Nick Hexum: 311, Opening for Fugazi, Bad Brains Influence & Selling 10+ Million Albums

I'll be here awhile. I'll be here awhile. You just sang a bad brains part at the end of the song. And this is... It's from I and I Survive. I wanted to do an ad-lib and nobody's better at ad-libbing than HR. This is the connection that people might wonder. I remember a guy on a message board sing, I hate that song, I'll be here while, because he rips off bad brains. I was like, no, I was giving it props. If you're a punk rocker, you knew where that came from. It's an homage. It's an homage. Hello, welcome. That's hard-law time. How you doing, Bo? I'm doing really good. Where are we? Deep in the valley, as we should be, as I always like to be. We're here for a very special reason, a very special occasion on a very special day. As it is March 11th or March 12th, or wherever you're watching this. We've got an unbelievable guest on this show today, everyone. We've got the highest grossing artist we've ever had on this show. That's a fact. Alternative rock pioneer, genuine household name, founder and vocalist of one of the first bands that either of us were probably ever coherently aware of at all. Founder and did I say founder and vocalist? You did. It's okay. Nick Hexham of 311. Hey. Happy 311 day. Yeah, all right. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you for spending it with us. Yeah, we really appreciate it. What an honor. Super cool. How are you? Doing great. Beautiful. We're not in the valley. We're in the Santa Monica Mountains Preserve. Just disappointing. I didn't want to dox you. I'm always talking about Topanga. Okay. Topanga to me is an extension of the valley. What's the area? The road goes through the valley. They call it Topanga Mall, which is nowhere near actual Topanga, but whatever. Maybe it was named after the gal from Boy Meets World. Let's address the elephant on the beach here. That is what a shocking revelation it is. Every time somebody, like I'm sure you experience all the time, every time somebody finds out that 311 is from Omaha, it's probably like a what do you mean type thing and you've been getting it your whole life. What it said, long beach. No problem. Let's walk us back to young Nick in Omaha discovering music. How did that sound, that attitude, that style make its way to you? Well, I liked the Beach Boys. This the West Coast surf culture type of thing. It fascinated me. I was very lucky that me and my sister got to take a lot of trips with my grandparents all around Caribbean, Hawaii. I just loved being at the beach and building sand castles. It just kind of was drew me out there. I've been hearing Bob Marley just elevated me to a different place in more ways than one, the elevation. We all came out here. I came out here first in 1988 when I was 17. Then after floundering around the sunset strip for a little bit, we're trying to find some guys to make a band with. I realized that my homies from Omaha were my best collaborators. Omaha, is it too old? Yeah. Went back to Omaha in 1990 and started 311. Then we all came out together in 92. But I have to say we're very proud of our Omaha roots. We have both toured. We've played Omaha a lot, especially being from Chicago. First stop going west after maybe Quad Cities. We have heard stories of like, oh yeah, when 311 are around or if 311 crew, they come to the bar. It's like, ah, lords of the city kind of thing. Once I discovered it, I never forgot it. But it was still shocking nonetheless when I did realize that you guys were true Midwestern familial. Yeah, big time. Omaha is a great, like a lot of touring bands tell us like Omaha crowds, man. They just give you so much. They're not jaded. We've had that where it's a little harder to get LA crowds whipped into a frenzy because they see so many shows all the time and blah, blah, blah. In Omaha, they give you that energy. We had that launching pad from the start. Our first gig was opening for Fugazi of all people and just the place went buck wild. He printed that out. Let's talk about it. Check it out. Walk me through it. Okay. See where it says fish hippos? That was, so what happened was we were called Unity. Me and Tim and Chad had a band. And then we got back to Omaha at different times. Chad had been jamming with peanut and they came up with the name Fish Hippos. And then he, I... You don't have to hold the farm. I called him and just to say what's up and he was like, dude, we got a gig opening for Fugazi. And I was like, that sounds awesome. He was like, why don't you come back and sing? And I said, okay, but can we change the name from Fish Hippos? And so then we talked about it and peanut was like, well, I did a talent show under the name 311. And I was like, I love it. Just a number. And then he said, well, it's also the police code for indecent exposure. I read that. I was like, I still love it. Let's do that. But I really liked, it was kind of that Gen X mystery of just like having a number. Were you a Fugazi guy or a minor threat guy? Oh yeah. Okay. We'll get there. Take me there. Take me there. Let's go back to, tell me that your roots in punk music. How'd you find it? My buddy Joe Brady's older brother, Mark, had a great punk collection. And so this was, I heard the clash from him and it just blew my mind. Those are your guys, right? Yeah. That is like my number one. And then also like the OG punk from England, but then also the next generation of LA punk and like you said, minor threat and bad brains. But I love heavy music too. I have always just tried to be super eclectic and just follow the muse as we were talking out before, wherever it leads. But yeah, definitely punk was huge for me when I heard, it was the clash's first album, the self titled one that was the green album in America and a black album in England. And the first performance I ever did was a school talent show. And when we were called a tribute to the clash and we did, we were slated to do two clash songs, police and thieves, and which was actually cover. And then a song called Protex Blue, which I found out later was about condoms. And then we basically kind of had a mutiny that we had our friends start chanting encore, encore. And then we ripped into should I stay or should I go. Hell yeah. And, you gotta get the people that want, you know. And then the music teacher ran out and unplugged our amps. So all you could hear was the drums. But that's the best case scenario for proto punk guys, you know. You did it. You started the revolution. That's right. Amazing. So aside from the clash and early punk, I had also read that some big first steps for you were Margaritaville. Their song on guitar. And rappers delight. And I think when you combine those three ideas, it's like there's three eleven. Wow. Yeah. No kidding. Kind of crazy. Oh, and the entertainer. Of course. A little ragtime piano. You got it. You can understand my piano here. So I don't play much piano. My oldest daughter Echo is incredible at piano. But yeah, I just like to be all over the place. But after the clash, then maybe the chili peppers, Jane's Addiction, Fishbone, which those were happening in LA. So that was like a big draw to come out and go to club scream and see Jane's Addiction and meet the chili peppers at their show in the palace. And it was very exciting time. To have like funk combined with punk rock energy. Grew up punk listening to funk. There you go. I got you. He knows his shit. So the name was changed. And decent exposure was the police code in Omaha for it. Were you aware of the rumor of what three eleven stood for? Of course you were. No, please tell me. Oh, really? Of course you were. For anyone wondering. Which one? Yeah, right. Three K is the eleventh letter in the alphabet. And the thought was like, oh, they're like, but it's the same thing. Three Ks. Yeah, yeah. We have nothing. We were the opposite of the K.K. Of course. But and there was my friend's band called the 88. They ran into the same thing because the 88 is H.H. Of course. And yeah, it was, it's hard to believe when such a ridiculous rumor comes up. There's something about something so salacious and like controversial that makes people believe it the first time they hear it. So it's actually interesting like sociological thing. It really is. That people wouldn't, that some people would believe it with it before really even looking into it. And that the craziest part is that our high school, me and Tim and Chad went to West Side High in Omaha and they actually banned three 11 shirts because they believed it. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. And and my brother was at that high school at the time and he was like, I'm not taking my shirt off because this is bullshit. Yeah. And and then the story actually made it into Rolling Stone and that was our like our first kind of mention of getting really like into the conversation. In that context. Awesome. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Right. But I guess, you know, they say all press is good press. So let's go back a little bit. So tell me about the Eds because that was how some of you first met each other. Yeah. So me and Tim had a band called the Eds because our drummer was named Ed and he was just a real character. And so we called ourselves the Eds. This is one of them though. And we were playing the the alternative of the time was was College Rock. It was like R.E.M. and the Smiths and the Cure and kind of like Jangle Rock. But we we did it with a little bit more energy, a little bit more some punk in there. And then we started doing originals and we were like winning these Battle of the Bands and you know, we so from the success of that in high school, I was like, this is doable. You know, if you're able to get a crowd going, that is that's the most important thing. And I've I've often said it in a very dated way that like some of the best I've said this forever. Most musicians in the world are playing at a bar at the Holiday Inn. You know what I mean? And it's now they don't they don't have music at the Holiday Inns anymore. But when I started out, they probably did. So that's where that expression has been around. I mean, it's the best chess players are on the street on Hollywood and Highland. Right. Yeah. You know, can't beat those guys. So but the differentiation of being able to work a crowd into really losing their inhibitions. Like whether it's a metal show or a punk show or a hip hop show, people moving their bodies together is a is a continuation of the tribal dance that has been integral to the human experience for about 50,000 years. You know what I mean? Like they say drums have gone back maybe 100,000 years and melodic instruments started coming in about 50 and singing. So it's just it's like a very important thing. So when I talk to people, people ask me for advice. I'm like, show your instruments some love every day, but take every gig and work on getting people to lose their inhibitions and move their bodies. We say this all the time. Coming from a more punk and hardcore world, we get asked all the time, how do you how do we tour? How do we start this? And it's just you got to show up. You just got to go. Yeah. Start with a play and open and lead by example to lose your inhibitions because nobody like if you're just standing there. Like that was always the thing that we would just we probably were pretty sloppy in the early days, but we would just go off. Right. And going off. Playing isn't performing, you know? Right. Eventually you're performing. Yeah. No one wants to go to a show and see the record exactly how it's performed how it's recorded. They want to see something. How was Fugazi at that show? Super nice. I mean like they are so DIY. First of all, you were not they never charge more than $5 for a show. The $5 tickets, what that was literally the price. It's probably on the flyer. They didn't have merch because they