The Gaslighting & Conversation Expert: This Is A Sign You’ll Divorce in 10 Years!

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That's vanta.com slash diary What are the five most important things for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator to get what they want out of life The first is authenticity and presents as the highest form of authenticity. Okay, it's on that point I'm gonna play this video on the screen that went viral of Mali Cyrus and Amy Campbell. I haven't seen this That's painful to watch Number two, reduce the amount of distraction three stop over explain number four Know how to deal with their sadness and I'll go through all of these in detail But number five is you have to know how to handle the narcissist and the gas lighter. What do I do? Let me show you first you need to Ah, yeah for a lot of people that kind of blows their mind Jefferson Fisher is back and the board certified trial lawyer is using his expertise in conflict resolution and communication To teach couples friends employees and everyone in between how to master difficult conversations Here's the truth you have to invest in your communication if I don't say what needs to be said at work I'll lose that promotion same thing in relationships Most relationships don't fall apart because they fill out a love They fell out of communication because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened And it didn't get you said, ah, this is so stupid. This is so small like there's a recent study showing that the biggest predictor of the child's Well-being within the parental relationship is not whether they were married or divorced It was how they deal with conflict But people are definitely afraid of the conflict that they're in because they don't know what to say And so I want to help them fill control in with Feel confident in this and it's knowing things like being right is overrated All right, if I respond first with frustration I'm going to lose every time or if you want to know how to handle the insults The patronizing the dismissal the first thing you have to do is That's the mistake I've made multiple times Just give me 30 seconds of your time Two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show Week after week means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started And if you enjoy what we do here Please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app Here's a promise I'm going to make to you I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can Now and into the future We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show Thank you Jefferson Fisher What do you do professionally What is your how do you sort of characterize your profession? Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade. What does that mean? That means I help clients with legal needs Board certified in personal injury so when people get hurt I Have trials so that means there are other attorneys that don't ever go to a courtroom I go into a quorum and you stand before a judge And a judge yeah, you have a judge have a jury have a court reporter a bailiff I have opposing attorneys there are people in the room and you try and convince those people of your point of view to get a particular outcome Advocate my clients facts in order to get the result that they want So why did you think it was important to write a book about conversation talking getting what you want from The conversations we have with people we care about Because I have seen time and time again that when I am training a client is what I call I'm preparing them for cross-examination for deposition They really don't know how to engage in conflict and so I can't think of any other profession that is more entrenched in conflict Maybe outside of a boxer or some you know you have seen something that deals with actual conflict and sits there and listens to it all then In the legal world and a trial attorney And so yeah, it's my job to advocate based on my clients facts To get them the result that they want the reason why I wrote that book and how that book applies is I took a lot of the lessons that I teach Every one of my clients and put them in that book because I'm sitting there preparing them for cross-examination In realizing oh wait, they are definitely afraid of the conflict that they're in because most of the time It's the most emotional stressful Overwhelmed they are ever in their life. They've they're in a place. I've never been they don't know what it's like They've only seen it on TV and so it's my job to kind of take their hand and say this is how we're gonna This how we're gonna do it and how does that apply to the average person in their life? people think that The goal of any argument or any conversation is to win and Same for a trial. They say you want to win a trial I've seen it so many times where I've gotten the result that they want and I've They realize they still have the problem. They still wanted the apology. I it all would have been resolved There'd be no case if somebody just said I'm sorry And so you find that for the everyday person It's my job now and and passion to be able to help them Get into conflict and say I feel controlled in this I feel confident in this now I know exactly where I'm going in this because I've been there before and it is not A skill that comes naturally it is a skill that is learned And what do you think is the the sort of variance and outcome? How would my life change if I became an absolute master in this You know if I started from zero in this regard And then I became a master in dealing with conflict and dealing with difficult people and dealing with people that gas like me and dealing with narcissists and all these kinds of things Why would my life be different and and in what domains It's quite a lot. Yeah, first would be you would be equipped for Outside of necessary expertise anywhere you wanted to be in life People feel like communication is zero cost It costs you something if I'm not speaking up in that relationship It costs my own sense of worth if I don't say what needs to be said at work Well, I might have lost that promotion. I everything the bill always comes do if you can think of Every time you didn't say the thing As like a receipt at a restaurant every time it's It's a bill of what I am not putting into my life because I chose to either say something or not say something At the right time and when you realize that if I can speak with confidence Well, that's me gaining a little bit more if I can say things with control That's me gaining just a little bit more a second benefit of it is that you realize Being right is overrated You can if you tell me the sky is purple. Not yourself. How Stephen? It doesn't have to touch anything with me on on who I am or any of my opinions. We're opinion making machines I feel that's all on social media. It's just be set up to give your opinion on things that most of the time will rarely ever touch you And if you can have the peace of mind of knowing I don't need to agree with you to understand you If you have an opinion, I don't have to give one back if you say something I can choose not to say anything at all and for a lot of people that kind of blows their mind of you mean I don't have to respond. No, you don't Have to say anything. If somebody's talking really fast you can talk really slow They forget that you have full autonomy in it and when you realize it it's you who's taking the wheel you take the wheel of your life But what about justice Jefferson? Yeah, do you know justice like this person has wronged me They've said something wrong. They've I don't know they tweeted at me something which is incorrect I need to correct the record justice. I think we all have a sort of an in an eight sense of Justice we want things to be fair and right. Yes Justice is an inherent value that is high priority for a lot of people for good reason You might say well, they've wronged me. This isn't right That's all well and good the question is gonna be how long do you want to carry it? How long do you want to carry that feeling because I can either choose to let it go I can choose to say the thing It's it's not at all my position that you should be stepping on Eggshelves and not say the thing and be a wallflower. I know it's the opposite I'm saying you you say what you need to say in a way that is controlled in a way that is signaling I don't I'm saying this because it needs to be said But not because I have to say it There's a lot of people who feel like well something needs to be said But in my maybe you're not the one to say it maybe you're the one that needs to I mean, he doesn't need to be said right now because if they're not willing to listen Well, then what good is it ever do? what I like to say is you know For you to learn how to stand up for yourself you first have to learn who's worth getting out of your chair for yeah I'm not gonna be Making big moves for something that is Not at all worth my my time. So yeah, justice is absolutely worth it But when you go I'm the one that has to be carrying this A lot of the times people do things to you and it's nothing to them But yet it's everything to you and now you're just you're walking around for 20 years with the comment that you could have said something Way long ago and decided to drop it But you chose to the carry it and now you're the only one that has the the weight of that If I'm dealing with someone who's in a position of power Someone who's a I don't know a senior to me at my company or Even someone who in my social group is a bit more higher up in this sort of social pecking order And they're continually putting me down or being difficult or even a partner that I'm romantically involved in What are the hallmarks of someone who has control over their communication and what are the hallmarks of someone that doesn't Like what is it that makes because when you speak it's very Feels very composed and controlled. What are you intentionally doing to achieve that effect? I'm wanting you to match my rhythm I'm wanting you to come to my frequency People get it wrong when they go big time to an 11 big emotional reaction If I have a big emotional outburst and my signaling that I'm somebody who's trustworthy reliable and confident or my signaling that I am Out of my depth. I don't know what I want and I am Not to be believed right because it's when you have an emotional outburst everybody thinks this is you're just being Emotional and they don't All of a sudden you're not credited for the truth of what you're saying So sometimes emotions can get in the way of What needs to be said because of how you're delivering it. So when I say I'm going to talk to you in a way that's going to sound more controlled It's I'm slowing down my words. I'm lower my volume. Why because I want to pull you down here And if I can pull you down here Well, then we can talk about a lot harder things Rather than Feeling like have to rush. So if you want to talk to somebody in your relationship or somebody that's kind of higher up on the picking order so to speak when you can show them that Change doesn't bother you when you can show them that You don't have to rush through this situation People feel that you are giving them a sense of comfort in other words in conversation everybody is looking for an anchor When you go to a meeting we listen to the person who's the anchor They're usually the person who says a lot less the person who's observing and listening rather than always giving their opinion about what you should be doing Those are the people you don't listen to as soon as you as if you've ever hurts me say you know what I think you should do Does that ever make you want to do what they said no? It's because they they've made it their Idea now they're telling you what to do if I were to say to you you can't do that What's the first thing you think of? Yes, I can you know, it's it's the same kind of concept where it's me lowering To be the anchor in the conversation and when you're in a Case in front of a judge is is there anything else that you're intentionally thinking about with I don't know your body language or The eye contact or any of these other things that you've learned over time are really important to get your message heard I'm speaking like I've been there before explain that to me walk into a room like you've been there before As if everybody else is just visiting so what I do before every trial Is I will go in there before the jury comes in the judge comes in everybody comes in and I say to myself This is my living room and everybody else is just visiting And so I will touch the chairs I will put my hands on the banisters. I will walk around. I will fill that space And and feel it in a way of saying I have been here before And when I can exude that kind of confidence that every juror that watches All of a sudden it calms them down they go who can I rely on here? Who's more trustworthy who's more credible because that's what it is when you're persuading when you are advocating your case. It's who Ultimately it comes down to who's more credible and so when I can Knock it emotionally flustered like I've seen it so many times where a judge rules against me and I act as though that's exactly what I wanted You know I am acting as though Thank you judge and the jury's never going to know really any Different but I've seen on other attorneys where the judge rules against them and they go Or they roll their eyes or they act frustrated and what is the juror thing? Oh, they must not have wanted me to hear this information But this must have been bad for their case So if you are always reacting to situations in which you have to be Emotional with in a sense that you're not paying attention to who's Watching you okay on that point. Yeah. Yeah. So when you say rules against you. You mean during the trial There's something you request exactly the judge might say no and you say thank you judge Yeah, you act as if you're not defeated you act as though that's exactly what you expected Right, it's it's the whole idea of That's not gonna shake shake me So a lot of the times you'll see in real court not TV The judge will say counsel can you approach and both attorneys come up and they play some kind of noise Cancelation to where only the the attorneys can hear the judge and the judge is making a decision at that time that we don't want to hear To let the jury know why because it's information that might Swade the case in some way and not be as objective and you have to pay attention who's how the attorneys are walking away after that meeting's done it so my looks defeated It just signals oh, this is information that they must not want or they're objecting I've seen so many cases where There's one attorney who objects to everything It's my role if I really want to have one objection the whole trial Because to the jury an objection is me keeping evidence out So if you always object always object always object you're just signaling there's information. I don't want you to hear But if I have the confidence of knowing There's really one objection. I know that's going to be material to my case Where they know I've been there before this is not something that's going to be making or breaking my case It's it's all of credibility if they don't trust me They're not going to trust my client or my client's case I think also it illuminates to me how much of a communication is non-verbal because yeah That example you're just talking about how they're watching your body language and how you've received something Right and there you know if you were defensive You know with all those objections or if you were defeated in the judges ruling That would work against you even though it's really nothing was said like nothing significant was said Yeah, it's it's a balance of knowing Am I going to Choose to react because of personal ego of I didn't get my way Or am I having the better mindset of I'm advocating on behalf of my client like I've been let's say you're a witness And you're opposed to me and I'm asking you a question and I think you said something that's contrary Contrary to the evidence that I have right here Rather than me getting messed up saying are you are you sure about that mr. Barlow? Let me go You know I have this piece of paper here and I get really worked up Versus me putting you said something and I put my hand on the paper. I said You sure Like all of a sudden it's a moment of It kind of peaks their interest of like what's happening? Oh this attorney knows this attorney is somebody who's confident And has this what I call in the pocket presence I'm not trying to be too forward. I'm not trying to be too back I'm just in the pocket like a jazz band like everybody is on everybody's on beat and so I'm not I'm not rushing I'm not slowing down. I'm just right in the pocket in the pocket. Is that what people call aura Swagger maybe some people call it yeah aura You you could have it for anything in any context I like to say in the park because it just reminds me of The right timing is my timing and that is I'm I'm gonna match How I need to be of what's most authentic what's most genuine to me if you were to ask me to read something really fast It wouldn't sound that great because that's not that's not my personality And so if I know that I am acting and speaking in accordance with the values that I hold And I'm saying everybody here is just is just visiting this is I've been here before Let me let y'all don't know where to go. Let me show you and I have that kind of mentality people Will listen to you forever. They'll they'll find that attractive saying how does this person know where they're going Well, I can I can follow them. It's just it's natural leadership to speak in a way that says I know where I'm going I've been here before I think that's probably good advice for people who um have important meetings or Going on dates. Yeah to maybe get there ahead of time and familiarize yourself with the location. Yes, just so you you know You don't have the added anxiety of like stumbling through the physical environment Like looking for the thing or trying to find the toilet or exactly I don't know trying to figure out how to make the PowerPoint presentation air drop onto the screen and all those kinds of things Which we've all seen before yeah, I always anytime I go to speak Um, I spoke this past week in Santa Barbara. I went ahead of time before my speaking time to go I want to see what the room looks like. I want to see how can I touch and say hi to the people that are working AV how can I meet them how can I if you really want to be better as a professional speaker talk to people in the crowd before you speak Get to know people's names. It's going to naturally Lower you get to know their names ask them why they're here say I'm so thankful that you're here I'm really looking forward to the message and getting to talk to you today when you when you can go in and touch people It's a different sense than if I'm going into a room totally Cold because you don't really have the vibe you don't really know how that is so yeah going into a restaurant ahead of time That's great not bringing your phone even better, you know getting able to be a sense of knowing I've been here before I want to welcome you to to my space When we talk about um people have aura you must have met a lot of people in your career and your life generally that you felt had a sense of aura Yes What was it about them That gave them that aura What is it? It's a frequency of Peace for me I think of people and you think of people in your life who you have felt most Comfortable with the person you feel like I can just be myself. I can finally let everything down And for me it was my our grandparents house As soon as I walk in it's a different feeling of Time kind of stands still they want to know about me. They want to know how am I doing? It's it's that feeling. I could talk about people who seem like they have aura and they just have a glow About them. It's usually of They're not trying to prove anything to anybody. They just naturally Exude that kind of charisma because of just the security of knowing Who they are and what they can do