We completed what people didn't think could get done, which was a billion dollar pipeline moving gas out of Pennsylvania into New Jersey. Project Got Built, it was a great feat by the permitting teams to work with the states, work with local landowners, work with school boards that were going to benefit from the ad dorm tax, work with the unions to have them bringing their voice to the table. So really great grassroots effort to get that project permit. It got permitting, it was up and running, it was running at near full load during the middle of the winter and a federal court came out and vacated the certificate and said you can no longer operate because the certificate was not issued correctly by FERC because FERC did not look at the greenhouse gas flow. There is not a law about greenhouse gas. Americans are capable of achieving extraordinary things when they have the freedom and opportunity to do so. This is American Potential. Hey everyone, welcome to the American Potential Podcast. I'm your host David Fromm. Summer's upon us, which means summer travel time. Engineer Matt, besides the travel that the podcast has planned, do you have any plans to drive anywhere this summer? Oh, I don't have any specific plans just yet, but I have a friend who lives in Arizona and I usually make it a point to get out to Arizona a couple times a year, so I'm thinking about road tripping it. But I'll say the podcast keeps me traveling enough that sometimes I'm like, you know what, I think I'm just going to stay home for a little bit. Well, I also know you're a driver. I mean, you're in Southern Colorado and, you know, I know when we went to Montana, you drove up there. I guess I can't blame a guy for wanting to drive in that part of the country because it's pretty gorgeous. Megan, so I like a good drive myself. I don't mind driving a number of hours because it just seems to be a nice time to send yourself and kind of see this beautiful country. It is such a great thing. I love a good road trip and getting out, seeing how much of the country there is to see. That's one of the things. We stay usually within a few miles of our homes, our work, our offices, wherever. But getting out and seeing the country and seeing it by road is one of my favorite things. Yeah. I hope as time goes on, I'm going to someday I'll get in a rented RV or something and drive out West and but I've been blessed to be able to get to a lot of beautiful areas in this country and there are so, so many. So now I want to share with my kids and make sure we see that and make that part of our summer plans. Got to love it. The family road trip. You can't beat it. You know, energy plays a big role in our summer plans. You know, are you hoping to get on a plane to get where you want to go or loading up the car for a road trip? And when it comes to keeping your house cool during the hot summer months, where are you setting your thermostat at? So what if Washington could make energy production less expensive simply by getting some of the roadblocks out of the way? We'll talk about that with today's guest who spent about 40 years working in the energy industry. He's the newest U.S. Senator replacing Mark Wayne Mullen after he was named the new Secretary of Homeland Security. I want to welcome to the podcast, Oklahoma U.S. Senator Alan Armstrong. Senator, welcome. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, David. Glad to be here. Great. Well, you, I mean, you're, you're, you just started. How's it been? Do you figure out where everything is? How are you enjoying your time? Good. You know, it's been a lot of learning and, but I love learning and it's a new challenge. And you know, I've been in the CEO role for about almost, and chairman role for about 15 years. And so this was a big change, but one that I've really found fascinating and challenging and like I said, get to learn something new every day. So it's been good. Been, gosh, nine, almost 10 weeks now. So it feels like it's been a long time at this point. I don't know. Yeah. I imagine it seems like a long time, but then time flies too. I can tell you. Wow. The, um, I know as an organization, as Americans for prosperity, we're pretty thrilled to have someone with your expertise and experience in the Senate. I mean, it's such an energy production, such an important issue, especially right now. And your experience is so crucial. So I'm excited for this conversation and for the work that you're going to be able to do while you're there in the Senate. But I kind of wanted to go back to just the start of your career. I mean, you're trained as an engineer. Um, you know, why'd you want to be an engineer and, uh, you know, what got you started in the energy industry in the first place? Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it was a bit natural to me. I always really liked solving problems. I actually had two uncles that were engineers and I got to see a lot of the interesting work that they got to do. My, uh, granddad was a chemist for Phillips, Trolium at the time. So it was kind of around the energy industry, uh, growing up to a certain degree anyway, but it was fascinating to me to see really large scale construction and, um, see what, uh, humans, when they worked together, what they were capable of accomplishing on a large scale. And so that was really interesting to me from, from the day one. But I think, you know, learning the engineering really is a matter of teaching people to break down problems, taking very large problems, breaking them into smaller ones that can be achieved, uh, with groups of people. And so that, that was really interesting to me and continues to fascinate me. And I love a good challenge. And frankly, that's why this job has been so exciting to me as I do see it as a brand new challenge. Well, I guess as a observer of the U S Senate and of Congress in general, I'd say that we need more people who have that mindset holding seats in Congress. Um, so what do you, what would you, you know, you, you rose over the 40 years. We're chairman, CEO of the Williams company. Well, first of all, tell us what the Williams companies does. And then, you know, what, what would you say made you successful and then allowed you to move to the highest levels of the company? Yeah. Thanks. Well, the Williams companies is a large scale energy infrastructure operator and handles about a third of the nation's natural gas through its pipeline systems and plants. So it, what it does is basically picks up gas supplies in producing areas and moves that through long haul transmission lines that go all the way across the United States and delivers it into the key market centers. And so it delivers it to your utility. So if you're a customer of Duke or, or Con Ed, if you're in New York, Williams probably carried that natural gas from a producing area to those utilities and then the utilities then distribute that to the home. So that's, that's basically what Williams does in a nutshell today. It's gotten into providing more and more for the power for the, the AI movement and a lot of the gas fire generation for that. So it's really taken off with really a lot of wind in itself with the AI movement right now. Well, so you, as you moved up in the company, I'm sure you've seen the effect that regulation has in a heavily regulated industry. You know, what, as you started to observe that, you know, what was your impression of regulations and the effect on the industry? Yeah, you know, I would say it moved from when I was a project manager for the company, I was in the business of having to overcome those obstacles and figure a creative way to move through the regulatory process to get things done. But one of the things I noted about that was your job as a project manager was to just take on that barrier, figure out the quickest way to get around it and to deal with it and solve the problem and move on. It wasn't to say, okay, well, how do we make sure next time the regulation is a little more fitting to it? Said another way, your job was just to play whack-a-mole. It wasn't to try to fix the process. And that's part of the problem, frankly, with the way our regulatory process works today is you've got project managers there that their job is to get that project built as soon as they can. They don't have time to wrestle with the regulator to say, you know, really, this makes no sense at all. But because you're usually just saying, okay, fine, we'll do it anyway. And moving on so that you can expedite the project. The regulator themselves doesn't feel like they're doing their job if they don't come up with some new requirement every time a new project is built. How boring would it be to say, hey, we have a really good set of standards that we've been using as long as you comply with these standards. We'll give you the permit and you can move on. It's not what regulators do. That's a great point. Yeah, clear navigator to do. And if the project manager is not going to push back on that and he's just going to say, yeah, thank you, sir, can have another, then that's kind of the way the permitting process is built up. And then on top of that, you have the NGOs and the environmental opposition that frankly makes money by fights and trying to stir trouble up on a project. And that's how they raise their money, frankly, is my villainizing the corporation. And so there's not really very many people in that process on the ground floor that are actually saying, hey, how do we actually make this better for our country? How do we actually streamline this process so that we can get the work done? Because the project manager that actually knows how to do that doesn't have time to deal with that. They're just trying to clear the next hurdle and get onto it. And they're not trying to improve our processes. Not because they're bad people. They just literally don't have time to deal with it. And there's a lot of times where today there's so many regulators, both state and federal, that are duplicative. There's a lot of times when there's mutually exclusive requirements. So a state regulator will say, you have to install your soil erosion control on this project this way if you want the permit for me. And the feds will say, no, no, no, no, you have to do it my way. Sometimes those ways are actually mutually exclusive. And so if you're the project manager, you're sitting there saying, would somebody just pick? I don't really care which way we do it. I just need to have certainty. The regulators will just kind of cross their arms and say, it's not my problem. You either do it my way or you're not getting the permit. And both of those are required to move the project ahead. So those are the kind of things that have really made the world of getting big, large-scale infrastructure built these days really difficult. Yeah. I guess I don't know how you would de-conflict that other