didn't believe in it for some reason. So then people started making it. This is not a Fugazi T-shirt. Great shirt. Yeah. Good. Which there are beliefs that they made those, but we'll have to confirm or deny with Mr. Ian at some point. But the thing was they were super nice because they just called ahead like a local punker in Omaha and said, can you get some local bands to open for us? And Peanut somehow got wind of it and got us that gig. So it was super DIY. We were huge part of yours at the time. So we were sitting there drinking 40 ounces and I didn't realize until after that that was a pretty big faux pas to be like loudly drinking at a Fugazi show because they're straight edge, but they didn't say anything. Who knows? I don't know that they were so straight edge by that time. I understand though. Yeah. That's kind of you to even think that. Coming from two straight edge guys ourselves, we understand, but I don't think, I don't think any of them would have really cared. I think you were fine. They were super gracious and complimentary and it was awesome. Now I would be right at home with that situation. But we were pretty hard part of yours, I bet you. That's awesome. Was there a lot of people? Yeah. It always blows my mind how that band operated that way and was able to draw. Yeah. It was crazy. So you go to LA by yourself. You're seeing Jane's Addiction, Red Hot Chili Peppers. You go home, reunite with the boys. 311 is formally born. What's next? The damnit record? That's first? Yeah. So I took a student loan to fund our first record, which was probably illegal. Vap's the records. Yeah. And we made a cassette out of that and started selling at the shows. And then our second record, and I was basically like the one employee of the label. It was called What Have You Records, which is part of that, what have you means like whatever. Yeah. It's just that Gen X kind of humor. Then we made a CD, which was like a huge deal in 1991 to actually get a CD because there was no CD burners or anything. So it was like, we've got a CD. And that was called Unity. You still play some of these songs. Yeah, a lot of those songs kind of got revamped to make it onto our major label debut, which was music. And then we made another tape, which was more of an EP called Hydroponic. And then we played these new music Mondays at the Ranch Bowl, which was all-ages shows. And we sold it out. I mean, it would be just crazy, mashing, stage diving, close off, just a wild, wild scene. And then we were selling lots of tapes and CDs to the extent that Homer's Records was the main cool record store downtown. And the guy told us, you're our number one selling album right now. Wow. And I was like, do you mean local? He was like, no. It's ahead of you two and Madonna and Michael Jackson, which were big in 91. I was able to take that and send it to some labels. And I did a lot of bullshitting. A lot of like, you know. You fluffed the numbers a little bit. Yeah, or be like, I'd read a name in Rolling Stone. This guy loved it. Yeah, so and so from Capital Records. I'm in talks with Doug Morris at Capital, just complete bullshit. But you know what I mean? It was kind of Machiavellian. I just kind of felt like I knew we had something good to offer. And so started getting some tiny bit of label interest, but then we're like, we got to go out to LA. And I don't know if it was necessary. The truth is, is that we flew, they, once we got a label interested, they wanted to see us live. And I'm like, well, we need, you need to see us in front of the Omaha crowd because we hadn't had a big, you know, following and no following in LA at that time. So we flew back to do like a showcase and they were like, this is the real deal. And so we got signed to Capital Records. And so before that was Eddie Offord, the legendary Prague rock producer who had done like Emerson Lakin Palmer. Yes. And yes. And he had worked with John Linnan. And so he was just like this classic English studio guy, kind of a gentleman, kind of a wild man, part like Ozzy Osbourne and part like this mad scientist. And so he kind of took us under his wing and part of the deal was like, well, if Eddie produces your album, then like all systems go, let's go. And so we got... Did he have much influence on like the time signatures and more progressive things you're doing? I mean, I think he helped... I know, remember that he helped me see where I was rushing because a lot of like punk rock energy is pushing the beat. And he was like, you're ahead, you're ahead, you're ahead. Like slow down and like listen to the drummer. And so there was some things about performance, but a lot of it was he was just a very like a big engineer. Like he would brought in all this gear with effects. And he actually really taught Chad especially about mic-ing and e-cuing and compression. So we just like it was like a crash course. And yeah, and then music came out and we went on the road and then our RV burned up. Feel free to ask me to elaborate. Yeah, but the whole band, you said the whole band moved to LA, the whole band specifically moved to Van Nuys, right? What do you remember the Cross Streets? It was Bessemer. It was basically Sunny Slope in Bessemer. It was like near a Woodman and kind of near the college there. Valley College? Yeah. I voted there. Wow. Okay. So the whole band's in Van Nuys. Yes. Respect. Music. Let's talk about music. Do you consider Dammit and Unity like super canon to the 311 discography? They're not on streaming really, right? No. So what we did is it's not on streaming, but we did make a CD called Omaha Sessions, which was kind of like the best of those first three independent albums. So but kind of need to be put on streaming. Can't hurt. Hey. The 311's just around the corner. Pardon me. Oh, beautiful. It's the elevation. So music is probably most people's first exposure, I would say to 311. Well, the thing is, is that because we did the weird thing of naming our third album, 311, people assumed and that was the record that really blew up with Down. So only a lot of people's like, your first album is amazing. I'm like, do you mean they're like, you know, the blue one, 311? No, that's actually our third album. You mean? Go ahead. But we were building up a pretty good grassroots following and that was the that's why we named the second album that because it was like that was all about our philosophy. We knew that what we were doing with the rap rock and the reggae and there was no radio format that was would even consider that at the time. But do you write did get some MTV airplay for the first time? Like on the show, 120 minutes, like it played like twice. Okay. It wasn't like a. And it got some airplay on on K-Rock. And I remember we were sitting by the little pool in our little house in Van Nuys and it came on on K-Rock and they were like, believe it or not, this band is from Nebraska. We need to move to Nebraska if this is how music. So it was it was like this really cool. That's awesome. Interesting. The big radio station in Chicago for alternative stuff was Q101, which was a K-Rock, you know, satellite station or whatever. 311 was inescapable in my memory of my childhood. I was born in 87. So especially by mid 90s, that was inescapable, especially, especially these first three records from music onward. As of 1992, when essay joined the band, spooky apparition. He's had a few. Oh, okay. At one point he was like, I'm scribe annihilator. Whoa. Was that your favorite apparition? But the truth was is that when I had moved out here and I worked and I was a waiter and the kitchens, they were all the cooks were all say, what's up, essay. And so and being that he's Hispanic, I was like, what's up essay and just stuck. Wow. Wow. Fascinating. That's some hard lore. Yeah. When did you guys, you two specifically? Essay just means man. Yeah. Bro. When did you two figure a lot of bands, Allison Chains, who's another harmony type band? Kenny and Pete. Kenny and Peter from typo have a specific type of harmony, like a specific relative. I don't know what it is on the piano. When did you guys figure out that you had this harmony that became so like a signature style? Yeah. I mean, I have more of a baritone range. I always like to sing along with like Jim Morrison or Sinatra, you know, like lower vocals. So I knew I needed somebody to sing a little higher. And then essay had just first, like I think he was doing guest spots with us from our very first gig. Like we, right about now, we'd like to bring out essay to come out and do. Oh, he was already essay. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And then as time went on, we'd have had him start singing harmonies and it just kind of evolved that, you know, like I said, Beach Boys, I've always loved harmonies, the Beatles, like, so it's just like the third above that just, but sometimes we'll like cross. Yes. And do you write, there's like, we'll actually cross, like I'll go a little higher and he would go lower just to create that interesting thing of that you're used to it staying in parallel, but then when it crosses, it sounds cool. So early on, you knew you had that in the repertoire. Yeah. It's great. Tim and Chad are both good singers too, but they're too focused on their playing. So yeah, two dedicated vocalists just worked out. You've been the same unit of people since 1992. Which doesn't happen. Damn near impossible. What is the dynamic like within 311 today? What's the secret? Yeah, please. Get off me. Don't touch me. A lot of touching. Yeah. I think that you have to be ready to not get your way to be flexible to respect democracy. You know, you might have to be go down to rock, paper, scissors, but most of the time it never even comes to a vote. That's a kind of a bit of a failure of discussion when you can't just talk it out. Yeah, I agree. And I think for me it's about not putting unnecessary skin in the game if it's not something I'm passionate about. Just like, yeah, whatever you guys want to do is cool. And there are certain things that are important to me that if it's a song that is a little weird but I really love it, then the guys will, okay, obviously Nick really wants to do this. Is there one that comes to mind that you were like, please guys, just trust me, I'm going to fight for this and then ended up being a banger? Well, I mean, I really like when I wrote Amber, it was just like, oh yeah, I got this song too, but I don't know if it's right for us. And then our producer Ron St. Germain was like, bro, the hook, he was like, the hook, the hook, you got it put out Amber. And I was like, well, I kind of like it. But it was very out of step with everything we had done up to that point. It's much softer and mellower. So when there was a song on Mose called Places that the Mind Goes that I was like, I really love this song, can we please do it? And everyone was cool. But I think that I like the Morrissey lyric, fame, fame, fatal fame, it can play hideous tricks on the brain. But then he goes on to say, but still I'd rather be famous than righteous or holy any day. But the tricks on the brain, the tricks on the brain, it can mess a lot of artists will think that maybe that they're the reason that you have to value your collaborators and really know that you're better together than you could be separately. And I mean, I just honestly believe that we stumbled onto something really special. And that it wasn't like a studio creation of any producer, like here you and this guy get together. It was just very natural through friendship or it's just like friendship first, and then fun of making music. And then it turns into a business, but the friendship needs to be at the core of it. And of course, where we are in this timeline to just the fun and thrill of success and like, hey, this is working like we're doing it. I'm sure. And then also all the hard times that are going to come with that to be what it