And I guess what what's the opposite of that then sometimes it's easier to understand something by understanding the opposite What would that look like? I would say that Authentic people Authentic aura as you say doesn't come from people Securing themselves to you. That's for insecure people The people who are authentic Know that I am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you want to rush? I'm really no rush I'm what happens today happens today. Is it really due today or it could have been done tomorrow if I I had to if it's a slower pace I find that There is so much kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on these kind of things where And I'm from Texas in the south so it's it's kind of this Knowing that the right time will come when that time is right and Not having to push that so if you want to look at the opposite it's the it's the opposite of aura is insecure. It's name dropping. It's having to be friends immediately. It's having to Prove to you how much money I have or what it's everything else Being everything to everybody else except myself Hmm The people who have a sense of style their own sense of style Naturally have an aura why because they don't care what in the world anybody else is wearing this is what I like My daughter, all right. She's six. We tried setting out clothes Forget it. She she can come down in O leper print to two and her sunglasses and whatever she wants and you know what she thinks she's the fly thing in the world I mean, that's I never want to take that out of her the people who have a sense of fashion the sense of who I am And they didn't have to look cool to anybody social standard, but it's Do they really care what anybody else thinks usually people with aura do not And sometimes when you come up again I mean we were talking before we started recording about since this book's publication What have been people saying to him what if the chapters um what are the chapters that stood out the most to people You mentioned that it tends to be things around dealing with difficult conversations dealing with difficult people All right, and one of the phrases that's been arguably overused a lot in society is this phrase gaslighting Yeah, and the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting is psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies One manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality memory or sanity Mm-hmm. The people talk to you about gaslighting a lot Yes, now that you've written this book Yes, and what do you think gaslighting it? It's one of those things that's been used so often that we almost have to like pause for a second just to define it again Yes, let me put it this way the difference between gaslighting and lying lying is a surface level of Hmm, I could tell you instead of having a silver cup. This is a red cup. Well, that would be a lie gaslighting is I'm trying to alter your reality into mine. I'm trying to make you question How other people perceive you including my so how you perceive yourself if Anybody's ever questioned am I crazy? Am I the crazy one? Is it is it me? Is it is everybody most likely you're probably being Gaslight and here's the truth I've been the gaslighter Everybody has been the gaslighter Whether they intentionally know it or not because it's all that feeling of Preservation of defensiveness of I don't want people to know the truth of Of what's happening in my life. So I'm going to mislead and gaslighting the intent is to alter your Reality to make you question What is real and what is not? So I might do something wrong and then I might come home and know that I've done something wrong Intentionally try and sell my partner a version of reality That makes them fundamentally question what they know to try and spare me the critique or to Control them. Yes, they protect yourself. It's it's self-preservation Say let's say you and your partner had come home from a dinner, all right, and you're just in a very critical mood and maybe you're trying to To distract from something else that's going on in your life And you're being critical of a story that she shared at dinner and you're like, why did you why would you ever say that and she goes everything was fine You're like fine. No, it was not did you not see how they reacted? No, no, no, no, listen I know you don't want to hear this but everybody feels that You know, you're a little bit Much you know and I'm I'm the one that needs to tell you this you say how your all of a sudden is starting to alter How she feels in that moment and I've seen the the other side of that and it is it is not at all Something that you can come back from without serious relationship work to be able to Find a way to say okay, what's how are we really walking in truth because you get so far away from radical honesty and Conversation so gaslighting is is is not something to be taken lightly But I will say people often apply to the wrong thing They'll use it as a sense of saying You're saying something I don't like so you're gaslighting me You know, we're in an argument and you're pointing out something that hurt your feelings. Oh, that's gaslighting You know and they they use it as an excuse. It's almost a form of gaslighting exactly That's exactly right and it in a weird way it can reverse that way But imagine me saying something hurtful to you and you go that really hurt my feelings I go well, it's just my boundary. I just have a boundary about everything or this is you're just gaslighting me You know, I've never met somebody who talked about their ex without saying my narcissistic ex You know, I've finally just got out of a narcissistic relationship. It's never us Right, it's always the other it's always the other person And so there's these words that we can kind of pepper insult in the sentences That are also still another form if we look at it a former self-preservation look at all their bad and don't look at my Why is it important that we don't gaslight others and I asked this question because Everybody listening now is probably going to want the answer to the question which is what what do I do about a gaslighter? Yeah, but again, this is avoiding the responsibility that we all have a like a tendency or at some point in our life have gaslighted somebody else and You know I don't think my audience is just Got the gaslighted. Yeah, you know, like exactly clearly you're also all the gaslighters right so how do um Why is it important that we don't gaslight other people and is there a way for us to avoid You know getting into situation where our backs against the wall and we end up gaslighting someone It's important not to gaslight somebody Because every time you do you're removing Yourself further further from the truth the truth of how you feel the truth of your relationship you are withholding Reality from that other person rather than having radical radical honesty about what's what's happening? So it degrades the relationship it degrades another person self-worth and in many ways gaslighting steals their reality It's not something you can give back without a lot of work it's it's it's taking in some sense now it can be absolutely intentional and it can also be unintentional as a form of self-preservation and if you feel like you are being Gaslight the secret to knowing is slowing down the conversation if I am Staying still in the conversation meaning you could say something to me That's a form of gaslighting making me question. Did I oh my goodness that I really say that that I really hurt their feelings So I did I and getting to my head And I start kind of jumping around and trying to change what I did but if I were to say It's even I remember that differently And that's where I stop Then you can try other things and I'm gonna repeat Yeah, I remember that differently I it's standing in the truth of what you know rather than being concerned In misled By giving someone the reins in the leash to drag you around and if I um If I think about I think it's thinking about all the times where I think I might have gas gaslit someone You know in relationships back against the wall Um And you're having an argument with someone or It's quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word like just telling something that isn't necessarily true Or is that is your perception of things versus like gaslighting Is the is the difference in your mind intention Like is if I say if I give my version of reality yeah up we were at that party You said this thing I saw the person roll their eyes and then they walked away I think they're really offended. I think you offended them right what's the difference between that and me Gaslighting someone Of between lying gaslighting or it's yeah, like I'm trying to understand it yeah In that context you gave about going to a party someone something and then they walk up What's the difference between if that's how you saw reality and you're communicating it versus gaslighting someone It to the intention it's the intention in the tension is I'm the one in control not you Okay, so you are trying to control the narrative You are trying to be both director producer and actor full your own agenda. That's right for your own film I'm for control. I'm the character in my own movie hi. I'm the main character and You need to behave this way you need to believe this you need to act upon that and so the more I can try to Manipulate that reality And what's so wild is It becomes so manipulated that you believe it too Now now that that falsehood has now become your fact In some sense that the really good liars Convince themselves that that lie is Is the truth is there a certain type of person that's more susceptible to being gaslit or to being Victimized in any way with conversation in your view anxious attachment the ones that are they People who can't regulate by themselves they have to co-regulate meaning most of the time men are we're good Self regulators just give me some time by myself Give me an evening Give me an hour Let me walk outside out and I'll regulate myself Most of the time it's been my experience women are not like that they co-regulate most of them They need you to also make them feel good. They can't be good if you're not good We're not good. I'm not good if if you're not okay So it's it's that whole I'm not okay if you're not okay and so in many ways they need you to be able to Calm down themselves and they don't sell for you late as well and so The people who are most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation People who are anxious anxious attachment meaning they they need Are you okay? Are you good? You need anything are you sure you're not okay and Versus the people who are more avoidant and three the the people who are typically more insecure So do you think women get gaslit more than men? Yes But women still gaslight women right of course, but just men and women when you're talking relationships When you're talking relationships, that's my personal opinion is because From my feedback from the people that have Read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book Yeah, it's majority vast majority are are women. I'm not saying that's some empirical study on it, but what I will say is women are just as capable of gaslighting And get women to certainly gaslight women and it's I'm saying this with a mindset of Everybody gaslights whether they know it or not and they have in the past most likely they can think of a time in the past where they did Without knowing it But it is that would be my opinion that most of the time men are the ones that do it to women It's reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships show women report higher rates of gaslighting in coercive control Than men men do report gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms And it as it relates to workplace data surveys from management and organizational psychology show women are more likely to have their competence questioned their memory doubted all their experience dismissed Women in male dominated fields report the highest rates of gaslighting and women of color report even higher rates of being told their perception is wrong or misinterpret all that they're misinterpreting things Sounds like that tracks And also in medical settings women are less likely to be to be believed about their symptoms Women's pain is underestimated women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders ADHD and autism And then it screws on and on and on If I had to say who does more and I'm not trying to put some kind of like headline of men do it more than women In my experience it tends tends to be the guy and you know, what is that that information show me It shows me that That sounds about right I do think from the people that follow my content listen to my content because I Stay very connected to my community of So many women say I feel like I'm in this workplace and they are doubting my competence. They're doubting my ability to make decisions I'm not being Believed I'm putting I'm being put down. I'm whether it's not even their experience. It's just because of their gender And those are real those are real questions. Does that mean that that's gaslighting probably not all the time but For me to say that's that's a dumb complaint. You know, that's just complaining In many ways when you start denying that reality then you have the same problem You know, I am I thought I've had thousands of people over the last decade and I have to say Sometimes it's hard. It's difficult to understand the plight of someone else when you haven't lived Their experience like you haven't been a woman or whatever It's like it's like very difficult so you kind of just have to take them for their words sometimes if you've not lived it yourself Or you can look at data or whatever else And I do have to say that I have experienced male executives who were Extremely dismissive of their female peers in a way that was 100% Inconsistent as a relates to genders. What I mean by that is I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed Dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit really for no other reason than she was a woman And so it's a very real thing and it's not every man. I have to say this But there is a certain particular type of person Who for some reason in my experience would see a woman in the in the workplace or in the high sort of up rash lungs of the professional Environment as being less than them just because of her gender So when I hear you know what you're saying about women are predominantly coming you know coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting It does kind of track with what I've seen I'll tell you this I've never had a man It come to me in all this time that I've been from my book to my content this number of years ever say I think I'm being gaslit it is it has always been the woman never never What about the conversation around like dealing with narcissists because this feels like it's what kind of one in the same The words are used in the same sort of vernacular, but yeah Do you have men coming to you saying that I think my partner's an narcissist? Yes, you do yeah that I do have Yeah, it's always it's always they're married to one or just got out of a relationship with one But it's never them and what what you say to someone who is dealing with an artist who is dealing with someone who Repeatedly gas gas lights them. Well, let's say it's in the context of work. Yeah, what are they meant to do? Quit their job Well, that is an option. So let's not roll that out. Okay, um If it's if it's worth it to you because that's that's the question of what's your what's your purpose here? And this is where you're going to be forever Then there's some things we need to put in place. But what do you to do you were to limit the interaction like limit the exposure talk less neutral statements So if you can many ways you can Just limit the amount of physicality of I don't have to see you. I don't have to communicate with you I know you work three doors down, but I don't have to be Your best friend and you certainly don't have to be mine To is understanding the game that you're in It's a it's a game for narcissists of praise or provoke meaning if I am not Showering you with praise then the narcissist will turn to provoke in order to create an argument For the same effect they delight Infrastration just as may just as much as they delight in your praise because they get the same type of control I've seen so many expert witnesses in my field that are that I would I would term or narcissists they they they can never Possibly be wrong. They they don't do empathy and again, this is me with the understanding of hey, we all have narcissistic tendencies You know, we all have narcissistic traits and narcissism is a Diagnosable condition that you can have I think more people would qualify more than they think But how do you handle it day-to-day? Is knowing what kind of game you're in and it's a game you're just not gonna play I know I don't have to say anything to that person to I'm gonna limit my Distance to them and three. I'm gonna use neutral statements. I'm gonna use neutral statements like that's good to know Thanks for sharing Noted and things that they can't grab on to and continue to have in a conversation When you think of like the hallmarks of of a really really One of these types of people What are the way the characteristics that I could should be looking out for if I'm dealing with one such person who is is gonna try and manipulate me Gonna try and gaslight me What what do they do? They can never be happy for anybody by themselves They can't be happy for you. They can't be happy for other people These are the types that if you were to say hey, did you see that Steve and just got this award? Isn't that so great? She's nominated for whatever and they go. I mean, that's I guess that's fine You know I when I did this and they start talking about them Sells they can never be happy for somebody else. They can't be happy for you. It's they have to find some way to turn the conversation of Why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them that the world was against them They couldn't get it but they were just as deserving. I mean, I guess that's fine I mean, you know, I do this but nobody nobody listens nobody really cares They find that they have a very victim mentality so two is a victim mentality everything happens To them in some way and three they can't feel for other people They don't do Emotion it's it's always about the perception of What others would think they're very very sensitive To how others might portray them so they're going to give you a different view Then they give other people and so the couple might be terrible But for anarsis is they're going to put on face that the relationship is perfect to everybody else and everybody goes You you must be so blessed to be married to that person and you're going You kidding me They're they're fooling everybody and it's a very helpless position. How do you ever had anarsis trying prey on you? Yeah Yeah, yeah, I'm in the legal field man expert witnesses have opinions To them that are unquestionable you can't this is their opinion and nobody else could ever argue with it when I have another expert who says just The opposite so a lot of the times they are very condescending You know, that's fine and they have their opinion and this is all there is and how dumb of you to ever question me And usually what gives it away Is if I feel like this is somebody that okay there they can't be reasonable. They're never going to give an inch on what's reasonable I will ask this I'll say this is typically in a deposition. I'll say and you think the jury's going to like that And you or you think other people are going to agree with you And all of a sudden they kind of change in an instant to be able to match What the jury is going to think so if I ever to say and you think and you think that's okay and you think others are gonna find that okay And you think that the jury when they hear this they're they're all going to agree with this Very hard line opinion I've seen it every time or they that's it's only when I reference other