Blondie's "Rapture" with Fab 5 Freddy

Hahaha. Yes. Wow. It's so satisfying right here. Right here. Wow. That's a legit heavy metal solo right there. Oh my God. This is so special. The stems rapture. Oh, this is special. Don't cry. Oh, so careful. I hear you choking up. Hahaha. Lecturing today we're talking about a song that blends new wave, post-punk, disco, and a little newcomer named rap to create a sound emblematic of the downtown New York music scene of the early 1980s. That's right, T'Yallo. And in fact, it's the first song to feature rapping to top the Billboard charts. That's right. And we're back with the man who told us everybody's fly. We're talking one song, and that song is rapture by Blondie with our special guest, Fat Five Freddy. I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ, D'Yalla Riddle. And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, and musicologist, Luxury, AKA the guy who whispers interpolation. And this is one song. The show where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genre and music. And we're talking about a song that's not just a song, but a song that's not just a song, but a song that's not just a song, where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genres and tell you why they deserve one more listen. You will hear these songs like you've never heard them before, and you can watch one song on YouTube and Spotify while you're there. Please like and subscribe. And if you're looking for even more music facts, more conversations, and more us, these two guys, we've got a Patreon now. Go to patreon.com slash D'Yalla Luxury. That's patreon.com, D-I-L-L-O-L-U-X-X-U-R-Y. In other words, our names. Do all that spelling. As we mentioned, we have a very special guest with us here today, a pioneer in graffiti who brought that art form and many others to the mainstream, the co-producer and soundtrack co-creator and star of seminal hip hop film, Wild Style, the first host of Yo MTV Raps, and now author. With his memoir, Everybody's Fly, it's out now. You have to buy, you have to read it. Oh my gosh. Please welcome Fab Five, Freddie in the building. Hey, hey, hey, hey, thank you for having me. Woo! Honored to be here. Before we get to the stems luxury, you have an early version, with none of us missing since they say, you have an early version of the song that we found. Tell us more about it. Well, apparently the earliest version of Rapture was recorded slower, at a slower tempo, and while we don't have the demo- Like a Christmas theme or something like that? Oh God, that was- Well, so here's what happened to it. It was originally just recorded slower, and then they decided to speed it up, but then Christine went back to get the early version in order to make with this gentleman right here. But we're about to hear, friends, this is Yuletide Throwdown, based on an earlier slower version of Rapture and featuring Fab Five, Freddie. Here we go. Christmas Rabbit took a break at dawn, cause it's just about that time of year, but this is Christmas time. Can't no fear. We'd be shocking the house, so then they're rocking it well. Well, I mean, this blew our minds. I think we both said we had never heard that before. I never heard that before. We started to look at it. That came out on a Flexi disc in England in 1982, so it was released. So it was this popular magazine, I think it was called Flexi Pop. That's the one. That would feature a flexible record. You could get a free record. It would come with the magazine. In the magazine. It was bound in the magazine. It was flimsy little, colored thing. Well, you'd pull it out. I think it was a way you could tear and rip it out, and you'd have a soft, flexible record that really played. And Chris was like, yes, magazine is really popular. So it was one of those things when I did, I wish I would have put a little more effort into what I did, because it was just this flexi thing, a Christmas thing, but Flexi Pop, a Christmas thing that they reissued several years ago, and now it's... Now it's in the world forever. It's in the world forever. I think it's so dope. I think it's so dope. Who could have known that slow-motion and you could have known that slowing it down, then going to double time at the end of the chorus, I think it's super dope. But also, what blows me away is, we didn't do the lyrics together, so it's funny how I laid my lyrics down, and then Debbie comes and kind of references what I said and adds in. Oh, you didn't record that at the same time. No, it doesn't look like Santa Claus. Oh, that's what they did. Yeah, it was one of the sunglasses that apparently made him not look like Santa Claus. Yeah, yeah. I love this recording. And I like the fact that she went in after you. It's like when you hear about like... It's like when you hear about like T.I. recording, something, and Ludacris hears it and then he goes in and records it after. Uh-huh, yes. No, I like that. But it's amazing that people love it, and it pops up every holiday season, and people hit me up on, hey, I'm listening to that, I'm gonna go, oh my God, and they sent me images of the cover. You'll tie the throw-down. Why throw-down? Why wait till Christmas to throw-down? That's a good question to us. That's one of those big surprises that happened in life. Well, we love it. Lexury, what can you tell us about the recording of, let's say, the canonized version of Rapture? Let's talk about Rapture and how it got made, and then we're gonna break down the stems with the gentleman in the room who's gonna talk about this. What was happening behind the scenes with these people? It's really great to have you here for this. So the recording of Auto American, this is Blondie's fifth studio record, interestingly, two things. First of all, it was originally called Coca-Cola, but they had to change the title because they were worried about, you know, being sued. Seasons. Seasons. But the other thing I didn't realize until we were getting into the episode, it's recorded in Los Angeles. Yes. Rapture, this seminal New York hip-hop moment, everything we've been talking about, is recorded in Los Angeles. It was. It was recorded at United Western Studio on 6,000 Sunset Boulevard, right over here, now Oceanway Studio, and it's produced by Mike Chapman, who we're gonna talk a little bit about, unsung hero of the episode. Did you meet Mike? Do you have any Mike Chapman stories? I didn't meet Mike once or twice back then, and I just remember Chris raved about him. He was new, the previous guy, can't remember his name, at working with him. Richard Goddard. Okay, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that. He didn't eat any other records, but they were very pleased, and they were looking for people to improve the sound. They wanted to step up the quality of the sound. I remember Chris and them telling me they wanted to do music that more people could dance to. Wow. And then he goes off and makes this record. He joins the crew, actually, for their third record, and the record where they pop up, Parallel Lines, is the third record. And just a little bit more about Mike Chapman. He, Australian gentleman who meets Nicky Chin, we were just talking about Chapman and Chin. In the 70s, they kind of ruled the charts with the glam rock movement. They have 19 top 40 hits with the sweet, Susie Quattro, Mud, all these early 70s, like massive hit records, are coming out of the collective efforts of Chapman and Chin. And then famously, they do a song with this unknown band, or lesser known band called Racy, which is, turns into a cover by Tony Basil called Mickey. Wow. So, and that recently is another third generation hit as Apatow with Bruno Mars. And Rose. And Rose. So that's all Mike Chapman. And that brings him into the blondies world. And yeah, he produces Parallel Lines, Eat to the Beat, their fourth record. And that's where they have their hits. This is Heart of Glass era. It's One Way or Another. It's Hanging on the Telephone. Oh, boy. And that brings us to where we are today in 1980 to record Auto American. In Los Angeles of all places. Amazing. All right, let's get into the stems. Luxury, let's start with the drums. Let's start with Clem, Boren Clements, Anthony Burke. Actually, Boren Clements, Anthony Bozewski. Change his name to Clem Burke, incredible drummer. Good job, Glen. Let's listen and then we'll talk a little bit about what we're hearing in this beat. So he's just laying it down his four to the floor. But what happens here, there's two things. First of all, note this motif. It's just a crash on the one and the three. He does that along with the lyrics to kind of emphasize several times in the song, what's being sung in what we're going to refer to as like the pre-chorus or the bridge section. So that's a motif that becomes kind of a, kind of a like a riff that you like. You don't hum it because it's not a melody, but it's memorable and it's very iconic to the song. But the other one I want to point out is this one in the hi-hats. And this is really important where he starts dropping 16th notes. I'll play it and then we'll talk about it. Right there. If you think about it, that's very similar to the rapping cadence. DJ spinning, I said, my, my, flashes me. Once Blondie comes in, once Debbie comes in and starts rapping, a lot of the same kind of similar dropping of a 16th note starts to happen, mapping to that. And Clem, I was looking into like what he might have been inspired by. He said he was influenced by David Bowie's station to station album. And as soon as I saw that quote, I think I knew exactly what it was. Check this out. This is Dennis Davis drumming on David Bowie's. Dennis Davis. Golden years from 1975. See if you hear a connection in how the hi-hats are being played. So he's playing 16th notes, but there's an emphasis. It's sponking right there. It makes it almost more break-thee. Yeah. So there's that dropped 16th note that is another motif and becomes kind of a distinctive pattern. Because everything else he's doing is a disco beat. It's just forwarded the floor and the kick and the snare. So this is where he throws a little sauce in there, a little Clem Burke sauce. And then I'll just play for you one more of these crash motifs and I'll throw in