than the project doesn't move forward. I mean, that's terrible. I didn't. Yeah. I've had a lot of time saying, okay, let me please come into the field and let me show you why we can't do both of these. And we're not trying to cut corners here. We just literally can't do it both ways. And so you'll actually go out to projects these days and you'll see two completely different erosion control setups on the project and the amount of plastic that gets consumed and thrown away on that. If people really looked at that and thought, wow, if I was really trying to protect the environment, would I really consume all this plastic and produce all this plastic for two different erosion control systems? So those are the kind of things that if you're a project manager or you're in the business, like I've been of watching this, it is super frustrating because we're not protecting the environment any better. We're simply just making it longer and slower to get projects done. And these big operators these days, they are not trying to cut corners. I would tell you that is that idea hasn't hit people's heads in a long time. They are literally just trying to get it done and get it done in the most environmentally responsive way. But a lot of times there's actually a lot of things that prevent that from happening, as I was mentioning. So in your experiences running an energy producer, but then now in the US Senate, is there any particular regulations that you think are most onerous or like a regimen that's really holding us back the most? Yeah, thanks for the question, David. The single most weaponized tool out there to stop a project these days, surprisingly, is the 401 water quality certificate that is issued by states. And most of these big long-haul interstate projects are going across multiple states. Sometimes there's a lot of benefit in that particular state for the project and sometimes there's not. But it's still interstate commerce that's required. To the degree it's not, sometimes you'll see it become a political football and the state has effectively the right to veto a project under what is called the 401 water quality certificate. Even though that is completely duplicative to the Army Corps of Engineers 404 permit. So back when the Clean Water Act was written, the language was written in a way to say, well, the states have at least have a right to raise their concerns. And that right to raise their concerns has over time turned into veto rights for a project. And so if you go and look at all the major big linear energy infrastructure projects that have been stopped, it has been stopped by the 401 water quality certificate. And so, boy, is this nerdy. You know, I mean, imagine trying to get people to understand that. But if you don't fix that problem, and believe me, I could go a lot deeper on this. But if you don't fix that problem, you're going to continue to have a country that finds very difficult to build interstate infrastructure across our nation to move energy from where it's abundant and available, the areas where it's constrained. And so today you have places like New England that sit 120 miles away from some of the lowest price natural gas in the entire world, not in the country, but in the entire world. And yet during the wintertime, it pays some of the very highest prices in the world for natural gas because 120 mile pipeline across the state of New York can't be built because New York doesn't see a whole lot of benefit into that for them. Wow, that's a great point. Well, let's look at some of the legislation that is percolating at the federal level, first being the speed act. What would the speed act do and what issue would it help address? Yeah, great work by the House, by the way. The House has been delivering bill after bill that make a lot of sense. Bruce Westerman from Arkansas has done a fantastic job. Congressman Guthrie from Kentucky. A lot of really good work that's gone on over there. And the speed act really dealt with a lot of the judicial reform issues as well, which when you say judicial reform, you lose a lot of people there as well. What you're really talking about is not having a bunch of litigation almost built into the process. And people say, well, it's those big bureaucratic federal agencies that are the problem that really cause all this bureaucratic red tape. And that's actually not the case. The agencies actually work pretty hard, particularly agencies like the FERC actually work pretty hard to try to streamline these processes. The problem is because the judicial reform in there lets anybody and everybody file a suit and stop a project. That gives a lot of leverage to the judicial process. And so putting some judicial reform that puts limits on who can actually file suit and what the remedy is for those suits. So that's a really important issue that needs to be taken on. And as well, that bill as well has some timelines in it. I would tell you that timelines work sometimes, but they are not a cure-all. And the reason that a lot of people that haven't been in the process of actually getting this stuff built don't know is that if you have a shot clock, for instance, that says that an agency has to give you an answer within six months, let's say. That almost always starts when you have a notice of complete application. So in other words, an agency that doesn't want that to happen or feels like they're getting squeezed on time, they just never start