Super Bowl LX Reaction with Bill Barnwell

From 30 for 30 podcasts. Brian Pata, senior defensive lineman from Miami, gunned down. The key to this case, it's Brian. An hour before he died, he was on the phone arguing what's about. This might be a hit. You want the truth. They just want a conviction. They're placing the arrest. We had a killer amongst us. Murder at the U. Listen now. Off top, what is the longest held individual Super Bowl record? Play music. This is the Dominique Foxworth Show. Welcome to the Dominique Foxworth Show presented by Allstate. Throw your hands up. I am joined, as I always am, on Sunday nights live, this time from L.A., by Charlie Kravitz and the king of the bilk, the great Bill Barnwell. They are here and ready to break down an awesome experience, a defense-first Super Bowl. It was great. Right, Bill? Wait, are we not going to guess that you're off top? Yeah, I was buying you some time to think about it. Oh, I got it. It's easy. I know the answer, too. I know the answer. The answer's really easy. Most passing yards by a dude named Bart in the Super Bowl because Bart Starr is Super Bowl I. I don't think that counts. All right, Charlie, what do you got? Timmy Smith, 204 yards, 38-year-old record. Rushing yards. Oh, yep, yep, yep. That's a Washington football team record. Yeah, Charlie. I knew that one off the top of my head. How good were you feeling about Jaden Daniels? Oh, we were watching the Super Bowl in a room with many more important people. It was a room that I should not have been in. Schefter, Rex Ryan, Teddy Bruschi. I couldn't say it out loud. Mike Greenberg. So I just texted Dominique. thank god we have jayden daniels as our quarterback in washington which is what no one came to the stream to hear about because what happened in this game was um total domination we had drake may put the ball on the ground a couple times again but that that was largely because of will campbell and the left side of the patriots offensive line um not protecting him where do you want to start with this game do you want to start with the positives and the negatives because we also saw historic seahawks defense that did things in a very different way i think we start with the positives like I love this Seahawks defense um all year long um it's really high on them before the season started and they lived up to the hype and played incredibly well through the course of the playoffs I think we'll get to that Drake May stuff but I think take a second to love the DBs like it feels like as good as they are up front the cornerbacks and safeties and nickels for this Seahawks team or a big story in this game Witherspoon and they took that one sack back That other sack that ended up we thought was a fumble, a sack fumble touchdown. They ended up saying that it was a hit by Witherspoon that was an interception for a touchdown. But anyway, the secondary was so good. They tried to get Eamon Worry, which is a rookie player, playing the nickel. They tried so many times to attack him with play action, and he didn't fall for it. He's been pretty good with that throughout the entire playoffs, which is not something you expect for a rookie. But this defense, particularly in the secondary, I was really impressed and loved watching them succeed. And now we're watching them celebrate, which is kind of cool. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot easier to not fall for the play action when the dudes in the front four are slaughtering the opposing team. Like, it's just, life is a lot less stressful when you are killing them in four. We saw Yvonne Witherspoon have a bunch of pressures in this game. It was really, I think, one of the stories of the game, one of the wrinkles the Patriots never accounted for was Witherspoon. I don't think he'd gone on a single blitz all postseason this year. They rushed him a lot more last year, but not a single blitz or pass rush this entire postseason before this game. And they bring him like five times in this game, bring him on the first third down of the game. And you saw Michael Donald was really able to predict what the Patriots needed to do. They were scared about the left side of their offensive line, which played awful anyway. Especially Will Campbell, their left tackle, really struggled. They were going to slide their protections that way, which meant you were going to have Witherspoon coming on the backside, probably without anyone to block him. and the Patriots didn't really ever have a consistent answer for that pass rush. You brought up Will Campbell. We were in the room again watching the game with a bunch of people who really know and love football, and we all were throwing out all these ideas, I think, for things that they could do to fix it strategically. But I guess we have to get to prayer. Prayer would be nice. We have to get to the other side of this equation. as great as this Seahawks defense was, I think the Patriots offense has been bad throughout the course of this entire playoffs. Right. And in this game, I just was so surprised that it felt like they had no answers, almost like they were surprised that they couldn't protect, and they had no other answers, and they were still kind of trying to hide Drake May in a game until they got to the end where they just kind of let him air it out. But it didn't feel like they had. And maybe it's, again, it might be to the, or not again, it might be to the point that we've been making all playoff long that this team is kind of snuck in the back door, and this is normally not a team that'll be in a moment like this. Yeah, and like this, Shio Kapadia tweeted this out. In the last 10 years, there have been 33 QBs to make at least three starts in a given postseason. Drake Mays' playoff performance among that sample ranks last in EPA per pass play. That's tough. go ahead Bill this reminds me so much of last year's Chiefs though right where we were talking about that during the game too this game specifically reminded us of that yeah we can do right like all year we were sitting here saying oh this is the weakness someone's going to exploit it Chiefs keep managing the fine ways to avoid it but eventually someone's going to get him and then someone got the Patriots in this game Drake May was not able to produce the explosives we saw earlier in the postseason where even when they were turning the ball over quite a bit they were kind of offsetting that by hitting explosive plays i think 11 of them per game in their prior games in the postseason they're sorry seven sorry 22 and three games um they did not get many in this game so the one they got were wet way after the fact when they were trailing in the third and fourth quarter of this game and so it just felt like the things that drake may was able to do in the past the scrambles for big plays the occasional explosive down either sideline if the pitchers just kind of figured okay we just keep the game close eventually one of those are going to come through and they got one drive with them and that was it you think about text adam schefter he'll retweet our our link and get this live show really popping yeah yeah all right talk about football i'm gonna start here's what i'll say is um on the positive let's talk about both quarterbacks performance bill so if i had said to you if you're looking at the as a positive side for the seahawks that the the seahawks would get a game with darnold not turning the ball over but they're gonna get almost nothing from jackson smith and jigba and your office is gonna essentially run through kenneth walker and cooper cup in the middle of the field would you have thought that that was a winning formula for them because the darnold no turnover seemed like the missing, like the guarantee for a good Seahawks win, but still, they basically shut down the opposite player of the year. He left with a concussion for part of the game or concussion symptoms for part of that game. Did that surprise you? Yes and no. I mean, the classic Belichick thing, right, is take away the opposing team's top player with your coverage. To be fair, JSN could have had a massive game here. They had that scramble early on where he was open for a long touchdown. Sam Darnold overthrew him. He got open for a touchdown before