the vocals so you can kind of hear what he's doing. So you can hear the drums and the vocals kind of have this rapport. Yes. They're kind of communicating with each other. Yes, yes. A rap, a rap whore. If you will. A rap, a rap whore. Let's move on to the bass. What's going on with the bass in the song? Well, this is Nigel Harrison on bass. British member of the band. Yes. Were you friends with Nigel? I knew all the band members at that time. I wasn't friendly with him. Clem Burke, Nigel Harrison, Jimmy Destry. These guys were good. That was blondie. Man, I'm so... The FOMO is just going to be like all over the room today. Interesting. Well, let's listen to... Basically, he's playing a two-bar lube the entire time, except for this pre or bridge section. So we'll play you the lube. Keep in mind, it's a six and a half minute song. So he's laying this down in a pre-looping era. Wow. Or at least they didn't for this record to my understanding lube. He's just performing this sick bass line the whole time. Let's listen. There's something about it that's so perfect. It's two bars. I have done my whole musical career. I've been looking for the perfect lube. I just love it when there's two bars that is just infinitely gratifying like that. And I think what's happening is a little bit there's a question mark on the first half. Because that lands on the minor third. And the second half is the response because that... And you're back to the roots. And then you're ready for the question and then the answer and the question and the answer. So it's this really gorgeous two bar cycle for the entire time. Wow. It has that same sort of like I'm walking cadence that so many of the classic era disco songs have. I think that's probably what makes them remind all of us of like New York and just walking. I mean like that opening scene is in favor. Yeah, he's walking. It's just it feels like walking music. I don't know. The cadence of a brusque New York manhattan. That's very true. I could see that. As you say it, I see I see them walking now. They're walking. You see the trash cans not getting picked up. You see the graffiti on the walls. Yes, yes. Well, let's move on to the guitar and this is there's so much here we want to unpack. So there's definitely three at least guitar parts in the song. And I'm pretty sure it's Chris Stein and Frank Infante, the two guitar players. But I think Mike Chapman, the producer also might be playing a role. Let's listen and break it down and I'll tell you why I think that. So here's one of the at least three guitar parts, the whole note chords that the song begins with. And it sounds like a keyboard, but I thought that was a totally different instrument. It might be two guitars actually harmonized. I'm not exactly sure, but it's gorgeous. Okay, so it should be said at this point as wonderful as that is. There is a quote from Mike Chapman, producer Mike Chapman, who said that they were at the band Blondie were quote musically the worst band I ever worked with. So I'm not trying to throw shade here, but this is here. It must be said that part of why we think Mike Chapman is playing a role in the song. First of all, he said that they were quote the blondies were tough in the studio real tough. None of them liked each other except Chris and Debbie. And there was so much animosity. They didn't give a fuck about anything. They just wanted to have fun. Didn't want to work too hard getting it. The only great musician among them was Frankie and fancy the guitar player, the third guitar player in this song. We're about to hear his part. He's an amazing guitarist. The rest of them are all over the bloody place. In defense of Blondie. Yeah, never thought I had to say that, but in defense of Blondie, you know, in the CBGB Max's Kansas City days, like I feel like that was part of the punk aesthetic was that you weren't supposed to be too good at these instruments, right? I mean, I wonder how much in retrospect we kind of ascribe to that. I think they were trying. Oh, no, I think there's effort. And by the way, they have the track record. When back when I thought I wanted to be in a band, I was like, I'd like to be in a band with like Blondie. I literally thought about Blondie because I thought that their eclectic nature from tight as high to heart of glass, rapture to, you know, call me one way or another. Like I was like, they do so many different types of music. Incredible songwriters. I'm sure to see them live. I would. I mean, I'd kill to go back and see them at CBGB in 75, 76. But it's funny when you read these Mike Chapman quotes, these are all from interviews on Sound on Sound magazine. And then you go back and read some of what Blondie says about him. It's like, whoa, what did they say about him? Well, Debbie says quote, Mike is a real hot chili pepper, energetic and enthusiastic. He would strive for the technically impeccable take. So we would do take after take. And when you read that in a magazine, it's just sort of black and white words. And I'm kind of the like Mike Chapman, you know, what he's been saying about them. Sounds like he's a perfectionist and they're the opposite of that. And I like, I like some grimy DIY. It ain't perfect, but let's go home. I like some of that. But they work together as well. But they work together on these hit records over and over again. So clearly that dynamic worked. Blondie understood that they needed a little bit of that crack in the whip in the studio. Interesting. I think you were in a group called Great ever so briefly. John Michelle Boschia. Yeah. Who was the third member? It was Michael Hohman. There were several other members. From the canal zone days. Correct. Pick up the book. This will all make sense. But this is artists being artists and sometimes not being the best musicians on their instrument, but trying out ideas. A big part of the punk thing was like, you didn't need to know how to play your instrument. And that was some of the things when I'd read some of these bands saying that made me think I could have a conversation with these people about graffiti as art. And this new kind of rap music, rapping over the beats. I think so much. So that was... I mean, there's a fact that DJs were touching the vinyl. You weren't supposed to touch vinyl. You were not supposed to touch your fingers anywhere near the vinyl. Your mom or your dad would just real mess. No, people, you would get seriously disciplined for that. But that was, one again, a big innovation that I think flashed help with. Need to really put your hands on a record. And it's interesting though, because in early hip hop and at early hip hop parties, the feel that those records had, it was a different energy. It added sort of a patina to the music. And when hip hop began to really get refined, the idea of sampling and Mollie Maher and those guys, hearing what we refer to as the popcorn on the records was like a key ingredient because when Sugarhill put out its first records, they would just have bands. Play note for note, what was the popular thing that the DJs were playing. And it would be a little too clean. It didn't have that grit, that grime. And people like the Bomb Squad later and Mollie Maher initially knew that was an ingredient. DJ Premier. I mean, I feel like he leaves the dirt on the record. That is a connection too to the punk rock thing, because you want to have the aesthetic of the music. The authenticity of it is baked into how it is recorded. And ideally, it's not recorded super well. It's not pristine and high-five. You want to hear the chops, you want to hear the mistakes, the flubs, the not every note's being hit. That's endemic. It's part of both hip hop and punk rock. They both share that. That's true. And also in hip hop's pursuit, particularly in the 90s of those original records that were sampled, also what they studied and learned about with the recording techniques, as opposed to a mic on every single instrument, multiple mics on the drums. They weren't making a Steely Dan record. They were trying to go for something more correct. But the way I understand a lot of those 60s soul records, it'd be one or two mics. In the room, yeah. Thank you. For the whole band. So when people were like, how do we get this? How do we recreate when the Dap King? I read that they were learning. Sharon Jones. They began a pursuit of the early mics and amps with tunes. They bought all that same gear that was used to the day. All the gear that was used to really get. The black-white thing to do. Yeah. This is what Mark Ronson and the Dap Kings all did for the Amy Winehouse record. The capture that 60s authentic feel, because the authenticity is in the songwriting, it's in the vocal, but it's also in the recording. All of those kind of signifiers equal, this is real. This is authentic. Yes. And to get the quality of so much of that great music that we love, which hip hop particularly wanted to sample and extend, it was people began to understand how that process went down, which I think was fascinating, which definitely connects to the punk aesthetic, because punk essentially was rebelling against the way established rock had gotten to. Rock rock and the. Yeah. It was all about itself and they were getting too slick and too much, too many microphones in the studio on the drums and all that. They were like, let's, let's, let's. Seven minute rock songs, you know. It was like too much, too many long solos. Yeah. So they dialed back on a lot of that. I think that was, Blondie was blending in a bit of that, hence the confrontations with Chapman not getting that is apparently. The irony of that is that in this punk rock hip hop disco song, which we're in the middle of, which is inventing this blend in real time, we do have this crazy whaling guitar solo by Frank and Fancy. Yeah. Let's listen to it. You almost forget that it's there until you're listening. Yes, yes. And you're like, this is a Van Halen song? What's going on here? Oh, shit. Frank and Fancy, according to Mike Chapman, the most talented member musically speaking. He's only, he's guitars. Yes. It's a satisfying right here, right here. Wow. So dope. Heavy metal solo right there. Oh my God. This is so special. The stems, rapture. Oh, this is special. It's