You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Herway. Clips was formed in 1994 by two brothers, Jean Thornton Jr. aka Malice, and his younger brother, Terence Thornton, aka Pusha T. From the beginning, they've worked with producer Farelle Williams, originally as part of the acclaimed production duo, The Neptune's. But then there was a 16-year gap between the third Clips album, which came out in 2009, and their most recent album, Let God Sorta Mount, which came out in July 2025. This November, they were nominated for five Grammys, including album of the year. They were also nominated for Best Rapsong for the Birds Don't Sing. It's a song that they made after the death of both of their parents and the span of just a few months. For this episode, I asked Pusha T. Malice and Farelle about the making of that song. Which also features contributions from John Legend and Stevie Wonder. This is Pusha T. This is Malice, one half of Clips. The events in this song start in November 2021. I was wondering what was going on in your life around that time, and Pusha, maybe I'll ask you to answer that first. I was actually traveling a lot. I was making music in different states, different settings. I was always leaving town. Me and my mom, he got into an argument, centered around her driving herself to dialysis and not calling my brother. So that was an issue for me. You know, like, why are you driving? Like you don't even have to drive. Jean would go to her house in the morning before she could even get to her car. He would be outside waiting for her and be like, get in the car. I will drive you to dialysis. My mom, real, you know, tough lady, tough. Like if you argue with her, it's like she's getting the last words. She, I think she hung up on me when I was coming back home. I said, man, I'm gonna go over here and act like nothing ever happened. So of course I did. Hey, what's up? You look good today. What's going on? You know, we talking to whatever I told her my plans, which were to go to Turks for Thanksgiving and Texas the next day. She questioned me about going to Turks. Are you sure you want to go to Turks? But before I left, she said to me, hey, I ain't going to drive no more. Okay. And I was like, okay, you know, I just brushed it off. And then she said, but you know, I can't drive right? And I said, yeah, I know. And I left go pack, you know, get myself together, you know, leave a port. And yeah, I went to her house and it was about 530 in the morning. I was picking her up as normal for dialysis. My sister had called me and she said, you know, she's been trying to call my and that she didn't get an answer. And I was like, well, I'm here now. The door is open. I had just pulled up and I went in there and I just discovered her just laying there. When I got to the airport, my wife called me and told me that my brother had found my mom. I was on my way back home immediately, of course. Four months later, one of my dad's best friends gave me a call. And he told me that my dad didn't show up for church. When I went over there to check on my dad, I saw that his car was there. You know, I knocked on the door. I just didn't get a response. It led me to believe that something, you know, was wrong. I called to have a welfare check done. And the paramedics, when they went inside, it looked to be a new rookie that was with them. And when he came outside, I noticed that he quickly glanced at me, but couldn't look at me. And I knew at that point, before I actually laid eyes on my dad, I knew that he was no longer with us. When I went in his place, he was laying there very much like how my mom was laying there. It was just very surreal to revisit that scenario back to back like that. Yeah. Your parents lived in Virginia Beach. And I know that's where you grew up. And that's where for all grew up. Did he know your parents? Absolutely. For all, I mean, we know each other's parents and neighbors and yeah, for sure. I know, forget like I was at my house, like sort of pacing around in New York. I just understood it. We got to do a song. It was the right thing to do. We got to do this. It came to him and he was like, man, I got to go in the studio tomorrow. Because I feel like I got this, like I feel like I got the song. He hears it in his head before anything. I was in Paris where we had been recording the majority of the album. I just remember he played the beat. You know, and just telling me like this is how it's supposed to be. Like this is the openness and this is the soundbed to get everything you want to get off your chest. That was his pitch to me for the verses. Because when you have beats like that, every line has to hit. Every line had to mean something. The beat was what we call a talker, where you can get your diction on and say the things that touch people and make them feel where you're coming from. I couldn't dive into it though. I needed a minute. I did feel like we have to do