S3 Ep145: Elizabeth Smart | A Prophet in Prison (Part 4)

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But, you know, it's doing okay. In fairness, Stephanie is always sick. I've been sick since November. It's not my fault. Honestly, in the five years we've been together, I want someone to put a montage of all the episodes where you've been like, I'm a little under the weather. I'm sick. It's because I don't sleep, man. It's because I don't sleep. I would say at least 50 episodes. Guys, sleep is so key. When it comes to your immune system, there's nothing better you can do So why don't you take your advice? Because I can't. I have work to do and files that have been released to look through. Oh, my God. That's been keeping me up for multiple reasons. Those files alone would take you 10 years to go through. I mean, I've been making pretty good headway, actually. You sent me a couple of text messages. There was a couple of text messages I sent you of things we saw in there that I don't think a lot of people have seen. There's stuff I've seen in there that I will never be able to say out loud to you or anyone else, that I will never be able to vocalize out into the world. Okay, so let's dive in. I'm actually really looking forward to talking about this episode because this is the episode where finally movement is made and we've got somebody, two people taken into custody, the two people who have had Elizabeth. So this is where things are going to happen and Elizabeth's going to get to go back home. But before that, a bunch of other stuff has to happen. And so we're going to get right in today. We talked about how in the last episode, Richard Riese had been not arrested for Elizabeth's abduction, arrested for a parole violation that we kind of both agreed was just a strategic way to get him behind bars so they could question him and start searching for his home and his vehicle. And they really did think it was him. The police did. Even when he died in prison, the police still thought that it was him. But there was plenty of things that should have told the police that they could have kept looking and there was other investigative paths to follow. And one of those things that happened at the time when Elizabeth was missing that should have suggested Richard Risi was not the one responsible for Elizabeth's kidnapping happened on July 24th, 2002. So there was a reported attempted break-in at the home of Elizabeth's young cousin, Olivia. and the police said, because they kept a cap on this, they never really talked even how deep it went and how serious this attempted reported break-in was. They just said that there was an attempted break-in and it was the cousin of Elizabeth Smart, but it was not related to Elizabeth's abduction, which is not true. They said it was a copycat. They said it was someone messing around, someone just trying to mess with the family. In fact, it was connected to Elizabeth Smart. So at the camp with Mitchell and Barzee, Elizabeth had to listen to a lot of ranting and raving about all the people who had harmed Mitchell or done him wrong throughout his life. And one day in July, Mitchell was complaining about his mother, Irene, and he mentioned where his mother lived. And Elizabeth perked up. She recognized something from her old life, and she told him that his mother lived in the same neighborhood as her cousin, Olivia, who was about the same age as her. Now, at first, Elizabeth thought she had messed up by talking about her past, because usually if she did that, Mitchell would get really mad and he would say, you're not Elizabeth Smart. Your name is Shershaba or Esther or whatever. That is not your life. That was never your life. This is your life. You don't get to talk about that. He'd get very mad and he would do things to let her know that he was mad. And so she accidentally lets it slip just because she's so excited to hear something about her good times in life. She's like, oh, my cousin lives in that neighborhood. And Mitchell didn't react the way he normally would. So Elizabeth went on talking. She was happy to be able to talk about a happier time. And she talked about how she and Olivia had been close. They played at her house where there was a swing in the front yard and a pear tree. And Mitchell told her, hey, I know the house you're talking about. It's a yellow house, right? And so then the next morning, everyone woke up, Mitchell and Wanda and Elizabeth. And Brian Mitchell told Elizabeth, quote, the Lord has commanded me to go out again. He has commanded me to go and take Olivia to be my next wife. I'm going to go and get her and bring her back here, end quote. So Elizabeth now feels guilty, obviously, because it was not her intention to put a target on her cousin Olivia's back. And now Mitchell's saying, I'm going to go make Olivia my new wife. And Elizabeth knows what that means, that Olivia's going to go through the same things that Elizabeth has gone through. And Elizabeth also is thinking, well, he will be successful in getting her and kidnapping her because he was successful in doing it to me. So Mitchell then began to plan his abduction, and he chose the date of July 24th, which was a state holiday, meaning there would be lots of traffic in the city. There would be parades and chaos all over Salt Lake City. And that morning, Mitchell hiked into the city. He stole some beer from a convenience store, and then he drank it. He then took a bus to Olivia's neighborhood and he hid in his mother's yard until it was the middle of the night, at which point he emerged and he went to Olivia's house. He checked the doors. They were all locked. He checked the windows. He found one that was open just a crack. So the way he had done it at Elizabeth's house, he brought a patio chair over. He leaned it up against the side of the house so he could open the window further and cut the screen. He did all of that. But when he reached his hand through the window, he pushed something off a dresser or a table that was in front of the window. and it crashed to the ground and is shattered. And obviously, lights are turning on in the house. People are running to see what made the noise. And obviously, this is because this is Elizabeth's family, and they're already on edge because of what has just happened to her. And now it's happening at their house. So Mitchell later told Elizabeth that this is when he realized the Lord had not chosen Olivia to be his next wife, and he ran like hell. So understand, the scene at Olivia's house is exactly as it was at Elizabeth's. Elizabeth's. There's a patio chair leaning up against the house. The screen of the window is cut open. And the police are going to say, no, no, no, this is not anything to do with Elizabeth Smart. This is not the same. It's just a copycat. All of this stuff, even though they hadn't released the patio chair information to the public. So how could it be a copycat? But they already had Reese in prison, who they thought for sure was Elizabeth's abductor. So we have a little tunnel vision here, I'd say. I would agree with you. They and also it just shows that they did something. It's not even tunnel vision. I think it's also about reputation. And if dare I say ego, where they were convinced they were right. And anything that would suggest otherwise, they it wasn't just tunnel vision. They deliberately looked the other way or or discredited it because they didn't want to be wrong. Well, they also were like, we have somebody in prison and we've been putting this person through you know i'm saying that's i'm saying they like tunnel vision is one thing right like make no mistake about it tunnel vision can happen to even good investigators where they want to do the right thing but they're so focused on one narrative that they unintentionally miss other things i.e tunnel vision but here so this is like cognitive bias this is something you see you know it's happening and yet you choose to not acknowledge it or see it for what most people would have seen it as, which is, okay, either A, we have a copycat, or B, this is who we're looking for, and that would mean that the guy that's currently in jail right now, he ain't it. Yeah, I mean, it's Elizabeth's cousin, and it's the exact same MO. Right. And you're going to go in the papers and be like, completely unrelated, guys. Yeah, no, I think there's a little bit of trying to protect their own reputation at that point. Yeah, and ignoring it intentionally, maybe for their own well-being. Ignoring it intentionally, definitely. you were being kind by saying tunnel vision. Yeah. So for those first few months at the camp, Elizabeth was very rarely released from her chains. Brian David Mitchell would often leave the camp. He said he was going out for food and supplies and to minister to the public while Wanda and Elizabeth stayed behind. Now, there was one time when Wanda and Mitchell had a big fight. According to Elizabeth, they fought all the time. And we heard this from Wanda's own kids. They said they fought all the time. But according to Elizabeth at the camp, they argued constantly. But this was a really big one. And Wanda actually ran away. She took off down the mountain. So Mitchell was forced to unchain Elizabeth so that they could go and find Wanda. And this makes me think that Mitchell was maybe a little worried that Wanda would be so mad at him that she might go and get somebody and be like, hey, my husband has this girl here. Yeah. It's a valid fear. Yeah. Well, he didn't trust her, right? Right. Whatever you want to say that he married her and cared about her or whatever, he didn't trust her. He didn't trust anybody. That was one of his whole mental health things throughout his life, that he had this paranoia that everybody was out to get him. So this ended up being a turning point because they did find Wanda. She was at one of the lower camps that they'd set up previously. She did not betray Brian David Mitchell. And she was brought back to the camp, but she expressed her unhappiness that Mitchell got to leave every week and go into town and drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes while she and Elizabeth sat there in the elements starving without water and food waiting for him to return. And she told Mitchell she wasn't going to do it anymore. And I think Mitchell's thinking, well, okay, she might actually turn me in and she might turn on me if I don't give her a little bit of what she wants. He realized that she wasn't going to give in and let go of this desire to go into town. So he agreed that all three of them could go down into the city. But first they had to make preparations, and Elizabeth had to scrape off the remnants of the blue nail polish she had on her toenails. Mitchell and Barzi also sewed veils to attach to the sides of Wanda's and Elizabeth's headdresses so that their faces were hidden. And as they walked down the mountain, Brian David Mitchell would take the lead, Elizabeth would be behind him, and then Wanda was behind her, so that they were kind of closing her in. And Elizabeth said that they were never more than just a few feet away from her. There was no chance that she could have escaped. Now, the first time they go down, they saw people on their way down to Salt Lake City. When they were about a mile from the city, a jogger ran by. And then a bit further, someone on a bike passed. And in Elizabeth's mind, she was screaming. And she kept, like, looking at them because all you can really see with her veil on is her eyes. She's looking at them, hoping that they, like, recognize her and be like, you know, She's got these beautiful blue eyes. There's posters of her all over the city. So she's hoping somebody will see this, but they didn't. And in reality, she was way too afraid to make a sound. She thought no one was going to recognize her, all cloaked and veiled up. And in fact, once they got into the city, Elizabeth realized the way that they were dressed made people not want to look at her. She said people acted like they were radioactive and stayed as far away from them as possible. So they look like these kind of religious zealots. They've got, you know, Mitchell's got robes on. He's got this wild beard and long hair. And then Elizabeth and Wanda are all robed up with the veils on their head and the veils on their face. And so she said people actually like them being dressed that way, people not look their way. And she realized this pretty shortly into going into the city. So that day, that first day they go into Salt Lake City, they stopped at a liquor store. Mitchell goes in. He steals alcohol. He's always stealing things. He steals alcohol. And this is what he would do when he'd go down into Salt Lake City. He said he was getting food and stuff, but no, he would just go down, get drunk, smoke cigarettes, do drugs, and then kind of scrounge the garbage for something to bring back to Elizabeth and Wanda. And if he would panhandle and make money in the city, he would buy himself food at a restaurant and then bring them back like dumpster food. So that's what he was doing. So they stop at a liquor store. They steal some alcohol, Mitchell does, and then they went to a park. and Mitchell made up three rum and Cokes and handed one to Elizabeth. And she said this is how they spent the afternoon, hanging out at a park and drinking until Mitchell and Wanda had finished the entire bottle of rum and Elizabeth felt like she was going to be sick. Obviously, she's a 14-year-old girl. She's never had alcohol before. Mormons aren't supposed to have alcohol. They're not even supposed to have caffeine. But Wanda and Mitchell, they like their alcohol. So as it got dark, Mitchell said they were going to go to a house party that a clerk at the convenience store had told him about. And Elizabeth said they walked to this house, they walked into the house, and there's people drinking and smoking and kissing and doing all sorts of things she never could have imagined. So for a few minutes at this point, Mitchell's attention was off Elizabeth as he made himself the center of attention. He kind of got in the middle of the party, he was drinking, and he told the party goers that he was a prophet. But even God ate and drank among the sinners, and he was happy to be amongst the lesser people of the world. And as this is happening and Mitchell's, you know, preaching to the party, Elizabeth recognized the clerk from the convenience store they'd been in earlier. And she said she lifted her veil so that he could see more of her face. And she looked at him and he was studying her face really intently. And she was like, oh, my God, he's going to recognize me. And then all he did was tell her she had beautiful eyes. So, yeah. You might think that someone would immediately recognize her, but you have to understand from where they're coming. They're not expecting to have Elizabeth Smart standing in front of them either. At a house party. Right. And so as much, I'm sure that person regrets that now, but you can't put the blame on them because unless you're actively looking for that person, your guard's going to be down. Like you said, you're at a house party. That's not what you're thinking. Yeah, you're at a house party, and there's some crazy religious prophet guy preaching at the party. You don't think Elizabeth Smart dressed in a veil and robes is going to be with this person. Right. You just think that she's part of the cult or whatever. Yeah, it's really sad, actually. She does this a lot. She does this a lot, just staring at people, hoping they recognize her because she's too afraid to say anything. So then Mitchell forced Elizabeth to drink out of a glass jar that was being passed around