Talking Dateline: The Gorge

This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Quote now at Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, National Average 12 Month Savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One NA member FDIC. Hi everyone, it's Blaine Alexander and today we are talking Dateline. I am joined by Andrea Canning to discuss her episode, The Gorge. Hey Andrea. Hey Blaine. Okay, if you haven't seen this episode, you can watch it on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then of course come right back here. Later we'll have an extra clip from Andrea's interview with private investigator Andrew Waters about the rental car Harold and Alice drove that fateful day in the Taroko National Park. And then later we will answer some of your questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Before we get into our conversation, just give us a quick recap about what this episode entails. Yeah, so this episode is, you know, every family's worst nightmare where a text comes in saying, do you know where Alice is to Grace, the sister, she's missed two tutoring sessions with my child. And, you know, Grace had no idea that Alice was missing. Wow. Once they start looking for Alice, they, first of all, she's moved out of her apartment. Then they found a new apartment. There's a sign on the door. Welcome home. I love you. Well, who's this, who wrote this sign? Then they find out that she's secretly gotten married to an older man who's this genius who holds all these patents in Silicon Valley. And then they find out that they had gone on a business trip to Taiwan. Her husband, Harold, had come home, but Alice had not. And that began the search for Alice. Where was she? And of course, the more they looked, the more they realized she was probably no longer living. And the FBI was not able to formally really investigate Harold and arrest him, you know, on suspicion of murder. There's a warrant out for his arrest in Taiwan. They want to bring him in to question him more. But because this happened in Taiwan, there's no extradition with the United States. The family went after Harold in a civil court and they won. The jury found him liable for the death of Alice. He has not been criminally charged. I think before we jump into this episode, I have to say that you had me from the very first shot. I was like, this is gorgeous. What is this scenery? Where are we? I mean, I was pulled in immediately. I think it has to win the award for like best, most picturesque, Dateline shoot location. Yeah. I mean, I've been on some pretty cool locations for Dateline. You know, I was in Zambia, Virgin Islands, which are amazing places as well. But this was really something special. I mean, I felt like I was in a movie. And at one point, you know, we drove two hours up the mountain in that park. And we still weren't even at the very top. It was incredible. And just how the landscape changed, you know, from the time you got in until, you know, two hours up. It was a different temperature. It was freezing. It was, I felt like I was in the enchanted forest. So yeah, I mean, the marble, the marble cliffs and the gorge and the river, you know, running, I think there were two rivers running through it. The vegetation, the cloud, we were in the clouds, you know, at the top. So for me, and I'd never been to Asia before. So to go not only to Asia, but then to go to Taroko Park was really spectacular. And I understand, like you said, this was your first trip to Asia. You had some interesting occurrences, especially on the last night. Tell me about that. Oh my gosh, yes. So we were all out to dinner and we had the crew. It was, you know, because it was our last night altogether. And we're sitting there and all of a sudden the table starts shaking like crazy glasses, you know, moving plates. And it takes you a second to register what's even happening because you're so not used to it. It was an earthquake. Oh my gosh. And it ended up being a 5.7 on the magnitude earthquake, you know, on the Richter scale. That's kind of significant. I mean, yeah. And what was really interesting was the park, Taroko Park, had had an earthquake a couple of years earlier. So everywhere we went in the park, there were workers, whether, you know, still where they were fixing roads, all kinds of bridges were closed. Wow. Trails were closed. It really did a lot of damage, this earthquake in the park. Yeah. But what was really kind of amazing was we had gone to a monastery in the park, which was beautiful. It had a giant, you know, gold Buddha outside and the monastery, which is right in the middle and on this really steep hill or mountain was untouched by the earthquake. Wow. That's a beautiful story. Wow. You know, it's so interesting. I think just as you were rattling off the places that Dateland has sent you for different stories, people always ask us in our jobs, like, oh, do you get to go to amazing places? And sometimes, no, not really, to be honest. But a lot of times you do. You know, I think that my first trip to Asia was actually on assignment before I joined Dateline, but covering news in Singapore. Oh, nice. The Trump-Kim summit in 2017, right? And so that was my first time going to Asia and I went to cover news. And it's always such an honor and kind of a privilege when you get to see different parts of the world that you otherwise wouldn't go through this job. Right. And, you know, going on safari, you know, to Zambia, I mean, that was a dream to see something like that. I mean, the only sad thing is the reasons that for Dateline specific, you know, the reasons we go to these places are not happy reasons. You know, it's usually a mystery. There's, you know, been a murder, which, you know, casts sort of a bit of a shadow on it. But at the same time, you can't help but take in the beauty. Absolutely. This was such a fascinating episode for so many reasons. I think, you know, we often talk about