is like your RV burning up before this all happened. Those are bonding moments that kind of cauterize everything and will make those relationships because it's like, hey, man, at least our RV isn't burning. You can always kind of fall back to that memory. No, it's true. After all our stuff burned up, I remember seeing the guys, all we need is the songs in our head and each other and none of this stuff really matters. And we borrowed equipment and played a gig the very next night. Even though my hair was burned up, I literally jumped through flames to escape with my life. It was this sheet of flames and I was like, there was only one door, so I jumped through it and then I put my hand in my hand. It was just ash and it just all broke and fell all over the place. The hair's looking great. Yeah, I think so. I made it. My RV damn. I had burns on my arm. Oh my God. And then we were standing there in the burning hot Missouri sun in July with burns on us. But yeah, we just kept, we borrowed equipment and just kept going. So there was no like the RVs fucked, the bans done. Not even for a second. I love it. I love that. Love it. Yeah. So here we go. 311, self-titled. Breakthrough phenomenon. Over 3 million copies sold. Produced by a man named Ron St. Jermaine as you brought up earlier, who was at some point the front of house guy at CBGBs and also the producer of Bad Brain's Eye Against Eye and Quickness. Yeah, two very, very important albums and he worked with Tool and Fishbone and Living Color. So it was this really important music to me. And he had been the house guy at Electric Ladyland. So he had a lot of stories, crazy stories about like he was in the Broadway production of Hair, which he said was just like a basically like a big long orgy because it was all this like free love, like, you know, hippie vibes on stage and backstage. So he had a lot of really interesting stories and super high energy guy. Always wore leather pants and was like jumping off the jumping around the control room of like with excitement. So which is very affirming as the people making the music. Yeah, yeah. And that's like, I think around that album is when I started dropping mention of being excitable because I didn't like being, I didn't like the jadedness of like people like they're too cool. I'm like, if you're, it's being honest and just saying what you what you like is very important because there was a bit of a thing in the 90s of people saying like everything sucks and like, I'm like, that's, that's a you problem. You know what I mean? So Seattle mentioned. That's a you problem, Seattle. Right? Yeah. And it was, it was actually a very prosperous time. Like there's no more Soviet Union and we're not going to get bombed. You know what I mean? Because I grew up in Omaha of them saying like, well, because we're here by a sack Air Force base, if there's a nuclear war, don't worry, we'll be completely obliterated. So we won't have to deal. And I'm like, oh, Jesus. Don't worry. And then but so the 90s, there was no, you know, it was a it was a peaceful and prosperous time. So we were trying to be a bit of a antidote to sort of some of the downerism that was going on. But I, I believe in being fully saying every every part of your experience. And if if you're in pain, it's definitely good to put that in your music, but it also became something that people would kind of hide behind in a way. And just kind of feedback, feedback. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I got you. I was at Tower Records with my mom. And I was having a great time. Great day. You reached me. Yeah, you got that. Was were I against I in quickness? Like are those things you you go, oh, he did these. Let's let's go with this guy. Yeah. These are the best produced albums that I've heard, like at the time. So can we please get him. And when he was like excited to work with us or like it was it was a match made in heaven. We had really by that time put in our 10,000 hours of gig after gig after gig. Like we on grass grass roots, we moved out of our little Van Nuys house and lived on the road. We didn't have a home. We put had a little storage unit with our meager possessions, but mostly, you know, we just lived on the road and lived on the bus and would go out for for months at a time. So that's when we really honed our chops. And then when we went to go make the. So you were very ready. We were so ready. In terms of writing it was that how involved was Ron, how much was written before the session actually began. So we've worked with some producers that are will really get it like with with Bob Rock. He'll get a guitar and be like, OK, now what's this court? All right. How about it? Try a different court and maybe on the bridge you do this lift here where you do go to the major to like rolling stones like do you want to try it? And that's a different type of producer that we hadn't been used to before. Bob Rock was a very cool learning experience. The previous producers we had were a little more focused on engineering and just. OK. But but Ron was he was like, here's how you're going to capture the energy. Get in a room and do it like you do it a gig. So the blue album was played live in the studio. We played at the same time and then we went back and overdubbed vocals and guitar solos. And we were also just starting to get really into the studio trickery with scratches and samples and you guys. You got toys. You got toys in there. There's a couple of toys I'm excited to bring up later. I don't want to know about. Was this digital or tape? Tape. Yeah. We stayed we we stayed on tape longer than most. It was with Bob Rock on the uplift or album in oh seven or something that we he was like you can get a good analog sound onto Pro Tools. And before that we'd stayed on tape kind of longer than most bands. So we were of the belief that everything musically comes from somewhere. And I've always been so curious about like the heavy elements of 311. I saw you mentioned helmet as an influence. I can see that. Are there any other kind of like the stuff like gang gang gang gang gang gang gang gang gang gang. What where is that coming from? Yes helmet was and also the the riffs in you know the opening to quickness. So that was something like the single note riffs that was it was just really happening at the time and other kind of lesser known artists like 24 7 spies was doing it. And you know the living color the cult of personalities riff like riffers. Yeah the single note riffs were very happening in the early 90s. And then we we kind of did our own spin on it. And then on our first album the song Hydro Panic was like let's it was it was Chad's writing that it was like taking heaviness like his background was more on the metal side would like kiss like he changed his life when he was a little kid. And so like those big open spacious riffs like that. And then you know we had some grateful dead influence from from Tim and peanut like like you know Iron Maiden and more like that traditional metal. So it was a big harmonized leads and shit. And one of the best players in the middle ever Steve Harris. Yeah. On real. We used to check in under assume names. You can't do that anymore. And I think I think peanut used the Paris. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's great. So is this a kind of thing where you finish tracking this record. You listen to the master back for the first time and you you know what you've got. Yeah I felt like down was super exciting. Although the label at the time was pushing us more towards a song that had singing throughout like don't stay home all mixed up which did pretty well. Which did pretty well. But down. So it went it went don't stay home first. Which did okay got on MTV a little bit. And then all mixed up did a little better and then down which is number one. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a buzz clip which was a big deal on MTV buzz clip means this is the song that everyone's buzzing about. So and they played it once an hour. So it was everything took off super fast at that time. And I remember people saying like now that you guys got this buzz clip there's all these kids at your show. And I'm like good. There's something special about when you're that age what a band can mean to you. You're not just the plasticity of your brain and so forth. You'll never be affected like you are 100% that you're into in your teen years. There's something inherently punk rock about that attitude too. Because that's not elitist. No and it's a young person's thing. And I was that kid. And we were all yeah. I will never forget the down video and I will never forget the first 150 Pokemon. And that's a fact. It's true. So the down is the down video entering the stratosphere kind of the I made it we made it moment. Yeah. There was a few I made it moments was going on David Letterman. Because I used to stay up like David Letterman used to be on really late after Johnny Carson. So I'd stay up late and he was just like so sarcastic and snarky and stuff. He got softer as he went along. So I was a huge David Letterman fan. So it'd be on the card. You throw one if you want like David. And then you got to make a breaking sound. Yeah. Okay. Ready Steve? Thanks Steve. Yeah. And then opening for Kiss which was somewhat terrifying because they're like known to have some of the most you know we we did get boot a little bit but they said we got boot a lot less than some of the other bands that they had open. They'd have an army and a navy. You know what I mean. So that's true. All right. What are three eleven heads called? We got excitables or the three eleven nation. Three eleven nation is pretty good. Excitables the hive is kind of another. That has a couple meanings for you guys. Yeah. And then it became our studio. It just came out of a there was in the in like 94 there was some rap lyrics about this is the go for self era. And then after that I was like no this is 95 we go for the hive like we are. And then it became a lyric in that song became the name of our studio. And I like it. I love it. Do you think the down video is the first music video that you remember Madonna Madonna for sure. Madonna was the down and then down. Yeah. I was so young that he's a little younger than me. I'm 38. He's a little bit younger. The lyric hearing you say or as I said a dream of juice. I was young enough where that meant something to me because you know we were like me too. Yeah. Yeah. He gets I can't wait to have my juice in the morning. There you go. Turn it up. Juicy juice. Yeah. I remember thinking you were the same guy when I was young. He was the same person singing both parts. You know big moment for the spooky apparition. This is oh he's pretty he's the diverse pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean his he's a better rapper. So like giving him the verses and and down and like I just but I knew that hook that the chorus was like super strong and a lot of and the the the riffs which I I do have to credit like the helmet influence. You can with the harmonic thing. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. And there's some sound guard and influence in there you know but with Chad's beats with more of a hip hop sensibility it created something. And the tightest piccolo snare. Yeah. I actually I was like he's kind of lowered it. I was like yeah crank it back up a little bit like the old days. Yeah. It's the tiny desk. I feel like he cranked that sucker. Are you still keeping track of like other than helmet and you know bad brains are you are you keeping track of like contemporary punk and hardcore at this time. During that era. Yeah. In the mid 90s. Well we went on the warp tour. So getting to see you know H2O and Blink before Travis. Really. Pennywise. No effects. You're a big no effects guy right. Yeah. Yeah. That like the way they had a higher music like the harmonies on a punk and drum like was like okay this is they came right here. What are you gonna do. Sure it is. I thought you're asking me and I was like yeah. Like does hate breed come across your desk at some point. You're like yeah this is hard. I know I had too far. Yeah. I mean I probably like it. I think you would. I just certain things just get lobbed over my fence. Sure. I love Lamb of God. That's like 5B baby. Workout 5B. That's right. Pardon this interruption. We hate to get you all mixed up while listening to this incredible episode but we gotta tell you about one quick thing. Who do we got Colin. This episode is brought to you by Brain Dead. It is safe to say there is no brand more directly aligned with both the identity of this show and that comes original more than Brain Dead. That's right we've done multiple live events there. We did the green room interview and commentary stuff there. They're always involved directly with the fest and shows and screenings and sound and fury and all the things that we all love. Not only do they make some of our favorite denim and apparel but they do incredible collabs with the likes of Morbid Angel, Godzilla, Brody King and even Cannibal Corpse which you can pick up right now at WeAreBrainDead.com. Like Bo said we've been doing our annual Sound and Fury live pre-show there for 3 years now and we're working on the next one as we speak. So go to studios.wearebraindead.com. Check out the calendar. See what's playing this month whenever you're watching this. At the end of this month on March 29th there is a special free screening of the fly with exclusive merch. It's first come first serve so it's bound to be a beautiful disaster. And you know maybe we'll see you there back to the episode. So touring on the self-title. Your world changes now. RVs are no more certainly. It's bus time. When does 311 go to Europe for the first time? What's that like? Oh yeah. We played, I think we played Glass in Barry. Big one. Yeah on, maybe it was 94 so on the Grass Roots tour. Wow. Yeah but they were not ready for us. It was not, it didn't. A year later though they were tied-eyed out dancing. But I don't know, honestly I have a bit of regret that we didn't spend enough time on overseas you know connecting with those people. We became a little bit spoiled by how good things were in the States. But we've been put in, you know we went to Europe last year and we just got back from South America and Central America. But that was lit. It was insane. The crowds were, it was like a truly 90's vibe of like the energy that was coming back. Wow I love that. I think it's what you're really happy to hear. You really do gotta come to Brazil. It also, I want you to know as people who have toured Europe many times and struggled in Europe many times, it makes me feel good to know that 311 did too. That 311 did too, you know that it was like yeah they weren't really ready for us. And I remember as we were hitting, really hitting our second wind around Amber, we still were on Sony at the time and our manager played the video for Amber to a meeting of the label in Europe and they were like, it's very California. I do not get it. I cannot relate to this. It's quite laid back. Yeah, I can see that. So now you have the impossible task of following up this massive success and you do that by putting out a 21 song, 68 minute, would be double LP transistor. What happened there? Great, like bold, awesome decision, but an interesting one. And I, whenever we talk about transistor, I kinda wanna remind people that there was a significant backlash of people saying 311 sucks now because we weren't doing an album full of riff rock like they were used to on the Blue album. So it was, the label was definitely disappointed by how transistor was received and it was a pretty big, we felt like we don't wanna just keep repeating our, you know, we wanna make sure that we're challenging ourselves and our fans to make sure we're putting creativity first. And there was a lot of new influences coming in of like Dub Reggae and Trip Hop from England and Dance Hall Reggae and like just kind of all over the place and you know, Tim with his, you know, jam band, cool licks and stuff like that. So we, where the Blue album was like, let's just make a killer album that's for, that every song is gonna be great live, energy, energy. And this album was like, let's not even worry about how it's gonna be live. It's just like go with the trippiness, the psychedelia, the, you know, studio filigree and just... It's tidal almost, you know, like it makes sense that, okay, then we're gonna, you know, but that being said, beautiful disaster. Yeah, what's there to be disappointed about this, Sony? I'm losing my mind. I'm the way here, listen to that song. And that was the first song written for the album? Yeah, and I'd been listening to a lot of No Effects, Pumpkin Drublich. Yeah, so it really... And then we'd also been touring with The Urge from St. Louis and they would have these really cool intros, these horn, like three-part horn intros and I was like, we could do that on guitar and then it came out, you know, that sort of like thin, Lizzy like, you know, harmonizing guitar thing that was like influenced by that kind of like ska bands that had these like horn intros and stuff like that. I love that you did that instead of bringing in horn. Yeah. And as the only credited writer on this song, does that feel good? You're proud, particularly proud of this one? Yeah, my mom loves this song, Beautiful Disaster. It's just mine. Look at us. But it just, it really paints a picture, I guess, and then, because I didn't want it to just be like negative, like, I can't care. I do, I don't, whatever, like, I don't, you know, that you're torn of like somebody that you know is not like really good for you, but you know, you're attracted to the care-free attitude and, you know... It's beautiful, you know. And... I have a couple questions about this song. The very first note that's palm muted on this song, there's an undertone. And I notice you do it live too, because you intro the song live, right? Like, you start the song off. Yeah. And it's like, then it goes single string. What is that? So I wanted to have some feedback, so I actually had a, I'll split the signal and had an extra rack mount amp that had a rock tron, one, a one-twelve inch in a cabinet that I would point at the guitar to make it feedback that would just make the, give the riffs more energy. So I would just hit the guitar and then also during the sort of the vamp that kind of outro that happened after the chorus going... Yeah. And then when you have a speaker pointed at the guitar at the time, it makes those harmonics really, really ring out. That first note is like... I'm talking about the actual first note. It sounds like you're barring two and two, let's say, because is it two, oh two? That was a little sloppy. But that's all in it? But you do it live. Which I appreciate. You're doing the thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. I try and just have the same approach. Awesome. I love that. You also do a thing in this, and I would kind of want to find the first time a band did this. You do what we call, there's a band called Marauder that we love, do the Marauder chord. It's like when you would play a power chord on the A... The fully barred power. But then you also match the root to the E string. You could do that big, fat bar chord. Yeah. So that... We knew that lower frequencies made it more heavy. So a lot of people don't know that the octaver pedal is all over all those albums. And we still... Wow. It's still a big part of what we do today. But we didn't really want to be like another seven string guitar band. So we would do a lot of inversions that made it so... If you're playing like a C chord, you're also playing the G below it to give it that real dense kind of inverted fifth that made it heavy to us without having... We're still just all standard tuning. Just E standard. Sometimes it sounds like G sharp. Yeah. It's just by finding those overtones of the inversions. And lastly, you play the second guitar with the lead part and the intro part. Did you do that prior or was this kind of your first like, well, for this song I need to play the guitar to dual? Yeah. I think that was the first dual lead thing. And growing up in Omaha, we heard so many bands do that kind of thing. And like Kansas and all these classic rock kind of bands that had a lot of the dual lead kind of thing. And nobody else was doing it in alternative that I remember. So that was kind of a bit of a breakthrough and that we've kept with us ever since Beautiful Disaster. With 21 tracks, some things are bound to get lost somewhere. Is there... Even though the record did go platinum, so, you know, success, much fresh. Is there a song you wish was a single or got more love from transistor? Well, I just one thing about the approach of it is that the same way that the Clash did a triple album of San D'Nista and then they put on there that it was only supposed to cost like $8.99 to force. So you were giving tons of bang for your buck was we had that same approach to say, we're just going to be restrained by how much the CD will hold. Yeah, the literal data. Fill it up. And the label was like, you cannot fit another song on here. So we actually wrote 30 songs for that album and cut nine of them to be on that. And we were just like, anything goes, just say us to everything. And I think the other guys were really coming into their stride as writers at the time, you know, with essay writing music for the first, you know, the instrument side of things for the first time and Peanut and Tim. And before that had been more me and Chad. But what was your question? Anything else? A song in particular that you kind of wish got more praise? I don't know. The Closer Stealing Happy Hours is just a really nice, like we play it live in a fair amount. There's kind of sleepers mixed in there, kind of throughout. And then, but there was, I don't know, only a couple bangers like what was I thinking and Beautiful Disaster, oh, and like Galaxy, but definitely was had the most percentage of like clean guitar and softer songs but than any of our albums. So at this point, is every 311 show just a sea of people by this time? Yeah. And so what constitutes a good show and a bad show? Well, let's see. On the Transist tour, we called it, we had Incubus and Sugar Ray opening trucks. And then we moved into arenas and amphitheaters kind of the first time as a headliner. And yeah, I remember a lot of good shows, but I also kind of started to feel a feeling of pressure and that's when I would get in and out of phases of like doing too many drugs and cleaning up my act and back and forth until like finally getting cleaned up. But it was an exciting time. I do remember a feeling of pressure. Before that, we had just been like hungry, like we're going to make our mark in the world. We're going to make people pay attention and we're just going to, and then, oh, no, everyone's actually paying attention. It was like a shift. Sound system. Recorded in 1999. Was Y2K at all a concern to 311? So we were really burned out after the Transist tour and we took 98 off except for the first month we did the Australian Warp tour. But February through December was off. We really needed a break because we had been at it. And so we all got houses and settled down. We all lived in like Laurel Canyon within a mile of each other. What hobby did you get into? Sure you got into something. I did some surfing for the first time. I got dogs, decorating a house and learning to be a grown up. That was your year to learn? Yeah. We'll get there. And then we got into the studio for Sound System and then we were like, all right, we're kind of ready to rock a little harder again after. I love that Transistor is embraced now. But like I said, there was a bit of a backlash