the clock. They never give you a notice of complete application. They keep coming up with, well, we want this iDot or this dCross. And so you just never really start the clock. So it has its limitations. People are very well intended putting those kind of requirements in there. But if you don't have something that independently starts the clock, that causes the problem within those bills. And that's a good example of that. So anyway, really good effort, really deals with a lot of the judicial reform issues that need to be dealt with. And I think if we could get language like that passed as part of a larger bill in the Senate, we would be knocking out quite a bit. It's interesting to me, you have particular insight to the process coming from having run a company that's being heavily regulated. What do you see as the biggest, maybe disconnect or blind spot for either senators or regulators with regard that you can expose and help people make better policy because you've been the guy on the other side who's trying to get a project done? Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And one of the things that dawns on me being in the Senate is the huge breadth of issues that a senator has coming at them on a regular basis. And and just just like in a conversation like this, I'm constantly thinking, oh, man, I'm going too deep on this. I mean, this is I'm getting nerdy on giving this explanation. You have that issue in, you know, in great depth around here where people like to the degree it really takes hard digging in work, really understanding the details. That's not what this body is all that good at, frankly. They are in spots. I mean, there's some incredible experts in all different fields. And that's, you know, great to see. But getting a whole body to understand that, hey, don't just pass a permitting bill and say, patch yourself on the back. Say you got it done. You have to get these details right. This thing has been this beast has been growing for a long, long time. And to really take it on effectively, we can't just put some patches on it. And so that that I think is the thing that people tend to lean to is just say, just get a bill done to say we got a bill done. Because if you think about something like permitting, who's going to know in in the next two or three years, if that was done right or not? You know, it's such a slow, long term process that it takes a long. It's not going to change gasoline prices tomorrow. So it's not a hot political issue because it's not going to be a snap your finger and immediate gratification kind of an issue. It's a very long term issue that needs to be dealt with. And so I think that's one of the things that I've learned here is that, you know, having the having the detailed knowledge is great, but you really have to be able to give people examples and compelling examples around how things are not getting done to actually get their attention on. I'll tell you, one thing that's really been helpful is that the cabinet, in particularly Secretary Wright and Secretary Bergham, have been involved in trying to get some of these projects permitted. And they've seen front and center how they actually get stopped. They've seen the 401 water quality certificate get abused. And so they it's nice. I mean, that's a really good thing when you've been able to drag them alongside some of these permitting battles. And they've kind of seen firsthand. And as a result of that, they're telling Congress, hey, if you don't fix this part of the problem, don't bother bringing it. So so I think that's really good that they've, you know, engaged in their staffs have engaged so heavily in some of the permitting process. Yeah, I imagine having some I mentioned, they're happy to have your expertise on board as well. So the second piece of federal legislation is the permit act. What would this do? Yeah, the permit act is does take a pretty good swipe at the 401 water quality certificate in attempts to address that. I think there's some, you know, more specific things than them, but it really does try to tackle that. I think it's a, you know, a nice piece of legislation and a really solid effort to get at that. So so that's one of the key issues that permit does. And as well as it also takes on some of the no vacature language as well, saying that and this really relates somewhat to certainty. So I'll give you a great example. This was this is a fascinating example. But when William was built about three years ago now, I guess, we completed what people didn't think could get done, which was a billion dollar pipeline moving gas out of Pennsylvania into New Jersey. Project got built. It was, you know, a great feat by the permitting teams to work with the states, work with local landowners, work with school boards that were going to benefit from the Advalorum tax, work with the unions to have them bringing their voice to the table. So really great grassroots effort to get that project permitted. It got permitted. It was up and running. It was running at near full load during the middle of the winter. And a federal court came out and vacated the certificate and said, you can no longer operate because the certificate was was not issued correctly by Fert, because Fert did not look at the greenhouse gas rule. Well, there is not a law about green hat. They were saying that the study wasn't done adequately to show what the indirect impact of greenhouse gas emissions was