people The presentation of themselves to other people that they kind of put on a show why Because they know that the perception of the crowd is everything they need everybody to like them to fawn Over them they they want their idea to to be the best and so they will manipulate the situation to be the chameleon to to make sure that everybody Loves them at least in in their mind. It's not a it's not a reasonable Thought and so they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable Even though they could have admitted to that you know two hours into the deposition Did they tend to talk more or less than the average person in the room much more Hmm Is there a thin line between just being insecure and being an narcissist? Because you know one of the things I was thinking about is you said earlier that they tend to bring everything back to themselves And I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were having a conversation about your book doing really really well The first response to that would be They're mentioned of their own book like they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them And I was wondering some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure And that they just you know, they're in a search for validation So I'm wondering where you think the line might be between sort of narcissistic behavior And just like extremely insecure maybe there's not a line maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism both can be true you know, I'd say that Not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure um, I would I would say that if I had to give some kind of line it would be the interest for growth insecure people are looking for ways to grow and to secure and attach Narcissists they're not looking for anybody to attach onto they're looking for people to support them, you know to please them And so they have no interesting growth They to them they've learned all they've have to learn I am the best. I cannot improve anymore That to me would be the difference when you dealt with narcissists in your own life and in the courtroom What is the reason why they couldn't pray on you? What did you do as defense to stop their games their typical games working on you? I don't chase their words Often one of the biggest things I see wrong In conversation Is a narcissist will same for a gas lighter. They'll dig a hole All right, and then they expect you to fill it Meaning they're gonna say something to frustrate you and you go no that's not what happened Don't you remember and you just start chasing it and then they just dig another hole and then you keep going You keep going and you're exhausted because all you've been doing is trying to plug holes You're not having a real conversation And when I can Give it a very clear definition of a very clear signal of noted You know, I'm just gonna stay right there. I'm gonna see I'm gonna put down the shovel and stay right there with them And maybe I'll say something as neutral as got it I don't have to chase it. I don't to say anything and and to me the the people that have those narcissistic traits Once they realize that they can have no game with you that you're not going to play They find somebody else They find somebody if you've ever had somebody Come to you and they're the more emotionally toxic type of person They always have some kind of problem. They come with you and they have this problem You go I just I can't write this moment. I will In 10 minutes later. What's happened? They don't have that issue. They've already gone to talk to somebody else I was watching a Dame Dash on the breakfast club. I don't know if you've seen it But it's really another breakfast club But it's it's Dame Dash is on there because he was um he followed for bankruptcy and Charlemagne is sat there And Charlemagne is I've actually interviewed both of them both Dame and Charlemagne and Charlemagne is Very relaxed and every once in a while just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's broke And then Dame Dash is like very like hot-headed and like trying to prove all the reasons why he's not broken like really like Gassing himself and I it was it was an interesting it's an interesting video to watch I think it's the more recent one that came out within the last year Because it does show in my view how to deal with someone who Has a very has a significant ego. Yeah, which is that Charlemagne just never changes state Like no matter what the volume is no matter how much emotion no matter when he starts Calling him some quite personal insults Charlemagne's demeanor his tone His posture. Yeah, doesn't change unbothered unbothered and you can see it's super trickering But you just can't get to this guy like right it looks like Dame is like really annoyed that he and he tries to say more offensive things He goes you're yeah, you're this you're that the other And it's funny because I was watching it this morning And it for me it kind of tracks it well a lot of the stuff you're saying about like just not going with them. Yeah Just not following them work as that they want you to go somewhere And then there's a certain conflict they want to get in with you Yeah, if you just kind of refuse and just stay anchors whatever you uh your point of view is it's it's funny to watch They want to push you yeah, yeah my my dad. I can remember growing up I'd be in the passenger seat. He's driving And he ever had it where somebody you're in the passenger seat and somebody is just rearing the bumper right on them And I and I'd be looking in the side mirror I'm like I kind of starts stressing out for him, you know That's somebody's really riding the bumper you know right behind And I mean just like clockwork what he would do we have shoulders on our in on the roads there in Texas And rather than trying to speed up or get mad He would just kind of pull over to the shoulder and he would say this every time he'd say go on with your bad self Every time he go go on with your bad self in the rear rear mirror like that's how unbothered he was by that of I feel like so many people get road rage has so many people talk out loud to the cars while they're while they're driving And he it just never got him worked up and realizing My Value in my worth of knowing who I am is not at all determined by Where you feel I should go it goes back to that idea of if you want to tell me the sky's purple knock yourself out Now I I don't have to be right and you don't have the ability to to push me I can move and you have your own I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't have to match anybody else's so when this somebody is Unbothered it's not because they don't care. It's not for lack of care It's an understanding it's discernment of knowing I know who I am in this moment and why in the world would I try to be anybody else Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all be untriggerable It'd be more peace of all that's for sure It's interesting because again just reflect on that interview. I watch this morning When Dame dash calls Charlemagne something really really offensive. I noticed that as a viewer. I immediately look at Charlemagne To see his reaction to figure out if what Dame dash just said was true And you see what I'm saying. Yes, he turned him and said you're a ex right and then Charlemagne just kind of laughed I'm like it just it was like water off a duck's back. So immediately as the viewer I go well that can't be true then because Charlemagne doesn't seem to care exactly well, it's it's not the lack of a care it's It's just the opposite it's all the more care of knowing who he is so if I were to tell you right now I hate your purple shirt. It's the most ugly as purple shirt. I've ever seen Stephen like your shirt is so ugly in that purple Does it affect you whatsoever? No, because I'm not wearing a purple shirt for anyone to say when I plus one. That's right That's a good point. Right, but you see how you you already know The characteristics of of you you already know what you're wearing and it's not just your clothes I'm I'm wearing my confidence. I'm wearing everything that Your parents your your loved ones haven't still been put on you. I'm I'm wearing the armor of my faith I am I have all these other things that I'm wearing and If you want to say my shirts purple that That doesn't affect me at all because it's that's not who I am and so so often people get mixed up of Arguing about no, I don't have a purple shirt on When why would you ever argue with that they it's that quote by Abraham Lincoln that I love If Never argue with a fool because an onlooker can never know the difference Right, and so it's it's knowing no, I know exactly who I am and what I'm wearing And this sort of speaks to the fact that your reaction Determines how onlookers will interpret everything that's happening Like you know, oh the worst thing you could do to somebody who insults you is laugh. I mean what does it do? I mean it it infuriates them right but when same thing with a bully a bully says something to you That they know is meant to hurt you And if I were to turn around say did you say that to embarrass me? I mean what are they gonna do they they could say yes, they could say no But either way you're realizing I'm not getting get any reaction what you're showing them is for you to do this It's just not gonna be fun for you It's gonna be zero fun. What's so ever for you? And so they'll find that with somebody somebody else It's always your reaction That's going to Determine how the conversation goes forward. There's a lot of people listening right now that are a long way away from that very easily triggered Yeah, seeking justice You know whatever it might be For those people is it like a muscle they have to build or is there what is the journey to getting to this level of sort of mastery? It's a discipline It is in the same way that people Invest in so many other things in our life. We invest in our health. We invest in self-help books We invest in the podcasts that we listen to it is the same you have to invest in your communication We don't get taught in school We don't you know, I I went to law school people think I learned this in law school. No Law school teaches you how to read the law it doesn't teach you how to read people you had to To me if you or somebody that is in a position of expertise and to share something It either came at great personal cost or you're making it up Like it it it is something that you have learned Right And so I mean whether it's through skill knowledge training it's I've you want to know how that I know these things because I've lived it You know, I have been on the bat side. I've been on the good side and It's It is not it's never something that's just gonna come to you We are emotional creatures and we're hormonal creatures So how do you think about our emotions our hormones our health our physical cognitive state as it relates to like Walking into the courtroom and being ready like how much of the you know because if I've had zero hours sleep and I'm I know hungry and Whatever else and I've had an argument. I'm stressed about something It's gonna be significantly harder to show up and be a great communicator and win the argument against somebody Right, so do you think about these things all the time? I mean the emotions are are right they're connected to the words And what do you what how do you prepare to be ready for battle? It's an emotional awareness of how I'm feeling And also how the other person is because if I just respond I mean yeah if I respond to their emotional reaction. I'll miss it every time same thing in relationships If I respond to the reaction I'll lose that moment to actually speak to the need so even in the courtroom for me if I know that I'm a little sleepy. I know I'm a little hungry. I'm a little grumpy You know what I can either try and pretend that I'm not Or I might get up from the jury and say good morning everybody. I have to meet you. I'm a little grumpy I didn't need all that much this morning. Anybody else grumpy and everybody starts to kind of nod and now hey We all kind of relate not to my words, but now to the feeling and now you trust me more. I trust you more Because I'm being more authentic And do you think people should do that in their own into personal relationships? Which is just caught out that state? Absolutely because the perfection is not relatable struggle is emotions are If I were to come to you and say And you say how are you now go good everything's good when it is not Am I being authentic or am I being fake But if I were to say let me tell you I've had a morning and it's tested me in a way. I was not expecting And my mind is just not here Does that make you trust me more trust me less trust you move every time So when you can share your struggles with people. I'm not talking about your deepest inner desire struggles I'm saying Let me put it this way See you're not checking with each other every morning. It's my wife and It's only about 10 minutes after she drops the kid off kids off and We kind of run through how we're doing and the number one thing she asks me or tells me goes you told me a lot about what you're doing You haven't told me about how you're feeling and that's and that's the truth of the default I think of a lot of men and a lot of people. I'm going to tell you what's going on. What's on my agenda Where I'm doing? I haven't told you a lot about how I'm feeling And we store all that stuff up because it's still there. But if I can share with you What is my struggle? What's happening not just the good but more importantly the the bad I mean that it's always going to bring that authenticity into the play Women and men are very different in many ways And yeah, we're very different in many ways men are I don't know. It feels like men just you know again I'm I'm stereotyping here. So it's not all men and of course people are different But just speaking generally the stereotype is that men are typically a bit more emotionally composed or shall I say flat and women have more emotional fluctuations one could look at hormone changes throughout the month and talk about why that might be Etc etc I had many scientists here talked to me about hormone fluctuations and how that impacts someone feels But what this means in our romantic relationships is sometimes We meet each other on very different wavelengths. Yeah, so my relationship My partner's probably seen me cry once right in Seven years maybe twice and but probably once I've probably seen how cry 500 times maybe more yeah, so it feels it almost feels like And it's going to be completely honest because I just think it's helpful so you can fuck me up online if you're a bit I sometimes feels like We're we're a different species Like the way that I interact with my guy friends and the way that the sort of wavelength that my romantic partner my my girlfriend operates on A very very different so it's very easy to like miss understand and we spend a lot of time talking about how men need to be More emotional and more. I don't know many to change how the how they are. Yeah Because it's the problem but What about the like what about the other side of that which is Do Women also need to think about Do we need to meet in the middle? It's what I'm saying There certainly is space to meet in the middle like he's right in that I don't know is is is is there a person that's right in this configuration I'm I meant to be way more emotional and be Or she meant to be way more composed because I think that's often how both sides feel They feel like why aren't you coming to my wavelength from this issue? But I think here's what you're missing she would be much more composed if you would be more emotional Hmm And so a lot of times what I find in my own marriage is When I show emotion the more composure is I mean if I start screaming and crying I think my girlfriend's good. I'm not saying screaming. I'm saying show emotion What kind of emotion of being in it with her? I want to not look like That means you're going to say things that Make her feel it There's a difference if I just go static. That's what happens to me a lot Truthfully is let's say we're in an argument about something or something came up and So you're as emotional about it if I dismiss it Okay, this is so dumb really right now. This is because arguments never come at the most opportunity I'm thinking about the worst possible time. Yeah, that's hello. That's all relationships If I dismiss it right does that make her come closer to me or further away from me And if I'm pushing her further away from me, why would she not be more emotional? Why would she why would she not be Further away from me if I dismiss that For every woman to be more emotional as a man tears are not necessary Connection is being in it is saying things that make her feel that you're you're genuinely feeling it the difference I find with men and what I struggle with is I can say that I'm sad. I have a hard time expressing sad. I can say that I'm really regretful. I have a hard time expressing that I think that is something that happens a lot With most relationships and I think that happens a lot with men of We were emotional and we got taught early that You are not to cry. We I couldn't even tell you how many times I ever saw my dad cry I think this is it the modeling we had as well is What my dad was either angry or completely static and when I say angry he was very very rarely angry Right, but but when I saw him engage with my mom on an emotional level. Yes, it would be Him yelling back, right If he wasn't yelling back he was completely just like He was just very calm static with emotional. There was no in between. Yeah, it it all comes down to Repair how quickly you get to repair that means can I validate the feeling that she has validation Is repair it's not weakness. It's repair in my world Relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of 100 moments Where repair could have happened and it didn't We just chose not to or you could have said. I'm sorry, but you was held it I could have chose to validate how you're feeling, but I said that's stupid And it's it's those the hundreds of those little bitty moments where all of a sudden no wonder you're Your worlds apart because you chose in those little bitty moments not to do repair because you said I have this is so stupid. It's so small Yeah, it is small all the more reason why you should repair pretty quickly And so when you can validate those concerns Even when you say she's being emotional you're not When you go into that static mode when I go into that static mode It's a choice by me to do something different Not say the thing I always say not be dismissive not Find ways to try and convince her that she shouldn't feel this way But if I Validate if I say things like I can see how you feel that way If that's how you interpreted it You know, I don't let me feel in that way. I can see that that sounds scary. That sounds frustrating if I can Choose that It's it's this like this isn't the key for me and trust me. I'm talking to myself here. Yeah, all right Because every every guy I feel like I can't be like okay, this is right and if I can Make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration just for a moment put aside my personal frustration Invalidate the feeling and say Words that speak to her need the need to feel heard the need to feel safe The need to feel like she's not being too much Then all of a sudden it all shrinks and you know it my frustration Kind of goes away Why because everything's better now we've we've had moments of repair And then if I still am really frustrated Then I can bring it up. Hey, can I can I bring up something to you that you said that's really bothering me? And then you do how As a man do you know that you're not setting a bad president for the future And what I mean here is yeah, if I constantly you know justify how she's feeling and I and I seek repair and then when she's happy I just let it go There's I think sometimes there's a worry as a man that If you just lay down and take everything then you're just gonna get more stuff in the future like you're setting a bad Presidents