the room. He told her it was absinthe and she needed to drink it because it caused hallucinations. I don't think it was absinthe. I've never seen absinthe be served in a glass jar. It sounds more like moonshine or something like that. But either way, very strong, right? Very, very strong sort of alcohol. And Brian David Mitchell kept up his preaching and overconsumption of the alcohol at the party. And then the kids there, they got tired of it. And they're like, get out of here. You're annoying. They pushed them out. And when Wanda suggested they go back to the camp because she was tired, Elizabeth said she was actually relieved, right? This was a very long, bad day. It's like, okay, I get to get out, but now I've realized nobody's going to recognize me. People are actively avoiding looking at me. And these two adults have forced me to drink and go to a house party. I'm tired. We've been walking all day. We've been drinking all day. I feel sick. She said it made her feel so, the alcohol made her feel so drowsy and groggy and just heavy because she's a 14-year-old girl who's never had alcohol before. So Elizabeth's actually relieved when Wanda's like, let me bring you back to the place where we chain you up. And that's how bad it was to be with these people, that she just wanted to get back to the one place she felt familiar. This was so unfamiliar to her, the whole routine they were putting her through that day with the drinking and the house parties, that she was like, yeah, let me just get back to the quiet of my prison camp. So at one point, as they were walking back, Brian David Mitchell laid down in the road and he fell asleep because he was drunk off his ass. And Wanda was getting mad. So she stood there for a while with Elizabeth waiting for him to wake up. And then he wouldn't wake up, so she was, like, kicking him. She's like, come on, get up, you know. And then the sun started to rise, and Wanda got really upset. And she said, get up. You're not acting like a prophet of God. And if you don't get up, I'm going to take Esther, a.k.a. Elizabeth, and leave. And Brian David Mitchell did not get up. He was just passed out on the side of the road like a bum. So Wanda and Elizabeth, they kept walking back to camp. Now, things changed after this. Elizabeth was not tied up to the trees anymore. And Mitchell announced that the Lord had veiled the eyes of the city and the Lord wanted them to be around the people, to walk among them, because the Lord would keep them safe and shield them from danger. So this was Mitchell saying, like, maybe he was also a little surprised that no one had recognized Elizabeth. And then when they had this first trial run, he was like, oh, God must be veiling the people's eyes. And that's why they didn't see you. But question real quick, as you're putting all this out there and you're obviously just relaying to us what Mitchell was saying at the time, what's your analysis on that? Do you believe when he goes into town and nobody recognizes Elizabeth that he actually takes it as a sign that God's saying, hey, you have my permission to do so. This is what I want. This is OK. Or do you think that's Brian David Mitchell saying, I want to go out more. I want to drink more. I don't trust Wanda coming down here alone. So you know what? We're all going to do it together because this is fun. This is what I enjoy doing. I'm getting tired of doing what I'm doing with just Wanda and hanging out with Elizabeth. So God wants this air quotes. God wants this. Do you think he believes that bullshit or is he just putting it in that light so that maybe Wanda and Elizabeth believe it? I think Wanda believed what he was saying and that he was the prophet and all of that. I don't think Brian David Mitchell believed it for a second. I think it's exactly what you said. He wanted to go into the city and drink and have debauchery, and he had been doing it by himself. But now having Elizabeth there was fun for him because he could steal more of her innocence. He could corrupt her further with the alcohol and the house parties. And, you know, he would say things to her like, oh, don't worry, I won't let them pass you around. your mind. You know, he would say things like that to her when they'd be in groups of people, like at these house parties, because they went to a few of them. And he yeah, I think it was just a way to corrupt her further. Like he'd done all the corruption he could at that camp. So now let's bring her into the world and show her how horrible it is. Like I've been telling her expose her to all these horrible elements of it so she can see that the world is bad and sinful. And I'm showing her, the world is sinful. But in that way, it was because he wanted to just corrupt her. This 14 year old girl who had never tasted alcohol, had never seen the things that she was seeing at the parties, like the kissing and the sex and stuff. He wanted to just corrupt her further. I don't think he ever believed that. And this is going to be a point of contention. And we'll talk about it a little bit at the end of this video after he gets arrested, because of course, the prosecution is going to bring in a mental health expert and the defense is going to bring in a mental health expert and the defense's mental health expert is going to be like, no, he really is like he has religious delusions and he's crazy. And the prosecution is going to be like, no, he uses religion as a way to do what he wants to justify his actions. Elizabeth didn't believe that he actually felt that way. No. And I truly I mean, I think what you just laid out is this probably truth to that. But I also think there's a part where Wanda started to voice her discontent with having to stay back at the camp and he realized that the only way for him to continue to go out was going to be to take Wanda with him and Wanda could only go out if Elizabeth was with them they couldn't leave Elizabeth alone at the camp she could escape so he was like oh I think it's okay for us all to hang out now because there's no way you're going out without me and there's no way I'm staying back at the camp with Elizabeth so you know what God has let me know we're safe to all go out. We can all go out. No problems. We're good to go. Yeah. Wanda was like his babysitter. That's what I'm saying. Right. Exactly. Like a babysitter where he's like, I'm sure as hell not watching the kid or even the other parent. Right. Yeah. The other parent when like one of the parents, like usually usually the husband is like, I'm going out with the boys this weekend. I'm going out with the boys. And finally, the wife's like, why do you go out with the boys every weekend? And I'm here with our kids that we both had every single weekend. Like, I want to have fun. Right. And a normal person would be like, oh, we'll get another babysitter. We'll both go out. but they can't get another babysitter. So they're like, well, we'll bring the kid with us. Exactly. And then just the story you described to us where they kind of went out because Wanda was saying, I'm unhappy with having to always stay behind. And Wanda knew he was out there drinking and having fun and not, you know, like preaching to the people and spreading the word of God. Yeah. And so even though they all went out and he quote unquote did it for Wanda, who was the one who was drunk on the ground and who had to be the responsible one in that moment. I say responsible again in air quotes as well, because she's a scumbag as well. Let's make no mistake about it. She's not a victim here. She knew what she was doing. I think everything Wanda did was to reinforce the world that she had created. There was a time where she definitely believed he was holy and was getting visions. Probably by now she realizes, no, he's a scumbag. However, she's got to be in denial because everything, every place they went at that point, her entire life was based on him being an actual prophet. She completely isolated herself from her family and her own children. She gave away everything she owned. She stopped going to church and playing her piano, which was the most precious, passionate thing that she had. And now she lives in the woods with her husband and a little girl that they kidnapped. So in order for her to continue justifying that and not have an absolute mental breakdown, she had to at some point and in some level believe that he still was a prophet. So that's why she's urging him, like, you're not acting like a prophet right now. You're not acting the right way. So she's trying to make him behave in the way that she thinks he should, because that's the reinforcement of, well, I did all of this for him because of what he said. And now I'm seeing the truth, but I can't see the truth because then that's going to make everything that I've done up to this point a lie. And I can't accept that. Well, she could have believed you with Santa Claus. I don't care. Based on what you described to us last episode, she can take a long walk off a short cliff. Yeah, that woman's not right. No, I'm perfectly fine with that. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Every friend group has one person who insists on doing things the hard way. The one still paying for a subscription they forgot about, the one who won't update their phone because it still technically works, and apparently the one still overpaying for wireless in 2026. There's always one, right? There's always one, and Mint Mobile is basically here to rescue that last category. 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That's mintmobile.com slash crimeweekly. There's an upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12-month plan required, $15 a month equivalent, taxes and fees extra. Initial planned term only over 50 gigs may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. Additional terms apply. See MITMobile.com. Okay, we're back. So Elizabeth not chained up anymore at the camp, but of course, Brian David Mitchell made it clear to her that there were rules. And if she did anything, If she broke the rules at all, he would kill her and her entire family. Right. That was always the threat. The the rape, what he was doing to her on a regular daily basis, that was no longer even a threat because it was just going to happen no matter what. But you behave yourself. Do what I want. Don't break the rules. Your family will stay safe. And Elizabeth already knew he can get into my house. You know, he got in my house to get me. He can go back. He's hiking down to the city every day. he can go back, wait till I fall asleep, and I go back and kill my whole family in their beds while they sleep. He can do that. Reasonable concern. Yes. So from then on, the trio made regular trips to Salt Lake City, sometimes even every day, sometimes every few days. They would steal food and alcohol. They would drink. They would attend random parties. She said sometimes Mitchell would panhandle and get some money, and when it wasn't all spent on alcohol or drugs, he would bring them out to eat. This happened a handful of times. And I think a lot of people don't understand how wild this is. A whole nation is searching for a missing 14-year-old girl. Elizabeth Smart's story was huge. It was everywhere, all over the country. And her face is on the television. Her name is everywhere. There's posters of her specifically all over Salt Lake City. And she's walking around downtown repeatedly with only a veil covering part of her face. It feels unbelievable because it violates our instinct about how the world should work. But like you said, most people don't move through public spaces actively comparing strangers to missing persons posters. In Elizabeth's case, she was veiled. She was dressed in robes. She appeared to be voluntarily walking with two adults, and there was no visible struggle. To the world, Elizabeth Smart was a cute blonde girl from an upscale Salt Lake City neighborhood. She wasn't a veiled religious fanatic walking barefoot with street preachers. People would look at them and see a fringe religious family. They saw a trio of individuals. they did not want to engage with. They didn't want to be asked for money or preached at, so they avoided even making eye contact with Elizabeth and her captors. Now get this. Elizabeth, Wanda, and Mitchell were even approached by a homicide detective at the public library, and this guy walked in and he asked Elizabeth to lift her veil so that he could see her face, and this is supported by police reports. I looked it up. It happened in August or September, just a few months after Elizabeth was taken. The detective said he'd gotten a call from an FBI agent with information that someone had seen a girl that they thought might be Elizabeth Smart, but her clothing was covering everything but her eyes. So the detective goes to the library. He said he entered. He observed two women sitting at a table, and he sat next to the younger woman, who he determined to be about 18 years old. He told the women that he was investigating an abduction, but neither of them would speak to him. In the police report, this detective writes, quote, I remember thinking that the women might not speak English, end quote. Even though Elizabeth's eyes are blue and she's clearly, you know, he's like, they might not speak English specifically because of how they were dressed. And remember, this is very just a few years after 9-11. So when people would see others dressed like this, what are they going to think? They're going to think that this is some Middle Eastern religious group or somebody who practices a Middle Eastern religious sort of policy policy of covering a woman's face in public, right? Yeah, obviously not common, especially for, I guess, the Mormon community, right? That's prevalent out there. So this is something that's an outlier, and they're assuming, hey, even though it's not what I'm used to, this must be their thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the detective even said the older woman motioned for a man who was also in the library to come over, and the detective said this man was thin, in his 40s, with a full beard. He didn't look anything like the description of the man who had taken Elizabeth Smart. And the report goes on to state, quote, he told me his name. It was a long Middle Eastern name. He motioned to the females and said they were his wife and a relative. I don't remember what relation. I questioned the man about the younger female I can remember whether he said that she was 17 18 or 19 years old but it confirmed my initial estimation that the female was too old to be Elizabeth Smart I told him that I needed to look at her face. I wanted to see his reaction. He said that it was a strong religious edict that females could never show their faces in public under any circumstances. I pushed him on the issue, but he didn't get defensive at all. He just reiterated his religious objection, end quote. The detective said he didn't push the issue because the girl in the library looked older than Elizabeth. And he said the person who had called in the complaint didn't have any other evidence for calling in the complaint besides the fact that the girl's eyes looked like Elizabeth Smart's eyes. And the detective said he made significant eye contact with the girl and he couldn't make the same connection. He didn't think that her eyes looked like Elizabeth Smart's eyes. And this detective also said that he didn't see any signs of nervousness in the girl. He could see that she was clearly not under any distress. And he wrote in the report, quote, the younger female was right next to me. At one point, I was even positioned between her and the two older persons. At any