529: Firebase Kate Was Under Siege, Surrounded, Outgunned. With Capt. Bill "Hawk" Albracht

This is Jocko podcast number 529 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. All that I knew of this war was that America was fighting communists and it was my duty to help my country. At age 21, I believed that I was seven feet tall, bulletproof, invisible when needed, and that Vietnam was to be the greatest adventure I could ever hope for. I had had three years of service, but not a minute in combat. My troops were very young, many still in their teens. Like me, most had enlisted or been drafted straight out of high school. A few had several months of combat under their belts, but even they could not have been prepared for what awaited us in late October, 1969. And so we went more or less happily onto the isolated hilltop called Cate, ignorant of the misaligned forces that controlled our fate, never expecting a bloody five day monsoon of steel and fire. And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Abandoned in Hell written by William Bill Albrake and Marvin Wolfe. And Bill Albrake, call sign, Hawke served as the youngest Green Beret captain in Vietnam where he experienced significant combat, not only at Firebase Cate, but later as a Mike Force leader. He is the recipient of three Silver Stars, five Bronze Stars, several of those with the combat distinguishing the three Purple Hearts and most important, the Combat Infantryman's Badge. And upon leaving the Army, he served 25 years in the Secret Service and is an honor to have him here with us tonight to share some of his stories and lessons learned. Bill, thanks for joining us. Absolutely honored to have you here. Absolutely, this is my honor. I've been following you for some time and the way you interview and how you delve into the subject and get to the heart of the matter as well as the individual, I'm just blown away with and it's like one of the most, one of the most important things I've ever done in my life is sitting here across from you on this table. I'll tell you what, just going through this book, which is incredible and if you're listening right now, just order the book immediately, abandon it in hell. I obviously can only touch on the wave tops of the book, but the book is just absolutely phenomenal. And one of the most incredible things that you do is like almost a mini biography of the guys that were with you. It's a real tribute to their bravery and not only their bravery of the Americans that were with you, but then of the Montyards as well, who served, were incredibly tough fighters and you make sure to pay them their credit as well. And the amount of research that's in this book and the fact that you have the radio transmissions in the back of the book and being a radio man when I was in the SEAL teams, of course I was very interested in reading those things because it provides so much, it provides it's like you're there. When you read some of these transmissions that are going back and forth between you and the guys in the air, it's just phenomenal to read those. But just incredible book and what you and your guys went through at this fire base in the middle of Vietnam. It's like a, and the book has some cool pictures of what the fire base looked like. And as I was reading the book, I'm kind of trying to imagine what it looks like. And then you, and I had a pretty good picture in my mind and then I've opened the, to the, got to the point where the pictures and you can see what the fire base looked like and you can see what ambush Hill looked like and you go, it all kind of comes to life. So the book is phenomenal and it's just, it's just great to have you here to capture some of this stuff and honor the people that served like yourself. So thanks for coming out. I want to say one thing before we get into this. Marvin Jay Wolf. Let me just take it back a step. So I came home from Vietnam in 1970 and yeah, there was nothing wrong with me. And so college and so on. In 2008, and we'll talk about coming home. We'll talk about it. 2008 I sat down and not to write a book, but just to put on paper this battle. And the battle led to the book, led to a documentary and by God, there's even a country song about this thing here. But the guy who was initially the thruster in this whole thing was this kind of Ken Moffitt. But since most tenacious individual I've ever met in my life, I wouldn't want all my money. Okay, let's just put it that way. He started, he said, my God, this is a book. And he went out and he ended up talking to Joe Galloway. And Joe Galloway said, boy, this is up my alley. Wrote the forward. But I have a guy, I'm busy, Marvin J. Wolfe. And Marvin said, yeah, I can do this. This book is a tribute, it's a tribute to the men, but also the writing capability investigative background that Marvin did. Marvin is, this book would not be this book without Marvin Wolfe. He's incredible, written a lot of things too. So I want to give him his homage. He is the best, the absolute best. Having said that, please proceed. And so he was a Vietnam veteran as well. Yes, he was a decorated captain. And yeah, he understood everything. Yeah, that makes a huge difference. I know one of my friends wrote a book about the SEAL teams and the origination of the SEAL teams and where it came from, starting in World War II. And he was a SEAL, his name is Ben Milligan, but just the fact that he had been through hell week, just the fact that he had been in combat, it just gave him a way to tell that story. Even from World War II, Korea, Vietnam, gave him an ability to tell that story from a perspective that he truly, at least understood it more than someone had never served before. And that comes through in this book. Again, it's just, it's an amazing book. The insight is provided. Yeah, yeah, because you've got to know, you got to kind of know what questions to ask. Because somebody will tell you something, but if you've been in combat before, especially, oh, you were in combat in Vietnam, when you say something, you go, oh, what kind of air coverage did you have that night? What was the weather? Because a lot of people, they think, oh, you just call the aircraft. Well, a Vietnam guy will go, what was the weather like? Because if there's bad weather, there's no aircraft. And so all those little tiny questions that he asked that really brought out this incredible story. And part of the story is your story. And just to go to the book a little bit, get a little bit of background on you, you say this, I was born in Rock Island in August, 1948, the third of five children of second generation American farmers. I'm certain that my father, Leander, a welder at John Deere, the giant manufacturer of tractors and farm implements loved me and all his children, but he rarely showed disaffection. Tasseturn, emotionally closed, a compact, muscular, and short fused man, he punched like a prize fighter and relied mostly on his fists to communicate his displeasure with me. As I entered puberty, my beloved mother, Germaine, a sensitive, intelligent woman was diagnosed with depression and hypertension. Like many depressed women of that era, she was severely over-medicated. She was soon bedridden and rarely left her room for days on end. My mom died of a stroke in 1965. My relations with dad, which never had been good, chilled to an icy truce. So that's growing up for you. Yeah. And this over-medication of moms, they were given like moms like opiates and stuff. Valium. Yeah. Like candy, like chicklets. We just give it to them. And the thing was, there was no way that one pharmacy checked with another pharmacy or anything. So I remember getting on my bicycle, going to one pharmacy picking up this, another pharmacy picking up this, another picking up this. And I remember looking, and I didn't understand what these medical names are, but I do remember Valium, and by each was a different doctor. So yeah, she was overdrugged. Jeez. Yeah. And so you had, you're the middle child. Yeah. Right, you got Nancy and Bob were older. And then Don and Mary followed you. So you got five kids running around. You went to Catholic schools. Absolutely. Which may have been the cause of all these kids in the first place. That's true. You worked at a grocery store. You're, and again, the details in this book are awesome. You say this in the book, at this time in my life, academics didn't interest me much. Studying was not my thing at all. Instead, I devoted my high school years to enjoying myself. Soon the nuns had labeled me. I was the boy who would never live up to my potential. Held to such low expectations, I did my best not to disappoint anyone. So you weren't super academically inclined. You're having a good time. No. And what is this, like early 1960s? Yeah, sure. It was like 63, 45, and then six. And I knew that I was going into military. I knew that. So I knew I didn't have, I knew I had to have a high school education. That's all I was shooting for. The most important thing I did in my entire high school career was play varsity football. After that, forget it, it was a ride. So yeah, you're playing varsity football. Fast forward a little bit here. With my best friend, Joe Murphy, I spent a few weeks considering service options. I could enlist for three years in the army or four years in the Marines, Air Force or Navy. I could volunteer for the draft or wait to be drafted, which meant only two years. Joe and I decided that the Marines offered the biggest challenge and the most possibilities for adventure. I idolized my brother, Bob, and he wouldn't hear of me joining the Marines. After completing a four year hitch in the Air Force, instead of returning to Rock Island, he re-upped. Re-enlisted in the army, spent eight weeks in advanced infantry training, then went to jump school and volunteered for special forces. Bob was a paratrooper. In the entire 18 years of my life, I had never even met a paratrooper. So when Bob said, forget about the Marines, I listened. In the Gospel according to brother Bob, special forces was where the action was. He laid it out for us. Enlist in the army, volunteer for airborne infantry, then ask for Vietnam. Boom. Boom, yeah, and I'll see you there. It's funny I had Dick Thompson on, who is a SOG guy in Vietnam. And he says, you know, I volunteered for OCS. I was like, was it hard to get an OCS? He goes, no, you just had to volunteer. He said, I volunteered for special forces. I said, was it hard to volunteer for special forces? He just had to volunteer. He volunteered for SOG. I was like, was it hard to volunteer for SOG? He goes, no, you just volunteered. You know, I forget, you know, like this is the height of Vietnam. So if you're saying, hey, I'm ready to go to Vietnam, they're ready to take you. Yeah. You fast forward. There's a funny story here about, you know, how you, when you tell the guy, you know, hey. Oh, the recruiter. Yeah, the recruiter. Murph and I go down to the, Sergeant Carlos, Rock Island, Illinois. And we graduated in high school in, and oh, Vietnam was heating up like crazy. 66. Well, how can I help you boys? Well, we want to join the army and we want to be airborne infantry and go to Vietnam. And he looked at us like we each had two heads. And he talked to me like there's a camera somewhere. And he looked around and when he finally figured it out, he goes, well, this is your lucky day. I just happened to have two slots, but I don't know if I have any in today. And God knows what I'll get them again. You know, oh, Joe, come on. We got to sign up and off we go. There you go. Look at that recruiter did his job. He saw, he saw some ripe recruits and he got him to sign the paper. October 2nd, 1966, Joe and I took the train to Chicago. You guys go to basic training. You have to take an OCS test and you say this, Joe, who'd earned better high school grades than I did, wanted that kind of responsibility. His score on the officer candidate exam missed the cutoff by one point. I passed by one point. So you get to boot camp and they give you a test. Well, they gave you a series of tests back then and to see if you were worthwhile giving the, first of all, they said, based on the scores, because like earlier, the nuns and priests were correct. I was not applying myself. So I was taking these general intelligence aptitude tests and I was doing quite well. And then they came and said, all right, here, take the OCS test. No, no, Jocko. I thought all Army officers came from West Point. Period the end. I've never heard OCS, never heard ROTC. This could OCS, could have meant Oklahoma Cook School to me. I had no idea what it was, but they said, take it and I took it. Then I passed. And that's it. So you're 18 years old? I am 18 years old, not by much. And then they called us all in, you know, based on like about 220 guys or so, good company. And the captain who was a Vietnam vet called us in, it was like 20 of us, maybe 22 of us. And he goes, all right, you all pass the OCS test. You're all going to OCS. He says, pick your branches, don't get exotic, keeping the combat arms. And I'm going, oh, shit, I don't want to go to OCS. That's not what I signed up for. I don't want to be an officer. And he goes, hey, questions. I raise a hand and he goes, yes, private. Sir, what if you don't want to go to OCS? He goes, uh-huh. So I have a levy. I have a levy of 20 names. And he says, I got 20 here in the past and you're going, any other questions? No, sir. That's wild. That's wild that, and I guess that's just the Vietnam time frame. They just took you high school degree. Yeah, yeah. And it was like, when I graduated in the middle, so I turned 19 mid-August and I was commissioned August 31st of 1967. Damn. Good news? I was getting high school head to buy the beer. So I was like, older. When you go to OCS, is there any, in the infantry officer course, was there any challenges that you had or are you pretty good to go? It was very, very tough physically, okay? But you know, it was in pretty good shape. And then after basic and advanced individual training, I was in better shape. So that never really got me. And the academics were very, very capable. I mean, it's things you had to know as an infantry officer. How to call an artillery, how to map reading, certain amount of math was involved. There wasn't anything overwhelming. So if you studied, you did well. However, the biggest thing that was leadership, showing leadership and so on, they'd, as you well know from Buds, they'd get around you and start screaming at you and make a decision, candidate. And some guys disintegrated. Just disintegrated. Some guys broke down and that's what they were looking for. And that's what they wanted to make sure that you wouldn't, as you well know, you wouldn't be doing this in combat when you're supposed to be in charge. And people are screaming at you, what do we do? You shouldn't have that question shooting to come up because you already done it. So there was a lot of harassment, a lot of harassment until you became a senior candidate and then you were given out the harassment. It was a good program. And you guys knew, I mean, you had to know that you're just going to Vietnam. Oh yes, absolutely. That's the attitude. So I can't even imagine the amount of attentiveness you had like learning to call for fire and learning the comms plans and learning the weapons systems. You guys must have been, is it naive of me to think that you guys were extremely focused knowing that you were going to Nam? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, the first thing you look for when I instructed, because it was infantry, I'll see us. Benning school for boys, right? And the first thing you look for when instructor got up, was a combat instruments badge, the rifle with the wreath and the blue back, the blue badge of courage. First thing you look for. And when they spoke, you listened. And not to say we didn't listen to the other ones, but you listened to them harder and better. But I want to add one thing here and this is, so it was like the first week of officer candidate school, week one, and they run us over there and we get in the infantry hall and we out our pens and papers and we're all ready to go and this guy got up there and he says, this is your first class on leadership. So I'm going to teach you everything you ever need to know about leadership here, today, and now. Now this is 1967, March. So it's called the three M's of leadership, the mission, the men and me. He says, number one, you will accomplish the mission at all costs. Number two, once the mission is accomplished, you will take care of your men because without your men, you would not have been able to accomplish that mission. Number three, at a distant third, me. Accolades, promotions, anything comes your way and you've done the other two, take it. And Jaco, I got to tell you that simple, and I know you know it too, I have led my life that way. All my life from that day forward, I've led it on the principle of the three M's of leadership and it has never let me down. I know you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, well, that's good advice. Getting that day one. So you finish the officer of your course, you go to airborne school. Yeah, volunteer. Volunteer, yeah. Jumped out of the towers and everything. I was lucky enough that when I went through Navy training, we went to the Army for airborne school. So I got to go down there to Fort Benning and see the black hats and whatnot and get my little taste in the Army. I just love the seals and the force recon Marines. I love putting them through. So then it's off to the, how hard was it to get to Q-course? Same thing, like, oh, very hard. Very hard, hard to get in because we had a lot of SF guys who were getting assigned to Smoke Bomb Hill, to the Special Forces detachment that were there and they only had so many slots. I think there was, oh God, I don't know, maybe 125 or so per class, four classes a year. So I have, this is the way my life goes. And there was a big waiting line to get in. Well, my two best friends in OCS and then SF, stateside, Lex Crane and Ed Balzley, we got out and they're in New Yorkers. They're going home after jump school. I said, now I'm gonna go to Bragg. I'll see you there. So I walked in, I checked into the CQ and he goes, hey lieutenant, I said, yes major. He goes, so you got assigned Special Forces? Yeah, he goes, listen, we just had a guy, just had a guy drop out of the Special Forces officers of course, could you attend, start attend tomorrow? So you say me, start calling around. He goes, I said, yes sir, boom, there I am. So I show up, I got in. And it was, I tell ya, physically, it was very, very demanding physically, as you know, spec ops is always demanding physically. And but I was in, oh my God, I was in such shape at 19. Mentally, wow, it was tough. It was college level and it was really, really hard. Now I wasn't at the bottom of the class, but I could see it from where I was. Had your brother given you any heads up about the Q course or anything? His was totally the enlisted, he was a calm man. And it was totally different. We did all the little jobs of this and that, but ours was intelligence and operations, planning, leadership, et cetera, et cetera. So ours was pretty much different. And ours was only three months long where he was in school for like a year and a half or something that seemed like. Had to learn that Morris Code if you. Had to learn that. I don't even think they do that anymore. I forget, I was lucky, I guess I'm old enough that I had to learn Morris Code. I forget how many groups a minute I did, but boy that was torture for some guys. You have a cool thing about Q course in