for the future of this relationship where no sometimes actually no I wasn't in the wrong or I know I did I do disagree with this right And I think I've observed a lot of relationships especially with some of my guy friends where Because they like never stood up for themselves. Yeah, then I like living in a prison right they like never stood up for themselves. Yes, and so they're they've kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control and they You know even when you're listening to this there's probably people you can think of in your life where the guy has always opted for an easy life in the short term And now over the long time he has a really hard one. Yes, and again men and women Of course, so this is the balance I'm trying to understand in your view is You know, when do you pick the fight and when you say no, that's not Versus just laying down and taking it This is quite this is quite personal to me as well because I think my dad did that a bit too much. I think my dad He never he never chose the fight and then I look at how that played out over 20 years and I'm like damn It's completely changed me because it means that I will now go through the conflict Hmm and stand up for myself when I hit a place where I'm like That I'm not going to be able to honor that few for the next 30 years. I will stand my ground You know if there's like an area where We might my my my summer girlfriends are happier about a certain thing. I do yeah If I don't think that I'm I'm going to be able to promise to not do that for the next like 10 20 30 years If I if I'm unwilling to change yeah, I have to start my ground because if I can see today. It's hell tomorrow Yeah, what what I'm hearing What I'm hearing is fear of autonomy fear of my rights you fear of my Dominance yeah, like my freedom being yeah, yeah, well, it's it's you want to hear the probably the number one word you'll hear With relationships that are on the brink. It's caged Men feels caged You know the man feels caged and really all that is it's a lack of confidence of knowing If I am willing to do something different Then I can't have anything else. So it's it's it's thinking in terms of Zero some see both can be true. I can you can still validate how she's feeling And not at all touch what you still know to be true. So you can still disagree with her But every time we go into a conversation we walk in with a need I need to feel loved understood it is always depths like you think of um Like a kid right my son my daughter if when she was small and She screamed or she cried or told me no Still tells me no, you know of all these things and I just said no Are you kidding me? You're gonna tell me and I you're crying right now really and I get all upset when she screams But with kids we don't do that we go she's hungry. She's tired She's scared and we just forget that we're all just big kids And we all have those like hidden needs underneath us and so You still can stain your ground and say So let's run it. So let's say for example. Yeah, I was a big example from my ex girlfriend I was on my phone in bed and I was sending a message because there's something going on in my business back in the UK And I was in I was in Asia at the time. Yeah, and She said to me that she wanted to make a rule where there was never any phones in bed ever I could never touch my phone in the bedroom, right? And as I thought this through I thought god I thought but all the scenarios where I might need to touch my phone in the bedroom And what would I realized that what would end up happening is I just wouldn't come into the bedroom I'd like go and do it in the in the toilet with the shower or I just like I wouldn't come to bed if I needed to do something on my phone Right And so the conversation went where I was like I realized in this moment that I had to kind of like Not lay down on this issue because I would disappoint her in the future I was setting myself up to fail in the future If I if I accepted this and made her some kind of promise though, you know, I agreed that we I wasn't gonna touch my phone Ever again in the bedroom And so that was one such example where I'm like I think I actually need to stand my ground a bit here or I'm setting myself up for future expectation. I can't meet So in that moment, what did you think? Her need was her need was connection and she was interpreting me being on the phone in that space as a disconnection in some way And Could it possibly be perceived as that 100% Okay, but it wasn't the phone. It was the it was the It was me not it was her not feeling connected. I in my view it at that moment in time in that particular week Because I was so busy in that particular week that I think she was trying to find Uh a symptom or a tool or a guarantee or a promise to express The feeling of disconnection. So that's why I look back on it Go it was actually something else. That was just a symptom of a feeling she had at that moment in time probably right But that was an example where I like I if I'd conceded it would have it would not have been Sustainable that would have been more arguments in the future. I'm not saying you concede I'm saying there are times that if you want the key to the relationship it is Putting her comfort over your inconvenience. So what should I have done in that situation? Give me some advice. Do you think? What you've already kind of named it One she's it's not you saying What the wrong thing to say is well you were just on your phone. I mean you just I mean you're on your phone You're on the phone all the time. What are you talking about and you start arguing because now you're Responding to the reaction. You're not addressing the need if you were to slow down and say Look, I still want to be connected with you. Is there a any kind of Place where I can still take care of what I need to take care of and also Be connected to you or if there's a situation where you say well, what about this Before I just get my phone and grab it. I'm going to tell you what I'm doing ahead of time. I'm going to ask Maybe that's where it is. You don't want to ask. Hey, I Greg is supposed to email me some Slides or a deck or whatever. Can I check that out real quick? You hear how she's probably going to say yes But the fact that you are saying hey, I'm acknowledging our connection right now And see you might make you uncomfortable saying I don't I don't like anybody telling me what to do I don't have to I don't want to report to anybody. Okay. That's that's fine Well then you just know That connection is always going to be weakened. So you you're signing your name to that I don't think I mean there's I have lots of thoughts on phones and houses And where they should go but if you were to have Instead of arguing the what are you talking about your on your phone all the time and instead Said I can see how That would make you feel like I'm not paying attention to you and letting her respond to that and you say Like I don't want to me being on this. This is not at all me trying to signal that I'm not trying to be here with you. I'm trying to escape on you and have that conversation And that's where you can say it is important to me that I have these things and for me to be able to connect with you and kind of rest my brain I need to take care of these things What's the best way that I can do that? I think then that's when you actually are able to have a conversation of like let's make a game plan that makes sense because If you you put your inconvenience over her comfort she will always Discredit that to you your bank account will always continue to to go low And if but if you say look I'm willing to do a little bit of inconvenient things to make you feel better Make you more comfortable I mean that that only grows your account. I mean that that when when you have a relationship that can last all that longer. I think I'm slightly traumatized because I think the model that I had of relationships meant that Someone can increasingly sort of encroach on your freedom. Yes until you are Virtually powerless. I think that's a lot of guys and I've felt that. I've certainly felt that. Yeah, so I try and fight back And sometimes I think I overdo it and this is what this is one such example where actually objectively when I hear myself say Shows me not to Like being on my phone in bed. I'm like well, that's kind of a reasonable request to be honest like the bedroom Can be a place where we just like go on the fence I could just do it my office and then come to bed when I'm ready, right But I think my I get my backup because I've just got so many examples of men who like didn't stand up for themselves Yes, and then we're rendered powerless down the line So it's like if I give you this and tomorrow you're gonna say maybe you can't be on my phone in the kitchen Yeah, and then maybe I can't be in my phone in the bathroom And then yeah, so I just thought wait if I just stand up for myself here then I just hold off that what I'm not all saying is that the guy go Yeah, sure, that's fine in the chat for something. Yeah, sure That's fine and you just you're super passive with everything that's where I think you do feel like you're just you look around You're you've given up everything to where you don't feel like I have anything to to grab on to I want to throw in another example that a lot of people relate to a lot of men have like a hobby with their guy friends Right like watching the football talking shit in the group chat. Mm-hmm. I think it's so important to defend those things Absolutely even for her attraction to you Like I think I have no evidence to say that this is true. Just a feeling I think to some degree that my partner likes the fact that I'll stand up for myself in certain in certain areas I know that I'll say no no no no this is me time this is for me I agree And I can imagine the opposite the passivity or kind of rolling over As being a really like unattractive thing Absolutely, I think where you or Laying yourself down or just rolling over that is that can't be very unattractive It's you need to have a backbone at the same time you can't be so extreme that your ways the only way But when you choose to say no, no, this is I'm gonna willing to take a stain here then that's I think to me it sends a signal of strength right a strength of mind strength of will But for me when you have those things that are your hobbies the things that you really like A sign of a good relationship is that she's gonna be happy you get to do those because they make you happy Even though she might hate it and think it's annoying and it's weird and you know You're taking up that space in the garage and whatever But if it makes you happy and they know that this is your space and this is your time because I you have to have those things that fill you up right and The truth is the marriage isn't enough the kids aren't enough your jobs on enough you have to have things That personally for you by yourself if your thing is to go to a pond and go feed ducks go do it You know to be able to fill yourself up if you if I know for parents early parents there's this this this mindset of I have to be with my kid all the time I can't ever leave my kid that I need to just be there But What you find is you'll be so much better when you actually go take care of yourself and go on that guy's trip Go play that round a go off or whatever it is that's actually going to Feed you and fill you up and then I can be there for you all the more. I think some people's partners They don't they're not like that some people are in a relationship where their partner cuts out As much of these things as they possibly can yeah so that they can control their partner I mean, I think we've all got a friend in the group chat. Oh, yeah, who Yeah, it's kind of like seems to have lost all their freedom and that autonomy and agency since they've been in that relationship They're on a leash. Yeah, they're on a leash like they can never come to the thing That's not okay and it appears to be a consequence of boundaries like not reinforcing your boundaries early It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope boundaries. Oh, yeah Do you know what I mean like where you like you kind of make a concession and because you've made a concession They're more likely to pursue another concession right and then before you know it you're behind bars alone Yeah, and and frustrated and wondering how you how you got here. I know we've spoke about boundaries in the past to me It ultimately comes down to am I protecting the priority? so If I know that my marriage is the priority, I'm gonna set boundaries and that protect that I mean for me and my life right now whether I'm working on a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever It's am I setting the boundary up to be protecting my My family and my relationship So you have to first define what is the priority here? So if the priority is knowing that We want to be you and your partner want to be in relationship and you know make sure that Thursday is date night Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled on date night. There's certain things that just aren't movable the answers no And when you can have those really hard nose It makes Feeling the time of everything else all that much easier, but that's it I mean it ultimately comes down to are you being real about it? Are you being fake about it? In your view You talk about being nice and being kind I've heard you talk about this on your podcast What's the difference between being a nice person and a kind person? Which one should I spy to be Stop being nice at the expense of being real So nice is something that we got thought really early on hey be nice play nice and if you Believe forever and always that being nice serves you well You will ultimately serve it You will people please you will only choose to say the nice thing you will Nice is very surface If you went on a date with somebody and I was like how's the date and you said she was nice Yeah, yeah, yeah, is that mean that was good? No, of course, but you want to say the nice thing And so it becomes very much about pleasantries of what's Something that that is politically correct or whatever it is Kind is very deep it's related to the word kin. It's its connection. So where Nice is concerned about surface kind is worried about connection. So So Nice people say oh, I can't tell in the truth. That's that wouldn't be nice. That wouldn't be nice I can't say that Kind says I care about you enough To say the truth that I care about you enough to tell you the truth So when you have the chance don't choose Nice at the expense of being real choose the kind thing I give you and I Were In a conversation and I was like I could really I could just go yeah, man. That sounds great With the decision you're gonna make because I just I don't want to upset you that that would be nice versus me saying Stephen out I have to tell you man This doesn't feel right to me Which one's the kind thing of of telling you the actual truth? It's being authentic to it So a lot of people they they look back and they're just people pleasing. That's all they've they've been because I've always chosen what's nice Now what's kind you must get a lot of messages from a lot of people pleases all the time And what is it they want from you They're wanting to know how to stop pleasing other people and to start start pleasing themselves like how to I always say that there's not a problem with people pleasing as long as you're one of them. Yeah of of It's okay to do things that other people ask you to do and you want to serve other people I'm not saying it in a as a servitude way of I can never have any of my own It's it's where you constantly or Put yourself in inconvenient Places for the sake of other people hoping that they will see your true value. So they conflate The pleasure of others with the value of themselves And so meaning I mean nothing to myself if you're not happy with me I mean nothing to myself if if I can't please you you you want this? Oh, okay, I'll go get it I mean you this you tell me do this. Oh already thought about this you'd love this and they've forgotten Their own sense and so I've met people that have You know, a lot of it's also early childhood Right they they learned that to save the marriage between mom and dad they need to be everything to everybody They have to give up they they've missed childhood in order to please everybody else And so it becomes a pattern of safety. It's a survival skill of knowing for me to have To survive in this for me to have worth Well, I can't do it unless everybody else is happy with me Are there any case studies that come to mind of people that have read your work and have made real transformations that have Shocked you or made you happy or proven to the profundity of being able to take control of conversation We took us a survey pull within my membership And it was already think it was like 93% of people with even in the first Three chapters of my book it had already significantly impacted them in their job their family and exactly what they were reading the book for It's everybody picks it up for the conversation they have in their mind You know, they people don't watch my content to handle to know how to handle the last conversation They watch to know how to handle the the next one And so to be able to provide the results of their warning Is a blessing I've just finished writing my third book I haven't firmved up the title yet, but I have started walking up some different designs And I've been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details the typography the font the color the text placement The stuff that might sound petty to most people but actually compounds to create something that stands out Something that's one better than the rest and designing my cover art has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the year, but it's also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me They're also sitting on their own secrets So I've created the one better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to you And in it you'll find principles from the very very best in their industry turned into quick and easy practices for you to apply So you can train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world do Just head over to adobe.ly slash one better to download adobe express now And make sure you visit the learn tab to discover how you can become one better than the rest Is there a particular moment of conflict which you stays with you the most when you think about a difficult conversation in your life Yeah there was one That I I talk about my book that was probably the most gut wrenching at that time was me leaving the law firm where I was at I haven't talked to my dad about leaving that firm, but that's Let's say that's in the the book what's fresh for me now you want to talk about that? I mean what's fresh for me now is conversations that I've had with my wife with Sierra and I'm having a hard time I Reaching I'm and she's having a hard time reaching for me where I kind of just go static Where I do feel sad I do feel remorse or I'm trying to in it. I have a hard time expressing it So the best thing I can do that mine is I use my words to be able to say You know I I feel regret for what's happened or what I've done and I may not be shown right now, but I This is not something I'm proud of to be at least able to show in my words how I'm feeling so it let's say for example, it's About anything related to if it could be any argument really with a Has been in a wife or a spouse or partner or whatever it is, but we had one not too long ago where We knew we were going to be traveling for a bit and Sometimes if it's just the two of us what's gonna happen you're gonna You're gonna have some spats about probably the dumbest things you could probably have a fight about but that's what what happens and I said to her I was like well that you know if we do this and do that you know, we'll probably We're not probably gonna argue about it. It's gonna be fine. And she said to me. She said well Either way, it's good Meaning if you don't argue about something great, but if we do argue