Gov. Tim Walz and Jason Zengerle: The Assault on Minnesota

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But you have to act fast because every deal is one of a kind. So if you see something you love, make sure you add to cart fast. So stop paying full price when you don't have to. Whether it's Baby Gear, Kitchen Upgrades, or a treasure for your home, you didn't know you needed. Rebel has it for way less, up to 70% less. Shop from Rebel.com and save big. All right, everybody, we got a double header for you today. It was planning on going deep on Tucker Carlson with my friend, Jake Senzengerly of the New Yorker. But obviously, the news out of Minnesota is so urgent. And I'm really grateful that we had the chance to talk to Governor Tim Walls this morning, bright and early. He was out there voting in a special election and then came straight to talk with us. And it was really a pleasure. It's the first time we got to talk to him. Stick around for both. Segment two will be Jason Sengerly. And up next, Governor Tim Walls. Hello, welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. Glad to welcome to the show the Governor of Minnesota and former nominee for Vice President of the United States. It's Tim Walls. Governor Walls, you wrote in the Wall Street generally yesterday about the assault on Minnesota. And I just want to start there. What is the latest on the ground? Have we noticed any change since last night? Yeah, well, good to be with you, Tim. And thanks for all the coverage of this. We're really, you know, we're appreciative folks are out there. Look, I don't know how to describe it other than an assault. I've never witnessed anything like this. And I think as good as the reporting has been, it doesn't touch just every little issue in our children watching people get drug. I mean, everyone here has a trauma response. And then of course, with Renee and Alex's murder, pretty overwhelming. But I have to say, what you witnessed was is what massive organized nonviolent resistance did to be very clear. There's a change in tone. And we'll see. I'm going to meet here later today with Tom Oman. I understand Greg Bavino is gone, you know, and that's a good riddened one. But it doesn't change the fact that the posture is still the same, that this is an unorganized, untrained, dangerous force on the streets that has nothing to do with either immigration or law enforcement. So I'll tell you today is there's a bit of optimism. But there's such a sense of resolve. And I would say this is the Minnesota kind of attitude. A lot of folks think winners over in March, Minnesotans don't let their guard down to May. And I'm telling you, these folks that are out there on the streets, they're very skeptical and rightfully so. So the mood is there's a hint of hope and optimism. But there is a resolve that says, you know, the end of this is not Greg Bavino leaving. The end of this is a sane policy on how you do immigration reform and stop and attack by the federal government on a state. It's a point. You said you're going to meet with Tom Oman later today. I can car that getting rid of little Greg is a plus. But the demand was to get ice out and CBP out. And to start placing him with Tom Oman, who has been in his own right, pretty incendiary on Fox. And has his own baggage. I'm wondering if you think that's a satisfactory change for starters. And when you meet with him, what you're going to ask him about? Well, look, I'm going to give him the benefit of that out in Tim. I think you recognize this. And I think you have the vibe, if you will, of this one on this. This White House makes decisions based on emotions and non-reality that we're living in. I am in a position right now where I want to be very careful to continue to stand up. And we won't give an inch, but not to poke the barrel. We don't need it. My hope is with Tom Oman is different from Greg Bavino and these folks on the streets that are just amateurs. That he is a true law enforcement professional. I certainly wouldn't agree with his ideology on things, but I think what he understands is this thing turned into a disaster for them. They're the most popular issue on immigration. The bottom has fallen out on them. And look, I would like to thank humanity is why they called me and said we want to get out of this. But you and I both know it's probably not what it was. But I don't care. Whatever it takes at this point to get to the right space. And so my guess is that Tom Oman understands, if you really want to enforce immigration, if you really want to get the worst to the worst, you coordinate with local folks, you coordinate with our BCA, and you pick these people up when they're not suspecting it in the middle of the night where no shots are fired. You heard the police sheep and I'll say that we've taken 900 guns off the streets and Minneapolis us. You're getting fire single shot. Same thing with my state troopers. So look, I think this is an opportunity. I think the politics for the White House is they cannot afford to see tear gas on the streets. And they certainly can't afford to see another incident like we saw on Saturday morning. So I think they're serious about this. Here's my fear to him. Do they just shift this nightmare somewhere else? Do they shift it to Janet Mills? I don't think they'll shift it to Philly because they found out how damn tough people are in Minneapolis. And I think Philly's ready. So we got work to do. The good news is it looks like Congress is waking up. You know, that the call when Chuck Schumer said we're not going to fund them. That was music to all of our ears because for Christ's sake, that's the bars really low here for success. But that's success. Speaking of low bar, not murdering people is a pretty low bar. I think one thing I would ask Tom Homan, if I were in your shoes, is also ending just the harassment, the racial profiling, going up to people based on how they look on their accent, the harassment of protesters. And I don't see how the resistance to this can stop unless they stop infringing on the rights of people that aren't doing anything, that aren't criminals. Yeah, and that's what's foundation on look. We added some folks. We added the second member folks. I've been screaming, where are the don't tread on me folks? Well, they're showing up a little bit on this. But yeah, you're exactly right. And I'm going to ask, and I didn't on the call because that's very specific. We need a full independent investigation of these murders and accountability. And we need them out of here. But I'm going to ask Tom Homan, you spoke about this. The insult just to the soul of this. I mean, this is moral injury that we're living through. They still have an active federal investigation into the wife of Renee Good. And that is demented shit right there. And that investigation is one that just, I mean, it is beyond the pale and the average Minnesotans are so horrified by it. So look, there's things that they could do today in addition to getting rid of Lovino that we need to see. And I don't think they have a lot of time to do this because this thing has grown. My faith has always been here with Minnesotans, but I feel the rest of the country coming to our aid. All right, speaking of independent investigation, the first step in independent investigation is knowing who actually shot Alex Freddie. We still don't know. Do you know? No, I do not know. I don't know where they're at. I don't know their names. I don't have anything. Tim, I think you sum this up. This is the world we're living in. The idea that you saw this, we all saw it. And then you watch Christy know him do that. I mean, I think we'll go down in history as one of the most egregious things ever to come out of administration the way they talked about this. But the worst part of it was is basically sweeping this crime scene, keeping us out of there. We were ready for this after Renee Good. So my professionals at the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension showed up with a court order that said we would be allowed on there to gather that and we were still kept out. So yeah, I don't know. And you know how these crime scenes work? You ruin the evidence. You don't know what's there. I have a pretty good idea who did this, what they did, and what's come out of this. But when you do an investigation like this, what precipitated it? Were there more things there? What are we missing? We're not getting to see any of that. And the gaslighting was to say, look, we're not very good at handling stuff on the streets where we murder your people, but we'll handle the investigation like true professionals. They don't even have a crime lab. And here's what's telling. And I hope your viewers get this. The FBI