such a joy. Don't cry. Oh, so okay. I won't. I hate choking up. Listen, let's double back for a second to talk about how that second section that I've alluded to a few times. The song is a groove, but it's broken up by this moment where it goes to this other place, right? Where the crash goes, where we just heard the second half of that solo. I've been calling it the bridge or the pre-chorus. What's happening that's interesting, it kind of harkens back to two previous episodes of the show. We have a Phrygian moment. Go back to our Nas episode with a flat two, and I'll play that for you now, and I'll explain what that means. Here are the chords, and I'll walk you through what you're hearing. So the song is in a minor, and then when we get to the stepping lightly, that part, we go into, we go to a flat two. This is our Phrygian moment. It's strange. It'll be even stranger when we get to the vocals. That's a clever little part they added to break up just the groove. We go up a half step, and that's why in that moment it goes, it's a little bit like, whoa, it's a little interesting and unusual sounding. It's funny, when you just played those two parts together, I feel like I'm on a Hawaiian vacation. You really need the rest of the rhythm section to make it feel like a dirty disco song. Just those chords on their own, it's a half step up from E minor to the F, so it's a flat second, and that's our Phrygian moment. Again, go back to our Nas episode for a deeper dive into what that means, but that's part of what's happening in this song to kind of give it a little more flavor in that moment. I want to hear the two-point bells. I think that I really enjoy the bells on this. Okay, just a heads up. In this part of the stems, there's a bunch of stuff that's baked together, so we're going to hear Jimmy Destry literally playing actual tubular bells that were in the studio, but you're going to hear it mixed together with some percussion and as we go along some guitar and some other things. So here are the tubular bells. Wow. These are stand-up bells, like giant bells, like in an orchestra. Such a big part of the record. I believe Jimmy Destry's only contribution to this song. But what a great contribution. There he is. When we were going back and listening to the- Such a great sound. When we were listening to this week, I was reminded of always something there to remind me, which is a 80s classic. There's something about those strong bells. Yeah. Those tubular bells. Yes, I love hearing that just isolated like that. That's a key part of the record. It's so clean. Very clean. Be clean. Very Christmassy. Yeah, Christmassy, you're right. Maybe that's where the Yuletide idea came from. Yes. The dude at Yuletide. Absolutely. Grow down. Yes. By the way, who's doing the- It sounds like somebody's padding on their leg or something. What was that? There's claps, which I mean, I read an interview where Clemberg took credit for having the idea to do the clapping rhythm. But it sounds like a bunch of people doing it. It might have been the whole band. Okay. Let's listen to that though. That, that, that, that. How? That, that, that, that, that. How about that? Yeah, like hand bone. It sounds like the hand bone that the girls would play on the street. It kind of fits because like whether you're doing the double dutch or like the hand bone, like that's the kind of street scene that just makes its way into the song. Ah, and I love that. This is so special. I wonder who's doing that in the studio. I wonder too. Somebody's really talented. There's even more of like Latin percussion coming up here in this next section, which is very New York sounding. That's the Latin percussion sound. Whistles. The whistles. Timbales. Love it. Oh yeah. I'm going to offer up, I think that those bells are like a defining quality of the song, but the song would also just not sound quite as New York without the saxophone. The saxophone is such like a, let's talk about the saxophone. Late 70s, early 80s. It reminds me of the, wasn't it exited New York's, all right. If you like saxophones, like the 80s fell back in love with the saxophone in like a major way. And it's so New York too. It's so New York. Yeah, the guy in the subway playing a saxophone, like that guy's on it. With a leg out the window on a hot New York night with a cigarette. That image. Very true. You've got him, you've got the girls doing hand bone, you've got the whistles from like Spanish Harlem. It's a very New York song. Made in LA. Made in LA. Made in LA. Let's not forget. Here's another recurring character on one song. The saxes are played by our good friend. We don't actually know him, but we talk about him a lot. That's Tom Scott, who we've mentioned on many episodes. Tom Scott. He's on a lot of records. He's on a lot of records. He was on Steely Dan on that episode playing the Lyricon. He's also playing the Lyricon on Billie Jean by Michael Jackson. Captain and Toneal do that to me one more time. He was good in work. And he's playing the sax solo on Do You Think I'm Sexy by Rod Stewart. And for the purposes of hip hop, he has a song called Today, which famously gets sampled into They Remain This Over You. He rocks. Yes. Yes, and possibly the greatest jazz. Oh, yes. Sample, if you want to call it jazz, possibly the greatest sample of the 90s. Sort of set the 90s off in the music world. Once a year we give this gentleman his flowers on the show. In this episode's No Exception, he's playing three different lines that it's him overdubbing himself. Wow. So he's playing three sax parts. That's what you're hearing in the mix. It's two. This is so great to hear all this. Two in unison and one in a row. This is like the line of notes on steroids. Please continue. We do not take steroids. Absolutely. So he's playing two tenor sax lines in unison. So one note, the same note twice. And then he's playing a harmony. There's a third sax, which is playing a fourth underneath it. So there's a harmonization underneath the lead line. So I'll play that for you in the mix. The song would not be the song without Tom Scott. It's swinging. It's got a little behind the beat. Yes. Behind the beat. Oh my goodness. This is so great. Love this so much. He's breaking rapture all the way down to the smallest compound. All right. Well, listen, we're going to take a quick break. But when we get back, we'll hear the very first rap verse to top the Billboard charts. And we'll hear how Fat Five Freddy's friendship with Blondie brought that band to the Bronx and in turn brought rap into the mainstream. Stick around. We'll break it down. Oh. Kitty. A great story like Monsters Inc. stays with you forever. And Disney Plus is where you'll find your next great story from the return of the award-winning hit series, Rivals. Welcome to the naughtiest show on television. To the unmissable crime drama, High Potential. Gotta dead body. Gotta go. A lifetime of great stories awaits. This spring on Disney Plus, 18 Plus. Subscription required. T's and C's apply. All right. Welcome back to one song. Well, it wouldn't be the rapture without a rap. But before we get to the rap, let's talk about the singing. I will admit that in the many times I've heard this song, I don't think I knew much more than rapture. Like her delivery is sort of whimsical. It's sort of like I saw one place it was described as rapturous. Like sort of intentionally sort of like more flowy than like punching out the words. Well, really, that kind of floaty. It's like a little druggie. It's like slow. There's not a lot of words. There are very few words and they're drawn out. If you listen that way, which is a nice contrast to the rap sections. And then it gets kind of the cadence picks up. Totally. But when she just said, yeah, I think I was singing like, tell us to tell. I had no idea she was singing toe, to toe. Let's hear a little bit of Miss Debbie Harry's isolated vocals. Yeah. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. I mean, that vocal might be underrated. Man, listen, what a great voice. I love it so much. I mean, that's not easy to do. When you hear Debbie Harry's isolated vocals, what does it make you think about? No, since you know the person who sang it. Well, you know, she's a real consummate artist. And you know, she not long ago, she was working with a jazz band called the Jazz Passengers. And was recording. And you could hear that jazz love or the way she just used her vocal in a jazzy kind of way. Because she has like a smoky kind of jazzy voice when you think about it. Yes. Very smoky. She uses a total instrument. Really amazing just to hear it isolated like that. This is so dope. I love it. So one thing I want to point out in the bridge melody. So that's the Phrygian part where we go up to being lightly that little moment, which I broke down a moment ago in the music, has this sort of, you know, jazzy moment to it. In particular, I was noticing how rapture, that half step down, gives us another allusion to another episode. Go back to our paint a black episode. It's the same harmonic minor scale, which evokes a kind of easternness to it. Because you would normally have that be, normally it were a quote unquote regular minor scale. She was saying rapture, but she's only going a half step rapture. And that really takes us kind of out of the Americas. And kind of like maybe even out of the 20th century. That one half note choice does a lot of work emotionally and sonically, I think, to our associations with what scale she's chosen. I don't know that she's done this consciously. I have a feeling a lot of what she does is spontaneous and artistically improvisational and just the muse. But that is the effect part of what the effect that I think it has on the listener. Very cool. Yeah. I feel like it's here where I can get what you're saying. I'll play that one part against the court so you can really hear it. Lightly hanging each night in rapture. She's bending her voice almost like a guitar player bending the note. It just has so much expression to it. It's rapture. Yes, yes. It's almost like sinister, like to use the word you used for the music. I like that. I like the idea of sinister. Yes, yes, yes. I think it's ironic that she sings people hypnotize and