of people saying 311's gone soft. They suck now. So we kind of then the pendulum was swinging back towards like the heavy riffs and the palm muting opening of like freeze time. And then I remember we were like, Hupagin. This is a super successful producer with like the police and XTC and Phil Collins. And then when he got there, he was kind of like, I just want you to know, I really don't work on the songs. I'm just going to like record them really good for you. And I was like, oh, I thought you were going to help me with like every breath you take part two. Yeah, right. But you know, it was a cool experience. Which is kind of what you were used to with Ron in a way, right? Other than the energy? Yeah, exactly. It was another more of an engineer focused producer. So it was cool. But I always wanted help and input from, so that's why like I said, working with Bob Rock was really cool because he like the biggest bag of tricks. There's a song on one of the Bob Rock records I can't wait to talk about. But before then, we have got to come original. Oh my God. Oh my God, dude. This fucking banger. Tell me about writing come original. So part of the writing of that was me and SA and our buddy Brian Ling going down to Jamaica in 98 to infiltrate like the dance hall scene. And like we went because native Wayne, who you hear his voice going come original on that and he was like he is kind of the world's leading reggae impresario. I just saw him about a month ago to do a benefit song for the Jamaica just got worked over in that hurricane last year. So he had us come down and stay at his condo and told us like where to go in Montego Bay and St. Anne's and Ocho Rios. And like he was like, okay, so like the real reggae places are down here. And like you can go up here on, I think you'll be fine. And we went down and we were like the only white people there and like these massive walls of speakers just and we were just like grooving and dancing and mixing with the locals and buying people red stripes. So came back from that and like that dance hall was really in us like the clubs, the cool clubs at the time were playing like, you know, beanie man and Chacodimas and pliers and like this really cool dance hall music. And then but to do like rock riff combined with the dance hall rhythm that we were into from the club scene and the dance hall, that was a unique blend. And then I had heard Pina do this like sick bass line. I was like, we can do that for the rap sections of, you know, we'll have a dance hall. Yeah. He's slapping that thing. He's beating that thing. So yeah, he he he co-wrote that with me and but it's almost like a. It's like off time with the that that that. Yeah. Yeah. The guitars playing the reggaeton beat but the drums are just four four. It's awesome. Yeah. And reggaeton was actually not even a term and reggaeton came after that when Hispanic people started getting into the dance hall rhythms. But yeah, that's now Bad Bunny, David at the Super Bowl. Yeah. That's basically going back to that same the roots of Jamaica. But and then no effects and Black Eyed Peas got a shout out in the song. Yeah. And Ronnie sighs because I was the early drum and bass was a thing. I was like, this is like EDM with more and EDM was not a term back then. I was like, this is like techno, but it rocks with this. Yeah. So that was an influence. Yeah. We're just talking about originality and and just creative freedom for that song. So your message was all all all you entertainers, you got to do something original like this. Yeah. That was basically where did the term come from? What is that something you overheard in Jamaica? Maybe. Yeah. I would I mean, I heard it and I was like, he's right. He's right. I do. Who? This is who played the he's going to do it. It's going to kill me. And I'm sorry. Who played the boing on come original? You get the best boing is in the world now. Yeah, that was that would have been the dancehall sample CD that I had that I put into my rack mount Akai sampler that was made by Sly and Robbie, who I think one of them just passed away and yeah, and that they had a sample CD with all those same reggae song dancehall sounds from like murder. She wrote and like those hits. So I was like, it's all over. Just dropped in. We kind of put it low in the mix because we wanted the real instruments to be first. But luckily not too low. So there were the. I've been born for years. Well, because also we didn't talk about it, but never stop boinging. Thank you. There's a triangle in beautiful disaster also. Yeah. Ding ding ding. Yeah. And it's kind of it's kind of reggaeton in itself because of where it is in the placement. Is that sample tour with somebody playing? It's actually from that same CD. Fast. So I would just assign all these different sounds to different keys and then just be like Wow. Cool. That's awesome. Very cool. So I think music journalism has has grown in general, but I think it's become more and more retrospectively kind to 311. And I'm learning a lot. I learned a lot through just researching for this episode how unkind it could be at times. And I'm wondering when that was something that you learned to tune out. I think that we didn't have a lot of expectations to be immediately embraced. Like here's the next big thing. We just, I just didn't feel like, you know, coming out of Omaha that that was likely. So we just kind of presumed that it wasn't going to be like an easy beaker. But you're selling out amphitheaters, you're selling millions of records. So it's like, are you just seeing that peripheral and being like, that doesn't matter because this is all we have. Yeah. And we had these other examples of like them, they said Led Zeppelin sucked too. So like they don't know shit. So we're just keep making music straight for the fans and also taking sort of a business model from jam bands of being like the most important thing is to do a great live show and the CDs and everything came secondary, which was fortunate for us because then the CD business completely collapsed. Which was, I remember during Sound System when we, Sound System came out online like a week before it actually came out and our manager was like, it's here and I can't get them to take it down because it's just a bunch of fucking kids and they're telling me like enough of you and to lead and kick me off the message board. So we were like, okay, well, you know, we're a live band first anyway, we're going to tour every summer. And so we had kind of luckily preempted the whole collapse of the recorded music business. You were kind of, you were preppers. Inadvertent preppers. Do stay prepping. Yeah. Totally. You got your beans and rice and oats. So now it's time to open the hive. What inspires you guys to make your own studio in the Valley? I mean, we just knew that like it was a thousand dollars a day to get like a nice studio. So why do that? And that's 90s money too. Yeah. That's like a half a million dollars. Yes. A month. Yeah. So I just did some digging and to see that there was like this great studio that had had, you know, Stevie Wonder in it and stuff that was available for rent. So the first hive. There's two hives. Yeah. The first hive was for only for sound system that we rented. And then we put our own gear in there and we had like, we didn't buy tape machines at that point. I think that we went and recorded drums at a regular studio, but it was only like a couple. No, no, no. We recorded drums there too. Maybe we did bring in a tape machine. Anyway, and then I was like, well, why are we renting this? Because there's this other studio over here for sale and that has, you know, our current hive, which has had a really nice remodel lately, was like this kind of hotspot for New Wave in the 80s. You know, they had like Super Tramp and Devo and Missing Persons and all this like cool New Wave had been recorded there. But when we bought it, we bought it from the Sherry Lewis and Lambchop estates. Like she had filmed her puppet shows there, the TV show in the 80s. And then she passed away. I'm not exactly sure when, but and then we bought it. We bought it from her estate and then that's been the permanent hive since the From Chaos album. Yeah, let's talk about it. So yeah, I guess that's like 26 years in. We've had it. Did you, when you acquired it, did you remodel it and make it your own or did you kind of, was it kind of pre furnished and ready to rock or? Yeah, when we first got it, we recorded there for a couple albums with it as is. And it had that like real 70s like ski lodge look of like all this like just bare wood everywhere. And but that gave us like the amber drum sound and stuff. But then it started to kind of fall apart. So we've, we did a remodel there before the uplifter album. And then now we just did another one. How fun is it to build out a studio when you have the means to do kind of whatever you want? It has to be the coolest thing in the world. It is. And then because Ron St. Germain is such a gearhead, he was telling us he was like, he doesn't care for SSL. He doesn't like those boards. He's a Neve guy, the warm analog sound. And he was like, the very best board in the world is the AMAC 9098 I. And it has the, it's made by Rupert Neve. It has the Neve sound, but the full recall ability of a more modern board, but the classic sound. And he was like, they only made 10 of them. There's one in Chicago at R. Kelly's studio. He's selling it. I wonder why. And it was around the time of his first canceling. Shocked. But he kind of recovered from that. But anyway, he sold us his mixing board. And you sage it. Yes, we sage it. We had it blessed. That was a good song. And that is, and now there's only five of them in the entire world in operation and only one in California. And it's ours. Some engineers say it's the best mixing board that there is. Wow. I believe William has one of them. I believe Contra Hockins. That's unbelievable. Pennsylvania has another one. So it's from Chaos. From Chaos, first record in the hive. Yeah. A couple bangers on this one. We got to talk about one. Oh yeah. I'll be here a while. Beautiful song. Love the fact that it's double time and not halftime. You know what I mean? Yeah. Totally different vibe. Just another ballad. Another ballad. But it's got energy. You can literally like moon stomp to it. Like you can dance to it. The radio stations do this thing that drives me insane where they kind of fade out the end of the song and start talking over it and do their bullshit. And it drives me nuts. I knew this fact once, but I forgot about it. You just sing a bad brains part at the end of the song. And this is. It's from I and I Survive. And this is from Rock for Light song, which is my favorite by them. This is relatively late. Not late, but relatively into your career as a band. This is something you would almost expect early. But now it's safe. Yeah. Yeah. But you're doing it and you're wearing an influence on your sleeve, which is something we greatly appreciate as people who love to know the stories and just love on. I realized when we were doing this research that the key is the same and it's kind of a two chord song, you know, and it's the same as I and I Survive. So I'm just wondering how it happened. It just like it just needed to be said. And I was like, I wanted to do an ad lib ad lib and nobody's better at ad libbing than HR. You know, wow. You could have just screeched it. Yeah. And he just the way he plays with melody and that really his vocal influence comes from me and you hear a lot of Horace Andy, who's like the great dub reggae singer from the King Tubby days. And then he was in Massive Attack for a while and has that really strong vibrato that you can hear HR. And so there's just like a family tree going that I heard it from HR. And I was like, oh, he got that from Horace Andy. The funny thing about that song is that I've had so many people go 311. Aren't