this, Andrea, in our Dateline stories, every now and then there's just one factor, one person, one something that kind of makes the difference in maybe a crime never being reported or something not happening and then ultimately getting justice or something actually moving. And in this episode, I think it was the family's determination. I was just so really, really touched by her family and how doggedly they pursued this question of where did she go? Where is our sister? Yeah, and it was like one clue kept leading them to another. And, you know, the Koo family, they're lucky, right? They have resources, they have money, they have good jobs, they were able to hire a private investigator, you know, they were doing everything that they possibly could. So this was a family that really fired up the, you know, the family machine where they were like, you know, we need to get to the bottom of this. And they hadn't really been very much in contact with Alice, you know, of late. I mean, text messages, the occasional lunch, but they didn't really know, like, what was going on in her life. And so I think, I think there was probably some guilt there that, you know, they hadn't been, you know, as maybe close touches they had wanted. You know, I got that sense. It's so interesting how, right, like life always moves and moves in different directions. And you think that you're, oh, gosh, I'm keeping in touch with this person, but you can look up and say, gosh, some time has gone by since I've spoken to them. So I just felt for them. Yeah, I agree with you. And, you know, every family is different, right? And they have six siblings. That's a lot. But, you know, I think people have this idea that every family has to be in constant contact and having Sunday dinners. And, you know, it's just, that's not reality for everybody, right? I mean, I recently, my cousin, who's my mom's twin's daughter, we were very close growing up. Say that again, your cousin. So my mom's twin, her daughter, so my cousin. Okay, got it. She, it was, we were very close growing up. And we're still close. Like, I love her and all of that. And all of a sudden I realized, you know, no one's heard from her, you know, and I was, and I was, you know, texting around family members. Has anyone heard from her? They hadn't heard from her. And so I, you know, I work for Dateline. Like, the panic machine started to set in a little bit. Your mind starts going, of course. Why is she not responding to her cell phone, to her email, to her WhatsApp? So eventually she got in touch. But it was, it was interesting though, because that's all happening as I'm doing this story. And I'm like, you know, this can happen, right? Where, where you lose touch or you don't talk as much. Even though you care about that person. I want to talk about Alice's sisters, Josephine and Grace. I mean, they really were kind of like the heart and soul of the story. I loved your interviews with them. They were just so, so caring, so genuine. They just were nice, sweet people and, and yeah, really, just really connected with them. I could see that. I wonder if you could just kind of tell us more about your interviews with them. Like, any behind the scenes, just kind of what was it like sitting down across from them? Well, one thing that really sticks out with Josephine was how, and I say it in the piece, I say it in the show, she had this big picture of Alice next to her during the interview. And I say to her at some point, you know, this is the first time anyone's actually had a photo of their loved one next to them during, while I'm interviewing them. So the whole time I'm interviewing Josephine, you know, these are long interviews. Yeah. Like, you know, generally two to three hours. Yeah. She, I'm looking at Alice, like the entire time. Hmm. And, and Josephine said something like, well, yeah, like she's what it's all about. Is Alice, right? The family's journey across Taiwan, Josephine's journey, like what they saw, what they learned, what they, where they went, that was just fascinating to see. We took the train with Josephine. She, we stayed in the same hotel with her, you know, dinners with her. We went into the city at night where exactly what she did when she was putting up flyers. And she came obviously to the park with us. There was a scene where you were there and this notion of yelling out into the abyss, come home. Yeah. Alice and then saying it in Mandarin, oh, it just, I got chills. I was almost moved to tears when she started crying. Like what a powerful moment to be able to just kind of show their pain in the midst of being this dogged pursuit. I mean, they were doing all of this while waiting through some really tough emotional waters. Absolutely. And she initially told me about it in the interview in California, Josephine. And then when we got to the park together, she just started calling it out, calling her name out, just calling Alice. And it, what it does is by seeing that image, the visual, it really hits you just how helpless, right? When you look at the size of that park, how do you find the person? Like how do you find your loved ones? Yeah. In a park like that, like it's just impossible. It's the size of, I believe it was Maryland or something was the, was how big it was, if I'm getting that correct. Just how do you find the person? Despite your best efforts, despite doing everything that you possibly can. And you could feel that, I could feel that, that helplessness and just, but also the desperation of just like, ah, something, will something happen? Will something work? Yeah. And I'm going to look up just how big that park is because I probably got that wrong. I love that we can fact check this in real time. I'm fact checking in real time. The beauty of talking Dateline. Just so you know, I think, I believe it was Taiwan is more like the size of Maryland. Okay. Because the Taroko National Park, this is why we fact check everything on