is not involved in this because they wouldn't even touch it. They knew this was such a horrible thing. It's not that the FBI is collaborating with DHS. The FBI is just saying, not on us. This is terrible. DHS is our own little internal HSI that's doing this stuff. So here's my thing though about not knowing who killed Alex Freddie. You can't have reconciliation without transparency. I don't understand that people in a soda can accept the word of this administration about how they're going to change their tactics because they don't tell us what happened. They can't. They can't. Me and you, the taxpayers pay those agents that were in the streets of Minnesota. And you cannot have public servants anonymous and masked and murdering our fellow Americans. Like it's unacceptable. We have to know who did it. And we have to have an independent investigation. In fact, they haven't even told the governor of Minnesota who did this is insane. Yeah. And we don't know where they're out. I'm assuming they're out of state. Look, I know this is going to be a tough one for folks. And I don't know if it's the direct analogy on this is but the greegeous harm that has been done directly to Minnesota by the rest of the country by this is, I don't see how you end this without some type of truth in reconciliation like we saw in South Africa after some of this stuff. I can't express to people just how horrific this is to have these folks on the streets in their mask. And Tim, just for the contrast of this, you know that good policing. And we dealt with this after the murder of George Floyd. Good policing is building trust. All that stuff you saw at the Whipple Building, the federal building where Bavino had his headquarters and stuff every day. You saw these guys rushing out and yelling and throwing smoke canisters, whatever. We got them out of there. And when the National Guard came in, what you saw yesterday was unmasked professionals from our stay handing out hot chocolate coffee and donuts. And now the protesters today are asking us if they can deliver homemade food back to the National Guard who are out there cold too. And there's a relationship. And the Guard knows that those people have the right to set there and protest and do whatever they need. That change is just so dramatic. So my hope is that a homin gets that. But I'm with you, Tim. If they think we're not bringing these folks back, you know, if it goes through the process, the grand jury says let's indict them, they should come back here. Derek Shovon setting in prison because he murdered George Floyd. Look, I'm not on the jury and I don't want to take this thing. But I'm telling you, we're going to do a full investigation. And if the folks who did this, which you saw with your eyes, they need to be held accountable. And they're not getting out of this. Has that investigation started? Who would do this? I guess we're doing what we can do. We were able to get out there the next day. We being the BCA, we're gathering Evans, the same thing with Renee Good and the Hennepin County prosecutor is working on this. The attorney general is doing it. And we will do this. And we do it well. I think these folks think somehow, you know, they're getting out of this. Let's say they stall us for three years. They're still coming back. We're still going to find out who it is. And they're still going to be. Because if you don't, that's foundational to our democracy. We lose it all if we don't do this. Yeah, it's a free country, right? And people that work for the government, you know this. I get frustrated when you hear from the other side and saying, well, they have received threats and they've been docks. And I don't support threats. I don't support docks. I know you don't. But you've received threats. You've received docks and judges have. Your police officers have. And they're transparent. And they show their face and they show their name. I was friend and speaker. The house was murdered over political issues here earlier in the summer. I tell you know, your listeners to understand the trauma in Minnesota, I can't even explain it to you. To have our most popular politician murdered with her and her husband and her dog over someone that has a diatribe over abortion. And then for Republicans to somehow say, oh, maybe the governor's behind this. What is Christy Nome's first thing on this is, this is on the governor. He talked him into this. Look, they are running this stuff up in their reality. But they came up against what democracy looks like. I think they thought they could steamroll this. I think they thought that they would get weak resistance or they would try and provoke violence. Neither of those things happen. And look, in a world where it's really hard to find, you know, some hope and optimism on this, people of Minnesota won this thing in 40 below winter, at least won this first battle. I want to be very careful. Nothing has changed here. As far as I know, they're still out on the streets. We'll see today. And we'll see if Tom Homan changes the entire approach to what they're doing. Hey, man, to that on the peaceful protest by the light. They want to dry its and just unbelievable bravery. And I'm so proud of your citizens and we're watching. Me too. And I'll tell you how proud I am. I'll tell you if anybody deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. It's the people of Minnesota. To that. I want to ask you about a couple of phone calls you've had to have. None of them pleasant. I assume first with the president, he said in his statement, do you guys are on a similar wavelength? Wondering if you agree with that? And what the phone call is like? Well, look, and I will just say, and I've got a good team around me, you can imagine Tim, I am furious, I'm angry, I'm trying to contain my emotions on this. And I told the president that this has got to end. And I think when he thinks on the wavelength, he says, yeah, I agree this has to end. Now, I don't actually know what his end state looks like compared to my end state, but we both agree that this needs to end. And then, he was quoting statistics and he said, well, we've already pulled 13,000. Our local media has done a wonderful job of this. All of these are lies. Tim, they're putting up pictures of some of the worst of the worst, the one that they're bragging about. We arrested him and he was in a Minnesota prison for years and we handed him over to him. So this is not like they were out. Oh, we raided a house and found this decriminal. So I'm trying to tell him, I said, Mr. President, you're getting really bad advice. And as far as detainers go, meaning you have someone in a prison year, we have about 8,000, one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country. And of those 8,207 are not documented. We're more than happy and we always do if there's a detainer, when they get time to be released from our prisons, we always and have for decades alert eyes to come pick them up. But what you saw this week is we had a rural, conservative county and a sheriff. Had a guy that was in Nisjail served his time. There is no legal way to hold him further. So he did what he has the authority to do. He's not a sanctuary county. He called ICE and said, come pick him up. They said, we can't, we're busy in Minneapolis. And so the absurdity of this, you had someone who shouldn't be here and we can all agree that if you are a criminal and shouldn't be here, we should process you for that. We agree with that. Minnesotans agree with that. They didn't show up because they were busy harassing people like Alex. And it's just ludicrous. I saw some of the conservatives I fell online. Their response to that is, well, that's not true about Hennepin County and Minneapolis, St. Paul corrections facilities. They're not cooperating the same way. So these are the ones ours. That's what your response to that? It is different on those that on the retainers that they're not. But I will say this, they are following the law and what gets mixed up in this is that they say, you know, the fake straw man, you just don't care about security and you want someone, then they bring it up and we're an undocumented person committed to crime. None of us want those folks here, but a lot of these folks are in there on misdemeanors. And again, immigration issues are civil. And so a lot of times these counties are not going to hold a extra time. A lot of the things they come to me as they want us to do their job, I'm not going to do your job. And the one thing you've seen in this is, you have to have trust in the community. If we were out there acting like they act, we would never have any cooperation with our citizens of getting things done. So the counties do have their ability. They have