this, but I just wasn't ready to prepare myself for that dive in honestly. Lost an emotion, mama's youngest, trying to navigate life without my compass. Some experienced death and feel numbness, but not me. I felt it all and couldn't function. Immediately it was about tapping into the emotion. Just the emotion of even having to write it. I wanted to speak to that from line one. You know, you need to understand that I'm lost while I'm trying to write this. I'm trying to figure this out, y'all. And I wanted to put in perspective where I am in the family tree. You know, just imagine what the youngest, the mama's boy of the bunch. How tough this has to be. Seeing you that day, telling you my plans, but I was leaving you that day. It was in God's hands. Yeah, it was at E-Lawns waiting to get with me on my way to Texas. That's when Virginia hit me. To give a little bit of backstory. That day I was meeting Kanye at Elon Musk House to record, to be honest. So I was actually on a trip to Texas when I found out and my wife's name is Virginia. When you have a moment like that, lyrically, where you're in the middle of this emotional story, but you still managed to juxtapose Texas, the place and Virginia the place with Virginia, your wife's name. Is that something that comes to you spontaneously? Or is it something that you try and work towards? No, that I mean, I feel like you're trying to get our original recipe on how we do this thing. I am exactly. This song was definitely more on the passionate side, but there are just those magical times that come together where it just ended up being wordplay when it's really just true. Saying you was tired, but not ready to go. Basically was dying without letting me know. I loved you, Med Nodge. Hate that he won't remember you. Two things that break my heart is what November's do. Could you tell me about that, Lyrick? Two things that break my heart is what November's do. Genius. For my son not to know who his grandmother was and how she was. That is very painful to me because she was a nurturing, spoiling type of lady and would be for him. I think that like is a very tough thing for me in dealing with, you know, her loss. Gene, you said genius when I asked about that line from Pushity. Do you two feel like you are each other's first fans? For sure. For me, for me, absolutely. I mean, we had a session. I had to take him outside and just tell him what I thought. And I was like, yo, you know, you're the best. You are the best. That's how I see it. You got to understand that, you know, for me, the art of rap. I've never witnessed this in close proximity until my, you know, seeing my brother first being a writer, understanding the art of it, the actual, you know, sitting down, pen to pad, notebook. So there's a tutorial in that in just the beginning of it for me. And now 16 years later from our last album, seeing how people gravitate to his intellect and perspective. Man, this has been going on from seventh grade for him 12, 13 years old for him. So of course, how does this first end? T follows you, which is my dad. Now mind you, did he calls you gene finds you? Was that your vision precision while I'm reminiscing it all his different mile listen? That was basically the walk down and everything that happened when Jean tells you he pulled up at my mom's house, my sister called him. He was already in front of the house. He walks in the door was open. Was this how she played it, wanted it and how it was just easy like it was just. Yeah, she just made it clean, man, but that's my mom. No, I don't know. It just made me question like I said the whole verse as I'm writing it. My mind is just thinking in hindsight. Just wanted to speak to the idea of man, did you map this out like this? My conversation with clips continues after this. Yeah. Push have finished his verse before I did and when I first heard his verse, it just cut really, really deep. I knew that I had a job on my hands. And then once I had some time to just enjoy the verse and limit over the verse, mourn over the verse. Then and only then could I dig in and do my thing on it. And that is who my dad was. Chivalrous. You know what I'm saying? Stand up when a woman comes into the room. Everywhere, scriptures, everywhere, like I don't know how many Bibles he had in his house, but he was the deacon at his church. You know, even in his car, like you pull the bison down in the scripture, falls out of it. You know what I was saying? And that was our conversation every morning, coffee and just talking about the goodness of God. That's really how we bonded. I can hear your voice now. I can feel your presence. Haskin shit. I wrap again. You gave me your blessing. The way you spelled it out. There's a nela. Never lessen boy. You owe it to the world. Let your mess become your message. So I asked him the week before he passed. What did he think about me returning to rap? And he said, I think you've been too hard