Stop Arguing With Narcissists — Do This Instead

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In this episode today, I want to speak to you to give you something that you can use because you and I both know narcissists, they don't lose arguments. That's just not a thing. They don't win them either. They just exhaust them. And in exchange, they exhaust you. So here's how to handle it. Let's go. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcasts. For I'm going to mission to make an excursion. The one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tips and tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask that wherever you're listening, press subscribe, or like, or heart, or follow our comment. It really, really makes a difference not only to me, but also to my family in exchange. My promise is that I'm going to do my best of my ability, make you a better communicator if you subscribe and listen to these episodes. If you're watching right now, you know that I am in the car. Why? Because there's something called snow days in the world. And our town is not equipped for snowy roads, icy roads. And they have continued to cancel school. What was thought going to be just two days ended up being a whole week. And now we've had the weekends Saturday, Sunday, and we think, OK, great. School's going to be back in session. We're going to get back to normal. Psych, they canceled it Monday. So I'm here in the car because the kids are doing their thing. It's been great and also for parents, you know, it's it's cabin fever. It's it's Lord of the flies. It's crazy. It's mayhem. But to that end, I'm excited. Today's podcast is sponsored by Kozy Earth. One of the main reasons I love Kozy Earth so much is that their products are just quality. For those who just listened to the past episode, you know that I actually used my own code to buy some house slippers. That sounds let's not say slippers house, how shoes that sounds better. That feels better for me. And they're awesome. They feel great. So I've been wearing them all week long while I've been in the house with the kids. Not only is there how she's great. All their stuff is the towels, the bed sheets, any sweatshirt, anything cozy. If you are somebody like me that you when you're home in his cold and chill, you just like to be cozy and then to cuddle up, you need to go to cozy earth.com. You will not regret it. You can go to cozy earth.com slash Jefferson used to go Jefferson and get up to 20% off. That's cozy earth.com slash Jefferson. He's like, Oh, Jefferson and get up to 20% off. I know. Let's get going. I hear from a lot of you on Jefferson, I have a narcissistic ex. I have a narcissistic brother or a family member or somebody that I work with. And I really know what to say to them. I don't know how to deal with it. And I know, and you know, that the best piece of advice is if you have the chance of choice, don't, right? Don't talk to them. Don't argue with them. Don't have a conflict with them. But to me, that advice always falls short because there's just times where you're going to have to talk to them. You have to have an interaction with them. It's impossible, if not impractical, to be able to converse with somebody that's in your life, whether at home or at work. Here is three things that I want you to, with precision, focus on. And I want you to use one of them about to tell you to bring the lights and things the next time that you are in a conversation with this person. I want you to remember this. These are three things that are very important that you need to know. Number one, logic does not work on people who are trying to manipulate you. It doesn't work. How many times have you said, no, no, no, no, let me lay this out for you and you go one plus one equals two. Remember, and then two plus two equals four, right? And then we got to four, then we counted four, five, six, seven. You see, and you start explaining your reasoning. And they go, no, no, no, no, this is a math class. I thought we were in social studies. This is physics. What are you talking about? They change the whole dynamic on you. Reason does not work. Logic does not work. Where you think, if I can only just explain it in a way that makes sense. And that's the trap that we fall into. You think, if I can just explain it in a way that makes sense, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not explaining it in a way that's computing within. So let me go back and start from the beginning and start counting the one plus one and start showing my work. You remember some of you may have to go back, where in class, in math class, it wasn't enough for you just to have the right answer. You had to show your work. What does that mean? You had to show right down how you got to the answer. And so many times with people who have narcissistic tendencies and narcissists, they act like they want to see the homework. They want to see the work, but they don't look at it. They don't care. They really don't. They just want you to go through the hoops. Why? Because they want the whole experience to exhaust you. That's really what they're not in it for the actual reason. They're in it for longevity. So what's going to happen is the next time you need to talk to somebody, there's a narcissist. Somebody that makes things so much more difficult than it needs to be. You're going to start to fall into the temptation or trap to all of a sudden explain your reasoning in the most simple way that you can. I know listening, there's going to be some of you nodding your head of, I've been there or I said, no, no, don't you remember we did this? You said this and you try and almost if you could write it out to say, here's, I'm trying to make sense to you. This is not reasonable the way that we're going about this. They don't care. Listen. They don't care. That's not what they're in it for. Logic does not work on people trying to manipulate you. They're not listening to your reasoning. They're listening for leverage and are really two main things that they use as leverage. One is your reasoning, two is your emotions. I say they're listening for your reasoning. In other words, they're listening for what they can use to reframe. When you start over-explaining and in an attempt to reach