John Waters: “I’m so respectable I could puke”

Hey, Mark, you know I'm really massive techie, right?

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No.

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If you saw me at my local coffee shop in Showbiz North London, you'd probably mistake me for Neo from the Matrix. Without the illegal hacking or sunglasses indoors, obviously.

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What are you talking about? You're having some sort of breakdown? Do you actually even own a computer?

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This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

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Yes, a new to MUBI in the UK this March is the brilliant no Other choice from Park Chan Wook. If you're a regular listener of the show, you will have heard me reviewing the film and raving about it. Actually kind of struggling to describe it because it's a black comedy, it's a thriller, it's a social satire, it's about a man whose life starts to fall apart and he takes unreasonable measures to correct things. I was absolutely fascinated by it. I thought it was a terrific film and as I said, it's coming to MUBI in the UK from March 13th.

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You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.comkermodenmayo that's M-U-B-I.com Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free.

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There really is no other choice.

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Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

2:03

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

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and non film questions answered as best we can in Questions?

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There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer, now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. What do you think it would take, Mark? Hello.

2:27

Hello.

2:53

For this podcast to join the manosphere? And if we don't want to do that, what's the opposite? Okay, well, firstly, is the manosphere inherently. Does that mean inherently bad?

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Yes, it does. Yes. And stupid. And stupid. Childish and feeble and. Right. All the other things. So what?

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So the opposite is what? The something sphere.

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The.

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The rest of the world sphere. Normal sphere.

3:25

I think you and I are part of the dads of sphere, aren't we?

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I mean, effete. The effetosphere.

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Is that what we are?

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Is this. I think this is an effete podcast.

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I don't know. Are you suggesting that we're low on testosterone?

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Yeah, I'm sure that's true.

3:45

No, I'm sure that is true.

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What I mean is, if you're not part of that sphere, you've got to be part of another sphere, haven't you? And I'm just wondering what sphere we're a part of.

3:48

Well, I had a friend at school whose motto was moderation in all things, and you said something like that you were a militant moderate.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And I. So maybe we're part of the modder sphere. I mean, we're mods. We're mods, Simon, the mod.

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So the mod. It needs something. Extra syllables. It can't be the mod sphere. So the modusphere.

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The modusphere. Yeah. We're part of them. They're part of the manosphere. And we're part of the modusphere.

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Okay, all right, well, that'll. Unless someone else can come up with something better.

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The.

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A fetusphere doesn't really work, does it?

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Really? No, no. Also, I mean, I don't know that we're. That we're effete.

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No, I mean,

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I'm not. Listen, I have no problem with that. I mean, I would, you know, I would. I would be very proud to be called a feet. I'm just not sure that I thought. I'm pulling it off very well.

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Well, that's the kind of thing that you say if you're in the manosphere, Mark, and. Oh, sorry.

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Yeah.

4:54

Anyway, so maybe someone else can suggest what part of which sphere we're a part of have you.

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Have you ever been in the manosphere?

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Oh, I have always just hated all of it. Good going. Going back. I mean, we have touched on all this before, but when, you know, the lad mag thing was everywhere and loaded was the thing. It was just. I just found it repulsive from. From the word go. Because I guess this, you know, if you're. If you've never been one of the lads, then you always felt excluded by all of that.

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So that was.

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That was my take on it.

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Also. There was a really nasty side to it. I mean, a really nasty side to it. And let us not forget that that was the era in which one of those lad mags published an advice column by a now much loved national treasure celebrity who advised somebody who'd broken up with their girlfriend that if they cut. That if they cut their girlfriend's face, no one else would want them. I am not making this up. It's a matter of historical fact. That was the, the, you know, the, the jolly side of the. It's just a joke, love. Age of the lad mag.

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Yeah. Anyway, that's all gone. So we're not part of that. We're part of the other sphere. Whatever that sphere is in, we're part of the other sphere. And if the modder sphere is fine, because also it sounds like modest. Oh, I see.

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The modest sphere. Yeah, that's actually very good.

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Okay, so modest fear.

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How about the dither sphere? The dither sphere.

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Oh, that sounds good.

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We're just. We're just dithering around on the edges of things.

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Dithersphere. Sounds like a. Sounds like a village in Yorkshire.

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Do you do this thing that if. Does the good lady professor, her indoor. No, that's mine. Does the good lady ceramicist, her indoors ever ask you to do any odd jobs around the house?

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Not anymore, no.

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Fine. Okay. Right.

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I mean, occasionally she might try it. Like she might say, I've bought a shelf. Yes. I'll go. Have you?

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Good luck.

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There's a guy down. I have this. As I think many times before, DIY is scabbing. What you need to do is hire someone and pay them money because they're better at it than you are. And.

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Was that Jeremy Hardy?

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He said it was Jeremy Hardy, yes. The late Jeremy Hardy, who said, DIY scabbing, which is the perfect excuse for not doing.

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And just to explain it. That's right. The reason DIY scabbing is it's taking work away from people whose employment is to put up your shelf is not

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really something that you hear a Lot of these days. Is it? But someone who's like a strike breaker, who would.

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Is that not a word that's used anymore?

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I don't think so. Do you hear it? I mean, industrial relations and all that kind of stuff.

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I mean, it used to. It used to be the. The most, you know, egregious insult. If you. If that word was like really loaded, wasn't it? Yeah.

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If you were working when there was a strike, all that kind of stuff. So therefore, when Jeremy Hardy, who was very much a man of the old left, said it, everybody knew exactly what he was talking about. And it is, of course, the perfect excuse for being part of the dither sphere, the dinosaur.

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I think that's what we are. I think with the dither sphere, I'm going to live with that.

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Okay. Correspondenceobenameo.com if you can come up with something better. What are you going to be doing professionally speaking in this podcast?

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I'm going to be dithering around some films. Simon wizard of the Kremlin Rebuilding, which is. Which stars Josh o'. Connor. I mean, if only he could get more work. He just. Wow.

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You go to the. When I went to the cinema the other day to see Project Hail Mary, the, you know, all the trailers come up. He's in all of them.

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I know, I know. He is the hardest working man in show business. And Glen Rothen, which is the new film by Brian Cox, who of course you interviewed on a previous show.

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Yes. Although in a. In a Christopher Nolan kind of. Kind of way. I haven't done that yet.

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No. So just to explain, because. Because this is a prerecorded show because Simon and I are currently off there. If you're. Last week you will have heard Simon interviewing Brian Cox. He hasn't done that interview yet, but it has already gone out, at which point he will have seen the film. So when we get to talking about Glen Rothen, which I've seen, but I haven't heard the Brian Cox interview, which went out last week, because it hasn't happened yet.

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Hasn't happened yet.

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Simon won't be able to comment on my review of Glen Rothen because I

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haven't seen it yet.

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Because he hasn't seen it yet. Although he's already interviewed Brian Cox, which has gone out when he had seen it. So if.

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So basically, if you could listen to these takes backwards in a Christopher Nolan kind of way, everything will make sense. Going forwards, not so much. Also, we have a special guest who is the legendary John Walters, which you've done.

9:31

Yes. I've done the interview with John Waters. There is a trash season at the bfi. And John Waters, who of course started off in very, very outrageous independent movies like Pink Flamingos and Multiple Maniacs, then went on to make Hairspray which was then stage show and then a remake film. He's now now considered to be a national treasure and celebrated son of Baltimore. So yeah, I'll be talking to John

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Waters and reviews in take two. What's going on there?