on yourself, son. Just like that. I really stand by every decision I made with my hiatus. But to hear him say that, you know, it just opened my eyes. For all of her said he didn't want to sing the hook. He didn't felt like he was strong enough a singer to do the hook. He sang it a couple different ways and ended up saying, man, I'm not nailing this chorus properly. But this is how I hear it. And when we get the right person to nail it, it's going to be everything it needs to be. And then he was like, hey, man, you know who do this? Like who got it? They're going to execute. And I was like, who? He was like John Legend. And I was like, man, the birds don't sing. The birds don't sing their screeching pain. He understood the mission. Yeah, he definitely understood the mission. I could tell he understood what the song meant to us. You know, you can hear it in the vocal. For all, Pusha and Malice told me that you're the one who came up with the lyrics for the hook. And I was wondering how did those words end up being the lyrics for the song? It's a quote from Werner Herzog, right? Yeah, the director. It was so striking to me. It was from this movie. He was like an jungle somewhere. And you know, something terribly wrong with his production, whatever. He was so mad. He was kind of like cursing everything. Of course, there's a lot of misery. But it is the same misery that is all around us. The trees here are in misery. And the birds are in misery. I don't think they sing. They just screech in pain. And I was like, that's crazy. The audacity to say that you're sad. So certainly everything must be sad too. And so when we got ready to do the song, I knew that was idle. So sing that screech in pain. Don't the truth flow in that now feels different. When they knew in that, they knew in that. Since the beginning of time, when it was Neptune's, we used to call for rather third clips member. You know, just because of the ad-libs and those vocal nuances that come along within the track. It's something that people have always looked forward to. Don't the truth flow in that now feels different. When they knew in that, they knew in that. The birds are singing. The birds are singing. They screech in pain. And Stevie wondered the keys. How did that happen? For real took a trip somewhere. And Stevie wonder was there. And he was like, man, I have this song that I would love to get you on. He gave them the whole rundown of the song. And man, you know, Stevie just enhanced what was there. And that's Stevie at the end of the song as well speaking. Remember those who lost their mothers and fathers. And make sure that every single moment that you have with them, you show them love. Man, if my mom knew that we had Stevie wonder on the song, she'd flip out. You show them love. You'll see. One thing I'm curious about is how did you two decide who was going to write which verse about which parent? I mean, we both could have interchanged. It was just how it happened. Pusha finished his verse with the conversation, you know, that he had with our mother at the time. Just fresh on his mind. But I mean, we could have switched at any point. I just want to go back to the lyrics for the hook for a second. When you first heard for all building his hook around these words, the birds don't sing. They screech in pain. What was your reaction to that? It hit me pretty hard because I was feeling like damn, like my mom was really tough in this out. You know, the whole process of dialysis, the whole process of, you know, just sickness and getting up and doing all that she was doing. And I began to just think about how tough things had to have been for her. And speaking about that with Pharrell just randomly, you know, just like, man, you know, how you feeling. And, you know, just telling them about that. He called me back and was like, man, the parallel of we think that birds are singing. But they're actually screeching in pain, like the parallel of like, you know, watching my mom just get up and muster through things. And she here and she tough and whatever the case may be, but she may have really been tough in it out. I think a lot of people suffer in silence. And especially the way we grew up is like, you just don't dump all of your hardships. Your pain and struggles are no more special than anyone else's. But the idea of anything being tough for her while I'm thinking she just going on with her day and her daily and, you know, just being her. That idea was, that broke me down. Like it broke me down. So on Thursday, my dad came over to get some paperwork that I had. So he pulls up in the driveway. He's sitting in the car and I ran outside and I had on a white t-shirt I remember. And it was freezing outside. I came outside. I went to his side of the door. I gave him the paperwork. I ran back up the stairs to my house and I said, I love you. And he said, I love you, son. And it was that tone that I just did. Now we always