their own sovereignty. If there's a state law passed that doesn't allow that to happen, we can have that conversation, but that's not how it works. This is local democracy. The same way I don't tell these conservative counties that they can't cooperate. They can. The Trump call? How do you be pretty weird though, right? What was it like? Yeah, I think so. Look, I mean, here's what's weird about it, Jim, is that he knows you have to work together, but it is a strange thing as an individual human being. He calls me the R word. He makes up things that I'm corrupt. Like there's something seriously wrong with this guy. And then you get to call it, we got to work together. And look, I'm probably guilty of that too, because I call them things. I just think I can probably back my comments up a little bit, but I think, and this is where I am very hopeful, for the president to make that call, to tell me he will look into giving us back the cases, partnering with them and reducing the numbers. I'm not going to say I'm grateful, because you started this far. You don't get credit for putting it out after you started it. But I am going to say, especially in these times, that they are working for a solution. And again, I won't pretend to look into their hearts. I think I know on this, I just care that they end up in the same place where I'm going to end up is quit hassling our citizens, follow the constitution, get these folks out of here, and make the folks who shot Alex and Renee accountable for what they did. I've been cheerleading you the last two weeks. Can I give you my one bone? I've got to pick with you though. I'm forget to hang out. Yeah, I have noticed in the past that you have been able to do that. I do have a couple of bones. I do have a couple of bones. Go ahead, I appreciate you coming on, particularly with JD Vance. You'd be on the debate stage with him. He's a current vice president. He shared a Steven Miller post this week calling Alex Freddie at a sassin. He came to your state and lied about your law enforcement. Yeah, you got to look back about being on the debate stage with him and thinking, man, you really maybe gave this person a little too much of the benefit of the doubt. And assuming good faith was maybe a mistake with JD Vance. Look, I'll own it. But Tim, you've been around this long enough. No, when you're on a ticket, you take your orders. Look, I have agency on that, meaning I could have been this, but I am a good team player. And I will say this, I never kidded anybody about debates. I don't like get joy out of beating someone in this or whatever. And I said, the worst people I think are debates or teachers where I try to find reconciliation. And I think he was well prepped. It was strange to me to be in the presence of someone who I couldn't see a tell on him when he lied. It was so small. Usually you can see it like with me. I'm like, oh, I'm a terrible liar. I'm terrible poker player. And so I think the whole idea was there. Look, again, when they fact checked it, I think he had 38 misstatements. They said I had two. One of them was that Trump doesn't pay taxes. I'll stand by that. But yes, I do. And retrospect wise, I don't know. And you and I both know this. How much does a vice presidential debate matter in this? But I live with it because look, don't think I don't. And I've said this before. I own this. I started talking about it in January and I was out there. And I got some criticism about this. People ask me, what would you have done differently? Well, we would have won. And we didn't. Which means you do own some of that. I can't just blame it all. You know, the electorate didn't get it. There were things that weren't there. And so part of that was me, but I know who I am. I'm really effective. Even was really effective as a member of Congress because I was one of the more bipartisan members. So this idea that I am more than willing to reach to find compromise. And I do see this as a sort of leadership. And I don't see it as a sense of power. He was good at that. And I mean, he smooth. I never claim to do that. But I'm pretty effective. But I'll take the criticism. I'm for bipartisan. Here's the problem. I'm for bipartisan. Yes, I would need to shoot out of him now, if I could. And I would call that out. I mean, that's just different. I am verbally going at it. My argument was much better. And making the case that housing prices are up because of immigration and that we should build on federal lands, it was such a crazy thing. But then when I watched him, I got sucked into that. If you remember, this was right in that moment of eating dogs and cats, I took that bait and thought that that was the argument of how outrageous it was. That was not the argument. And he said to the ear cops or liars. They said that. That's exactly right. That this is the problem with them. And well, the president said it, that we told him to stand down. You think they would do that? Do you think that police would not protect citizens? No matter if I'm like, oh, don't do this. This is the whole paradox with these guys. They don't back the blue. They don't back police. January 6th proved that. The known and the rest of those guys will tell you that. They back the blue when you're with them. They're not like it now. And I'll tell you what they're angry about is, is you got folks like Chief O'Hara understanding and calling this crap out and saying this isn't how it works. And that man had the hardest job in America to try and restore trust in a police department after George Floyd was murdered and laid on that street for nine and a half minutes. Because that's still a tough situation here. And look, we're still grappling with the fallouts of what happened with George Floyd. I think there's an internal trauma here, which I think makes what you're seeing now even more impressive that folks have stayed peaceful. I want to ask you how to chance to talk to a family of the Freddie families, which are in a good family. And what folks who are listening can do to be helpful. Yeah. Well, thank you for asking that. And I have to say media and what I'm seeing is both online and traditional has really going to a good job of telling Alex's story, telling her name's story. And look, when I talk to the parents right away, and I never understand where this courage comes from. They're absolutely shattered, but they were absolutely adamant. And the thing that they told me, and it's why every time I get on these interviews, and I appreciate you saying that is, they said, look, the world knows how he died. You need to tell him how he lived. And so yesterday, I spent an hour with all of his coworkers who are totally traumatized. And these are the toughest people you'll find. They're ICU nurses in a veterans hospital, one of the biggest in America. And they're traumatized by this, but they just wanted to tell the story. And what they said about Alex, they said, his sense of moral clarity was so big. The guy's a gun owner and everything. They said, but he understood what it meant on the Constitution in a really deep manner. And I've one of his colleagues and the family said, the minute they pushed that woman to the ground, that Alex had no other choice. Because just as sure as he breathes, he was going to go and input himself in between. And what I think you saw was, is these folks tried to bring this, this mag of this tough guy or whatever. And what you found out was the real strength, the real decency in the heart of America, are these protesters and two of the best examples are Alex and Renee. And so I'm proud of Minnesota in this moment. I'm heartbroken for him. We are all just beaked. And we had the enunciation shooting. I'm dealing with that. But these parents wanted America to know. Our son was a good man. He was doing the right thing. He couldn't do anything else except be there. And I think they want that told. All right, Governor Tim Walls, I appreciate all the time, man. Let's do it again, hopefully in less tragic circumstances, down the line. Yeah, I'd love to come back. I appreciate your work, too. I think you've got the perspective that helps bring some folks in who might not be as engaged. So keep up the good work. All right, I appreciate it. We'll see you soon. Thanks. All right, thanks to Governor Tim Walls. Up next, the New Yorkers, Jason Zingerly. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run, and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there. Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time. From startups to scale ups, online, in person, and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. Omaha Steaks semi-annual sale is here. It's a sale so nice, they do it twice a year. Save 50% site-wide on the world's best proteins, like legendary steaks, gourmet burgers, versatile chicken, pork, seafood, and more. Plus get an extra $35 off with code audio when you shop OmahaStakes.com today. Now is the time to save big on everything you need to serve up mouth-watering flavor, like USDA certified tender steaks, perfectly aged to maximize tenderness and hand-cut by master butchers in America's heartland and delivered right to your door. With unrivaled quality and variety, every bite is backed by their 100% satisfaction guarantee. Don't wait, shop now at OmahaStakes.com and save 50% site-wide on steaks and more during the semi-annual sale. Plus get an extra $35 off with promo code audio at checkout. That's OmahaStakes.com promo code AUDIO. Minimum purchase may apply, see site for details. All right, we are back. He is a staff writer at the New Yorker fanciy, he's the author of the brand new book, hated by all the right people, Tucker Carlson, and the unraveling of the conservative mind. It's Jason Zengerl. It was that man. Hey, Jim, how are you? I'm doing well. Usually if you'd be on, we'd be doing a little basketball talk, but unfortunately we got a lot of news. You got a new book out. And before we got to Tucker, I'm going to pick your brain on another one of the favorites of the pod. A guy named Stephen Miller. You read a long profile about him last summer, the ruthless ambition of Stephen Miller. One of the questions you kind of went over was, like, could this little guy really hold on to power for the whole second term? And I kind of feel like we're at an inflection point on that right now. Yeah, we might be. It is interesting the way Trump seems to be climbing down a little bit on some of these ice actions. And I saw that he met with a gnome and Corey Lewandowski last night at the White House. And Miller was not there for that meeting. I don't know what that means. This is clearly something that Miller is behind. He wants, I mean, he's for all intents and purposes, he runs DHS, not gnome. So this is his baby. And he's the one who's really the committed ideologue on immigration, much more so than the president. And then Trump has wappled here and there. You've seen him supporting H1Bs, things like that. The first round of ice raids, when they went after agricultural workers, Trump seemed to want it back away from that before Miller's different despine. He went, he'd stuck with it. It'll be really interesting to see if Trump decides that Miller's a liability here and that his approach to immigration is a liability because it's clearly costing him and the polls. It seems to be costing him some support up on the hill with Republicans. And this is what Miller wants. And the entire swaggering approach, that's Stephen Miller. And Trump, I think, for that was going along with it when it wasn't costing him. But now that it's costing him, yeah, I could see it being a tough time for Miller. Something I just can't get my head around is like, how Donald Trump tolerates being around Stephen Miller. He's not really the type of personality that Trump has usually drawn to. I mean, he's extremely off-putting. You could see Trump kind of wanted to give him a swirlly a little bit. And so how does Stephen like stay in his good graces? He's just a really like savvy bureaucratic operator. He makes alliances with people who he knows Trump is close to. He was Jeff Sessions and Steve Bannon's boy. I mean, that was how he came into Trump world. And as soon as Bannon and Sessions fell out of favor, he pivoted and he became Ivanka Trump's boy. And then how did he do that? Just like, just Brown knows things? So as I understand it, he helped her with some of her own kind of policy projects having to do with family leave and stuff like that. She didn't know anything about politics or policy or the bureaucratic process. And he just kind of gave her a hand and gotten her good graces so that when the immigration stuff blew up, especially with the family separation, she was opposed to it. But she didn't criticize him personally as much to her father as she might have if he hadn't gotten in her good graces. Look, he's an incredible sick of him. I mean, the way he talks about Trump publicly, I don't know if you saw the Ben Terris piece in New York magazine this week about Trump's health. But I think the title of the piece is a Stephen Miller quote, the superhuman president. That's the way he talks about Trump, I think, privately as well. And he's just a sick of him around Trump. And I think obviously Trump has a lot of sick of him. But for whatever reason, Miller's stuff resonates with him in a way. And I think I'm like you were saying that him being off-putting, I mean, and wanting to get him a sorely. I mean, Trump kind of does like give him verbal sorely, he's right and hazes him and talks about how, if you had your way, the whole country would look like you. Yeah, it's an interesting relationship. Brown shirt, brown nose, I guess, is the answer for him. I've one other person that I have to ask you about, the Euro profile about recently, the relevant what's happening out there right now, which is Marie Glews and Camperes. She's been kind of a favorite of the pod. She's very charming. I mean, that in a sincere way, unlike the sarcastic way I meant it before. I find her charming. I like that she is resistant to kind of the Ivy League lib hive mind on various things. And I think that's a valuable instinct for Democrats. They want to start winning over people who don't have those sensibilities again. But man, her response this week to ICE has been pretty like alarming. And she voted to continue funding DHS and then gave a statement yesterday or two days ago about how the Democratic politicians hanging on the protesters share some responsibility here. And I just, I'm just wondering if you have any insight on that. I know that distancing herself from Biden on immigration was kind of part of her origin story. So maybe she just like, you know, has been locked up on that if you have any other thoughts. But I think maybe it's more to do with law enforcement and her support of law enforcement, especially in her district and the sentiment among, you know, members of law enforcement or family members or people close to law enforcement. The response isn't exactly the same as like liberals response, especially when it comes to things like masking, inducing, which I think you have most Democrats. And a lot of people think it's a ridiculous to be plurying masks. I think among some people in law enforcement were not, you know, people who were doing this stuff with ICE in Minnesota, there is more of a defensive masking and a concern about being docs. And I think she's trying to get some voice to that. That's my sense at least. I don't think it has as much to do with immigration as much as it has to do with law enforcement. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify, especially designed to help you start, run, and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there. Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups, online, in person, and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. WhirlPwritten, is there any greater value out there than get it clear for fiber from only 19 pounds a month? It's out of this world, speed and reliability. Fast upload and downloadiness right here in rural tranquility. Saturday's reason, is that a bull? Gigger clear, fast or broadband for rural Britain from only 19 pounds a month, season sees apply. 