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Two reissues. There is an anniversary reissue of Bridget Jones's Diary. Just take it. Take a punt on how old Bridget Jones's Diary is now.

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Simon is it must be half a century.

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No, 25 years. Not half a century. 25 years. And Akira is back in cinemas, apparently also in IMAX cinemas.

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And in take two you get even more of the good stuff, including the five question Film Club.

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Three questions, your majesty in which ultras

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get to vote on which film available on streaming they'd like an intro to. And Mark ignores it and does what he wants. And in one frame back the feature that gives you extended viewing for a weekly cinematic release of our interview of the legendary John Waters. We've been asking you for your favorite John Waters film, so head on over to our paid patreon if you'd like to join the club. Plus all the other top quality content ad free and in video and high def video, which I really don't like. Also questions semesters in which we answer the question, what TV show would you love to see on the big screen? The emails to correspondencecodemo.com this one from James Morell.

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Okay.

11:16

Vanguardista. Dear Rocky the punchy one and Rocky the alien one. You've been discussing quotes from modern films that will pass the test of time.

11:17

Yes.

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Which you have.

11:24

Which is amaze, amaze, amaze was the one that we think.

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Yes, that's right. Yeah. As a longtime disciple to the Church of the Witter, every time it's brought up I find myself involuntary articulating my answer. I've used it so many times in my professional life, in my personal life, particularly recently, when things certainly haven't been. You say it trippingly. Would that it were so simple.

11:28

Yes, very true.

11:47

It has become my words to live by with everything going on. Would that it were so simple. And the more I thought about this email from James, the more I thought he's absolutely onto something. Because so many of. I'll try not to go off on one. But so many of the problems that are out there are made by people who have reduced everything to a level of simplicity that is moronic. Yes. And I read yesterday this is a piece by Tom Friedman in the New York Times. He talked about a thing called a wicked problem. Have you heard of what a wicked problem is defined as a problem that resists quick fixes or permanent solutions.

11:48

Okay.

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The outcomes are never final. There are just better or worse outcomes. There is no perfect pre existing template for solving it. In other words, like the Middle east for example. All of that kind of stuff. So when you hear people taking a hugely complex issue and making it simple, it's just not true. So as James says, would that it were so simple. But it's not. And so therefore.

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Anyway, there you go. Actually I'm amazed that when we were having the conversation about which modern lines will stick around that didn't. That wasn't one of them. Because there was. There was weeks, months that we were repeating. Would that it was so simple. Trippingly. Would that it was so simple.

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It is fantastic.

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It is absolutely. Come sit with me on the divan. I love that scene. I love that film. Actually. That whole film is great.

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Josie in southwest London. Thank you for your wonderful witterings over the years. I've been listening since my teens and I'm now in my 30s. A lot has changed but you've been a constant companion. My husband and I are recent new parents. Congratulations. So cinema trips have become complicated. But we recently went to a parent and baby screening of Project Hail Mary at the Barbican in East London and had the most wonderful experience. Before the film a pre recorded message from one of the Barbican's film curators explained all the baby friendly accommodations. A box of emergency supplies, a cozy baby nest subtitles so you can follow the plot over the crying. And gently raised which I think, I think you just need anyway. And gently raised lights so people can move around easily. They truly thought of everything. And tickets were six quid.

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Wow.

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The 10:45am Saturday slot would once have felt bizarre but post baby it made perfect sense. The babies and parents were brilliantly well behaved and it was genuinely lovely to watch Ryan and Rocky's intergalactic friendship unfold in a room full of other tired but film loving families. A wonderful experience and a heartfelt shout out to the Barbican new parents. It's highly recommended. Keep up the good work and see when the cruise stops in tooting. Okay, that's very good. So a whole number of things on there. So that's a movie in the heart of London for six quid.

14:08

That's amazing.

14:41

That is astonishing. And I think there should be subtitles and everything I've got used. We put subtitles and everything, as I think I've mentioned to you before. It's because child one just used to eat crisps very loudly and so we'd have subtitles. I'm just going to hear what's being said. But because there's so much. There's usually quite a racket going on. I think subtitles be very good. So, Josie, thank you very much indeed. I like that very much.

14:42

Can I just remind you once again, as I do whenever this comes up, that Emma Freud on social media, you know, people have little descriptions of, you know, who they are. Like, I think yours is. I don't know what yours is, but, you know, writer. Mine is like bassist or whatever.

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Mine just says nil desperandum, I think.

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Nil desperandum. That's right. Yours is nil desperandum. Which. Which means. Simon.

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Well, don't despair.

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Great.

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Which is a wonderful thing. Emma Freud's social media tag is. Bit tired. Yeah, always loved that.

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Kind of. And David Badills just says Jew.

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That's right, yes.

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Which is.

15:37

Which is.

15:37

Which is fantastic. Anyway, correspondence kevinameo.com tell us something that's out that I haven't seen, even though I have interviewed Brian Cox. Having seen it.

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Having seen it. Yes. So the Timey Wimey Thing, Glen Rothen, which is the feature directorial debut from Brian Cox, the interview was on a previous show, I think was last week's show. Go back and listen to it, which I will do when it actually happens.

15:46

Yes.

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And I.

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And I really. I have an informed opinion about the film then.

15:58

Yeah, absolutely. So Brian Cox also stars in the film as Sandy, owner of a family whiskey distillery in Scotland. So he runs the distillery with the help of Shirley Henderson's Jess, who is now in charge of all matters distilling. Alan Cumming is his estranged brother Donald, who went to Chicago many moons decades ago and hasn't been back. In fact, he didn't even come back for his father's funeral. Donald is a blues expert. He runs a jazz club where his daughter Amy, played by Alexandra Shipp, tends bar and also sings. And he has no desire to go back to Scotland until two things happen. Firstly, his bar burns down. And secondly, he gets a letter from his brother, played by Brian Cox, implying that he's not in the greatest health and pretty much begging him to come and visit. Here is a clip from the trailer.

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Your native land.

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Nice to have you back, Donald? Sure.

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My wee brother.

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It's been nearly 40 years since you left for America. So you came then?

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Did you have to march him to the airport at gunpoint?

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I don't know what happened between you two. This is a great opportunity for you guys to clean all this up.

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You were missed at his funeral. He never missed me.

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No, but I did. I've decided to resign as chairman of the distillery. My brother will take over the reins.

17:29

What?

17:43

Yeah.

17:45

Which is not what he was expecting. So the film's written by David Ashton, with whom Brian Cox had previously worked on the radio series McClelvey. And is it McClavy or McCleavy? I think it's McClavy, isn't it? Anyway, he also has a small role in the film. Brian Cox has described the film, and as I said, you haven't done the interview yet, but you will have done by the time this goes out. And I imagine that he will have used this phrase, because he's used it quite a lot, that it is a love letter to Scotland. Now, that phrase tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Glen Rothen. We've been talking about Brian Cox recently, because we were talking about Silence of the Lambs and Manhunter, and throughout his career, Brian Cox has played plenty of very dark characters. So whether it's Titus on stage or whether it's doing the definitive Hannibal Lecter in Manhunter, as we know, well, you

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know, the best opinions differ.

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Or the predatory Big John in Lie, which is a very controversial movie. As I said, Brian Cox's agent said, you can't take that role on.

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It's.