time, she could have simply taken my arm and she would have been entirely protected from the other two, end quote. So first of all, I don't know how you could look into Elizabeth's eyes and not think that they were similar to her actual eyes. You know, like, I don't know how he could say that. I also don't know why, if you thought that the girl was, if you know Elizabeth Smart's kidnapped, and this guy could be her abductor, why he would tell you that she was 14 years old. You know, he would obviously lie about her age. But the detectives, like this guy said, she was like 17, 18 or 19, which confirmed what I already thought. So obviously, I wasn't suspicious. Of course, most of us would also ask the same question. Why didn't Elizabeth just grab the detective's arm? Why didn't she rip off her veil and yell, it's me, I'm Elizabeth Smart. Well, by that point, Elizabeth had been conditioned through terror. She had been repeatedly raped. She had heard constant threats that her family would be killed. She'd been isolated in the mountains. When someone's terrorized like this consistently, the brain adapts and it stops asking, can I escape? And it starts asking, how do I survive this next minute? So in situations like this, survival becomes compliance. It really does. We often hear about fight or flight, but there's a third response It's called Freeze. So when a predator is close and danger is high, Freeze can be the safest survival strategy. And that's where Elizabeth was at, Freeze. She may have felt there was a chance that the detective wouldn't even believe her or that Mitchell could have smoothly talked his way out of it and convinced the detective that she was lying. And then she would have been left with Mitchell and Wanda and retaliation would have been immediate. Right. And at that point, Elizabeth probably didn't have the greatest trust in men, adult men, to do the right thing or to protect her. and she really couldn't take her chances. And I think that, you know, if we are able to talk to Elizabeth, I want her to kind of explain this because so many people have asked. She was right there. There was a detective. She could have gotten help. And the detective's even saying, you know, she could have just grabbed my arm and I would have immediately helped her. Would you have, though? Because you were believing everything this dude was saying. So she was like, it's me, Elizabeth, smart. And the guy was like, this is my daughter. She's lying. You know, you can't take her because of our religious beliefs. The guy might have been like, all right, give me your address and let me look into this and then I'll come back later. And then Elizabeth would have been left with her captors. We hope that wouldn't happen. And the likelihood is it probably wouldn't have. But still, Elizabeth thinking in her head, I might not be saved at this moment. They might have to do some legal stuff or some police stuff and check into it. They can't just take somebody from their parents. so especially if the people are claiming you know religious exemptions and things because what kind of person says hey i'm a police officer i need to you to lower your veil so i can see your face and when someone's like oh no she can't because of a religion the detective's like okay even though i'm looking for a missing girl i acknowledge that i'm about to play monday morning quarterback a little bit here but i'm still going to do it this is from the detective's own mouth so we have to take him at what he said here. And I just don't get it. You asked basically twice that, you know, to see your face. And from what you're describing, there wasn't a ton of objection put up other than it's a religious etiquette. Right. So why not just insist? I'd like to think in that moment, based on why I'm there, I'm going to dot my eyes and cross my T's. I got the girl sitting right in front of me. You know how I can confirm that that's not Elizabeth Smart looking at her face. I can't confirm it by just her eyes. I can assume. I can speculate. And I'm not even saying that he didn't do what he said he did, where he looked at her eyes. And for whatever reason, based on the photos that he had previously seen of Elizabeth, he didn't think they matched. No problem with that. But you know how you double check your work? You have her pull down their veil. A, I understand your religion. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. See, we're actually here looking for a young girl who was kidnapped, and we think that she may still be around, and we received a report that you guys may know something about it. So just because my bosses will get mad at me if I don't, I'm going to have to insist that she takes down her veil. And at that point, if they still refuse, then at minimum I'm going to bring supervisors in. I'm going to bring other people in, somebody higher up to say, hey, here's the situation. I don't think this is Elizabeth. However, the fact that he's so insistent on me not seeing her face, it's raising some concern for me. I understand that there's a religious side to this and that most of the time their faces need to be covered. But I'm asking them for a very specific reason. And even with their religious beliefs, they should understand where I'm coming from. That obviously law right and wrong supersedes your religious beliefs. As long as we're not impeding on it in a private area, you're out in a public space. We're looking for a missing girl. I need to see your face. and then let my boss make that decision. But maybe the boss also comes and says, hey, I don't know what you're seeing, Derek, but those eyes look pretty similar to me. Yeah, because they are coming off. They're the same eyes. You get what I'm saying, right? Let a second opinion come in and just confirm what you're seeing, what you're believing, and what you think your next approach should be. Again, I know I'm Monday morning quarterbacking here, but I think just taking someone at their word when, as you pointed out, if this is in fact who I'm looking for, the perpetrator is not going to be honest with me. They're not going to tell me that they can take the veil down. They're not going to tell me her accurate age. They're going to make up some ridiculous story. That's the whole point. Yeah. Hello. They're not going to be. You have to assume that if this is the person, if they have anything to do with Elizabeth, they're going to lie to me. And I feel like there was a benefit of the doubt given here where I'm hoping in hindsight, this investigator was really regretful about that decision. And I'm sure I have to imagine that he was. So or even, OK, you can't remove her veil in public. Let's go to the police station. We'll bring in a female detective to do that. That way, everyone's comfortable. No man is seeing her face. We just got to check something. Even a better idea. Let me ask you, sir, in what environment are women allowed to take off the veil? Well, we'd have to be under our own roof. OK, no problem. Where do you live? Right. See what I just did there? Where do you live? I'll take a ride with you but at minimum now I'm starting to get information no man but her husband can see her face oh well unfortunately so no man can okay we'll bring a female detective in we'll bring them in a completely sealed room where no one can see her and we'll have her check I can't let this go we're here to accommodate you where do you live we'll have a female detective respond here now we'll head back to your house we can do it in the privacy of your own home with a female detective help me help you Help me help you. But to just say, eh, all right, no problem, feels like a little bit of laziness to me. Well, once again, do you think there's a little bit of that cognitive bias coming in where they already thought it was Reese? I do. Yeah. I do. Well, yeah, it's probably not Elizabeth because it was Reese. And Reese's a lady. So if this guy's here with this girl, it can't be Elizabeth. But, I mean, even that, if Reese was responsible but somehow, I mean, I guess at that point they thought he had killed Elizabeth. but if Reesey was the kidnapper but had given her off to someone else this little girl that's sitting in front of you could still be Elizabeth you still hadn't found Elizabeth at that point so she could be out there somewhere so again I feel like there was a little bit of laziness but I also think that that conscious bias where you're already thinking you've solved this case Reesey kidnapped Elizabeth more than likely killed her hit her somewhere in the mountains this is a nothing burger that we're looking into here I'm dotting my I's, I'm crossing my T's, but this is just more of a formality to say I did it. And I'm not going to risk having everyone mad at me because I dragged this girl in and insisted. Yeah. Violated their religion. Yep, exactly. You know, boss is going to be mad at me. I'm sure there's a lot of that going on. It's really bad. But of course, this close call, it really just bolstered Mitchell Moore. He took this encounter as proof that he was doing the right thing and that the Lord was protecting him. On the way back up to their mountain camp, Mitchell laughed and just made a whole big joke out of it. He said the Lord had blinded the detective's eyes. All it took was a thin veil to hide his Esther. He told Elizabeth, quote, I am so smart. I am so clever. I told the officer that your husband is the only man who will ever see your face. But the funny thing is, it was your husband who told him that. I stood face to face with a homicide detective. He is trained to look for signs of lying and deception. Yet he believed everything I told him. He looked into my eyes and I convinced him that you were not who they were looking for. I convinced him of that while you were sitting there. God has provided another miracle. And why did he do that? Because no one else will ever see my Esther's face until the Lord has called Hepzibah and my seven wives to testify onto the wicked world. End quote. I can tell you what. When the detective saw this statement, I'm sure he wanted to put his head through a wall because that is embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, you a homicide detective is typically trained to look for signs of deception and lying. But apparently this guy missed those days in training. Yeah. No, this is bad. Yeah, this is bad. This is one where you go. All right. You know what, chief? Here's my gun and badge. Yeah, I'm going to go. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do this for you. I gotcha. Here you go. Now, after this, Mitchell did not let Elizabeth go down into the city. and she and Wanda were made to sit at camp while he took his consistent journeys for food and alcohol. And Elizabeth said she was actually relieved to not be with Mitchell as much for obvious reasons. She was like, this dude's really annoying, man. When I'm with him, it's just constant bolstering and talking and ranting and raving and just like complete, he's just mean all the time, you know. And it was nice to not have to be with him all day. But she also wanted to make it clear that Wanda Barzee herself was no picnic. She was a monster. In her book, Elizabeth said, quote, if he was the devil, then she was his sneering sidekick, end quote. So we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Nothing hits like home cooking. And honestly, this time of year, warm homemade meals just hits different. That's why we love HelloFresh. It makes cooking at home easier night after night. Yeah, there's something about sitting down to a real meal after a long day that just, it resets everything for me. Yeah, especially if you have kids and you're at work all day. You don't want to, like, come home and be like, oh, we're ordering pizza again. Yeah, fast food. I'm not doing it. 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I have been trying to be more health-conscious with my eating, and one thing I think that everyone can attest to is portion control is huge. So getting good food in a relatively reasonable size is important to me because otherwise I just keep loading up the plate. Now, I've said this about HelloFresh from day one. The ingredients really stand out. They are fresh, and they're sustainably sourced seafood, seafood, 100% antibiotic and hormone-free chicken. You can taste the difference. The vegetables are really delicious, ripe. Yeah, they've actually expanded their menu. There's now three times the seafood, but with no upcharge. So more things to choose from, no higher prices. Plus, new grass-fed steak ribeyes. I know you like that. And seasonal produce like pears, apples, and asparagus. It actually feels like real thoughtful food, not just something thrown together. Yeah, we love HelloFresh. The taste, the efficiency, the convenience, it's all there. We've been with them for a very long time. We think you guys will love them. And now is a great time to check it out. All you have to do is go to HelloFresh.com slash Crime Weekly 10 FM to get 10 free meals plus a free Zwilling knife. And by the way, this knife is $144.99 value. And this comes on your third box. The offer is valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as a discount on the first box, new subscribers only, varies by plan. Now, as the weather turned cold, Brian David Mitchell realized that they could not live in the wilderness through the winter. So a decision was made to relocate to somewhere warmer. They took a bus to California. Now, while Elizabeth was away, her little sister, Mary Catherine, had a sudden revelation in October. The Smart family contacted the police on October 13th to tell them that Mary Catherine had remembered the man who had taken Elizabeth, and she remembered that this man's name was Emanuel. According to Mary Catherine, she'd been in her room flipping through the pages of the Guinness Book of World Records, and suddenly the name Emanuel popped into her head. According to Ed Smart, the police did not initially take Mary Catherine's statement very seriously. They still thought that Richard Riese was the kidnapper. The police did some digging, and they found that a bearded man who wore white robes was often seen panhandling at Temple Square, and the LDS Security Center had a few photos of him. And the Smart family looked at the photos, but they didn't recognize the man who was Brian David Mitchell. They didn't recognize him. He didn't look anything like the clean-shaven, well-kept man they had hired to do some work on their house. Now, the police were very much like, we'll look into this, but it's probably nothing. So Ed Smart actually had a forensic sketch artist brought in to work with the family. Ed Smart did this, not the police. And this sketch artist sat down with Ed and Lois and the older boys, but none of the sketches that they came up with looked like the same, basically. So they all looked like different people. And obviously none of them are bearded and things, because that's not how Mitchell looked when he was with the Smart family at their house. Now, eventually, law enforcement did come up with a composite sketch, and they began circulating that through the city's homeless shelters. But they made the decision to not go public with the information about Emmanuel in October or November as Elizabeth's 15th birthday and Thanksgiving passed. They didn't release it in December as everyone prepared to celebrate a Christmas without Elizabeth. They said they felt like releasing another photo might confuse the public, which is ridiculous because at this point, Richard Resey is dead. He's been dead since August. And they had released his photo and they'd been saying it was him. And now