she sounds hypnotized. And when she says hypnotize, it hypnotizes the listener. Oh, yeah, definitely. He's saying those words. I can't look away. Yeah. So by the way, the instrumental track, when they were done, they just had an instrumental track with singing. It wasn't a rap yet. And Chapman says that when he asked Debbie what she envisioned for the rest of the song, because there was this huge four-minute-long gap, she stopped singing in the second verse after like two minutes. And then there's nothing until the very end. That was all they had when they recorded the song originally. So Mike Chapman says when I asked her what she envisioned for the remaining two thirds, she said, a rap. I had no idea what she was talking about. Rap was new then. Debbie played me a few references. I said, great, it's crunch time. Go out there and rap. She said, well, and she said, well, I have to write it first. So they hadn't even written anything yet. So she and Chris went off as she says with a pen and pad, and in 10 minutes they were done. Debbie Harry says there weren't any rules to writing a rap at that point. So I just wanted to capture the feeling we experienced in the Bronx. So all the lyrics about the Bronx experience, do you want to talk about that? So, yes. So I'm in the mix with these people, a TV party crew. I'm hanging with them. I'm telling them about this scene, how I feel it's comparable to the new wave and the punk scene. And everything felt like it was some underground stuff that was cool and edgy. And so it came to a point where I had met, in fact, when I first meet Grandmaster Flash, I meet the guy who was their manager. It was an ex-cop. His name was Ray Chandler. It was about six foot six, quite formidable guy. And I met him. And at first I'm telling him who I am, and he thinks it's a bunch of shit. But then when I show him some magazines and some write-ups that reference what I'm trying to do and he's like, okay, what's up? So I go, listen, I want to bring these, my friends up to the Bronx to experience this. I want to something that's safe and make sure everybody is going to be cool and whatever. So there's a gig he's promoting at the, well, you know, he's managing Flash and Flash promoter at a PAL. That's a police, athletic league, kind of like a community gathering place in communities. And there was one in the Bronx on 183rd and Webster. And there's a lineup of different groups performing like Cold Crush and the Mercedes ladies performing in a fantastic romantic vibe. And I get a whole group of Chris, Debbie, some other people from the TV party, cool Glenn O'Brien. How'd you get up there to take the trainer? No, we took some cabs up and we took an OJ back. We actually took two OJs, which was sort of like Uber in the hood. Yeah, no, that's... Decent cars. But what made OJ car service really cool was a lot of the drivers had tapes from the live parties. And a lot of the clientele were young folks or people in street corner pharmaceuticals that had the money to book a car for an extended period of time. A lot of the early raps from these parties, guys with reference getting into an OJ. And you know, I have an OJ... I never knew what that meant. Yeah, it was an OJ on hold meant you was able to have it for one or two hours or more. Just waiting for you. Yeah, waiting for you. That was like... You were like... You made it. That was incredible. That was like rolling around with a limo driver or something. It was a big deal. But that was the thing. So when we left, they ordered us a couple of OJs. We went downtown and everybody was like... So you were up there in the Bronx with Chris and Debbie and they were witnessing their first live rap experience. Yeah, it was incredible. And when we were walking in, there was a bunch of young kids in the lobby. And this wasn't a scene where any white folks ever went. So they were like, yo! The Beatles are here. They thought... Well, the popular dance on the hip hop scene at the time was a dance which called the Patty Duke, which was an older TV show that would be in reruns on local channels. And I guess in the opening of the show, Patty would do this kind of go-go dance to some 60s stuff. And kids was like, yo! They saw Debbie. It's like, it's Patty Duke. People laugh. And then the movie... They've seen five white people in their whole life. The movie, The Jerk, had recently been out. And the Glenn O'Brien, that's the... He's the jerk. Look, the jerk. With the white hair. Patty Duke and the Jerk. Patty Duke and the Jerk. They were just cracking up and snapping. You know, the white people looking at... Patty Duke and shit. So you can hear people chuckle and then laugh it. Hollywood is empty tonight. They're all in the Bronx. You know? It was incredible. That's hilarious. But I remember when I saw Debbie a few days later and we hooked up, she was like, oh my God. The Mercedes ladies had on these cool outfits and these little Western hats. And Debbie was like, man, those girls were great. You know, the Mercedes ladies, what they had on. So I was like, oh wow. They were picking up on stuff. They were picking up on it. And felt the energy, felt the groove, you know? And went out to work with Mike Chapman in LA, not long after. It's such a credit to Debbie and Chris that they were... As people, they were open-minded. They were pulling in their influences. They were true New Yorkers, like at the crux of all of it. They were, man. Understanding that this is this hodgepodge, cultural stew. All of it is beautiful and good and interesting. And let's mix it up in our music. That's so true. Let's mix it up in our case. The most prominent, biggest selling band out of that whole scene. And they so connected with what I was trying to do. And they worked with a lot of other people on Chris's label, Animal Records. He worked with a lot of really underground other acts like Walter Steading, who was a part of the TV party, really just interesting. And the first people to buy paintings for me in New York, as well as Jean-Michel. They bought work and hired us numerous times. It was another video, a song that I thought could have been a huge hit called The Hardest Part. And they rented a giant, seamless room. And me, Lee and Jean-Michel Baskia spray painted this whole room. I drew some soup cans and Lee did pieces. And it was a room where Debbie actually put on a black wig. And she had like a wild, crazy, cut-up, Barbarella looking kind of outfit and performed amidst all this graffiti in this giant... The Hardest Part. The Hardest Part, which I felt could have been just as big as Rapture. But Rapture was first, I thought they could have did it, but they'd never released it as a single. Man, I just wish I could have been friends with y'all back then. That would have been so much frickin' fun to just hang out. Yes, it was. It was incredible. Now we gotta talk about the rap in Rapture. I'm gonna give credit to my co-host luxury. He was the person who pointed this out because this is the first hip-hop song to go number one on the charts. And the first words wrapped are your name. Congratulations. You are the first part of hip-hop history for that reason alone and for several other major reasons. You are the first hit rap lyric. Exactly. Let's hear the rap. How do you stop this, man? I know, it's so hard to stop. It's so crazy. I have questions, okay? That was fun. First of all, we do want to confirm because there's been debate online about the Flash. I think now we are agreed that Flash is Grandmaster Flash. Oh, without question. No, but there were people online who was like, oh no, Flash was a downtown drug dealer who they knew. And if you ordered from him, he would show up fast. Wow. Why do you guys don't shoot the messenger? That's crazy. I never heard that one. You never heard that? It was out there. The other thing that's under great debate is the Francois line. Francois-Sépas-Flaché-No-Doux. Okay. It's not quite French. It's a little bit French. It means Francois-Sépas, kind of like a guy called Francois, isn't great. You know, it's a little bit implying that. Okay. But then the rest of it's not quite, doesn't really mean anything. Okay. I always took it as sort of like French gibberish to sort of sound like sort of fancy and sort of like an early 80s way. Okay. But there are people online who say no, she was talking about Francois-K. Francois-Covorokian. Francois-Covorokian saying that his type of DJing, which was sort of a style of disco DJing, was not that great. We like Flash. So it's like Flash is cool. Francois-Sépas. Wow. Which, you know, can we say definitively now that we know that she's not talking about Francois-K. I mean, I would say it's definitely about Grandmaster Flash. That's why he was fast. As I would be explaining what was going on on the early rap slash hip hop scene, him Flash being a DJ and being very fast at it, hence the name Flash. Makes so much sense. It's super significant. And these were things that they kind of like just put into this record, which was an echoing of things that I shared along with the everybody's fly on the early hip hop scene with fly guys and fly girls. Absolutely. That was slang of the scene at that time. And that's what I told them. So it really verbatim, you know, quoting me if you will. Here's what Fab told me. You, by the way, speaking of which. I think we've also said that like to our knowledge, nobody was taking shots at Francois-K. So the first hip hop number one is not also the first diss record. So we're not saying that. Do you think if they had recorded in New York that you would have jumped on the track? No, because I wasn't. Listen, the amazing thing, and I'll definitely share with you what happened was they said they went away. They went away. They were gone for a couple of months making this record. It came back. I've been hanging out with them quite regularly, having these sessions, them helping me advise on things that I wanted to do. I'm trying to emerge as an artist, as a cultural shaker and whatever, whatever. And so they basically said, oh, come by the house. We've got some records we want to share with you. Some of the new stuff we've done. But they play me a couple of songs from the new auto American album and I'm digging it. Then