I was just, you know, blocked at home and I was doing zoom classes and I was able to sort of.

10:04

So this was 20.

10:17

20. 2020.

10:18

And how old were you?

10:19

I was 14.

10:21

Okay.

10:22

You know, I was getting into Blender. I was maybe didn't mention earlier, I'm a big fan of the Valve properties like Portal and Half Life and those majorly informed a lot of my creative sensibilities. I think growing up, and that was around the time Half Life Alyx was coming out. And I wanted to do fan art for that. And that got me, like, really motivated to figure some stuff out in Blender. And then I did some things and then I was like, wait a minute. Now I just kind of know how to use Blender. And so I could start within like a couple, like two weeks or so. Like, Blender's really intuitive. You know, when you're young and near software, you're able to kind of pick it up through osmosis kind of like quickly. But. But I do think it's just genuinely a. They. They've streamlined the software in such a way that it is, like, very accessible. But I, I, you know, started doing that. I made a few films again, like that year, but then by 2021, I. I had gotten back into Attack on Titan, which is, you know, obviously a pretty big property around the world. And I was basically adapting set pieces from that into found footage. But it was in like 1930s, 1940s war, like, film footage of like, set pieces inside that world and those. Like, that was when my channel actually took off.

10:23

Okay, wait, hang on. You were creating images for that? Yeah, but just, Just inventing, making them up on. Through Blender or whatever program you're doing.

11:26

Yeah, like, what I was doing is because it's an anime manga, this was

11:36

like a fan, kind of like, you

11:39

know, short of whatever, a fan project. So it's an anime and manga. And what I was doing was like a series of. Well, I did one thinking it was going to be one, but then people lost their minds over it, so I started doing more. But it was like, basically, what would it look like? What would an actual honest perspective into that world look like if it was somehow real? So just like, what does a scarier, more realistic approach of just viewing this thing look like? And so I. That's what I put out using Blender. So it's all things from the series, but just through a slightly different lens.

11:41

But was it through animation?

12:05

Like 2D animation, blender, 2D, lots of compositing. So it looked like, roughly. I mean, like, hoping you see past the VFX flaws. Like it. The goal being it looks like real, authentic, but real world from like 30s or 40s.

12:06

Live action.

12:20

Yeah, black and white, live action. Totally. Like, trying to look photoreal.

12:20

Right.

12:24

And. And so like that. I'd never had any kind of engagement like that before. It's like the first one did like 10 million views. And like the next one did like another 10 million. Like, wow. It kept like going big and my channel I think got 200,000 subscribers from that. And then wow. But I did that for all of 2021 and like I was riding a high with like that was, that was really exciting. It was great having you were getting

12:26

validation from basically fans out there.

12:46

Yeah. It was like motivation to like every week they wanted to do things. Like I was constantly kind of churning stuff out and that was just fun. That's cool because I.

12:48

Especially during the lockdown when you didn't really have.

12:56

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I certainly found a lot to do during that time. But then I got fatigued by it and because I used up all the plot points in the series that I could adapt and but people wanted more still and I was kind of like, okay, well I kind of want to do other things now that winter in 2021. I guess for a preamble I have to do a preamble about what the backrooms are. I would assume. Probably.

12:58

Please give us a little bit of history of where all that comes from.

13:19

Yeah. For 2019 there's this 4chan post which is totally anonymous. Anything posted there, at least in this context, is not really traceable. And we can't at this point in time determine who posted any of this, which has been a big defining part of the backrooms. It's weird, but basically there's an image posted of a like a off yellow sort of dingy. You know, it's unclear if it was an office space or the back of a furniture store or what with just a caption, like a single paragraph caption. Basically setting up a concept of if you're not careful and you noclip out of reality in the wrong areas. And noclip is a video game term for phasing through a solid surface like out of the world. If you fall out of reality in the wrong areas, you'll end up in the backrooms which is essentially an essentially endless array of like kind of not quite repeating. But you could think of it as like procedurally generated or. Right. Just like you could keep going, walking in any direction and you'll just be stuck in this world of, you know, drop ceiling, this yellow wallpaper that's just kind of like sulfur looking and.

13:21

Right. So it's amazing like well, that it just kind of keeps going.

14:25

It's a maze like world that doesn't have an inherent point to it and it.

14:29

Right.

14:31

And I think the idea, what I always appreciated is that it's just described like It's a natural phenomenon. There's nothing like spiritual or. There's no morality to it. So it's not like it's a divine judgment. If you've done wrong, if you've got guilt harbored, it'll take you away or something. It's just like.

14:32

It's not hell.

14:51

Yeah, it's not hell. It's not even quite purgatory because you don't do anything to end up there. It just randomly happens, and you can't really do anything to get out.

14:52

It's like you said, a procedural dungeon run. Yeah.

14:59

It's just a hypothetical. Like, it's just. It's playing into the. The feeling of glitching and getting stuck in a video game, basically. Exactly.

15:01

Right.

15:08

There's no fairness in it. It's just like. That really sucks if that happens to you. Right. And so that's why it kind of caught on as, like, a man. That's like a pretty abysmal. Can you imagine that? It's like, you know, imagine being in, like, that monotonous. You know, it's like such a mundane, mediocre sort of environment that could be in any place, basically. Yeah.

15:08

Because visually, it's not that sexy. Right? It's not. It's not like a dark cre plays. That's where people creep comes from. Just the mundaness of it. Just like, how bland it looks. Right.

15:29

I've seen.

15:38

And so it started with a picture, Right. Like that one picture. But then people started building upon it. Right. They started adding stories to it. So they're adding myth and law to it. Is that how.