months later, even they're like, you know, would releasing another photo be confusing to the public? What? And if they released that photo and if they released the name Emanuel, all the people in downtown Salt Lake City who had had to encounter this crazy person would have called and been like, yeah, we know this guy. But they didn't do that. Now, on December 23rd, John Walsh, host of America's Most Wanted, was interviewed by Larry King on Larry King Live. And my dad was very close with John Walsh from America's Most Wanted back then. And he had called up John and said, you know, Mary Catherine thinks it's this man. we've gone down to the police department we've had this sketch made up but the police don't think it's him and John was just like you just have to do everything that you possibly can if you think there's a chance it's someone else like we've got to go after and it ended up actually being John Walsh going on Larry King live and releasing that sketch that really got the got my captor's face out there and had that not happened I think that my abduction very well could have continued Yeah, right from her mouth right there. I also have a question for you and forgive me because we're four parts in and I have my notes, but I don't write every single detail down because I'm trying to listen to you. When the kidnapping initially happened, we know that Reese had been visiting the property and that's why he became a suspect. He was someone they were looking into. And you had talked about Elizabeth's family bringing Brian Mitchell in as well, you know, trying to help him out as well. And I do wonder at the time, and maybe you mentioned this and it just I missed it. But was he someone who was investigated thoroughly as much as as Reesey? Because no, no, of course not. OK, and I wanted to make sure of that, because just from a just a practical standpoint, just basic, you know, crime 101. When you have a kidnapping like this, you're always going to look inward, specifically at the family. And then once you vet the family and you realize or you determine that they're not involved, you're going to expand that scope a little bit. And you would start with people who have access to that property, who would know who is living at that property, right, and would have an understanding of how to get in, how to get out without causing too much of a disturbance. So you would start to look at workers, people who visited the property for landscaping, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, whatever you might have, right, employees who may have visited the property. You would develop a list of those individuals. They did. Remember that Ed gave them a list of people who had worked at the house, but also a list of people who had toured the house because it was for sale at that time. So there was people coming in to look at the house because it was for sale. So he gave them a list, and according to the police records, they were going through that list. But when they got to Recy and then they realized, oh, the family had this issue with him in the Jeep. and then they had the issue where they thought he stole some jewelry and then they ran his background and saw that he had this extensive criminal background. They kind of started focusing their investigative work on him and they stopped really going through that list. Well, and here's the problem, and that's exactly what happened. So I'm not even disputing that. But here's the issue, right? Until you find Elizabeth, you don't know that for certain. So they shouldn't have stopped there. But that's exactly what they did. You're right. However, in all of these cases that are unsolved at that point, when we develop a list of persons of interest, you not only have to vet them for the time of the occurrence to determine they had an alibi, but you'll have to look into their history before, during, and after. Very simple what I'm saying there. If you have a list of – I couldn't imagine that list would have been too, too long, right? Maybe 20, 30 people. Yeah, it was pretty extensive, actually, because they had a lot of people working at the house. OK, so let's even say 100. I don't know, whatever it might be. You want to start to narrow that list down of people who could actually have been in that area during that time, who maybe you haven't been able to determine a solid alibi. Right. So maybe that list gets down to 20 people. Right. Once you've determined that we can't account for these people's whereabouts during that time, you want to look into their previous criminal history. Maybe there's not a lot there, but you know what else you want to do? as the lead investigator on the case, every year or so, you probably want to go back to that persons of interest list and run through it again and see if any of those individuals have gotten into trouble, have done something out of the ordinary, or maybe dropped off the radar, displayed some behavior where now they're trying to disappear. Because if they had done that, they would have been able to follow Brian Mitchell and see his progression and his evolution and see that maybe he wasn't completely on the up and up and maybe not in the right state of mind and maybe be someone who that when they see him later and he's got this beard and stuff that is someone they recognized because they had been following him all along and they were familiar with his behavior after the incident we're not talking five years later here stephanie yeah but remember he didn't tell the family that his name was brian david mitchell he said his name was emmanuel so what you're saying is them telling that him telling them that his name is Emmanuel they never tracked even if they believed he to be him to be Emmanuel did they ever track him down and speak to him nope because they didn't know they knew his name was that that he had given the smarts the name Emmanuel and they kind of eventually put two and two together that Emmanuel was this person who was on the road and stuff but they could not find him yeah I mean I would love to you know without that point he's living in the mountains they don't know that without criticizing him too much because I don't have all the specifics and I'm sure someone could come on here and maybe make me feel better about the situation. But with how many people they had working this case, someone's job, one investigator's job should have been to track this guy down, no matter how long it took. When Mary Catherine comes forward and she's like, it's a manual. She didn't just say, oh, it's a manual. That's just a name that popped in my head. She said, no, you all the guy who worked at our house. Yeah, that's the guy who worked in our house. Right. So now you have this, okay, now he too would have had an understanding of where the Smart's home was. He would have been exposed to the kids. He should have shot up on the suspect list for them. He should have been vetted to the point where they could say, hey, by the way, we found that guy, Emmanuel, who said he worked here. In fact, his name wasn't Emmanuel. It's Brian David Mitchell. And by the way, at that point, you would say, okay, why is he lying about his name? Now we really got to look into him. And why did the Smart family only take the name Emmanuel and not get an actual name? There should have been more there and it should have been on one of the investigators or a group of investigators to determine who this person was. Track them down and speak with them because obviously they're a person of interest at minimum. They were in the house. They knew the whereabouts. All you have is the name Emanuel. We need to know more about this person to confirm they weren't in the area at the time of the crime. They didn't do that. So they didn't dot all their I's. They didn't cross all their T's. there was an open-ended question there that would ultimately be answered because of other people's actions not their own well all they had was this emmanuel right right and then so then they go and they're like okay emmanuel is this guy who's always panhandling in this area okay now we know that and then they're like well let's circulate the photo through homeless shelters in the area that's pretty much all they did yeah and if they put his his dad that name if they put that name and that picture any picture that name and that picture and said the guy who's known to be panhandling in, you know, Temple Square. Multiple people, people that Brian Mitchell had worked with, people who knew Wanda, the family members of Brian and Wanda, they would have called. And this would have been back in October. Yeah. No, I think it's exactly what you described. And even though you don't have an investigative background, I think you nailed this one. I think there was an initial attempt. But when they got down that list and got to Reese, everyone else kind of melted away. He just looked too good for it for some reason. That was it. I truly believe that's what happened. Well, meanwhile, in California, Brian David Mitchell announced to Wanda and Elizabeth that it was time to take another wife. This happened at the end of November, and Mitchell said the new wife needed to be young and pure, so he was going to visit all the Mormon churches in El Cajon until he found her. And Elizabeth was like, why? We're in Lakeville. Why do you have to go all the way out there? And he said, well, I need to go far because, you know, like we have to figure out where this girl lives so we can take her and then bring her back to this camp. And then if the camp is close to where we take her from, then obviously they're going to find her. So I have to go far. So at that point, Elizabeth and Wanda were both a bit on the worn outside. They were slightly malnourished, to say the least. Mitchell had been going out for longer periods of time where he would get money from people and then spend it on food for himself and alcohol for himself. Mitchell made Wanda help him hide their camp by covering and surrounding it with branches and brush to get it ready for this new wife. And Mitchell would spend weeks planning because he was to go out and get his next wife on January 4th. So once again, he failed at this kidnapping plot. And when he failed, Mitchell returned to the camp and told them that the Lord had communicated it wasn't the right time. He told them he had gone to the house. He found no unlocked doors, but he kept trying. And eventually he found a sliding door in the back that was open. But as he stepped in, he heard the sound of a man snoring, a man sleeping in the very room that Mitchell was attempting to enter through. And he told Wanda and Elizabeth that he knew he would never be able to find his new wife and get past her father. So he knew that God must have another plan for him. And then once again, he ran like hell. And Mitchell told them that this whole plan had failed because Elizabeth and Wanda had been judged by the Lord and they were found to be lacking in their faith. and it wasn't until they made themselves better that the Lord was going to give them the actual opportunity to bring their next wife in. So the following... What a loser. Yeah. What a loser, man. So the following February, as Mitchell's face was being plastered all over the news, he and Wanda were having more of their horrible fights and eventually Mitchell stormed off. But instead of coming back later that night or the next day, he was gone for several days. Wanda and Elizabeth were already low on energy from a lack of food and water. They were basically wasting away during this time. Elizabeth said she was having like hallucinations at some point. And she said they just sat there. They didn't even have the energy to talk or move. Seven days later, Mitchell returned and informed them that he'd been arrested because he'd thrown a brick through the window of a church that he intended on sleeping in. He never gave the police his real name when they arrested him or told him who he was. And eventually he was just released from from jail after telling a judge that, you know, I was an alcoholic and I've fallen off the wagon after 20 years and I'm really sorry. And the judge was like, OK, you can you can go. But he he was arrested and he didn't even give the police his real name, which is crazy to me. They must not have fingerprinted him either. I guess not. I thought it was because of the level of crime. They didn't they didn't print him. I mean, they were probably like, oh, he's like a homeless guy and he doesn't have identification on him. I mean, this is California, too. At this time, they were probably dealing with that regularly. So by March, it was decided that Brian Mitchell, Elizabeth and Wanda needed to go back to Salt Lake City. And this was because they just weren't having any luck in California. Like their panhandling wasn't doing as well because they're not in Utah where people are like giving. You know, their whole religion in Salt Lake City was, you know, help people if you can. But they're in California now and no one's really. They got a little dose of reality. Yeah. They were like, we got to go back to Utah. Not everyone's Utah. We got to go back to the Mormons, man. We can't survive like this. So all it ended up really taking was for that sketch to be released. And then an influx of tips poured into the Salt Lake City Police Department and the FBI. Mitchell's sister, Lisa, called the police and she was like, hey, that sketch, Emmanuel, looks just like my brother, Brian David Mitchell, who decided he was a prophet and went off to start his own life and his own church with his wife, Wanda. Other similar calls from people who had known Mitchell and Wanda came in by the droves. And by mid-February, it was now being reported that this Emmanuel person could be Brian David Mitchell. And everything started to add up. Oh, look at that. Look how that happened. It's almost like they finally figured out who Emmanuel, the guy who was in their home, who only went by her first name, might have something to do with it. Only because John Walsh went rogue and released the sketch and the name. By the way, that's the whole connection with America's Most Wanted. Us doing America's Most Wanted was Elizabeth being on that show because of her connection to John. And I don't want to get too far ahead here, but that's the connection there where they obviously have a very good relationship now. They really do, yeah. Because of what transpired. Yeah. I mean, at that point, John Walsh had really come right from the beginning of going missing. John Walsh, you know, was talking to Ed Smart, talking to the Smart family. He was there for them. He was like, I've been through this. I can help you. He was a great deal of support. And we've been at the award ceremonies, but have you got to meet him yet? No. I'll tell you what. I walked past him once. You and I talk off record a lot. You know, we talk every day. We're friends. But he is exactly the guy you see on TV. He's that guy. You know, some people say, hey, don't meet your heroes. You know, he is that guy. He is that passionate about this type of these types of cases, especially when it involves children and every conversation I've ever had with him on camera, off camera. Same guy through and through. You can tell as a parent now, I can tell definitely there's a part of him that's just cold. And I hate to be like like this, but almost dead in a way where he lost a part of himself when Adam when Adam was killed. but he just driven But he very black and white It right and wrong for him And I sure he a little bit nicer behind closed doors with Callahan Callahan's a great guy. Yeah, you introduced me to Callahan. Callahan's awesome. He had cool