18 month contract prices may rise to ring contract. Check availability at gigger clear dot com. Now to Tucker, Tucker McNear, Swanson Carlson. Yeah, I think it's McNear or not McNar. Yeah, McNear. I believe. Yeah, man of the people, air to a, what kind of fortune did they have? A little land, and he was a rancher, his great, great, great, great, great grandfather. Also, Nelly Bulls is great, great, great, great, great, grandfather, oddly enough. Really? They're cousins? By marriage, I guess. The people don't know as Barry Weiss's wife. Yeah, by marriage. The Henry Miller was like the largest landowner in the United States in the 19th century. He basically owned a swath of land that went from the Mexican border up to Oregon. Yeah, that's where that's some of the money came from. I want to start with Tucker origin story stuff, which is relevant here at the Bullwork, because as I was reading your book, there's something I didn't know, or maybe I'd known and forgotten, which is that he interviewed with Bill Crystal. Mondays with Bill Crystal at the weekly standard, hoping to get a job, and he got rejected. And it was only on the second interview that he made a good impression. And I just, I feel like this is such a butterfly flapping in his wing's moment. If only Bill had stuck to his first instinct about Tucker, maybe we wouldn't be here right now, but I don't know. Talk to him. He would have gone back to Arkansas, eventually would have gone into corporate comms for Walmart or something. When the Arkansas Democrat was contracted, he would have had to do that. He came in, sort of had some positive wrecks, and just apparently blew that first interview. I mean, Crystal didn't remember a ton about how he blew it, but just that he blew it. He didn't have this story, as I just got story ideas. And then he locked out a guy who was kind of interning for Bill, Crystal and Bill Crystal's dad, that summer, I guess I was writing a book about Crystal's dad, had been like a good friend of Tucker's and kind of went to Bat for Tucker, and then Fred Barnes as well, his kids, their Sunday school teacher was Tucker's wife, Suzy, and they kind of went with the bat for him. And he was given a second interview, and I think he did better on that one. And the rest is history. Great, Fred Barnes is fault. That's perfect. We don't have any Fred Barnes issues at the ball. We can blame it on him. I kind of want to get fast forward to the part that matters about Tucker, because I think what he's doing now is a little bit more important than his, like it's interesting and fun fodder for people who want to read the book, his time with Rachel Maddow and stuff, but he's particularly relevant. And the moment, his new pivot, but I was kind of interested, particularly, in the way you wrote about the CNN crossfire era, where Tucker felt very, at least this is, I guess, we claim, so you say claims. Like, he didn't like having to put on the partisan jersey as much as he did. And I do feel like that there's something about that moment and kind of like our media complex that radicalized him a little bit away from his natural instinct of being more of like the kind of contrarian heterodox type person, not talk about that era. Well, I mean, I think his writing career, he sort of made his bones as a contrarian, his kind of his social life in Washington, he was a contrarian. I think people, I think liberals in Washington enjoyed having him around at dinner parties and other things because he was sort of this outrageous voice, and he would say something that they could sort of laugh and roll their eyes at. And he would trash Republican assumption, like he wrote the famous profile, it's really great. I read it a year ago about Bush. That was like pretty withering about George W. Bush. Yeah, I mean, he wrote a takedown of Grover Northwood too. He was great. And those were like gutsy pieces and not something that I think a lot of conservative journalists would have done because they didn't want to piss in the town. But it crossfire, his job was to represent the right, and essentially represent the Republican party. And in that debate format, he kind of had to toe a partisan line that I think was difficult for him. And it wasn't that difficult. Like he was caching to paychecks and he liked being on TV. But I think it was a real problem with the war in Iraq. And I think he had some private doubts about it. And he felt just constrained about saying them publicly. He felt like he couldn't both in the job he had to do on CNN, where it's at every night he's debating with Paul Legala and James Carville about whether he should go to war in Iraq. He kind of has to say we should because that's what the Bush administration is saying. And also it didn't help that Robert Novak was the other conservative who I think maybe my dint of seniority was allowed to kind of be a little bit more free and voicing his own doubts about that invasion. And this is interesting. They're like you said right, basically his agent CNN and the powers that be, like that was his issue. It's funny to think about Tucker now, but the concern about him as a news performer was that he wouldn't toe the party line. That's what they wanted for that show. Yeah, yeah. No, he was a good soldier. And I think to his credit, he voiced his opposition to the war much sooner than I think almost any other conservative funded who had supported it. I mean, within a year he was saying it was a mistake and he was embarrassed that he'd ever supported it. I mean, certainly recanted a lot earlier than Bill Crystal and other people at the standard did if they ever did. That was like a real inflection point for him in terms of the way he just thought ideologically. He had spent the first part of his career being very much in step with guys like Crystal and people at the standard and wanting to excommunicate Pat Buchanan from place society and the conservative movement. And then after Iraq, I think he saw that Buchanan had been right and he started to think, all right, well, what else might this guy have been right about? And he started to kind of shift his positions on immigration and other things. And then the John Stewart episode, I mean, this book is not like a biography Tucker per se, it's more his professional life to kind of tell this larger story, conservative media and conservative politics. But after the Stewart humiliation, it engendered some resentment in him towards his friends kind of in elite media circles, elite political circles, who he felt didn't really come to his aid the way he would have liked them to. And I think that resentment grew over the years as his own professional struggles increased and eventually it kind of gained full flower and you know, maggot and trance. The other part for that era that's interesting is you, like this clip goes around all the time, which is Tucker just witheringly taking down Bill O'Reilly for being a fake vanguard of the people. And it's like every critique he has of Bill O'Reilly like he is relevant to him now, like you know, where he basically talks about how he's trying to pretend like he's populist and eventually that the mask will fall. Like when people watch that, it does leave us with a feeling, like I don't really know Tucker, like some of these other people, and I've met him, but I don't really know him, that he's just like a really good performer, like that he was able to deliver that and he's able to deliver the, you know, take down of the populist right affect with just as much a palm and passion as he's able to deliver the populist right. Why? But don't you think his personas different than O'Reilly's? I mean, I feel like O'Reilly definitely pretended to be the guy at the bar, right? Whereas Tucker, I think, is more of like a class trader, like that's the role that he's playing. You know, he still like has, you know, the reptiles and the Rolex and, you know, I mean, like he drinks a bottle of peria, literally like it's a branded bottle of peria. And I think it's, it's a lot like Trump being able to say, you know, I've been in the rooms with, you know, those people and I know what they say about you. And I'm here to tell you everything that you think about them is true because I saw it with my own eyes. And I think that gives him, you know, some credibility. Like he's not pretending to be an every man. I mean, it's still a popular stick, but it's, in some ways, I think it's more authentic to who he is. And I think that actually gives him some credibility with his audience. When the mass finally slipped on O'Reilly, people were just like, yeah, that guy's full of it. I'm with Tucker. I don't know if his audience necessarily feels that way. I guess that's true. And it's different in some ways than others. I guess the point is that like on policy matters, he was a very effective advocate against, you know, the Buchananite wing before he came a very effective advocate for it. And it's ways in which I, this is the other thing that you talked about in the very relevant right now. It's the way in which he's similar to JD Vance. Yeah. And I think I could, some level, there's this question, you know, of, does it matter whether this has been an authentic switch or not, maybe not, but I could some level it matters a little bit, I guess, whether he and JD did this authentically or whether they were able to, you know, kind of ride a pop to a wave. I think it's a mix. I mean, I think there are, you know, obviously cynical positioning decisions that both made, you know, when they sort of recognize that this is where things were headed and the way the wind was blowing. At the same time, I do think that there was entment towards, you know, certain parts of society, certain people, you know, David Frum, or whatever. I think that's real. There's like a deep seated resentment they both have towards just looking out at the world. You know, they're just looking out at all the people in there and all of the indignities that they've suffered and all of the people