15:39

So. So that picture. That picture was posted. Someone else saved it. I mean, that picture had been floating around since the early 2000s. It's from a furniture store in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. But basically, yeah, they posted it with a caption, and that became a screenshot. And then, like, that screenshot floated around, like, everywhere as a meme around May of 2019. And I saw it. I was in middle school. I was aware of it. I didn't see it, and immediately go, whoa, I need to make a. I need to make a series and a movie. And, like. Right. That was very. That wouldn't have ever crossed my mind. It was more of a. This is. This is a random thing on the Internet that is weirdly intriguing. And I can tell why people are interested in this, and I kind of want more of it, but there's nothing more to get because it's just an image and a caption and. And then I moved on and everyone else moved on. And we stopped caring about the backrooms for the most part. And you would get an occasional reference to it here and there. You would get memes. A character falls through the ground out of a tv like Peter Griffin falls through the sidewalk and lands in the background or something. And the punchline is just, wow, he's fucked, pretty much. And it basically, people, I understand now, and I did kind of understand at the time, there were some groups on wikis and stuff, writing, basically doing more with the notion of the backrooms, where it's like, what if there's sort of like a game, like, level system to it? And again, like, I'm. I don't mean to misrepresent like that side of the community, but it's in my understanding that's more of like a community driven sort of like the SCP foundation, if people are aware of that. It's sort of like most anyone can add because there's no direct author and there's no claim to authorship of this thing. So it's just like the main lore that people would consider outside of my adaptation of backrooms would be just kind of a miscellaneous collection of little entries that like many different people with many different views of the backrooms, but it's somehow viewed as one coherent thing, even though it's definitely not. Got it.

15:49

So then you came into it.

17:41

Yeah.

17:43

And then tell us your contribution to the world.

17:43

I mean, I just wanted to, like, I didn't. In my mind, I wasn't thinking of, like, these people are not getting the backrooms. I'm gonna step in and show them how to. It was not. No, no. I was just into, you know, like, I was getting back, like, all great things in life.

17:48

You know, it's a discovery process. Right. And you discovered it.

18:01

I was getting back into these liminal space photo compilations and stuff. And it was like, man, this is. I want to scratch this itch. I want to see what comes of this. And I went in Blender and I made environments that felt true to what the backrooms wanted to be and were trying to be. And I just kind of like moved the camera through and it's like, this is just a fun, relaxing project where I try to evoke the. Of this place, but in a video form rather than imagery. I didn't even. Like, the opening thing was just like a thing I filmed after I did everything else, when I was like, it's like, okay, well, to make this a proper, like, film, like, how do I. What's a way in What's a quick, easy way in that just gets us out of the real world and into the rest of the short. And it's like. Just got my friends at school one day just to stand around and they didn't really know what it was for exactly. And I just like, got my. I was doing it on my phone and I ran the whole thing through the vcr, so. So it, you know, it's doesn't look like iPhone footage really, but. And then just like at the end of it, just make the camera go to the ground and they're like, what was that? Why did you do that? And it's like, I'll show you in a few days and then show you

18:04

in a few days.

19:00

And it got posted and it didn't do great for like the first two days. And then somehow I guess like some. Some shadow figure behind the scenes pulled a lever or something because it like it suddenly started getting in the inboxes of. Or sorry, in the, like the. The feeds of certain reaction youtubers and they started watching it and then that made it like, go. Go nuts.

19:01

Wow.

19:20

And I went nuts and. But pretty much immediately within the same day, because I'm neglecting to mention one kind of important part of this, I think, which is that I had had this other story and you know, as you do, just another random story that I had in my head right. For a little bit at the time, it wasn't defined exactly, but it was like enough of an engine there that it was like I knew I wanted to explore it, didn't know how, like, what the opportunity would be. And I realized backrooms could just totally, like these two things could melt together and then boom, there's like a very specific plot and structure that I can just start immediately. And I did. And so like within like a day of that first short, I started teasing this element with like, this. The Async Research Institute, which makes it more of a sort of. Sort of like a worn down, like a. Like a mystery techno thriller with supernatural elements like underneath. I'm not great with genre labels, but I would say that's kind of what it's become.

19:21

Right, right, right. So obviously it started very innocently, but then as you sort of like progress and the ideas came to you, like, oh, may can put a supernatural spin to this.

20:12

Yeah, well, I think it's inherently supernatural. When I say super, like my version of supernatural. I personally am really drawn to any, like, I. I need my supernatural to feel like hard sci fi usually got it. I like things to feel like nature. I mean, like, I was talking about the back rooms. I. I think I personally, as a creative struggle with things that promote an overly human view of existence and of life. And usually I'm biased towards things that feel like humans are incidental to nature in some way, rather than being like a driving factor to the world that we live in and letting like, the laws of the universe be more, more, you know, factors that resulted in our consciousness being the way it is and perceiving a sort of sense of importance being like, derived from just happenstance and being essential to existing and living and procreating and stuff. So anyway, I feel like what I was excited about with that concept was being able to sor. Of get past like, the initial. Like, okay, we have a short about someone falling into the back rooms. And it's a scary. It is a scary place. And I think it's like, more intriguing than people give it credit for. Like, I think people do miss the mark sometimes with their own backrooms projects. When they go for like a space where the lights get too dark, it gets too green, it's like scary, scary. Like if it's trying to be like a dark haunted house or a dungeon, it just falls apart. Because that's not Right.

20:21

Right, right.

21:41

The original image is very bright and it's very like low contrast and kind of like faded looking.

21:42

So you're saying try key here is to not make it look like a horror movie. Yeah, no, I think that the blandness, the simplicity, the fact that it feels like everyday life is what makes it kind of terrifying.

21:46

It's the context in the way it extrapolates pretty much infinitely. That's where the horror lies. It can't be in the inherent visual. It's the context that does it. Right. Though the visual is off putting.

21:58

And can I ask you so philosophically, do you think there is this concept of the fear of technology or. Obviously that's not the case because, you know, you're obviously embracing technology in such a big way. But, but do you think. Is that what you're speaking to, to some degree here when you said, you know, like, you sort of leaning to the. More like the hard science of where, you know, a lot of, like, the scary stuff is coming from?