shoes on, I remember. Callahan's awesome, and he's a little bit friendlier. And I don't mean John's mean. Personable. More personable. Personable, thank you. That's a better word. But Callahan has, you know, been sheltered a little bit more by John, who took on the burden, who was the adult at the time. Callahan was only, you know, was little. And and so, yes, it's just John and Callahan, that whole family, what they do with NECMEC and America's Most Wanted, truly just great people. And it's unfortunate that John got into that situation because of what he went through with his own son. But, man, he has saved a lot of lives and he's brought a lot of children. And he's helped so many families. Yeah, so many. And now Elizabeth takes that torch up. Right. Yeah. She does the same thing. Now when you see a missing person or a missing child specifically or some sex crime, Elizabeth's there talking to the family. She's helping. She's giving interviews. Yeah. Yeah. No, they're great. And so if you ever wondered about John Walsh and Callahan Walsh and, you know, oh, is it just for TV? Is that what you're looking at is what you get. They are the real deal and they really do care. Every conversation, I actually had dinner with Elizabeth and Callahan, and that's all they were talking about was NECMEC, what they were trying to do in the future. This is their life's purpose. Bingo. It's not just for show. It's definitely not for show, not for ratings, not for money. I don't give a shit about that. So now everybody's putting everything together, right? Oh, everyone's coming out and they're like, oh, Brian David Mitchell, he's an experienced outdoorsman. Him and his wife, Wanda, gave away all their belongings and they lived in a tent in the mountains. You see how that happens? Yeah. You start to fall to breadcrumbs. And by the way, Reesey might have been similar, right? We talked about this, where things might start to line up. And people were calling about Reese to be like, that guy's weird. He's got this golf hat. Yeah. To give this a visual perspective, right? You may have two or three people you're looking at. And let's just let's just pretend there's boxes, right? For all three people, the first five boxes out of 10 may get checked off where they all fit. They all fit the mold. But it's when you get to that sixth and seventh box where maybe it doesn't completely check or maybe it doesn't check at all. And again, for the first five, it all lined up. but that's why you get to check off all 10 because two or three people can fit what you're looking for. But then when you really start to dig deep, it may not work out and that can be discouraging, but that's why investigations are really, they're painful. They're painful and they can be demoralizing because you can spend days, weeks, months, years looking into someone. And at the end of it all, determine that that person's not responsible. The point is not to, to close off those other angles. So when they got Reesey for the first five, maybe it was quicker. They still should have looked at the other ones, because if they had what you just described with Emmanuel, right, a.k.a. Brian David Mitchell, all these other boxes started to get checked off as well. And if they would have continued on him, all 10 would have gotten checked off and he would have been a much stronger suspect than Reesey. But they didn't do that. Well, I want to be I want to say something in fairness to the police. Oh, OK, look at us changing roles. Yeah, it's shocking what their experience was and what most police. experience was with missing children during this time was not, oh, this guy is going to capture this girl, keep her living in the mountains, dress her up in robes and walk around Salt Lake City with her. That was not the norm. It was this person's going to take this child, do what the intention was to take the child and then kill the child. Or they're not going to be in the backyard. Right. And Reese's sort of profile fit better for that. I get it. What happened to Elizabeth Smart is uncommon. This is not usually what happens when children get kidnapped by strangers. We can admit that, right? A hundred percent, which is, by the way, part of the reason we're covering the story, because, again, whether it's just you out there listening or watching or another investigator, we get a lot of cops and detectives who listen to the show. Maybe they're not as familiar with this case. I wasn't I was familiar with the overall synopsis of the case, but not the details. This is something you put in your tool bag. Yeah. For future reference. Yeah. Even though it's not the norm, we now know it happens. And so these are things you've got to be looking for in your own cases when you may be a detective in Central Falls, Rhode Island. Could happen anywhere. Someone could listen to this exact story and try to commit the same crime. That's why you've got to educate yourself. Yeah. I mean, people have done that as well, taking girls and hitting them and kept them bunkers and stuff. So we know that's also still possible. It's just not as likely or as common. No, but that's why we're building this Crime Weekly Encyclopedia. It's another reason people say to us sometimes where they're like, why are you covering this case that, you know, has been covered before? You know, so well, we're building that crime weekly encyclopedia. We're in a perfect world. We're going to cover every case, no matter what case you think of. We're going to have it on our catalog where you can come back and look at it. So it's a reference material. And so, again, just another example of why we do what we do and why we select the cases we select. and as far as the detectives are concerned as you mentioned if we get to talk to Elizabeth and I will say I have been talking with her it looks like it's going to happen these are one of the questions that I'll have for her just as far as her perspective and opinion on the investigators that work the case because she may have a completely different outlook as far as the level they went to and she may be completely fine with it who knows that would be one of the questions I ask for sure yeah and at the end of this episode we're going to ask you guys to give us some questions you would want us to ask Elizabeth if she comes on. Absolutely. So put a pin in that. So, yeah, now we're hearing, oh, Brian David Mitchell, like him and Wanda were living in a tent in the mountains. Oh, Brian David Mitchell, he was clean cut when he met the Smart family. But since then, he grew a beard and grew his hair long and everything was falling into place. But the police were still cautious, though, right? Because they already had kind of. Well, they already arrested a guy. Yeah, they kind of already put their eggs all in one basket. So they told the public, listen, we haven't found Mitchell. And while he's a person of interest, he's not the focus of the kidnapping investigation. Within just a few days after that statement, there was a complete 180. The police released another statement. Okay, Brian David Mitchell is Emmanuel. And we now believe that he's the one who took Elizabeth Smart. I would have loved to have been a fly on that wall. Yeah, well, I mean, it's when they started talking to his family. And then the kids of his previous wife, Debbie, came out and they were like, he, you know, sexually assaulted us. He's a creep with little girls. Like it all started coming on. Then they're like, OK, we see what happened here. Now that the picture was everywhere, now that the name was everywhere, people had started to notice. Thank God. Because as Elizabeth and Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzi are hitchhiking from California back to Utah, they end up in Sandy, Utah, where they're going to walk back up into the mountains. And that's when Alvin and Anita Dickerson called the police on March 12th and said they'd seen a man and two women walking on State Street in Sandy, Utah. The man was wearing a hat with flowers around the rim. One of the women had gray hair and the other woman was wearing a veil. A few minutes after the Dickerson's call, the police received another call from Nancy Montoya. She said she was in the Kinkos in Sandy. And she also saw three people walking on State Street. She said the man looked like Emanuel, the person who Nancy and her husband Rudy had seen on America's Most Wanted. So Nancy asked her husband Rudy, look outside, Rudy. Do you think that man looks like Emanuel? And Rudy was like, yeah, that looks like Emanuel. So they called the police. Now, luckily, when the calls came in, Karen Jones was nearby. She was a Sandy police officer, and she was able to get to that location within minutes. And when she got there, she pulls up, she turns the sirens on. Karen Jones quickly separated Brian from Wanda and Elizabeth. She asked Brian, who are you? He said, my name's Peter Marshall. And these women, this is my wife, Juliet, and my daughter, Augustine. When he was asked to provide identification, Mitchell told Karen Jones, quote, we are messengers of God. We are free of all worldly things, end quote. So another officer responded around that time. He went to talk to Elizabeth. He asked Elizabeth who she was. She responded that her name was Evangeline and that she was traveling with her parents. She was wearing a wig and dark sunglasses as well as her veil. So he asked her if she was Elizabeth Smart. She said, no, they don't believe her. The police don't believe her. So Brian Mitchell was placed under arrest, and the police called Ed Smart and asked him to come immediately to the Sandy police station. When Elizabeth was told that her father was on the way, she began crying. She said she was Elizabeth Smart, and she finally, you know, she realized once she knew, okay, my father's coming. I don't have to trust these men. I trust my father. My father's coming, and now I'm safe. And that's when she finally was like, OK, yes, I am Elizabeth Smart. And the whole reason that Elizabeth was in Sandy was because they were hitchhiking back to the mountains from California. They were on their way back home and it was in Sandy, Utah, where they were spotted. And I think that's absolutely amazing. They're just walking. They don't know. They don't know what's happening on the news. They don't know that Brian Mitchell's been identified already. They don't know any of this. All thanks to our boy, John Walsh. Mm hmm. Yeah. Shout out, John Walsh. OK, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back. A new year always makes me think differently about things, about myself. I start asking questions like, what would actually make me feel lighter this year, more grounded, more steady? And for a lot of us, the honest answer is taking better care of our mental health. Yeah, you tell yourself you're finally going to prioritize it, especially after a tough season, burnout, stress, whatever it was. But then you try to find a therapist who takes your insurance and all of a sudden it feels impossible. Affordable in-network mental health care should not feel that out of reach. You use your insurance for your physical health, it should support your mental health too. That's why we love what RULA is doing. Yeah, RULA is a health care provider group that partners with more than 100 insurance plans. That brings the average cost down to around $15 per session, and depending on your benefits, it could actually even be zero. And that is huge because therapy shouldn't be a burst of January motivation. it should be something sustainable, something you can actually stick with, something that is not impossible to achieve. Rula works with more than 15,000 licensed therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, and they don't just match you with whoever is next available. They take your goals, your background, your preferences, and create a curated list of providers who actually fit what you're trying to work on. There's no wait lists, and appointments can often be available as soon as tomorrow, which is amazing. And Rula checks in throughout your care. So it's not just about starting therapy. It's about continuing it and tracking real progress. So they're going to check in with you. Hey, is your therapist working for you? Yeah, and they support therapy and medication management with carefully screened providers focused on quality care. And I'll just say this right out. We've talked about it before. Stephanie and I have both seeked out professional help for our mental health. This is not something that you should be worried about. This is not something you should be ashamed of. In fact, I would recommend it to everyone, even if you're feeling good. It's always important. So this year, make one change you can actually stick with. Visit Rula.com slash Crime Weekly to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash Crime Weekly. Mental health care that's actually built to last. Okay, we're back. So on March 18th, 2003, Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzi were charged with six felony counts of aggravated kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault, and aggravated burglary. They were both assigned public defenders. So Mitchell was, Brian David Mitchell was going to be interviewed by the police and the FBI several times after his arrest. At this time, he was on no medication. He had not been treated for any psychiatric condition when he was questioned. And you will see throughout the interview, and I can't wait for you to see it, Derek, and see these interrogation tactics and what you think of them. But even when the detectives interviewing Brian Mitchell are hostile, aggressive, demeaning, Brian stays completely calm. He does not lash out. He doesn't become aggravated. They're trying to trigger him. He doesn't allow it to happen. And this is going to come into play because remember, his defense is going to come up with this whole thing. Oh, he's crazy. He's not in control. He, you know, this, this, and that. This is a man who is completely in control. And this is the best indicator of that. I came to do the will of the father. But you're not Jesus Christ. No, I'm not Jesus Christ, but I am his servant. You're his servant. I'm the Lord's servant. And he hath called me, and he's called me out of the world. And so I have no part in the world. So I have no part in those questions or answers that you're seeking about anything other than who I am now. Okay. This girl that was with you, what did you call her? Her name is Shirjashen. How do you spell it? S-H-E-R-E-A-R. How old is she? She, once again, that question... It's very relevant. How old is she? She's 18. What would you believe she's 18? Because the Lord has said she is her. The Lord God Almighty told you that she's 18 years old? Does the answer no question? Yes. Okay. Did you marry her? But you say 18. You say 18. Right. Listen. I'm not. That's not who I am. Emmanuel. Listen. Did you marry her? I didn't marry her. But she's still to me as my wife. She's still to you as your wife. Have you had sexual intercourse with her? Those are very personal, private questions. That's a very relevant question. Do you have sex with her? Yes or no? You told me I could have an attorney present. I am my attorney. You were your own attorney? Presently I am. Okay. Presently I am. I'm defending myself, am I not? Yes, of course. You're not going to be used against me, correct? That's correct, Leithian. Okay. Well, let's just cover the basics, okay? Okay. Did you take Shurajeshub? Shurajeshub, Esther, Isaiah is her name. Shurajeshub, Esther, Isaiah. I'm sorry, Emmanuel, I just can't pronounce that. I'm just going to call her Elizabeth, okay? Shurajeshub, Esther, Isaiah. Esther? Esther. I'll