halftime. Throw was late and Christian Gonzalez broke it up. You know, this could have been a hundred and a touchdown easily for JSN. It just narrow misses on the offensive side of the ball. But like this was always going to be a game when the Seahawks are going to win with their defense. Their offense ran the ball really effectively in this game. Kenneth Walker was awesome as a runner in this game. But like, I don't think this sort of defensive performance from the Seahawks was anything that couldn't have been anticipated. I think I had them allowing 10 points in my preview. So 13, not really that crazy given the circumstances. Forcing two takeaways, not crazy given the circumstances. Like this is the same thing that the teams all year. They scare you or they dare you, I should say, into running on early downs against nickel coverage or nickel packages and light boxes. they stop you and then they terrify your quarterback on third down that's what they've done all season they just did it here against a Patriots team that wasn't able to pass protect I do love that this it's felt like a real big defensive year and I love that the Super Bowl was won by a dominant defense I know that this game I can't pretend I was trying through the whole first half to pretend like this game was super interesting and super awesome because the defense was so good and parts of it were cool but like you need some sort of fight back from other side and even as good as the seahawks defense was you couldn't even hang your hat on much they did offensively with exception of like kenneth walker's run game was pretty impressive i thought darnold was like off for much of this game it set up for an opportunity for um questy adolfo minsa to have his final his final celebration from outside of the vikings building because darnold missed shots he he it felt like that first first couple drives he threw behind receivers and he was throwing risky passes like there could be interceptions this could be a problem this is and we kept talking like at some point he's gonna he's gonna have to pay for taking these for throwing these passes like this but they still just rode kenneth walker he made it happen the patriots kept getting this close to getting a turnover never got it done but there was like a stretch for the patriots offense of three and out after three and out after three and out and that that to me like the offense in their unwillingness to go forward on that fourth down around midfield it just felt like they had they had no answers which was so shocking considering how they've been throughout these playoffs they had nothing schemed up that looks like it was going to work well you know dominique i talk a lot about confidence and momentum and metal and the emotions on this show and that's what it felt like was happening here the patriots lost all faith in drake may and their offense for most of this game they were running repeatedly on early downs they They were not putting the ball in his hands. And that sequence, it just stood out to me so much, right? So they get nine yards on the first down. Second and one, they get stuffed. Third and one, you have to know what you're doing on fourth down based on what you do on third down. They take a shot on third down. Drake May misses an open receiver on third down. You punt on fourth and one in the second half? Like, not in terrible field position? It felt like it was 2005 out there. I'm not surprised. or Ricky Byrne, and it might have been 1998 out there on the field. If you're going to punt on fourth and one, you have to run on third and one. You cannot throw the ball deep on third and one unless you are confident you are willing to take a shot running the football on fourth and one. That felt like not giving up, but it just felt like there was no sort of like confidence in what their game plan was going to be from down to down, sequence to sequence for the Patriots. Oh, we're just looking up now. It looks like Kenneth Walker won Super Bowl MVP, which I think that means we should put our hands up. Oh, throw him up. it's time for our good hands plays presented by all state you're in good hands with kenneth walker we had doubts about the seahawks running game after zach charbonnet went down with an injury and kenneth walker had um borderline historic playoff performance over three weeks he was able to carry the the running game for the seahawks offense and um i don't know if you felt this bill but watching the first half it felt like their entire offense was predicated on the fact that kenneth walker was their only way to get to move the ball he got the edge uh a couple times when things weren't totally blocked up with that outside zone and had almost 100 yards in the first half. I think Dominique had that off top about Timmy Smith because there was a chance that Kenneth Walker could approach that record over the course of that game. So you're in good hands with Kenneth Walker. And I want to know from you and your ilk, Bill, Kenneth Walker is a free agent. Do you feel vindicated now that running backs do not matter? I was so confused you set me up for Kenneth Walker being positive I wanted you to admit that you were wrong wait why am I wrong did I say something mean about Kenneth Walker here I'm confused Kenneth Walker was awesome in this game and I think you saw him getting consistently more than what was blocked there were times the Patriots had a lot of guys in the backfield in this game they ran a lot of duo in this game and there was a lot of times where Kenneth Walker was stalling waiting for his time to come through, a little bit of Frogger, playing games with the linebacker, all of which I think is a testament to how the game's evolved. And you sort of saw in this game the Patriots have the counter for the zone stuff where they started playing that sixth-man front, and you saw the Seahawks had the immediate counter back on the next drive. They were in pin-pull on the first play of the next drive and got 14 yards. It felt like the last six years of football in a vacuum based on the Patriots and how they played against the Rams in the Super Bowl a few years ago. but it did feel like Kenneth Walker was not just getting what was blocked, not just getting what, you know, was zoned up for him, skin up for him. And that matters. It was weird because Chris Collinsworth said he wasn't a good blocker and wasn't a good receiver. That was crazy. That was crazy. Like, like the meanest thing I've ever heard Chris Collinsworth say about an NFL player here. While he's playing well, while he was carrying their offense. And he dropped the pads and I know he can't block or catch. He's like, he's soon to be Super Bowl MVP, but he can only do one thing. He then compared him to Le'Veon Bell and said it was the most patient run he had ever seen in his life. It was a pretty good run. It was a great run. It was amazing in that game. When Le'Veon Bell left in free agency and signed with another team, you know how well it went for Le'Veon Bell on that team. All right, so Bill, you couldn't help but take your running back hate victory lap. The bilk is always going to hate on a running back. I'm just being honest here. I think Kenneth Walker is a good player. He's going to go as far as the explosives go. He was very explosive in this game. And I think there's going to be a lot of teams who say, hey, we need a guy who can make a 20 yard game. This was a game that came down to the explosives. Like that was the thing I put in my preview. And I felt like it really came down to just the Seahawks not able to consistently move the ball. They weren't getting like steady first down after first down. Patriots weren't getting anything. But the reason the Seahawks were able to get in field goal range was because of Kenneth Walker and because of Michael Dixon, who was the real MVP of this game. If they had given Michael Dixon MVP, how would you have felt about it? I've been infuriated. What about Jason Myers? Infuriated. Devin Witherspoon. Oh, I'd be turned on. Jason Myers, Michael Dixon. This was the Bat Boot Night Super Bowl. I guess if a kicker winning the MVP, if you hit a game winner from an unreasonable distance, that's fine. And if the game is close, I guess, and you win by all field