22:10

Yeah. So I would say that the backrooms is a thing in the first place because. Well, I mean, I would say one of the main anxieties it's reacting to, if not the main anxiety, is the sort of pervasive. I don't want to use the word anxiety again, the Pervasive fear that, you know, with all the resources that we, I guess at least in this part of the world where we have the resources and we have the connection of the Internet, are feeling like is, you know, we have more information than ever. It's starting to mean less and less the more we get. Information is starting to get put through a blender and fed back to us in a way where the human race is now starting to roleplay as itself. It almost starts to seem a little bit. We trapping the matrix a little bit. But, but I think that like gradually. And this is not like new. And I'm not saying anything like profound about this because I think, I think we've known this for a while, but we've been like trending for a few centuries into like a spiral of industrialism that's causing. And it's not like malice, it's not like malicious by any means. I mean, like, yes, there are individual people that you could name and say they are malicious and that's easy to do, but, but it's, it's the fact that it's a natural phenomenon that arises in like every culture and it's a systemic thing that is almost impossible to root out of our species. Yeah. And so there's these, you know, obviously patterns beyond us that I try to engage with in a sympathetic way. And, and I think that like the backrooms is reacting to the fear of like, okay, we're, we're kind of getting stuck in this, this monoculture literally even like in an architectural context where you are everywhere you go. Like a drop ceiling is maybe not the most prevalent. It's not like everywhere in the world, but like at least in this part of the world, like drop CE are kind of a symbol of uniformity or. That's right. Or I guess efficiency. I mean, they're pretty, pretty effective at what they do. They're not bad. I'm not criticizing the job ceiling, but

22:34

it's functionality to them. But they're not the most interesting of forms.

24:27

It's the idea of spending all of existence in that place, in that non space basically of like that, that industrial environment that's.

24:31

It is purgatory to some degree.

24:39

It is, it is. It's a purgatory that we built. It's not like a, like a purgatory beyond humanity. It's like one we're clearly pushing ourselves towards. But we're building prisons for ourselves.

24:41

That's essentially what is. We're building prisons for our souls, if you will.

24:51

Yeah, it's again, it's like, getting us further and further from what the human nervous system evolved to basically thrive on. And. And we're kind of getting past a place where, like, you know, we evolved into our environments and then we changed the environments, and now we're. I wouldn't be surprised if that's doing. Doing something to. To a lot of the subconscious and just the general, you know, energy and health of. Of. Of people. I know.

24:55

Su Can I ask you then, So a lot of these themes that you have in your head, did you feel like the back rooms, you know, like the. That was a great, like, a good platform for you to explore other ideas that you have. So, like, what led to, like, subsequent, you know, like, other shorts that came along, you know, like, in the back rooms? Well, did you started going, I want to explore, you know, like, other elements within this world, and then that basically what let you down, like, the series of them?

25:21

Yeah, I wanted to, I mean, largely express what I was just talking about a little bit. It was like, a lot of it for me is just exploring these ideas myself. And I want a way to check myself and test myself, and if I can find a way to wrap up these, you know, academic ideas in a creative package, then I can get creatively excited about it. And it's like Medicine with the sugar, sort of where I'm, like, internalizing these things and testing myself on these things, not. Not in, like, a truth. There's no compare. Like, this is not comparable at all to, like, an actual school experience. It's not what I'm trying to say with that, but for me, just as someone who enjoys learning and enjoys just knowing more about literally anything.

25:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:26

It's kind of what the film is about in some ways, is like, you know, that part of the brain that forces human beings into a state of curiosity.

26:26

So did you find when you started making, you know, the series of these shorts, that there were many people out there that shared the same. Interesting as you, like, you know, the people were fascinated by what you were doing and that wanted to see more of it. Is that what kind of like, kind of forced you down that path or not forced, but, you know, made you want to, you know, go down and continue?

26:33

I was very aware that those people existed. And it was kind of the audience that I was, the audience that I speak to is the audience that I'm also a part of, which I think is maybe why I've had a decent rhythm with them for as long as I have, which is like, I grew up watching, like, like web series and args and, like, consuming that stuff and. And not necessarily. When I say watching, it's, I guess I mean, just following, because sometimes it's not even something to watch. Sometimes it's. You're visiting a webpage and you're looking at the metadata of files shared on that page and you get story information from that. Or you're, you know, like, a lot of the time you're actually paying attention to a YouTuber who's talking about and summarizing a series. Because. Because sometimes these series get so dense and complex and hard to follow that the real story, like a more entertaining story, is. Is in the recap of it.

26:54

Right?

27:43

So I kind of, like, engineered my stuff to work on a recap level, I think, and a lot of the stuff on YouTube has been exactly that. And I've. I was amazed, like, I was kind of losing my mind when. When the shorts first caught on, because it was like all the people I looked up to online were, like, suddenly talking about it, and for obvious. For obvious reasons. That would be exciting, I think, for. For anyone in that position. But it was like, can you mention who. People just, like, YouTube channels, like, like random people, Nexpo, Nightmind. I think just, like, forget, like, a full list at the time. But it was like, film theory.

27:43

That's so cool, right? It was, you know, like, it must have been validated.

28:17

It was cool. It felt like. It felt like it was very weird. It was. It was bizarre. It was bizarre. It was validating, but also like, is this real?

28:20

Yeah.

28:28

But I guess it was just like, seeing, like, getting it through my teenage head that, like, the world that I watch on a screen and I know this is so obvious, and I knew it, but I didn't feel. It was like, I guess, like, when I was younger, like, so many of the things that I looked up to artistically, sort of like above in some way, like, there's some inaccessible barrier there where it's like you could never meet these people. You could never, never, never, never interact with this brand or this fictional world in any meaningful way.

28:28

I felt like it's in a different world.

29:00

You can do fan art, but, like, you don't get up there and it's with.

29:01

With this, you actually have the opportunity to break through. And that's kind of what you did, right?

29:05

And it happened in a very casual way with no fanfare. I mean, it was exciting, but it was like, it's very simple. And I was like, oh, this is what it is. This is how it feels that's usually

29:09

how it always works. When you expect it, that's when it, you know, good stuff happens, right? You just do what you do, be passionate about what you want to do. And. And like, I've always said, you know, like, I. I say that to. To sort of young filmmakers like yourself and, you know, anyone out there who asks me for advice, I just say, just make your movies. Just do it. And, you know, if you do something great, people will discover it. Especially with technology that we have today, right? Like YouTube. I mean, like, there's so many platforms out there that you can just put it out there, go shoot something for no money. You don't need money. You just. You can shoot anything with your phone these days, right? You don't need a special camera. It's like, like I had to have when I was growing up making these little shorts. So just go make something and put it out. They can be anything, and you're bound to find fans. And that, that fandom could. Doesn't matter how small they are, how big they are, it helps to flame the creativity in you and it makes you want to do more. And so. And I think that's kind of basically what happened for you, right?