Dateline. So you can actually believe what we say. So yeah, it says largely mountainous protected area, roughly comparable to, in size to the Las Virgin Islands National Park or slightly smaller than Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado. Okay. Okay. So it's a very sizable national park. It's very big and it's, of course they give it in kilometers, but like 920 square kilometers. Okay. So, but they had gone really, really high where there's not like as many tourists up there. My question is, how does one get up there? Are there roads up there? Do you have to walk up there? Like, is it high? Oh yeah. You wouldn't, if you tried to walk up there, you'd, oh my gosh, you'd be exhausted. You take a car, you're going up in altitude, you're, you know, the roads are so narrow and windy, you're looking down at cliffs. I mean, it was like pretty intense. So you're like on the side, like going up these mountains and looking down and looking down like one, you know, if something happened, like, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty serious. You have a strong stomach for adventure. I, I, I, I wasn't even worth that about you. Cause I, I listened to the description like I could never, I would never, I'm scared of heights. I want, going up mountain roads, I, I'm never able to do. So I've had a couple like that, like one was in Colorado, um, that I actually had to drive and the sheriff was like, meet me up at the spot where the woman, you know, supposedly went over the cliff. Yeah. I thought it was just going to be this normal like track up there. And I was like, what am I doing? And I'm driving the producer and I'm like, oh my gosh, like these aren't real roads. And, and then like another time it was in Joshua tree national park. We drove three hours into the desert in a, this Hummer and it was white knuckle driving. Yes. And it was so bad that our producer Vince, who was following us cause I was in the Hummer with the interview subject and there wasn't enough room for everyone. So he was following us in a Jeep and the whole transmission fell out in Joshua tree. Oh my gosh. And so Vince was like, what did he do? Yeah, just stay with the Jeep and, and make that uncomfortable, uncomfortable call to Hertz saying like, Hey, I'm in the middle of the desert and the transmission has fallen out of the Jeep. So we need to get the vehicle out of here somehow. Oh my gosh. The adventures that we go on and we should say on this Taiwan, we, uh, trip, we came across some very evil monkeys, um, in Turoko that wanted our food and everyone social media. Yeah. And they kept warning us like these are dangerous monkeys. They will like bite you and they're, they're evil and they will do, they will stop at nothing to get the food. So, so we're, you can see it on my, on my Instagram. We, we were like running from them at one point and then the, um, the owner of the restaurant, it's, I call it a restaurant. It's not really a restaurant. It's just people making food in front of you, like outside. And the guy came along with a gun. Oh gosh. And we're like, he has a gun. He has a gun. He's like boom, boom, boom. And he's like firing off the gun, like for the monkeys. This has turned into wild adventures while shooting dateline stories. When we get back, Andrea does a deep dive on a critical piece of evidence, that rental car. And she shows a clip of her interview with investigator Andrew Waters. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not sure what you're saying. Here's to the little things. Meeting new people just got way more fun, because now you don't have to do it alone. With Tinder's new double date feature, you and your bestie can match together. Tap the double date icon to see profiles built for two. When two pairs match, the group chat kicks off. Scope the profiles, send memes, keep the chat fun. Hype each other up. Flirt a little. Maybe plan a hang. It's always better when you're in it together. Try the new Tinder double date. Explore all the possibilities. Tinder, it starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. Let's talk about this email. This is something that we see more and more in Dateline, where there's someone who's gone missing and then, oh, magically an email comes through that says, hey, I'm all good. I just needed some time. Whatever it looks like that makes things seem a bit more calm. The data footprint really, really cracked this case here. Like you said, it was the smoking gun, essentially. It was because with all the digital evidence combined with that email, it seemed impossible that she could have written it herself. The defense pushed back on that and they said that they've never really been shown hard proof that she couldn't have, maybe she wrote it from a cafe and it was near the hotel. It looked like it was in the hotel, but it was really near the hotel. They tried to work around that, but I definitely think that email did in the defense because it is, we have how many times have we seen that on Dateline where, and I'm not talking about Harold right now, but a killer will write text messages, write emails pretending to be the deceased person. I remember doing that as a story last year. A young woman was killed. This person was ultimately convicted, but he logged into bank accounts, made it look like she was spending money, logged into her social media, was sending, posting, making it look like her, like doing all of these very different things to make it look like when people go back and look at her digital footprint, like she was still moving through the world and her family looked and said, that's not something she would post. Thinking about that, it had to have been harder for Josephine and Grace because they hadn't been in such close contact. They didn't know how Alice related to her husband, for instance. The thing that stood out to me was that, hey, handsome Harold. I was just going to say that. That part? Yeah. I mean, I wonder, did she really talk like that? Maybe. Did she say that? Did she call him that? I don't know. Did she just throw that in himself? Like, hey, I'm handsome. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. No one would know because they didn't know the relationship. They didn't know how they talked. There was no context. Maybe she does. Maybe she does. Maybe she does. We all have cute names for our significant other, but just the throwing that out there, if that wasn't genuine, that one stood out to me like, huh, I wonder if she would have done that. Yep. Let's talk about the investigation itself, Andrea. I was really struck just in the beginning hearing from the investigator. It seemed like he had two pieces of luck that just worked on the side. One, the fact that there was a random number, 1725. That was all the company was able to give them. He gets the house on the first try of all the 1725s. It was really amazing. You go over, there's an apartment complex, and now you just have to figure out which apartment, which wasn't that hard because people knew who she was and they knew she was married. But the other piece was that he was in the parking lot and just saw somebody who looked like the doctor. He's like, hey, are you the doctor? He's like, yeah, actually I am. Yes. What are the odds? I know, right? And also, he didn't even know it was him. He just, it was an older man and he thought maybe and it was. So yeah, I mean, he was, they had a good team assembled. We kept calling them Team Alice because I think they were the ones calling it Team Alice in the interviews and it was kind of fitting, right? Because there were just so many people on the team like trying to find her and trying to figure out what happened, whether it was the time when he's investigators, whether it was the family, whether it was Todd Davis, the attorney, or Andrew, the investigator slash attorney. Sure. There was another piece of the investigation that you couldn't get into the episode about a flat tire with a rental car. I want to play an extra clip from your conversation with private investigator Andrew Waters about that. According to Harold, they had rented a car earlier in the trip and they hired a driver to drive them around to Rocco Gorge. And Harold's explanation was that the driver drove while they watched the scenery and Harold dropped the driver and Alice off at the train station at the end of the day. So yeah, there was a, you learned about more with this rental car? I can't recall which point, but Harold told us that he had gotten a flat tire with the rental car. So he had a tow company come get the car. We subpoenaed in time, we took the deposition of the tow driver and tow company and got the location of where the breakdown was, the photos of the car. We even looked at how much mud there was on the tire to see how far off road he could have gone and potentially dumped a body or other things like that. So we had like a more and more refined location for where these things all occurred. And that's the story behind the flat tire of the rental car. So all of this together, the forensic sweep, the flat tire, where did this lead investigators? What did this lead them to think? Well, the flat tire, Harold tried to use that because he said that that's how he injured his hand. Right? They think he injured his hand getting in a fight with Alice. And also why, yeah, like why was he out there? Like, I don't, just, there's so many stories from Harold. Yes. I mean, just the notion of what happened to your hand, there were so many stories. So many stories. I got in a fight with my, I was wrestling around with my cousins and then I got mad. He opened the door for this perjury charge, which is still pending. It hasn't gone to trial. There has not been a plea deal and it appears it's going to go to trial. But yeah, like all these stories that the state, the prosecutors in California were like, hey man, we can go after him for that. Right, right. Wow. I loved what you said about amnesia being one of the excuses. You're like, who says that? I mean, amnesia? Right, amnesia is like a soap, like that's, they do that on soap operas. Like, and we do know there have been cases of amnesia, but really, I don't know. In life. In this one, in this one, it seems like another stretch. Mm-hmm. Well, I thought that this one was so fascinating. I thought the ending was fascinating too, because it ended with a civil judgment. He was found liable for Alice's death, $23.6 million awarded to the family. I mean, that's the judge making a pretty strong statement right there with that amount of money. What about what's next? What could possibly happen? If he has found guilty of perjury, a felony, and because he's a Canadian citizen, he could be deported. The question is, where is he deported? If he's deported back to Canada, they also don't have an extradition treaty with Taiwan. So that means that Taiwan can't come to Canada and get herald. Is there a road where herald is deported to Costa Rica, for example? And maybe the Taiwanese police are waiting in Costa Rica? You know, I don't know. I mean, these are obviously all questions I'm sure that are being had. The FBI sat through, a couple of FBI agents sat through herald's civil trial watching. We know the Taiwanese police were involved in that deposition. They were getting real-time updates on the deposition. So there's a lot of people watching herald. I think we just have to see what happens with this perjury situation. And then does he go to prison or if he's found guilty, or does he get immediately deported with, say, time served because he was in jail for several months? I think that's just the next chapter in this. And we'll have to wait and see what, you know, it feels almost like a game of chess. Like, you know, what move is who, you know, who's going to make what move next? That's kind of what it feels like to me. There is a lot to watch. OK. Coming up next, we'll take your questions from social media. I used to love the little things. My son's laughter, the smell of rain. But then depression happened. And while my antidepressant helped, I still didn't feel like I used to. So my doctor recommended adding Rexalti, Rexpepprasol. Rexalti could provide a boost. When added to an antidepressant, Rexalti was proven to significantly reduce depression symptoms more than an antidepressant alone. Elderly people with dementia-related psychosis have increased risk of death or stroke. 