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You know, it's too dark. He played Herman Goering in Nuremberg in the series of that. And of course, most famously recently, he was the tyrannical Logan Roy in succession, a character who became so sort of associated with Brian Cox in the public eye that people would apparently go up to Brian Cox and ask him to tell them to F off, which Brian Cox would then oblige. So the thing about it is, with all of those characters, it is impossible to imagine any of those characters writing a love letter to anything. In fact, you know, it would be poison pen letters all the way. Even when you take into account the fact that. I mean, I've. I've interviewed Brian Cox quite a few times, and I. I did some stuff when his autobiography came out. It's a very good autobiography. He talks about the fact that if you're going to play a dark character, an evil character, wicked character, what you have to do is find the point of entry. Because everybody started as a child and everybody's path to who they became, you know, people aren't just born wicked. That's not how it works. And in fact, you know, we talked for a while about the fact that, you know, a colleague of his had ended up playing Mango Mussolini recently. And he said the problem is it's sort of two dimensional character and that's, there's, you know, there's no way in. So as far as this is concerned, there is, there is, there is no struggle in playing Sandy. You don't have to sort of dig deep to find the goodness in Sandy. In fact, it's funny because listening to that clip, it sounded to me a little bit like when he says the thing about, oh, did you know, did you have to take him, drag him from the airport? Which sounded exactly like Fulton Mackay in, you know, in Local Hero. Everything about the delivery, everything about the sort of the slightly sardonic tone of it, but you also know that that's a, that's a good as gold, salt of the earth character. So Sandy is that guy. Sandy is the guy who stayed there, who's looked after the brother, who's staying, looked after the family business after Donald flew off to the States. Even though Donald has reasons of his own for having flee. And we learn of these reasons through pretty sort of straightforward join the dots filmmaking technique of flashbacks. We, you know, we see flashbacks from their younger years. We see the adult characters looking around at the estate and then seeing their past lives. We see Donald's mother telling him to go, to go and not come back to it, to get away from this, you know, this village. We hear the voice of his dominating father telling him to never show your face again. And we hear Jess talking about her own abandonment by the person that she thought she was closest to, who then left her without saying goodbye. So, you know that there was, there's some thing in the past, but it's never, it's never a big mystery of what it is. And as I said, actually the ways in which the film explains to you what it is is pretty bald. It is that thing about here's a. Somebody looks off screen and here's a flashback to the thing. So now he's back. And in time honored tradition, because he's back, they're going to face the past, they're going to heal old wounds, they're going to make new futures. There is nothing surprising about the narrative, which is a kind of cross between Local hero and mother's pride. And if you remember, when I was reviewing Mother's Pride, I said to you that a colleague of mine had left early because they needed to get in the queue for a screening of Amaze, Amaze, Amaze. And as a result of it they'd only watched like the first 20 minutes of Mother's Pride and then they'd gone off. But they were still able to pretty much tell me every single thing that happened in Mother's Pride after that. Yeah, the same is true of Glen Rothen. There is nothing in Glen Rothen that you're going to go, well I hadn't seen that coming. Not least because the way in which, I mean it's interesting, you know, Brian Cox has worked with a number of different directors and like really inventive and interesting directors, but his own filmmaking style is really very unshowy. It's, it's like this is how, you know, I'd explain the drama in a way that is really, really, I mean bordering on clunky in terms of the absolute. There, there are going to be no, no gaps left here in any nuts and bolts.

18:53

Is that what you're.

23:08

Yes, it's nuts and bolts, but I mean I'm actually surprised by just how nuts and bolts it was. And you know, whereas Logan Roy, you know, dripped acid into the ears of everyone who would listen. This is as soft hearted and as saccharine natured and as honeydew flavored. You remember the whole thing at the center of Mother's Ruin. Is that the beer that they make

23:09

you mean Mother's Pride?

23:32

Mother's Pride. I beg your pardon, What's Mother's Ruin is. Mother's Ruin is whiskey. Gin. Mother's Ruin is gin. Mother's Pride. Sorry, that's a Freudian slip for you. Freudian slip. When you say one thing but mean your mother. When you say one thing but mean your mother's pride that you remember the whole thing is that they make a beer that's got a sweet taste to it. Something to do with. Because they've, because the guy's got the honey and they said it's like honey flavored beer. Well, this is like that. This is not whiskey galore. This is not whiskey sour. This is whiskey. Absolutely sweet as it comes. It is solidly soppy sentimental fare. And I think that probably explains why it is that, that it's one few fans among critics, most of whom I think expected something tougher edged from Cox. I have to say for me, I feel kind of affectionately towards it and I. This is, I want to be completely clear about this, I've interviewed Brian Cox a number and I like him very much. I think he's an amazing actor. But when some, when somebody who has really made their name doing very challenging work makes something themselves and it's just as sweet as it could possibly be. Like I said, not just bordering on the saccharine, but absolutely embracing. It's a big warm hug of a movie that he has described as a love letter to Scotland that just basically wants. Wants to go look at this landscape. Isn't it amazing? Look, wouldn't you know, wouldn't you love to be here then? I think, well, fine. He's kind of earned the right to do it. I mean, it is in the same bracket as Fisherman's Friends and Mother's Ruin.

23:34

Incidentally, Mother's Pride.

25:10

Mother's Pride. I'm going to keep doing it. What was the other one that I kept doing that with? There was something else that I kept doing it with and you had to keep correcting me. He's not even the best Jared in the movie.

25:11

Anyway.

25:20

There are, I've described movies in the past as, you know, goes down nicely with a cup of tea and a biscuit. Mrs. On a Wednesday afternoon. This is probably best viewed on a, you know, late in the evening on a big sofa with a roaring log fire and a member of your family snuggled up under a blanket and a large glass of Glenmorangie or something similar. I mean, it is no work of art, but as a kind of softer side of Brian Cox, I felt affectionate towards it. I mean, as a piece of filmmaking, as I said, it is surprisingly nuts and bolts and there are no surprises in terms of the narrative. But I kind of think Brian Cox has earned the right to give big, soft hearted. I love Scotland and wouldn't it be nice if we all just got along a little better?

25:22

Can I add a plate of shortbread, maybe?

26:16

A plate of shortbread, yes. And maybe a Tunnex. Yes.

26:18

There was an April fool that I saw which had a. There was a Tunnex Easter egg which was like a. A two foot egg which was split in the middle exactly like a Tunnex tea cake. And I assume it was an April fool because it was only out on April 1st, but it did look rather, rather tasty. Still to come after the break, Mark will be talking about the wizards. All right, I'll do it because you do it. I don't find a place rebuilding the wizard of the Kremlin. Plus his interview with John Waters and a public service announcement. The Laughter Lift will be back again and we can only apologize.

26:22

Foreign

26:56

hey, Mark Kermod yes, Simon Mayo?

27:00

When we first started our journey in wizardtainment, did you worry that people might not listen or care about what we had to say?

27:02

I did. What if we made fools of ourselves?

27:09

Well, thankfully it turns out people love it specifically when we make fools of ourselves, so we needn't have worried.

27:12

That's good because we're very good at that.

27:18

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28:01

Okay, our guest today is the Pope of trash. Cult filmmaker John Waters started out in the late 60s making low budget outrageous films such as Mondo Trasho, Pink Flamingo, Multiple Maniacs, Female Trouble. He then went on to more mainstream success with films like Hairspray, Crybaby, Serial Mama, Dirty Shame. Mark spoke to him ahead of a new season at the BFI in London. Trash the wildest films you've ever seen celebrating filmmakers and movies. That revelation in trash cinemas. Low budget underground weirdness on the big screen in all their trashy glory. And how was the line when you spoke to him?