29:16

I mean, I've been. I continued doing. I did a few different series on YouTube, and I've been doing YouTube all the way up until things became hot enough on this film that we were good to go, and I was able to jump over to full.

30:10

Can I ask you, how many shorts did you make of the Backroom series?

30:19

I don't know the number. It's like three hours or so currently. So it's enough of. It's like. It's like a bit where it's like the Async has an arc and then there's a few, like, there's like three videos that aren't from that perspective, but are kind of like the first short where.

30:23

So then, okay, I need to ask this. At what point during any of this process did you eventually say to yourself, or thought to yourself that, hey, one day I could potentially turn this into a feature film?

30:36

Well, I mean, it was. I. I put out those shorts in January of 2022, or I started doing it. The first short went out in January 7th. It was like less than a month later that I started getting my first emails from anyone in the industry. I had no interaction with anyone in the industry ever, like, prior to that point. So I was definitely. I was caught off guard. I was very cautious and paranoid because I was like, I've grown Up seeing just like so many beloved IP just get torn to shreds by, you know, random suits in the industry who grab an ip, take it, pulverize it by giving it to some writer who knows nothing about the property, and then, boom, it's dead and everyone hates the movie. And it was not maybe a worthwhile adventure. So I was cautious of that. I had that in my head and was assuming, okay, if I don't find something really helpful, that's what it's going to be. So I met with a lot of people and it was like, it turned into no meetings ever. And then suddenly, in February, I think every single day, every weekday, had three meetings, like generals.

30:47

So it really happened that quickly, almost instantly.

31:46

It was like a binary. Like, it switched on.

31:50

That's incredible.

31:52

And I. Atomic Monster was one of the first. Or it was like within the first. I think it was like the second week of that, probably.

31:53

Right.

32:00

And then I met with 21 laps as well. And I did, like. I remember being conflicted and I forget the exact order of things, but. But then. But then there was. You guys came together together. Yeah. And then I talked to all you guys together, and that was sort of like, oh, you guys solved the conundrum I was having because I liked. I liked Atomic and I had 21, and then, boom, they decided they want to do a thing together, so.

32:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, listen, we, you know, credit to you because we saw the potential in it and we felt like, you know, we wanted to work with you. We, like, you know, we. We saw, you know, like, the kind of brain that you have, the kind of creativity that you have, and we definitely saw the potential that you have to kind of take this project and make it something bigger. Right. Like, you know, kind of break it into the feature world. And.

32:18

And, yeah.

32:38

And so, you know, between, you know, us at atomic monster and 21 last, we're like, let's collaborate, let's collaborate. And the more the merrier.

32:39

Thank you for doing that.

32:46

We can do with this.

32:47

Yeah. So.

32:47

So I'm glad to hear from your perspective how that came together.

32:49

I mean, I was thinking under the terms of just like, there are unknown. Unknowns everywhere. So I'm just going to make sure I don't do anything without, like, quadruple checking in. And so I was very thorough about, like, you know, beginning a process with you guys. And it was. I mean, it was just very. I felt it was very positive, and I felt like it was what I was looking for. And that's Cool. What I was looking for and was, was really like, backrooms on YouTube is very creatively fulfilling for me and I will do it. I can, will do more in the future. And I'm not like, leaving YouTube by any means, but. No, no, I, it's great, great. But, but, but it is limited. Like, it came about because I guess, like, what you were saying a moment ago with, you know, the accessibility of YouTube and filmmaking and whatnot, is that, like, I, I, like, I found when maybe what I would advise, although I'm not, I don't feel like I'm quite at a place to give advice yet. I maybe should let this film come out and then like, wait a year or two before I start saying anything.

32:51

No, man, you can always give advice. I, I, I feel like in the short period of time, you've experienced a lot. Yeah, right. You can speak to your.

33:44

I can give anecdotes and I can give.

33:52

Exactly. And then people can kind of like, you know, latch onto whatever because, because

33:53

almost the first thing I would say is like, the thing I've learned the most is like, what worked for one person. Like, don't expect it to work for you in a way, unless it's like a universal truth or something. Like, it's, it's kind of like it feels like the most simple thing you do have to follow is, is I think what I managed to do, whether or not I realized it with the backroom stuff and with what I was doing on YouTube, is like, I found a rough thing that I could achieve. It's like, what can I do with free software on a laptop in blender and a bit of after effects touch up? Like, what can I do there with no extra anything? No live action shooting, no actors, no, like, what, Just me behind a microphone. Like, what can I do there? And then what's the. If I just keep working on that, refining that until it becomes like the best version of itself. It becomes like a unique product that I just said cut. That I just said production product. Oh, my God. This is what happens when I go to la.

33:57

Yeah.

34:46

I absorb the language.

34:46

This is how it starts, my friend.

34:47

I know, I know. This is why I'm in this business

34:49

for one movie and now. No, I'm kidding.

34:51

This is why I'm going to the woods after. I'd say, it's so great stuff to

34:53

have because I had to take it

34:58

to market and we had to make this movie so objectively, it is a product.

34:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's an item. It's an item when there's so much money involved. You know, like, listen, as artistic as we want to be, as much of like, auteurs as we want to be, we have to think about, you know, like, the studios that are financing our movies, the investors that are financing our movies, and we do kind of have to treat it, you know, to some degree with that respect. And the key here is, you know, for someone like myself who's been and been doing this for a while now, is like, how do you somewhat appease what the investors are looking for, but yet making it your own. So every movie that you make should be personal to you, you know, like, it doesn't matter how commercial it is. You know, like the big filmmakers that I truly respect, all filmmakers, small filmmakers as well, but from the likes of Steven Spielberg to Burton to whomever, right. They. They're able to play in that commercial world, but yet every movie is super, super personal to them. And that is how I approach with all my movies. And I think that's who you are as well. I feel like whatever movies you make here onwards, everything would be highly important for you. Every film you make will speak to you on some level that you want to talk about, you know, that that's good to have. So, you know, you just got to be mindful. You, you know, as. As a director now making these kind of movements, movies, you kind of have to wear two hats, right?