goals, then possibly. But I can't have a football game. And punter it almost impossible It almost impossible for punter to win the MVP You have to get like 10 coffin corners in a game Yeah So I kind of want to zoom out because it really tough to just break down like the nitty gritty of this game. It felt like some of the text I got. Can I take a break before you do that? Did we discuss the Will Campbell to an appropriate degree? Because I feel like that's going to be a big story out of this season. You got beaten like a rented mule. And for this team, the Patriots, who are going to be, I assume, going to be considered one of the competitors for years to come. That situation. You think they're definitely going to leave the Super Bowl and be viewed as a competitor for years to come? I guess not. One of the hot teams going into the offseason? I think that I feel worse about the entire program after their playoff run, from quarterback to all those guys, despite making the Super Bowl, because of the circumstances around them. They still have Mike Vrabel. They still have Drake May. they still are a solid foundation i recognize that all of the their they had their easiest schedule and they dominated in that i get it and then their super bowl run was uniquely um dog shit that's the word i was looking for but they i still think right i mean bill am i wrong i still think that we're gonna assume that they're a playoff team a real competitor depending on what they do this offseason right i yes i mean charlie you're saying you feel worse about them on the whole from where they're just platform yeah i think i i left this postseason thinking there between the fifth and eighth best team in the afc you don't feel like i i actually i i think i don't feel as much worse as he does but i feel like if they would have lost to one of these teams or if they would have lost to maybe the bills or something like that i would have been like oh like or the Jaguars or somebody or the Chiefs even the Chiefs given that they were rough this year had they made it like as somebody in that situation like the Chargers no you can't lose to the Chargers if they'd have lost to um yeah they'd have lost to the Texans with um CJ Stroud playing a better game like I would have been like yeah I feel good about him I don't feel good about them because their offense was bad in every single playoff game their offense was bad their defense was great against a lot of really bad offense things i feel good about christian gonzalez milton williams right mike frable right it's another guy yeah it's another guy i'm i'm i'm gonna do a normal rockwell meme i'm gonna say going to the super bowl is good it's not bad to go to the super bowl even if you beat like a bunch of compromised teams like the same criticisms you could have laid out about the Patriots, you could have laid out after the regular season. I can see you saying, well, we still have the same questions, but their defense played great for three weeks. I'm not going to sit here and say that they were bad. They didn't play that bad in this game, frankly, against the Seahawks. The defense played well. The Seahawks had a ton of scoring in this game. They had one touchdown on offense the entire game. They did not cost the Patriots this game at all. No, the The Patriots defense was great. And you moved the goalposts on us, though. I said it the whole team. The point that Charlie made that I agreed with, but not to the degree that Charlie said it, is that I feel worse about this team than I did at the end of the year. They were the fifth to eighth best team in the AFC. I am saying that is an actively wrong opinion. Stand by. This show is going nowhere right now. We're having a struggle and struggling to talk about it. Maybe third to sixth. I'll upgrade third to sixth. Wow. I'm sorry. You were taking us somewhere else, Charlie. I took a Will Campbell detour. I want to ask you, Charlie, who are the teams you're putting ahead of the Patriots for the Super Bowl next year coming out of the AFC? Out of the AFC? Yeah, out of the AFC. Teams that I would trust to be better than them next year. Yes. Buffalo? Denver? Buffalo, who just actively fired their head coach and appears to be a franchise in revolt. Denver, who have a quarterback You ask the man a question and then you go steamroll and we try to give you the answer Buffalo, Denver I am a good steamroll, I just watch a steamroll for 60 minutes Baltimore? Baltimore, Denver, Baltimore Baltimore, come on, what are we doing here? I'm on Team Charlie on this one I'm on Team Charlie on this one and then I do I say Jacksonville? No, just do that keep it right there, don't get crazy no no look it's not it's just bill i'm sure that you can beep boop bop give us some numbers for why these things are important but like what we saw was coming into this postseason someone who was a historically accurate quarterback in his second year who had taken this leap and what he was was someone who was analytically it seemed like perfect he can run he was he was the most accurate deep passer in the nfl one of the most accurate deep ball throwing seasons in nfl history with really weak guys at the receiver position. So you just think, okay, he's on this playoff stage in Drake May. Things aren't perfect. He has to play a murderer's row of defenses. In the four games he played, every single defense was incredibly legit from the Chargers to the Texans to the Broncos to the Seahawks. But it's like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography. You know it when you see it. And what I saw this postseason from Drake May was a shell-shocked young quarterback who, until he shows that he's not going to have scar tissue in major moments, I think that's a legitimate concern. And when you're talking about building a program moving forward, some of the quarterbacks in the AFC, it's just it's really tough to imagine them being a favorite next year unless some considerable things change with that offense. And that was exposed in four in four consecutive playoff rounds. And of course, they made it to the Super Bowl. But I think it would be improper to ignore the things that we saw on half the ball. And defense, we know, regresses more than offense year to year in the NFL. and there's a world where the Patriots defense might be closer to the middle of the pack next year even if we like it just as much. Those things can be true and they play different teams in the postseason. They're going to have a first place schedule next year. And when you look up, I just think there's a world where I went through this. You have a magical season and the horseshoe's not up their **** next year. You also named a bunch of teams who are also playing first place schedules. The Broncos, the Jaguars are playing first places. You put me on the spot, man. I had to tap dance and come up with some stuff. Incredible job. We took that back. We said three to six next time. Okay, three to six. Can you guys think of a quarterback who looked shell-shocked in the postseason one year who then came back to win a Super Bowl the following year? You guys go all the way back to, oh, damn, last year with Sam Garnold. Of course. But do you really? But Bill, Bill. Come on, Bill. Let's have an audience. Oh, that is so disingenuous. I'm appalled by that. That's not how we were sold. That's not the bill of goods we were sold. The bill did not sell us on Drake May being Sam Darnold. No, no, no, no. And by the way, Drake May, what he did this year was historic. Being second in the MVP in his second season. Can we agree to do one thing? I just would like, let's just, we don't have to stay in our quarters. If somebody says something crazy, we can go ahead and agree with the thing that's not crazy. You trying to act like those things are the same feels crazy to me, Bill. You are normally the most reasonable among us. I'm just saying you guys can improve in the postseason. Of course, of course. It's a tiny sample. It's a tiny sample. The players you're bringing up is like, oh, I feel better about those teams are all quarterbacks who have had no one. No one is writing off Drake May in the future. We're trying to have some concern of why we think that this team. You know there were a lot of aberrations that