28:37

Well yeah, let me just set something up here. I mean I've interviewed John John Waters before, but when you interview him online, he sort of sits in this chair surrounded by these posters and he doesn't use headphones and we were doing the interview on the Miracle of Zoom. And what that meant was occasionally we couldn't hear each other very well. So you'll hear in the interview, at one point I asked him specifically about Plan 9 from outer space. And he starts giving an answer that seem be not about Plan 9 from outer space. He's talking about Glenn or Glenda, which is a previous film that Ed Wood made. The other thing, if you're watching this on video, I had said at the beginning, are we doing this on video? Do I need to turn the lights on? They said, no, no, we're not going to use the video. We have used the video, which is why it looks like John Waters is in this fabulously lit throne of Trash and I appear to be in a cave because I hadn't turned the lights.

29:16

Okay, all right.

30:01

Okay.

30:02

So prepare yourselves for birdsong.

30:02

Yes, folks, this isn't any cheap X rated movie or any fifth rate porno play. This is the show you want. Lady Divine's Cavalcade of Perversions, the salesiest show on earth.

30:06

Not actors, not paid imposters, but real,

30:15

actual filth who have been carefully screened in order to present to you the most flagrant violation of natural law known to man. You want to see them?

30:18

And we've got them.

30:26

Every possible thing you can think of. Come on, ladies, come right up this way. Come see Lady Divine's Cavalcade. Come on. John Waters, welcome to the show.

30:28

Thank you for having me.

30:38

Tell me firstly something about the BFI season celebrating Trash. What can we expect in that season?

30:39

You can expect a good time, no pretension. And looking back on a time that's very hard to imagine because in some ways it's incredibly politically incorrect. But it's so ludicrous that all you can do is marvel. I don't use the word camp, but some of these movies are so bad. They're great, but most of them are just so great. They're amazing. And they were made to have the exact tone they have today. It just took 50 years to catch on, so people could understand that.

30:46

Take me back to the time when Trash was something that was edgy, that was genuinely transgressive, which is so different to nowadays in which it seems to be tailor made. Take me back to that. That time. What was it like?

31:15

Well, many of these films, like Herschel Gordon Lewis and Russ Meyer, were not meant to be funny in any way. They were as real exploitation films, not in art theaters, would never go near these movies today. That's where they play but no to then they were exploitation films and they were shown in the really the poorest neighborhoods and the lowest kind of audience appeal. And they wanted gore, they wanted sex. And especially in drive ins, whenever you saw she Honked Her Horn, that was a big deal. And so I think it's come a long way. None of these were made to be funny. People thought people were watching sexy, watching Faster Pussycat. They didn't think it was funny. People were screaming and puking and blood feeds. They thought they were scared. They didn't think it was funny. So these films were not made to be ironic.

31:29

It's funny because obviously here in the UK we never had the drive in market and we always had a much more restrictive censorship market. What kind of people were going to the drive ins?

32:23

What you had was known as the nasties, which all these films probably would have been included. I, I had a long run with the nasties. It took the London center board almost 20 or 25 years to finally agree to show Pink Flamingos uncut. And there's a really good article you can find online that explains every single one of the cuts and how they eventually were absorbed by real America.

32:33

All right, well, tell us about what frame of mind you were in when you were making Pink Flamingos and Multiple Maniacs. What kind of world were you making those films in?

32:57

I was making the films to make myself and my friends laugh. And my friends were very mixed. They were black and white, gay and straight, rich and poor. And those people didn't hang around together. We were in the. We weren't hippies, we were yippees. We went to, we didn't believe in peace and violence. We were, we were for comic terrorism where you made the audience laugh by, by making these movies that were in a way an act of terrorism against the tyranny of good taste. I think every one of these movies in this series could fit under that. And the audiences delighted in that. They delighted in the rule breaking, they delighted in the censorship things falling each time. You got to remember when many of these movies came out, frontal nudity wasn't even illegal, much less sex. That came way later.

33:06

I remember that there was a famous quote about Pink Flamingos. I may be misquoting, but it was used to have this on a poster on the wall behind you in your office. It said something on the lines of who are these people? Where do they come from?

33:53

Another quote. But it was for female trouble, not pink. And it was at the time a very, very middle brow critic. And it said, who are these People, where do they come from? Where do they go when the sun goes down? Isn't there a law or something? That was the ad. We put that in the ad for female trouble. But Pink Flamingos had the same thing. They said, Variety said, beyond a doubt, one of the most repulsive films and disgusting films in film history. And last year they apologized and picked it as one of the top 100 comedy films of all times, which included Charlie Chaplin and the Marx Brothers. So times change, values change, and Pink Flamingos got named of the National Registry as a great American film. How could that be? I'm trying to picture that screening. Was it when crackers yelled do my mama that they said, yes, this is the film that really should represent this government. It's great, great irony to me, but I take the award with real seriousness and proud.

34:07

But also, the hilarious thing about that line that you just quoted is that was a joke about porno Chicago. At the same time that people were throwing their arms up about your films, there was a kind of weird porno chic in America, wasn't there?

35:07

There was, but we got the great ad for Pink Flamingos that we use from Judith Christ, who was a major critic at the time, said, goes beyond pornography the nearest American film to the allegian dog. So she got it. She got it that it was trying to break the rules and taboos at the same time in delighting. We were in on the joke and so was the audience.

35:20

So, John, what kind of people were coming to see those films when they first came out?

35:44

Hipsters. Whatever you would call hipsters then. Gays. Gay people that didn't get along with other gay people. Hippies that didn't get along with other hippies. The radical lab, pretty much, but all in different ways, not the normal ones. And the word spread and the word spread and people would bring people back to see it. You have to remember, this was before the Internet or anything. So midnight movies was the only place that these kind of moviegoers could hook up. And everybody came stoned. I mean, there was open pot smoking in every midnight screening completely, and people yelling out, the audience dressed as the costumes. And it would start once a week and then spread to two a week. And in Los Angeles, in one theater, it eventually played 10 years at least one night a week. That's pretty good legs, as variety calls a long run.

35:49

Do you think the essence of cult movie making is that you're not trying to make a cult movie, you're just trying to make a movie that you like?

36:35

Well, if you are trying to make a cult movie. It almost always fails. All the films that come out today, that said, they're very John Waters esque. I usually hate those movies because they're trying too hard. You can never try too hard. Or you try so hard that you don't realize they're funny. The greatest ones, like Ed Wood, he didn't think he was being funny when he made those movies, but yet Herschel Gordon Lewis, who made Blood Feast, he knew that he was not appealing to intellectuals, but he certainly laughed at how extreme he could be with the gore. He invented the gore movies. The same thing that Spielberg used in Ryan's, I would say Shaving Ryan's Privates. But that's the porn title, whatever the title was. I forget.

36:44

There's. There's a. An interesting thing about Ed Wood, which is that when that ridiculous, you know, Golden Turkey Awards thing, the Michael Medved thing, they voted it the worst movie of all time. Categorically not the worst movie of all time. Actually a quite an interesting film.

37:26

Yes. And the world, of course, it. Tackling a subject that no one had until Psycho. Psycho was the next movie that attacked especially killer trans. That was the first one that introduced it because Anthony Perkins, at the end, they had to explain to the audience, it's like what trans even meant. So he was definitely ahead of his time. But there were things in it that really made me laugh. He would just have random sample shots of crowds walking in New York and said, people coming, people good. As if every single person was thinking about getting in drag. That's how he seemed to treat the subject, that every single person was drag queen, really deep down.