said that I love you, but the way he said it, it rained to me. Like it touched me because it was very endearing. And then I'm running in the house and I close the door and I'm running up my stairs. I said to myself, I said, I didn't even see his face. Like I didn't bend down to look in the car. I just gave him the paper. And my dad passed that weekend. That's the last thing that I heard him say. It really meant something to me. He left me with something. Family is family. And now here's the birds don't sing by clips in its entirety. I'm not a man. I'm not a man. I'm not a man. I'm not a man. I'm not a man. I'm not a man. I'm not a man. And I realized in that instant how last conversation you was against it. Told you I was going to turks for things given. I heard what I wanted to hear but didn't listen. You said you told Jean that Bup needed forgiveness. I see you in the ddys and stuff both her fridges. You even told dad you wish y'all never split it. So you were checking boxes. I was checking my mentions. Saying he was tired but not ready to go. I'm without letting you know I love you midnight. Hey, did he won't remember you two things that break my heart. It's what no vimbers do and he follows you. Now mind you, ddys calls you, Jean finds you. Was that your vision? Precision while I'm reminiscing. It all hits different miles. The birds don't sing. The birds don't sing this creature. The birds don't sing. The birds don't sing this creature. The birds don't sing. The birds don't sing this creature. Your call was in the driveway. I knew you were home by the third knock. A chill ran through my bones. The way you missed mama. I guess I should have known. Chivalry ain't dead. You ain't let her go alone. Found you in the kitchen. Scriptures in the den. Half written text that you never got to sing. Come in through your dresser drawer. Where do I begin? Posting noted Bible quotes. Were you preparing then? I can hear your voice now. I can feel your presence. Haskin shit I wrap again. You gave me your blessing. The way you spelled it out. There's an Ellen every lesson for you. Over to the world. Let your mess become your message. Share with my friends the pops they never had. You live for our fishing trips. Damn I had a dad. Mine taught discipline. Mine taught structure. Mine did it mine when he had to pull a double. Mine worked overtime. Smile through the struggle. Cause mine wouldn't let us feel what he had to suffer. See mine made sure he had every base covered. So imagine his pain. Finding base in the cupboard. Birds don't sing if the words don't sting. Your last few words in my ears still ring. You told me that you loved me. It was all in your tone. I love my two sons with the cold to your phone. Now you call. The birds don't sing. The birds don't sing. The birds don't sing. It's crazy. Try. Don't be true flowing. They know you different way. We need no within. The birds don't sing. No they don't make a difference. The birds don't sing make a difference. They don't make a difference. They make a difference. They make a difference. They make a difference. 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And make sure that every single moment that you have with them, you show them love. You show them love. You'll see. Mary Dolan and Kathleen Smith with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerima and I made the show's The Music and Logo. Special thanks to Rob Olsh for recording clips aside of our conversation. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent listener supported artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. I write a newsletter where I talk about the making of some of these episodes and about music and film and generally about the creative process. You can find a link to the newsletter on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi Keish, here we go. Thanks for listening. Radiotopia from PRX. Did you hear the key change episode that I did with Jason Schwartzman? If so, do you remember him telling the story of how Davie Annelson discovered him and got him to audition for Rushmore? Well, that Davie Annelson is one of the kitchen sisters, along with Nikki Silva. And they are the award-winning producers of so many podcast stories and radio series. And they're also my fellow Radiotopians. And they've got a new series that ties all this together. Because this year, for the first time, there's going to be an Oscar for achievement in casting. And the kitchen sisters are going to take us behind the scenes to meet the Academy Award nominees and learn about the mysterious, fascinating world of film casting. Plus, it's hosted by four-time Oscar winner Francis McEnormon. So check out the kitchen sisters present, everyone's a casting director, the first ever Academy Award for achievement in casting in the 98-year history of the Academy Awards. I can't wait to listen. Check it out at kitchencisters.org or wherever you get your podcasts.