happened for them to get here. And you know that it would be worse. And you know that the data that's surrounding of how the offensive played in the postseason is really unique for a Super Bowl team. Of course, no question. They're going to play a tougher schedule. What I'm arguing is that they're not, I don't feel worse about them, and I don't think they're the third to sixth likeliest team to make the Super Bowl out of the AFC. They've tied for the second best odds to make the Super Bowl next year. It's Bills. Anyway, this all started because I said that I was concerned about the answers that they were going to have for some of these positions in particular, especially Will Campbell. What answers will they have? Then we got into the conversation, which Charlie did. I mean, admittedly, Charlie stirred a pot when he was like, they're not going to be considered continuous. Carl had a cauldron going, a 200 cauldron thing going. That was a well-played move because somehow you ended up seeming like the ridiculous one. Because he was. When clearly Charlie said the most ridiculous thing, and then you out-ridiculous him by pretending like what we saw this year from this team should give us the confidence that they're going to be at the top. And then you made a Sam Darnold comparison, which Sam Darnold was amazing in the Rams playoff game. Every other game, including tonight. There was a point when it was 4 of 13, and after starting 2 of 4, I was like, oh, my God. I was just thinking that Bill was doing the Birdman meme. Ready for this. But we can't. I mean, he's a Super Bowl champ. And by the way, this all started with you talking about Will Campbell. What did you want us to do? I mean, I think it's a major story coming out of this. They spent a fourth-round pick. Fourth overall pick. That's the fourth round. My bad. Fourth round would have been all right. That would have been a decent showing. But they had a fourth overall pick. and you don't expect that person to be a constant problem. And I know he got hurt, and maybe that's part of the reason why his play seemed to fall off. So maybe that's all. But Will Campbell came into the league with a very specific criticism of him, that he is not – his arms aren't long enough to play tackle. And it didn't feel like it mattered whether he had arm length issues or not because he was getting manhandled. It was the base. It was his base. He got run through with bull rush after bull rush. And the thing that was confusing to me is as much as we've been celebrating Josh McDaniel's coaching ability and what he's brought from out of Drake May and all that, I was just surprised that they didn't have any better answers for how to help out that left side of the line throughout this entire playoff run. Like, we have to be honest, their offense, how many games do you think that their offense played well enough to win in this run? And, like, they just had no answers. And it felt like at some points they were trying to hide Drake May, which didn't make sense to me, considering that he was also an MVP frontrunner. But I get it. You play the game that's in front of you. It just felt like we were waiting for him to do the special offensive coordinator thing that we all celebrate for all these guru guys. and we've been putting him in that category. Except maybe he's not a head coach, but he certainly figured out this offense stuff. Like, he just couldn't do it. There was nothing. I'm thinking back through the playoffs. It's like Drake May scrambling, having the guts to call a bootleg, a naked bootleg on fourth down. Like, there's nothing that I'm just like, man, they really did scheme that up. Man, they really found a great answer to protect that side. Like, that to me was concerning. Well, the problem was, even when they did stuff in this game, it didn't work like they would try chipping and it wouldn't work they would try booting may and he was running into sacks they tried um you know play action it didn't work they tried spinning to that side and the seahawks had an answer before they even started sliding to the left side of the line they were you know the seahawks were forcing one-on-ones with their pre-snap looks and then they were spinning out of it they were dropping defensive tackles in the coverage they were i mean it felt like mike mcdonald out coached josh rick endles this game because he knew okay you're only going to have a limited number of answers for this stuff and you might get us here or there but you're not going to get us over the top for an explosive play maybe you'll get us for one or two in this game Drake may have two in a row one of which was an absolutely insane pass over the middle of the field which I don't know was even on purpose but it was just an incredible throw but it felt like we're going to make you do that time and time again and we're going to be right more often than you are and it wasn't even close how much more often the Seahawks were right when it came to exploiting the past protection of the Patriots. It just felt like they only had three or four answers, but none of them weren't. And so it just became like a, can we get lucky or can Drake run for his life and get open? It happened, but not very often. We can go to the Seahawks or to whatever else you had planned, Charlie, but I do also just feel like my final question on that is like when in this playoffs did they have the answer? Well, this is the whole thing. And this is, Drake May is the first player to be sacked five plus times in four straight playoff games. He had seven fumbles. He took 20 sacks in the postseason, which is the most in NFL history. He had three turnovers in this game. And those are not all on Drake May. Like you saw from the first possession. I don't really know what the answer is when you're going to have to try and max protect and change the whole offense. All offenses built are on explosives. And Drake, what do explosives need usually? They need a little bit of time. And so this is the larger thing of why I think there's a lot of questions about this offense, because, yeah, you can fix an offensive line in one offseason, but everyone in the league knows how important that position group is. We saw the Super Bowl champion last year have a historic group on that side, and when one side of their line fell apart this year, their offense completely disintegrated. So there's a lot of questions about how exactly you fix that, what you do with Campbell if he's knocked into guard or even center for next season. And, you know, it's a draft where there is Armand Membu, Gray Zabel, Kelvin Banks, Josh Connerly, who are all quality players over the course this year at similar positions. And that's a huge hit. And, like, that's just a fact of the matter, no matter how good you feel about this young team. And there are a ton of things for the Patriots. If you told them before the season, like, hey, you get to go to the Super Bowl, but you get the brakes beat off you and you get boat raced by Sam Darnold. Yeah. They probably take that. Yeah. Right. And I think in Bill's defense. The last part's tough. I'm starting to feel like maybe we went a little too hard on Bill earlier. I think we did. I think we did. We came out here just guns a-blazing at Bill for no reason. For no reason. I attacked him at the Patriots, Kenneth Walker. He needed it. He needed it. But I mean, it's the thing that I don't do it in one live show. And this is what I get in return. I mean, don't miss a live show. Live show was fire, too. It was great. We had a good time. But the this team, I think the team of disability and at this stage normally doesn't make it this far. And because they looked bad, it's like somehow we've convinced ourselves that that's bad for them. This experience is never bad for anybody or any team getting this far, unless you believe that there's some sort of residual, like... Scar tissue? Yeah, just like mental anguish from having an experience this bad that changes the way that they approach it, which I find that hard to believe that anybody who's made it to this level could have their confidence shaken that much from a few games Important games I get it I grant you but a few games in this spot We spent a lot of time on the Patriots Oh sorry go ahead