37:45

And how important is it to understand that when he was making Glenn or Glenda and when he was making Plan nine, he was trying to make the best movie possible?

38:24

Absolutely. He was not trying to be funny. He didn't know what the word camp meant and he wouldn't abuse it if he did. It was made to be a successful horror film in his mind, to be a film that could play grindhouses, which they were called at the time. But it was a huge market. They were incredibly successful. All those kind of movies, the movies in this series, many of them were very successful financially.

38:35

And John, how do you feel about the fact that as you kind of alluded to, you've gone from being the. The person who was thought to be, you know, bringing society down to being now one of the most revered and in your own particular district, beloved. And I mean, you are. You're a national treasure now.

38:59

I'M so respectable, like a puke. They even had that on the wall, I think, at my Academy Awards museum show. It's true, the films are worse now actually. If you take political correctness and all this stuff, the lines are even worse. But more people see them now than they ever did. Criterion releases them all. The class possible accolades I've had have been given to me and I take that with great honor. I don't find that funny. I don't feel like. Not like Janis Joplin when she famous scene in a documentary when she went back to her high school reunion which she was famous to just prove and they were all still mean to her. I don't care about the people from my past that put me down because of that now it's not a last time. I never cared about them then. Even then my, my movies were always crowded. Even when they got all bad reviews, the audience was in on it. And they knew because they hated at the time the critics were either us or them. They were called straight. That didn't mean gay or heterosexual. It meant you smoked pot or you didn't, you were hippies or you weren't. And the critics hated this kind of new movement. They found most of them really did. There were a few supporters like Kevin Thomas at the LA Times, a few reporters at Variety. There were some Vincent can beat Next. The New York Times to this day, even when it was re released, never has reviewed Pink Flamingos. It was not all the news that spit the print. But Vincent Canby did write about it as a phenomena and said I had faulty toilet training with my mother. Threw down the paper and said you absolutely did not leave me out of it.

39:17

John Waters talking to Mark. There'll be more in just a moment. Question for you, Mark.

40:57

Yes.

41:02

When people of the left complain about political correctness.

41:04

Yes.

41:07

Is that okay? Because he complained twice about political.

41:07

Oh, yes.

41:13

And normally people who do that. Oh, okay. Well, political correctness is there kind of to make the world.

41:14

I know. Well, I should say two things. The first thing is I like John Waters very much. I don't agree with everything John Waters says. And the second thing is that his, his, his whole sort of ethos which is just, you know, overturn the statues, just kick against everything. I think is, you know, you and I have discussed in the past the private eye thing about just, just go for everyone and, and don't discriminate. And that's very much a John Waters thing. I mean, you know, as, as I said, I mean I've talked about this Before I have issues with Pink Flamingos, but. But I.

41:19

Which we'll get to, I think.

41:52

Yeah, but I think the most remarkable thing is the fact that. That John Waters has gone from being this, you know, the scourge of society to a national treasure whose films have now been absolutely part of the mainstream establishment, despite the fact that he remains singly and solely himself.

41:53

I. I hadn't heard the term yippees before, but I've looked it up and it is someone who was part of the Youth International party from the 1960s, a radical countercultural revolutionary. So that.

42:12

That's right.

42:25

Kind of describes exactly where we are. More with John Waters and Mark in just a moment.

42:26

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42:35

Okay, so now we get more with John Waters talking to Mark. And was he talking about toilet training? Mark, Was that talking about the fact

43:25

that a newspaper review of Pink Flamingos had said that he had clearly had poor toilet training as a child, which his mother replied, no, you did not leave me out of it.

43:33

All right, well, here's part two.

43:43

You were in the documentary recently about Scala. So over here, Scala was something of a kind of a life raft for those of us who are interested in different kinds of movie making. I saw. I saw Pink Flamingos there.

43:44

There I. I saw Scholar at full tilt. Cult craziness. It was absolutely a cathedral to cult movies. It was an exciting time. If you didn't go there and you were alive at the time, I don't. You must have pretty square because it was the coolest place in the world.

43:58

But you said in the documentary that you thought some of the. Some of the crowds at Scala put the American crowds to shame, that you thought we were wilder than you lot.

44:13

It seemed to be. And it was also encouraged in that theater. Maybe, maybe the management was more permissible than some of the other managements at the time because many of the midnight theaters played normal art movies in the day they didn't have audiences is coming dressed as the characters in Truffaut movies that would be funny, but they don't do that. So I think that some of the managements of the theater were thrilled at the grosses but horrified by the audiences.

44:22

How does it feel that these films are now going to be part of a season at the British Film Institute, which is a, you know, thoroughly upstanding cathedral to art and suddenly these movies are right there being celebrated by. By such a institution.

44:56

I always already had a great tribute, one man retrospective at the British Film Institute about all my films in the past. So I feel like I beat him to it. I was a great, great honor that it doesn't get much better than that. So the British Film Institute has been very supportive of my work from the beginning. But to be included in this festival and see all these movies playing in a hollowed place. But the British Film Institute has always had a great sense of humor about weird films and uncommercial mov. I don't think it's surprising that they're showing it, but I think it's a great honor and I'm proud to be with most every one of those directors maybe met.

45:12

What are some of your favorites that are playing in the season?

45:53

Well, I love Paul Marcy's movie, but you know, I have to stick up. He won't allow it to be called Andy Warhol's trash. I mean Andy is the first person that that really branded name of the director. He was like Walt Disney. So I give Andy a little more credit than Paul does, but I think it's a great movie and I think Joe d' Alessandro is one of the greatest underground male stars ever. I think he is the top, top one and he's still alive and doing well. I had dinner with him last year and I George Kuchar, the Kuchar brothers are really a huge influence on me. Mike is still alive. I saw George right before he died. We were friends right up to the end. His ludicrous. He did Douglas Surf Colors and stuff before anybody did. Really, really early 60s. He was the first person to ever show a turd on film. He There's a shot of a turd in a toilet before Pink Flamingo. So he beat me to that. The movies are crazy. They had the kind of stars we had, but yet they're incredibly. They're not outsider art. Because the Kuchar brothers knew what they were doing and they did right up till now.

45:56

Do you see the influence of those films in mainstream movies now?

47:00

Yes, all underground movies. I mean, even after the Warhol films, when Midnight Cowboy was being made. They tried to hire the Warhol people to bring him in. Yes, I think the influence is from my films is that everything is okay for humor. Pretty much. You can bring in anything. Certainly. Divine made all drag queens hip from then on. They all had an edge. When I was young, drag queens were so square. They wanted to be Miss America or they wanted to mother and stuff. Now all drag queens are made to. To make people nervous, which I like. I think all the thing. When all these movies were made, we watched the censorship laws fall. Fall. The very first thing. Ingmar Bergman was shown in Baltimore as a sex film. It was played in sex theaters. Monica, see her naked. There was. I even have an ad for the concession stand where you could order a Monica hot fudge sundae because that was how they were promoting it, which is pretty amazing. It's not what Bergman had in mind, but the censorship laws. First you could see a women's rear end, then breasts, then a man's ass, then and then. That's sort of the order it went in. And nowadays you can have a $800 million Hollywood movie that shows all those. Those things and get away with it. There's nothing left you can't show. That's why we did the end of Pink Flamingos. There wasn't a law against that. There is a law against that today in porno, but we didn't do it for scatological reasons. And the few people in my entire life that told me that scene turned them on. I ran from those people.