35:02

Yeah. What I feel is like, again, going back to, like, because I do get full creative satisfaction out of doing stuff on YouTube that is equal to what I do here. There's almost no difference. It's just. It's a bit of a different process. And I socialize a lot more when working, like. Like I just did on backrooms, but. But I, like, in terms of fulfillment, it's identical. And I do make a living off of YouTube. Like, it's, you know, it's. It's. I don't need much. I have a desk and I have a laptop.

36:20

That's amazing.

36:45

Stand in an empty room at my desk.

36:45

There's something I want to ask before we get further down here. Okay. Because, like, this is so great to kind of hear talk about, you know, the history and how you started all this. You know, obviously you started very young doing all this stuff. Right. Your parents, what do they think about all of this, you know, when you were just starting out and then eventually now, you know, you're making your first feature film in Hollywood. How do they feel? They must be super proud and they must feel, you Know, like, I don't know, it must be surreal for them as well to see, you know, the trajectory and the journey that they as soon have taken. Taken.

36:48

Yeah, I, I, I don't want to speak for them, but, but I would. They are proud and, and they're, I mean, my parents are both really great people and have obviously, like, they've been very supportive, been so supportive at like, every point in my life and have always, like, you know, helped this come about in a way, like by just, by not doing it, but just by not being in the way. I think it's like being, you can be too hands on and you can be two hands off. And I think they were just like,

37:17

they found the right balance.

37:42

They found the right balance. Yeah. And, you know, like, I, they, they get what's going on and they, you know, like, they're not in the industry, so it's not like they get it. Get it. But, but where do they live?

37:42

Where do you live?

37:56

Me and all of them, we live in Northern California, like Sonoma county, like, up there. Oh, okay. All right.

37:57

That's where you're from.

38:01

Okay. Yeah. Like Sonoma, Marin. Right. And I, you know, like, like, they get it. And like, I talk to them like once a week or so. Like, I'll, I'll call them individually and, and talk to my parents and try to talk to my young. And it's been hard on this film just because of how busy it's been to, like, stay in contact with everyone in my life. Yeah.

38:02

When you're making a movie, you're pretty much isolated from the rest of the world.

38:23

Yeah. Whatever happens, I don't mind. I, like, I usually am this way, so it's fine.

38:26

Yeah.

38:30

But it's.

38:31

For people like us, it's actually not a bad thing.

38:31

No, it works quite well. It's been like 10% more than I'm maybe used to, so it's been a little more on the intense side. But, like, again, I'm here for that. But, but yeah, they, they, I try to, you know, loop them in and they're going to be coming to the premiere when we do that next week. And it's going to be, you know, a whole lot of fun, exciting up front. And, you know, they've, they've, you know, they're, they're familiar with the film. Like, they got to, they were, I was showing them everything we were doing as we were building up to this. And, and so, you know, they, and my dad's always, like, on YouTube, looking at, like, reaction Videos to my stuff. And he's constantly, constantly, like, he knows.

38:33

Good, good, good. That's what they should be doing as parents.

39:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

39:09

So, okay, I want to talk about your feature film experience. Right, so you've transitioned from these shorts into, you know, the process into making a feature film through this pretty big infrastructure, right? You know, of making this feature with, you know, a proper film crew. Up until now, you've pretty much done everything yourself, right?

39:10

Yeah, mostly.

39:31

And your actors are your friends, but now you're moving into the super big world and into the big league, so to speak, and you're working with professional crew, professional cast and actors. You know, what was that like? What was it like for you at the very start of that initial process? Was it overwhelming or did you fully embrace it? Or was it a little bit of everything?

39:32

So unlike some things that I've mentioned in our conversation, like, that wasn't abrupt, like there was a very gentle lead into that that made sense over a period. And so, you know, I went up to Vancouver to do a test shoot in April. So that would have just happened over a year ago. And that was my first time working with a crew that is not my personal friends from high school or something. And so that I think I had questions in my head, but I think it was easy enough because it was a skeleton crew, it was pretty small, and we were doing a very minimal lean test shoot. And I think there was something I found which was. I had it in my head wondering all these notions of what a director has to be and what I have to be facilitating. What do I not know know? I. I'm. I'm assuming there's a million things I do not know. And I'm thinking of all the ways that could poison the process.

39:56

But what I found, you don't know could be a good thing, right? Or you don't know what you don't know.

40:46

Yeah, but. But exactly like, I don't know what I don't know. So, like, I'm like, you know, doing what I can't. But I'm like, I'm realizing, like, as I'm getting there and we're starting and it's like, like, wait, that's all. That's all you can. That's all anyone can do. That's like literally what I'm just. I go here, I know what I want. I don't know why I'm overthinking that part. I just need to tell the people around me what I want in a concise manner and explain why we want it so they can also be personally motivated to achieve that thing. And then we're just doing that in a few different ways. And then we, the day's done and we got what we wanted and boom. And then we do it again. And like, I, I guess I just, I, I think I did overthink it up front. And again those were, that was just the test shoot. So it was a bit of a. I guess I'll jump to when we were going to day one. It was the same kind of thoughts coming back again. It was like, okay, that was small before. Like what if, what if? It's gonna be so many people now that I haven't met. Like during pre production I gotta. To work with all these department heads. And you're saying like how. Working with my, all the actors and my friends before, like I would say everyone that I worked with at that point, by the time we went to camera were my friends now. And like, right, that's great. It's cool. The cast and crew and everyone is like. It was a very friendly vibe across the board.

40:51

Yeah. So it was a collaborative experience for you. So yeah, you felt like, you know, what you were asking for people kind of step up and kind of help to deliver the vision of what you, you were.