Bill I have one question. Bears fans came out of that traditional round game. They felt great about Caleb Williams. He had incredible throws in that game. They threw three interceptions, the last one of which ended up costing them the game in overtime. But it felt like we all came out of that game and said, okay, Bears should feel great about their future in Caleb Williams. should Bears fans feel better about where they are because they lost in a competitive game two rounds before the Patriots who made it to the Super Bowl loss in a much less competitive game we said you were right you don't gotta rub it in and and yeah yeah I actually think that if you gave me a matchup Bears versus Patriots okay no no that Bears defense was so bad never I take it back you're trolling you're trolling me to say that I would trust the Bears more next year and i'll say yes that's exactly what i'm doing um so here i i have i have let's can we talk enough about the patriots we spent a lot of a lot of time on this i know it was there are some jarring parts that performance we really should focus on the seahawks a tiny bit there was a real case for devin witherspoon to win mvp we saw one of the more impressive rookie seasons from a dv db in memory from nicky minwari who came in with an ankle injury and we saw him he made a couple just tremendous plays in coverage and open field tackles in this game i was just impressed about how smart he was for a rookie. And throughout the course of the playoffs, he seemed like it was really difficult. It was clear that teams were trying to isolate and confuse him, and it was really difficult to do. And I just thought this was like from every level of the Seahawks defense. It was spectacular from Mills to Leonard Williams to Hall on the defensive line. Whether you want to blend it all on the Patriots offensive line, they were able to get a lot of pressure, and the secondary was unbelievable. They tackled in space. this defense doesn't feel as violent as a 2000 Ravens, a NASCAR package, Giants team, an 85 Bears. I mean, this year's Texans. This year's Texans. But what they were was, in certain ways, historically dominant and incredibly modern with the way they use nickel, the way that they use defensive backs to, like you said that nothing they're doing is confusing teams. They just can execute with so much speed and finesse at different levels. Would you now view this as a historic defense? Because when you stack it up, they just won a Super Bowl with Sam Darnold. They just won a Super Bowl where we didn't trust certain parts of the offense, even though they were great in that Rams game. Do you now put this defense, if it's not like a Pantheon defense, is it one that you're going to remember? And when do you think it's going to be significant for how defenses are built moving forward? I forgot the LLB, by the way. That's another historic defense. I shouldn't leave them out. I feel like you asked a number of different questions. I don't think of them as like a historic defense that I'll put in the Pantheon of great defenses. maybe a couple more years of play like this than the dark side, which is what they call themselves, right? They need a better nickname. Yeah, then we'll find a better nickname for him and then put him into this particular pantheon. I do think that what you're saying about modern defenses is true, the versatility and flexibility. And we got into a bunch of this at the live show a couple days ago that I do think that their positionlessness of their linebackers and secondary people allow them to be flexible in coverage. And while they're not doing anything crazy confusing, they are using their alignment to create matchups that they like. And they react to route combinations in a way that I think is unique and sometimes appears unpredictable to the quarterback. So I think all those things are true. They are a defense without a significant weakness. They don't fit into that category to me of like Pantheon defenses yet, which might just be me being unfair to the new style of defense or to a newer style of defense because I would point to the Texans as a team that I would have said had they gone here, I probably would have put them in there. It might just be my bias because the way that they play is something that feels more dominant. The edges and the corners. Yeah, it feels more football-y. Bill, tell me why I'm wrong. I don't know if I'm the one who should be telling you how football your football team should be. But I will say this felt more game planning than maybe they have at different points this year. It felt more like, oh no, we incorporated all the sim pressure stuff that maybe we had to rely on last year because we didn't have the same caliber of dudes up front. We know McDonald has that stuff going back to his time in Baltimore where he was able to bake protections, not necessarily by having superstars, but by having some really talented players in some spots and then using sim pressures to kind of break apart the protections he knew were coming. And so it felt like once you stack all that into the fact that they can just line up and beat you mano a mano without having to do all that stuff, it felt like just like this added blow that Patriots had no ability to recover from because they couldn't beat him up when they were lining up and just going, you know, straight rushing forward without even twisting or stunting, let alone adding all the stuff, adding all the wrinkles McDonald was able to add with two weeks here to put together this game plan. And it just feels like, you know, you have a team where it is more than the sum of the individual parts. Like the sun adds up. It's not like they have that Hall of Famer, you know, in the middle of the field, Earl Thomas or Bobby Wagner or Richard Sherman. Like I think De'Veon Witherspoon is an incredible cornerback. But like, you know, Julian Love's a good player. He's not a Hall of Famer. Kobe Bryant's a good player. He's not a Hall of Fame free safety. It's not like you have those freaks where it's like, oh my God, they fundamentally change what we do. Maybe Evan Warry's that player. I don't know if he's quite there yet. He's a really talented player, especially for a rookie. But they're just so solid at all levels. And so you don't have a lot of guys going to Simon's, except for maybe Rick Gould last week. You may be going for double moves here and there, but they're so physically impressive. They're so stout up front. They're so good at setting the edge. They're so good at tackling. They're just so good at everything, where I think they don't have that truly transcended thing, but they're just so good across the board. They're so hard to find weaknesses to exploit. I just wonder if we're going to look up in four or five years and be like, wow, they have They just have two Hall of Fame players in their secondary. And even Warrion with their zone. And that's like, we look back on it differently. It's like one or both of them stack a defensive player of the year. And this becomes a trend that's picked up on by a lot of teams. Obviously, McDonald's been trying to do this. It's similar to what he had when the Ravens defense was humming at its most with Hamilton's versatility. But I think there's a world where this defense ages better than we view it now. Not just as a trendsetter, but with the actual personnel in it. Because, of course, they have a ton of underrated guys in the front. Has anyone been more perpetually underrated than Leonard Williams? Yeah, that was the first name. When you were saying, like, there's not a standout guy like that Hall of Famer. It's like, and I mean, I get the point that you're making, but the way that Leonard Williams impacts that line and DeMarcus Lawrence has been incredible. Like, everybody. They're very good players. Yeah, but you're right. It's not, they will have Hall of Fame type games. But you're right. It's not to the degree that we had some of these other guys. I think I would feel slightly different about Witherspoon, at least this season. I've watched more Witherspoon than I have in the past. And what he did this year, that to me felt like Hall of Fame level play from start to finish. But I think you're right. Yeah, he's not the guy. I think if