you that ska band? I'm like, yeah, on one song. I'll be here a while. We're kind of a ska band, but like, but no horns. No. It's all I care. It's all I care. It's okay to be the one time ska band if it's like a perfect ska song. Which this is. And then the bad brains toss in at the end. You're fine. So all the credibility in the world. So again, like I told you, when we do stuff like this, we fly out, we deep dive, you know, and we just listen to everything. And I was at the airport on my way here the other day and this one came on and let it play through because I had to lay over, you know, and it wasn't, there wasn't some disc jockey talking over it. And I like, I had like that moment, you know, where I just, I was like, oh, here it is. This is the connection that people might wonder. Fugazi first show. Fugazi first show. Bad brains riff on the thing. And I'm glad you guys have a positive look on that because I've like, I dropped a little lyric. I remember a guy on a message board saying, I hate that song. I'll be here. Well, because he rips off bad brains. I was like, no, I was giving it props. Like if you're a punk rocker, you knew where that came from. It's like, it's an homage. And the same thing in the song Hive, I drop a classic lyric from the song it takes to buy Robb bass and DJ EZ Rock. And Rolling Stone was like, that's appropriation. I was like, no, it's like, it's a quote. It's like, I'm giving props to the old school lyric, just like, but whatever. Everything comes from somewhere. Yeah. We're standing on the shoulders of giants. And you're being told by people who don't make music that it's bad. And that's the ultimate like, fuck, I don't care what you have to say because more, nine times out of 10. Talk to the original creator of some song that got covered and was made different or made their own. They love it. They all love it. Yeah. But you really have to, artists are sensitive and developing some kind of a bit of a thick skin is like a skill that you have to develop in order to not go too crazy. Like as Turnstile was coming up, I was talking to Brendan a lot. And I know that them coming from such a hardcore scene that there's purists that would get mad that, hey, you've got keyboards in now. What's going on? And he had just such a great attitude. And I'm like, man, opinions are going to just vary so widely that you just have to like roll with it and let it go because it is possible that you take it to heart and then you drive yourself crazy. And I've heard stories of people like Googling themselves over and over to see what people are saying about themselves. And that's like, that's like anxiety, mental institution causing if you let, you know, your need for approval take you to that kind of place. And at the end of the day, you guys Turnstile, they'll be here a while. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Another little song on this record called Amber. Turn out to be the biggest one, huh? The one. And like you said earlier, he was like, yeah, I got this other one, I guess. Which is like, that's the Grange ZZ Top. You know, that's like, what's the Peter Criss song? The Ballad. Oh, Beth. It's the Beth, you know, and it's like, yeah, I have this one and it ends up being one of the biggest songs, you know, I would imagine presenting this as a, I also have this. You were surprised. Yeah, I think it was, I mean, I think the true family tree of that song came from Tim making the song Champagne first, which had that the Tiwa guitar. And Tim was actually here today recording some Tiwa. So then when I came up with the Amber thing, it was basically like the son of Champagne. Did you come up with that riff? Yeah. Wow. Does he resent you? I actually, I played it on keyboard. Oh, okay. Does he resent you for having to play that every night? Because that's not, that's one of those smooth, one of those chili pepper riffs where you can't, it's clean and it's kind of, or police, it's kind of a message in a bottle where it's like, oh. There's no gain that can save you. You can't hide behind it. Yeah. You know, I think we all enjoy playing the classics just because we know what they mean to people now. Do they take you into that time too? Yeah, and we're there to be of service. So it's not only about our enjoyment. We're there to facilitate this, the collective experience, the live show. And when I go to a show, I want to hear classics that have meant a ton to me, but you don't want to only do the classics either. So that's why we make a fresh set list every night to be throwing you little bones. Fascinating. I watched a video of your Warped Tour set last year and it's banger, banger, banger, banger, banger, deep cut. Banger, banger, banger, banger. Yeah. That's how you do it. Reward the real ones, you know? Are you asking the rainstorm to take you away from the north? Or like as a... You've got the lyrics all wrong. Okay, please. It's brainstorm. Brainstorm. Take me away from the norm. Please brain, take me into a new place. Oh, now I get it. So I'm asking... You were looking at it from the very... I'm asking the muse to lead me. Yeah. I'm a very nautical. You were talking... I'm nautical in my senses, you know? So I'm on the... Let the rain take you from the north. I'm at sea, you know what I'm gonna say. That's fascinating. Wow. Wow. Layers. So yeah, Amber, number one song. Yeah, I guess I got this one. It's a very weird roadmap of a song because it goes like... It starts with riff and then vamp and then like 16 bars of ad-libbing and then a chorus and then a verse and then a chorus and then like a dub breakdown and then a guitar solo and then another solo and then a bridge and then another verse. Structural madness. Yeah. It's completely outside of the box. So that's why... I don't know. It was a very slow burn. Like it took a long time to get going. And it really hit its peak like a couple years. I think our ticket sales, like as far as attendance, really like around 05 through 07 was... 04 through 07 was... That's when besides Amber was playing a lot and Love Song came in and the whole 51st 8th soundtrack. So it was just a happy accident just like letting things happen. Music video as well for Amber was... I remember seeing it often, often, often. Yeah, it was by the Molloy Brothers who were like surfer guys, are like surfer guys. I think they managed Jack Johnson or something and they were like, we love this song. We're just going to do our thing from making surf videos in Hawaii. But we did it down on a... This like... And those shacks on the beach, basically, there was this really weird little surf community that had been there forever. But the city had finally evicted them and so it was just about to be demolished when we shot that music video. So now it's immortalized. Yeah, you got it. So you mentioned Love Song. Let's get into it. We ought to talk about that. Is this a cover you record for the sake of recording a cover? Or is this just... Not at all. Because Adam Sandler loved the song Amber and then he said, for my movie set in Hawaii with Drew Barrymore, 51st States, I want to do have... The whole movie have the sound of Amber, but I want to do covers of romantic 80s classic alternative songs done in a reggae style. Genius. So, yeah, it was like this cool vision that I have to give him all the credit for. And like I said, me and Tim's band played... We played seven or eight cure songs, but it was the earlier stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, the like in between days and earlier... Pornography, so? Yeah, head on the door. And then, but this was deconstruction that was... I actually wasn't that familiar with Love Song. Disintegration. Disintegration. Yes. And so, but he suggests he was like, you could do a great cover of Love Song. And I was like, okay. And I just... At that point, I had... Let's see, we were on tour with Incubus again and I decided to get my own bus so I could bring my dogs with me and also have a recording studio. Yeah. Yeah. It's alive. Yeah. Like this is how I want to spend my money, is spring for my own bus. And I took out the bunks and at that time to have a decent recording studio, you still need a lot of gear, rack mounts, you know, big Mac and big monitor. Now you just need a universal audio console. Exactly. Exactly. But at the time, so I modified a bus. So I was like... And we were on tour when I got the call about Love Song. And I was like, let me see what I can do. And then we did that. We made the whole Love Song that you hear that was all done on tour. We recorded the drums at a sound check in a club. I think it was the Electric Factory in Philly. Whoa. We played there many times. And then did all the overdubs in the bus. And then he also... I was like, I love this idea. How about Lips Like Sugar, the Echo and the Bunnyman song? How about Stop the World and Melt with You? And he was like, great, great, great. So I ended up producing four more songs for that soundtrack and getting Seal to sing Lips Like Sugar and Jason Maraz to sing Stop the World and Melt with You and Dryden from Ant Farm to sing Friday I Am in Love. And so it was like... And that all happened on this long tour that we were on. Productive tour. All through the bus. Wow. Yes. Wow. So it was like... That was the most time that I've ever been part of the music machine because going to the premiere and 311 was all over that movie. Not just those two songs that I mentioned, but like Rubba Dubb off of Transistor was in the movie in different... So it was a pretty cool time to be in the zeitgeist. Was that your first interaction with Adam Sandler? Yeah. Yeah, again, that guy, Brian Ling, who we went to. Brian Ling had made a lot of cool connections. He was friends with Adam Sandler and he was also friends with Shaq, which got Shaq to be in our video and then Shaq came and performed a song with us at the Weenie Roast right after the Lakers won the championship. What song did you... We did a song that we did with him because he was doing a rap record and he was like, I want to do a rock song. And Ling was like 311, he was your boy, so we made this song called Psycho, which is like a rock song. So we played it live at the Weenie Roast and the place went absolutely apeshit. Unbelievable. I want to play Psycho. That's amazing. Evolver would be next up. What comes to mind from that era for you? Really getting into deep diving on the Beatles, learning tons of Beatles songs, reading books about the Beatles, exploring Abbey Road and Evolver. And just, you know, I only dumb people try and compare themselves to the Beatles, but I was trying to absorb the masters as much as possible during that time. So you'll hear a lot of the harmonies getting bigger. So the ELO kind of, you know, harmonies with like singing the very highest falsetto that you can possibly do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And doing songs like Same Mistake Twice and that had that kind of more crazy vocal production in there. And then this song Creatures for a while off of Evolver. To me, that was like a big, to have a song that rocks that hard that isn't one of your super oldies. That was like a big kind of accomplishment. And that's still like one of the closers that we use. Oh, nice. Yeah, because you mentioned Beatles, ELO and all these advanced new techniques you're learning late into your career. But this song is like heavy, dang-t-dang-t-dang-t. Heavy chorus. Yeah. So these little key changes, these modulations that to me sounded a little beatily, but combined with like a, it's the same tempo as Down. Because Down was probably the song that made people go the most nuts. So instead of da-da-da-da-da-da-da, I was like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It's that. So the intention here is the energy is the energy. Yeah, the energy of it. How do your songwriting goals change and evolve 10 years later, setting out to make? Are you setting