here, you say I was the only student just out of OCS. Most of my classmates had served a year more in various infantry units and very few, if any, lacked at least some exposure to post-secondary education. But time in a college classroom doesn't always prepare an officer for the challenge of high risk, high stress, unconventional warfare. I recall a particular lieutenant who was brilliant in class but could not operate in the field. He was reassigned to the 82nd Airborne a few days before he would have graduated. By then I had realized that special forces was where I wanted to be as long as I was in uniform. There was nothing about it that I didn't like. I'd found a home, a real home with brothers for whom I would die. Yes. Seeing that they weed guys out like this guy, you know, I'm sure he's a patriotic guy, I'm sure he's a good guy, but he just couldn't get it done in the field. Tell you what, he screwed up the curve. My God, he was blown out of the water on these tests. You know the thing, okay, the C141 is going so many knots and you have six door bundles and they weigh so much and the LZ, how big does the LZ have to be based? He'd ripped those things out and I'm like, oh my God, this is bad. You know. So yeah, but it was kind of sad, but it was showed how, it was literally the day before we graduated, he was in there and they called him in and they came back in, gathered and says, where are you going? He says, 82nd Airborne, because this guy could not find his ass with both hands in a fly slide in the field. He was horrible. So therefore, off he goes. So you get done and of course you put in to go to Vietnam. And your brother's over there at this time? Yes, he is. Gosh. And for some reason, you get assigned to the 46th Special Forces Company in Thailand. I know. Maybe because Bob was, probably because Bob was there in the same unit I would be going to. So they looked and said, like the brothers, the Sullivan brothers in World War II, they might have looked at you and said, hey, we don't want to have two guys, brothers engaged in combat at Vietnam with Special Forces at the same time. You would like to think that, but that's pretty much what I think too. So I went to Thailand for a year. And how disappointed were you when you got orders to Thailand? Very. I trained and trained and trained to go to Vietnam. And they got, that's all the training focus. That's where it vectored into Vietnam and what to do. And now I'd been trained for two years and now I go someplace else. Now I taught, I taught the Royal Thai Army and they had a lot of returning, they had a lot of Vietnam veterans, SF guys coming over there, Green Berets. And I went down to, when I was an executive officer down in Southern Thailand, Thailand down by, it was called Trang. And it was only 13 Americans there, our team of 12 Special Forces and one CIA operative. And then we were at the Malaysian border. And we trained them down there in the Queens National Forest. So I'm thinking I shouldn't be done yet. So that's what a year long billet that you do that for? Yes, one year. And then you're basically, time you're served, you're served your time. Two years as an officer. And you have that opportunity to get out and you say in the book here, a month before I was due for discharge, I told our personnel officer that I'd stick around for that extra year, but only if I could serve it in a Special Forces unit in Vietnam. He gave me a funny look. The personnel officer smiled. That my, this my friend is your lucky day. My dream had to become real. I was headed for combat with the Special Forces. So there you go. Say you, you, you're like a recruiter's dream and a personnel assignment officer's dream. Yeah, I was like, yeah, yeah, I know. I've heard this before. Go on. So you stand for another year. Is that what it is? I did. I stood for one more year. Some guys went indefinite. I didn't want to do that. I mean, the handwriting's on the wall. I mean, I knew that when, that we had lots and lots of company grade officers with no college. And when the risk came, reduction in force started coming, they were the first to go. And I knew that. I mean, you know, Ray Charles could see that coming, okay? So I just said one year, one year will do. Yeah. You say arrived in Vietnam August 25th, 1969. And of course you get tasked with a headquarters job. And, you know, there's a thing called the mic force, which give us a quick brief on what a mic force is. Certainly. I didn't get tasked with an administrative job out the top, so to speak. First you go to the Hontree Island for two weeks. It's combat orientation course. Pretty good. And when I sat down with the deputy commander, he said, what do you want to go with young captain? And I said, I want to go to the two core because Vietnam was broken in I-corn amounts up by the DMZ, two core central hounds, three core and then four cores of Delta. I said, I wanted to go to two core. That's where Bob had been. And I want to be with the mobile strike force. Now there's special ops. Now there's a distinction in special ops in Vietnam. There's the SOG guys, a special operations group we've talked about in the interview. John Stryker, Meyer, Tilton. I mean, those guys are just half nuts. It's not completely. They go on groups of eight, maybe more. And their whole job is to snoop and poop and find the enemy, locate them, and then bring smoke on them. But the last thing in the world they want to do is be discovered. Our job, the my force, we go out with a battalion of highly trained airborne mountain yards. And our job was to find and hook up with them and kick their ass. Totally different job. So the my force was broken down into battalions in cores. Two core being the biggest, we're in the central highlands. We had four battalions. And that would be about 300, I'm sorry, 400 to 450 mountain yards, all highly paid airborne. And they were way above the mountain yard skill level at the A camps on the border. And we would go out with them, with a team of American special forces. And either you were going into combat because one of the camps was in trouble, or you were going where likely they had the enemy was crossing over from the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Your job was to find, engage and kick their butts. So we went out, packing for bear every time we went out. And that was the difference between the two special ops. I asked for the battalion, for the bike force. And the young captain, you have not been in combat, you've not heard shot, firing, anger, but we got a hot area we want to send you to as the executive officer, to the senior captain in Bu Prang, which is a southernmost camp in two core special forces. And that's where I went. And then you show up there, and you're on the ground there for not very long, and you get your next assignment, which is a order to go to this fire base, called fire base, Kate. The monsoons, when the monsoons come in, it's rain, you can't believe it. And it's just regular clockwork. And what it does to your defenses, your sandbags, if it's not concrete, it's gonna deter and float away. So you have to rebuild everything at the end. Refortify. So I was in the middle of refortifying because all the enemy indications, and it was pretty rudimentary back then, intelligence was saying that the NVA was coming down, the NVA, North Vietnamese Army, was coming down from the north, and they were gonna hit the camp of Bu Prang and then move to the district capital of Bami Tuet, and then proceed over to the coast and cut the country in half. That was gonna be the big push. And in 75, they actually did that. So I was very busy working with the local Mountaineers doing that and Colonel came out from B team. We were A team, B team in Bami Tuet, and it's the United Kingdom Intelligence Briefing. Just said what I just told you. And he goes, yeah, okay, he says, yeah, okay. Well, he says, by the way, you're going out to fire base, Kate, for 30 days. Captain Barnum is there and he's coming in, and I said, but sir, but sir, you don't understand, they need me here. I'm getting this for you. Uh-huh, uh-huh, get on the next chopper out there. Yes, sir. So Bu Prang, how far was it from Bu Prang to Kate? Bu Prang was, not that many miles or clicks, it wasn't that many, maybe eight. So was it like a substation of Bu Prang? Fire base Kate, for those three of them around, and Kate Susan, and they were mutually supporting each other in the support of Bu Prang. In anticipation, these were the smallest fire bases that you could have. I mean, it wasn't as big as a football field. They usually had two 155 Howitzers and one 105 Howitzer. And they were in the middle of nowhere. Now, I'd never been to Annie and Susan, but I had been to Kate, a little factoid, the Lieutenant Colonel of the artillery named the fire bases Annie Kate Susan after his three daughters. Kind of a forebearer of Jen Ben Fu, where he named the mountains after his mistresses. Anyway, so I got sent to Kate. We were the ones, we were maybe a kilometer from Cambodia, the Cambodian border. By the way, I have been back there. And I got there. Are they, you know, looking at the pictures of fire base Kate, you know, it looks like a little mountain top. Like you said, it's about the size of a football field or so. Now, did did did coalition forces or I don't know what you call did the the mountain yards and the and the Americans cut down the trees up there and make that? Or is that just naturally like formed in that way where there's not trees on top of the fire on top of that hill? In that part of Southern Thailand, it's gorgeous. Vietnam is gorgeous. There's rolling hills and rolling hills, some significantly high, dense triple canopy jungle at the bottoms of them where the where there's moisture and creeks and everything. And then there's hills, there's fields that are like thigh high grass. And then there's more vegetation. Fire Base Kate had a lot of vegetation thigh high grass on it, somewhat level. And I think they dropped the bulldozer in there and just scraped it off. Got it. And then they and then they dug, dug parapets. You say in the book here again, get the book. I just jumped through you get going to such great detail on this stuff. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit from high above. Firebase Kate was a modeled red football field with dark laces on a bed of green felt. The pilot put the nose down and as we descended, the felt became jungle. The football resolved itself into sandbagged gun pits and bunkers carved out a red dirt and the laces turned into curving lines of foxholes. So this is you from the air looking down at Firebase Kate. Now as you're going in there and you cover this in the book like you didn't wanna go primarily cause it seemed like it was gonna be boring out there. Oh my God, yes. I should only ask for 30 days. So you're like, well, you know, why am I gonna be out there in your mind? But in your mind, when you see it isolated like that or you're like, oh, this could get spicy at some point. Well, my mind is going in there and seeing where it's on the map. I was thinking, my God, there's no help run. There's no roads. There's no, there's only two ways in helicopter or walk. And that's it. So that kind of said, huh, gotta make sure this place is best. Fast forward a little bit. We settled down in a dust cloud and the crew chief began tossing out boxes of ammo and C rations. I grabbed my car, 15 assault rifle, rucksack and hopped off. It was about 1500 local time on the afternoon of October 28th, 1969. I looked around unhappily noticing the high forested ridge to the Southeast. Why in God's name did they put a fire base here? I thought from that ridge, the enemy could shoot down at us with flat trajectory weapons, small arms, rockets, recoilless rifles. It felt like we were in a punch bowl. I flashed on what I'd read of the Denban few fiasco where the French sighted their guns in a valley surrounded by big high hills, convinced that the Vietnam could never haul artillery to those heights. They'd learned that that they in fact would haul artillery to those heights. I put those thoughts aside as Sergeant Dan Pirelli came to meet me as we moved toward the command post. I looked around noting the two big 155 millimeter howards and small 105 millimeter gun pointed north toward ambush hill. And again, just to describe this, there's fire base, Kate, which is a knoll sticking up and then joined to it by little fingers is this other hill. Yeah, to the north called, what you guys called ambush hill, which is also cleared off. So it looks very similar. No, it's not actually. No, it's not. It looks to be in the pictures. Well, that's because that's the after picture. Oh God, okay. That makes sense. Let me best describe this way. So you had this smaller than a football field fire base and around it on three sides, east, west and south, down about 60 to 80 meters was dense, dense jungle. That 60 to 80 meters between the top of fire base and down was thigh high grass. So basically cover, but I mean concealment, but not cover. To the north, you had a gentle slope because the rest of them were steep slopes, a gentle slope that ran north, ran down a gentle slope and into the lower basin of it. And there was dense, dense jungle there, but there was a gap, a natural gap. You probably drive a doosan half through it. And then you go on to, so you call that a saddle. And then the other half of the saddle was a smaller hill by much smaller hill, but on the, and it had thigh high grass at the top with dense jungle on top of it, but it wasn't big, maybe it was about 50 meters by 50 meters of wooded area on top of there. And every night we call it ambush hill because we put in about five, four, five guys out there as a listening post. To detect, because this was a way we figured the enemy would come. And this is Sergeant Pirelli, am I saying that right? Yes. And he's an SF guy as well. Oh, Buck Sergeant Pirelli, one of the finest guys I've ever served with in my life. God knows, he was my right hand man. He was my number two. He was exemplary. He passed not too long ago, but I couldn't have done without him. He was just that good. But other than that, you have on this base, 150 or so mountain yards. Yes. And then 30 or so. 27. 27 American artillery soldiers. Yes. And that's their job. So they're not special forces guys, they're regular soldiers. They're not infantry, they are artillery. Cannon cockers. Right. Continuing on here, not understanding until years later that artillery in Vietnam operated in 360 degree world, I wondered why the big guns had no overhead cover, only chest high sandbags. Then I turned my head to take another look at the thickly forested sharply defined ridge to the Southeast. I knew that we were less than four kilometers from the poorly defined border positioned within a bulge that my map showed jutting into Cambodia, disputed zone claimed by both countries. It was a reminder that Cambodia was to the northeast and west and that even Phaven troops, these are people's army of Vietnam troops, were not on that forested ridge. Kate was still well within range of their 82 millimeter mortars, 75 millimeter mortars and 75 millimeter Recorios rifles. Their B-40 rocket propelled grenades and of course their big 120 millimeter rockets. Not a good feeling to have. No, no, not at all. I shook hands with Lieutenant Smith and Curd, dropped my gear in a little sleeping hooch that I would share with Pirelli and got a wake up call. The roof was a row of sandbags on a sheet of plastic. It would keep the sun and rain out, but wouldn't stop a rifle bullet let alone a mortar. The front side facing away from the hill was exposed in short, it was a half-assed attempt at best. Together we started a slow, thorough inspection of the perimeter. So that's kind of your welcome to Kate. And I was saying that you didn't think there was gonna be much action there and there really hadn't been much action. None, absolutely none. These guys were playing volleyball, these guys were, they didn't feel like the need to really dig in the way somebody feels like attack is imminent. And so that's kind of what you see when you get there. Well, I talked to Danny, Danny got to the day before I did. I said, Danny, what we got here? And I dumped the gear and he goes, best we take a walk about. So we did, we walked around the perimeter and the fighting positions weren't deep enough, no overhead cover. The concertino wasn't corrected, oh, there was enough of it. The weeds were overgrown, the fields of fire weren't clear, there wasn't enough claymores. It was bad. And then the, and everybody else, they were playing cards, sending themselves. They were, they just weren't like in combat zone. Volleyball and the yards were playing volleyball too. And it was, oh, what are we on a resort here on? You gotta be there for a while before you get the mountain yards to start playing volleyball. That's right, that's the next level right there. Yeah, it is, what is this boy? So I said, this is ridiculous. So I called a meeting of all the Artillery guys and the mountain yard leadership because see, they have their own leadership. We're in charge, but they have, and it's kind of by a village, this guy may be in charge, he may be the captain of the Gar, or the mountain yards, but here's a village elder there that will tell him what to do. You have to be aware of that. So I called him, I said, no more cards, no more volleyball, we're gonna get this, we're gonna dig in, blah, blah, blah, let him go, let him know. And they said, well, what's going on? Now we get this hard ass captain coming in here telling us all this, are we gonna get hit? I said, I don't know anything about intelligence here, but I tell you right now, we cannot sustain anything in the condition we're in. So now the sun is getting low. So I got there three and now it's about five, pushing six. And when that sun sets, there is no ambient light. It is as dark as you could imagine it to be. So I said, nothing can be done now, but tomorrow morning we're gonna start. And Danny and I went, man, you know what? We're going back our hooch now. I think we're on the right track. And I said, Danny was the last time they ran a patrol. He goes, well, the other captain let the yards go out hunting. Yeah, and they killed a monkey and a, I don't know what else. And I'm sure they went the deep dive into the vegetation hunting. I said, well, tomorrow morning, let's take about 20 guys, let's go out there and do a clover leaf patrolling around Firebase K and see what's out there. Not much we can do now, it's dark. So I did something, Jaco, that for all the guys that have been in a combat situation, well, be nodding their heads right now. I took my boots off because it's, that I felt that safe. And we were in a combat situation, but any night that you could actually take your boots off and not sleep in them, well, no, that's a good night. And I took my boots off until 1130. Half an hour before midnight, I was jarred awake by the rattling pop of small arms fire. I opened my eyes, struggling to comprehend, to orient myself in time and space. Pirelli said, it's ambush hill. We put a listing post out there at night. A few minutes later, I heard the outpost strikers coming in, six or seven men beating feet as fast as their legs could carry them down steep ambush hill to the nearly flat saddle between the peaks, then up into Kate, more than a football field expanse and all. They came in yelling, Boku VC, Boku VC. They spoke a few words of French, are strikers. And that's a term that you use to, that you call the mountain yards as strikers. And to them, there was no difference between Viet Cong and Pete Paven, which is again, the People's Army. Many enemy soldiers is what they were saying. So this is sort of your first indication that something's happening. Absolutely. You have a AC-47 spooky aircraft arrived over head about 40 minutes after I made the call and began laying curtains of fire all around Kate. So you guys got air support pretty quickly. Pretty quick. At 0300 with no further sign of the enemy, spooky departed for its base and I slipped back into my fart sack for a few winks. A good thing, because it was the last interrupted sleep I would enjoy for days to come. Wednesday, October 29th, 1969. Something loud and close jarred me awake at dawn. I opened my eyes. It had to be Mike Smith's gun bun. He's firing. Nothing to worry about, I told myself. So you know, you get, you hear the big bangs. You think it's outgoing. Fast forward a little bit. By the time Pirelli and I were up and out of the sack, it was a drummer symphony of explosions. Boom, boom, boom. Shells from recoilless rifles and mortars and rockets landing everywhere. A muscular black gunner named Rudy Childs burst into our hoots screaming, we're taking incoming. I'm hit, I'm hit. I called for the medic. We put Childs out on our floor. He was in shock, really freaking out. His back was peppered with shrapnel and bleeding badly. Dan and I pulled out our field dressing and started to patch him up. As bad as he looked, we tried to reassure him to calm him down. Hey, you're gonna be okay. I said repeating it a couple of times. It's not that bad. You're just bleeding a lot. You'll be fine. Oh, am I, he said? And we both nodded yes. And this had an almost immediate effect. Childs calmed down a lot, allowing us to bandage him. Meanwhile, I'm thinking, holy shit, this guy is really shot to pieces. So this is like, it's off. And the horror of incoming indirect and direct fire. And it just blankets you guys. It does. It just hit us all at the same time. And but, it was a barrage in the last minutes. And then it ceased. And then we were patching people up calling in Medivacs. And stop here. Medivacs, Dust-Oz. Oh my God. Oh my God. Those guys are the bravest men I've ever met. They were phenomenal. And they come in and they deployed you to some fighter or a gunships and be a couple of Colbers or anything, but they'll come in and they'll get you. They'll get you. They never had one even hesitate to come in, no matter what and get the wounded. But I wanted to say something about those brave, brave men that flew those, oh, unarmed. Big red, bright, bright, exciting cross on the side of it for them. Yeah, so we called it in and I said, that's, I said, Danny, let's go. I'm thinking of this stat off the top of my head. I think I have it right. The 5,000 Hueys were sent to Vietnam. 