about it That's good too to be able to see it as a chance to understand each other a little bit more to know each other a little bit more and It's it's it's not without being radically honest With the person you want to be with And that's that's hard for a lot of people Had a friend of mine say to me the other day that the thing that I know is the most about his wife is just like how long she takes to get ready And he like really like offloaded it to me in a way where I'm like this is a problem For him. Yeah, she just takes so long to get ready And she's like which means they're always late to things a lot of guys can relate to this including myself But the way he said it to me was was surprising and I remember thinking should he just Go and have this conversation with her or is this like an illegitimate Concentre raise and I think this sometimes with you know because you were talking about Your experience with Sierra and her saying like either way. It's a good thing our all arguments warranted like is that argument you take too long to get ready and it's pissing me off Is that a valid thing to raise with your partner and Therapy they say if it's hysterical. It's historical Meaning if it's really that big of a deal then there's probably something deeper going on It's really affecting you that much It's like those people who say well, he's always pushing my buttons. I ask a wiser button You know, it's if if it's always getting you worked up There's probably something deeper that you're not noticing It's probably related to something that happened when he was a kid or something that maybe it's Here gonna give a good example You know and and our marriage I'm the spender. She's the saber. Okay. She can turn a penny into a dime. All right You can pinch a penny into a dime and She got really frustrated with me of like why do you always need the nicest thing? All right, and that's typically if she has an option of several things Even if I don't know the price tags I typically end up going with the one that's most expensive and that infuriates her Her because she she wouldn't do that. She's gonna wait for it to go on sale It she could have something she really wants and she's just gonna track it forever in her mind until it goes on sale And that's that gives her a satisfaction me. I just goodbye And I'm not saying I'm crazy What's what I'm not like some crazy spender, but this is an issue that has always bothered her and bothered me and What we had come to find out we had actually uses with my hey, I actually but What we had come to learn is that The reason why it affected me so much of like why why do you always use the the nice thing is related to when I was a kid As the oldest I I didn't get much of the the nice thing my my stuff was typically Hand me down from a friend or something else or I I didn't get the nice thing And at some point along the way you equate that to your sense of worth And so when I first had the ability to pay for anything for myself. Yeah, I I bought the on-brand Cornflakes, you know, I bought the the on-brand uh, medication Because to me that that was equal to how I wanted others to perceive me and so When she realized that oh, it's not just me wanting to splurge or has some kind of You know, you just think you Have to buy the best it was like no, that's actually it's a reflection of when you buy me something nice I feel like you equate that to how much Value I I hold on that worth buying something nice for and so it was related a lot to my stuff and we got to talk the same about her stuff of why She doesn't want to buy the thing so it's it's like that having these super conversations with your friend of why is it bother her when she gets Takes forever to get dressed. Well most likely It's related to something in his past that's bothered him that he's not Seeing yet or the conversation worth having. Yeah, I think it's absolutely worth having if it's bothering you that much Yeah, if it's hysterical it's historical. I think that's really good point which is where all just dealing with Other peoples in a child like we're all dealing with it's just like me as a child facing you as a child I know we look like adults now. I have a great hat. But yes, it's really still Us just playing out the stories and narratives from our childhood oftentimes you're exactly right They say in therapy the worst thing about parents is that they had parents You know, I mean they they it's so easy for me just to look at my mom And me forget that she had parents, you know that What they did to her Rather than me just looking at what my parents have done to me You know and and that's the definition of the generational cycle and it's choosing to do something different With with who you are and who you want to be in who how you want to raise the next generation But we're it's it's all survival skills It's all childhood trauma that's related to when people I have a section in my book of having people define out their own The communication skills they saw growing up because most of the time if you feel like Arguments have to be this big shouting match and everybody's yelling and it's also typically cultural you know of how Certain cultures how they argue and how loud it is and if everybody versus their sum cultures and families that it's very quiet like I I I'll never forget go into a friend's house and I was about seven and his parents while we're eating cereal like just had at it And I was mortified like arguing arguing arguing Ami Yelling at each other and I am like bow and head mortified and my friend is just eating cereal like I'm by the hand whatsoever That's just another Tuesday, you know, and Whereas I grew up with if my parents argued it was gonna be in their bedroom You know, I knew if they were gonna they went to close the door and they were gonna have A conversation that they didn't want us to hear and so everybody has been modeled something different where The like there's I've seen it on the negative side where people feel like You don't really love me unless you want to fight with me It's because that's all they've been modeled fights They have to say the most hurtful thing they need to be in tears. They need to be saying horrible things each other For them to feel any kind of love And I've also seen it where People are wallflower. They don't want to say anything. They want to Be really hesitant because bad things happen when they spoke out at home They realized that telling the truth Wasn't good for them They they they learned that lies protected them. It's interesting when you have one parent that conducted Themselves in a certain way and the other parent was the opposite Yeah, what then happens to you like which communication style you then adopt Which parent takes more of an interest in you Is where it typically goes the one you're most the time with and see I know people who Their parents are kind of absent, but they spend a lot of time with their grandmother And so I know a guy who he sounds just like his southern grandmother from Kentucky You know because that's who he spent most of his time with And so it's it's who takes the most interest in you. It's it's where the parents But I what I find so interesting and communication we talk Everything is learned from how we were raised is at one point time there is utility to what you were doing There's a utility to lie it protected you protected maybe your mom it protected maybe your dad There's utility to it. There's a utility to manipulating To be able to say things weren't this way in order to keep the family together So there was a utility to the very skill that you still have and eventually it catches up with you What is it about our communication? Do you think that makes us accidentally dislikes by the people? It sounds fake It sounds fake and what how does it sound fake? Give me Give me some color If you want to know the secret if somebody's being fake with you there's really three things that you got to know number one It's what I call Bestie bombing Bestie bombing yeah, so instead of like love bombing It's bestie bombing. I have people who come to me all the time. I feel like somebody's being fake with them And what they're doing is it's oh my gosh, I just were we're literally the same person I think we're best friends and we just met like I just we Or you thought we're just standing next to each other at the same party and you know, oh we've got to go Oh my gosh, you're my best you're at my soulmate and it's like they They give way too much right out of the gate of how much they love you Ah, yeah, and it's it's nothing. It's not what secure people do secure people Don't attach to you instantly. It's not form of manipulation No, it's a form of insecurity. It's a form because if it would be manipulation if they actually meant it It but they don't it's it's these inauthentic relationships that All of a sudden it's like oh my gosh, we we're gonna be best friends. I love you so much, you know I'd I'm I don't even know I don't even know your last name. What are you what are you talking about? So you see that a lot too is the over compliments We all have this sixth sense to be able to sniff out if That's real or not like nobody needs to teach you if it's a fake laugh or not I you know, I mean like yeah I don't know was that really nasty It's so funny yet because we think we can spy for analysis fake laughing right Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's like but nobody had to teach that to you Nobody had to say hey if you hear like this. It's a fake laugh. No, no, no We all as humans that's we have an ability a sense to go and ah that in sound real. That's not a real smile You know people have their like photo smile in the real smile Yeah, and the same with the the laughter or like that's not that wasn't that funny or they over compliment something they compliment your shoes I mean and then they have really they go oh my gosh I love that outfit and then obviously they've turned their head You know what I mean? They're not really truly engaged in what it is. It's just it's it's a ritual to them of that's how they have Learned because to me if you have to perfectly curate yourself this this sense of perfection You you're not getting The real human you're getting a person and character You're getting them and and seen you know, they have to like get into it and so It's it's um it's something that's so so fake every every single time and then I'd The third that you have to watch out for are the people that aren't willing To actually have an interest in you Meaning they never ask anything about you. They're only wanting to talk about themselves I give you ever been in a I know you have and you're networking in a big room and somebody's looking at you and all of a sudden They're looking at the room like they're They're looking for who they're gonna talk to next and you've lost them And so it's like why we're both just kind of here Saying things you're gonna slow down our words So it's not as awkward and you say things like yeah, that's that's crazy Yeah, and like while you're both looking for somebody else to talk to but that's what happens You realize you state you come out of focus and they they're looking for the next person I really am surprising point of Feedback or compliment someone gave me once and it's surprising because I never considered it to be something that people were noticing Is when I do like meeting greets yeah, and you're meeting say a hundred people before or after a talk or whatever and they're coming up one one at a time I will get DMs in the preceding days of people telling me That they liked the way that they watched me pay attention to someone else. Do you get this other time? Yeah, they're watching they're watching how how interested you are in the person that's talking to you I didn't I didn't obviously it's not something I thought about before until Probably had about 20 messages over the last Year or two from people saying and you know what I know to Stephen how much you are paying attention to the person that spoke to you Right not to them exactly. They were in the line. Wait. See, but it's the part and I just thought that's so interesting that we judge Other people by how they interact with other people while we're watching as well. Right And being interested is seen as makes you like a book I guess Presence is the highest form of authenticity I can talk to you, but am I here with you If I do I have my eyes with you my my interest is In you am I gonna? It my easily distracted and I have my phone am I am I really paying attention or am I making sure that you know You are the most important thing that's happening in this moment even if it's a glimmer And even if it's for 30 20 seconds and you're doing a meet and greet and you're saying hi or are you signing their book? Do you ask them their name? Do you use their name? Do you look at them with intent of true genuine thank you for being here None of this would happen if not for you people are watching the whole time and they they they know I mean it's it's it's such a It's like what you know it when you feel it you kind of thing and to me is it's presence Am I am I truly here with you? Okay, because even at the house, you know, you can say well, I'm home all the time But are you are you just like on your phone? Are you just sitting on the couch? Are you always reading or you That's not presence I'm gonna play this video on the screen for anyone that's watching the video. Okay, but it immediately made me think of um This clip that went viral of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. I haven't seen this they were doing a meet and greet Together and they were just chatting through each other and kind of ignoring the fans and you can I I just remember thinking this is like the antithesis of what we've just said hmm It's painful to watch. I know it's painful for the people. I mean I it's several layers of where One it's in an area of really little forgiveness You know, if you think of somebody of of her caliber so to say of like her celebrity right seen thousands millions it's happened and is it really room for Just having a conversation with somebody like if I if you're her how do you what would be the justification? Right if you could just pause and say what is it maybe you say well there isn't any okay? That's fine But let's say one when it comes to presence There's really not an e-room for Forgiveness it's it's either you're present with them or you're you're not because this kind of thing can last forever second of all people will Forget what you did but they'll never forget how you made them feel and people will remember you Stephen of They will tell their kids and their grandkids of the time that they met you and how nice you were how present you were And how you Regenially interested in them and that makes all the difference if you have one slip up That's why I say it's it's it's not very forgivable when when you have one slip up It's showing applied to all because if you can do it to them you can do it to me The slip up will also travel much further faster too That because I guarantee you you know, you think of all the meet and greets that somebody like that has had and it's had genuine Real interest they they mess up one time to get tired one time Well, then all of a sudden that's what travels way faster So the thing is that that's why I say presence is the highest form of authenticity because if you can Take that moment to be truly interested in somebody because who am I You know, I'm a guy from a small town who made videos in my car And you're gonna come to my book signing and you traveled and you flew in two hours like why would I not hold up? Take the line let me spend three minutes with you can I give three minutes of my life to talk to you? What are you doing here? And so when you have That humility and there's several people I know you know many names of They they forgot how they got what they got oh yeah I have a really interesting example of this recently where we appointed new chairman to our company. He's called Nikki and Incredible guy. He's been at like even Procter in gamble doing product for I don't know 12 years then went to Boston consulting group and Was one of this senior figures at Boston consulting group for 25 years and you know he's in the This the home stretch of his career. Mm-hmm and he joined our company and He is you know, he's achieved so much. He's he's worked with the biggest the best in the world globally, right? So he's got the right one would say I like to be a certain way That's what some might say But I'm over here in Los Angeles Um, he joins the company as chairman and the interesting thing the interesting feedback I got I know 5,000 miles away Was a very junior member of the team came up to me and said oh, I love Nikki. I was like explain He went he sat down with me and gave me an hour of his time That was the reason he loved him. That was it. That was it. It was presence And what what I later found out was that Nikki went into the company and there is hundreds of people And he sat down with every single one of them regardless of whether you're an intern or whether you're the CEO And it always it's always stayed with me how much that has mattered How much that has shaped his perception just disproportionate he's brilliant in everything But disproportionately shaped his perception just by Giving someone the most valuable thing which is just their time. Yes And I'm I mean, maybe it's a story of how to be a good partner Maybe it's a story of how to be you know in the public eye right maybe it's also a story of how to be a great Colleague or team member or leader. Yeah, or just a great human. Yeah, I think There is um When you're always in the habit of giving Giving then feels a lot like receiving So when I'm giving my time It also feels like I'm receiving that time back when I can continually have that spirit And you have that knowledge of Humility and say what does humility mean? It means you realize that you are just as weird and terrible as everybody else When you realize I'm I'm the chief worst person There is now I'm not better than a single person that is in line to To do or attend something or sit in an audience I'm no better. I've just been through a lot Still been through a lot and so I know a lot and when you have that mindset of I want to meet and touch every single person if I were to come in here and Only talk to you, but not talk to your team Hmm What do you think that's gonna do when when you can go somewhere and not just Who's the most popular But also talk to who's the least like it's it is uh You will always get way more and for yourself and for the other person when you can lower yourself to say Hey, we're just humans in a room. How's it going? It's interesting that we um with figuring people out by how we observe them Vicariously we're talking about it in the context of like a meeting group a second ago Yeah, what you said there tracks perfectly with that which is when you walked in the room You didn't just speak to me you also asked Futter who's like recording the podcast today what her name was and then you said to butter you said Thank you for doing this right now. Isn't it funny that I remember yeah, yeah Isn't it funny that that was like two and a half hours ago and I remember because it was really memorable to me that you did that Because not everybody does that yeah, everybody will you know notice that Bird is in the room with us and she's running all these cameras and she's putting it together But for some reason just before we started recording you made a point of asking her what her name was and then And then thanking her for doing this today. Yeah, most people don't do that And as you walk away from today I'm not going to remember like that you walked in and said something nice about me or whatever The most shocking thing and therefore the most memorable because it is the most unusual Because it is typically the most overlooked is you acknowledging the other people yeah, and um I've noticed this as a paradox that I almost need to put words to but I remember In something I wrote a long time ago Saying how useless absurdity will define you more than