out to make a couple more songs that you're psyched to play live or is it just, hey, let's write another killer record? Well, I keep my expectations low because I know that it's just something that I enjoy so much to make music. And whether it becomes as important as our other music, I don't know. And you keep your expectations low because we're coming on our 36th year anniversary. So it's, you know, some artists just say, it's not even worth it. People aren't even checking out our new stuff. But I know that it's something that I enjoy so much and that the band enjoys. And then also to get into, you know, exploring like really, you know, this kind of Americana stuff that I did last year that was just like going into really the dark caves of my psyche to talk about stuff that I didn't really want to talk about. But I knew that it was cathartic for me and also other people had been through similar stuff, whether it was, you know, my brother passing away or, you know, addiction and, you know, different things that I felt like I hadn't talked about yet. So it was a lot of fun for me to make that music. And even if it doesn't really, you know, catch on a lot, it doesn't matter. I just, that's what Rick Rubin's book says is like, you got to have courage to keep doing frequent releases and not, you know, live and die by how they're received, you know, you know, a writer writes. And so, but we always were also performers too. So it's like, you know, a lot of artists at our phase of career might just become, I'm a song and dance man, you know what I mean? I just, I go out and play the oldies and that's a big part of what we do. But then also to keep that creativity going is, you know, I still can get really excited about other people's new music as well as my own and my collaborators in the band. Like, it's all still there. Those are your guys, you know? We, I mean, we listen to stuff that comes out all the time, whether it's from underground music or more mainstream music or whatever, we're constantly checking out new music and going back or revisiting a band and revisiting or seeing their new record, I should say, and finding a song that connects with you. It's the best. Feels so good. So there's no reason to ever stop. The newest Allison Chains record is unbelievable. Like, you're like, you'd never know. Yeah, Jerry's so talented. I just listened to nothing shocking in its entirety today and that just brought me back. I was like, this is so weird and so cool. There was nothing like this before. Jane's Addiction, you know. Beautiful. You did a greatest hits record after this, which pre-streaming is like a huge deal. Like that, this went, this hit number seven on the Billboard 200. And you can just check that out with Playlist now. Everybody's got a greatest hits playlist. But yeah, what's the approach like for that? How involved are you in that? And is this something you care about at the time? Yeah. I mean, we definitely had input on which songs to include. Like the song Beyond the Grey Sky wasn't a hit, but in our world it was. Sure. Because it was very important moment for us to play live to, you know, to talk about, you know, people who we've lost and talk about getting through depression and the story about losing a friend to suicide and so, like, that's on the greatest hits, but it wasn't a greatest hit at all. But so yeah, we definitely had input on there. And then, you know, we did the obligatory two new songs to include. And we worked with David Kahn, who, you know, he had done like Sublime and Sugar Ray and Paul McCartney and some cool people. So I actually learned a ton from him on those. So don't tread on me. We'd be next. Opening song, title track. Is this a live staple now? It should be. Yeah, it hadn't been, but last year we started playing it pretty often. The decision to do that kind of like, you talked about this earlier with you in essays, harmonies, how sometimes it's just there, but then you cross that bridge. There's like that dissonant harmony that you go into. Where it's like the brain doesn't expect you to go there when you're listening to the song. Was that a deliberate thing? I just thought it just came out naturally. We were talking in the car like, no, there's a reason. What a crazy choice. They had to do it this way. Yeah. I remember that we actually had a big fight with our label at that point that led to us parting ways with them because they were like, you don't have a single on this. You guys need to go back into the studio. I think this album is as good as it's going to get. And I think there are some really good songs on there. I understand that it's a little not formulaic and maybe not what you want. And then that song came out and actually tied for number one with a nine inch nails song. So I kind of had the last laugh. Yeah. They were so mad. I don't understand. That we didn't want to shelve it. We were like, we want to get this out in time for summer tour. We think it's a good album. I don't know. Maybe they were right that the record as a whole could have been stronger, but there's some cool songs on there. Yeah, 100%. The state of music by 2005 now. You're living through the Naster Fiasco, Torrance. How hard does that hit 311? Is that something that you and your peers in the industry are all worried about and talking about? I think the sketchy time was a little, yeah, 06, 07. I was definitely downloading stuff. But 2005 I was on. I mean, the problem was they had overcharged so much for music. Like when you're charging $18 for a CD and then kids like, or I can just have a 50 cent blank CD and download these songs. I think people that didn't usually steal were like, it's too expensive. Yeah. I'm just going to. I need my music. I need my music. And also thinking, well, these guys are rock stars. They don't need the money. I need this. So which I understood. And like I said, we had more just focused on the touring world more anyway. And then we made up Lifter with Bob Rock. And that was just like a really cool learning experience for me. And had you heard St. Anger when you hired Bob Rock for Lifter? Or seen some kind of monster? Yeah, definitely saw some kind of monster and was and had been into Metallica black albums. So you as an as an artist and as somebody who worked with Bob Rock or was about to work with Bob Rock, how did some kind of monster resonate with you? Oh, we've never been able to ask that before. It is like one of the most. Ego-less pieces of art ever made, I would say. Yeah, no, I mean, it was really revealing to for them to it was pretty triggering for me to see the tension in those band meetings. And for them to put that all out there was pretty damn courageous. And then Bob would share a lot of the sort of psychological tools that he learned. If I would say that's kind of boring part, he was like, that's that's a very triggering word for you to call somebody's work boring. You know what I mean? Wow. Or if I would say, well, this part right here gets a little boring. He was like, let's try a try a different word from that. And so he helped us with our interpersonal kind of thing. You see, he learned a lot from what's the therapist's name? I forget his name. Yeah, the guy in the sweaters. From that guy, works with the sweaters. 40,000 won. He plays. There's something that's crazy about that documentary. Obviously, we won't talk about it that long, but like they had Hawaiian shirt day in the studio. Never mentioned in the documentary. So you'll have these fights and they're all just wearing Hawaiian gear. No reason. And it's just never once mentioned. That's kind of the craziest. Do you guys have Hawaiian shirt day on Uplift or Universal Pulse? No, that came up over the past decade on Fridays on tour. Oh, really? Oh, fun. We're Hawaiian shirts. There's a song on Universal Pulse called Sunset in July. He can't believe this. I cannot believe this song. And to me, so you mentioned Morris here earlier. Why don't you find out for yourself? Was that subconscious or is that conscious? Or are you just discovering this now? No, I can acknowledge what you're saying. And yeah, he's just got a way with melodies. He's unfortunately the greatest boss on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yes. Yeah. It is what it is. We just talked about it. Maybe not the best guy. Maybe the worst guy. No less than 1,000 bangers. Yeah. So these records with Bob Rock, he is not a sit-back and engineer type producer, right? So did you enjoy that process? Yeah. It was he was a sixth band member. Like we all had our little stations and he had his station with his pedals and his amp and his guitar. And he would be in there with us. And we definitely welcomed it. And he brought so much gear with him, like these weird pedals and had Tim, you know, getting into the whammy pedal, which, you know, like Tom Morello and some others abused. And Tim used on that album. And then we would have keyboard days where we would, he and I spent like three days at the end of the album. We would just go through each song and just add some pads or a shaker or some different. Boing. Pardon me? Boing. Yeah. Boings. Nice. Well, that was a buzz. You got a boing, man. You bleed the boing. Yeah, we're going analog boing now. We got Bob Rock on the hill. That's true. Was this song pre-written before you started working with Bob Rock? Which one? Sunset and Duel. Sunset. Well, you know, because we, Uplifter was our first record with Bob Rock and then Universal Pulse was our second and that was on there. So yeah, it was, we had already worked with him. But then I don't know. What I'm wondering is if that big G was Bob Rock's, you know, his chord progression sensibility or if it was something you had already had. I don't remember. Because this guy, he can't believe a G major. I love a G major. But I think that was a C. No. No. All right. Well. No. Is it G? Is it G? Yeah, but you did. We'll talk about it. C would be too high. Stereolithic and mosaic. I mean, the songs and F. Well. Stereolithic and mosaic. Walk me through them. This is where all the hive, the hive has, has been ground zero since 2000. Well, that's crazy since the hive has not been ground zero since 2001. The hive has been the home of the recordings since 2001 now. How does, how does the process change here? Bob's, Bob's out of the picture here. Yeah. And then we're back with Scotch who did Transistor and has been our live sound guy for a long time. That's cool. Yeah. And we met him on our very first LA recording experience when we started as being Eddie Offords assistant. So he's like, you know, our same age. We've known him for 35 years. And, you know, I think that Universal Pulse is only eight songs and that we kind of started to, there was a little bit of lack of cohesion as far as like where we should be going. So after that, we kind of took a bit of a break and then we got back into like whatever, like the attitude that we had on Transistor, which was like just throw and go and see what happens. And so I think there is a bit of an attitude similarity between Transistor and Stereolithic is getting more into the weirdness. And then following that up with Mosaic where then I felt like that was kind of like our sound system period where we're starting to get a little bit more momentum and break have some breakthroughs of doing these kind of epic songs that were like long songs, we're getting into like the classical having some classical chord changes in there. And I started working with a couple of different guitar teachers and really filling in my knowledge of technique and scales and modes and how Bach made his chord changes and stuff like that. So I don't know, that's some stuff that come to mind, but I'm jumping ahead. We're just growing and growing and growing. That's what it's all about. Voyager, you would put out and then COVID happened. What was that experience like and then how did you use that time off? We're