3,200 of them were lost in combat. I believe every bit of that. Absolutely. And those guys flew those things. I've had a few of those Helo pilots on here. Those guys flew those things like they were rented vehicles. They were freaking hostile with those things. I never heard of you before, but that's right. Except the Marines. The Marines felt that if they, one went down, they had to pay for it. The Army guys did not give a shit about those birds. And they flew them in all kinds of crazy conditions. You know, I've had Seawolf pilots on here, the Navy, the Navy Huey pilots, and like they were, they would run out of fuel. There's pictures of them. They ran out of fuel in order to stay on station and then had to just set down in a random rice paddy where they use ammo cans to siphon gas from one other Helo into their Helo to get it back up in the air. Yeah, those Vietnam Helo pilots were something else. Cowboys. True. And I don't mean that a dragatory term. I mean that in the best term. They were cowboys. Yes, indeed. In the greatest sense of the word. Yes. Fast forward a little bit. Less than 20 minutes after the barrage stopped, I assembled two dozen strikers armed with M16 rifles, grenade launchers, and a couple of M60 machine guns. We left the circle of foxholes, threaded our way through the gap and moved across the grassy saddle and up ambush hill. So you see what's happening. You want to at least go on the offensive a little bit, see what you can get control of the field for. You have no idea what we're up against. Exactly. And this is like your second time, second day of interacting with these mountain yards. Not even a day, maybe 12 hours. Had they been trained by special forces guys? Okay, so that's where it is a little bit of connection. And they were all from different camps. They'd be like a platoon from maybe 30, 40 guys from one camp, 30, 40 guys from another camp. They're all from different camps. They blended well, they worked well together. So they weren't all from one particular camp. And anyway. But you got that connection with them pretty straight that they had been trained with special forces guys. Yes, yes, they knew what to do. Cause otherwise grabbing a bunch of people that you never worked with before and going out, that's a pretty aggressive move. They're all infantry. Chuck. Ambush hole is about the same elevation as Kate or perhaps a few meters less. Unlike Kate, it offered somewhat gentler slope in three directions down to the jungle below the summit. It was much smaller than Kate's. Maybe 30 meters across and top by a cops of trees surrounded by a veil of thick brush offering good concealment. We reached the hilltop without drama. In the tall grass we found a paving pith helmet and numerous blood trails. I sent a point man down ambush hill toward the jungle. The rest of us followed single file through waist high grass down the slope as a slope that grew steeper as we descended about 30 meters from the tree line. The jungle turned into the fourth of July and Bastille day. At least one machine gun and several AK-47s. We went prone and returned fire and a shit storm of flying lead came right back over our heads. The grass was high enough to hide us but offered no protection. I called the Dan and he blooped a few M79 grenades into the tree line. That quieted them down until we could pull back to a sort of berm, a long knee high mound of soil covered with grass that offered at least for a few minutes both cover and concealment. Three of my men were wounded but still ambulatory. For just a second or two, I was back at OCS. One of our tactical officers is speaking. Gentlemen goes this voice in my head a hundred times faster than in real life. A lot of you are new to the army. You're young guys with no experience. We're training you to be infantry officers, leaders of men. When you become a new second lieutenant, you will be tested. You'll be the butt of jokes about being green and inexperienced. But when your men hear their first shots fired at them, they're all going to look to you. Your privates, corporals and sergeants, even your senior platoon sergeants, they will all look to you. That's how the army works. They're going to look to you and you better goddamn be well ready to make the right decisions. Sure as shit, as soon as the shooting starts, my striker said, what do we do? I've been an officer for two years. Special forces trained. I've been around many senior non-coms and they had taught, tutored, mentored me. I wasn't afraid. I knew what to do and I was pissed about being ambushed. I couldn't tell whether it was a squad down there or a regiment, but if they wanted to dance, Arthur Murray was my middle name. Yeah, that's, I really liked that because you go through that moment where you realize in that moment, yep, everyone's, I gotta make the decision. I gotta make something happen. That's the leadership position. Do something and do it now. Don't freeze. You get in kind of a skirmish line. You start to sweep down the hill and meanwhile a helicopter shows up like a observation helicopter called a Loach, OH6. And this guy shows up and as you're starting to kind of flank the enemy, starting to move in sort of a big wagon wheel type sweeping movement, kind of reminded me of little round top. Exactly what I said. Yeah, it's like a little round top maneuver that you're starting to make. And meanwhile this Loach guy says, let me see what's going on there for you. He said, hovering just off the tree tops. He rose maybe twice tree top level and called back, get out of there, man. I see you, I see where you're going and they're mounting a force to flank you. A whole shit load of guys coming, a lot more than you've got. I told everybody to pull back up to the berm. As we moved, I heard the Loach pilot flying over the enemy. Meanwhile, hollering on the tactical frequency for more help. This was one crazy dude. It takes two hands and two feet to fly a helicopter. But while he slid sideways and I blink off the trees and talking on the radio, he was also shooting out the window with his 45 sidearm. And the enemy of course was shooting back with automatic weapons. He ran out of ammo, put in his second and last magazine, an act that required two hands and resumed firing. What a freaking maniac. And I so much wanted to beat this guy. What a beast. Hey, you gotta get out of there, he called. Half a minute later, he was back in the air. You've got one down in the tall grass. It was the point, man. I couldn't leave him dead or alive. I took three men and we charged down the hill, catching the enemy by surprise. Unfortunately, we didn't have to go far. He was hitting the head, barely alive. Then it was Rice Krispie's time. All snap, crackle and pop as the Pavan opened up with dozens of rifles. My strikers fired back. I reached down, picked up the wounded striker and put him across my shoulders in a fireman's carry and grabbed his weapon, just like in the movies. Then I discovered this is a lot effing harder in real life. We moved as fast as we could, back up the hill, steel jacketed hornets buzzing and whining all around us and somehow got back behind the berm unscathed. So you freaking charged down to grab this wounded guy. Let me mention something about this. When I do seminars or talk events, okay, some of the first questions you would ask is why, I mean, you as the leader, as the one that's on the radio calling in the airstrikes and Danny's quite capable, but it was pretty much on me at that time. Why would I do that instead of having somebody else do that? And the reason is these mountain yards didn't know me from an egg. They knew nothing about me. And by doing that, first of all, let me go back to this. I've never asked anyone to do anything that I hadn't done or wouldn't do. That goes right with the three M's of leadership, never. So I said, let's go get them. And in the doing of that, they saw that I valued my life, the same as, are their lives the same as I value my own life? Now, I don't think I'd ever had any problem, would have had a problem, but they understood that we were all in this together and that I didn't put myself up here and I was one of them and I was in command. So thank God I didn't get a shot, but I did was able to get them back there. And that's why I did that, because I've been asked many times about that. Yeah, we had some, not quite the same thing, but a similar element working with Iraqi soldiers. The Iraqi soldiers were not well trained. They were not very motivated. They were not educated. They were very unskilled. And so, sometimes it was like, well, why do you guys go out with them? So we would train them, but we didn't get a lot of time to train, but we'd do some training with them, but then we'd have to go out in the field with them, on patrols. And some of the questions were like, well, why are you going out with them? Why don't you just let them go out with, let them go out by themselves? Well, first of all, that would be a disaster. They couldn't call for fire support. They couldn't get casualty evacuation done because they just didn't have the capability to do that. So that was part of it. But the other thing is exactly what you're saying. You have to show them that like, hey, we're gonna bear some of this burden with you. And so you develop an actual relationship so that they can hopefully end up in a position where they can defend their own country. And this is a lot more extreme example of that, of you saying, hey, listen, we're here. Same principle. Same principle. You go on to say a couple of strikers took the wounded man and I paused 10 seconds to think. Strange, strange head said that we had to get out of here because they were closing in on us. As we were moving back up the hill, then he added they're going to cut you off at the gap. That meant that they were moving southward using the jungle to mask their project. And we're planning to take us off as we came toward the narrow passageway leading into the fire base. The one and only thing to do was to beat them. High diddle, diddle right up the middle, the most direct route straight across that grassy saddle and hope to hell we got there first. We took off moving as fast as we could, two guys carrying the head shop man and others helping out our ambulatory wounded and we ran like the devil was on our heels. Safely back at Kate, I learned that the striker I had rescued, rescued the one with the head wound had died. And that's a classic like leadership scenario, right? You hear word that the enemy's maneuvering to cut you off and you have to make a decision right then. And there's a constant battle for a leader between speed and security. Hey, we move fast, we can get something done quickly, but we're going to sacrifice some security when we do that or we can be very secure about what we're going to move slowly. And you had to make that call instantly, hey, we're going to just haul ass and beat them and get across that gap before they can cut us off. Which thankfully that's a call that you made. Otherwise it would have been a nightmare. So this is like your first day of real combat. First shot, Fire Nager. I know I've said that several times, but yes, it's, I just in one fell swoop, I received, I earned my combat infantryman's badge, maneuvering against the hostile enemy force while in the infantry. How well did you think you were prepared for that looking back now? Oh, I was very prepared. And people asked me that a lot of time. I just did a seminar here in Florida. And they said at 21 years old, barely 21, first time in combat, and this five day or two, how did you do it? I said, I was trained. I was trained. The army trained me to do this. And when Reagan was shot, okay, when President Reagan was shot, the guys reacted as they were trained. And they, in the doing of that, they saved his life. And this is the same thing. I reacted, it all kicked in right away. You've been there. You don't even think about it. You do it because this is the way you're trained and you've done it a million times. So that's the same thing. Yeah, I've had some guys, I had James Webb, who was the secretary of the Navy. But you know, same thing. He went to the Naval Academy, got done with the Naval Academy, went to the basic school, went to the basic school, went to the infantry officer course for the Marine Corps, had nine days of leave or whatever it was, gets to Vietnam, they put him in a jeep, they take him out in the jeep, they drive out there, they walk a little while, they point up at a ridge line, they go, hey, your platoon's up there. Am I relieving anybody? Nope, the last platoon commander got wounded or killed or whatever, he's not there, so you're just taken over. He gets up there and that night, he's in this massive gunfight, calling for fire the whole nine yards and I asked him, how prepared were you? He's like, I was totally prepared. And it's again, you know, and we were talking about this a little bit before we hit record today, but just the experienced people, that combat experienced guys that were putting you through training, that they are able to like one to one directly transfer that information to you and the other guys so that they know it and when you get there, you're ready. And unfortunately, I think once you lose that direct combat experience as instructors, you start losing some, that knowledge transfer, it becomes less accurate and less intense. And you know, I was lucky, I learned from some Vietnam guys and then we learned from guys that had learned directly from Vietnam guys and I still felt like it was a good transfer, but I think over time, administrative constraints come in and people, they start, you know, it's like, they start relating more to what they see in the movies to what actually happens, when you're talking about carrying this wounded guy, people don't realize how hard it is to pick up a carry a wounded guy. It takes four guys, you know, to truly pick up and carry someone for a long time. It really takes you out of the fight. And you know, can you do it? Yeah, you can, you did, obviously. But those kind of little lessons over time, they get lost. So the fact that you were able to step up day one and lead troops in combat with just proof of the experience and the attitude of the people that taught you and trained you. Yeah, they were good. They were very, and they were all, we should have a thing called Lessons Learned in Vietnam and they were all, all the stuff they were teaching us, little tricks and things like this, that's what they had. Yeah, yeah. Fast forward a little bit. Around 10 hundred hours, almost before my strikers were back in their foxholes, Haven, 82 millimeter mortars, B-40 Rockets, Recorrelous Rifles, Machine Guns and Small Arms, slammed Kate with a typhoon of steel and fire. Most of this, but not all came from those easterly heights. The 105 millimeter Howitzer guarding our north and our most vulnerable quarter was knocked out. It's tires flattened so it couldn't be aimed. Nevertheless, it's crew disregarded the mortars and rocks to remain at their gun. They manhandled it around to where they could fire at the ridge and started shooting. The previously damaged 155 Howitzer was hit again. The only bright spot was that Air Force Major George Latin, a forward air controller now circling a high overhead in his bird dog to serve as our primary aircraft manager. He was our lifeline. The only thing that could save everyone on Kate from certain death, Latin, call sign Walt 20, was on his way to becoming a legend in his own time. But like me, this was his first engagement on his first day of combat in Vietnam. Outnumbered and outgunned, effectively surrounded by a vastly superior Haven Force, later estimated at between 4,000 and 6,000. By the way, you have 150 or 200 guys. They have 4,000, 6,000. We would have been overrun that very day had not Latin vectored fast mover help to our tiny outpost. First in were the burly, but surprisingly agile F4 Phanoms from the 559th tactical fighter squadron, call sign Boxers out of Cameron Bay. Latin brought them in swift and deadly, then brought in swift and deadly F100 Super Sabres from the 35th tactical fighter wing called call sign Blades. And you go on to just talk about how these guys show up and the incredible difference it makes. And we get into napalm scenario. The tumbling napalm canisters exploded, spilling liquid fire to boil across the dark green jungle. The heat warmed our exposed skins, skin and the wind wafted the sharp metallic taste of charred petroleum to bite deep in our throats. When the Phanoms were gone, the Super Sabres appeared low and fast, flitting seemingly almost close enough to touch, sweeping across the ridge to our east. Black finned tail, or black finned bombs seemed to break loose of their own volition, slanting downward. The blast, perhaps a rifle shot distant, hurled a concussion wave that seemed to bend the air before staggering us with its invisible force. It