the same, what you thought is the same destination of coming to have a meeting of the minds. I have some clarity. That's not their goal. Clarity is not their goal. It is weaponized confusion. It is something to have that control. They're not looking for clarity. They're looking for control. When you start laying out your reasoning and saying, if I just show my homework more, the better this is going to go, they're actually just collecting data. They're collecting information. Things that they can use as leverage to make things harder on you. Have you ever tried to explain yourself and move a conversation forward? They go, well, but you didn't say that last time. If you think that, then why didn't you just, and they start just digging daggers? It's what you're saying. You go, hey, I'm trying to move this conversation in a positive place. You keep just cutting my feet out from under me because they want to pinpoint. They want to poke. They want to prod. They're not going at the same place you are. You aren't headed in the same destination. You're not going to the same place. You're looking for clarity. They're looking for confusion. They're looking for control. They're not going to get to the same place. It is a very frustrating feeling. When you go in your head, let me just lay this out for you step by step, and I'm going to, I want this to be a reasonable conversation. Can we just be reasonable here? Instead, they use that same feeling. We talked about one how they use your reasons as leverage. We're now going to talk about how they use your emotions. We're going to pick up on where you're headed of, let's say the word is reasonable. They're going to say, well, you know what? Are you crazy? They're going to start using the fact that you want to be reasonable and then flip that of how unreasonable you are. I can't believe how unreasonable you're being right now. Really, whatever value you're trying to give, they're going to twist it. Maybe they're picking up that you're taking it slow. You say, I'm just going to be kind right now. I'm just going to have some kindness. They're going to flip it on you, use it, leverage it, and say, I feel like you're being so unkind right now. You know, the way you talk to me, do you know how you talk to me right now? Do you think you talk to anybody else like that? Do you think anybody else would tolerate how you treat me right now? And you're thinking, I'm being as nice as I possibly can. Same thing with fairness. All of a sudden, they'll flip it. You're being so unfair. They know that you value these things. They leverage them to upset you in order to have control. All right. So I know we were chomping and chewing on some heavy things right there. I want to refresh that and reframe that and smooth it out. Number one, logic does not work on somebody who's trying to manipulate you. Reason does not work on somebody who's trying to manipulate you. Instead of looking for clarity, like you are, they're looking for control and they do that really in two ways. They're looking to leverage your reasons, your explanations that you're trying to give to put the conversation in the clarity. And so they're trying to leverage your emotions, things that they know that are important to you, that they're picking up on, that they can flip, that's going to hurt you most. Because the more they hurt you, the more they frustrate you, the more they got you exactly where they want. And that's the wheelhouse, that's the playground, all right. Number two, I want you to watch out because arguments with an narcissist turn into endurance tests. What does that mean? It means they will go as long as they need to go to exhaust you. Have you ever been in an argument with somebody that's such a frustrating, horrible personality, toxic personality, and how do you feel afterwards? You are not just drained mentally. You're also drained physically and you're also drained emotionally where you just maybe you just want to stare out the window and sit and silence. Maybe you're driving and you don't even have the radio on because you just need quiet. You just need some kind of rest or maybe you just want to curl up on the couch or embed and you really don't have the energy to do anything enjoyable because they've taken it from you and you've allowed them to take it. And those moments happen when you're in that actual conversation. Not only do I want you to think logic doesn't work, I want you to think shorter the better. This is not a marathon. This is not something where you're trying to qualify to say, let me go to the boss in New York, marathon. And the longer I argue, the better this is going to go. That is wrong thinking. Arguments and conversations with people like this are endurance tests and that here's to think you will lose that test because you have empathy. They can't do empathy. They could care less about your emotions, about your logic. Instead it is how long can I talk until this person gives up how frustrated can I make them until they just walk away. And most of the time it doesn't take us all that long. I am somebody who after a while, it's not that I have a short fuse. It's that I can know quickly if this is going to be a productive conversation or not. And if I can pick up that it's not, I'm going to end that conversation right then. I'm not going to test it. I'm not going to try and see a little bit more if they're willing to work with me and kind of not meeting the middle but have a productive can we move this conversation forward. If I know that they're not going to do that and I'm picking that up then there's no point to continue the conversation. On to take a moment to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast and they're called Mill. I get lots of sponsor requests and this is one that I looked at and thought this would be cool. Let me try it out. Y'all it is changed the game in our kitchen. I'm not kidding. Mill is a composter. Right. And what it does is take any food scraps that you have and turn it into shelf stable grounds like into compost. And let me tell you what this small town country boy has never thought about compost in his life. And I have used this thing. It's incredible. Right. You think, oh, it's going to make a lot of noise. Well, it's just there. It looks like a trash can in your kitchen. Small. It looks nice. 