Chris says, okay, here's something different. Put some Rapture. They're really watching me intently. Yeah, they want your approval, probably. Well, Debbie starts off singing. I love it. And then the intro to the song and then she starts rapping. And I am shocked. I'm also flattered and kind of humbled because what I immediately think is they were just goofing around in the studio and did this track as like a little playful throwaway just to show me that they really got it. Because Chris didn't prep me like, we're going to try this rapping thing. I'm going to make sure you think this will pass, muster, whatever, whatever. But I listened to that and I was just blown away that I thought that just playfully they had did this as a throwaway, but just to show me that they really got all this up. Because I hear my name. I hear, I'm telling them about Flash. He's the fastest and this is cool. And then she references, have your party on TV. That's a reference to TV party and stuff like that. So I'm like, oh, that's so cool, so sweet. And that's how I left it. That's what I literally thought was the case until two months later. I'm in Paris for the first time after second art exhibit in Milan. I'm hanging out with Chris and Tina from the Talking Heads that have a new group that they've recently launched called the TomTom Club. We leave a party together with David Byrne and the B-52s. We're all hanging out in Paris at the same time. We're on our way to get on by TV. You definitely don't want to be there. Jesus, all this so much FOMO. Come on. It's crazy. And we're in a cab and I'm in the cab and we're heading to La Coupole or whatever to eat. And this song comes on in this guy's cab. Wow. This is fucking cab driver. Get a copy of this song. Because this is the thing I thought they did just as a goof. And Chris Franz says, no, Freddie, that's the new Blondie single. That's the new single. I'm like, huh? That's how I learned that this is a real record. And a minute later, they went on to do wordy rapping hood themselves with rapping in it. Sure did. Right? Words in papers, words in books, words on TV, words from books, words of comfort, words to make the fighting cease, words to tell you what to do. They sure did wordy rapping, which is really dope. Those records that they put out. That first Tom Tom cup, it's an all time. It's insane. It's insane. Really well done. Genius of Love is one of my top three songs of all time I would say. Wow. I love that too. They hit it right. So I was like, oh wow, you do this. They were beginning to pop and they were a couple with part of the talk, head span, the rhythm section, whatever. And that was just incredible. And that's when how I realized this is a real record. It was shocking and surprising. And then I began to go like, wow, how's this going to work? Because the rap is great, but it's a little kind of weird. It's different. It's a little slightly goofy, if you will. It's not, you know, but remarkably it goes on to be number one. And set the table for a lot of what would soon come. Absolutely. Because nobody knew this was a whole movement. There was a scene. People had heard the first couple of rap records that came out, including Rappers of Light. Unless you knew, people thought this was some kind of one, two off, three off, kind of a photo fad. Total fad. Total fad. What you're underscoring too is like, what I'm thinking about is how like it really ought to have been a novelty record. It should have been a Dr. Demento record. Thank you. But something about it was a little bit richer than that, like a little deeper. And it's lasted, stood the test of time. It's 45 years old. That's incredibly true. And what helped a great deal is the gentleman I talked about earlier played the hell out of it, Frankie Crocker on WBLS, who was the arbiter. That Gator cred. Another unsung hero for this episode. No doubt. Another unsung hero, a big influence on me and my musical taste. And boom, that helped a lot. And the record connected with people across the spectrum. It wouldn't be too, some years later when I was hosting URM TV Raps and the initial press on who the hell I was began to hit. This is the guy that Debbie Mettles on Raps showed. So it's like a cultural ambassador. Kind of a cultural ambassador. But it was sort of like an Easter egg or a piece of the puzzle that finally fit. Now it precedes you wherever you go on planet Earth, Fab Five Freddy. Everybody knows that lyric. But people would butcher, you know how it is with music, and I'm sure you can relate, where you're singing along with a record and you're saying the wrong shit. Absolutely. But you don't care. You're just singing. This is my joint. People would butcher. It would be Fly, Fly, Freddy and Vi Vi, Freddy and... That's the mom dream. You know, it would be like, dude, it'd be like, oh, I can get my name all butchers. It's like it started at Sacros Siliac. Oh my God. That crazy word. Yes, yes. In the audio version of my book, Everybody's Fly, I talked to several people. I talked to several people that are key in my story and in the storytelling. And I got to do that with Chris and Debbie from Blondie. So this is, you hear this in the audio book. And I never knew at one point when we were talking and I said, well, you know, tell me how the whole Rapture song came together. They were laying in bed and Chris just said, hey Debbie, let's make a rap song and call it Rapture. Literally a dad joke, literally a pun. Literally. And Debbie says, that's a great idea. And Chris goes on to writing most of the lyrics, which surprised me because Debbie sells the song. I never checked the credits as I'm sure you guys do get all the details, but I just figured that but then it made sense because it would be Chris that I would spend most of the time hanging with, giving him all these nuances about what's going on on the rap scene, soon to be the hip hop scene. It's funny that you bring that up because I will say that growing up, you know, in a different era of hip hop, I assume this was like a freestyle. You know what I mean? Like, so the idea, but you know, once you figure out where its placement is in Raps development, you're like, no, someone definitely wrote this out. You break up the part about Mars, which we were going to hear some more from. You had a verse about Mars that you think one of my raps that I had was I was born and raised on the planet Mars where I used to chill and rock with the stars. So one day I got bored and decided to split. I came to Earth on a rocket ship, crash landed in this park. It was a full moon out and very dark. Somebody was rapping upon the mic and then I got up on the mic and I rocked all right and blah, blah, blah, blah. So that was just a little example. Like, hey, here's what a rap sounds like. This is my little rap. You know, man from Mars. It might have had a little influence on what Debbie and Chris brought to this rap song. Maybe because they were friends with the Earth. Yeah. Yeah. And it comes right down and it lands on the ground and out comes a man from Mars and you try to run but he's got a gun and he shoots you dead and he eats your head. And then you're in the man from Mars. But also, definitely I think it was a bit of an inspiration, but Chris was also into sci-fi, into B-movie, sci-fi, Planet Mars, you know, Plan 9 from Outer Space and stuff like that. So it was just a nice perfect gumbo, if you will. It was a nice mix of cool stuff in a unique way as opposed to trying to be like a New York rapper. They put their own little personality and flavor into it. And as Jimmy said, this is before rap got so codified that like, no, that's a Nas verse or that's a Jay-Z verse. Like, a lot of what went into rappers delight, for example, were little bits of pieces of raps from other rappers from before the sugar relief. A huge part of it, the whole verse of Big Back Hank is for Badam Grandmaster Kaz's lyrics. That's why he's calling out his name. His name. Right. Check it out. I'm the C-A-S-N, the O-V-A-N, the rest is F-L-Y. You see I go by the code of the doctor of the mix. Yeah. And I'm the C-A-S-N, when he says, you know, I'm the C-A-S, he spells out Kaz and over the fly. That was Grandmaster Kaz's, you know, other rap name that he wrote. I can't spell about that. When he heard that song, do the numbers in a 10. You know, Kaz has dealt with that, I think, in such an incredible way. And he's got a whole rap about that situation, which is epic and incredible. I think he's been really classy about it. It's a very unfortunate situation that he wasn't compensated. I know you guys get into the splits and all that. Which is super significant. But unfortunately, that was, I think, a part of Sugar Hill's legacy. As they unfortunately didn't, they weren't as equitable as they should have been with their acts. I think they would have moved better. They could have been the biggest that ever did it. Because everybody would have fled to them, would have ran to them to put all the rappers that would come if they would have did good business. Everybody would have essentially wanted to be their ghostwriter because they had this big white arm at that time. Yeah, it's another little story that I just wanted to share briefly. I don't want to do it too soon. But Debbie Harry Blondie was pretty much a Debbie Harry solo thing. He got to host Saturday Night Live. And at that time, they got to pick who the support band would be, if you will. And at this time, we'd been friends a good while. I've explained a lot of the nuances and what was going on. But still, there was no major spotlight on this rap thing, on this early hip hop thing. And they said, Freddie, we want to bring one of these groups on that you've been telling us about. And I was like, wow. I said, well, man, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five are incredible. The Cold Crush are amazing. The Fantastic Romantic Five, the Fantastic Freaks. But I said, there's one group with four males and a girl out front, the funky four plus one. And the girl is Shah Rock. And she's like, oh, wow. And so that became the first group to perform on national television. First rap. Yeah. You're behind the scenes orchestrating this entire thing, aren't you? That's the Fab