was great theater, truly unforgettable performance. Yeah. And you're, so you're talking directly to Latin, this guy. Yeah, you know, the Ford air controller, you know, the bird dog, right? Single engine. I can't talk to the fast movers. I can't talk to the jets, the Air Force, but I talk to him. He, I'll, in my, visually, I'll say, okay, you see that ridge line, da, da, da, da, da, to this and I'm shooting an azimuth or whatever. He's, yeah, I think I see where it is. And then he would put a rocket in, a white phosphorus rocket marker. And I'd say, no, it's about a, about 50 meters, da, da, da. And then he would call in the guy, the jets, and then vector them in using the correction. And it worked pretty well until it didn't work, until it was the, the jungle all looked kind of the same. It was getting very hard. So I took a magazine and I went to our ammo supply and I took all the tracer rounds and I loaded up a magazine of tracer rounds. And I said, okay, watch this. And I went to the edge of the perimeter and I laid down on my stomach and I started shooting these tracer rounds exactly where I wanted it to go. And he says, got it. And he put a round in exactly where I was shooting. And they came in and just bombed the piss out of it. So I went to the other side and I started doing it again. Again, bullseye. I went to the third place. Well, they were catching on now. And he, so we had to, I had to back that up a couple clicks. But once he established where it was, they came in and did well. But I could, I could talk to him. I mean, I said, but I couldn't talk to the, the jets. Chopper's a different story. Talk right to them. Yeah, that's something that when I was a young radio man in the SEAL teams, we would carry, I would carry a mag of all tracers to mark the target, you know, and never got to do it. But apparently it worked out. About two times about all you can do. I would say by the third time, you'd be a real bullet magnet though. It was. Yeah, yeah. Fast forward a little bit. It's about 1100 hours. I called for the Medevac choppers to take out our wounded. This proved to be a dangerous procedure, not only for the pilots and crew who flew, flew through fire to land on, cause you had taken a bunch of wounded in these attacks, these mortar rocket artillery attacks. You'd taken a bunch of wounded. Also for the men who was obliged to stand in the open while directing the chopper to safely land on our small crowded hilltop. That was me. As the Medevac slowly hovered in, both pilots had their eyes riveted on me. Seconds from touchdown, from the corner of my eye, I saw B-40 rockets fiery launch from the hillside to our east. I was poised to dive behind something, but the pilots didn't see the rocket. Frantically milling my arms, I waved them off, but the bird kept coming. In my mind, I saw the rocket and helicopter arriving simultaneously. Finally, the pilot realized what was happening and started to peel off. The rocket landed with a fiery explosion. Something red hot slammed in my upper left arm, staggering me. Jagged holes appeared in the Medevac Hueys underside as it shuttered upward. It dipped from sight into the valley below and then climbed back into the safety of the clouds. My arm was on fire, the worst pain I'd ever felt. Dark blood soaked my fatigue jacket as I ran to Kate's makeshift aid station. Dock cleaned the entrance and exit wounds. It seemed that the shrapnel went all the way through. He wrapped my arm in a big bandage, what we dubbed an elephant cortex. The red hot steel and prompt disinfecting ensured that there would be no infection. Doc told me I was very lucky. Then he said another Medevac chopper was inbound and asked if I wanted to get on it. Until then I hadn't even thought about leaving. I shook my head. I wasn't going anywhere. So you're wounded. How bad was it? Could you move your arm? It got better. Yeah, I didn't put a sling or anything. Just bandaged it up, took some pills. Oh yeah, that's right. What kind of pills did you guys have? You guys had like the stay awake pills, which is just basically meth. It's, yeah, we'll talk about that right now. When I got to Vietnam, they gave me a jar of dextral and phitomy. And I never heard of this. I didn't know what it was. And I said, what are these? I said, stay awake pills. And I said, what are they for? And they said, you have to be up on the radio all night or something running for your life in the jungle. You're going to want these. And you're going to get them to your men too. Okay, I never thought about it. Put it in a rock. I started using them then. Now the after story is when I'm going home de-rosin, going home and I am, I've told this story a few times. I go, huh, well, these might come in handy in the States. So I throw them in my shaving kit. And I'm going through and you're leaving Vietnam and all these signs, if you have any drugs from this bin, no questions asked, edited out, you cross this line, you're going to jail. Oh, okay, fine. Now I'm in a war suit. I got the beret on, khakis, ribbons, jump boots, spit shine, I'm looking pretty goddamn sharp. And I walk up there and there's this Private E3, you know, and he's MPing, he's going through it. And he opens the bag and he pulls this out. He goes, I read his Dex from Fitami on there. And he goes, sir, are these yours? I said, yeah. And he goes, serge. Ha ha ha ha. Oh, yeah, yeah. So the sergeant comes and he looks at this and he was kind of a gruff kind. He looks at it and he goes, sir, these years? I said, yeah. And he goes, he's skipping behind a curtain. He goes, where did you get these? I said, there were issues to me. He said, do you know what these are? And I said, yeah, the Stay-Away pills. And he goes, this is speed. And I went, you know, that's a good name for it. Ha ha ha. And he's probably in a bar somewhere now, telling that story. And he's like, go put him in that container out there and then get sir through, go. Yeah, true story. And it's got its own legs. But yeah, that's what happens. So yeah, I was on Dex from Fitami. I was taking that and my god, does that shit work? Ha ha ha. Jack. Fast forward a little bit. A little later, CH-47 Chinook swooped in to drop sling load gear and then flew away. Just before dark, the Chinook was back with a new 105 millimeter howitzer dangling from its belly. So, you know, the guns that had been damaged, they bring in new guns, thankfully. One gun. Oh, one gun. A little after the Chinook departed, a line of five UHD-1 Hueys. The flying delivery trucks known as SLICs and armed only with door-mounted machine guns approached low and slow, approached low and fast from the west. They were escorted by two Huey gunships. All seven aircraft were from the 48th AHC out of BMT. In the right-hand seat of the leading gunship was Chief Foreign Officer Ben Gay, age 20, out of Richmond, Virginia, serving as aircraft commander and leader of this two-ship fire team. Across the valley to the southeast, our Pavan neighbors had been planning a big reception in our honor. When the party committee saw that we had invited more friends to share the fun, they were furious. As the first SLICs approached, the neighbors began shooting them with 12.7 millimeters heavy machine guns, small arms and RPGs. My strikers were in the fighting positions, shooting back, but it didn't seem to have much effect. I told Garamin, am I saying that right? Garamin? Garamin? Garamin, the generator man, as well as Hopkins and Coon and whoever else I could lay hands on to find spots and fire at the enemy positions. The 105 crew cranked their gun around to the east and opened up in direct fire mode. So this is, again, number one, you guys are in a seriously bad position. And number two, everybody that's coming in to try and help you is getting engaged in a real big way. Now, you say here, and I'm fast-forwarding a big chunk here, I spent the night of the 20, or this isn't you talking, I spent the night of the 29th in a generator pit on the radio with Spooky and Shadow, the gunships, John Kerr recalls. And again, listen, you introduce all these characters and you give a awesome biography of who they are, where they come from, and I'm not, the guy's on the ground with you, some of the pilots that you did were able to track down. So the book has just got so much incredible detail of these heroes. Here's one of them, I spent the night of the 29th in a generator pit on the radio with Spooky and Shadow, the gunships, John Kerr recalls. I enjoyed that, we had really good support that night. On the dawn of, at dawn on the 30th, as soon as the last gunship left, incoming fire resumed. Then it was Albright and me sitting in this foxhole, kind of staring at each other, as if to say, what are we gonna do now? As soon as that barrage began, I started prepping to defend against a ground attack. The night before, I'd send a coded message requesting more reinforcements, lots of ammunition, and water, we were running low on everything. So when it's nighttime and you got the gunships out there, it keeps the enemy, kind of keeps their heads down. It does, excuse me, I'm at bay. Yeah, and then as soon as they go away, because the gunships don't fly at night, and again, these are, if you don't know, these are the, what, AC-47 gunships, they fly low and slow, and they just orbit around the ground forces, and they can be hit by ground fire. So they, generally speaking, they do not, to this day, like AC-130, those things do not fly during the day. They will leave and go back to safety, and so that's what's happening here. There's that critical time, as you well know, in combat, when you're having that much support. Once the night warriors go home, because they can't be out there at dawn, but prior to enough light for the choppers to come in, or the jets to come in, is a very crucial time, because it'll hit you with everything, plus the kitchen sink, and that's what they did every time. But we, and we knew that, and we were ready. And you're sending messages, we need ammunition, we need food, and we need water. Food, not so much. Water and ammo? Water. Absolutely. You say this, I took stock of our ammo and found that we had very little left, and we had fired off all our claymore mines, usually to good effect, even if we were to get more of these anti-personnel mines. There was so much incoming that I didn't see how my men could leave cover and replace them at safe distance below their fighting positions. Several aircraft tried to bring us ammo, but each time was driven off by intense fire. Around noon, there was a break in the action. By now, we were virtually out of water, and many of my strikers only had a couple of 20 round magazines left. While we redistributed what little ammo we had, I called again for resupply. 20 round mag, and you guys are pretty much out of water. That was horrible, been out of water. It's the worst. Fast forward a little bit. Black and Nolan arrived over Kate in their gunships at almost the same time as Matlock and Guthrie in their slick, and again, these names that I'm throwing out there, you give great background on who these guys are, where they come from, where they're flying out of, what their job was. Like it's incredible, so get the book. The Joker's guns gave them cover on their approach. Then our fact-directed gays fireteam to find and finish a suspected, paving anti-aircraft site with at least one 12.7 millimeter heavy machine gun. I located the area of the AA site and began an attack at about 150 feet above the jungle, followed by Blackie and Herne in the second aircraft, gay wrote in his after-action report. Matlock and Guthrie in Ghost Rider 12 were just then hovering on to Kate. As we passed over the wire and bunkers, the men in the cargo compartment kicked out the water and ammo, wrote Guthrie. Matlock flared the Huey and stood on its tail to stop it. The Medevac helicopters came in like a shot, recalls the slightly built Jeramin. They were so amazing. They came in at full speed just above the treetops and as soon as they got close to the base of our hill, they would gun it to get up the slope and then circle around in what seemed like full power. Then they'd stop and hover just a little above the ground so that they didn't have to build up momentum to lift off. It seemed like it just took a couple of minutes to come in, reload and take off because the enemy was constantly shooting at them. I landed on the H for helipad. It should have been R for mortar registration point, says Matlock. Jeramin manhandled a wounded striker toward the landing Huey. Neither was neither the first nor the last time he would do so on Kate. He was shot up so bad that when I lifted him, he could barely hold his head up and he was so bloody that I had to put my arms under his armpits and grab his other hand or he would have just slipped out of my grasp, Jeramin said. Covered with the wounded man's blood, he put the striker on the Huey's cargo floor. The crew chief beckoned Jeramin to come aboard but he shook his head, I'm not hurt, it's not my blood. He yelled over the engines. A beat behind Jeramin, more than a dozen strikers mobbed the aircraft. A yard unharmed and carrying his weapon jumped on. The gunner yelled to us, is he supposed to be going? Says Jeramin, if he isn't wounded, he's not supposed to go, Jeramin yelled. The gunner aimed the M60 at the yard and told him to get off or he would blow him away. So he jumped off, another yard grabbed him, disarmed him and two more yards took him away. And a few seconds later, I heard one shot and then the two yards walked away without the guy, without the guy they pulled off the chopper. Jeramin believes the striker was executed for desertion. That's kind of a wild story. It is. Like this guy was gonna try and get out of there and his buddy said, no, actually, you're not going anywhere. Yeah. And your honor, I know nothing about that. Matlock now tried to hover off the helipad but the overloaded ship with wounded men standing on the skids and clinging to the sides couldn't rise. We shoot the excess away and lifted off just as an 82 millimeter mortar round landed under us right on the H, Matlock recalls. The blast wave blew the helicopter off the LZ doing some structural and sheet metal damage to the bird. We also took a few rifle rounds coming out. In fact, the mortar's steel tail fins were driven almost completely through the aircraft's hardened aluminum fuselage. Working to Cates North, Gay had made several passes each time followed by black and heron, all firing rockets at the Pave and machine guns. As I turned behind Blackie, I observed AA fire, ground fire on from a second 12.7 millimeter gun hidden about 90 degrees from the first one, Gay recalls. It was a flak trap. The second gun had remained silent and hidden until the first gun had lowered a gunship into range. I saw, I saw Black's ship getting hit says Gay. The bottom of the aircraft was struck in the fuel cell by a 12.7 millimeter rounds and immediately burst into flames. I called immediately, eight, five, this is seven, three, you're on fire, you need to put it down. Both aircraft were so low they couldn't see very far. Black reply, where's the field? Before Gay could respond, the stricken Huey's tail boom separated from its fuselage and the ship flipped upside down, plunging 50 feet into the jungle and exploding on contact with the ground. The aircraft was so close that I felt the blasts intense heat on my face and arms, a spectacle that haunts me to this day. As the reality of what I had just witnessed, what I had just witnessed sunk in, I felt hollow. Fighting nausea, I struggled to focus my attention on the multitude of other urgent issues confronting me. Where would the next ground attack come from? Did I have enough men to hold the flank? Enough ammo. Meanwhile, Matlock and Gun-3 were fighting gravity and blast damage, nursing their overloaded Huey up from the trees and out of small arms range. To them and to many on Kate, it appeared that Joker 8-5 had been hit by an RPG. We were taking off to the west and they just crashed into the jungle to the north of our flight path. As we passed over the wreckage, I saw Paven troops shooting into the cockpit. Gay began to circle the flaming wreckage, but immediately came under heavy fire. The FAC ordered him to leave the area. I thought about mounting a rescue for any survivors. After a few seconds, I realized that no one could have lived through that explosion and that would have been suicide to venture among the hostels swarming around the crash site. Every man on Kate who witnessed this horrific event was damaged in some way for the rest of his life. None of us had met these aviators, Black, Herne, Canada and Lot. Didn't then, didn't even know their names, but they were our brothers, American soldiers who had repeatedly risked their lives for us and they were now dead. The thought of it was overwhelming. Even now, thinking about it is painful. I'm sorry. To read it as graphic as it is, is one thing, but to have seen it, those of us who did and then felt that heat from the explosion was a tough time for all of us. Now, did this from a tactical perspective, did this in your mind inhibit any other birds from coming in? Oh yeah, it was suicide. They brought in a 37 millimeter anti-aircraft gun too. And so it was now suicide for coming in for, we had these chopper pilots, these fighters, these gunships were coming in fast and dumping rockets and grenades and everything they had, the machine guns, the miniguns and everything. And then we can't do it anymore because it was suicide. And so we gave up that close air support and rightly so. So now it was, they had to come from a fair. So we were in a bad situation, it just got worse. This fighting continues on. Fast forward a little bit. I was running on adrenaline and the tiny dextrometaphene amphetamine pills that Special Force provided extended combat situations, you already talked about that. Late that night I was back on the radio with spooky six one orbiting overhead since full darkness, firing at any light they saw on the ground and anything that we heard from the darkness outside our stronghold. So this is it, you're hunkered down, you're got spooky out there, thankfully, laying down fire, taking out whatever they see. Fast forward a little bit here. I never saw the B-52s, I never heard their engines. At 10, 11 local time, 36 seconds after the first bomb was released, as it reached a velocity of just over 800 miles per hour, it slammed into the ground and detonated. It was followed by 323 more bombs, 90 tons of high explosives packed in steel, landed a half a kilometer or less from Kate. Not knowing what was coming in, I glanced eastward and beheld the first few massive explosions. For a fleeting moment, I thought they were backblast from some indirect fire weapon. Recoiling, shocked, I thought, oh my God, if that's the backblast, how in God's name will we ever survive the impact? Then the incredible shockwaves and deafening sounds rolled over me and my nose went in the dirt. On Kate, it was like being camped out on the road between Sodom and Gomorrah, while fire and brimstone rained from the heavens. An unearthly roar assaulted our ears. The earth bucked up and dipped and shook for a minute, for a minute that seemed like an eternity. Although they slept on clean sheets, showered daily with hot water, ate an air conditioned mess hall, and nobody was shooting at them. I've got to applaud those airmen for putting their bombs just where I wanted them. Any one of those 500 pounders that had landed on Kate, I'm certain that it would have killed me and everyone else on our hill. As it was, one bomb landed in the gully to our east, close enough for Shrapnel to kill one of my strikers and wound two others. 