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It has not only been so cool to teach my kids about it and how it happens and why it's important. I think it is also such a great way of making sure that you're just not being wasteful because man, so much of the time you put that kind of stuff into your trash can and it smells and you got to take it out and it's gross. No, it takes away all of that stuff. So it's not just your eggshells or coffee grounds or anything like that. You can put just about any food into it. And it's just pretty incredible. Try mill, risk free for 90 days and get $75 off at mill.com slash Jefferson. And use code Jefferson at checkout that's $75 off at mill.com slash Jefferson and use code Jefferson mill.com slash Jefferson and use code Jefferson. And now let's keep going. I'm going to say something that is going to step on some people's toes and it's, but it's, that's my job. You need to hear it. You're talking too much. You're talking too long. You're in the conversation much longer than the other person deserves. You are giving them too much of your time. Your time is the only thing that we had on those earth and you're giving it to them freely at the cost of your frustration, at the cost of your peace of mind, at the cost of your, not only your mental health, but your physical health and you're giving it. They don't deserve that. An endurance test. Life is too short for that. Even when people who run marathons, they train for it. That is the goal to, to last to endure. It has to do with physical strength. This is something of the mind or people are trying to trip you up every step of the way. It's not a race you're going to win. In fact, it should be a race at all. The next time that you find yourself slipping into a mindset of, let me just say this one more thing because this is the thing that's going to get them. Let me just, if I just put these words out there, this is the phrase, it's really going to hit them in the heart. You're kidding yourself. It's not going to happen. I know what that's like. Think in it, if I word the perfect email or I put in the perfect text or I say the perfect thing and I craft it in a way that I think is really going to hit them in the heart and going to change how they see the scenario. You know how often that's happened with somebody who's a narcissist, never, never. Never. In turn, me trying to explain and give a little bit more has only turned to multiply onto me in pain, tenfold. And I'm guessing that's happening to you too. They're in it for an endurance test and it's a test and race that we're not going to win. So the shorter, the better. Cool. So there's something I want you to remember and write it down if you can. Firm, ins, conversations, reactive, extends them. Firm, ins, reactive, extends. What does that mean? When you're in these conversations with somebody who's exhibiting narcissistic traits and behaviors, the more reactive you are, the longer that conversation is going to go. The more firm you are, the less reactive, the shorter the conversations go because you're not giving them anything to go on. They have less that they can use. That's why when you're trying to offer logic, it's prolonging it, right? You're reacting to what they said and they grab it and twist it. When you talk longer and you want to kind of try and compete with them on this endurance test, they're going to take it and twist it. And it's always going to be you that loses because they don't do any other way. So firm, ins, conversation. Here's what I want you to think in your mind. Periods, not ellipses, not exclamation points, periods. If I'm going to say to you, I'm not going there. Period. Or versus me saying, you know what? This is just like you. Da, da, da. Which one's going to prolong the conversation? Which one is going to be more reactive? It's always the da, da, da. It's me leaving it open. This is just like you. You know what? I come to expect this from you. You are just like your mother. You are just like, you know what? I shouldn't even, this is exactly what I should come to expect for you. That kind of stuff is this only going to fuel their fire. I am pleading with you. Use more periods. Here's a test. Can you use a sentence in less than 10 words? And that'd be your only response to them. Is that something you can try and do? The long paragraphs, forget it. In a text, maybe you're texting up your ex and is over something with the kids and you want to do a big paragraph. That's not, you're much better doing short, choppy, less than 10 words sentences. Back and forth rather than having this whole paragraph, it's only going to inflame because they're going to find a way to twist every single thing that you say. Neutral words, the better. I like to teach neutral words, which are something as easy as good to know. Thanks. Noted. Got it. Can't do anything with those. So I'm going to give you a sentence in my world that has proven to me that a narcissist can't argue with it. And I'm going to give you a story that supports it and how I've used it and why I've used it. So I had a case with opposing attorney once who he was just a snobbyist of the snobs. I mean, he had the fanciest watches you could think he had. I think he had a Lamborghini like it just everything dripped wealth from him, which what does that mean? Really? He's lacking a lot of things on the inside. So he's got to show off on the outside. That's kind of my opinion. Anyway, he was making a case extremely difficult for me to get anything done. But here I am. I'm generally a very even cute. I'm going to talk to you about our case and work together because the more I can work together, the better results can be for for no one in my client, but also their client. And he said something to me. I was like, he was an older guy. And he said, you know, Jefferson, this is exactly the kind of thinking. You know, they're just going to make you regret everything in this case. And I'm just going to make you regret everything. That's what he said. All right. Ten point on my thinking is going to make me regret the whole case and ever knowing him and dealing with him. I'm going to make you regret this. And this is the sentence that I