causing pain. And they're like, you know, it's that David Frum, really is the one. Bill Friston, David Frum, those are the two, which is, yeah, maybe last Christal for JD, but certainly for talker. Yeah, someone once said to me that like, the two people who screwed up Tucker most are his mother and Bill Christal. So I mean, far be it for me to come to Bill's defense, he's able to do it. Oh, this wasn't a, yeah, I know. I know it's not an attack bill. I guess this is my big old story. This question though goes to, I think, an important underlying kind of fact about Tucker and about JD, which is about how authentic this is, which is, okay, they've suffered a lot of indignities over the years. And you wrote very interestingly about how Tucker was jealous and hated Steve Bannon, because of Frank Barnes rise, went back when he was running the daily caller and they were competitive. And he was, I guess he had asked his staffers to try to prove that just Steve Bannon was full of shit. And I'm gonna do investigations into Steve Bannon. And these days, Tucker's resentment towards Steve Bannon isn't driving him, because that would be harmful to the position of self that way. It's a little bit revealing that it's the mother that abandoned him. And I built crystals much safer person to be resentful towards. Then other people that he could be resentful towards the fox leadership, Bannon, right? And who, for whom he still needs to appeal to those crowds. Well, Bill kind of serves as like this skeleton key that he's used to kind of retcon his entire career and trajectory and kind of change. Because I mean, the story that he tells, I think other people, but also himself, is that he was this talented young naive kid who the ill crystal and the Neocons got their hooks into him when he was young and tricked him into supporting a war in Iraq and tricked him into supporting open borders and tricked him into supporting free trade. And all these other things that harmed white working class Americans. And eventually the scales fell from his eyes and now what he's doing is penance to make up for being used by the Neocons. And like I think that story is bullshit. And so that also explains the apology for Putin and the Mullahs. Exactly. No, you can just, the Neocons are wrong. Then the Mullahs have to be right, I think. There he is, there he is. I mean, there is something to that though. Just, is there one person close to him who is I think troubled by the anti-Semitism said. And he wasn't like excusing it, but he was, I think he was trying to explain it. And he said, you know, it really did start, he thought, because like basically all the people who were opposed to him were pro-Israel. And he decided to just kind of like go after Israel because there's a way to stick it to them. And you know, it's obviously turned into something else. And this person I think recognizes that. But that's what this person thought the origins of it were. And you know, I don't know. He has a desire to stick it to his enemies, right? And find the things that will, you know, piss them off. And oftentimes that's a lip piss. But I think there's something there too with some of these conservatives as well. The Israel stuff has really become, it feels like he's not capable of getting to an episode without talking about the evil Jews. I hate to talk about Israel. Yeah, he says every time. You know, you look at the transcripts of the episodes and like bring up Israel and, you know, the Likudniks and the Masad and like all the time, apropos, nothing. Yeah. There has to be more to it than that he's mad at his former staff colleagues from 20 years ago. Yeah, clearly it's bigger than that. And his own, I think, increase in kind of religiosity, I think has something to do with it as well. And also, you know, I think he's made the calculus that that's where the energy is on the right these days. And that's where things are headed. And you know, he has like a really, really, really finely tuned political and professional radar. And we've seen that, like, good examples of that in the past, you know, seven or eight years. And I don't know if his radar is wrong this time or not, but he certainly seems to think that that's where things are headed. And in order to be successful in, you know, the spaces that he operates now both politically and in media, like he can't afford to have those people, you know, not on his side. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify, especially designed to help you start, run, and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there. Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups, online, in person, and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. I want to ask about two other potential skilting keys. Maybe it wasn't his mother and Bill. Maybe there are other people that have influenced him. His brother Buckley, Carlson, do you follow Buckley on social media lately? Have you monitored his tweets? Buckley's emergence as a social media star is that has been a surprise. Yeah, put a pin in Buckley for a second. And then also what you wrote about in the book at length was when he was trying to outflank Steve Bannon at daily color, and he hired a lot of young white nationalists. And I would say this in like the broad, like we're smearing people and calling everyone white supremacists. I, I, I, I, he hired literally a valid white nationalists who are on white nationalist listservs who now after they left working for Tucker, some of them I still follow on social media see what they're up to, like their bios still, basically declare themselves as white nationalists. And that's the right you, right? Yeah, they're a great career was one of them. But yeah, so, so it's a good thing. It's just seem like he might have been influenced by them. Eki hires all these young white nationalists at the daily color, and that happens right around the same time he starts doing his populist nationalist anti-Semitic stuff. Yeah, some of the anti-Semitic stuff, I mean, I feel like that's really come into focus in the past two or three years before, I mean, before the caller, and you know, he, and he wasn't saying it. And he was a great replacement. Like, great replacement stuff. Yes. Yeah, kind of like he was a bottom up thing. Like, I don't know if that given Tucker said, it came out of his flunky heads and then he got exactly. No, well, I mean, what Tucker did, especially if Fox, was he would take these sort of, you know, stories in the news or theories or ideas that existed just on the far right fringe, usually somewhere on the internet. And he would smuggle it on to prime time on Fox. And I think great replacement is probably the best example of that. I mean, and he brought that to, you know, the attention of just like mainstream conservatives and he presented it in such a way that, you know, it might not have been palatable to you or me, but I think to a Fox viewer, it was probably more palatable than they, if they had read it in its original form and, you know, the Scott Greer form or whatever. You Tucker was like this conveyor belt for this stuff. And, you know, he continues to do that to this day. And I think that he's successful at it because, you know, unlike Scott Greer, or unlike Alex Jones is like a better example. Like, Alex Jones says, loony shit, right? But like, you know, Alex Jones is a loon. So you're gonna kind of, you know, take what he says with the grain of salt. Like Tucker, I think still presents like, as a fairly credible figure. And so when he says it, it has a credibility, maybe that it, you know, it wouldn't have with most of the people who traditionally deliver that message. He's good at doing a stick, which like is basically like, how could you disagree with this? Oh, yeah. You know, like he takes radical things and then tries to reframe them, to make them in a way that it feels like you'd have to be insane to disagree with them. You know, and a lot of crazy people, they'd like the crazy part. And so they emphasize the more extreme elements of it. And I do think that's a pernicious part of Tucker's program. Definitely. And like the, the January 6 documentary and all of that, I mean, it was just, you watch that, you know, compare it to the some of the 9-11 conspiracy theory documentaries and like it's just, it's just night day. Yeah. He's also known 9-11 conspiracy theorists too. So, are there anybody doesn't have yet? I don't know about Freemason, so much of where he is. Flat Earth. That's a good question. Him and Kyrie are going to be a hell of a back court. I want to go back to Buckley for a second, because I don't know, maybe this is just me. Yeah. As you said, he's emerged. I don't know when it started or when he started. It's kind of