47:04

Is there anything in any of those movies? I suspect that you're somebody who never regrets anything. But is there anything in any of those films that you regret?

48:45

Oh, there's lines that make me cringe and desperate living. But then it comes to the point. Are villains allowed to say horrible things? Well, why not? I mean, I think it's probably even a more villainous thing to say today. But, yes, I can say the F word on American network television now, but I can't say the word fat on public television. It's a different F word. Things have changed. You can give out needles to junkies on the street today and in. By being like a nurse or something. But if you light a cigarette, you get the death penalty in America. So everything has changed. But there's always some rules to make fun of.

48:54

Do you think that cinema can still be subversive? Are there films nowadays that have the subversive powers that those films had when they were in their heyday?

49:34

Certainly they are. I love Gaspar. Noe's movies. Bruno Dumont, I loved. Eddington, I liked. There's some. So many great films that are still breaking boundaries everywhere. They just have to think of a new way to do it.

49:42

Because when you were saying all these, there are things that are. Now we're able to do that we couldn't do before, but there are other things that we're not able to do. Do you think that culture itself is in a. An exciting phase or a moribund phase?

49:55

I think for the first, I hate the extreme left and the extreme right. I'm in the radical middle right now because neither the right or the left have any humor and they have trigger words. Both sides now they both are politically correct on their side. So to me, I believe in the freedom of speech. I believe I should be able to yell fire in a crowded theater, even though that is a harmful thing to do. We have to put up with the worst of free speech to have free speech. And I think, just don't go. Don't listen to it. Don't turn off the television decision. Don't go to the movie theater. Don't read the book. I don't understand really censoring almost anything.

50:10

And what inspires you nowadays, what inspires

50:48

me is to continue laughing and making fun of the rules that liberals and myself live by. I still find everything. I went recently to a restaurant in San Francisco and they had a sign out front saying, meat slaughtered only by gay farmers. And they were not kidding. And I was astounded by that. You know, what, are you insane? But so to me, that's what I'm saying. Even the rules of my side I find equally as ludicrous as the rules I rejected from my parents. And it seems the liberals now have more rules than my parents did.

50:52

Do you think it's strange at all that you're. I mean, whenever I speak to people about you and your films, the thing. I mean, I remember the first time I saw Pink Flamingos, and my response was partly, who are these people? Where do they come from? And then over the years, I've interviewed you a couple of times. And I'm a great, you know, cult movie enthusiast. And you have sort of become, you know, somebody that we. That we love and we revere and that we feel, you know, in the. In safe. In the company of.

51:32

When you did not, in the beginning, feel that.

52:01

Yes, absolutely.

52:03

Some people did.

52:04

Did okay.

52:06

And all I needed was two or three. And I always say you only need three people to have a success besides your mother and the people you're sleeping with the second, the person who said, you need one more person. When you have that third person, your career begins.

52:07

Okay, what's, what's the best movie you've seen recently, John?

52:21

Well, my 10 best list is every year in New York Magazine. This year it was Eddington was my favorite. And this. And the sequel to Final Destination Number two, the second.

52:25

And for anyone who's going to the BFI season, who, who hasn't experienced the kind of movies that are playing there before, just prepare the way for them. What should they go in with? An open mind, a sense of humor. What do they need?

52:36

Well, they definitely need a sense of humor, but I don't think they would ever go to an open mind. Who would go to a trash film festival if you were religious, touchy, conservative. I, I don't know why you'd go if you haven't seen any of them. I'd start with Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill, because I gave Russ Meyer a quote for that, saying, not only is it the best movie ever made, it's the best movie that ever will be made. There's no better blurb than that. That's when I stopped words. I don't do them anymore.

52:49

John, thank you very much.

53:17

Thank you.

53:19

Thank you.

53:20

Trash. The wildest films you've ever seen. The season is at the BFI South bank in London, and it runs until April 30. Some of your favorite John Waters stuff is in take two for one frame back. I have to say, free speech fundamentalists drive me absolutely crazy. And someone who thinks they have a right to shout fire in a crazy, genuine just. It makes me think, what are you talking about?

53:21

That is absolutely the. The flashpoint, isn't it? And it's funny because I don't believe that either. I don't believe that you should have the right to shout fire in a movie theater. And. And so this is what I said about I don't agree with everything John Ward says, but nor do I feel that I need to. I mean, also, it is a weird thing because we've had this discussion many times before about Pink Flamingos. I mean, I have real problems with Pink Flamingos with one particular scene in Pink Flamingos, not the notorious scene at the end. And I think that actually part and parcel of this is. Is the whole question about extremity and shock for the sake of it. There is a radical side to it, but there is also a side to it that can be conservative. I thought it was very funny when he said that he was a radical moderate or radical middle of the road thinking about. I'm as annoyed with the extreme left as I am with the extreme right. But yeah, no, I mean, also, I should say I've interviewed John Waters several times over the years and it's always been exactly like that. He says exactly what comes into his head and I agree with about 60% of it. And I've told you the famous story with when I interviewed him at can with the reissue of Pink Flamingos, and there's a scene in Pink Flamingos involves a chicken, which I really objected to. And I said, the thing is, I can't ever forgive you for that scene. He said, oh, don't be ridiculous. He said, every people saw that scene and then they went straight out and ate a chicken sandwich. And I went, well, I didn't because I, you know, I'm a vegetarian. He went, yeah, okay, right. But, but it's not like you, you keep chickens as pets. And I went, well, actually, John, I do. And he paused and he went, all right, to you, I apologize. Everyone else can kiss my butt.

53:46

Okay, that, that comes up actually when we, when we get to one frame back. So we'll discuss more later correspondence@kevin amer.com Tell us something that's out and interesting

55:33

rebuilding, which is the complete antithesis of everything that, that John Water just been talking about. So this is a really beautifully low key, restorative neo western drama from writer director Max Walker Silverman, who made the 2022 Sundance hit a love song. Ensemble cast includes Lili Latorre, Megan Fahey, Carly Rice, and Oscar winner Amy Madigan. Remember Amy Madigan, okay, Who I think is fab alongside leading man. How does he find time in his schedule to do this? Josh o', Connor, the hardest working man in indie film showbiz. So Josh o' Connor plays Dusty, who's a rancher whose home and livelihood have been destroyed by wildfires, which is an all too common story in the US Due to a number of different things, you know, climate change, all the rest of it, that wildfires are becoming an increasing problem. And we've talked about documentaries about wildfires. This is, this is a really major issue. So he winds up in a trailer in a temporary FEMA camp where others who have lost their homes and their lives, and not their lives, their livelihoods, are now sheltering. Dusty is split from his wife. He now seems to be something of an isolated loner. But fate has brought him to this point where some form of accounting or reconciliation is due not only with his wife, but also with his young daughter, from whom he appears to have been estranged. He doesn't appear to have been around very much, but now he has to be around, even to the point of reading her favorite bedtime stories. Here's a clip around here. That night he cried himself to sleep thinking about all the places he would never see again. Suddenly he was back on the Chisolm Trail, saving the princess from the Black Knight and hang gliding over the Grand Canyon. When he looked down, expecting to see the magic boots, all he saw were his own bare feet. In that moment, he realized it wasn't the boots that were magic, it was him. The thing I like about that clip is it does tell you a lot about the film tonally. I mean, there's a touch of Nomadland about it. There's a, you know, the sense of people who've become displaced or dispossessed finding an unlikely sense of community. I mean, he doesn't want to be in that trailer camp, but when he's there, he meets other people who all have their own stories and who all turn out to be basically decent, kind, helpful people. And we've had quite a lot of correspondence over the past few years, I suppose, and people saying, look, you can say what you like about America, particularly at the moment with everything. Don't confuse that with the American people. And this is a story about the worst situations bringing out the best in people. It's shot amid these Colorado locations that are, on the one hand, they're like the end of the world, but on the other hand, they're also strangely beautiful. In fact, there is a line in it in which Dusty says to his daughter, he says, it's pretty, ain't it? And you could say that this is like a typical American indie film in which not much happens against some spectacular scenery. And I confess that when I went in, because I knew a little bit about the film, I sort of thought that might be what it is. What I wasn't expecting was just how much it got under my skin, that it's. It's quiet advocacy of endurance and friendship and kindness. And these people just being decent to each other really made me feel uplifted. I mean, part of it is down to Josh o'. Connor. And I think that he has. He is an amazing actor. He has the ability to hold the attention whilst doing very, very little, which is a really, really. You remember there was that famous thing about Michael Caine talking about the difference between stage acting and screen acting was the screen acting, you move everything right down. And I know that's almost become a cliche. But the fact is there are some people who can do it and some people who can't do it and the people who can do it, you know that Josh o' Connor is going to be employed as a screen actor for the rest of his life because he can do it. But it's also just good to see a film that manages to celebrate all the best aspects of coming to terms with pain, coming to terms with loss, without descending into cheesy cliche. And I mean, compare this, for example, to Glen Rothenburg. You could say, well, you know, they're both very soft hearted films about the good in people in these circumstances, yet they are completely, I mean, stylistically the opposite ends of the track. And for me, this is when film really speaks to me. I mean, I went into this with a heavy heart and I came out of it feeling genuinely uplifted and not a little surprised by that and ready to love my fellow man and woman anew. It is a good film in the, in every sense of the word. Good.