41:54

Yeah, like so, so we went to, when, when I went up to Vancouver and we got greenlit a few days into. We had like a few days of prep and then we needed to get greenlit before we could continue and but when that was happening, you know, I was, I was meeting all the heads of all the departments and, and we, we had kind of met before a little bit. They all know each other and they're all friends and it's like part of like, you know, a great group that, that sort of Chris, the producer up in Vancouver, who I work closely with and has sort of like really helped bring together over a good period of time. And so they're all very tightly knit and it's pretty great up there. But I.

42:03

So you. Just to clarify, you found the pre production process of planning the movie and kind of like laying it out and talking to the crew and you know, talking to producers and locations and sets and stuff like that, you found all that pretty smoothly. The actual process, it was smooth.

42:39

I mean it wasn't easy, but it was, it was smooth. We were getting, making films. Yeah, it was time consuming and like used all my brain power each day, but was like, we got through it and I enjoyed it.

42:59

You find that at any time that the, the Sort of the bigger machination of filmmaking that kind of, kind of like went against how you used to do things.

43:09

No, no.

43:22

Okay, good.

43:23

No, it felt like it. Identical scaling of what I normally do.

43:24

That's great.

43:29

Like the, when I get there, I mean, I brought my computer with me, my laptop, and like, all the sets that we built because our production office was on the soundstage or like right outside of it. And so we would like, we had these four big stages that we could build on and we were working out, like, you know, like our construction budget at the time and everything. And I in the script, like, we were iterating on the script as we were going through prep and stuff. So some things were changing and so everything was changing a little bit. And it's too hard to describe the exact order in which things changed. Changed. Like one change would retroactively affect the thing that changed that change and whatnot. But. Right. But like, the sets are all, like, I made them all in blender. Like, I designed all the sets and it's pretty much one for one for what we have in the movie. Like, those all exist in the blender files. And you know, like, I would cross reference and talk with Jeremy Cox, the VP I worked with, who's great. And you know, like, I would kind of like, I was showing him how to use a bit of blender so we could like, send files back and forth if he wanted to tweak a few things to, you know, on the day.

43:29

Really cool.

44:28

Build the sets to accommodate files for shots that we wanted because we were shot listing in blender as well.

44:29

So basically you were doing that like, previs, right?

44:35

Yeah, it was previz on everything.

44:37

Yeah, yeah. That's fantastic.

44:39

So you can.

44:40

You pretty much previz the whole movie.

44:41

That's what I mean when I say, like, I, I, I need like the variable control up front. So I know I, I like knowing every single bit of what we're going to do and let everything be deliberate.

44:42

Your process and your, the way your mind works. You know, where you need to be in control. You need to kind of like be prepared. Really helps with, as you can see, the filmmaking process. Right. Like, there's nothing worse for a director on a film set. There's nothing worse for a film crew. And a production is a director that is not prepared.

44:52

Yeah, yeah.

45:10

It's horrible.

45:11

It's horrible.

45:11

If they don't know what they want, they don't know how to achieve it. That's really draining on a production. And so someone like you, it's it's a, it's a breath of fresh air to come in so prepared, knowing exactly the work, what they want, what they want the characters to be, what they want, the shot, the scenes to feel like that goes a long way. And I think, you know, I think that helps with why the transition for you was kind of pretty, pretty smooth going.

45:12

Yeah. I would also then just like, you know, sing the praises of all the people we worked with because like, everyone in all of the departments are like, genuinely like, incredibly nice, really productive and really focused people. People that obviously would like, give them infinite credit on this. Like, like really the sets, like I, I made them in blender, but like, you know, even the construction crew who like, they were like tirelessly going at this thing, it's like 30,000 square feet of, of background as we built.

45:39

Incredible. The set looks amazing. Yeah, it looked really cool. But again, you know, the, the crew really wants to, you know, help you bring your vision to life.

46:04

Right.

46:11

And so like, we trusted you because, you know, this movie is, you know, it is an ulta driven film. And so like, so it's kind of great that, that everyone TR Wants to help you bring all that, you know, to fruition.

46:12

Yeah.

46:26

And, and it looks amazing.

46:26

Very generous of you guys.

46:28

You know. Hey, man. No, seriously. Yeah, we, we, you know, we take our lead from someone like yourself. And I want to talk about what was it like, you know, collaborating with. With Oz Osgood.

46:29

Oh, he's great.

46:40

Yeah. How was he like?

46:41

Yeah, so, so it was, it was before we. It was after the test shoot. It was before we went, went to get greenlit, like before we went up to Vancouver for the long stay, for the long haul. And I met because Chris works closely with Oz and Oz is like basically at every step of the way.

46:44

I mean, Oz is a producer. Just to explain.

47:00

He's a producer.

47:02

Oz Gerd Perkins is a producer. He's a director in his own right as well, but he's a producer here on the film with us.

47:02

Yeah, he was writing his next film while like, we were in prep on this. And so he'd be like, just hovering around the entire time, just hanging out and, and like a big brother to some degree, right? Yeah, and he's, he's great. And, and we would like. I know like when I first got there, it was like we would just like every Friday we would just go to a little theater and like, watch a movie that would like, help for the film. It was like, I remember that when we first got there, we just like, went and rented out a theater and just, like, watched 2001 on the screen, which was, like, a lot of fun. But then we basically, like, like, he, he was very helpful, I think, in. Because there's a certain level of, of change and iteration that went on with, you know, the, the script and getting it right for the project that I've, you know, I've put out online over the years. And people are so specific about, like, I think maybe that's not always taken into account. Actually, I know it's not taken into account because it's been something I've had to sort of fight for a little bit along the way in like, a healthy manner. It's like, reasonable. Why it wouldn't be considered because it's a. It's a bit insane when I say it out loud, but, like, because it's a very, like, it's not just a fan base thing. It's not my fan base. It's not a group of people. It's kind of a prevalent mindset that has come from, I think, my generation who has grown up with the Internet. A lot of the same YouTubers and a lot of the same mentalities around media deconstruction. And it's. There's been this notion that when it comes to, like, Internet driven horror, especially horror is the main target for this. But anything that's mysterious or horror driven and comes from the Internet is like, okay, so that means it's got to be riddled with Easter eggs. And those Easter eggs are crucial to the plot. And like, the plot, the true story, is lying under the surface. There's like a. There's a meta level to this thing. There's like, you can zoom in all these things. There's like, the expectation is there's a lot of rich, really specific information. And, you know, I knew that because I'm a part of that group of people who think that. And I'm used to projects that give me that level of, like, engagement and depth and like, growing up with that. So. So when I'm making the backrooms web series, I'm designing it as such. And when, you know, a object or like a light switch or a pillar or something moves over a few feet to the right, it's not because, oh, we had to move it there because of, like, some logistical thing or like, we had to rebuild the set and there was a pillar there, so we had to account for, like, a slight shift. It's like, no, it has to be because of the narrative reason, because the building shifted in Some way. And that means something that will get addressed later on so people can kind of catch things like that.