useful practicality And what I mean by that is the example I was giving was in the context of my old gym Where they have this massive climbing wall in the entrance and I came home to my girlfriend and said this is incredible gym It's massive. They even have a hundred foot climbing wall in the entrance What I'm doing is I'm pointing at the most absurd thing To give you a shortcut that tells you everything about that gym If I put it the most absurd thing you know the gym is big. Oh, I got chills. Yeah, yeah Yes, if I say there's a hundred foot climbing wall, you know there's lots of running machines Right, so if I if I when I leave here and go he was so nice He even spoke to Bertoron um thank her for doing the podcast I'm using that as a shortcut Because it's the most standout absurd thing to tell other people everything about yes I love that and this is why we should value the seemingly pate and seemingly small and seemingly inconsequential Because other people don't therefore it creates maximal impact. Yes That's why the big conversation rarely matter the small ones do It's the small ones with strangers. It's the conversations. You don't have on the stage It's the conversations you have on your driveway. It's the conversations you have on your backyard at the coffee shop It's it's the conversations you have the somebody passing by in the elevator like it's those That that's what defines the human experience if I were to Text you a compliment right? That's one thing But if I were to say hey, I just finished lunch was so and so who you also know I got to tell you this person loves you so much and and I share with you what they said about you You're gonna take that differently If I wanted to give you let's say somebody want to give me a gift right but instead they didn't give it to me. They give it to my kids I Mean that's how much more with that define how much they care Right, it's anytime I go on a stage I make it a priority that I know the guy who's or girl who's putting on my the AV system the lapel mic the everything I want to know their name on a how how many times they've done this today? How they're doing because it's so easy just to turn and Keep talking to who's important while and act like they're just doing it like it's When you can truly talk to the people That's just a regular person and forget that you you don't have to just stick to the somebody's you don't have to look always for the somebody's I used to say that I again this comes from employing a lot of people that we all have invisible PR Hmm, and it's and it shows up in the moments that matters the most But it's built in the moments that seem to matter the least yeah, and the example I always think of is being working in the New York office many years ago and getting a message from my team members are saying I'm Jenny so nice. She just Tim tripped over and Jenny immediately got up from her desk and ran across To the first aid kit and sorted him out. She's so nice and I'd hear that 3,000 miles away And then a year later I'd be sat with Jenny during her promotion conversation. Yeah, and that one Thing she did that small thing she did Wasn't often the time where I go do you know what this person is a certain type of person and we should Right double down in them and then I've got the opposite as well I've got the a little thing someone did to someone who was not necessarily their line manager or significant yeah, and it you know And even things that happened to me right years ago when I came up to say I walked up to someone famous I've just told this story before it's so crazy. I told this during the podcast. We episode three No one listened and then Like three four years later the podcast got bigger and people started listening to people go back to the old episodes And this famous person tweeted me like four years later. I was like I heard you're talking about me in the UK But I was just sharing it as an example for like invisible PR where someone I'd gone up to someone famous and asked them a question and they just like Bye. Yeah, like they didn't to me right and I you know, I don't know what they're going through that day But it wish you know what that's but that brings it around like full circle because Like we just said you could have those little moments where it's it's the rock wall right where it little moments of connection of Presence of real authenticity of them being with you that you'll remember forever And I bet if I had to guess there's a moment in And Stephen at the playground growing up that a teacher Somebody in your life said something that was nice and you've remembered forever. Oh, yeah But I Would also venture to bet yes before you even said I could I thought of the moment That okay playground Stephen where somebody said something hurtful yeah or rude or said something about how you look your appearance Maybe not even recess but sometime in your life. Oh, yeah, and it was just something maybe it was about For a lot of people it's like they're wait or their appearance or their looks And they've carried that around with them forever and that like Without knowing it that person gave you an insecurity for the rest of your life And so it's so wild to me how the positive is remembered the negative Is remembered much longer and travels a lot farther And I mean it's when I ask that to a group that I'm talking to There's hands are always way more raised for the negative for the one thing that the power of your words Last way longer than you'd ever think the ripple effect will affect people you've never met I mean you think think of the people who you've touched And the people you've never met but yet they have a perception of you based three persons down Right and how I talk to my kids will affect how they talk to their kids and their kids Children are never meet and when you realize that How I talk to the person behind the cashier affects how He or she talks to their kids when they go home Based on what I said will determine whether they come home and say I had a really bad day I had a really hard day And it's because of what I said because I was rude or I was impatient because they didn't get it to me fast enough And all of a sudden without knowing Just as much as the positive last so does the negative it's now I What I chose to say is Responsible for how they're treating their own kids And that's what how we are as humans right like we um the reason why we survived is because we're good at gossip That too we're good at passing on stories You know I could tell people before they met you if you were a risk No, yeah, I could you know don't go near him. Don't go near that cave there. That's right. Yeah, yeah Person in there that's gonna kill us so right. It's a survival adaptation I guess in some respects to be gossipy and to pass on people's reputations But we've always asked what's the news? Yeah, you know people going through town from town to town You didn't you know really have a paper. It's do you have any news? So I'm gonna push you to close to give me The five things that you think are most important For anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator conversation list To get what they want out of life Which is really what I think is it is the last domino when we talk about body language or communication tactics All the things we're talking about I think people are trying to get something out of life Whether it's to have a better relationship or to Be respected or what get a promotion to be successful. I think that's probably the the output we're looking for Ultimately do you agree with that? I don't want to Like what is it that it was the last domino that people are looking for when they talk about this stuff up here Self-worth self-worth. Okay. Am I am I enough? I'm I enough? Okay So what are the what are the five most important things to summarize if you had to give me five the first Is authenticity If I cannot be genuine with you if I cannot be real with you Then I can be nobody to you and on authenticity You know in your bad day. Are you still authentic? Yes, yes, like if you're if you're really You know having a bad day do you show up to work as your authentic self? I would say yes me there's obviously certain parameters that are within social norms of Just because I'm having a bad time in unbad mood. Is that give me a right to Rip you a new one just because you said hello to me that morning, you know, no, but I think that there is certainly a space to say Don't act like you're happy when you're not what about lying is that a violation of authenticity? So colleague comes up to me. They say what you think of my new Hair cut and you think it's terrible. Yeah, what'd you would you say? It's an interesting choice Probably what I'd say so you wouldn't lie. No, I wouldn't I would probably change it to where it's I'm glad that they like it You know, I I don't have to like it for you to give any type of worth if you like it. That's awesome An authenticity authenticity is a strategy builds trust over time. So that's a long-term game I guess yeah, no, I came across some research Recently where it was in social settings those that are more Authentic are also the ones that are more trusted and the ones you want to be around more Why do people struggle with authenticity? It goes back to this point about people pleasing I guess but There is a certain type of person. I think that probably struggles to just be You know, just to sharpen all the ways that they They are to be themselves they grew up in places that weren't safe Whether physically or emotionally They grew up unsafe and so they're always tense They're always anxious They're always worried about the next shoe to drop. They can't rest You see people that had come from very hard harsh environments You'll see the survival skills that have come out of that um It's because they they simply didn't have a place to be safe Number two Reduce the amount of distraction reduce Distraction is that the same as saying like increase presence Well, that is the benefit of it. Yeah If you want to increase your presence you have to eliminate distractions and that means eliminate how often you're on your phone I've got some thread here Do you know where this is here? Yes Well you explain. Oh, I mean So Just a piece of very pretty red string And this string is going to represent the connection between the two of us So give you the end of it What I just gave you is a piece of string and it connects Between your hand and my hand and it's taught right now So this string right now represents the connection between us in conversation. It's tight. It's very tight I'm going to ask questions throughout this that don't think about How what the right answer is just go with what your gut instinctive how it feels So right now it's tight and if I look at you and the I NSA Steven how's it going man It's going good. Yeah. Yeah. What was something that frustrated you yesterday My head got thing good plan. It tell me about it It's just not good. I didn't like it It do you find that some of the the biggest struggles you had yesterday was mostly with business or personal or tell me something with business Um Stroubles with business. Yeah, go ahead Okay, so you're on your phone now and the connection has been reduced Um, yeah, so I just pulled out my phone and now I'm looking and what did you feel in the line? I felt like the tightness went it went loose. Yeah, I went slack. All right, but that's the physical was emotionally how did that feel It felt disrespectful. Yeah And see if I had just both had both hands on it like this Now let's put it taught again and I'm talking to you and I say so what's what are you looking forward to this weekend? I'm looking forward to No, go ahead and this is me just trying it's still tight. Don't worry. It's I still I'm connected to you know Don't worry about it. I'm right here. Go ahead. Yeah Exactly you see how all of a sudden you want it to let go now. Yeah, yeah For anybody listening so you we both had it tight I look at my phone while still holding tight where I'm saying no, no, I'm listening go go right ahead and all of a sudden You are the one that let go of the line. Yeah, isn't that something because all of a sudden you gave up on the conversation You didn't want to be in it anymore. What do you typically do is somebody's at dinner with you and they pull out their phone I mean you look away or you can speak someone else or you pull out your phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly You it's like they've given you permission to now pick up their phone somebody gets on their own And you don't want to look awkward or odd so what do you you normally get out yours the next thing you know both of you are on your phones At dinner We're supposed to be communicating with each other and you're just staring at your phone So I think I sometimes think this with me being an interview having this iPad in front of me I'm like should I get rid of the iPad? Maybe I should because I've write things down while someone speaking to me I do worry sometimes That if I'm like looking at a particular point or fact or whatever that I'm It's a little bit different. So there's a part of this that is It's it's a production we have cameras we have lights like this isn't a normal Just if you and I were having coffee, but let's say you and I were having lunch And I'm talking like this to you and I put my phone right here Do you feel a different yeah, I do you feel I'm more connected or less connected? Yeah, and if I mixed priorities not to the priority Do you feel any different if I flip it over yes, I do in my faces. It's down. Yes, I do That's a signal of Thought you think this is more important and you don't want to be distracted Imagine what would you feel like if You were on a date or got together with a friend and You just said hey, where's your phone? He said, oh, I just left it in the car. I just want to sit with you Yes, it's incredible. Is anybody do that? No, no nobody does that But imagine imagine if right now there was Let's say a woman is about to go on a date and She asked the guy where's your phone and he goes oh, I left it in the left it in the car I mean what kind of you was kind of weird. Yeah, almost like what you mean you want to be Solly interested in me. I'm signaling that there's nothing else more important than what's going on right here So that's so such a typical behavior some people might see as a red flag. I know that's probably true But if I have right here even if I've put it face down on the table and I'm talking to you I'm at least still having my world my business my stress my kale. It's my It's my pacifier. You know, you know guys me take away my blanket are you yeah? And so I'm still it's still there in the conversation with us So even if I put it down or I put it with my legs or I put it in my pocket which I think is much better of Not letting it come out at all but it's What's the strength of the connection because we've all been that person like we just showed with the string where They get out their phone while you're talking and like mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, uh, right go ahead and you go I don't want this yeah, you let go because it's like why that's this isn't real This isn't real connection So if you want to be a better communicator You have to understand the definition of true connection. That's keeping it taught I'm so shocked when I go to restaurants with my girlfriend because we have a rule And this is actually rule that I completely agreed with yeah Yeah, yeah, which is like when we go on a date or we get to a restaurant there's no phones exactly We're not going to be on our friends in a restaurant. It's mind blowing mind blowing We went to um when we were here we've been here all this week and and We went to a restaurant us here and I and I saw so many couples and people and friends and that were just at the table And it was it was dark evening and all you see it's a glow of phones Is everybody just sitting there on their phone? It's just it's crazy to me or or the people that are on their couch With the TV on In both of them are on their phones and they're supposed to be watching a movie together You know everyone people watches a little bit and yeah So I'm not gonna pretend we don't yeah, they're just like I'm not gonna do that. Yeah But so we we'll be in a restaurant and we just sometimes play a little game where we kind of guess How long people have been together based on how they're behaving? Oh, I like that. Yeah, it's fun And so it's it tends to be the case that it's the younger couples Where there's a man and a woman and they're both on their phone And I just can't believe what I'm saying. Yeah, it's pretty good I got my phone a lot But if I'm on a date I am not gonna be sat there looking at a screen while she sat there looking on a screen just in total silence Even if I've known this woman for 35 years. Yeah It's become so much of an emotional pacifier when I don't like the angst of having to wait in line by myself I don't like having to sit on the The subway or the tube or the metro whatever by myself. I get out I get out my phone. I don't it prevents me from having to have Dialogue so instead. I'd rather just look at my phone and watch and scroll versus communicating like There's imagine waiting for your haircut and everybody in the room is actually Talking to one another like they used to and there'd just be wild to you everybody in a doctor's office in the waiting room everybody's Looking at their Phone so yeah to me it's such a distraction and that means even at the house too I think even more so when it comes to the house. So that was point number two which was reducing distraction I'm therefore increasing presence three Stop over explaining You have to invest in the right words meaning if you are constantly just Gushing words the whole time Does it make you want to listen to that person more or less? Oh? Yeah, I mean you just kind of discounted yeah, yeah all of a sudden it's it's kind of like the That store about the boy who cried wolf like you you talk so much that the message gets lost if I'm always Talking a lot It's easy to tune it out. It's like it becomes its own static But if you choose your words if I'm gonna slow down. So how do you how do you stop yourself from over explaining? Instead of being a waterfall Be a well Meaning rather than trying to gush out information get them swept away in your message You have a confidence in holding your knowledge if they have a question the last You're available for the question should they want to ask? I'm gonna give you always exactly what you need if I choose to be a well with my information rather than just gushing Because when I over explain All somebody's doing is indicating that I don't really know if I believe what I'm saying or you believe what I'm saying So I need to say more. I noticed there's such power in when someone asks you a question Taking a moment to think and actually sometimes I notice some people will actually say let me just think about that And the minute they do that I'm I'm Immediately doing the opposite of discounting what they say. I'm now actually At baited breath to think about to hear this very thoughtful considered thing They're about to share with me right whereas you see a lot of people do the opposite the minute there are Anything it's just like the flood gates open. Yes, and they start filling the silence with and they start thinking out loud exactly The external thinkers what I teach is let your first word Be your breath Meaning when you put a breath where the first word should be Everything else flows if I start gushing what I'm signaling is You know, I don't most people wait until they're talking to figure out what they want to say Yeah And so they say well what I mean to say is well, I say all that to say Because they're still trying to figure it out But if you were to ask me a really hard question and rather than having that need your reaction I go It's a good question Let me think Then you're gonna be you're me in it You're gonna know whatever is about to come out has actually been thought about is actually Gonna be something you want to listen to now you're gonna