55:45

It's a boring title, don't you think? It sounds like an architecture magazine.

1:01:14

Yeah. And Rebuilding and partly Simon. That's why I went in with a heavy heart, because it's a boring title and an uninspiring premise. But I promise you, the film is neither of those things.

1:01:18

You mentioned Josh o' Connor being the king of indie cinema. He's also. Because he's in the new Spielberg film. Oh, you can basically do anything.

1:01:31

I know, but isn't. But hooray for somebody at this point in their career.

1:01:38

Yes.

1:01:43

Still, you know, doing like, I think when we spoke to him the last time we spoke to him and he'd made that really sort of strange little quirky indie movie about the, you know, the, the, the, the guy digging up and stealing buried treasure. No, I mean, it's just. Yeah. Good for him. He's a good guy.

1:01:43

So I think I'm just checking the notes. Yes, it is actually that time again, Mark. It's the bit that everyone tunes in for because we're broadcasting on medium wave, obviously.

1:02:03

And it's the bit they look at

1:02:14

their clocks and they go, Yep, it's that time again. It's laughter lift. Good.

1:02:15

I feel good about that.

1:02:19

Yes, I do too. Here we go. However, Mark, I do have some bad news. I thought I'd make, make dinner last night, but I ruined it. I burnt the Hawaiian pizza.

1:02:21

Right.

1:02:32

I should have cooked it at aloha temperature.

1:02:33

Okay, that's good. I, I like that joke. It's very good.

1:02:37

I was in a woke pub in Showbiz North London at the weekend and a man walked in and put a Sony Walkman from Japan, a Blaupunked car stereo from Germany, a Bang and Olufsen hi Fi from Denmark, and a generic branded boombox from China on the bar. And the barman said to him, I'm sorry sir, we don't allow jokes based on stereotypes from different countries in here.

1:02:41

Okay, slightly more hard work.

1:03:05

But Mark, did you know that wolves have been re established in Denmark?

1:03:07

I didn't know that. Have they?

1:03:12

Sadly, I fell foul of them on a recent visit and I got bitten. The family I'm running rushed me straight to the hospital or Hopite, as they say in Danish Nurse. I said, I've been bitten by a wolf. Where? Said she. No, no, it was just a normal one.

1:03:14

Werewolf. Werewolf. Why are we talking like this? I don't know. You started it.

1:03:30

What's still to come?

1:03:33

Mark, wizard of the Kremlin, with one of the most unexpected pieces of casting I've seen in a long.

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Welcome to Crime Scene, the new weekly show from the Binge where we tell you the stories behind the world's most unforgettable crimes. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. You may know me as the host of My Fugitive dad or Dear Franklin Jones watching you. I'm an executive producer of the Binge, the True Crime Podcast network where we bring you a new series on the 1st of every month For Crime Scene. I'm joined by my producer and co host, Cooper Maul, the reporter and voice behind Fatal Beauty and the Crimes of Margo Freshwater. We know there are a lot of true crime podcasts out there. I think what makes Crime Scene different is that Cooper and I have boots on the ground. We're investigative storytellers, and so many of the stories that come across our desk we haven't been able to share with you until now. So if you're one of the millions of people who have flocked to the binge for riveting storytelling, deeply investigated true crime series. Think of this as all the things that you love about those shows in a single episode. Join us every week in the Crime Scene office wherever you listen to or watch your shows. This is Crime Scene, available now.

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I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart, and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago. And you can all go listen to it ad free by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel.

1:04:54

What podcast?

1:05:06

Corinne?

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Tell us.

1:05:07

Oh, called Blank Jake Handel's story. I created it about a man named Jake who I met, who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story and it's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen and subscribers to the binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on the Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com.

1:05:08

Okay, I've got an email here from Alison Sang Greetings from Clergy Kids Narthex, which we established. You might or might not remember an annex of Clergy Corner, but with better cushions and greetings specifically from your very occasional leprosy correspondent. Okay, okay. Not related to any film in particular that's out this week, but I thought Mark, particularly with his Methodist heritage, might appreciate this beautifully written piece about cinema in the Church Times this week. Week. So basically, it's a long piece. There's a link to it in the show notes, but anyway, it's about cinema as a place of sacred encounter.

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Okay, very good.

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I found this love letter to cinema and the place of spiritual spirituality within it really moving. Whether a believer in organized religion or not, it speaks to something in our nature about needing to belong and find sacred spaces. For reference, the venerable Dr. Rachel man is a brilliant priest based in Manchester and one of the Church of England's first transgender priests. She knows a bit, therefore, about feeling on the outside. Anyway, I hope you liked reading it as much as I did, especially the Roger ebook quote. Alison, thank you very much. These. So it's a long article. So as I said, if you want the whole thing, it's a link in our show notes. Here's the quote, here's the bit, here's just like one line, one paragraph. All I know is from the article is that when I was little, I fell head over heels in love with cinema and I have lost, I've never lost my sense of awe and wonder when the lights dim and the musical sound effects begin and the world's greatest magic lantern act unfolds on screen. The great critic Robert Ebert said, no good movie is too long. No bad movie is Short enough. Even when I've come home disappointed or angry with what I've seen at the flicks, I always enter the screening room with hope and expectation. Anyway, so the piece is by the venerable Dr. Rachel Mann, Archdeacon of Bolton and Salford. It's in the Church Times. There's a link in the show notes, what you might be interested, Alison, thank you very much indeed.