call her Esther. Did you take Esther out of her house? The Lord God delivered her to us. And how did the Lord God deliver her to you? Was that on the street somewhere? Was it at the shelter? Did the Lord God sneak into her bedroom and take her out of her room in the middle of the night and deliver her to you? I mean, this is, I understand, you know, you're trying to, this doesn't make much sense to us. us. So what I was hoping is maybe you could explain it in a way that we can understand it. Well, you want answers that you can't use against me. You know you do. Well, not only that, but understand this. And you say you want to know the truth. Sure we do. But the truth will set you free. It will set all men free. Well, let's get back to Liz and the Smart. Yeah, because this sounds more like a political debate than me. Not political. There's nothing political. There's nothing unpolitical. Well, let me just put There's nothing unpolitical. So, Mara, I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe it's because I grew up outside of Utah, and I'm not familiar with all this, you know, religious stuff. But you need to bring it down to a level so that I can understand it. Because this stuff you're talking about, you know, and how it relates to Elizabeth and how she ended up being taken from her. Let me just say this. For the past nine months, that family has gone through hell. I understand. You do understand that? I understand that very much. I mean, their whole family has been torn apart. And I can tell you that since the day that she's been taken, both Cord, myself, and hundreds of other law enforcement officers have been spending countless hours upon hours trying to find this girl. And the family, I mean, they wake up during the middle of the night and their kid is gone, and they have no idea where she went. They think she's dead. We expected to find a corpse. And so your explanation so far as God delivering her to you makes no sense to me because it doesn't matter what the times. If she, how did, how was when the children of Israel were let into the promised land? Let's keep it out of the Bible. No, there's no other way I can explain it. Sorry. Well, don't mind me if when you start to explain it, it makes no sense to me, but I just cut into it. Okay, well, let me say, you just shared with me how her family suffered. But when God's children become an idolatrous and wicked, they suffered many things. The whole history of mankind, the scriptures, is great suffering. They've become idolatrous and wicked. They've been taken into captivity. They've been torn apart. They've been slain. Many things have happened to the Lord's children when they've been disobedient. I'll be bringing in for a landing because you're talking about stuff again. Okay, here it comes in for a landing. When the children of Israel went into the promised land, they destroyed many, many peoples. And in many cases, they took the daughters captive and just destroyed all the men, women, and children, except the daughters who were virgins. All the boys were destroyed. All the men and women were destroyed. And the only thing they took captive were the virgin daughters. That was the children of Israel when they went into the promised land. In some cities, the Lord commanded them to hold them to play. So where was your promised land located? Well, the whole earth is the promised land for all of us. When the Lord comes in great power and mighty glory and might, he's going to destroy all the wicked and lift up the poor, the sick, and the wicked, and the humble followers of Christ. Lift them up, and they will inherit the earth. This is according to the Gospel and the Scriptures and the teachings of the Lord. Are you saying that because you are a prophet of God... I never said I was a prophet of God. I believe you did. No, I didn't. I said I'm a servant of the Lord. Because the Lord... Isaiah, you're talking all over me here, sir. Please relax. Emmanuel, relax. Are you saying because you're a servant of the Lord that God provided you with a virgin to be your bride? Is that what you're saying? That's a yes or no question, Emmanuel. I didn't say that. You can draw your own conclusions. You said you were talking about the sir, how our family suffered, and you couldn't understand. You couldn't understand why Emmanuel would have to suffer. Emmanuel. I'm saying that the Lord's not suffering. So can we draw the conclusion that because you're a servant of the Lord, God owed you a virgin for what? Absolutely not. You're making your own conclusion. I'm asking you a test. He asked, why did her family have to suffer? And I'm telling you, I have great compassion and love for them. Because they are the parents of my... Oh, horseshit. You took their daughter out of their house at knife point and now you're not even dying. it. You're saying I did that. I'm saying you did it. You're saying I did that. I'm saying that you did it. I'm telling you that the Lord God Almighty delivered her to us. And I'm asking how because I don't believe you. I think you're lying your ass off. Baby, if you have I've never lied about anything. All I've told you is... Then you tell me the truth. How did Elizabeth wind up with you? Tell me the truth right now. By the power of God she was delivered to us. And how did God deliver her to you? By the power of God. How did God get you into the house? How did God get you into the house? By the power of God she was delivered to us. He levitated and he lived to the house? You know, you're not... Brian, this isn't working. Emmanuel. Well, I'll start calling you Emmanuel when you start giving me answers to questions that I think are reasonable because right now I see God delivering her from the house in the house. I've practically given you the honest truth. No, you haven't. Yes, I have. The absolute truth. The honest truth would be you telling me how you got her into your control and where you kept her for the past nine months and what you've done with her for the past five months and not telling me stories about people going into the promised land and killing everybody except for the virgin daughters. I don't want to hear that shit. I'll say that for Sunday when I go to church. You know what? You're ashamed. Down deep inside, you know what you did was wrong. You're ashamed. That's why you won't tell us. That's why you... Prophets do not hide what their actions. They stand up for them and they answer for them. If God told you to do this, then you'd better tell us. And they take responsibility for it too. You're saying that I can't use the scriptures. I'm telling us that you're lying to us. Oh, yes, it is. And you're ashamed of your actions, and you will not explain your actions to us. And Christ did not. Did Christ run from the cops? Did he give false names when he was arrested and approached by the police? Really? Really. When did he ever give a bad name to the police like you did today? When did he ever do that? Christ never did that. He did. Didn't he kind of hand himself over? telling me that our Savior lied to the police? He did not. He did not. He never? He did not. In many instances, he did not give them what they were after. How many times did Christ get pulled over on a DUI? Or get, break into someone else's house? No, there were prophets who were drunk. How many times has Christ gone into a little girl's house and taken her out of her mind during the middle of the night against her will? One of you ever known Christ to pick up a weapon? Is Christ the God? Is he God? I don't know. Of course. All right, then all the things he commanded his people to do in the Bible, Christ did. Did he command anyone to abduct a little girl and have sex with her? I don't believe my New Testament says anything about that. I think this is all about man. I think it's all about you and what you want. You want your virgin. You want to have a young girl to have sex. I know what you're going to accuse me of. Even if you have to look at it. I know what you're going to accuse me of. You want to accuse me of being some diabolical, evil criminal. And I'm the servant of war. Really interesting interview. And the one thing I will say is that Brian Mitchell's no dummy. Very intelligent guy. That's the one thing you can take from this because he is completely in control the entire time and is completely aware of where they're going. So in an interrogation, I'm trying to lead you somewhere where I get you into a corner and there's nowhere for you to go. except tell the truth. And there is a point during that interview where that happens, where basically the detective to the right in the white T-shirt, if you're not watching this on video, I apologize, but there's two investigators in the room. And at one point he says to him, so what you're telling me is, as a servant of God, you were delivered a virgin. That's what you were done. And he pauses because he understands that if he says that, then he's admitting to being part of this crime. So he pauses and says, I didn't say that. You said that. so because he knew even though he's you would think that he's speaking this biblical bullshit and he's completely caught up in it and would just say whatever he feels is the truth as far as in his mind as far as the religion is concerned but when there's traps set up for him during this interrogation where even though they can put it and frame it in a biblical sense he realizes the criminal implications of it backs off exactly why do you think when they said how old is she he said 18. He knew she wasn't 18. Now people say, oh, he's a religious zealot. He was crazy. He was in religious psychosis. No, because then it wouldn't matter if she was 14 or 18 because it was what God told him to do. It wouldn't have mattered how old she was if he was a religious zealot and he didn't know what he was doing. He knows very well. He's not a crazy person. He said she's 18. And also, just you have to take this in the context in which I'm saying it, but I can see how he would be very convincing to someone who wasn't of, you know, high intelligence, someone who just or maybe just was a religious person. He his delivery is it's engaging and full of self-assurance, like confidence. Yeah. Yeah. And he's just very smart, definitely knows the religious side of things, obviously interpreting them completely wrong. And I personally I asked you the question, do you believe that he believes is bullshit Or he's just spewing it to support his behavior. I have now deduced he knows the religion, but he's using it to support his behavior, which he knows is wrong. But he's disguising it as something that serves a higher purpose. If he didn't believe that, then he would be in there right there saying, yes, I went in there and took her because God told me to do it. And I was ordained or I was granted that permission because God told me to. But he won't even say that he went in there. He won't even put him past the threshold of entering the smart home. Does that sound like a religious servant or a lawyer? Yeah, that sounds like somebody who knows the legal framework and is tiptoeing around it. There you go. There's a blend going on there where he's combining his religious beliefs with where the technicalities are in the law before implicating himself and confessing to a crime. Yes. Everything he's saying right now in the biblical sense is she was delivered to me, i.e., I didn't take her, i.e., I didn't have sex with her. He doesn't admit to any of that. He always stops short of it. And as far as the interrogation, because I like to talk about the interrogations, I thought it was good. I thought it was great. I love the part. It's definitely something, it's a Derekism for sure, where I'm like, all right, man, well, don't mind me if I, you know, in the middle of this cut you off because I think it's complete bullshit. Or, all right, Emmanuel, why don't you land the plane? like that's that's the stuff where you know you have to keep there's a there's a i don't know if it's the personality or an approach but there's two sides you can go with this right you can completely play into it and be empathetic to the to the offender and at points you have to do that but then there's also a part where it's a balance you have to let them know hey by the way i'm giving you some rope here but i don't believe your bullshit don't think you're winning here or that i'm buying what you're saying i'm allowing you to just spew your fucking nonsense for now However, I'm completely aware of what's happening here. And at some point, they both kind of interjected and said, yeah, yeah, you took her out of the home. We don't believe you. It's complete bullshit. And you know what you did. You did it at knife point. So I actually like their approach. I don't always love the two-person approach. I thought these guys played well off each other. And it probably wasn't their first rodeo doing that together. So I think that the guy, so if you're looking at it, and Brian Mitchell's, you know, in the middle. White T-shirt guy and like a white T-shirt guy and a black T-shirt guy. The guy on the left is supposed to be like the bad cop. Yeah. And the guy on the right is supposed to be like kind of the understanding guy. And he's he's the guy on the right. You'll see he does have some familiarity with the LDS religion. He is a Mormon. The guy on the left, not from Utah, not a Mormon. No, he doesn't. He's not. He's like, I'll save that stuff for Sunday. It was great. I haven't I have not seen this interrogation before, but at some point, mark my words. Do we have more interrogation footage? Yeah. Yeah. OK. Mark my words at some point. So the dynamic here, the only thing I don't like is they're both across from him. So it creates. Oh, don't worry. It changes. Okay. So, okay. So let me, let me guess. There's a power dynamic right now where there it's me against you. Like that's the representation. It's us against you. And so I see one of the investigators going on that side of the table and, and that's done for psychological. Am I right? Are you laughing? So, yeah, I mean, you're right. You'll see why it's funny that you said that, but like I said, I think on that side of the table to try to be I'm with you I don't know if he goes on the side of the table to say I'm with you but I think that one is supposed to be the good cop one's supposed to be the bad cop but eventually they just are so disgusted by him and frustrated with him that they both end up becoming the bad cop okay well I mean I think they were starting to do at the end of that video but I definitely see someone going on the side of the table and maybe it's a combination of I want to strangle you and you know it's it's I'm trying to I'm trying to get through to you but this is a This would be, this is a visual representation of rage bait before rage bait was a thing. This is gaslighting in a video sense. He's completely calm. He does not, even his body language, he's reclined back. He doesn't like sit forward. He doesn't get aggressive. Oh, he's got a very calming demeanor. Because he's trying to suggest to them, like, I know things that you don't know. Like, this thing you're getting upset about, there's no reason to be upset about it. I'm so calm because I'm like Buddha. You know, like I've reached evolved levels of spirituality and getting upset about these things is so beneath me. I don't even know why you're doing this. This is how he's acting. OK, so we're going to take our last break and we'll be right back because it gets better or worse, depending on how you look at it. OK, Derek, I have to tell you, and, you know, we've traveled together before. You've seen the amount of skincare that I bring with me and how very careful and curated I am about it. I'm picky about my skincare. I don't want 12 steps. I don't want hype, and I definitely don't want to feel like I'm just layering product on top of product, hoping something works. That's why I have been genuinely excited and actually telling everybody outside of Crime Weekly, just in my life, I've been telling everybody about One Skin. What caught my attention first was that it was founded by an all-woman team of longevity scientists. So we got PhDs in stem cell biology and skin regeneration. I love all the science. I love all the research It not just marketing Yeah and I will attest to the fact that Stephanie always gravitates towards brands that actually explain the science because then she feels the need to explain it to you. So I've been very informed about many of Stephanie's brands, including OneSkin. She's all about it. She loves talking about it to me and everybody else around. Exactly. And at the core of OneSkin is their patented OS1 peptide. It's the first ingredient proven to target sentient cells, which are one of the key drivers to visible signs of aging like wrinkles, fine lines, loss of elasticity. 