you go ask somebody back in the LOB days to name some players on that defense, they very much would come up with Richard Sherman and easily come up with some other players' names. You're right. This team is not well-known enough, and maybe they'll get to that point. But if you ask me, the one person on the defense that is special is Devin Witherspoon. He's just so physical and so good in coverage. And so I do want to ask you guys a tiny bit, not to take the bait too far on this, but where are you with Darnold? Because he sort of broke the internet. And I want, like, because people couldn't talk about him normally. It was either, like, he's a winner guy or he's terrible. And then he had the Rams game, and people were like, see? This is, and he came into this, and he didn't play great today, but he didn't turn the ball over. It was complimentary football. And we were talking about this in the green room as we were watching this game. It doesn't feel like he's in the Trent Dilfer mold of quarterbacks, but where are you with him and his performance this season? I don't want to be critical of him because he played clean football through this entire playoff run, But like, where does he fall on the on the spectrum of like we won because him or he didn't lose the game or game manager? I'm trying to think of the right way to phrase this. I see what you're saying. It's but the problem with Sam is not any consistent thing. That's been the tough part with him. I mean, he was literally number one in QBR for 10 weeks and then 28 in QBR afterwards. In the postseason, three different games, three entirely different circumstances against the Niners. They didn't need him. He played fine. Against the Patriots, they didn't need him. I thought he played okay. He wasn't that great as a pass. He looked at all plays on the field, but he was good at avoiding sacks and good at avoiding negative plays, which is a positive. But then against the Rams, defense didn't play that great. Running game wasn't very good. They absolutely needed Sam Darnold to be that guy in that game, and he was. They won because they got a short field from their special teams, a punt recovery, and they had a great game from Sam Darnold. So they didn't need him to be that guy for three games, but they did absolutely need him for one game, and he played at a high level when they needed him. And so I think that's sort of like the difficult part in judging him is that he's not the same guy in the same story from week to week, more so than really the vast majority of other quarterbacks in the NFL. He has been—we think about guys like Flacco, Eli back in the day, you know, Nick Foles. Those guys were consistently really good throughout those postseasons. With Darnold, he has been either inoffensive or really good, but not really in between. It feels like the major takeaway from Sam Darnold over these last couple of years is that he has raised his ceiling, but he hasn't raised his floor all that much. And it feels like there was a time when you wouldn't, you would only get, like, best level game was mediocre. And now he has the ability to reach, like, super high levels. but he's still going to give you some bad games and he's still going to give you some some mediocre which is like rare for us in his heart because when you start asking for comps like i don't know maybe my memory isn't good enough for other people's specific careers but normally the band of performance for players it's like pretty close like they're great guys who never get super low and then there's like the average guys who sometimes can blow it and then there's the guys who can't play in this league and like sam darnold started closer to that than anything else and he still has games like that on occasion but then all of a sudden he'll go against the best team they faced in the playoffs and go completely nuts and it's just it's hard for us to wrap our heads around and I think that's what makes it so like uh or such an inviting argument is all the the parts are there to make any argument that you want to make and whatever your priors were and I'm guilty of this also you didn't grab on to whatever is there so that you can support whatever your prior opinion was of him or his team and what's surrounding him. So he finished this year 13th in the NFL and QBR. That seems entirely fair to me. They think that he was the 13th best quarterback in football. Checks out. Doesn't seem crazy to me. What I do think is happening here, though, now in the big picture is like we're breaking all these rules people had about like the quarterback you needed to have to win the Super Bowl. Go back to last year, Jalen Hurts. It was like, oh, running quarterbacks, never going to win the Super Bowl, which has always been kind of a nonsense thing. The goalposts have moved there, but that conversation is over with Jalen Hurts winning a Super Bowl. Now it's Sam Darnold. It's, oh, the middle-class quarterback. You have to have either a guy at a rookie contract or just a Mahomes-level, tippy-top, no-doubt superstar. Now the Seahawks won with a guy who's in the middle, a middle-class quarterback who was a free agent signing available for free to 32 teams this year. I feel like it's going to ruin a lot of morning show conversations for a while because we can't put guys into buckets and say, you have to have one of these guys and you can't win with this guy. You can win with anybody as long as you build the right team around that guy. And as long as that guy has enough good games when it matters, that you can overcome a time for your defense doesn't have a great day or your run game doesn't have a great day. And that's what Darnell was able to do this year. All you can do is keep building the team. Like this is what we talk about all the time. I feel good about him being like you're building the team with him. It's like you're – I don't know what it is. It's like your franchise bridge quarterback, but it's someone who is – because he played cleaner football this year. All of the questions we have are can he play clean football in high leverage situations. But it's not about him. I think that they won the Super Bowl. They're done. I think what Bill is talking about and what comes to mind for me is like, what lessons have we learned and have we learned the right lessons? Have we dispelled any actual myths? And I think that it's always the same. And my guess is that people who run teams and make these decisions feel the same way, that it's like you can't build a team around a superstar quarterback if you don't have one because then you're just hoping. generally like you just got to keep building your team as good as you can and sometimes you're going to have that year of course if you have a great quarterback most years like you can look through the history of the nfl especially post free agency like most times the person who wins the quarterback or wins the super bowl has a great all-time great quarterback and every now and then like once or twice a decade a team's able to get in there for whatever reason and win a super bowl with a quarterback that's not that way but you can't plan as if if you're only going to have your job for four years depending on how well you do you can't plan around well we just don't have a quarterback you have to continue to build your team and this team didn't even necessarily have the quarterback that they wanted like from what i understand they wanted geno smith and that didn't work out so he had to uh pivot to getting sam donald and it worked out just fine yeah i mean i i it's so tough because i want to give respect to what sam donald did like this guard it was just It's like you obviously don't have the nuanced conversation, but the guy overcame. You think we aren't fully respecting Sam Darnold? No, it's just not totally. Yeah. And it's like I'm not doing the he went 14-3 in the past two years. It's just like a huge swath of the criticisms we had for Sam Darnold was the floor and him not being able to play clean football in situations and him immolating in a sense that gave a team that was really great no chance to win. And he actually answered the bell in that in this postseason. That criticism was just last year. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's not even the far back criticisms of him being a bust. And I kind of think both of those things can be true, where we also know there's room for space in our head for both, that he wasn't good after the middle of the season, but then he still played in this complimentary way in the postseason. And quite frankly, really was unbelievable in that Rams game. And that's such a huge part. We'll look back on that game. It was kind of the Super Bowl. We're going to look back on that game, and those were clearly the two best teams this season. 49ers Cowboys back there and like and so like to me that that's I don't know it's a feather in his cap and like I would feel very comfortable with the way that this team is built and like I I think I want to ask you the biggest winners and losers from this game as we zoom out and it I start on this And I want to start with some of the winners Obviously there the Seahawks but John Schneider what he done No, I'm serious. From the amount of draft picks that have hit over the last three years in the first couple rounds, to replacing an iconic football coach in Pete Carroll with Mike McDonald, to signing Sam Darnold as the pivot for that on an affordable deal, to hitting on every single trade from the Shaheed trade to trading DK Metcalf and making JSN the number one receiver to move after move after move. Like, this is some Ozzie Newsome level. Like, genuinely, he made every single decision correct and built around the defense over a several-year period that resulted in the Super Bowl. That's two Super Bowls. It's Ozzie-esque. Yeah, I'm not saying he's going to be Ozzie as one of the best GMs in modern history, but it's like the way he gets done, that's, that's more rare than just like, I stumbled into hall of fame quarterback immediately. It made the build easier. And Schneider is now one of the GMs that has been able to do that and pivot in a way that's like incredibly impressive. When I look at this season, like to me, he is up there for the biggest winner from the Seahawks. I think that ties into like one of the, while we champion football as being a great sport to watch and talk about one of the challenging things that may be a little bit better in other sports is you can move the conversation to a different position, whereas we're always going to have to have a quarterback conversation, and it feels like having an honest quarterback conversation sometimes is going to sound disrespectful coming off of the Super Bowl. But I would say, obviously, Sam Darnold's a winner. I would also say defensive coaches. I think having both of these coaches in the Super Bowl and having this game be clearly about defense and this run through the playoffs be about a bunch of really good defenses making plays. I think having Mike McDonough win this trophy, I think defensive coaches got to win tonight. Yeah. Yeah. I would say with Schneider, the thing that comes to mind is patience. I think Schneider was the big player, the big person who came to mind for me. And remember, you go back to the Jamal Adams trade a few years ago. One of the reasons I heard repeatedly as to why that was a good trade for the Seahawks was, ah, Jive Schneider's going to screw up those picks anyway might as well trade him for a player you know is good because john schnider's drafts have been bad for a few years prior to that and you just sort of see the wild fluctuations you have with general managers where over the course of a decade span if you get to see that guy for a decade he might look like a genius for three years terrible for three years and then really smart for three years and it's not like he's changed maybe little things here and there but for seahawks fans it was oh scott mcclellan was the guy who drafted bobby wagner and russell Wilson. John Schneider just happened to be there. Well, it's not the case. John Schneider is a really good NFL general manager, and it would not have been shocking had he been fired and Pete Carroll had been given the opportunity to rebuild the team. And choosing Schneider and letting Carroll go ended up leading the Seahawks to where they are right now. And so I do think, like, in the big picture, when you think about what can you learn from the Seahawks, what can you learn from how they've done this, I know it's the hardest thing to do, but patience is really a virtue when it comes to evaluating gms and evaluating coaches and you'd love to have a guy who fixes things immediately like brable did but it's just it doesn't always work that way obviously i agree that patience is the virtue but what are you measuring them with i think is the better question because patience just for the sake of patience isn't necessarily a virtue like you if um if john snyder has a bad track record of drafting then you feel like you should move on from which he did Like, I guess in that case, there has to be something there. It's the plan that he's presenting. It's the excuse that he's explaining. Like, that's the hard part to me because every time someone's fired, they aren't wrong. They aren't wrong every time they fire a GM or a coach or something. Sure. Just, I guess John Snyder has to, he's, they're known to have like a good system for evaluating players, even though the success rate hasn't been high in drafting, but it's been on fire recently. I guess the Rams have had an incredible one since then. But just from the last several drafts, like this in 2025, the first two rounds, they got Graze Abel and Eamon Worry. In 2024, Byron Murphy, A.J. Barner. 2023, Devin Witherspoon, Jackson Smith and Jigba, Derek Hall and Zach Charbonnet in the first two rounds. 2022, Charles Cross, Oya Mafe, Kenneth Walker. and that's a huge part of this team. By the way, I do want to give one winner to the Patriots a player of this too, which is Christian Gonzalez, which is a game that genuinely, if he hadn't been playing out of his mind, there were a couple of balls that Darnold did throw a tiny bit off target, but that game gets totally out of hand almost immediately. And we were watching that game in the first half, we're like, is this game going to be worse than last year? And the reason it wasn't was because of Christian Gonzalez sort of squashing some of those big plays. So if there's anyone from the Patriots' side, I think you'd feel good about it. Obviously, interior pressure from the defensive line. The defensive line held up really well, but it would be Gonzalez, who is spectacular. Does feel like a big winner in this game might have been cornerbacks. I love it. Thank you, Bill. Why? Let's talk about this. Cornerbacks are good. Do you need them? that was a show killer moment. Let's go with some losers now. Some people who feel the worst. Love for quarterbacks is a show killer moment. Let's talk about who feels the worst. I want to ask you of these three quarterbacks, Bill, who feels the worst today? Gino Smith, Josh Allen, or Drake May? Not engaging with this question. That's a great question. You wouldn't engage with that? Who feels the worst about it? I'll add Bo Nix. Bo Nix is his ankle. It's not really his fault, but just the missed opportunity of it. I think it has to be Josh Allen. I'll engage with the ridiculous question, and I will give you the exact answer that you want because I believe it to be bad. Of course, Drake Mayfield is really bad right now. So it's hard. It made it more difficult when you threw him in there, but I'll give a damn. It's Josh Allen. And I was one at the beginning of the playoffs who said that this is not his best chance. Now I'm at the end of the playoffs. Like, damn. I think this was Josh's best chance. You're such a contrarian. You're just waiting for the Seahawks. Seahawks would have beaten the brakes off of that team. And you're like. Yeah, they probably would have. But right now, it wouldn't have been this bad. Oh, yeah. Like, they have an ability to run the ball. And they have a quarterback who has. I'll tell you one thing. Timmy Smith's record would have fallen if the Bills had played in that game because K-Walk would have run for 240 yards. Yeah. Yeah, that's true because Bill's defense was so bad. They were the Will Campbell of run defenses. I mean, I guess, actually, I think the answer is Geno Smith. I changed my mind. Geno