323 500 pound bombs. It was amazing. I've never seen it well. You're never that close. That's way beyond danger close, but we needed it. What was the coordination like for that? Did you pass it? Did you pass it? Did they give you a timeline? Not until the last moment. Until the last moment they said take cover, deep cover. And I put the word out real quick. I still didn't know what was going on. I didn't mean I had asked for everything in the kitchen sink, but I had no idea they were actually gonna put a B-52 strike in, but they did. And it was truly one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in combat. No, the most amazing thing I've ever seen in combat. I mean, I didn't see that close to it. So too close, too close. But it had to be. So it was that 10 minutes after the devastation of the B-52 strike, the shit storm battering Kate resumed. Rocket's mortar's recoil is so high for small on fire, smash Kate from every direction. So even after that, massive. What happened, and I found out this after the war, is a lot of those laid launch out of the Philippines. And they'd fly in a certain direction. And those Russian trawlers that are out there in the ocean, they tracked them. And they would be broadcasting it. And then when they'd make their turns, and then they started heading for a hot area. They kind of estimate where they were coming. They would broadcast to the NVA, and the NVA would let them say, hey, so believe it or not, they had actual warning. And if you caught them without warning, oh my God, you'd break the back of any major battle. But they knew, and although I'm sure we did massive damage, they not enough to break their backs. So they came back out of their caves and bunkers and resumed the fight. I was a bit disappointed. Yeah, it is always crazy how what we think is gonna totally decimate the enemy. When you look at the island campaigns over in the Pacific theater, those guys would get, the Japanese would get bombed for days. And the Marines would be thinking, oh, there's no way anyone would survive that. And sure enough, they're just dug into caves. That's just a crazy concept to think about. Because you see it happening, you think no way could anybody survive that. But if you dig in, it's survivable. You say here, our last functioning howitzer, the 105, took its second direct hit from a recoil-less rifle and was finally knocked out. A little later, I made the rounds of the perimeter with Ross and we took advantage of a lull in the action to chat about personal things. So Ross was a guy that had showed up as a replacement. For Kerr. For Kerr, because Kerr had been there. Well, actually, a replacement for Mike Smith, who had been wounded, and he didn't want to go, but we can't take care of you here. So he showed up for them on October 30th, but I couldn't meet with him until the 31st of October. You say, so I made, as I made rounds with the perimeter with Ross, we took advantage of a lull in the action to chat about personal things. He was from a small town in Wisconsin, grew up 150 miles away in a neighborhood in neighboring Illinois. Our backgrounds, or sorry, I grew up less than 150 miles away in neighboring Illinois. Our backgrounds were similar, although he'd been to college and was a bit older. During our conversation, he had noticed he was wearing a wedding band. So I asked about his wife. Ross replied that he was due to meet her and their newborn son, John, a child that he'd never seen in Hawaii when he went on R&R. Ron went on to talk about his son, how proud he was to be with father, about how he could not wait to hold the infant, about his hopes and dreams for his little family's future. Then the shooting resumed. In a moment, we were pinned down on the northwest side of the perimeter. We were safe for that moment, but I couldn't run the show from there. When things slowed down around 1120 and after a few minutes with only occasional incoming, I decided we had to risk moving. We were high on the military crest. As soon as we stood and moved to the top, we'd be silhouetted against the sky. I pointed out the sandbagged command bunker and told Ross that that was where we were headed. I described its L-shaped entrance and blast wall in front to protect it from near misses of flying explosives. I told Ross, we're gonna run to that bunker. When you get there, enter from that side. Ross nodded his head to show that he understood. There's no point in giving them two targets, I continued. I'll go first. Let me get to cover behind the blast wall before you follow. Understand? Got it? Ross nodded again. I got it. It was 50 or 60 feet to the bunker, the first part uphill, but altogether no more than a four-second sprint. I took off running as fast as I could. The enemy was only about 125 meters away on the opposite hillside. When I was about halfway to the bunker, I heard Ross's footsteps behind me, a few steps back and closing. Then I saw the rocket. Time seemed to slow down as I heard the B-40's distinctive scream. From the corner of my eye, I saw its fiery red tail heading right at me. I hit the entrance behind the blast wall and the exploding warhead's shockwave blew me inside the bunker to safety. Behind me, Ross Lake crumpled in the doorway. One more step and he would be telling this story. Instead, a jagged hole in his neck pulsed a fountain of blood. I slapped my hand over the wound. Someone from inside the bunker moved up behind me to help. I have no earthly idea who that was, but despite my hand clamped over his throat, Ross was still squirting blood. In a half a minute, the fountain slowed to a trickle. Deathly pale, Ross was not breathing, and I realized he would never see his new son. I had told him to wait until I was in the bunker. He said that he understood. Why the hell didn't he wait? I felt rotten, empty. I needed time to come to terms with his death, but I didn't even have a few minutes. I tucked the thought away and returned to the urgent work of getting more air support and preparing for yet another ground attack. An hour later, I zipped Ross into a body bag. I noticed that he had neglected to button the top of his flak vest, leaving his throat exposed. Had it been closed, would that few inches of Kevlar have saved him? It's very hard to know. Okay. So one thing about Ross, he had the bluest eyes that I'd ever seen, I've met Frank Sinatra. And when I held him in my arms, his, those beautiful blue eyes, just you could see the life drain out of him. And since he was from Appleton, Wisconsin, and I was from Rock Island, Illinois, I said, when I get out, when this war's over, if I make it through this, we go to Appleton and I'm going to go to his parents and his wife and his son, well his infant son and tell him that yes, I was with him the day he died and he died in the arms of a friend. He wasn't just out killed in a jungle and shipped home but I actually held him in his last in my new friend. And well, time gets in the way and life gets in the way. So in October, well, so I didn't because everything started going and I got so busy and everything, but it haunted me that I never fulfilled this promise that I'd made to myself. And in the writing of the book, in the doing of the book, Ken Moffitt, who I've mentioned, was an incredible movie force of this whole thing, found John Ross, the son that his father never saw. He was in Waterloo, Iowa, not that far. He knew nothing about his father because his mother was devastated. His grandparents would never ever talk about him, which I wouldn't allow them to bring up. They were beyond grief. So the first army in Rock Island, Illinois, when they got wind of this thing, they had a special ceremony and we brought John in and they presented him with the flags and Purpleheart and whatever appropriate medals and actually some of the guys from Kate spoke. But prior to going to the ceremony, I sat down with him in my living room with my wife, Mary and his wife and I told him what had happened. But as I looked into his eyes, there it was again, the bluest eyes you could ever see. There I was back again talking to Ron and I told him about it and he had no idea what had happened to his father. No one would want to talk about it. So that circle of my life closed and we went to the ceremony and he was presented and told about his father. So to me, I came to peace with a very important thing that I had failed to do, but I finally did do it. And that is not in the book because it happened after the book. But I really felt like I needed to talk about that right now. I mean, I can't even imagine what that meant to him. You know, it's funny, with my guys that I lost in combat when I talked to their parents, any or siblings, any fraction of a new story that you remember, that you can tell them and share with them is like gold. They treasure it so much because, the unfortunate truth is when we're with these guys, we're with these guys 24 hours a day and we see them kind of grow and we see them in their final form in a way. And of course we get the stories too. You know, we get stories about them when they were kids and it kind of completes our understanding. But, and we treasure that as well, but you can see, you know, sharing with the parents, you know, some silly little thing that they did or said or whatever the case may be, they just relish it so much. And I can't even imagine for him, not knowing anything that had happened, just to be able to understand what had occurred and what that meant, just that's incredible service to him, both the son and the dad, to be able to connect them. Oh, the parents are long gone. Yeah, but even. If I would have reacted, if I done, yeah, that would have been a good thing. Well, I mean, the dad, I'm saying it's a service to Ross himself. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, like how did he, he would want, you know, he would want the son to know what happened. And now he does, powerful. Fast forward a little bit. We needed to plug, we needed more men to plug the gaps in our perimeter. We needed ammunition. I needed to lie down and sleep for a week. I needed a cold beer. Most of all, we needed water. By the afternoon of October 31st, we were out. Every canteen was dry. And even the canteens of the dead had been drained. 48 hours of fighting under the sun and moon and no water since the previous night. I was learning the hard way that when you're out of water, when you can no longer sweat, when peeing is out of the question, because there's no fluid left in your kidneys. When you grow lethargic and there's nothing left in your body core to draw energy from. When even standing up and walking around is hard, then you're literally starting to die from dehydration. The only thing you can think about is water. God, I wish I had some water. And this was where I was and pretty much everyone on Kate was. So you guys are now fully dehydrated. It was terrible. I'm getting thirsty thinking about it. Luckily, some Cobras and a CH-47 roll in and they drop off a water buffal. M149 water trailer was at 400 gallons of water and somehow that thing miraculously doesn't get shot up or wounded in any way. So you guys ended up with some water. But which brought upon another crisis. It was dropped, let's see, about three o'clock in the afternoon. And they all started, the yards all started running towards it. And I'm out there with Danny, go back, go back. Cause the NVA were like, well, look at here. Look at here. Target practice. As soon as a couple of rounds landed, we got everybody, oh shit, we got to get back to our positions. So now we all had to wait till the sun set. No one, it's right there. And when we had to, it was dark, dark. Then I gave the word and everybody started coming up. Fast forward a little bit. The Paven had respected no rules of engagement. They fired from Cambodia. Made no difference where they came from. Whether it was 105 or a big, or a bigger, another round landed near Kate, another two more almost together. If this didn't stop soon, we'd all die. Our defenses simply could not take a direct hit from that kind of artillery and survive. I called, screamed actually, from major Latin to call in the fast movers to silence those guns. And again, this is guns that you know, you're looking at on the map there in Cambodia. Yes. He flew Northwest circling low over the Vietnam side of the international border. After a few minutes, he called back. Can't do it, hawk, he said. And that's your call sign. Can't do it, hawk. They're on the other side of the fence. I got back on the radio and told Latin in no uncertain words that I didn't care where they were. I wanted them hit. The only way I can do that is if the ground commander declares a tactical emergency. No sooner had he said these words in my ears that I said, I declare a tactical emergency. It's the same tone of voice that I might have used to order a cold tiger beer at the officers club. Roger returned Latin. The next thing I knew, the fast movers were screaming eastward to bomb the bollocks out of Camp La Roland. A week later, there was a blurb news week to the effect that the US Air Force planes had bombed a neutral Cambodian army base. John Kerry mentioned it in his winter soldier rants. So let me set the record straight for all time. That was me. I did that. If I hadn't, my bones and those of everyone else on Kate would probably be rotting in the bottom of a big ravine below Kate's ghost. So. Absolutely. That's rules of combat. Yeah, rules of engagement. Yeah, they were, it was bad. And my name ended up on Nixon's desk in an hour. It's creating an international incident. Actually twice, because I have to go back and do it again. Yeah. Did they give you any static on round two? You know what? No, they didn't. They didn't give me any static from round one. They just, you know, it was what it was. And it was a Cambodian army base, and they had just taken it over. So we had two infantry divisions, regiments. So that's 4,000 or 5,000. And plus the artillery regiment that was staying over there. They were come loaded for bear. And an interesting fact about this, one of the artillery, one of the infantry regiments, it was the 28th and the 66th. Ho Chi Minh's finest, that's the same one, Hal Moore fought, and we were soldiers once in the Andrang Valley in 1965. So they were hard and hardcore, maybe the best they had, and they fought like it was the best they had. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. Here we get into some, well, guys are reaching their breaking point. You say here, Hopkins lost it. He was a very brave man, a good soldier. He had done as much he can to defend our little corner of hell. The fact is, however, that under prolonged combat, every man can be broken. There's no shame in it. Hopkins had reached his breaking point and couldn't take it anymore. He began screaming, I said, this is bullshit. You get me the fuck out of here. This is bullshit. If my country's not willing to protect me, you can get me the hell out of here. Our medic, Doc, had been in the corner watching and listening. He moved over to Hopkins repeating his name in a soothing voice. He gave him an injection of some kind, something to calm in and a few minutes, Hopkins was asleep. I called for Medevac. I still had to get Red Caldwell out as well, but it would be a long time before anything that didn't explode or ricochet could land on Kate. Not every artillery man in our small garrison was actively involved in our defense. A couple more senior non-coms, and I am reliably told, remained undercover during every firefight. One PFC, he should be very glad that I never got his name, was sent to load wounded men on a chopper when the Medevac took off, he was on it. So some guys, I mean that. Hackworth in about face, he talks about men or vessels. Yep. And once in combat, that vessel's full, that's it. And every man's vessel is a different size. Ken Hopkins fought like a banshee. He, these about him and Nelson Kuhn and a couple of these other guys, they were artillery men, but they took up the infantry banner. And when we would get penetrations in the wire, they'd come in, these guys were ready reaction force. They take an M-60 machine gun, go to the point of the break, lay down a base of fire and start driving them back. Brave, yeah, absolutely. But when we were denied, or request a band in which you'll get to, Hopkins just said, that's it. What then you read what he said, a brave man, but his vessel was filled and that can spread. So best we sedate him. And I didn't call the chopper in just for him, there was other wounded, but I put him on that chopper because you know how panic can spread. It's like somebody said it's like the common cold. Yeah. Yeah, you say, I pulled my other go-to guys, including Kuhn in German and a few other artillery men who've been active in our defense into the FTC. As I told them what was going on and shared my assessment of our situation, I also explained the very real hope that the Mike Force would get us out. So this is stuff your organization, again, it's get the book. It explains so well what it's like being in combat, like all these little details that people, you know show that in the movies, you know, like how hard it is to get these things to happen. But you explain it in the book, you've got this Mike Force, you're trying to get them to come and help you. As I spoke, I looked around the dim crowded room peering at their dirty, stubbled faces. There was hardly water enough to drink, let alone wash or shave. I told them as if they didn't already know that the paving it his with almost every goddamn thing they had for more than three days. We had bled and we had died, but we held our hilltop still. As I spoke, updating our situation, I studied their faces. One man, if I ever knew it, I can no longer recall his name, was hunched over cradling his jaw, looking very much like the famous rodin sculpture, almost a living the thinker. I looked into their bloodshot eyes and I said, listen, we're under some heavy duty pressure here boys, and we got to watch out for each other. Just then I saw the thinker tremble, a tiny movement. In seconds, he was visibly shaking violently. Then he broke down muttering, I'm sorry, I just can't take it anymore. He began to weep and I could see how strongly this affected all of us, how it created an even more intense bond between us. I told him, hey, it's all right, man, it's all right. After a little while, Doc came in and sedated him as well. In 1969, I had yet to start college. I didn't know how much was then known about what we now call post-traumatic stress disorder. In Vietnam, we called it combat fatigue or battle fatigue. Our forefathers generation called it shell shock, all the same thing. I didn't need a degree in psychology to understand what had happened to these men. Lord have mercy, I knew what we'd been through, what we still were going through. I never ever felt anything but sympathy and brotherhood for these guys. And even though we were now desperately short-handed, they had to be evacuated. I'd rather go into battle with five men I can depend on with my life than a hundred that I can't be sure of. That's a tough call to make. But yeah, you got these guys that are freaking out. There's no point in keeping them there. No. Fast forward a little bit. In the dark hours of the early morning of November 1st, I received a coded message from A236, Detachment B20 of the two core mobile strike force, headquartered in Placoo, but then at Bu Prang would mount the operation to come to our assistance. Well, before that, so I had requested, I said, you know, we need boots on the ground. If I'm gonna hold this and I will, I need