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Okay, this first one comes from Casey Jones, who writes, How sad, PSA, if you're in a troubled marriage, don't go hiking with him or her. Casey is very smart. Because I've been saying that in this job is if you are concerned about your spouse or your loved one or your significant other, do not go hiking. Absolutely. I mean, there are so many things that can just go naturally wrong when you go on a hike anyway. Yeah. Sure. Okay, this one is an interesting one. This comes from Penny Harrison. Penny writes, I wish this family would try to get satellite images of the gorge where she went missing. I can use computers to scan for irregularities in those images. I heard of another missing body that was found using this method. That's very interesting. That is really interesting. I haven't heard of that. I've heard of thermal imaging, someone still alive, but I haven't heard of after, let's say the person is not alive anymore. Sure. As far as beyond just regular imaging, I haven't heard of that. But what sounds like a great tool. It does. This is an interesting question too about just closure. I wonder if Alice's family wants to keep searching for her remains, just to have that closure. I think they are never going to stop searching. I think they're going to keep going back to Taroko Park. I think that will always be there. It's a Catholic family. This is very important to them to have Alice back and to be able to have a proper funeral and certain religions. It's very, very important to get their remains back. This next comment comes from Instagram. This is an interesting one, Andrea. This comes from somebody named M O'Brien who says, very accurate episode. I was a juror on this case in the civil trial in Santa Clara County. Wow. I love this. Great. It is. I've never seen this before. M O'Brien writes, I was surprised that Alice's brother George wasn't included as he was the leader for his family in the search and trial and Grace wasn't. So included in the episode. Yeah. So even though you didn't see George in the episode, he was very involved with speaking to us, speaking to his family about the program, giving us information. And also, yes, he played a huge role in searching for Alice. He's the one who got that number from the electric company for the apartment complex. He was the one who hired the private investigator. So he was very active. I think it was just a personal choice in the end for George and his wife and their family. I think also private. And I think that was just their choice in the end that they preferred not to be on camera. But wonderful man did a lot to find his sister and what Brittany, our producer, she had many conversations with him. I love hearing that they were so active behind the scenes. And that's what we see in a lot of our episodes, right? Family who maybe don't feel like sitting down and being on national TV, but they want to help. They want to give information or pictures or whatever it is. Well, this last question, Andrea, comes from Facebook and it's about the book Grace was writing. This is from Lori Reed, who writes, What is the name of the book that Grace wrote about her sister's disappearance? Yeah, it's called Where's Alice? And it's a fictional book. So Grace told us that it was, you know, not only she drew on inspiration from Alice's disappearance, but also from other missing women. She said it was very cathartic for her to write it. And she also hopes that once the book is out that it will help other families going through something similar. And right now it's not available, but her siblings, I believe, are in the process of reading it. We talked to Josephine about the book and Josephine had mixed feelings about it, I think, because everything is just so sensitive with this, right? But as far as Grace goes, it was a perfect outlet for her. She's very artistic. She's painted pictures of Alice. So that is her way of dealing with this tragedy. I loved meeting her and she's just very introspective. She really is a thoughtful person. Yeah. I could tell it came across so clearly in the interviews that you did with her and just everybody in this episode, Andrea, it was beautifully done, as always. Thank you. Thank you so much. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about any of our Dateline episodes, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. You can DM us your audio or video questions at Dateline NBC, or you can leave us a voicemail. That number is 212-413-5252. All of that for a chance to be featured right here on this podcast. Plus, did you know Talking Dateline is now available as a video podcast? You can check it out on YouTube or the NBC News app. And we've got some very exciting news. Dateline's Missing in America podcast has been nominated for a Webby Award in the Crime and Justice Podcast category. So we can't win without you. We need you to vote. Please go online and vote for Dateline. The deadline is Thursday, April 16th. You've included the voting link in our episode description. Thanks so much for listening. When you fill up with Phillips 66 and Conoco, you're ready to go to the library and get a library card instead of paying for overpriced t- Shhh. And you're ready to go to the amusement park on a weekday when there's no lines. And go on a six-mile hike. You instantly regret. Only two more miles to go. Go here, go there, go anywhere with Phillips 66 and Conoco.