one of these things where maybe he's been posting since 2011 and I just noticed it two months ago, or maybe he just started posting it two months ago. I'm not sure this is, this is kind of what happens. It's the social media age, but his brother starts coming into my field of vision and his poster and he sounds indistinguishable from Alex Jones, much more unapologetic about his extreme views. And Tucker calls him his best friend. It also feels like this happens to people. Tucker is, where is he? He's either in rural Maine or in South Florida. And he's a little bit isolated and that his crazy conspiracy-mongering brother is influencing now. Does that crazy thing to find out? I mean, he is a best friend. They are incredibly close. They're before his father died last year. Just the three of them are pretty inseparable. I did a Don Jr. profile back in the first Trump administration and talking to sort of Don Jr.'s brain trust. And I remember they were telling me that when he would send out tweets, they would workshop the tweets and go over them. And if there was a tweet that they deemed, it was too hot, it was too much, they didn't want to come in from Don Jr.'s account. They would have someone else to, or are there shorts that would usually tweet it? Like I have wondered, is Buckley kind of tweeting the stuff that Tucker himself can't say? Or he feels like it's too hot for him to say? I have no idea if that's the case. I did have that thought. Because he's just sort of like a more amped up version of Tucker, I feel like he's just a less polite version of Tucker. He's kind of like Tucker's it. I guess this is my point to this fundamental question, right? Oh, okay, maybe it isn't fake actually. I think his brother seems legitimately insane. And they're their best friends. And so it's kind of like somebody whose wife is, like, extreme or husband, right? Whose spouse like influences their politics? I don't know. Yeah. I'm just working through ideas. Look, I mean, the question of whether Tucker, like believes what he says, I mean, I don't know. I feel like it's kind of irrelevant. Like he's saying it and people believe that he believes it and that's what matters. I mean, I do think that if he did start off saying this stuff cynically, it's only human nature that having been rewarded for saying these things and sort of living in this bubble of affirmation, which I think is something that happens certainly in television. And now I think has happened in his own life because you're right, he is. He's on an island in Maine and he's on an island in Florida. As his world is really constricted, you know, I think when he was still living in Washington and, you know, living elders with like Hunter Biden or ever maybe he had a broader social circle. Well, I guess this is to the point, right? Like, I look, I'm a social creature and some always looking for social answers to all this stuff. And like, I think that it's actually good to see other humans, it's important to like be with them face to face, you know, it softens you in various ways. And he was that in DC. Like he was a party goer. And now it's like, does he even have friends anymore? And now when you're writing, you're writing about that one time where he bought a thing in an auction of dinner with Bill Ayers or something. And, you know, he invited Andrew Wright, Bart is dead now, his brother, Matt Laybash, who writes a sub-stack that is great to feel should read. It's very bull-working, unclear to me the extent of their friendship at this point, but certainly, possibly because of what it once was. And then a staffer. And he's in rural Maine in this house. Like, does he talk to anybody besides his life and brother? I think he does, yeah, I think he, but I think it's a completely different set of people. I mean, I think he used to talk to, you know, Matt Laybash, he used to talk to Bill Crystal, and stuff to, you know, those folks at Jake Tapper. I mean, now I think he talks to Don Jr. and, you know, the O'vonne and, you know, the Nell Khois. I mean, he can't possibly be friends with Don Jr. He is, he is, he is, he is, he is, he is, he is, he is bright-farting smarts. He might have been a bad person, but he is smart. Matt is, Matt Laybash is smart. He is genuinely, he is crazy, but I can't read. Don Jr. is, he is friends with Don Jr. Come on. He is. What would they talk about? Don Jr. is a moron. How do they possibly talk about it? They talk about hunting and, you know, politics. Hunting? Yeah. I mean, they're like legit friends, and you know, and he's legit friends with JD Vance. I mean, that, like, I think that's like a real relationship. Like, and he's obviously an incredibly close, political relationship, but I think there's, there's a personal relationship there in a way that he doesn't have with Trump. I mean, I think he likes Trump a lot and Trump likes him, and I think they sort of get along because, you know, they're, they're fun together, but I think Vance, like that's a, that's a real friendship, at least at the moment. You look concerned. It's not concerned. There's just a, I think it's not unreasonable to think that Tucker is sociopath. And like, you know, how else could you live through all the stuff that these aren't possibly real friendships? And I just, I find it hard to believe that he has a real friendship with Don Jr. I mean, Don Jr. has like forest-comple level IQ. And Tucker is like a smart, learned person. And I guess maybe they could talk about hunting, but the JD Vance one is obviously more important. You know, his son works for JD. The story is not apocryphal that he convinced Trump that the deep state would kill him. If Trump picked someone besides JD, is that a real story? I don't know if he convinced Trump that the deep state would kill him, but that is, you know, I've been told that's what he said, that that was one of the arguments he made to Trump. I have no idea if that was, you know, Trump believed it or not, but that was argument that Tucker made. Yeah, I mean, he made other arguments in paper, Vance too, but that was, that was one of them. That if you picked a neocon, they would bump you off. And he's a pretty key player in getting JD Vance picked. And JD obviously is, you know, the person that would move the party even more down a populist nationalist direction. And in some ways, more ideologically rigid one than Trump is more malleable, let's say. Yeah. Marine consistent. If anything else. Yeah, inconsistent. Tell us a little bit about you, what you think the nature of that relationship is. And how much is it political? How much are they plotting together? Is I understand like the origin story is they were both at this, you know, banker's conference and kind of bonded about how much they hated everybody there. You know, so it's like it's his mom, Bill first, all Jamie Diamond, I guess, with the, you know, and this was back in the sort of the immediate aftermath of Hillbilly, LG when, you know, when Vance was kind of the shiny new toy for these folks, because you know, he was the Trump whisperer. You could explain to them what had happened. Yeah. JD Vance really hates the bankers. You know, he was just traveling around with Peter Teele, trying to raise money as a Vsiga. You went to Yale. He was the Tiger Mums, mentee. He was at Netflix. He's hanging out with the runners. He's going to conferences around the world. He really hates the elite. JD, it's very, it's a genuine hate. That's not fake. You know, look, he clearly turned against them. They share, they share that. Turned against what they're mean to them. That's why. Or, yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if the standard had an higher Tucker. And if the Netflix movie had done better, right? Maybe. Yeah, things would be different these days. I don't know. I mean, I think what's important is that Tucker, you know, they became friends and Tucker became like a really important sounding board for Vance and endorser. I mean, I don't think Vance would have won that Ohio Senate race without Tucker. I mean, Tucker had him on during that primary. I think like, like 16 times on his Fox show, which, you know, is a ton. And especially, you know, among Ohio Republican primary voters, like, I think Tucker Carlson's night was the impact to be the top rated show for them more than local news. And then just as importantly, he and his good friend on junior were in Trump's ear about endorsing JD in the Ohio Senate primary. And I don't think JD Vance wins that primary without Trump's endorsement at the last minute. And Tucker was a really important factor in that. So I think JD Vance owes his political career to Tucker as much as to Peter Teal or anyone. And Vance really, like, he modeled himself on Tucker, both the issues that he highlighted and even just his rhetoric. Like, remember that ad, you know, you're gonna call me a racist for saying that that was like straight out of like a Tucker Carlson monologue. I mean, he wasn't quite as bad as Blake Masters was and just like totally like ripping like the Tucker script. But it was, I think a lot of his presentation owed to the way Tucker kind of handled himself on that Fox show. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify, especially designed to help you start, run, and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there. Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups, online, in person, and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. I mean, that is a little posse then, right? JD and Tucker and Don Jr. trying to figure out how to carry the torch for this assuming that Don Sr. wants to leave. And like, what does that, what does that look like? Do you think? I mean, right now I feel like Tucker has a pretty nice situation and that the guy who's the Arab parent is in total lockstep with him in terms of what he believes. And I think Tucker, I don't think Tucker is like content to just be a podcaster. I think he wants, I think he has a vision for what he wants the country to be. And he has an ideological project at this point that I think he wants to see realized. And I think JD Vance would be the vehicle for that. I mean, I think there could be two things that could happen. One, Vance could start to chart a different path and that would cause Tucker to be against him. I think the second thing that could happen is Tucker could conclude that Vance just doesn't have it, doesn't have what it takes to actually get elected president. And that Tucker already defined another vehicle for his project. And people, a lot of you will ask me, you think you'd ever run for president. And I don't think like him running, I don't think he's like Bill Clinton. I don't think he has any sort of desire to be president, I don't even know if he particularly wants to be president. But I do think he wants to do something. And if he had his brothers, he could sort of do it through someone. But if he ultimately concludes that there's no one else who can do it but him, I don't think it's all that far fetch that he would eventually run for something. What degree is that ideological project in alignment with going back to these questions about the great replacement theory? What degree do you think Tucker's ideological project is alignment with what Nick Fuentes wants and what a lot of these other young, great, per white identitarians want? I think it's a form of it. I think Tucker wants to go back to the 1950s, which is before he was born. But as he tells it, that's when everything was great. I think go back to that in terms of the racial makeup of the country, go back to that in terms of gender roles, go back to that in terms of sexual politics, go back to that in terms of economic policy. I think he wants to wind things back. And some of that stuff is, I mean, I don't know. I think his critique of consumer capitalism is it's compelling. I mean, he has smart things to say that are not, if you can cleave them off from all this other stuff or not necessarily racist or horrible, but wrap them all together in an undolumn, I think that's what you get. Well, it's hard to cleave it off. And this is sort of like how communism, real communism has never been tried. That's like boring, right wing populism, where we're just going to give the poor working class folks a little bit more healthcare. And we're going to have more thoughtful trade policies. Like it's not a popular program. Like the racist stuff is an essential ingredient to the program. I would think in the conspiracy mode. I agree with you. Yeah, it's a sort of national conservatism without the end. Or in cash also has a podcast, for example. It's not, I don't know if you look to the rankings lately. It's my next book, but like Tucker's is, yeah, yeah, Tucker's is significantly higher in the rankings because he doesn't do white paper stuff. He does conspiracy mode. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that makes him like an interesting figure and kind of compelling figure is he does merge it. It's, he's like, he was like the only fox host that like, Ross Dal that could write a column about, right? Multiple times. Like he said, interesting enough stuff, you know, independent of the racist stuff and the anti-Semitic stuff that you could actually, you know, he does engage in ideas. He's interesting. And so this is the thing to say about Tucker. I obviously find him just unbelievably repulsive in every way, but like the one thing that I would say about him that is, I think, the key to his potential success and influence. And so it's why it's kind of dangerous from my vantage point. Is like, I would go to those TPO say conferences and have to sit there and listen to speech after speech with everybody doing, you know, mag a slop, you know, and just kind of saying the same version of the same thing ever the talking point or the moment was whatever the hot grievance of the moment was, everybody did it. And then Tucker would go up there and, you know, kind of weave a yarn where it would be like, sometimes it'd be sloped and then he'd talk about, you know, the way that our modern architecture depresses the soul and then like you do funny jokes about, you know, and I found myself sitting there and not compelled by his arguments in any way, but like interested, engaged, like my brains turned on a little bit and there's something to that. Yeah, no, I mean, the genesis of this book was, you know, I was talking to my agent, this was like after January 6th and we were talking about a completely different book about, you know, the Civil War that was coming within the Republican Party because Donald Trump was going to be gone and who was going to inherit his supporters and I was sort of arguing that, you know, and arguing that I wouldn't want to do this book, like, you know, that Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz and Tom Kotten, all these guys are going to stake out these positions to try to, you know, get Trump supporters and like, none of them like have the charisma or the entertainment chops to ever appeal to those people. And just as like an off-handed comment, I was like, you know, the only person you really could do that is like Tucker Carlson. And that was, that was how the book came to be basically. But yeah, Tucker, you can't underestimate his, his, just showmanship. You do find yourself watching him and listening to him in a way that you don't list so many of these other people and then it's similar to Trump. I mean, you know, he holds your attention. It's hard to imagine anyone on the stage these days keeping people, you know, in a hockey arena for two hours for some meandering speech, you know, the way Trump does other than Tucker. Tucker seems the only person who could actually do that. All right. So you've had to consume a lot of Tucker. So do you have any, are there any like random little bugabooes people who don't, who only see him through clips and he random little things to, we should keep our eye on. Tucker out takes. No. I like sort of figuring out like how many, I guess he doesn't use Zins anymore. He has his own, you know, product. Now I like figuring out how many he's, you know, packing during certain shows. That's always entertaining. Yeah. Yeah. So do you see the Betty did about how Zins, he's suffering Zins because Gays were doing Zins. They're putting it up their bodies. Zins are gay. I know, I did not know. I read that article in Men's Health. I had no idea about it. People are putting them up their bodies and he wants something stronger. Did you know about that? Not a lot of Zinning at Oz in New Orleans, but Tucker is obviously the arbiter of masculinity. In the country. That was a new theory for me, the gays and stuff. Right. And he thought more of his mouth. That's Jason Zangely. Sorry. He had to suffer through a lot of hours of Tucker in order to get this book hated by all the right people. Tucker Carlson, the unraveling of the conservative mind. So go check it out. He did the works you don't have to. I appreciate it, brother, and I hope talking again soon. All right. Thanks, thanks for seeing it. All right. We're Tim Walsh and Jason Zangely. We have some great guests coming this week. And we're going to be with you a minute to minute as new information comes out about the fallout in Minnesota. So look forward to seeing you back here tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Sometimes it's known in April. Sometimes I feel so. So bad. The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.