47:09

Right? Right.

49:37

I made them not. It's not a mistake. I love it. But it's like, I made the deliberate decision to let audiences know that those little things aren't random and that they can expect anything they catch. Like.

49:37

Right.

49:51

It puts them on guard that, like, there could be a lot of things they don't know are important until later. Right.

49:51

And sometimes you need multiple viewings to catch little. Yeah.

49:56

Like, the stuff I make on YouTube is built to be. And I would say even the movie is built to be paused and analyzed. It's not meant to. It's. It. It's inherently made for that. That is.

49:59

That is nuts.

50:10

And I think that, you know, trying to bring that to this level. Right. Involves asking for a lot of things that seem unproductive to people who aren't

50:11

trivial or weird even. Right?

50:19

Yeah.

50:21

It's like, why is he doing that?

50:21

You know? And we didn't win every battle because it's impossible, because we don't have the resources to paint out every tiny cable and conduit that aren't exactly from 1990. And, like, the fire sprinkler models aren't exactly the model that would have been used in this type of piping in this year and stuff. Stuff like. And I know it's. This is what I mean. It's like, come on, guys, like, give the film some slack. But. But I know my audience.

50:23

Listen, your IMDb page, you need to give the little. The goof section something for them to write about, right?

50:46

Yeah, But. But anyway, I love him to death. And. And I think that, you know, that synchronizing, you know, everyone on that, like, took a minute just to explain why we had to do it, but. But then we got. We did a lot. We got a lot of mileage in that area.

50:52

So can I ask. So knowing you, a lot of that kind of thinking, and partially because that's who you are as well, did you. Was that a fine balance between that and a more traditional storytelling script that you guys had to write to get it out there? Cause this is not just little vignettes of moments. Right. You have to tell a pretty straightforward narrative to some degree. Right. That has a start at zero mark and has to end at an hour and a half or two hours into the movie. Right. Was that a bit of a process for you?

51:07

No, I think the YouTube series knew what it was, and it wasn't meant to be a substitute for Something structurally similar to a feature film.

51:39

So you're saying as a feature, you approach it different to how you approach your shorts?

51:47

Definitely. I think the shorts have their arcs. They're very vignette driven, like you said, where you get a lot of these pieces that, you know, for people online, it makes sense to put these things together and then the, the story comes through repeated viewing and stuff, or even one viewing, you'll get it. But it's like not. Maybe not appreciated to its fully degree, fullest degree because it's. It's sort of like a, like, I guess a more concept driven version of the perspective into the story where it's not quite, you know, the hope. I think I meant to say this earlier, but, like, you know, with the desire to do, like, did I want to do a film with backrooms? It was like, yes. And the goal would have been to like, sort of get the foot in the door to, you know, get audiences who are not up to speed on my version of the backrooms and who are not, you know, quite. I think the idea would have been to make something that worked for my audience that had direct continuity with what

51:51

I've made and people, yeah. Have no idea what it is.

52:42

And so it could be a first step that kind of does the same thing that first short did in terms of sort of like opening the door to it and then the real, like, thing. Literally. Exactly. When I talk about having something in the, like the ending that I want to reverse engineer from or like have that moment I really want to get to, it's like, that's not. That's like, like I. There's so much stuff I love every step along the way. But like, this is all driving in a direction where I would say the, you know, the material that is planned and is written out is like, it goes outside the confines of the YouTube series and it goes outside the confines of the film. These things lay inside a broader, I guess, like tree of the. Of the narrative.

52:46

Right, so which leads me to your cast. Right. This is the first set of, I would say, professional actors that you've worked with. And. And so what was it like working with Chiw and Renata?

53:22

I mean, it was.

53:35

And everyone else in the movie.

53:36

Yes, and everyone. Yeah, everyone was great across the board. And I was saying earlier about them being my friends. I do mean that they're lovely, lovely people. And I think it was like, like in the case of like, when we were casting Clark and it's like he was true to, like, I, I had seen some of his stuff, like the stuff he's directed and, and I, you know, I, I like his brain. I was very curious about like, you know, talking to him and could have whacked and I did. He's great. They're both, both great. But I met with him first. He was the first person that we were really going out to. And I mean, he was the first and only person we spoke to about the character. Because I really got it in my head that, like, after that conversation I had with him and seeing the things he was curious about with the project and with the backrooms in general and you know, just the general, you know, understanding of culturally what the backrooms is, where it comes from and what it needs to achieve to be a meaningful addition to anything. It's just like, okay, so he gets it and he got a curiosity that's. I, like, I found this with Renata. Very much so as well, is like, I like when I can tell they've got like the people I'm working with have like a personal curiosity they're trying to fulfill with this thing. Like some. Some reason that they're something they're trying to find beyond. Just like, my agent set this up and I want to like, right, let's do a horror film. It's like, not that at all. It was very much like there was something almost spiritual or profound about it.

53:37

Yeah, they're bringing their personal life and story into the character, which. That's what you always want.

54:55

That's all. That's exactly what you want. And I just found that I enjoyed the conversations we were having. I mean, I guess it's like given the level of interiority needed for like some of the stuff with Renata. And I knew they would be fits for like the pieces we needed them to fulfill. And then obviously, once we actually went to production, it was mostly the case of they made my job supremely easy.