be more curious Now you wait with baited breath of what's gonna happen? So when you think of business meetings The person who goes oh actually, you know, I would I disagree with that if you look at our latest studies and they just start Versus when somebody asks you know, Stephen, what do you think and you go And you just hold that silence. It's like a cliffhanger everybody wants to hear What you said people who are confident they don't have to say something To show they know something They Choose their moment. They choose their timing It appears they will see the people that are most likely to turn around and say I don't have the answer to that Yep people who are truly confident And No, they don't always have to get it right they know that they will get it wrong Confident people Confidence does not mean you have to know all the answers confidence means you know that you don't When you have the confidence of knowing I don't know everything All of a sudden you settle at more real There's also something about you just being the type of person that's willing to sit in silence But also just take up more space and time that signals respect the very fact that you would have the audacity to say Someone asks me a question and I go Hmm, let me just think about that for a second Yeah, it means that I'm not you you talked about rushing earlier. I don't rush And there's something about the quite aura about that. Mm-hmm. There we go. The fact that you you're not the type of person You're the type of person that can just take seven seconds right because you are it's your you're kind of stealing seven seconds from Everyone there right so that you can think He would think that the the harder the issue the more time that is necessary You think you and instead everybody's equated it to immediate It think when let's say we're on a A ship in it. We're in the middle of a storm Who's the person that they all look to to say? I'm freaking out. I'm scared But the captain isn't you know that he this person knows he she knows And we're constantly looking for that person in times of emotional stress. We're we're wanting someone to You know, I'm too anxious, but I can go to this person because in times of crisis they say you walk don't run You know, I I'm when I act like I've been there before and I've seen this I'm telling everybody else. Oh All if he's not worried. I shouldn't be worried if he's not upset. I don't have to be upset A lot of doctors a lot of professionals that deal with conflict and crisis management It's their job to be as calm as could be because if they Reacted in a way that set you all for situ on edge. Well then there's no there's no anchor and then it's And then it's a bad place to be but yeah, just having that let me think about that for a second Has a different tune of oh wow this person They know who they are they don't rush. That's just not what I do It reminds me of every time I've had turbulence on a plane and I've looked at the flight attendant to see if this thing is going down Yes, I've done that I can't tell you how many times I've done that where I'm looking at the the host is like just walking Go ahead still passing out snacks and not bother. I'm like okay if you want to bother that We do that in conversation every day where we're looking for The conflite attendants we're looking for the anchors the captains the people who in times of stress in turbulence in our life We can look to and say if they're okay, and if they're good then I'm then I can be good And when you can be that person for others you're a leader. No, always you are the leader This is probably the defining trait of I think people that I have employed over the years that I would consider a leader or not a leader Is how different they are when shit is hit the fan yes, and if there is seemingly no difference In the way they're conducting themselves leader yep emotional regulator they bring the temperature down And then you have the inverse Where the minute any kind of sign of trouble there's stress there's There's overwhelmed and it's contagious and what they need is the conflite attendant To regulate them right so I think and people I think who want to be leaders in their professional lives should really think about this like how do you show up when things are hard I always tell the story of one of my friends called Oliver who when I employed him Must have been seven eight years ago Okay, he wasn't my friend when I hired him, but the defining trait of Oliver was that He would deliver me good and bad news The same yeah with the same sort of non-chalant calm Demeanor so he'd walk up to me and say you know, we've just signed uber across America We're gonna be there and then the days where everything was on fire he'd walk up to me. It seemed clever chat I said yeah, cool. It's a just so you know and then he'd deliver some of the worst shot I've ever had a my entire life But he'd do it in such a calm way that I both I was calm And I thought he had it under control right and I remember always thinking I need to put more people under this guy Hmm because he's gonna bring us down and so I just think as employees I wouldn't have known That my boss or my employer is thinking this unless someone had said it to me. They're watching how I deal With what with things which it is the fun. They're always watching anyways. I mean you take people that are watching you and your team you have a large team when when you are upset and anxious Everybody feels it and spreads but if you're the one that's calm it that spreads too and so it's And and you have to get to the situation where if you're upset Then people know it's something to be upset about you know of if You know I had a friend in college he was Upset about everything. I mean, he just was a hot head And you get upset about the smallest things How can you possibly tell the difference between what is a small thing and a big thing if you're always having the same level of reaction But if you have a calmness Unless they then you have an explosion because it happens because you're human That's when people know this is something serious Because if you're always operated at 10 nobody's going to appreciate it when it's really an 11 When you think about like military generals and leaders they also have this other side to them which is They do also protect the standard And I think this there's a there's a balance that's almost needed here between Being non-shelon in those moments where something bad's happened we can't control it now And then how you defend the standard so like you watch the military barracks or ever when they're going through training these leaders are like screaming at them about the standards about the buttons about I in your shirt make your boots clean and so It appears on one end that they are petty about something right and they are remote, you know They are these leaders are emotionally you look at their football football managers. Yeah, or sporting managers Yeah, they they almost exist in a bit of a dichotomy which is like knowing when to be controlled and then knowing when to be emotionally seemingly emotionally irrational about something yeah, and I think those those specific situations are also part of a system you know This is a system that they've seen produce the outcome that they want so they know that there's a utility To having that big reaction or there's a purpose behind it What I find is the negative is when you have people who There's not utility. They just they don't have the words The leaders who let's say curse a lot because they don't really have the vocabulary You know they they would rather Have big emotional reactions But the when you have that type of language that is not going to show that you're in control of your emotions. You're just less believable All I had to do was brain dump imagine if you had someone with you all times that could take the ideas you have in your head synthesize them with AI to make them sound better and more grammatically correct and write them down for you This is exactly what whisper flow is in my life It is this thought partner that helps me explain what I want to say And it now means that on the go when I'm alone in my office when I'm out in a bow I can respond to emails and slack messages and whatsapps and everything across all of my devices just by speaking I love this talk and I started talking about this one I behind the scenes channel a couple of months back And then the founder reached out to me and said We're seeing a lot of people come to our talk because of you so we'd love to be a sponsor We'd love you to be an investor in the company and so I signed up for both of those offers And I'm now an investor and a huge partner in a company called whisper flow You have to check it out whisper flow is four times faster than typing So if you want to give it a try head over to whisperflow.ai slash doac to get started for free And you can find that link to whisper flow in the description below So many of us are pursuing passive forms of income and to build side businesses in order to help us cover our bills And that opportunity is here with our sponsor Stan a business that I'd co own It is the platform that can help you take full advantage of your own financial situation Stan enables you to work for yourself It makes selling digital products courses, memberships and more simple products more scalable and easier to do You can turn your ideas into income and get the support to grow whatever you're building And we've just launched Dare to Dream It's for those who are ready to make the share from thinking to building from planning to actually doing the thing It's about seeing that dream in your head and knowing exactly what it takes to bring it to life Enter to win a hundred thousand dollars for your dream All you have to do is share what it is learn more at dare to dream dot stan dot store So that was number three Stomp over explaining yourself yeah, yeah, yeah, the second one was reducing distractions and the fest was authenticity number four Know how to deal With their sadness A lot of people are hurting That you don't know are hurting and a lot of people are grieving that you don't know or grieving Whether it's the holidays whether it's a An important date or event that you don't know about in their life and they're hurting and grieving If you really want to be a top level communicator you need to know Not to say well not only when the times are good, but also when the times are are bad And how does how does one be there for someone when they're going through that moments of sadness? Is there any principles that one should think about? Yeah, when somebody is grieving What you do not do Is begin with let me know if If you if if what you are about to say begins with let me know if It's the wrong thing to say Let me know if you need anything Let me know if I can do anything for you Just just let me know anything you need let me know All you're doing is giving them a chore But this person's already grieving at this moment they It's they're going through something you don't even know how to feel And you're now given the mature of if they're supposed to be on their own To have the ability to pull out their phone Text their need to you It that's never gonna happen have you ever had somebody say let me know if you need anything actually let you know that they needed something never never because you've now now You've made it More comfortable on you and now more of an obligation on them And we go well, you know what I said all I need to say I let me know if you need anything Let me know how I can help right when all you've done is just Given them an obligation you've you've burdened it even more of course they don't want to burden you They don't they don't even want to they don't even want to live in some of these moments They don't want to exist they don't know how to do it and saying let me know if Isn't going to help them instead Here's what you do in some ways grieving You do the thing Whatever you thought about doing go do it if you wanted to bring them dinner Or said let me know if you need any food just go get them food go do the task go run the errand go show up and do their laundry go Mother yard for them go do the thing If I really want you to be there for me and you really want to be there for the other person You don't have to ask you just go do It's second of all I find a lot of time people Who are with somebody who's grieving they don't know what to say they want to say something like I want to say something I don't I really know what to say I just I feel uncomfortable What I say is not going to be enough and so they just stare at their phone and they kind of takes out a sentence And they delete it because they don't really know what to say The best thing to say is just to validate how you would assume it's going to be feeling for them Nobody deserves What happened that this is totally unfair I can't believe that this has happened nobody deserves this But be able to express and confirm That what they're feeling is exactly what they should be feeling don't go in with the At least they're in a better place Hey, you know what everything happens for a reason that's not the right time to say that if ever That to be able to try and make them feel better of oh, you know, I just at least they're you know not Is there anything I can do? Any of that kind of stuff it's like yeah, I know you can do you can bring that person back That's what you can do that's not going to happen you can't do that and so You catch yourself in a corner where you genuinely have an interest like how many times people say You're in our thoughts you're my thoughts and prayers thoughts and prayers you know praying for you And they haven't once sent up a prayer right they're just saying it if you really mean it Text out the prayer to them Text the prayer dear god. I'm I says that you be with Stephen right now with what Send the prayer to them Why why not encourage them in that versus just saying Hey, just keeping you in my thoughts If you are then text them thinking about you. No need to respond You think just putting it in a Facebook comment is gonna do enough just here in our prayers That's that's not connection and that's not authentic that that's that's the easy shortcut. I think I've spent my whole life Struggling with those moments where some something bad has happened to someone or they've been through something and yeah You found out over text message and you don't have to say you're like I'm so sorry and The math times I've written something and then deleted it and written something and that deleted it and I actually got some feedback from And who is a very well-known youtuber creator and he's he's part of a YouTube channel called Colin and Samir Hit their their houses burnt down in the palisades fire. Mm-hmm, and I'd say what's four five six months later? He came up to me in New York and said um Thank you for the message you sent me because it was specific And I know there's a clip we have a clip of it because we were recording at the time we were I'd just come off stage and he was At his his event in New York and you'd come up to me and said it and it always stayed with me that he remembered six months later I didn't even really remember the message He remembered six months later that when his house had Back burnt down they both just had I think they both had like less than one year old kids And then both of the houses had burnt down I sent him something specific I could help him with I can't remember the details of what I said, but he came up and said thank you for sending me something lots of people sent me messages But I remember you sent me something specific that hits the theme of when you stop trying to be What's most convenient to you? And start doing what might be just a slightly a little bit more Uncomfortable a little bit more work the choice to do something different and be more specific in the thought To not just say so sorry to hear Right that's that's that's injustice to be I mean that's that doesn't even touch it But if you were to say you were to say What is happening is totally unfair I agree with it be specific with it same thing with it's the same with compliments The more specific it is the more genuine it is The person that you remember the longest is the person who's able to be Right there with you and say exactly what you're feeling in that moment and make a genuine offer to support a real Yes, and also not as you said at the start Not enough that they have to accept yet Accept them Yeah, or the make it a condition that they have to reach out to you in order to you consider giving it Instead of just doing it or or even when you Feel that like I don't really know what to say, but I'm you know what if I were them. This is what I Want and go do the thing Otherwise don't say it if you don't mean it. I mean, that's just the to me. That's a sign of You're you're not their person because there's so many people that are just fair-weather friends that they They want to be there and be part of the success, but when your face is on the floor and you're at rock bottom The people you'll remember are the people that show up Amen. I've had that somebody says from my guest on this podcast But they get about the hardest moment and it's always who showed up in that moment that um Number five if you want to be a better communicator you have to know how to handle the insults The backbiting the dismissive the belittling The patronizing the words that people use to try and inflict pain What do I do? If you want to handle somebody who's trying to hurt you with their words the first thing you have to do Is have a bunch of silence Or it's five to seven seconds of Nothing make it make it enough towards uncomfortable where they they know this is not going to be fun number two as you ask them to repeat it I need you to say that again. I need you I I needed to repeat that most of the time people can't do it and number three If I need to I ask them did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound? Brude did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound? Obsiting and what it does is allow you to be able to Operate in a way that Doesn't allow their words to hurt you or to touch you or to cut you Whenever somebody is saying something that's to belittle you or insult you They're putting a big spotlight on themselves and they're hoping to throw it on to you to get your reaction So they're gonna I'm gonna say something hurtful to you and then it's like they're turning the spotlight right to you And then when you ask a question when you have With just silence it allows their words to kind of echo back to them And a lot of people will before they even have to say anything though though I shouldn't have said that When the more silence you have the more awkward it becomes and they kind of have to take it back They realize you didn't take the bait But when you put the spotlight and you ask the question did you do you mean for that to? And Embrace me Did you mean for that to sound hurtful? They can't bear the thought of saying yes to that So they have to tweak it they have to fix it they have to go oh no no no I mean what I mean what I meant to say was and they They go a different way now if they were to double down and say yes, that's exactly what I meant You could just say thank you for letting me know I was thinking about like the neuroscience of what's going on there. Yeah when you get someone to admit that they're hurtful Um, I remember into being some neuroscientists who talked about the side of cognitive dissonance which is where like We all have a perception of who we are And I guess by what you're doing there you're Creating the cognitive dissonance which is the cognitive mental discomfort by making me kind of look in the mirror who I Who I just acted like if I don't think I'm a hurtful person If I say something super hurtful and then you ask me if I meant to be hurtful You're immediately like speaking to my identity. Yes, and I don't want it I'm not a hurtful person right and that's causing the dissonance which is the sort of the Disparity between who I think I am and how I just behaved yes, and so I have to alleviate