associated with the project. Even though there wasn't a law requiring that, but but a very politicized issue. The we were explaining to people, listen, like, you really need to before somebody pulls this trigger, there are going to be people freezing to death. Like this pipeline is at full load and it's not making, you know, ice cream. It's like keeping people's homes warm and and you better better know what you're doing here. Thank goodness, the first step in and issued an emergency order and allowed the pipeline to continue to operate. But then think of yourself as the CEO of that company going and telling your board, hey, guess what? We just spent a billion dollars. And it may be even though it's contracted for 20 years, it may be all for not because we may not be able to operate this any longer because nothing we did wrong, but because of our permitting process. And so that's the kind of so the the permit Bill actually was taking a swipe at that issue. And it has no vacature language in it, saying that a court doesn't have the right to vacate a certificate that's been lawfully issued by an agency. That's an incredible story. Well, Sarah, I kind of want to ask you as we as you wrap up. When did it occur to you that you might like to be a senator or actually just wanted to be involved in like the public policy process? I mean, it's pretty different from what you're doing. A lot of people would have thought you might want to just, you know, retire, go live a good life and look back on a very successful career. Why did you kind of jump into this? You know, honestly, I've, you know, I've been blessed in ways I never dreamed of. You know, when I was growing up on a ranch in Oklahoma and and I really wouldn't want to sit around and gripe about what other people aren't doing and knowing, knowing that this is a huge problem for our country. Like if we can't, if we can't learn to build out the infrastructure that it takes to power our world and grow it, we will get run over the top of eventually. It's just a matter of time that that happens. And so to sit back and not use the knowledge I have and the passion I have around this for the benefit of our country, frankly, just felt very, very selfish. And the governor of Oklahoma, who's been really, I think, a very principled leader asked me to do it. And he's a hard guy given what he's, you know, sacrificed on his part. For the benefit of kind of a hard person to tell, no, I'm just going to be selfish and go improve my golf handicap. So, so I, you know, I think it's not much more complicated than that. I will be, I keep telling people, please don't make me be a grumpy old man if we can't get this done and done effectively because I'll be very disappointed if I do spend this time and we don't get something effective done. But good news is I've got such a great team around me that is like the reason they're doing this is they know how dedicated we all are as a team to getting this done. And they've kind of got, we've kind of almost have a singular mission around this. And so it's kind of nice to have such clear focus and such great expertise around me as a team. And that, that's really making a difference, frankly, is just being able to be so singularly focused on this issue. You know, AFP has been going around the country talking about permitting reform, you know, highlighting different sites and projects that either stopped because of the government permitting process or, you know, are in danger of closing. And it's so many different resources. So it just seems to me so commonsensical that we want to unleash this ingenuity and the resources that are available. And there's so many private entities that want to do it. And the benefit is so clear to all of us, but maybe it's not commonsensical to everyone. And that's why we're happy you're there in the Senate. Yeah. Well, thank you. I do think that both sides of the aisle have seen enough that they understand that we really do need to get something done. And I think, you know, part of my role here is educating people on the particulars of what what we think will work and, you know, what what won't work. And so, and I would just say, I'm pretty encouraged. I have a really strong team around me that is equally motivated on this issue. Some people that have spent a lot of time trying to fix this. And so I'm really, you know, thankful to have such a dedicated and strong team on the topic. And we have the benefit of being just very narrowly focused on this issue. No campaign to run, no political ambitions beyond this. And so, frankly, it's pretty liberating to have the luxury of being focused on this singular issue. And and I'm remain hopeful that we can make a difference. Well, I'm super. We are super hopeful that you'll make a great difference here. I'm so appreciative for your service and the experience that you're bringing to the U.S. Senate. And I wish you the best of luck. And hopefully we'll get some great results. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, David. Appreciate it. Senator. Well, folks, if you like this episode and would like to stay connected with the podcast, be sure to like our channel as well as following us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. And always remember, liberty and freedom are easily taken for granted. Don't take it for granted. Go out there and defend freedom already. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next episode.