boots on the ground. So the request went up, went forward. And I went to see the headquarters and the fourth infantry division was about 100 clicks north. There was just 10,000 men, hardcore fighters. And to our west, or sorry, to our east was the 23rd Arvin of South Vietnamese Army, 10,000 infantry. So the request went and the fourth would have come. Oh yeah, I mean, we found them, come and help us out. But they said, no, stand down. Nixon was turned in the war over to Vietnamization. We're letting the Vietnamese take over the battle, the fights. So no, fourth, no, stand down. They went to the 23rd Arvin to ban me to it. The division, they said, hey, you gotta go into Cate and get these guys out. Otherwise they're gonna be annihilated. And first of all, the Vietnamese have no love for the mountain yards, nor did the mountain yards for the Vietnamese. And he went, yeah, you know what? I'm not gonna do that. I said, oh, no, no, no. This is your war. This is a battle. This is the perfect time. You gotta go in and get those guys out. And he goes, yeah, I don't and I won't and I'm not. I have to stay here, because when they're done there, they may come here and I gotta defend this. So nobody's going anywhere and nobody blinks. That's when the two core Mike Ford said, oh, fuck this, we're going in. And you know, you say my trooping spirit sword, obviously my special forces brothers were coming to help us in our dire time of need. Then the pave and drop the other shoe, a little after daybreak, heavy shelling from Cambodia resumed, man. They're just freaking, dude, throwing everything they can at you. So here's what goes down with the Mike Force. Fast forward a little bit. In the late afternoon, I saw a swarm of dots that represented a dozen or more Huey slicks escorted by several gunships approaching from the Northwest. Enough lift ships I judged to carry one Mike Force company. They dipped down out of sight at a distance that I judged to maybe two kilometers or so. The choppers rose empty and hurried away. A little later, they returned to insert a second company. But before the last of those choppers were down, the wind brought the faint rattle and chatter of small arms fire, along with the louder echo and crash of mortar impacts and the sharp crack of RPGs. I turned my PRC 25 radio to the Mike Force frequency and heard their advisors, Australian Special Air Service, by their accents, talking to Mike Force headquarters. I understood from this that two rifle companies were boots on the ground, but they had been surrounded almost immediately by Pave and Infantry and were taking mortar fire. And they weren't dug in. We were dug in, they weren't. It became painfully clear that Kate was cut off surrounded dependent for survival on whatever decisions I made next. There would be neither rescue nor reinforcements anytime soon. For the first time since I arrived on Kate, I began to consider abandoning the hill. Do not misunderstand me, I'd come here to fight. My Monten yard strikers had come to fight and had done so individually and collectively with great distinction. Some of the artillery men had joined them and had acquitted themselves well, inspiring one another with their valor, no less than they inspired the strikers. No matter how tough things got, I never considered anything except finding a way to hang on. With each attack, I concentrated on what we needed to survive it and did the same for the next one. We regrouped, redistributed our ammo, moved our machine guns, shifted a squad here and there and schemed to get more supplies and ammo. Even so, now I had more than dozen strikers dead in body bags. I would never surrender. I never even considered it. But now our artillery pieces had taken so many direct hits that they were a little more than scrap metal. We were defending an impact area, nothing more. Again, ammo was dangerously low. The water buffalo had been emptied and our water supply dwindled to what remained in our canteens. Any chopper pilot bold enough to try resupplying us stood a better than chance, even chance of being blown out of the sky. I had to begin thinking about if and how we could safely abandon Kate. Right on cue, the leaders of the Indige Force came to tell me that they were leaving. They had discussed it among themselves and agreed that Kate could no longer be defended and that we would very soon be overrun. After talking to Smith and Zollner, I went to see the Montignard leaders. Through an interpreter fighting through the language barrier, I told them that they were right, that it was time to leave, but that we should leave with air cover. We should wait until full darkness. We should leave altogether. They discussed this right in front of me, but in their own language, and after a few minutes their spokesman replied, they would wait, we would all leave together. Through Boo Prang, I communicated with Major Bryden and he agreed that his force would send a small element, perhaps a platoon, to infiltrate the area to the north end at the base of Ambusch Hill. They would guide us back to the main force, dug in several kilometers away. Even then, I didn't want to leave Kate, but I had to consider the facts. Our howitzers were useless. The enemy was zeroed in on every one of our bunkers. Many had taken multiple hits. Some had collapsed or were partly so. Our physical defenses were crumbling. 15 of the original 27 artillery men on Kate had been wounded and one of their replacements, Ross, was dead. About a third of my original 156 ended strikers, which included the platoon reinforcements had been killed or wounded. We had ceased to be a fire support base. A few more artillery shells and our cratered hilltop would look like the surface of the moon with about the same population. I saw no choice but to send an encrypted message to Special Forces Command declaring the situation untenable and requesting permission to abandon Kate. Their reply was swift and directly to the point. Permission to abandon denied. One thing, and it's really not in there, but the yards did, they said, we gotta get out of this place, right? I said, okay, let me, so I got your input and I went and talked to the artillery guys, the NCOs and Danny Pirelli always. And basically I had a little meeting and I said, we have three options with the yards. We have three options, one surrender, which we're never gonna do. Two, to die in place, but to what end? You know, we're not the Alamo gathering time for Sam Houston to raise an army. Or three, we're going to attempt to break out of here. And we are gonna go with three. Now again, as we discussed earlier, touched on, it wasn't a vote. It wasn't a vote, it was a decision that leaders have to make after taking console. I knew what the yards wanted, but I wanted to hear what the others have the suggestions. And once that was made, once they had their input, then the decision was firmed up and made. And it had to be made by me, because I was in command, I was the leader. Rise or fall, good or bad, all annihilated on the hill, going out, it was all on me. And that's what a leader does, and you know that. And it's an awesome responsibility, but that's what you're trained for. Yeah, and I mean, after this many days, and this many wounded guys, and no guns available, and no support available, and no resupply available. I mean, this is a worst case scenario. And I think what was good, and this is a classic thing, I tell people all the time, if you want people to listen to you, you gotta listen to them. And so for you, if you would have said, hey, Montanards, we're staying until tonight. They might have said, oh, actually, we're out of here. But you listen to what they had to say, and you presented your case, and now you get, when you listen to people, they listen to you as well. And you start explaining, listen, you can leave right now, but tonight we're gonna have gunships overhead, and they're gonna lay down awesome fire, and we're gonna be able to maneuver together. So you explain those things together to them, and then they understand your position, and they recognize that the best decision is the one that you're presenting. Option three, let's stick together and leave as a unit. Yeah, it was not an ultimatum by any means. It was more like, hey, we gotta get out of there. There's no hope left. We all wanna leave, we all wanna leave now. It was by no means a demand. But it just happened to be, I'm thinking the same thing. We're on our own. We're 100% on our own. If anything's gonna happen, it's gonna happen here. The Calvary is not gonna write in and get us out of this one. Yeah, that's actually now I think back to the conversation that you had with them. And you actually start off with one of the best leadership moves to start this conversation. They present their case, and you say, you guys are right. They think, we gotta get out of here, and you go, you guys are right. And they go, okay, so he's on our side. As opposed to like, you got, no, we shouldn't leave. It's like a little subtle thing that you did as a 21-year-old out there in the field, your first time in combat. Like that's the kind of leadership where people go, okay, that makes sense. You present your case to me, and I tell you, you're right. I agree with you. How can we do it best? And that's just like a black belt chest move to make that happen and get them on board. Because these guys are near me. I mean, maybe I'm in my own mind, but this could be a mutiny situation, right? If they- Yeah, I suppose it could have been. If they didn't respect you. Like let's say you didn't run down and grab their wounded point, man. Let's say instead you sent two guys down there, or you left them behind. Then their respect goes down a little bit. Let's say you weren't taking risks as you're trying to reposition the perimeter. Their respect for you is going down. Like all these things, you had built up leadership capital with them in respect, where when you said, hey guys, here's where we're at. They viewed you as a, not just a leader on paper, but not just a leader by rank, but a leader, like a tribal leader that has stepped up and we are going to follow. And that's a powerful thing. It's a powerful thing. And they understood that their welfare and my welfare were tied together. And my welfare, the men, and that we weren't two entities, mountain yards and Americans, we were one group together. And they were getting that. Meanwhile, you get told no, you can't leave. Yeah, let me tell you a quick war story. And you know the difference between a war story to fairy tale? No. Fairy tale starts out once upon a time. War story starts out, this ain't no shit. Well, this ain't no shit. So I am working with Marvin, and it was a cold winter night. We're back and forth. We're documents back and forth. And I get to this part here and I read it. And it's the break in one of the parts of the book. And it comes back, request permission to abandon Firebase Gate. And we're pretty swiftly permission denied. Now, I know how this is gonna end, but that's where it stops. And I pushed back in my chair and it's about 10 30 at night and it's snowy and it's cold and it's winter. I am shaking. My hands are kind of trembling. And I'm like, it all came back. It all came back. And I got up and I went into the bedroom. I, Mary was reading a book. I said, Mary, where's the ambient? Yeah, that was the first time that I had to deal with that. Because, I mean, no, seriously. Yeah. Yeah, it's another thing we were talking about before. It's like the leader on the front, is always right. The patent said, I forget who you quoted, just similar quote of like, the person that's on the ground knows what's happening and you need to try and provide them with support. And by the way, when you've lost a helicopter and you've lost multiple people and these guys are surrounded and they've been fighting for four and a half days and they asked permission of leave because the position is untenable, you might wanna listen to what their request is. Fast forward a little bit. High above Kate at an altitude beyond the range of even the Pavens, Spiffy, New 37 millimeter ACAC guns, the three star commander of I force Vietnam and his aid were circling in a Huey fitted out as a command and control bird. Lieutenant General Charles A. Corcoran who answered only to General Abrams, boss of all US forces in Vietnam and its waters, had received my classified message. So this guy had heard that you wanted to leave. General Corcoran who has a boy had roamed the streets of Laredo, Texas to creed that he would be known in the air as Pawnee Bill, a reference to Gordon W. Lilly, a Wild West show performer and contemporary of Buffalo Bill Cody. Pawnee Bill Alpha was Corcoran's squeaky voiced aid recalls denote and this is another guy telling the story. Pawnee Bill Alpha called Bill Albrocht, Hawk from way high over Kate. We use several different frequencies at Brew Prang camp, but for whatever reason, Pawnee Bill couldn't communicate directly with Hawk denote continues two or three times, Pawnee Bill came back on the air with the same fucking request to verify the size of the surrounding force or the force surrounding fire base Kate. So I got on the frequency identified by myself by call and said, Pawnee Bill Alpha, if you don't believe them, drop your fucking helicopter 10,000 feet and take a look for yourself out. And the rock on the note, what a guy. Stud and the voice that came back, a voice that sounded like God said, this is Pawnee Bill, Roger copy out. Somebody at the radio bunker said, you fucked up. I said, what are they gonna do? Relieve me and send me to the not trying so I can surf and eat the Dairy Queen. Shortly after that exchange, the order was given for fire base Kate to execute and escape an evasion. That's freaking insane story. The fact that this three star was above you and happened to know what was going on. And then of course he's asking you to verify the number of forces and the radio man says, come see for yourself, motherfucker. Well, two things. Number one, they were all continually asked us for BDA, bomb damage, how many people we killed. Then that was insane. The second thing was in Vietnam, at that particular time, country wide, there was nothing else going on of any note, nothing of any note. This is where the NBA had all their forces. And that is why he was up there. Other than that, you never see a three star venture out. And he was God. Yeah. So you guys get the permission that you need. Fast forward a little bit. I gathered everyone together, Strikers and Artillerymen in the vicinity of Kate's North End, the only slope that could easily be traversed, the one from which we had taken the least amount of enemy fire. It was dark and the sky was clear, slightly more than a half moon would rise at about 2,300 hours. By then I wanted to be long gone. We got busy with preparations to move through our own wire and then through enemy lines. In my heart of hearts, however, I believe that we were merely dead men walking. I didn't see how it would be possible to evade the thousands of Phaven troops roaming the hills and valleys surrounding Kate. I kept such thoughts to myself as I circulated among the artillery men, telling them how we would jump, how we would join up with the mic force near the bottom of ambush Hill, that everything was under control, that if we stuck together and didn't panic, we'd all be fine. After I explained our situation, I told everyone what to do to prepare to escape Kate and evade the enemy. So you got 100, 100 and something, 30 or 40, 50, yeah. You got these artillery men who are not infantry men. They ain't been through the jungle school. They ain't been out practicing patrolling. They're gonna do the best they can, but this is not the force you choose to go on this operation with. When you gotta go to war with your army, you got. And meanwhile, you're entirely surrounded. The whole place is crawling with these North Vietnamese troops. This is a bad situation. Couldn't be any worse. And couldn't be? But yeah, again, it did get worse. I had Pirelli and some of the artillery guys to finish the howitzers with thermite grenades, devices that burn white hot, generating enough concentrated heat to melt the barrels, harden steel. Canineers call this spiking a tube. Apparently this rarely used procedure. So this is, they take thermite grenades and put them into the artillery to ruin them. Yeah, just in case. Just in case they can ever rehab them. But this is a dire situation. Like this, like you say, doesn't happen very often. Yeah, because we don't get overrun very often as Americans. We also use thermite on the artillery units, heavy communications equipment, the useless 50-cali machine gun, the FADAC computer, the generators, and all the documents. I decided it would be hard enough to get everybody off Kate in one piece and then survive a night march of several miles, at least through trackless triple canopy jungle. It would become impossible with the added burden of carrying our dead. It was unfortunate, but I decided that the needs of the living outweighed the respect and courtesies of our do-do, our departed comrades. We would have to leave the dozen or so dead strikers stacked on Kate's helipad. Let me say something about that. The dead you take with, if you can. It wounded you, never leave without them. But you see, the dead are gonna be just as dead tomorrow. And there's a good chance you can live through it. As much as I would want to, it becomes impossible. And even when we lost a very good friend of mine, Rich McDonald, Fourth Battalion Commander, Danny Little went down, American, at Doc Siang. And the yards came back carrying his rifle and they said he got stitched from one end to the other, part of his head, and he's dead. But they're mountain yards. And now Americans had some fall and they thought they couldn't bring him back. He was too big too. Rich monitored a tremendous counterattack to get back and recover Danny's body. And he was brutal and he started taking casualties and he had to pull back. Because you don't take casualties or get somebody killed to recover a dead body. Because as I said, they're gonna be just as dead tomorrow as they are today. And it's a wonderful thought. But when you start losing people for that, that will not happen. Yeah, yeah. And they don't want you to take that risk for their body. Your friends do not want you to lose more guys to recover their body. Leave me. Leave me. And that's what everybody's attitude is. Still, I mean, definitely a very harrowing decision that you have to make. Not what we wanna do, but in a situation like this, you have to make decisions. Again, this is leadership. Fast forward a little bit. And you go through the preparation and stuff. And then I gave the order and we moved out. Go ahead. Give me a minute to actually move. There was one piece in there, a seminal moment of the whole thing. We were hovered on the north side of the hill of Kate. It was so dark and it was quiet. I have everybody. And now for the first time, I'm not doing anything. Spooky's coming in, cause Spooky's supposed to come in and they're gonna spray in front of us. And I thought, you know, this is good. They're gonna be about a hundred yards ahead of us, spraying and we're gonna be walking behind this wall steel. Spooky's on it. I'm waiting for it to come on. Hey, Hawk. Remind me how you got my call sign. Hey, Hawk, this is Spooky 5-8. Hey, I got a little problem here with mechanical. I gotta go back, but don't worry. We got a second Spooky coming. Oh, I gotta wait longer. We're ready to go. We are ready to go. And, uh... And Moon's coming up at 2,300. So you got that coming too. Yeah. I call Spooky, where