Five, Freddie. I'm not. You're modest, but that's what's happening. I played my position absolutely. But that was my intent. And I was able to circumvent a lot of BS by connecting with people on that new wave scene that saw what was coming believed in it. Got this, these ideas that I shared, like the rebellious nature, but it was getting none of the incredible press that the sounds and melody maker and the village voice were all reporting on this incredible stuff. So they got that and wanted to help make that happen. And they were able to get a hit out of it while also sharing that love and shouting me out and talking about Flash. And so when they made the music video, I was like, listen, let's get Flash to play himself. So they had a turntable and a mixer. I said, Flash, we're going to be here. And music videos were still a kind of a new thing. But I said, Flash, these guys have shouted you out. I'm tight with them. Boom, boom, boom. Flash never shows up. So Jean Michelle Basquiat, we were all hanging out at that time. And I said, and Jean was there as in, you know, to take part, all of the people walking around the video, most of them were our friends. I said, I'll show Jean how to do it. And he could stand in for Flash. So nobody had seen this DJ thing yet, really. But I'm like, Jean, it's simple. You just hold a mixer and do this and put your hand on the turntable and just gesture like this a little bit. And so he was like, OK, cool. But when the camera's rolling and Debbie walks right up, that's Jean Michelle Basquiat standing there with the little pork pie hat on. And she goes to deliver the first line. But Jean forgets to do what I showed her. He's just kind of standing there. I'm just going to stand here and have a little grin on my face. And it always makes it so funny because I'm like, Jean, come on, you supposed to like, but he was like, I'm not trying to play myself. No, of course not. I don't know what this is. I ain't seen Flash or none of these DJs cut, scratch, and mix yet. But it all worked out. Not as everybody has. Every time. The number of times the commercial had a dog with headphones on going like this. Everybody knows what she's doing. Exactly. But it was undiscovered. That is such an iconic rap video. What else can you tell us about that day? Can I ask a dumb question? It looks almost like it was shot on the streets of New York, but that's a set, right? It's a set. It's a sound stage, a modest sound stage. But they are coming out of Pravda, that bar, right? On Lafayette Street. Yeah. Whoa. I read an interview where he, because I recognized it and it sure, because I used to live two blocks away. Okay. Yeah, that was Rudolph from Dance of Terriers. The puck building, right? You know, the puck building? Yes, I know it well. Right underneath it. Yes, that's amazing. I never went, but Rudolph, who later became quite prominent, he was the main owner of Dance of Terriers, very popular club. He was behind Pravda. I remember hearing about it because Pravda was a Russian newspaper. The coolest underground bar. So it was very, very, very cool. Of course it was me. The name Pravda. Yeah. The other thing that's interesting about the Rapture video is, which is a part of the connection that I have with them, is they commissioned myself, Lee Kenyonis and Jean Michel. Yes. We did graffiti and spray painted stuff all on that set. So I did a piece. That's amazing. We did a rap, which we're faking, because we came in early. We finished, right? We finished it. We didn't want fumes all over every where, Ferry Body. Lee did a piece that said Lee. And Jean Michel did his kind of Samo phrases and little graffiti in and around that. But that was another little sub-tech. What are the pieces of that set that must be worth a fortune? I was going to say, do those pieces still exist? The long god seriously doubt it. None of us had hit, especially Jean Michel, who went through the room. We've been seeing what we've lost, because we thought it had no value. I mean, like, it's just... Good point. There's so much. I literally, when I went back and watched it now, it's like, where is this Lee piece? Where is this rap piece? Well, you know, that was a part of what I was working to do. That's a very good point that you mentioned. And that's what they were looking to do to help us and to showcase what we were doing, because that's what I was looking to do. Get our work in front of people. I can see it as art. And that was... And treat it seriously like a man. And just look at it seriously and open your mind as opposed to the complete negative blowback that we got constantly without saying, but wait a minute, that's not a bad piece. A guy can create, a guy can paint. Maybe we should figure out a way that we can get this incredible talent that was born right here in this piece. With your awareness of punk rock and your art history as an artist yourself, I can't help but ask you this. Were you thinking about even subconsciously the... And you mentioned Andy Warhol. Yeah. Malcolm McLaren and the Sex Pistols. Was that in your mind at all? Well, interestingly, let's talk about Malcolm. Very much so. So being that I was close to the scene and meeting and reading the face and enemy and sounds and stuff, I got a sense. And I would later meet Johnny Liden and all those guys when they hit the scene, we would all intersect. And they basically had a very disgruntled kind of vibe towards Malcolm because they basically were like, he was a slick businessman guy that was able to get... He controlled... Got the money, essentially. And so they were pissed. When he did come to town to tap into what was going on with hip hop, it was Lady Blue who organized the Roxy and managed the Roxy crew to help really blow the scene up. She wanted me to connect with him. And I just took a pass on that from what I had learned and knew from guys in the class because I was just like, I'm going to step back from that one. But it was Michael Homan that did take him up to the Bronx, took him to Bronx River, kind of gave him a close-up look. And what he did was remarkable. In fact, he brought all the elements together with a good record, Buffalo Girls and the other records in a remarkable way. I like it. It's like a hobo. I like all those... Those are some cool songs. Amazing. And to tap into the Supreme team, which had one of the two or three very obscure rap radio station shows at that time. I think they came on something like on a Tuesday at two in the morning or something. You'd be up with a fresh tape in the box ready to record because the Supreme team was the best. Later, there would be Mr. Magic on New York radio. That would open it up. And then he would be on this WHBI station, which was similar to public access. You got a slot and you paid a few dollars to have it. But then it would go to BLS and then 987 Kiss. But Malcolm McLaren captured the essence of the Supreme team. These two guys, they were 5%ers, which is a black Muslim offshoot. They had a lot of flavor. They would play break beats. They were super cool. You can go on YouTube and hear some of their episodes and stuff. And Malcolm made this really good record ahead of the curve of people being able to really create something that was a unified version of what this hip hop thing is all about. So it was brilliant the way he can do that. And he did. And then went on to do like an opera record. It was like Madame Butterfly. Oh, yeah. And he did the first version of Vogue before Madonna did it, right down to the same black and white video aesthetic. He tapped into that scene. So he was really good at seeing subcultures and showcasing them in pretty effective ways that were true to the roots, tap into the core individuals. And it's not to compare you to him at all. But certainly, you, Andy Warhol and Malcolm McLaren, what you share is a sort of cultural orchestrator role. Executed very differently and with different, perhaps, ethical standards, I think higher ones in your case than in Malcolm's case, culture vulture, with great output. Like a really, he's a mixed bag of a figure in music history. Correct. But I'm a huge Bow Wow Wow fan. I'll go to the mat for Bow Wow Wow. Wow, that's true. You know, Sex Pistols. He managed the New York Dolls for a minute. You know, the man's very important in music history. He was brilliant, essentially. But you, I think, the three of you, I think that you operate it, you have operated in a similar way as a high level cultural orchestrator, as a connector of scenes and music and style and art. So it's really interesting to think about your role in a similar way. Thank you so much. Yeah, well, if things fell in place in ways that, obviously, some things were specifically designed and intent. But when you put yourself, which I found over the years and I talk about in my book, a lot of amazing things came my way that weren't on my agenda. But I had to suss it out and really think deeply, am I going to take this move? Like getting to host the first rap show on MTV, a lot of full circle. MTV puts the raptor on. It's like their first time they're showing a rap video. And then you come full circle and you're hosting MTV's rap show. The producers that were on staff at MTV, one of them, Peter Doherty and also Ted Demi, both are sadly no longer with us. They were campaigning and they were like, he's the guy because Peter was on the downtown scene and knew all the moves I was making, who I was moving, we were intersecting on that scene. He was like, and he's the guy that's in the raptor video. He's right there, which was one of the first videos MTV had to play. So they were like, hmm, let's try this out. And the ratings were through the roof. They thought the Nielsen machine had broken or been hacked. Or somebody had been paid. Correct. That was nonsense. It all worked beyond expectations. So those things happened and framed up and helped shape up and extend on the platform that I was trying to build. I just was trying to present this in a way that people can see us in a much better light, understand us as creatives, which not just myself, but when I got in, I opened the door and held the door open for, and Jean-Michel and I would talk about, it can't just be me and him. Let's bring in other people. And