one of them Yeah, nobody believes they're on the side of bad. They always think they're on the side of good So you by you saying that to me. I immediately have to confirm right then I am a person who's intent on hurting others Yes, that's not a rule what I wanted to do. I just wanted to gaslight you a little bit I just want to cause you pain Yeah, and so in that moment it's What they're thinking and feeling is I want you to hurt like I'm hurt I want you I want to feel the control because I don't have a sense of control And now I'm feeling a certain way. I'm upset So if I can make you upset well then I can have now I can feel better and we're justified about how I'm feeling And so some people will Especially the manipulative ones. They'll be upset say something to make you upset and then turn around and go I don't know why you're so upset I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't know why you're you're so upset and because they've just left you in it now now they All they've done is just pass it on to you Like I don't like this feeling. So now I'm gonna give it to you and I'm totally good. What are you talking about? I had a situation in a gym a long time ago where I was on a machine in a guy He said that these all these machines were here so he wanted to use them all and he just came up to me This was a long long time ago and he was so like Out of pocket like he was you talked about being in the pocket Super emotional within like 15 seconds this sort of slightly old gentleman And basically like ask me if I wanted to have a fight And it was so bizarre to me that I felt like an observer and I genuinely anybody else seeing this Yeah, it was just me him and the gym and I was so I was I felt like David Attenborough But I was just like And I did it and I Inadversately did what you said which is my turn didn't change at all. I spoke to him like this I think did you just ask me for a fight in the gym I was like and then the more because I asked genuinely like genuine curious questions, right? And it immediately disarmed him. Yes. I don't do that to strangers in the gym. Oh my god Yeah, but that's what it is. It's are you okay? You know, it's you have to like have to check on them for a second because most of the time when you're hearing them Yell and and say other things what they're truly signaling is I'm not okay It's there's always something else that's going on. I've done it before where somebody said something hurtful and I said How did you expect me to respond to that? Or how were you wanting me to respond to that? How did you think I was going to respond? And it's I've never had it where They got why I expected you to say an insult like that it's always Them backpedaling and then trying to explain how they're feeling in that moment because they they don't know They don't know how to to do it, but if I can stop put aside like you did your frustration And say are you asking me for a fight right now? You know, is that what you're really asking for that kind of are you okay kind of thing That'll all of a sudden your frustration now goes away. You've changed the frame completely. Absolutely Because the frame they wanted was aggression. Maybe that's the language or the frame that they know as the way to solve problems But yours was like in that scenario changed to curiosity, which was like what how did that? Yeah And anytime you actually have a mindset of instead of having something Well Don't have something to prove how something to learn and so in that moment you could have easily tried to prove something of Who do you think you're talking to? Do you know what I you could have played that car and said you actually got Curious of what's going on here? Are you asking me for Questions are powerful that way questions are disarming for somebody who's trying to be aggressive With you because they're not looking for that type of Mirror they don't want a mirror. They don't want to see The ugly that they're putting out there, but anytime somebody has that very aggressive. I have so many people who go Somebody said this to me and was so ugly and say this horrible thing and they're looking for a quick comeback which I can give it to them But if they really care about the relationship, I say okay I assume they said it at normal volume. What's their need like what are they really really feeling? Because if you just respond to the reaction You're you're not gonna hear the end of it and we will have triggers same. I definitely have mine. I can't I can't say anything I'll tell you one of the biggest things that has helped me too and Any any if anybody's wanting to improve their personal relationships with a partner or anything It's one is understanding validate first frustration comes luck next if I respond first with frustration I'm going to lose every time so it's validating it's saying of course you feel this way I totally make sense. I can see how you feel that way acknowledging that it's okay for them to feel that way otherwise The partner is going to feel like I'm being too much And if I'm being too much then you're going to leave right? It's the it's the same sense of abandonment So if I can hit that you're not being too much. I have the capacity in the I can be elastic in this relationship because I'm not going to be my best self all the time too But if I can give you a safe space for you to be messy and me to be messy Then you're actually going to have that relationship number two. It's understanding that Resets is your Uno wild card asking for a reset for if I were to say you know what I didn't say that right You know what can I can I try that again? I didn't say that the best way did I You know I could have done that better As soon as I start and ask for a reset I've never had anybody told me no nobody goes no no you have to stick with it right now go ahead Keep failing like we in a video game we wouldn't why would you keep playing if you know you're ultimately going to lose It's you restart you try again and so Given yourself the grace and the other person the grace to have the ability to start over again is a necessary part of Communicating in relationships and three is slice it thinner a lot of the times if we're having a big conversation We bring out somebody about bring up the past that past thing and we just kind of added on and clammet on when We start to kind of feel hopeless about it But if I can slice each issue by itself and say I do want to talk about this I want to address what's in front of us first That makes everything go a whole lot better But if I can slice each part and see the need and validate that I've always seen that go better and on that first point about How you engage with your partner during conflict one of the most useful things I had recently was a clip actually sort of brine brown Talking about when she comes home after like a long day. Yeah She will tell her partner how much she has in the tank. It's so good And so she'll turn to her partner and say listen I've got 10% I can't do this today. Right and I remember getting the clip and sending it to my partner because It's those that's some of the vocabulary that probably would have really helped a lot of my relationships Which is just first expressing where I'm operating from so good And I don't think anybody is going to be on the receiving end of honestly I've got like 10% in the tank today and go nope I want to do this now Exactly well using percentages in conversations incredibly hopeful both in relationships like brine mentioned of saying you know I got 10% you have 40% let's put it together We're gonna make it work but I at least know where you're coming from same thing at work Right, I've seen what I encourage is when people aren't a meeting and they kind of put out an idea All right, rather than going what if Because what happens is everybody just starts to kill it, you know, they start Point arrows at it because it's because it wasn't their idea So we need to take it down But if they come at it and say look I got 30% of an idea Then what happens magically is that everybody else wants to join in So if I were to say look I see if I got 20% of an idea I need your help with the other 80 all of a sudden you take it as a Oh me I can I can do that and then everybody else starts to build it up Rather than trying to tear down or even if in conversation if I say look I know I'm not gonna have the right words. I'm gonna have about 60% of it Like that at least of me confirming that I know what I'm saying is not gonna always be the right thing to say I wish I did that more this is um, I believe this is the clip I'm talking about Yeah, it was Tim Ferriss Everyone says marriage should be 50-50 It's the biggest crock of bull should I've ever heard it's never 50-50 Yeah, ever And so what we do is we quantify where we are so if Steve comes home and he'll be like I got 20 Just in terms of energy just energy investment kindness patience I'm out of 20 and I'll be like I'll cover you. I got your brother like I'll pull the 80 Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot my mom has been sick and I'll say I've got 10 and Steve Like two days ago said unriding a solid 25 So we know that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than a hundred combined And figure out a plan of kindness toward each other Love that yeah because the thing is marriage is not something that's 50-50 a partnership works when you can carry their 20 Are they can carry your 20 And that when you both just have 20 you have a plan where you don't hurt each other So good that's the mistake I've made multiple times. Oh, it's a try and solve big problems with 10 some mistake We make every day. Yeah, I mean for me and was here and I Is usually if we're in a part of an argument? Typically arguments in pretty quickly, but the ones that go long It's Sometimes, you know, I just don't feel like it. You know, I could give an apology you could give an apology So I just don't feel I don't feel like being sorry right now. I will later but in the moment I'm just I just got this stuff in me and I'm not ready yet And so what happens for me and what's been so helpful is when I'm aggravated at that edge and I don't want to give a thing is to say My batteries in the red like we say in the red because of you know, I phone is like I'm once I know I'm in that place We know to time out because it's or else you'd be two hours in and you're still now you've just said Wait, worse things, you know, that you're going to apologize for and so often when the quicker you can get to a timeout like if you want to know How well a relationship communicates Look how often they take timeouts because timeouts are I mean they're The amount of value get and just Apause and then even five minutes Coming back to it you have a different like okay here we go like a fresh fresh start like why would you leave somebody on the field For three hours and never give them a rest and you think I can't I we'd do it physically. I'm not going to do it mentally like if you if you want to know The key to the relationship The metric that is the most valuable key to a relationship is that the measure The quality of the conversation is equal to the quality of the relationship said differently The quality of the relationship is equal to the quality of the communication You'd look at all these couples that are divorcing Okay, are the couples that are in bad states It's It's because they were okay and the positive But they don't know how to do deal with the negative so it's it's the measure of not just can we talk about the happy stuff The if you talk I talk to these elderly couples have been married for 50 years and I say what's what's your secret? It's it's not can you be happy and the happy? It's can you how long can you sit with the hard? You know how long can you be in the in the sad times because those are gonna happen and I see that so many with the people so many people who communicate with me or message or And they're going through divorce or they have been divorced and You realize it It's it's not often that they fill out a love They fill out a communication They they stop talking to each other This is I think one of the great myths we're sold when we get into our first relationship is we think that the sign of a good relationship is a lack of conflict But if you've ever been in a long relationship, I think over time you start to figure that It's not the amount of conflict. It's like It's it's how one manages the conflict. I read a quote which I've never forgotten which said you can predict the long-term health of a relationship By whether each cut heals to 101% or 99% I does your conflict make you stronger. Yeah, and if I look back through the conflict that I've had with like my partner that I've been with a long time now I go it has actually Deepened the roots. Yeah, it has to like it's been productive conflict. Mm-hmm. You know, which has made us stronger And that and that in part is because of many of the things that you talk about which is like Trying not to win every argument. Right. And those are things in your book. Yeah. Well, that's seer. I That's what seer talks about it either way. It's good like it's the conflict you want conflict in your relationship for the growth It is rare that you can have individual growth alone It has to be relational It has to be with other people. I can read a book on how to do something but until I do it It's it's a totally different game. So I I Learned relationally with things and with other people in places, but for sure relationship I mean, there's just no there's no other way to go around it. You have to have the conflict if you want to be If you want to be better and I've seen so many times where the people They Face in their hands. They don't know how to talk to one another Because they gave up on trying to repair but they're they're all in on trying to blame and so when you are trying to Kind of undo what has to be done that makes it all the more difficult because it's just so many years where there could have been repair but there There hasn't been and then turn that really hurts the relationship I read a recent study that The biggest predictor of the child's well-being within the parental relationship It's not whether they were married or divorced. It was How they deal with conflict I mean because how many people have had parents that are still together but fight terribly. Yeah And in fact should probably maybe not be together. Yeah or those that They're divorced but communicate great. Yeah, and they never put their child in the middle of it And didn't use the child as a male carrier between the two to be able to do that is I mean you get to change the whole trajectory of a child's life Some point we have to forgive our parents right? Yeah, that's that's the truth Like you said like they were they were kids too raised by parents that this is their first time still doing it You have a workbook on its way in March 10th Called the next conversation workbook. Yeah Practical exercises arguing less and talking more which really takes everything that you wrote about and turns it into An actionable blueprint framework for people that really want to embed these habits into their lives Um, I'm gonna link that below is that available for preorder. Will it be yeah, it will be a preorder link So we'll put that in the description below you're also working in some AI stuff which I think is interesting. Yeah, thank you So I'm about to release an AI of just my content. So it has my book. It has my podcast. It has my you any of my social clips of it has it all And so it's a small language model to where it's everybody can have their own personal communication expert And 24 or seven kind of things is what they have on it But where people get the practice. So what I love about it the most is Let's say you you say I'm about to go into a port and meeting and I want to sound really confident What can I do or I'm about to have a my spouse isn't listening or really upset what I do You apply those right in that in that moment and gives you a different way of respecting the different way of seeing things from a different view or What I definitely what I've uh Like is to tell it to be a boss be my boss who's really mean and arrogant and let's do an exercise of how to respond to this situation and You test is that response can be the best response and allow it to kind of have a A different way of practicing things that maybe you need to be ready for because some people need to be ready for the hard response I'll link that below too. Yeah You can have a play with that and sign up. I'm excited We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next question left for you is who are you most dying to meet and why Oh, that's a great one Um Person I would love to meet right now Is probably Brunei Brown that's probably really the fact that you brought her up the reason why is because I know that she's been in the space a long time And I feel that When she shares stuff It's very genuine like there's no guessing that she's real. Yeah, she's about as real and raw as authentic as you can get She's also a long corn Texas long corn fan which I'm a fan of but I feel like when this is just me personally I kind of got pushed into this field and You you always look for people that are your own anchors in life of who you'd want to be a mentor Kind of thing and that's somebody who's I feel like has Been in the the world and in no sun things and has just some credible knowledge that's helped a lot of people She's most certainly authentic. She's yeah incredible. Yeah. Well, I listen if people haven't bought your book Which is almost nobody but if there are still some people out there that haven't bought this book. I highly recommend it I think I am included it in my W.H. Smith collection as well in the UK Thank you. Sure. Such a smash hit success It's a success on two dimensions. It's sales and its impact. Thank you and It's also incredibly accessible So it's not like a complicated science book and it's written for normal people that are going through very real relatable normal problems And um, I think that's why it's been so successful I think you you approach these challenges from a very real place and maybe that's in part why it's been So wonderfully received and so relatable is because You know, you're a trial attorney that's bringing this stuff to the masses But you're not like a PhD scholar who might have thrown up the drawbridge because they they they spent all their life in academia And I think the way that you communicate is so relatable and resonant that it's no wonder that you've been on an absolute Unbelievable terror of the last couple years. It's phenomenal like they're crazy crazy incredible So congratulations, and thank you for all the people that you've given thanks man a little bit of like to a little bit of um You've empowered them with information so that they can live the life that they um they deserve to live That's a special thing japson. I appreciate that. Thank you, Stuart If there's anything we need it is connection Especially in the world we're living in today And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards because on this show when I sit here with my guest and have those deep Intimate conversations this remarkable thing happens time and time again We feel deeply connected to each other at the end of every episode the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest And we've turned them into these Conversation cards and we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards This is the brand new addition and for the first time ever I've added to the pack this gold card Which is an exclusive question from me, but I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone head to the link in the description below Bye If you work in university maintenance Granger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off and Granger is your trusted partner offering the products you need all in one place from HVAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more and all Delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win Call 1-800-Granjer visit Granger.com or just up by Granger for the ones who get it done