are you? Hey, Hawk, this is Spooky 5-6. Hey, you got some engine problems. We gotta go back to Fan Rain, but don't worry, another one's coming. Well, Hawk is worried now. Okay, this is the third one they're sending out. And it's getting really bad. And I'm waiting for the third one. And I... I mean, guys are going around saying, hey, if I get out of this, tell my mother this, or my wife this, and they're saying their final goodbyes. We are so scared. We are scared now. But for the first time, the first time I am so scared. I'm not doing anything now, but waiting. To take action. And I got on that microphone, that Prick 25 mic, and I depressed it. I called Spooky 401, Spooky 401 Hawk, empty air. Spooky 401, had a whisper. Hawk, over, nothing. And I had comms with him before. And I looked at my radio operator, Tex, artillery guy, and I said, this damn radio's broken, he goes, sir. You gotta release the push to talk switch. And I looked down on my hand, and my knuckles and my hand were white. I was so scared, I had pressed down on that, and to speak and forgot to release it so I could receive. And I released it right away. They're like, hey, we're coming. I don't know how long it'll be, but we're coming to you. Are you there? And I went, holy shit. If I don't get ahold of myself, if I panic right now, not only am I gonna get myself killed, I'm gonna get everybody here killed. And that's when it hit me. And I looked down into the night, and I saw that gap in the distance. And I said, I'm gonna die tonight. And that is where the gods are gonna take my life, right there at that gap. And I looked up into the cosmos, to the big ranger. And I said, dear Lord, I know I'm gonna die tonight. I know that. There's no way I can't. But please, please let me get as many of these fine young men out as possible. And then take me and I'll be ready to go. And Jocko, at that moment, at that exact moment, I was no longer afraid. All of a sudden I had this inner peace, and I was no longer afraid. And the situation had changed a bit, and Spooky hadn't got there. And I said, let's go, follow me, here we go. And we stepped off into the night. Well, yeah, waiting is way worse than doing. Like I've always found. Waiting is way, is where you feel fear. You know, it's where you start thinking about stuff. Once you're doing it, you're doing it. Like we don't have time to think about it. You're just doing it. And so you're caught up in doing it, and you do the thing. And when it's over, sometimes you look back and go, damn, that was sketchy. I don't know how I got through that one. But the waiting, and especially when you're waiting in a situation like this, like you have no choice. There's no turning back. You guys already spiked all your barrels. Like everything is gone. You're not gonna live another night or another day, another sunrise on Kate. That's not happening. So there's no going back. There's only going forward. You might not have air cover and you're waiting. And that waiting is horrific. The call sign hawk, that was like an evolution. That kind of became hawk, right? How'd that happen? Well, because the Asian NBA, or they'd have good English speakers and everything. And they would, so they would, they'd monitor our nets and sometimes interfere with them, you know, send false messages. So they'd take ridiculous call signs. Like my first call sign going out there at Kate was chicken wolf, chicken wolf. And there was dashing lancer and all these crazy things they put together. You know what I'm talking about. And I am day two. I'm in fighting position and I'm calling and talking to the Ford air controller. And Walter once says, hey, I gotta go refuel, but don't worry, I got a guy coming. Guy coming to be in a couple of minutes. He's coming right behind me. And I said, okay, and I'm, I'm again called chicken wolf. So I hear a guy come on and he goes, chicken hawk, chicken hawk, Mike A2. And I'm going, oh, the fuck is chicken hawk? And why would they put somebody that close to the name to mine? This is my first time, okay? And I'm calling, who is this guy? And he goes, chicken hawk, chicken hawk, Mike A2. And I was like, well, wait a minute. I said, Mike A2, this is chicken wolf. In the meantime, the world has come to that. We're getting martyred in rockets and all this boom, boom, boom. I said, this is chicken wolf. And he goes, ha, ha, ha, ha, little joke, right? Oh, I thought your call sign was chicken wolf. Yeah, chicken hawk. And I said to him, call me chicken wolf, chicken hawk, or chicken shit. I'm just getting some goddamn air power in here now. Well, it went to chicken hawk, and then it just got shortened to hawk. Jack. Yeah. You know, the other thing thinking about this, the overcoming of fear is like that full acceptance of death, which to me is of the most liberating thing. And I always, you know, when I'd see guys that were have that fear, it was a lot of times I think, oh, they're afraid of dying. Whereas once you go, eh, I'm pretty much gonna die. That's what's gonna happen. And that's what I signed up for. And that's what we're doing. Okay. And it really does relieve you of a lot of that fear. Cause what else is there? You know? Oh, it's a real come to Jesus moment. No. Real time come to Jesus moment is happening. So now we get to this point. I gave the order and we moved out, but for after 40 or 50 meters, the line stopped. I worked my way to the front and found up the point man 20 meters from the gap leading to ambush hill frozen with fear. He was unable to move forward. Spooky was still too far out to fire and clear our path. The enemy was on our heels. I must act immediately. I moved up and took point. There you go. Fast forward. I got on the radio call and called the mic force element waiting below us to advise them that we were about to enter their perimeter. No answer. A moment later, SAS major Brighton, the commander of both mic force battalions in the vicinity replied from Boo Prang. No mic force troops awaited us below ambush hill, he said. They were miles away to the Northwest and we'd have to find them. God, that's freaking ridiculous. Well, you think so. No air power. Nobody thinks so. Could it get worse? Well, yes it could. I was pissed, but before I could react to this shocker, the great green balls of fire came hurtling down the slope just overheads and stuttering and the stuttering roar of heavy machine gun broke the silence. I thought Spooky was firing on us. I yelled cease fire into the radio. The Sky Raider pilot came back on that Spooky was not firing and wasn't on station yet. Then through the foliage, I saw that the fire was coming from the top of ambush hill. And this is one of those, you know, kind of lucky situations where their dish gun machine gun wasn't traversed, couldn't traverse and actually hit you guys. You got very lucky there. The tripod had that bar in the front. Yeah. And we were down deep enough where that that would shoot about a foot over our heads. Now, if that isn't the hand of God, I don't know what is. And what their tactics was, we couldn't find out later, was they wanted us to go through the gap and we had broadcast in the clear because the Air Force didn't have our codes. I would go to the to the left of ambush hill, to the left. And that's where they were waiting. And the mic was supposed to be there, but they weren't, of course, as we know. I would go to the left, but see when I was studying in the gap and was shooting guys, come on, let's go, let's go, let's go. The point man, now back on point, went to the right of ambush hill. And he took us around that ambush, not even knowing it was there. So that machine gun at top had to traverse around and shoot us at the other side. So as bad as it was, we caught a clean, good break. Again, I always say by the hand of God, because that's the only thing I get to think of. That's the only way you're getting out of that. That's the only way and no mic force. And my Lord chaos isn't the word that is good enough to describe what happened next. Because I am putting them in 150 guys into the jungle single fire, into this horrible wooded jungle at night. And I put him in, let's go, let's go, let's go. And then the firefight breaks out and we return fire. We're now in a battle with this guy. And I'm still trying to get in there. There is no silence. And God, let's go this way. Come here. I'm in a jungle. Danny's kicking him in the ass in the rear. And we get him in there and by God, we did get him in there. And of course, that's my family. There's no mic force to link up to. OK, good, fine, let's go. And we get away and we get away. And I got him in a single file. And I went back to the lieutenants and the yards. Do we have everybody? Oh, yeah, yeah, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Off we go. I have I have a red filter flashlight, a map and a compass. And just echo, Charles, have you ever been on a patrol at night in the thick jungle? Me, no, I have not. Well, let me tell you something. Having having a squad of eight guys going through the jungle is like really hard to control. You literally can't see like the hand in front of your face. Having like 20 guys, it starts to turn into a like I really this is just I can barely even know what's going on right now. So now when you're talking about 150 guys. With a language barrier, by the way, like this isn't you think about the language. You don't think much of it. But that language barrier, we work with Iraqi soldiers like you can't say move left or move right. Like that's when you said that when I read that in the book, I'm like, oh, yeah, no surprise. Iraqi soldiers didn't even have like words for left and right. No, and numbers. You couldn't say like 20 or 30, not all of them, but a lot of them were uneducated. The yards are not like an educated crew of people. So you got the language barrier and then you're just 150 people deep. You cannot explain how how challenging that is. You can't explain it. It is so challenging to try and get it be challenging to move 150 people. I'll tell you what, Echo Charles, take 150 people and get them to go from one end of a mall to the end of a mall. Just try and do that. You can barely do that. So this is a tough. And now, by the way, we got people shooting at us with machine guns. This is a total. This is this is the difficult as it gets. And by the way, this whole thing is going to culminate. In what I believe to be the most difficult thing to do in combat, which is link up under fire. Linking up under fire, people, people don't think about it. That is the hardest thing to do in combat, trying to get two friendly units that don't know where each other are to link up while there's bad guys. And at night, at night, it is it is because everyone, you know, the possibility of blue on blue, there's so many things that go wrong. It's just it's a nightmare. So that's where we're at. Fast forward a little, despite the ineffectiveness of their fire, those frightening green traces caused the men in in our column to panic. Men began crashing pale mel through the brush. I raced ahead to take lead, the main body yelling for them to continue northward along the tree line. As I had a little earlier, I grabbed every trooper I could find and pushed him in the direction of the column behind me. Pirelli was doing the same. Then fast forward a little bit. Once I found the head of the column, I moved as quick forward as quickly as the darkest and train would allow. After several minutes, I stopped to regroup and assess the situation. I still expected to link up with a might force, but no longer share where we were or where they were. Because that's another thing, the disorientation that you get in the jungle is happens very rapidly. And because the maps and the terrain, you can't even see it. So you think you're, oh, I'm on this no, but that was that no wasn't even on the map. You just think you just thought it was something or you thought it was a ravine. That ravine didn't show up anywhere. So now you're just in ravine that's not marked anywhere in the world and you're in it. And you think it's three ravines over. Like there's so many complications here. It's ridiculous. Yeah. It's horrible. Oh, man. Now, again, I'm going to fast forward, get this book so you can understand this. How insane this is fast forward. But I waited another few minutes, then called Mike force again. This time they sent the coded grid coordinates of their position. I could only hope that they were as good at map reading as I thought I was. And my signal to column resumed its slow, stealthy trek through the jungle. I navigated by compass, stopping from time to time to check the azimuth. And keeping a rough count of my pace is to give me some idea of how much ground we had covered, except for an occasional glimpse of the starry sky. We're in almost total darkness. Each step I took was slow and deliberate. My boot shot toes felt for the ground trying to avoid a route that I might trip over or making noise, crushing a twig. Fast forward about three hours after leaving Kate. The moon rose pouring cold, bright light on the jungle clearings enough to allow me to view the terrain features and get a better feeling for our approximate location. We seem to be close to where we I had supposed we were. I altered course slightly and we moved out again, still exercising the greatest caution. Bright as the occasional clearing and small openings in the jungle canopy were beneath the thick rainforest vegetation was like wearing sunglasses and a coal mine. About two 30 or more than six hours after leaving Kate, we reached a point on my map that I judged to be close to the Mike force perimeter. So you finally get there by by the most awesome land navigation skills ever displayed. And if you're not going to credit a little grace of God to that one, I will do it for you. Yeah. So now you call the Mike force guys, you you ask them, hey, put like I can see a clear about an 80 yard field in front of us. Yeah. And you're like, OK, put a guy out there. And what do they say back to you? You put a guy. So, of course, again, leadership, what do you do? Do you send one of your other guys out there? Do you send a yard out there? Nope. You know that it's going to be a risky thing. And you take the risk yourself. Fast forward a little bit, feeling naked in the moonlight, my weapons my weapons slung over my shoulder. I stepped into the field realizing as I did so that even if I was walking straight toward the Mike force, there could also be a thousand guns pointing at me from the jungle on either flank. I took a step forward. Then another calling as I went in parade ground for voice. I'm an American. Are you the Mike force? I repeated several times as I moved across the field. There was no answer. I kept calling and I kept walking. Finally, I reached the tree line and there to my left, a Mike force striker stared back at me from a foxhole. Sergeant First Class Lowell Stevens, the Mike force ground commander appeared from nowhere to grab my arm. Go back and get the rest of your men, he whispered. So the link up happens. He lowell Stevens, a soldier, a soldier, special forces, him and the other sergeant, I can't remember his name right now. They were they were magnificent and they got there and they did the best they could. They fought like banshees and then were driven back and they just couldn't get anybody out because of the it was there was so many in there. We were we were sure fortunate to be able to link up with them. And I'm going to close out the book. Let me say one thing. There's a quote by a sort of the century, 19 to 20 author, a poet, female baker and it stuck with me for all my years. It's about courage and you have to have courage. And I had showed courage and my men showed courage. But her quote was courage is fear that has set its prayers and that is so very true. So when we had to link up there, we went ashore that when we got linked up. I was pretty much out of the game. I was unbelievably exhausted mentally, physically, and they the bike force took over. They put us in the sandwich and they led front and back and I just tagged along. I could hardly keep my eyes open, but that was that was the end of it for me almost. And I'll close out the book with this. Once you resumed our march, my exhausted mind slid into autopilot. I left everything to the special forces noncoms that led each Mike Force Company, Sergeant First Class Stevens and Sergeant First Class Don Simmons, Simmons, both 10 year army veterans. Most of the remainder of the march is a blur in memory. The only thing I can recall from after the link up and our subsequent departure was that we came out of the jungle and took a dirt road for a short distance to Camp Boop Rang arriving there about 1130 hours on November 2nd. When the camp came into sight, I was jolted into full consciousness and then infused with a fleeting moment of pride. One of the artillery sergeants, one that had seen very little of one that I had seen very little of during the fight called out, hold your heads high, man. Be proud. We just walked off fire base, Kate. Yeah. Just and, you know, from there in the book, you do such a great job. You know, you detail all what happened with people afterwards. You know, you talk what it's like for those guys and the families of guys that were killed. It's just it's just really awesome. And one of the things that I guess it's a whole nother book, but you get done with this where you barely get out of there alive. And instead of you taking a cush job somewhere instead. And, you know, you might have only passed that officer candidate school test by one point and we might know why. Because instead of taking a cush job, you say, no, I actually want to volunteer to go work with Mike force. Well, there's a story behind that too. Let's go. So, uh, I'm back and it was a big, big media event because like I said, nothing was going on Vietnam the time. And here you have these guys who are totally surrounded and they 150 of them get out. And so as the media was everywhere and it made a big splash and I was kind of overwhelming to me, like, okay, enough's enough. Well, the group commander, I am Mike Healy. He was going to fly out to personally congratulate me. This, this is not done. Okay. So, uh, he said, Hey, he's coming in now. I'm shaved. I'm in clean fatigues and my team is back in back of me and he flies in and, uh, in, in, in serve captain over and he hugs me. Men didn't hug back then. Okay. He hugs me. He was God damn it all. Brack finest traditions of special forces. I can't believe what you do there. Legendary. He's, what do you want to go? What do you want to do? What do you want to be? And remember he had made mention that they're in the Trang headquarters. It was actually an ice cream store, which we just all consider. We always called it the dairy queen. Oh, you're going to back in the train and get a dairy queen. So I listened. I said, sir, I'd like to be the OIC. Oh, officer in charge. I'd like to be the OIC of the dairy queen. And my men behind me said, Oh, laughing and I'm smiling ear to ear. He looks at me because there's a lot of people around. He looks at me and he goes, I'm afraid that this is already taken. What else do you want? I said, Oh, I'd like to have the two core mic for done. Did a bow phase go on? Helicopter flew away. Never saw him again. So that was that. How long did it take you to recover from this, these five days? Well, consider I'm 21 years old and, uh, there was alcohol involved. Well, what happened is about four days later, then it's called, uh, in Vietnam, they had this thing called impact. And what they would do is they would give you a metal, uh, for whatever the occasion