that was like crash and days. And Futura and Ram Elzee, the cast that we felt were creative, unique individuals that can help do their own thing in this new space. If you want to hear something that you may not have been exposed to that really, I think helps encapsulate that period in time, after you listen to Rapture by Blondie, go back and listen to Beat Bop by Ram Elzee. Yeah, Ram Elzee and K-Rob. And K-Rob. Of course, I turned Jean-Michel on to hip hop when we first meet. I have tapes. When I meet all these people, even for Chris and Debbie, I had live tapes from Bronx gigs of Cold Crush, of Fantastic. So these are how this all spread through the city. And that's why most people that was with this had a boombox with a double cassette player. Yes. And that's all for 90 minute copy for your homie, because it was ... Might be fifth generation by that point, but it's ... Definitely fifth generation. But you can still hear the vibe. Authentic grit in that fifth generation. Authentic grit baked in. And that was how it all spread and got around. And so I turned Jean-Michel and, yo, there's this new thing going on, tapes like ... I was loving it. Then he was like, wait, I can do this too. Look, Ram Elzee and K-Rob into the studio and made that beat. And that's interesting too, because that's before Rap was structured. And guys would have records. Would they rap for 15, 20 minutes? It just got on. That was the whole thing. People were like, you can't put rap on a record, because how would that even sound? These guys are on the mic all night. So what would even be ... But to your credit, on another level, you went to Melly Mel in 1979, I think it was. And you were like, hey, many need to make a rap record. He was like, what are you talking about? Are you crazy? You ever think of making a record? He looked at me, he's like, who would buy it? Who would buy it? These guys are not thinking like that at that time. They were not thinking like that. Soon after, they would be showing the light. And once again, this was something that Sylvia and Sugar Hill Records saw. They had a sense, but they just saw how big it was in the communities, in the urban communities in New York City. It was like a no-brainer. Enjoy the label, a local label called Enjoy. I know Enjoy. Release that label. They put out Super Wrapping and a few other records. I think maybe Spoonie G's record, who was this super cool solo rapper before we had Big Daddy Kane and Rock Him and everything. This cap was like that he was it. I guess what Sugar Hill was able to do was to push it out nationally and get it played outside of the New York area. And people loved it. And as they say, the rest of the country's history. Luxury, now that we've learned so much about the song, can you tell us how this was break down? Well, listen, there's a couple of different numbers out there. So just to be clear, splits are often in contention. And what's publicly available is not necessarily where things will go or the end of the story. But the credits on the record say that it's 50-50, Chris Stein and Debbie Harry. But I did find one claim somewhere in PRS specifically for the deeper, deeper credit nerds out there. In PRS, there's a third that has been claimed, I believe, by the estate of Clemberg. So it's interesting to note having listened to his hi-hat pattern, maybe recognizing that it had a say in what the rapping cadence may have turned out to be. I'm not sure what's going on with this. But there is a possibility that Clemberg, or his estate, I should say, since he passed recently, might be cut into the songwriting, publishing credits on the song. But to be clear, it's clearly its unsettled business right now. Well, Freddie, we've talked a lot about this song. We want to talk about the legacy of this song. Let's start there. What do you think the legacy of Rapture is? It's an important piece in introducing and setting the table, I feel. Many people that heard Rapture, some of the earliest rap records that did break out of New York, beyond the fact that people thought novelty at first or just whatever. This is some kind of weird kind of thing. It set the table, I guess, while style, the film that I was a big part of didn't have a national release. But it showed that was the first showing that this is a scene. This is a culture developing in urban areas in New York City. And if you then look at, listen to the Rapture, wait, Rapture, they were rapping. Oh, and these guys were doing graffiti in the background. It helped set the table for what would come. In fact, once again, when Peter Dardy and Ted Demi were lobbying the execs at MTV to put a rap show on, they were like, look, this is a part of the story, along with the fact that Run DMC, LL Cool J, Early Houdini, these records were going go with little to no marketing at all. So they were like, look what we have here. And here's this channel, which is looking at music videos. And that was one of the first music videos MTV played. As time progressed and people understood more of the story from connecting the dots from other things that happened, even like I'm well aware, people didn't know who the hell of Fab Five Freddy was or what that was. But when your MTV raps happened and became this big, highly rated show on the channel, the press that we would get would reference, this is who this guy is. And then they go, wow. So a piece came together and people got the complete picture. And then the fact that they weren't a band that was just trying to rip the culture off. No, it doesn't come apart that way. They shared love and shouted people out and did it in a sincere kind of way that added to, I think, a big part of what hip hop has been about, like exchange and interchange. And I looked at the relationship that I developed with them as a cultural exchange. I'm sharing these new things and I told them I was a big fan of Andy. Well, the first time I met Andy, officially, Andy Warhol was hanging out with Chris and Debbie. I want to bring this up because this is sort of what has not been stated explicitly, but it is all through your book. Everybody's fly. Go check it out. It's just that you saw art and you heard music. You saw dancing. You saw culture, you know, and you, and I love in your book, when you talk about like, it was every bit a school of art as much as impressionism and dataism and all that stuff. I want to make those connections to show people that it connected like those movements did. I felt strong. It was a full picture. And that leads me to a question that's part legacy, but also the part where goes hip hop from here because I think that a lot of our frustration, and this is, I think, across generations, I think a lot of our frustration is that maybe because the internet gives us access to so much immediately that it's hard to find underground culture now and truly get excited. Cause it's almost like, you know, where do you go? Like it used to be like that late night radio show that came on at two in the morning. There was an early adopter or, you know, maybe it was that, you know, Pirate Radio Station. If you're in the UK, like, why do you think it's so hard for us to find new culture for all of us to get excited about it? Is it because we're so dispersed with our different ways in? I don't want to answer this question for you, but I feel like you must have an opinion. Well, I think that's a part and parcel of the problem is we have immediate access for million songs, let's just say, and the devices in our pockets. And I think it's, do we or don't we post what we're doing immediately online for the world to kind of see and share? I think sometimes being able to hold back is important in the creative process, comparing it to what came before. Hip-hop had a good 10, 15 years to develop, to forge roots, to go deep before it got exposed on your MTV raps and then other states and other countries around the world jumped on board. I think that's one part of the issue. But I feel definitely there's interesting things going on. I think one of the problems happens when these things get exposed maybe too early. And then the people rush in and get all over it and pick it dry. And the artists themselves may not understand initially how it's good to hold back a bit until you've really developed something or you've really, you know, I'm sure you've heard stories about different acts that didn't hit on the first album. And record companies were invested in developing an act, getting all aspects together, believing in you over the long run and building you up to a certain point. So I don't quite have all the answers, but I do know that there are interesting things going on. When I meet people doing interesting things musically or what happened, I'm like, please hit me with some links. I can see what you're doing, what you're listening to, because this is a zillion songs out there. Who's going to be that kind of filter? Arbiter. Arbiter. You know what I'm talking about. I think it's me and luxury. I think that's the. We will gladly take on that role. No, you guys are doing a really good job. And the way you dissect music is so informative and you learn so much like what the blue notes are and all these kind of things that I'm like, you've heard and felt. But I didn't really know the definitive way to do it. So, I mean, there's good things about where we are. And there's certainly problematic things. I think, you know, how you hold back on once again, exposing it all too soon online, but also knowing where to dig down deep and find that interesting, those interesting little kernels of things that are happening. It's a search that we must do. Let me ask you a question just as a fan of yours from YoMTVRaps. Was there ever a song or an artist that you like pushed YoMTVRaps to play where they're like, no, we can't do that. Oh, no, that never happened. We had control over YoMTVRaps. In fact, with Ted and Peter stepped back after a while and it was pretty much Ted Demi that ran things and Ted had a really good taste, but they would run everything by me. Like when a new act came through, they wanted to make sure that we were all in sync on it. It wasn't from top down. Hey, guys, whatever, whatever. Because there were things... Playing these 10 