Smith. Because I think that Geno Smith... No, no, I'm serious this time. Josh Allen, just joking. Geno Smith, because Geno Smith looks at Sam Darnold and sees someone who's not better, that he believes to be not better than him and it's like i could have been on this team that could have been me people would be celebrating me making all the stories about me and the championship run that we just went on like i and maybe it wouldn't happen that way but i imagine that if anyone is watching this he's the one that sees this run and thinks that he was terrible in in um las vegas this year however he was very good in seattle last year he fell below the mendoza line oh gosh how long even waiting to do that one. It just came up. It just came to you? It just came to you, yeah, sure. I'd say Josh Allen for the opposite reason. I feel like if Josh Allen sees the Seahawks and he's like, man, if I could just get a defense like this, I'd have a dynasty. I'd be winning the Super Bowl every year. Thank you, Captain Hopkins. If we had just fired our old coach and hired someone who was more modern and I had a league average defense, I'd be in the Super Bowl right now. So which franchise feels worse right now? Is it the Vikings? The Ravens? Or... I don't want to throw the Bills back in there. Or the Rams, I guess. We put the Rams in there. Which franchise feels the worst? Vikings, Ravens, or Rams? The Rams, for sure. Because the Rams, number one, felt like they would have dominated this game in the same way the Seahawks would have dominated this game. And number two, that might have been their last chance, given how old the stars on that team are on the offense. I guess Stafford, really. But once Stafford retires, that team is in a different situation. Don't want to hold this well. But it felt like this might have been their best chance with Stafford after having won a few years ago. So no credence to the idea that the Vikings are looking at this like, man, that could have been us we have an incredible receiver um and a great or a very good defense and that could have been us if we would have kept a quarterback that's better than the one that we had there's no chance that they're looking at this and thinking that could have been and should have been us had we kept him and the ravens point is only because they moved on from their head coach when they had mike mcdaniel uh or mike mcdonald in the building and that could have been the transition force to a guy who's winning Super Bowls right now with sophisticated Ravens-esque defense. How many games did they win the year McDonough left? Probably like 14. I don't know. Or like 14. They weren't firing. That's like, we don't have to pretend that there was ever a scenario where they were firing John Harbaugh for Mike McDaniel. But like, Sam Darnold could have stayed in Minnesota. That's like a real possibility. John Harbaugh was never getting fired after that season. We would have gone on TV collectively and screamed at the Ravens for firing John Harbaugh from that event if I had that happen. So we don't have to pretend that's a real thing. But Donald, yes. The Vikings could legitimately say, hey, our defense is good. We would have had a shot. I don't think Donald would have had a good. Justin Jefferson feels that way. Justin Jefferson feels a lot of things right now. I think the Chargers are probably watching this run, too, thinking, like, that could have been us with some healthy tackles. Like, I think the Chargers, with that defense, and it feels like an opportunity year. Whenever we have one of these years that it's not won by, like, one of the superstar Hall of Fame quarterbacks, it feels like probably a lot of teams are looking at it as a missed opportunity year. Do you want to go through your... The thing that we've been saying our offseason, not Josh Allen. We're all posting about Josh Allen. You finally come around to. You guys were wrong then. I'm willing to take responsibility when I'm wrong. But at that point, you were wrong. You didn't become right until now when I said you were right. Winner, Bill Belichick. Loser, DK Metcalf. Ooh. Bill Belichick. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like Bill Belichick already lost. Like, not only the Hall of Fame thing, but the team's ability to get back here is enough to be, like just because they didn't win the super bowl doesn't feel like do you think he was rooting for the seahawks of course obviously we saw jordan hudson with the robert craft what more do i have to say you think that he wants that that family or that couple wants happiness for robert craft she went to a rivalry game with a t-shirt on to the massage place where craft got in trouble like there's no way that anyone in there he's kind of a fire shirt i would buy that shirt if they said if i could find it if someone has like an etsy link for it tweet it at me don't tweet it at him please please do not do not give it to charlie's worst urges oh gosh who do you pick though for who feels the worst yeah i mean obviously drickman he lost the super bowl all right yeah yeah but i mean the the i don't know if josh allen even like totally could have survived with his foot immediately getting surgery on that and like yeah it might have been his best chance because the um the afc was worse but i think they would have gotten the the brakes beaten off of in that game i don't know like it's it's weird you think of some of these like these super bowl teams that win without the dynamic quarterback in the way that like a you know mahomes brady manning type and you we we seem to constantly underrate those teams as super bowl champions and i think it was about four weeks ago i asked the question on one of these sunday night shows being like is this just a juggernaut hiding in plain sight? And I'm going to wonder when we look back at like outside of the Rams game, the margin of victory and the domination from the Seahawks team, really from mid season on. And if we're just going to view them and be like, wow, this was actually like a, the gap was huge between them and the Rams and everyone else. And they played one, they had one really tough game and the rest of it was like, they were just better than everyone else. I mean, I mean, they haven't seen what the Superbowl they were, but like, you know, we came into this, into this game being like, well, what if, you know, what if there's no best team this year? And I actually think that the Seahawks really were a clear best team. No, I mean, I think we came to the understanding that the Seahawks and the Rams separated themselves a while ago. That doesn't mean that they're like some juggernaut. And maybe that's, again, with just our quarterback-focused way of evaluating things, it's hard for us to see them that way. And it might just be our star-focused way because this team doesn't have the transcendent jump-off-the-screen superstar. I think it'll become JSN, but they don't have it. And he was absent in this game. Which is crazy. That was one of the things that, like, I thought if they were going to manufacture offense, so much was going to be through him. And the Kenneth Walker thing, I mean, obviously, it's so awesome. He's a deserved MVP. But so much stuff had to happen for him to, he was unleashed for large portions of his career, it feels like, where he was in a platoon with Charbonnet. And their offense became more explosive with him as more of their bell cow back. And, like, the way it just went down was just very surprising. Bill, before we close the show, redraft the 2024 quarterbacks. Why don't you give it to me At the Bill Barnwell show So who do we have We have Caleb May Jaden This is just a roundabout way For Charlie to get some love For his man Jaden Daniels On the way out of the show That's all this is Just say you would get Jaden Daniels first No it's easy It's May Caleb big drop off Jaden we'll drop off Vicks big drop off Michael Penix I'll see you in September you didn't even rank JJ McCarthy he forgot he forgot he forgot about nine on that note thank you Bill Barwell for joining us Thank you, Charlie Kravitz. This has been the Dominique Foxworth Show presented by Allstate. Throw your hands up. Thanks to all the great producers. We out. This is the Dominique Foxworth Show.