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So for a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code CRIMEWEEKLY at oneskin.co slash CRIMEWEEKLY. Once again, that's 15% off at oneskin.co slash CRIMEWEEKLY with code CRIMEWEEKLY. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show. Tell them CRIMEWEEKLY sent you and I suggest you use this 15% off and definitely get the eye cream. Definitely try it. You will love it. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Okay, we're back. So as you said, at one point, one of the detectives got up and moved to the same side of the table as Brian. But his tactics became more aggressive, more intense, more physically close. At some point, he starts poking Brian with his finger, which, if I would have lost it, I would have been like, poke me one more time, because I had an uncle that would do that when he was talking to you, and it made me want to absolutely snap his whole hand off. It's like, why are you poking me so much? But he's doing it, and Brian, once again, does not react. The real core is, you are not a prophet, and you are not serving Jesus Christ. You are indeed Brian David Mitchell, And you have done a really terrible, terrible thing that you need to get to. You have done something awful. I'll tell you, the both of you, you talk about shame. The great shame that will be upon you both. Hey. For talking this way to the Lord's service. You know, hey. You are not the Lord's service. You know what? You are not the Lord's service. You are not the Lord's service. I tell you. I don't feel shameful in saying it. I don't feel any shame in saying it. I say you will. You know what? You will be great shamed. You are not the worst. If heaven's filled with people like you, I'd be more comfortable in hell. Your story's bullshit. You took that 15-year-old girl out of her room at night point. You are a teenager. I drove you to our canyon. You raped her. You kept her tied up at the campsite. You traveled around the country with her for nine months, telling her that her name was some bullshit sheer job Esther Isaiah crap, saying that she was your wife, sealed unto God. And then when you get caught for it, oh, my God. Then all of a sudden, she's been delivered to you by Christ. And then they gnash their teeth on Christ. Their anger and their accusation against the Lord. They gnash their teeth on Christ. You are not. You're tired of Jesus. You're not the servant of Jesus. You are not. Jesus' servants do not take little girls out of their house. You're a child laborer. And have sex with them. Let's face it. You are Brian David Mitchell, and you are a child molester. A criminal. A criminal who has done criminal acts, who cannot pass off his story by talking about Jesus. You are a fraud. You are a fraud, sir. You're a hypocrite. You are a hypocrite and a fraud, and this is bullshit. You are not a servant of Jesus Christ, and you need to get over that. You can take that little simple smile off your face like you're some, you know, servant of the Lord bullshit and stuff it because we know the truth. The truth is that she went into her bedroom during the middle of the night, held a knife to her throat. And here's another thing Christ probably never did. I don't think he ever threatened to kill children. Suddenly, someone who never read the scriptures knows all about the scriptures. You know what? I went to church enough times to know that I never heard any sermons from my priest saying it. And then Jesus snuck into the bedroom at 2 o'clock in the morning and held a knife to her throat. That's bullshit. Most churches and sermons and leaders seek for popularity, for power, for gain, for popularity, and to set... We're off the subject again. We're off the subject again. You're talking about the church. We're talking about what is this? This is what the churches do. Brian, you're full of shit. You're talking about you. Gain, popularity, set... I don't care about the church right now. I want to be able to explain... Oh, wait a minute. I think we just hit a nerve there. Let's talk about lust of the flesh. The lusts of the flesh are all, all of those things that you set your hearts upon other than Jesus Christ. You know what? My heart's not a pawn screwing a 14-year-old girl. Me neither. I've never wanted to have sex with me. And I never have either, and my heart's not set on me either. No, you did. My heart is not. I did not. You did. I did not. I did not. Did not what? Do what you just said. I did not. Did you get a 14-year-old virgin to your campsite, and you had sex with her against her will? You wouldn't want to show her how to do it, and then you made her do it. And you had an fire up at the camp. What's your accusing me of? I'm accusing you of being a child molester. And your accusation is false. Bullshit. Bullshit. The truth. Say bullshit all you want. We are. And guess what? I can say that, and I'm not going to feel any shame over it. Like you said, I'm going to feel shame. You're lifted up in the pride of your heart. You know what? I'm not going to feel any shame at all. But you're going to feel great shame and great sorrow. No, I don't think so. You know the sorrow I feel? The sorrow I feel is for the smart family. The sorrow I feel is for the smart family and a 14-year-old who was taken out of bed. Bullshit. I have more compassion for that family. Then prove it and tell us the truth. Don't give me this God bullshit. I have more compassion for that family. Bullshit. Then prove it. Tell us the truth. Tell us the truth. Tell us the truth. You haven't told us anything. If you want to show compassion for that family, then you can explain it. This is me telling you that I think you're full of shit. Yeah. And what's that? I love it. I love all of it. I mean, listen, there is, if I'm playing just, you know, trying to be impartial, they got to control their emotions. I understand it. I had said before the break, you want to get up and strangle this person, but you don't want to put them in a position where they come off looking like a victim, right, where there's some type of police overreach here. So I understand and respect the passion. These guys probably have kids themselves and they're laying into them a little bit. But there is a fine line between being good cop, bad cop and overstepping and becoming too passionate to a point where now it's they're under duress. So even if the person does admit to something, the argument could be made that they were intimidated in order to make that confession. So that is something you have to consider. However, putting that aside for a minute, what you see here is someone who is a quote unquote man of God directly lying about what he did, which right there is a consciousness of guilt. right understanding that what he did was wrong when we're talking about sanity right for for a potential crime and potential charge he knows the difference between right and wrong even though he feels quote-unquote compelled by a higher power he knows that what he did from a criminal sense was illegal and is telling these two detectives to their faces directly i did not do what you just accused me of, which was having sex with a 14 year old girl. We know that he did. He knows that he did. Now, if he had said I did, but it wasn't sex in the sense that you would think I did it for this purpose to connect her with whatever it might be, whatever bullshit he wants to put out there, he's denying it emphatically. It did not happen, which we know is false, which tells you that he's completely sane and completely coherent and aware of what he did and that this whole religious thing is a farce. and he's exactly what they described him as. He's a fraud. He's smart, but he's a fraud. So I think it's also interesting, like, once again, the one detective, the first one to go to the side of the table, he's, like, poking him, poking him, and Brian just sort of lightly, like, brushes his finger. He, like, pushes his finger away and then brushes his shirt off. What is this supposed to mean? Like, ew, why did you touch me? Like, don't tell you, like, brushing his shirt off. The detective goes right back to, like, touching him. and I think they, I don't know, do you think it was kind of like, oh, we want to see, is he going to snap? Is he going to get violent? Is he going to try to hit me? Or do you think they were trying to do that? I think they were trying to get him to lash out. I told you guys a story, I think I told you on camera, I can't even remember, we've been together for so long, but I had a guy who was lying about something for multiple hours, and it wasn't until I started accusing him, or I basically said, hey, the people that were dead, they were laughing at you. They were laughing at you, they were making fun of you. They were taking photos of you while you were drunk. And in that moment, after multiple hours of denying any involvement, said, they ain't laughing now, are they? Now, you can blurt out the F-bomb. You guys know what I'm saying there. But it wasn't until that moment where I enraged him that he finally confessed. So I have no problem with what they're doing. But on the other side of that coin, I think that Brian Mitchell is doing the same thing. He's pushing them. He's pushing them and pushing them, trying to enrage them so that they take a swipe at him. So that they swing at him, hurt him, do whatever, because he knows he's being recorded. And because he's aware of what's going on, he could use that as a defense. So I think that's what he's trying to do as well. It's definitely a cat and mouse game. It's a psychological battle and they're both playing it. Yeah. I mean, Brian's playing it a little bit better. Maybe I would. I would actually agree with you. I would actually agree with you. Now, I don't. I'm not. I love the interview. I love the interrogation. I don't have a problem with it so far. They're not getting anywhere. Let's just call it what it is. They're not getting anywhere. It's just a lot of them just, I think, kind of speaking on behalf of law enforcement and the smart family, telling them what they want to tell them. Right. But it's it's a lot of the same stuff. And if you look at Brian David Mitchell, I don't even have to see the rest of the interrogation to know he's never going to confess. He's never going to say outright in this interrogation, at least that he did what they're accusing him of. So I would agree with you that at this point, with the finger touching and the standing up, pounding on the table, leaning over it, this guy's not going to be intimidated by that. I don't think that was a tactic. I think they're generally just like... They're getting frustrated. And that to me, or to anybody, is you're losing. As you just said, you're losing the battle. If you're raising your voice and you're slamming things and you're jumping up, and it's not necessarily a tactic that you think is going to work, well, then you're losing composure and therefore he's winning. And so this is the first interview, right? Like the day he gets arrested, he doesn't even have a lawyer with him yet. And he agreed to talk to them without a lawyer. He was like, I am my lawyer. Yeah, he felt completely comfortable. He was Mirandized and said, nope, I don't need it. He felt completely comfortable knowing he could keep his self in check. He was not going to say anything incriminating. He knew that. He knows how smart he is and he knows the law, right? Remember, he spent all that time in the library reading all these books about everything. He knows exactly what he can and cannot say. He doesn't even need a lawyer at this point. And so he also realizes that this is not going to work. Like me talking is not going to work. So about 75 minutes into the interview, Brian stopped answering questions or saying anything altogether, and he started singing hymns. I need thee. Oh, I need thee. Oh, I know this song to God. I know this song to God. Did you sing this to Elizabeth? No, we sang it in church. I've never ever sang it at a campsite where I had a 14-year-old girl tethered up. Right before he had sex, or right before I raped her? I need... Did you ever sing it before you held a knife to a 14-year-old girl's throat? No, I don't need that knife. Every hour I need... Yeah, you're going to need something. Oh, bless me now, my Savior. Yeah, this is kind of more of the same, right? It's more of the same. The detectives here, if we're just stepping back and being impartial, they're losing the battle here. He's winning. The interview should probably be over at this point. He's got nothing more to offer. And then just going back, if you profiled him at all at this point, you know that's not going to break him. However, just to go back to that previous video we watched, because I think it's important, although the detectives, I guess from a psychological standpoint, are losing, there is something very important in that interview, which I said. Even though he's not confessing to the crime, he's acknowledging the significance and the unlawfulness of the actions, right? So when you're talking about a potential defense, and I don't know the direction this case goes as far as is he going to get up there and claim insanity or whatever. But if that was the intent by by not falling face first into this and completely embracing it and saying, I did this because of someone else telling me to do it. You're losing that fight. You're losing that defense. He's clearly showing that he understands the distinction between right and wrong, which is all you really need here, because you have all the evidence to support that he committed the crime. The part of this interrogation, I think, would be judging his level of mental competence and building a case toward that because you have to assume he's going to go in there and claim some type of crazy defense. So I do think for that purpose, if that's what the intention was, it was successful. But at this point, when he starts singing hymns, there's no point to still being in there. If I'm their supervisor, and it even looks like it might have happened there, Stephanie, in that second interview where there's someone at the door, they might have been saying, hey, wrap this up soon. It's not going anywhere. You're getting hostile. You're losing it a little bit. Reel it back in. So that's probably what happened. And if you heard at the beginning of that clip, the detective in the white shirt starts singing along with him. And you can hear it. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, we sing this in church. So I know this hymn, too. You don't know anything special. And, yeah, I agree. They were trying to continue kind of coaxing him and getting a reaction out of him through the hymns, but that wasn't going to happen. But if you remember, this is what people who knew Brian also said, that whenever a good point was made or somebody had a counterpoint or spoke with logic, he would just start singing hymns and the conversation would completely shut down. And that's what he's trying to do now. He's like, I'm done talking, so this is what I'm going to do. I don't have to have a conversation with you, so this is what I'm going to do. He knows he's not going to convince them, and they should know at this point that they're not going to incentivize him to confess to what they want. They're not going to get him to say the words, I raped Elizabeth Smart. He knows the law. He ain't going to do it. So Brian's singing the hymns, but then I guess he ran out of hymns, so he just stopped saying anything at all, no matter what his interviewer said, to get a reaction out of him. Ryan David Mitchell, homeless, transient, can't keep a job, can't keep a wife, can't keep his dick out of his kid's hands, and, you know, complete loser at everything. But, boy, for that nine months, you were king. You had a 14-year-old girl at your beck and call. But, you know, she didn't come willingly until you had to tie her down, hold a knife to her throat, threaten her little sister. and now this is your chance to take responsibility for your stuff, for your actions. You sit there, you sing church hymns, you quote scripture, shut your eyes. It's pretty powerful. The only problem is you don't seem to know your scriptures as well as you think you do. As well as Gordon. And I've only read the Bible three times in my lifetime. I can't honestly say I only read it when they told me to. You don't know your hymns. You run out of the verses after the second verse. you don't know the words for them. Then you start humming. Then you start humming. Can't answer the truth. You know, the truth is such a simple thing. It never changes. Never changes. So the new move is just keep quiet and sit there with your eyes shut. Pretend that we're not here. You know, you talk about our tactics being bad, yours are worse. Do you think you're the only guy that we've ever talked to in this room? Do you think you're the only pedophile that we've ever had to sit down with and have a long chat with. So we've had to ask them about how many kids they've had sex with, how many children they've forced. No, you're really not that different, you know. You're not that different than anybody else. You're not. Just not. You're not special, Brian. And this bullshit about the Holy Spirit talking to you, commanding you to do this and commanding you to do that, That's just one big ego defense mechanism to cover up the failures of your life. You know, you're just a fraud. And do you think you're seriously going to go to court and sit in front of a jury of your peers and try and say that you are deluded into thinking you were doing the right thing and maybe that will get you off somehow? Too women, too much of a pain, too much nagging. Is that it? You got a little smile on your face when I said that. Women can be tough to live with. Two, we die of estrogen poisoning. Come on, man. You remember the answer to that one. Why'd you go back to Salt Lake City? Come on. Why'd you come back to Salt Lake? Elizabeth doesn't like you. She doesn't like you. She's talking about you right now. Okay? So is your wife, Wanda. You're nothing special. Elizabeth doesn't like you at all. She found you actually rather smelly and disgusting. Yeah, a little bit more of the same, right? The only thing that I take there of value is what we were just talking about. In that interview, that last part there, what did that investigator say? You think you're going to go in front of a jury of your peers and convince them that you were just deluded by these religious beliefs, right? He's acknowledging what I said, which is the purpose of this interview, which is to show an awareness of what he was doing. and the understanding of right and wrong and that this was a criminal act. So if that was the goal, they accomplished it. If their goal was to get him to confess, they're just bouncing their head off a rock wall. It's not going to happen. And at this point, with the rocking of the chair, you know, I'm sure if the investigators had to do it over again, they probably wouldn't have done it. So Derek's talking about if you're listening on audio, towards the end there when he was talking to me, the one detective was like pushing his chair, like, come on, come on. Come on, come on. And pushing his arm in the chair. Yeah. And Brian's completely like Brian's completely disassociated at this point. He's not responding at all. He wants to punch him right in the mouth. There's no doubt about it. I get it. I understand it. I'd want to do the same. There's there's two approaches here. You go at him hard. If it doesn't work, you basically that's it. You they went at him hard. And look what happened. He was open. He was willing to have a conversation. He was quoting scripture. It was a back and forth dialogue. However, when they turned it up a notch and started to put the heat on him, he closed off. When they didn't pacify him right? So when he the one detective was calling him Emmanuel for a little while he gave up on that after a while and he kept calling him Brian, Brian and when Brian realizes okay they're not even really going to play along with me he shut down. It's almost like a child right? If you play along with them for a little bit they'll play ball but as soon as you say hey don't do that anymore what do they do? They go in the corner and they pout. So that's what's happening here He lost the battle. He realizes that anything else he says at this point is going to be used against him in a court of law. And he basically shut down after they said, you raped her. I did not do that. That was his response. I did not do that. And he knows at this point, oh, man, I'm flat out lying. I've lost this battle. There's nothing else I can say. Yeah. I mean, I think he's trying to allude to the fact like what happened was not rape. But see, here's the thing. Not giving anybody ideas, but that would have been the play here. If he's going with an insanity plea, the play would have been to say, you call it rape. I call it love and marriage. I call it uniting with God. And he didn't do that. Yeah. He did not do that. No. Which to me is worse. And maybe he realized that. He does realize. He's like, no, if I admit to this at all, I know I've committed a crime. I know he's 14 and I know I took her from her house. Right. There's multiple things there, including the part that he says she was 18, all that stuff. Right. He's now setting up a defense where he goes, oh, I thought she was 18. Which is a typical child predator. Oh, my God. Right. how many times we heard that. I thought she was, she told me she was 18. And by the way, even if she's 18, she has to consent to it, you asshole. Overall, he realized really quickly, even though the approach was off at some points, they did back him into a corner. They played along with the whole biblical thing. And as soon as he related to them in that sense, okay, so you're saying you're a servant of God and she was relayed to you or she was given to you for that purpose. I didn't say that. You did. Right there, he lost. Right there, he lost. And then when they push further on the whole, the actual, the rape itself, he knows he can't say anything. There's no way to spin that. If he was going with this insanity plea, that would have been the angle. He didn't do it. And now they basically got what they wanted. His silence and his inability to admit to it tells you that he knows exactly what he did and that what he did was wrong. I know I keep saying it, but that's really what it comes down to. all this other stuff as you're playing it it doesn't go anywhere it's just two detectives who are frustrated and they're letting out their emotions and at this point i think they're also hoping like hey if we say the right thing maybe he'll react something yeah yeah that's why it seems like they're trying stuff like oh maybe we'll tell him that elizabeth and wanda hate him and they think he's molly oh maybe we'll tell him he's just couldn't hold a job and couldn't please a woman we'll try that oh maybe we'll tell him that he doesn't really know his hymns that well like we'll see what part of his character yeah like what part of his character and his identity can we trigger him with so it seems like they're trying different like he did that's fair yeah that's fair i mean they were definitely trying different things that would be something that he was self-conscious about i thought him not knowing the second verse of the hymn and humming it i thought maybe that would open him up a little bit maybe get some type of response whether it was no because he doesn't know it so what's his response right right or something just to be like, oh, I do know. I'm just not saying it. Yeah. Something because they're just trying to open. They're trying to reengage with them. They realized at this point he shut off. He's completely just like blocking them out at this point. And he's done. He's closed off completely. They're not going to get any type of response from him. They know that. So they're trying to reinitiate the conversation. But you can see it's it's not going well. So at the end of it all, when the detectives could get nothing further out of him, Brian offered seven words. You hate me, but I forgive you. And then from jail in April, Brian added to his book of Emmanuel. And this is basically going to be his defense said in fancy words. That is what Brian's good at. It says, quote, Emmanuel is accused of coming as a thief in the night, and so I will come as a thief in the night. He is accused of taking by force a virgin daughter of Zion, is accused of humbling a virgin daughter of Zion, and bringing her low in the dust and binding her to him with a cord that could not be broken, accused of subjecting her to his will and all his ways. The Spirit did work upon Shircheba's heart, and she did open the window for Emmanuel to enter her home before she retired to bed on the night she was taken. The Holy Spirit did work on the hearts of Shircheba's earthly parents, and they did invite Emmanuel into their home, for in their spirits they knew Shircheba would be taken by the hand of the Lord for a glorious purpose. Shortly before she was taken, her earthly parents removed the lock from Shershaba's bedroom door and turned the security alarm off the back door of the house, end quote. It goes on to say that Elizabeth got out of her bed and came forth upon hearing the Lord's command in her heart. She followed Emmanuel to the camp and fell into the arms of Wanda with the greatest joy and peace and exultion. He says that on the third day, Elizabeth's family came looking for her in the mountains and called her name, and she sat silent with tears in her eyes, not because she was afraid of Mitchell or Wanda, because she knew if she had called back out, she would have been found, and she didn't want to be. So now Brian's saying, I did go into her house, but it's because she let me. She unlocked the door. Her parents unlocked the door, and they knew I was coming, and they knew she would be taken. So I don't know what kind of defense this is. So now he's kind of in his own writing admitting that, oh, yeah, I did take her. but it was because she wanted to be taken and she knew I was coming and her and her parents were totally on board with this which is weird but yeah that's basically where we're at now and in the next episode we'll go into his mental health defense what the different mental health professionals said about him his trial and uh yeah mental health professionals yeah no it all makes sense this this scripture this writing from him I shouldn't call it a scripture, you know, he ain't no servant of God, but it's an evolution and it's a course correction because of that interrogation, right? He was going to go with the whole, I'm doing this because God compelled me to do it. He realizes in that interview that he acknowledged the legality of what he did by just not responding to it and by denying it directly, realizing now that that's probably not going to work. There's a course correction here where now he's saying, Hey, Yeah, I did it. But this is what happened and this is the reason it happened. They're all in on it. Yeah, he's saying I'm being accused of this. Right. But that's not what happened here. That's not what happened. I don't think that was the original intent. He probably knows, like, okay, the sister saw me, right? Yeah. There's way too much evidence that I did come in and take her. I can't deny that forever. Elizabeth's testimony as well. Yeah, of course. There's a lot there. And so, yeah, this is a course correction. And I think it's a combination of things. But I definitely think that interrogation was successful in one of its missions, which is to prove that this guy is completely aware of what he did. Agreed. Yeah, that's my takeaway. But I think it's also important to hear him talk for ourselves because we've heard other people talk and say, oh, you know, he was very confident. He seemed to know what he was talking about. You can see it. You can see it. I get it now. It doesn't mean I like him, but I can I can I can separate myself from emotion and say, I get it. I can see how he's a compelling speaker. And if you're if you're someone who is, I guess, looking for guidance, he would be able to provide it. And how so many people, by the way, would have said he's completely normal. Like, yeah, was he a religious zealot? Was he really like into stuff? Was he very passionate about religion? Other than that, though, he's completely normal. He doesn't seem to be, you know, out of his mind. He's not unhinged. He's not rambling or raving. He's normal. He does. He seems like a normal guy talking about sports, maybe. Yeah. But he's not. No, he's not. He's a monster for sure. And as Stephanie said in the middle of the episode, I have been talking to Elizabeth. Tentatively, she is going to come on, and we're going to have some conversation about this. I told her we're going to keep it surface level. But if we're in the comments, Stephanie and I are both looking at what you guys are saying on YouTube specifically. If you want to leave a review, put a comment in there. I'm watching those as well. I know Stephanie is as well. you could go over there and leave something. We're going to be writing some questions down that you guys may have. And if Elizabeth is kind enough to grace us with her presence and give us some time to talk about it, we will try to pepper in some of your questions as well. We still have the one more episode that we have to do. This would be after that. And maybe it would just be an interview with just her in that episode. You know, we'll see how it goes, but yeah, it's really going to do it for us. If you guys are listening to this on Friday, we just got through the snowstorm in the Northeast. And if you're watching on Sunday, Hopefully we're not buried anymore and we're out moving around, but we're going to be back next week. Any final words from you, Stephanie, before we wrap it up? No, that's it. I'm going to go home and hunker in and make sure I have enough food and water. Ready to go. Guys, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you next week. Take care. Mmmmm