videos. Yeah, no, hell no. They trusted us to go out and do it and find the acts and, you know, what are we going to showcase on the show? And we were where we were looking to showcase. We knew it had obviously had all been born red and holly green fed in New York. But we were like, well, we got to represent the rest of the country now because we've hearing that there's this guy in Miami who was at the time Luke Skywalker. Yeah, yeah, of course. And Billy, I've always looked at him. Also very not worried about a season to sis letter. He definitely wasn't. But the first time we traveled, the big joy for hosting YoMTVRaps was getting to travel to these other places to showcase. And so we immediately were like, well, when Peter said, man, how would you want to do this show? I said, man, I just don't want to be cooped up in the studio with the green screen and goofy shit going on like all the other VJs did. I said, man, that's whack. I said, I'd be more comfortable in the street if cast is in a basement putting beats together. I want to talk to them there and feel that energy. And they said, let's do that. So that's what we did. Because I was just as curious to understand what was going on in Houston's Fifth Ward with the Ghetto Boys. Or when we did NWA's first time on TV is we began at the welcome to Compton sign. And then we rented a flatbed truck that we can drive around and people can see L.A. see South Central. So the desire to do that and the filmmaker in me wanting to show some good images was what we got to do. And it worked remarkably well. The problem developed a few years in when they got hit. Like, for instance, you have a company like Guess who's spending money to advertise on YoMTVRaps. And then you have numerous people in numerous videos wearing Fubu shirts. And then them learning that, oh, this is a brand. And they're getting free advertising worn by the groups. And Guess is like, what the hell? Like we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. And these guys are just so that became a problem with videos. They do the late MTV with like, well, they're late. That's why they started blurring them out to please the paying sponsors. Well, too. Yeah. Because you got guys paying and you got groups wearing like all Hilfig magic city. If that was like a hot brand, they'd be like, well, this guy's got the magic city on and we've got to pay for ad space. So that became problematic. But the labels took their time to blur these things out. And other video shows developed like BT finally developed their rap show. Yeah. And they didn't have those same issues. They led the guys wear whatever. And rap city was a whole other story. It was a whole other story, eventually, when that jumped off. But it was good. And initially we had free reign and we broke many acts. And we loved it. We're playing it and it would go. We'd hear stories about the record sales going crazy the week after the show. Yeah. It was just such a cool thing to help people out and to give them some, you know, showcase them on TV. I would pull groups to the side. They'd be so nervous. Oh my God, I got this mic in my hand. I'll walk them over and just, you know, do this all good. You know, it has to be stuttering and nervous. I said, look, man, we'll do this again. If you screw up, I'll sometimes say something that's overly ebonic. My producers would be like, Fab, you just said, I'd be like, what? I said, dad, we're definitely going to reshoot this shit. It says some ebonic bananas, craziness. But it was fun. And it was it was it was it was amazing to see that happen and to be a big spark in the game. Well, Fab, I've already thank you so much for coming on our little show. It's such an honor to have you here. Can I just say that the first time I went to CBGB's exploring this whole new wave punk scene and that was the venue, the first band I saw perform with the cramps. Oh, can I love them? And it's funny that your name is Lux. Yeah, Lux Interior. Lux Interior was the lead of the cramps and his girl, the IV, they were. I'm poison Ivy. Yep. Oisin Ivy. They were incredibly and he scared the shit out of me. And the fact that I'll bet at the time before they became known, right? What would it have been like to see them in 19 what? It was like scary. They were like incredible in the vibe and right. Readers for the black leather. Look at just the austere, gritty grimyness of CBGB's and his man. I'm like, oh, it's just kind of ban really kind of scare you a bit. Yeah. And is there doing this horror kind of gothic kind of swamp rock? Rockabilly swamp rock. I like that. And they went, they went. Fight the crowd sometimes. No. So the other band, the band that had it open for them was James White. And the blacks. Oh, or James Chance. Well, that became James White and the black. But his initial band was contortions. Contortions, right. And so the contortions were the support band that night of CBGB. What James White would do famously was start a fight or punch people down front. And he'd like, just get out of your trunk. If you might slap somebody or whatever. That was like a part of the act, which was crazy. And get back on stage bleeding. Listen, there was a band, these tough white dudes from Brooklyn called Straight Edge. They were some real rumblers. And unfortunately, the guy that James White thought he could hit was one of these dudes. They beat the shit out of him. And he gets back up on stage of CBGB's blood flowing out his nose, finished the whole set. I'm like, man, I would have left this thing that. It's so crazy. He should ever like this dude is bleeding. He's driving, singing in the blood as every. I'm like, this shit is wild. And then the cramps come on. It was a scene. Oh man, the cramps are one of my favorite bands. I used to see them play in San Francisco every Halloween because that was their like they would make the rounds when I was when I was a teenager growing up. So that's amazing. I love that you loved that. Did you ever see the footage when they played at a mental institution? No. It's all up to us. People in this clip. That's on YouTube. I think it's on YouTube. And it is genius and insane. Like the literally these people in the crowd and the group performing. Well, it was a moment. They had their own thing. Yeah. And at the time, I'm sure you didn't know if there was a wink or not. You're like, are these guys scary? Are they cartoon characters? Are they the real deal? Yes, it was a it was a nice mix. Did you meet them? Did you ever talk to them? I met I met Lux once. We just just spoke briefly. I think at Bleak of Bobs in fact, which was a record store. Yes. Record store. Right. What my first punk record right off the eighth right off the eighth home of League of Street. And he was a really rude guy. It was like a soup Nazi of the record store game. He's the he's the archetype for the rude guy who works in the record store. Basically, he's that guy. And Lux was in there one day and I was like, well, Lux. He was like, hey. But that was intense. What I wouldn't give to have like gone through to have experienced what you experienced. Yeah. And it's all in your book, which is called Everybody's Fly out now. Where can people get or find out about your new book? Oh, it's available everywhere. Find books or so. And as well as the audible and Spotify for the audio version, which is a lot of special treats. So you get interviews. Yes. You could turn them pages as a great photo insert. I worked really hard to get with photographers from back then and digging to their crates to find really never before published photos of myself, Jean-Michel, some, a lot of stuff I pulled. They, even though the photos are not that big, did a real deal in terms of what, how it looked back then. And some of the key players who shot with me, Keith Haring and JFK Junior, that I got out of the Keith's, Keith's archive out of his estate, show me stuff. So it was really fun to put it together to share all these stories. Congratulations on finishing it, getting it out there and going on to work. I'll say it's such a good read. It's such a fun read. Thank you, man. I put up there with some of the best, you know, music bios I've ever read. Thank you so much. And it really means a lot to have it, to sharing it. And the feedback I'm getting is good. I'm out here in LA. We had a big book event at the, at the Lodge Room last night. And Roger Gwynveer Smith, the incredible actor, did a talk with me. He's a good friend and all the, a lot of my old school LA friends from Delicious Vino, which I talk all about the guys that started that label, which was the big rap label out here before Rufeless. Yes. Those guys were my buddies and I talk about meeting them and they all came out last night. So it was really fun. Well, thank you for coming on the show today. Thanks for having me, man. As always, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on Instagram at Diallo, D-I-A-L-L-O and on TikTok at Diallo Riddle. And you can find me on Instagram at L-U-X-X-U-R-Y and on TikTok at LuxuryXX. And you can follow our podcast on Instagram and TikTok at One Song Podcast for exclusive content. You can also watch full episodes of One Song on YouTube. Just search for One Song Podcast. We'd love it if you'd like and subscribe. Also be sure to check out the One Song Spotify playlist for all the songs we discuss in these episodes. You can find the link in our episode description. And if you've made it this far, you're officially a part of the One Song nation. Show us some love, give us five stars, leave a review and send this episode to a fellow music fan. It really helps keep the show thriving. And by the way, if you're looking for even more music facts, more conversations between Diallo and Luxury and basically more of us, we've got a Patreon now. You can find us at patreon.com slash Diallo Luxury. That's right, Diallo Luxury. Luxury helped me in this thing. I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, musicologist and every Friday night from 10 till midnight KCRW DJ Luxury. And I'm actor, writer, director and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle. And this is One Song. We'll see you next time. This episode was produced by Casey Simonson, mixing and engineering by Eric Hicks.