use. Of course, I took a breath, let him get that out. And I said, you know, I'm comfortable where I'm at. Simple as that. I said, I'm comfortable where I'm at. And he just went, oh, well, I mean, you. I mean, that's fine. That's fine. Any hung up, all right? That's what happened. He hung up. And I've used up phrase so many times. I'm comfortable where I'm at. That's the phrase. Let me tell you why it works. And tell you why I think it's going to help you. All right. People, so many of the people that are in a bad state, narcissistic tendencies, behaviors, narcissists, they, they're anything but comfortable. They wish they could be comfortable. And they're not. They don't like them. They act like they lock themselves deep down. They really don't like themselves. There are people that have this such grandiosity about them deep down there. They're really hurting in many ways, but they never know it and never admit to it. They can't lie because everything is that they touch as gold. They can never admit to anything like that. But comfort is not something that they're used to. You think of people who are difficult personalities. Comfort is a very odd word to them. They can't imagine actually being comfortable. Comfortable in what? Their own skin. Comfortable in what they believe. Comfortable in how they talk to people. Comfortable physically. Comfortable in their mind. They're always anxious. They're always having a hard time. They're always wanting to blame somebody else. Always having this victim mentality. When you tell them uncomfortable where I'm at, and it doesn't have to be a narcissist that you're talking to. You can be anybody. They conflict, an argument, a disagreement. You say, how uncomfortable I'm where I'm at. They really can't do anything with it. Although they can do, it's just wish that they were comfortable. But they're not. To me, there hasn't been a single reply that has been worth anything to that response. I'm not saying they can't say anything. Of course, they're going to say words. It's not like they're just going to go quiet. Even the guy that I had, he said, that's fine. Then hung up. I'm saying they can't use that to prolong. They can't use that in their endurance test. They can't use that to extend. Can't use that to control. I'm telling them I'm comfortable where I'm at. Whatever it is, my opinion, my thinking. So often when they try leverage the reasons, like we talked about, when they say, well, if you really thought that, you'd think, well, you know, what you're not seeing is X, Y, and Z, or what about the time you did X and they're trying to twist you. They're trying to move you off center. And if you just repeat, I'm comfortable where I'm at. It's some pretty awesome things happen. You realize all of a sudden it's not just you explaining that you're comfortable. You feel comfortable. I want to take a moment to tell you about ZockDock of anybody listening right now, who has been putting off a doctor's appointment. I have. That's for sure, whether it's the dentist or a dermatologist or wherever I definitely have put off doctor's appointments because who wants to go to a doctor? Well, I'm doing it better this time. And that's where ZockDock comes in. 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You can even score same day appointments. You're putting off those doctor's appointments like me and going to ZockDock.com slash Jefferson to find an instantly book a doctor you'll love today. That is ZOC, D-O-C dot com slash Jefferson, ZockDock.com slash Jefferson. Thanks, ZockDock for sponsoring this message. And now let's keep going. So when you say things, there's not just an effect on the other person. There's an effect on you. When you say I'm comfortable where I'm at, not only are you signaling to them that you're comfortable, you're signaling to yourself that I'm comfortable. You know what's going to happen? All of a sudden you feel more comfortable. And now you're exuding more comfort. And all of a sudden you don't feel as much like you have to prove things that you have to push. You can just be uncomfortable where I'm at. Now I hear you. Yeah, I got it. I'm comfortable where I'm at. Yeah, thank you. I'm comfortable where I'm at. It's like advice that I've given to teenagers before with peer pressure. Somebody tries to pressure you into things and you use the word pressure. Say, I'm not really feeling any pressure to do that. I'm not feeling any pressure. Whenever you say words, sometimes they act like release valves for us. And in that moment when you can use the word comfort and apply it to yourself, you will start to feel more comfortable. And that's a really good thing. All right. What do we learn? Number one, logic does not work with narcissists. Reason does not work. They're trying to leverage your reasons, your explanations, and your emotions. And that only hurts you too. They're in it for endurance. How long can they argue? Shorter is better. Number three, when it all comes down to it, for ends, reactive extends. So unless you say the better, use periods, not ellipses. And if there is one sentence that I can tell you has worked for me and I know it will work for you, is that when you don't really know what to say and they're trying to challenge you, move you off center, trying to change your mind to something or control your mind to something that you know is not true. Center yourself with the phrase, I'm comfortable where I'm at. And when you're more comfortable, you speak with more control and more confidence. And that's what the Jebus Fisher podcast is all about. Also, I want to share some exciting news. And that is that the next conversation workbook is officially out for pre-sale. You can find the links down in the show notes. This is a workbook that I've spent a lot of hours on making sure that it's packed full of practical exercises. So if you enjoyed the next conversation, my book, or if you're listening to our now, and really enjoy the podcast, you're going to love the workbook, something that you can actually put your hands on right in and improve your next conversation. So go get it. All right, you can try that and follow me. AccomiCloud, GPUs for a Genetic AI, bring AI inference in closer to users everywhere. Get started at accomi.com slash GPU.