sitting there. Yeah, I guess we are. Yeah, built a studio. And we really, we have a fairly busy touring schedule, but then like so now what are we going to do? So I have to give real props to our road crew because they figure out how to do live streaming and then we had live from the hive sessions and we did a 311 11-day show where we played Transistor in its entirety on March 11th and then like once a month streamed different albums. So as a way to stay connected to our fans and let our, you know, the fans have their own party in front of the couch and dancing around. People needed it. Very resourceful as the band that doomsday prepped for streaming, ironically doomsday puts you in a position where it's like, uh-oh, we can't play. Yeah. All right, we'll figure it out. Yeah. Technology, because if that happened in the 90s, I guess records would be good. Just can't win. So in with in hardcore and punk after COVID, there was this enormous boom and like we're still seeing it to an extent like turnstile just won two Grammys, you know, was, did you notice it the same in 311 world? Was there a big boom in sales and attendance numbers? Well, I would, Well, I'm out of lockdown. I gotta see 311. Yeah. What I, what I know is that there was pent up desire for touring, but every band was doing it. So we had to, like are the normal buses that we use were not available. So we were in like these broke down buses that had like shit that was not working because there was such a crazy demand and like every roadie was busy. And fortunately, we've got a really loyal crew, but it was, it was different per while. And but better or No, not better. There was still just a lot of tension over just in, in the air with the country with people upset about lockdowns and masks and different things like that. So still going. So the residual energy is still flowing hatefully. Full bloom would be your most recent record released by your own company, SKP, which is very cool. I would love to talk about SKP explain that to the world what you've done here. So, so much of what a label used to do has changed. You got to think about the barrier to entry of when we first started a you had to have a recording studio and then you most people you'd hire a producer. There's tape. There's getting that duplicated and then physically getting those to stores and then there's brick and mortar stores. All that is completely different now. You've got, you know, like Billie Eilish never set foot in a regular recording studio until she was already like, you know, everywhere. So the traditional what a label does has totally changed. And so having like a portal where you can get your distribution, but then also to see the different metrics of what's working and what's not working and kind of self service your own music is just we saw an opportunity there. And helping people become major label SKP's SKP. It is escaping. Wow. You just essay it all over. Wow. That's good. God damn. My wife came up with it. She's good. You should marry her. You should build her a studio. Is there anything Nick now? However many years you said 36 years into 311. Is there anything you feel you haven't achieved yet artistically that you would like to? Yeah, like I always find new things that make me curious. That's the best thing artists can do is just follow their curiosity. Absolutely. Last year I was into very personal kind of Americana and you know did a side project. I do have this demo of a song that goes through a lot of different sections like I'm taking that whole journey with through different movements thing kind of further and that excites me. And I'm also kind of fascinated with jazz from the 40s of when you know there was jazz had like hit songs before rock and roll. There was there was a kind of a glory era that I've been getting really into and you know Chet Baker and Billie Holiday and Dinah Washington and Sarah Vaughn and stuff like that that interests me right now. But then I also at the same time like energetic music to like when I exercise I have different playlists for different activities like like a house tempo is good for jumping rope or being on the elliptical and then I have like a 150 bpm playlist that is good for when I'm running. So I've kind of been kicking around the idea of like what if I make music specifically for it because people moving their body in rhythm it releases oxytocin it's that's why you get a high from a great concert it's not just because the music is good it's because of this this shared like energy field that's going with people. It's the same reason why they have a boot camp you you march is because of this the bonding that you get people feel a real high from from rhythmic moving whether it's like dance is the number one best thing that you can do to improve your to like fight depression like it's clinically proven to be better than any prescription medication or anything like that so I know I'm like getting all over the place. No no no great no I see the vision I see what you're saying. My next note here is you're so vascular inject. What is your physical you just mentioned how important movement is for what you do what you preach everything what's your physical regimen like at home and on tour. So I just finished a really good book called Dopamine Nation and she talks about how the avoidance of pain will cause you more pain like you need to experience some discomfort because the homeostasis of the pain and pleasure thing so what I try and do is start my day with with hard things which include a vigorous workout with cardio and strength and then maybe like a cold plunge because like after that I don't have any aches and pains and then I feel like alive and ready to attack the day so seven days week. Pretty much yeah how long what's the playlist for not super long so that's the thing is like people you've got your goals and stuff you want to do during the day and if you like I've found ways that I can get it down to like 25 30 minutes and to get that okay now I'm ready for my day and get that done between 815 and 845 right after the test. Wow what's the do you have like a good 65 BPM heavy weightlifting playlist? A lot of crowbar. A lot of crowbar in there? Yeah I definitely will put on Pantera when I'm ready to like another band that loves helmet. True. Yeah true. Wow. The other thing that obviously very importantly goes along with that is diet. I was just gonna ask yeah what's that how do you what diet needs to be done to be that vascular? It's it's more about the frequency of revving my engine every day. I had you know I was known as the keto guy for a while that's like yeah us too yeah yeah and then um but I 2018 I wouldn't look at a car straight up yeah no I went for like a year without having sugar and or bread and but um I find I have more energy now when I full spectrum and I was needing I know they say you're supposed to get into like fat adapted and stuff and then have lots of energy but it didn't really work for me and I was vegan for a little while but I was just eating so much even though it was like I couldn't get full so now I'm kind of just back to just a traditional diet of a little bit of everything and try and stay away from the bad stuff but it's more about frequently revving your engine. Love it. Now when you partake in the bad stuff tell me what do you like when you get a bad brain so I love a five guys burger with every last thing that they have on there I make my own homemade pizza that is like this just combo with and I make it like thin and crispy yeah with but piled with stuff but like a really good crust to it um you know and it's Girl Scout Cookie season oh my god have you tried the ExplorMores I just had them for the first time last night don't tell me what they're dude it's like Rocky Road in a cookie form yes they are incredible I need the revolution I've been needing to explore less you can you can order them online from like from them and they'll deliver I actually tweet uh I think it was on threads that I put a leak to my daughters if you need some get them through my daughters Girl Scout that's embezzlement I'm Daria it's for a good cause they do good they're cleaning up the beach and doing stuff like that but yeah those are incredible I can't wait to go home and get some more I need no further information on what they're you just went five guys your instinct was five guys there yeah I like it better than in and out really or shake shake I mean it's obviously better than shake shake I like shake shake I like it too but it's too modern dude it's very modern I it's like a club yeah come on man yeah yeah but wow five guys over now what about back in the day 311 in that are that rough in it RV where are you guys stopping I mean I would always make sure there was like cereal to go with us on one of the fattest things in that can eat yeah it's a bulls it's crazy but what about any fast food that like the band collectively was like oh they have that all over all over we got to go I think it was just a little bit of everything we were kind of early to get really like into good sushi like when I had tried sushi for the first time straight out of Omaha in nineteen ninety nineteen eighty eight and they showed me like and now you do the the ginger between the bites and you mix the wasabi like it was saw so new I was like this is incredible most exotic thing yeah totally it gets me every time this day I'm fired up I can't wait to eat some later yeah we're now we're gonna do I want that yeah okay I want that we have one final question for you the people of all been back dying to know I've been dying to know we've we've dropped some Easter eggs throughout the episode but we want to know your four favorite punk slash hardcore records of all time well I really do love uh fugazi 13 songs with waiting room on there um I would say that the the clashes um London calling was for me like when the musicality and the and the punk rock energy you know was just hit this like apex um there's a deep cut on there that I'll wake up with death or glory the chorus I'll wake up with that in my head and it's a week before it goes away yeah can't believe that song yeah um and then either of those bad brains albums of quickness or I against I was one important I would say that that quickness actually has better production because the I don't know there's a little too much from the chroma axon drums on that one too that's right that's right he's a quick I like them both I know but but I like doing this he's more of a quickness he he hates I can sign I'm more of an I against I okay I think I get signed better now he loves quickness he never shuts up okay great answer great answer good answer okay so that's three um and then um fourth one is always the hardest it is more of a deeper cut would be like the descendants like my logo goes to college something from back then that like it was like this is like really cool like this the songwriting it's just it's it's good songwriting even but it's it's like super punk and um I don't know if that that's a great answer yeah absolutely it's a common one yeah yeah is it yeah yeah it is Nick Hexen we did it it's just fantastic what an incredible chat thank you so much for joining us today I told so many stories that I had never told before and never even thought of all for 311 day that's what we want happy 311 day to all happy 311 day to us for getting to share this beautiful experience Nick we cannot thank you enough this is fun it really was if you have any parting words to leave the people with I'm sure they'd love to hear it there sorry we we love our fans we're so grateful to get to do this for yet another year as we're about to turn 36 all right many people don't get to be 36 you know let alone many bands okay so it's a beautiful thing thank you so much thank you all for watching we love you so much see you next week bye this episode is brought to you by mad vintage