55:00

Right.

55:27

But it was a good case of just like, like they would, you know, hang out like behind the camera. They wouldn't go off. They would like, you know, be around and just like chat with people. And it was like very good natured and fun and. And I think it helped like again, having those sets that were like there and it wasn't cg and you could like walk through them and not see the blue screens and not see. You could like walk through several rooms before you realize you're on a set.

55:28

That's really cool.

55:50

And so it's like I was trying to provide as like answers to any question they could possibly have and have. Know where the walls are and basically let things still be fluid while, like, very strictly knowing what can and can't happen. So that, you know, we. We stay on a very tight course narratively so we arrive at the right spot.

55:51

That's really cool. Yeah. And they. You basically use their characters as. As a way in. Into the world, especially for people that. That are not familiar with this world. And, and they basically, you know, they. They play everyday people, right. That get caught in this crazy, surreal backroom, you know, liminal space horror, so to speak. Right. And. And they really kind of captured the. The idea that, you know, they're these two guys, you know, two people that are. That are like, stumbling into this supernatural world and not knowing what is going on. And they have to. And the more they dig into it, the more they discover how this particular space reflects themselves. Right. Their personality. And I think that's really great, you know, between yourself and the screenwriter, what you guys shape and create it in terms of a story to try and bring in audiences that are not familiar with. With this particular world.

56:07

Yeah, I'm glad it came through in that way. Definitely. Like, that was a pretty huge focus and I think it's kind of crucial to the project. So we don't have like a insane. It's definitely more of a scenario where the risk would be putting too much lore and information into a single film rather than trying to scale up like a short that's not built for a feature into something larger. So it was like. And so I think we trimmed. Trimmed out like, or were rather focused on the right. Most foundational elements of what made the idea work, the backrooms, as a general idea, and found a way. And that does not involve or necessitate a understanding of where this YouTube series goes, but it still relates to it in some way.

57:04

One of the things I do want to talk to you about is your shorts were made for YouTube. And so people generally, for the most part, watched it on their iPhones, on the computer, on their iPhone, iPads. But now here you are making a theatrical version of the feature film. Right? And so the feature film version for the theatrical big screen experience. How do you feel about that firstly? And how do you think that would translate from the tiny little screen to freaking imax? We all make movies in computer these days. It doesn't matter what the platform is. Right?

57:42

Yeah. There's so much more polish that goes into this and we do like billion iterations of each shot and like constantly refining and all that. But, but, but like, like I have. I would say that this film, you know, being able to. And this is what I wanted from the beginning with this whole process. The thing that I hope to get out of this was being able to, you know, I fulfilled the niche of the found footage work online because that's what I could do by myself. But what I wanted to be able to do was be able to have stuff that got out of that and was more human centric and more getting into the character work that could be portrayed by actual human actors who, you know, like, were there for that. And, you know, this. In this film, we finally had the resources to attack the concept of the backrooms through that lens, which has never happened before. And I think we get to see, like, you know, a much. A far more personal and intimate version of this story, which sort of, like, I would say, comes second in the conversation of, like, people understand the backrooms, like, enough online at this point that it's like. And now this. It's like, this is the next. Or this is the slight advancement of the idea. And we're seeing a slightly more. I would say a slightly more thoughtful and elevated version of that that gets us to a place where we actually get to have a distinct relationship between individuals and the environment, rather than letting the relationship be largely between. Yes, there's a character always behind the camera, but more often than not, audiences come away with a feeling of like, I'm kind of the person behind. Like, they kind of relate to the person behind the camera in a way that is like, almost more like playing a game or watching a game playthrough or something, which is not something I deliberately cater to. I just have observed that something that happens, and now they can see the faces. It's so simple, but, like, actually being able to give the time to these characters in a more direct way and let their context in life in the world outside of their relationship with the backrooms. Giving that weight, I think, will go a long way.

58:15

I just feel that what you're saying here now translate to the big screen experience.

1:00:04

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, without a doubt. I mean, it's like it finally gives emotional context. Like, it allows everything that we build with these human beings, beings like then, is transposed when they interact with the backrooms and. And gives the back rooms of. Inherently, without the back rooms having to. It's the same location that stays pretty much unchanged. That whole element, the complex.

1:00:09

But now it's larger than life because

1:00:27

of the human element, because of how it's framed through the eyes of these people. Who. Who you can relate to. Yeah. Which you didn't have before, so. Yeah. Yeah, I'd say that's probably the. And there's also just some cool set pieces, so I. Excited to show that.

1:00:29

Some big set pieces. Yeah. That you can kind of like. I. I guess you know how you were saying you. You were talking about, like, just, you know, the fans or, you know, the people from the world, just seeing little details there. Right. Details in the world. So, like, I guess, you know, when it's blown up so huge big, you know, you can actually pick up little things that you may not actually experience or have noticed on your phone, on your computer. Right.

1:00:41

So my audience would notice anything and everything. But. Okay. But undoubtedly there is stuff, and it's great because you can't pause it in the theater. So for a select time, you'll. You'll maybe have to watch it a couple times. Find. To find everything that's in there, because there's a lot that's cool.

1:01:02

Well, Kate, this has been amazing, man.

1:01:17

It's been amazing.

1:01:19

Thank you, dude. Thank you for having a chat with me about this. I love the movie. I think you guys all did a fantastic job. The movie is great, and I really think you captured the spirit of what you did with the shorts. And here we have the feature film version. And so you must be excited to have people out there see this movie when it finally comes out.

1:01:20

I'm tremendously excited, dude. Like, thank you so much for just supporting this for the time you have. And it's like, we're talking. We're talking like. Like, you know, like how this happened. But. But you've been around supporting this since the beginning. Like, literally the first month that any of this was happening, we came into contact and it's. It's just been a great partnership. Okay. Okay.

1:01:40

This has been awesome.

1:01:58

Thank you, man.

1:01:59

Thank you, man.

1:01:59

This is lovely.

1:02:00