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I am interested in that. I am interested. I mean, firstly, I agree with the thing about the, you know, the cinema as a place of communal worship and all the rest of it. I also, I mean, I, I love that, that thing about you always go, you always go in with a sense of expectation. And I have always said that as a critic, if you ever lost, that you should stop. And that's why, partly when I, when I was talking the other day about Super Mario Galaxy and I said at one point, I nodded off and I'm not proud, I'm not proud of that at all. Because I don't think that you should, you should be in, you know, in that state of detachment. I really don't.

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My editor, my books editor at Transworld, the most magical part of the process, or one of the most magical parts of the process, as you're very well aware, is when you get the first copy of the book, usually sent on its own. You get a box of them later, but you get a padded envelope with one copy of your book with the COVID and the edited words and all that kind of stuff. And he said, if I, if I ever lose the thrill of taking and seeing that first book after all the work, then it's time to stop. Which is kind of like the publishing equivalent to what you just said.

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Yeah, yeah. In my case, if I ever lose the abject sense of, of buttock clenching terror when the book finally arrives, I should stop.

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Correspondence@kebonomayer.com what else is out?

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Yes. So wizard of the Kremlin, which is a movie that contains what? Do you know anything about this film?

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Absolutely nothing.

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Okay, so let me take you back many years ago, Meg Ryan is a helicopter pilot.

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Yes, I remember.

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You go, no, she's not. More recently, Russell Crowe is Herman Guring. And you go, really? And then you see the film and you go, wow. Okay, you ready for this?

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Yes, go on.

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Jude Law is. Who do you think?

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Well, it's called the wizard of the Kremlin. So Vladimir Putin. Yes.

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Well, okay, there you go. Okay.

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The title kind of gave it away, really.

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I know, but did you expect to sit, to hit. Jude Law is Vladimir Putin.

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No, I don't think. No, I don't think so. But I hope he gets away with it.

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Okay, so this is the new film by Olivier Sias, who is the French writer director behind Clean Clouds of Sils. Maria personal Shopper, of course, was, I think maybe probably the one that people know best. It is a darkly satirical political thriller slash existential drama. And it's based on a novel by, and forgive my pronunciation, Giuliano Diempoli, which from a few years ago now, which has been adapted by essayists and author journalist Emmanuel Carrera. Had you heard of the novel or read the novel or anything at all?

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No.

1:11:05

No, me neither. And I went back and looked it up and apparently it was acclaimed. Apparently was why it was translated into English language. I think it came out in English language. 2024 was very sort of well received. So the story of the wizard of the Kremlin follows the fictional character of Vadim Baranov, who is apparently a character inspired by the real life Vladislav Surkov. He's telling his story, the story of how he went from being an idealist artist and theater director caught up in the upheavals and the new freedoms of 90s Russia, to becoming a Kremlin insider spin doctor stooge who is right there, right there beside Putin during his rise to power. A rise which sees him turn from a dull apparatchik into the ruthless, you know, vampire dictator that we all now know and loathe. Here is a trailer. Here is a clip from the trailer. He's a spy. Kgb. Vladimir Putin.

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Vadim Baranov was a visionary director. He became known as the new Rasputin.

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I want to be part of my

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time, not just a witness. Stop making up stories. Start creating reality. We need to invent something new. Russia needs a different brand of politician. He's young, athletic.

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What interests me is power. So as I said, you get Jude Law as Putin and as the central character, the new Rasputin, Paul Dano. Now, I am a fan of his. As you know, I've talked about Love and Mercy, which I, I think is a brilliant film. And I, I watched it again when Brian Wilson died and I think his portrayal of, of Brian Wilson is, is really, really astonishing. I'm a very big fan of his. I was very, very cross when Quentin Tarantino said that ridiculous thing about, oh, yeah, he's such weak sauce and blah, blah, blah. So basically he is that central character who tells his story to Jeffrey Wright's role. And after the pair meet over a mutual love of Yevgeny Zamyatin who is the author of the 1920s novel. And this is all new to me. I don't claim for one minute to have known any of this. Author of the 1920s novel we, which is said to have inspired George Orwell's 1984. I didn't know any of this at all. I saw it in the film, I went back, I looked it up. Film also features Alicia Vikander, of whom I'm a big fan. Will Keane, Tom Storridge alongside Jude Law as Putin. Now, now, it was really strange seeing this completely cold, knowing nothing at all. And I confess that when it was Jude Law is Putin, I was like, yeah, no, he isn't. Honestly, the thing I thought watching it is this is like watching Anthony Hopkins nailing Nixon in that Oliver Stone film. Because despite the fact that Jude Law looks nothing like Putin, he is. He absolutely gets the physical gestures spot on. I mean, there is something really creepy and uncanny about just how well he gets the walk, the handshakes, those tiny microaggressions that Putin does that we've now watched on the news. I mean, it is remarkable. He moves just like Putin, which sounds like. Moves like Jaggi, moves like Putin, which would be an absolute banging disco hit. And in a way that was positively uncanny. The problem, therefore, is that it's a shame that Paul Dano's performance, and as I said, I'm a big fan of his, is pretty one dimensional and essentially turns the wizard into something of a kind of two dimensional, sort of semi robotic. I mean, all his lines are delivered in this same monotone with a little hint of an accent. And I can't. I'm not even doing a good impression of it. You heard a little bit of it in the clip and it's weird because that performance feels wrong and artificial and so actually also that voice is used for the narration, which kind of undermines film. So you've got on the one hand this weirdly hollow performance by an actor who I really like, who I thought would be great, and then you've got this. I mean, I'm, you know, I like Jude Law as an actor, but I just. Honestly, Jude Law is. Vladimir Putin is just the. No, he isn't. And then you watch this and it's the physicality, honestly, it's remarkable. As for Alicia Vikander, she does her best with a frankly kind of underwritten and sort of throwaway role about the woman and with whom Vadi Baranov falls in love and then she leaves him for a flashier lifestyle and the Film itself, I think is often quite inert and a little bit on the plodding side. But the Jude Law performance, I just went, okay, I, you know. Yeah, you got that. You, you absolutely nailed that.

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Intriguing and worth watching just because of that. By the sound of. Okay. Correspondencecovermeyer.com is our email and it's also where you can send your videos and audio clips if that's what you want to do for our what's on. And first of all, here's Matt. Hello, Simon and Mark. It's Matt from the award winning All Saints Elton Theatre Company. This season we've got two fantastic musicals that are based on films, both of which are on at the Met in Bury. We're performing the classic Singing in the rain from the 70s to the 20th of June. Then our youth group take to the Stage with Shrek Jr from the 9th to the 11th of July. Tickets are available from themet.org.uk thanks, bye. A very chirpy, yeah. Performance.

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Thumbs up for the presentation. Well done.

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And when I said, first of all, it's Matt, that's the only one we've got.

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So first and last word, I think it's really good to hear somebody giving it a bit of, you know, pep,

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bit of zing, but a zing, bit of zap. Okay, send your Watts on correspondence Codemode.com thank you very much indeed for all the ones that we have received. And that's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom the redactor, Simon, Paul, if you're not following the pod already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcasts, your investments may go up as well as down. Please come and join us on Patreon for all the good stuff, including this week's Take Ultra. Mark, what is your film of the week?

1:17:46

Well, you said boring title, Uninspiring setup, surprisingly uplifting film. Rebuilding is my film of the week

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and I am going to bestow a year's Ultra membership to our correspondent of the week, who I would say is Josie from southwest London who went to the parent and baby screening at the Barbican and let us know of how to go and see a film in the middle of London for six quid. And so well done to the Barbican for all of that. Josie will be in touch. Thank you very much indeed for listening. There'll be another take along alongside this one, of course. Inevitably,

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