was, whatever you had done. And then they'd back it up with paperwork. And if need be, they would upgrade it. It was used never really downgraded. So one particular day about a week later, Rocco denote the guy that told Pona, he built it, land the fucking helicopter. He says, Hey, he says, uh, Cochran, the three star has requested your presence in Bami to it. He says there's going to be a ceremony and, uh, and it was so windy. Every helicopter was grounded. Not even Medivax flow. So like I said, Pony bill being God. Well, apparently he outbrinks mother nature too, cause he sent a helicopter out for me and I'm there and it's windy and this chopper's coming in and he lands. And the captain all breaks. He says, this is you. We're taking you back to the Bami to it. I said, okay. And just, she's just about then the Mike force who had been around us, uh, engaging cause he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, cause the enemy had followed back to boot prank with them under siege had brought in, uh, about three or four badly, badly wounded, uh, mountain yards. And, uh, they said, we've done all weekend. Our medic there was really good. Had a dispensary. He said, there's nothing I can do. And they said, if we don't get these guys to the hospital, they're going to die. And so they, the Mike force guy, and I don't remember who he was, just, can we use your helicopter? I looked up, I said, can we be, you just go to the helicopter for it. I said, sir, this is your helicopter. And I said, let me see, go back to an award ceremony or four guys die. I'll tell you what, load them up. And here we go. And we flew back and we got them to the, uh, the area hospital. And I think one did expire, but three of them were live when they got them in. And I think they did recover. But then when I got to the award ceremony, just in time to see the general's helicopter fly away. And the guys that come out and go in, they are tellery guys, you're married, what the hell were you at Perly? I said, oh, I got, I got held up. And, uh, and they said, oh yeah, the general was waiting for you. And then didn't get pissed off and flew away. They said they had an award for you. And I went, I'm sure it'll catch up with me. What did in 2012. But that's another story. So we all went out, all of us enlisted officers, sergeants, NCOs, whatever. God drunk right there. And somebody's, somebody's bunker. And that was a good damn night. Metal or no metal. That was a good way to night. And then, uh, so your next move was to go with Mike force. I did. I stayed there for the siege of Bupreng. They, the, the same group followed a 66 and 28. And you know, I told you they followed us back to Bupreng and they put Bupreng under siege, but they had significantly been, uh, weakened. We knocked out about 20% of their strength with all those air strikes. So they, they were significantly wound a weekend, but it was a pretty good one. Then they were, they did some ground attacks and, oh my God, at Kate, they would come out of the jungle. Hundreds of them would come out of chopper pilot was said later that he was up there watching at Kate when, uh, in between strikes. And he said, it looked like, oh, it was when the, uh, they were going to drop the B 52s and everybody had to back off. He said they, they're hundreds of them came out. It looked like ants calling up the hill, hundreds of black ants. So they, they, they came in the Bupreng and they put late seats to us, but we, we held good. We, we never really were in a critical moment of anything. So we were able to repel them there. How long did that last for? That lasted from November, got back to November 2nd to right about a week before Christmas, maybe 10 days. Yeah. Yeah. And, but you had water and you had ammunition. And overhead cover everything, everything you could possibly want. We had artillery, we had all the stuff. And, uh, so then, and then I got my, I was came in and I, um, caught a flight up to a plate coup and, uh, the two core mobile strike force, the mic force. And then how was the op tempo up there with those guys? You know, okay. So you, you certainly can understand this being a seal. Special forces. Absolutely the same. So I had my, I had my face, face all over the media. I mean, this thing was this thing, I was in news week and time and there was, uh, it was on every front page newspaper, every free thing, a picture of me and the story of firebase cake. I gotta say it didn't mean much to me because I'm still inviting into war, but it was like, Oh, look at who we're getting here. We're getting this young captain who thinks he's all that in a bag of chips. Right. I kept a very low profile. And once the guys saw, I actually went, when I went to my first op out for 30 days, came back, I was like, yeah, this guy's okay. He's okay. But I had some like, they're all kind of giving me the, uh, hey, how you doing? Uh, you know, when are you selling your movie star contract? Oh, this bullshit. You know, I said, look, I had nothing to do with that. But once they understood that, especially in my first op, uh, it was, I had found a home. I, I, this was the best goddamn unit ever been in my life and not that it didn't, that many of them, but everything was exactly has it, is it should be. And we went out and so I ended up becoming a battalion commander and I had 450, 400 mountain yards, an A team of enlisted guys who were the best you could ever be. And remember, sog goes out and looks for them. Oh, once they found them, we were, we went out and kicked their ass. But then again, sometimes it didn't really work out where they were, we got our ass was kicked in too. So it was the best. So, so you're an A team leader, but you have all these modern yards, 450 modern yards. So you're a battalion commander. You got a three companies or four companies worth of maneuver elements, all these platoons. How freaking cool is that for a 21 year old kid? I was in heaven. It was the best of the best of the thing in the, in the, in these guys was special ops, special operations. So I had the best the NCO is not that my other NCOs SF NCOs weren't good. These were the best of the best. So they, I learned from them. Again, they mentored me once they understood that I did want to learn from them. And again, I did. And then I made decisions and everything, but I always took counsel with them. Oh my God, they were to this, the best of ever could be now. So three rifle platoons, heavy rifle platoons. You know what our mortar platoons was? One mountain yard carrying a 60 millimeter tube, no base plate, just jammed it in the ground and then, you know, hand fired and everybody would carry ammo for them. That was our mortar plar, our heavy weapons. The one man mortar platoon. And he, he carried, he couldn't carry a rifle, so he carried a 45, which was the envy of every mountain yard there who, you know, he had a side arm at 45. But yeah, that, we'd go out and go out for a month and we tried to develop where the hot areas were. Or in the case of Doc Yang, which was an incredible battle, we went in right into the jaws of the lion. So how'd you guys get called into there? Is it like a QRF, a quick reaction force call that comes out? Almost. We got issues. Almost. And we need help. And then are you guys, Hilo, Hilo in? Yes, yes to everything. Doc Yang was up near the, it was very much, very close to the Laotian border. So it was north of way north of Bupreung and two corps in central islands. These were mountains up there. And the next core up was not that far away. It was I core. So it was a border camp and they, they were in a valley, but it wasn't the, the mountains weren't on top of them. They were in a nice valley with a river. There was a village there. So they were dug in there and Dixon had ordered the army into Cambodia. Camp Boat Incursion and that kicked the shit out of the NV. I mean, they, they had really hurt them bad. So they were doing everything they could to kind of, maybe cause some problems over the guys that come back. So they hit a couple of NV arrangements came down and hit the camp of Doc Siang. And that was a full blown camp, heavy camp. And it was dug in quite well. They're quite, my brother was actually there at one time and they damn near overrun them. They hit them at dawn. No, no idea. There was no intelligence and they just came this close to April 1st, 1970 to overrunning them, but they didn't, they held out. And so the call went out. So that's a for first then. So they went, they wanted to send a mic force in right away. So we had one battalion. I was third battalion. The first battalion, they called the international battalion because it had Australian SAS. Matter of fact, major Beale we made reference to was a different major there then, and he was the battalion commander. Normally battalion commanders of Americans were captains. And then he had another Australian officers and all the rest of them, uh, two of the companies were Australian warren officers. They didn't really use sergeants. They use warren officers. Good ones. And then the other company was ran by an American captain, Captain Raul, good, good guy, and they had American special forces. And then the warren officers that had the other platoons, they also had American special forces sprinkled in there with them, like medics and things of this. That was the international first battalion, good battalion. They dropped them into the back pocket of, uh, of the Dox Yang several miles away. So the NVA are kicking ass out of Dox Yang. I was sitting there and go, Oh, wait a minute. We got a battalion here in our back pocket. So they started turning their resources then. And I wasn't there then. I wasn't there the first day, but Captain Raul got the shit shot out of him. And so they had her and I had gone to the colonel because we all knew what was going on April 1st. And I went to the colonel, Lieutenant Colonel Collins, tremendous officer. I said, sir, I'd like to go in as the first replacement as needed. If, uh, an American officer gets hit. I hardly got back to my bunk. I'll cut it off. Lucky day. I'll come to the top, the tactical operations center. You got your shit back. Yes, sir. Go to hell, Pat. And so I went in on day two and I got with them and it, uh, I think the first day we fought sun up to sundown and we went a hundred yards. Yeah, it was, it was, it was brutal. And we kept just, um, they just continually, continually were throwing shit at us. And again, now being dug in a K just one thing, right? Okay. Well, you're dug in, but when you're on the ground maneuvering in, in the, against the hostile force and they're dug in, well, then that's a different story. Now we're on that end of it, but we did plug away as long as we could. And then we got a situation where we had to, we had to dig in and hold on. And, um, we did. And we, we tried to establish from there and we could actually, um, we were pretty close to the camp at that time. We were told to spread out, but we got this the first place we dug in and kind of set up a base camp for a couple of days. Major Beal was his name and, um, uh, major Brian, the SAS, he was, uh, he was, uh, mentioned in dispatches, which is a big British thing. You know anything I ever heard of that before? Yes, I have. I have heard of dispatches before mentioned dispatch. It's a big deal, big deal in the English and Australian and Canadian army. And that was kind of guy he was. He was just a tremendous guy. Uh, Beal, not too much. Okay. Um, more quiet and they had their perspective of fighting. And he, Beal even wrote this, uh, book and he talked about this badly. He talked about, he said, the Americans are, they're the are, let's go get them and let's kill every one of them sons of bitches. This is where the British or the Australian was more. There they are. Let's think this through. Let's think of the best way that we can bubble that, that, that, that and that. And many, but the Americans are balls of the wall. Well, it really showed. And we weren't making a lot of progress, but I was just, uh, I was just a company commander and we were, uh, getting low on water or getting low on ammo. And they were going to, again, we're having a difficult time getting it in. And he's, and there was a significant amount of NBA attacking us. And on my side of the perimeter, my company, and he was calling in airstrikes and they were bringing in napalm, they're dropping napalm and he kept going closer, closer, closer. And the son of a bitch came right in my perimeter. And I remember I was in my position, my, my company's out here and I'm listening to this on the radio and I'm going, wait a minute. And this ball of orange fire came roaring into our perimeter. And I hit the ground and I put my nose in the dirt again as it went over me. And all of a sudden I couldn't breathe because it sucks all the oxygen out of the air. So I came back up and it was, it was horrible. I had probably 30% of my perimeter had been, uh, better affected. The, the lucky ones died instantly. The ones that didn't, you know, those serratum morphine you give them, I barely took the edge off. It was, it was, it was horrible. So two things had to happen quickly. Well, one had, I had to shrink my perimeter, make up for that gap immediately. But the good news, if there was good news, it did break up the NBA attack because they were out there burning too. So that damn near broke our back, uh, as far as morale and everything. And I remember my team sergeant, Billy Ledbetter, God, he was good. He, um, so we're, we're, we're getting medivacs in the NBA are in disarray too. After this one, cause they did, we did a lot of damage. So we're getting medivac, medivac, medivac, medivac in, and we're probably hauled out 25, 30, 30, uh, mountain yards that were, uh, born in, and you know, the medic Eddie Hill, that was, uh, first on the scene, a special force of medicate. And when we started right, we're trying to write a second book about this. And he said, you're going to make me recount all that whore show again. I said, yeah, if we want to, if we want to pay tribute and I hate to do it. So it was really bad. Anyway, he called us back, um, to the, uh, to little command posts that he had set up within our perimeters. We had platoon, platoon, platoon and, um, things, things were looking bad for the home team and I'm, I'm new to the first battalion. I've only been there now, maybe a week. And I'm with Sergeant Billy Leadbetter, my team sergeant and the Australians had a captain Shilston. Hmm. And then the warrant officers and the warrant officers were great. And he comes in now, this is, this is, I'm telling you the story though. It's hand to God, hand to God. He sits there and the bill goes, well, he says, you know, we're in a bad situation. Yeah. We know that. And we're running along water and run along ammo and, uh, we got some coming in, the, the, the, uh, but we're down now, maybe a 20% of manpower. And we went to one from 450. We're down to 325 or less. And, uh, he said, there's a very, very good try about possibility. We're going to be overrun. We go, yeah, tell, tell me something I don't know. Right. And he goes, so when they do, if they do, actually, I think he said when they do, he says, stand up, throw your rifles down and put your hands up. And I looked at Billy Leadbitter. I had, I had never operated in this battalion before. I looked at Billy Leadbitter like, what the fuck? And he's looking at me and a little short cigar in the mouth. Oh, I said, grrr. And the warrant officers were like looking at each other and this captain Schultz is going, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Yeah, we should do that. That's for sure. The story on him later. And so we're walking back and I'm going, Billy, what, what, he goes, what the hell's going on? He goes, I don't know. He says, I don't know. He's very kind of weak. I said, well, we're going to be dying facing the enemy with guns in hands. And he goes, I know that, I know that. I don't know. And this, this was the orders we got. Well, suggestions, maybe. So it was bad. However, the next day. The fourth battalion inserted on top of us. Captain Rich McDonald, Big Mac brought in 450 fresh troops right out of training, right out of rehab and I rehab it downtime and they landed dead in the middle of our perimeter. So now we went, we doubled our strength immediately. They had water, they had ammo, they were fresh and we dug in and now we were, we were content. Now we were blowing back their attacks. Matter of fact, the blue and back so fast and so quick, we got orders from headquarters that move out, proceed, push to the camp of Dox Yang, which we did. So we took off together the two battalions. Well, by the way, I'm not exactly sure. Oh, no, he was still, was still, so we took off two battalions of my company and lead Mac was up with his lead company. And then we got to the, uh, the Dox Yang would be sit like dead in front of us. And it was a small river. He was given orders to cross the river and go east. And I was to stay west and head around Dox Yang and engaged clear as we went. Now we didn't have a lot. We, you know, they had the most men and that was the least resistance. We had the least men in the most resistance and, uh, we did it as long as we could. We did it for a couple of days and then we got held up on a, and we had to dig in to survive and it had sloping sides, sloping sides, sloping sides. And then one that we wouldn't call it a cliff, but you'd call it a very, very, very steep hill. You could never attack up. There's no way in the world. So we dug in there and we fought. And during that time, major bill chopped it out and he left command to Peter Shilston, Peter Shilston couldn't lead an old whore to bed. And he had some issues and he never got out of his Fox hole. So the command shifted to me. So I was now the battalion commander of the first battalion. So I was making all the decisions, calling in all the airstrikes, calling in all the resupplies and we held on there. And that wasn't as bad as Kate, but you could certainly see Kate from where we were and they kept continuing to get worse. And finally, we, and there's a whole backstory to why it got so bad. There was an NVA hospital dug in this underground hospital, large hospital, not real far from where we were dug in and they were fighting like banshees to protect it. We didn't know that. So I said, we can't hold this anymore. We're just not, you know, they're, they're, every probe they get, every attack they get, we're losing more people and they're gaining more ground. So we've got to, you know, I got a plan once again, a breakout. It was like my, I become known as this, my forte. So I said, this is what we're going to do. We're going to, and I had the Australian warrant officers and everybody was involved in this except for that one particular captain. I tell you a story about him for a minute. We're there and we're trying to figure out how to break out of this thing. And he, he leads his like platoon. He takes a platoon from his company and goes out and gets engaged in this bunkered up area and he's calling for help. I need help. I need, you know, I got there. I said, sure. So I took a platoon from ours and, and I went there with him and there I could see him and he's probably 15, 20 meters away from me. I could see him and I could get up with my people and we spread out and we were in with his people and we started moving forward. I said, I got this. We're going to which they're knocking out bunkers. And I look around now and he's not there. He took his people in the drill. I was like, oh, oh, the second shift is here. Okay. I'm going home now. So I mean, but I've been in the middle of a firefight. So there's a lot I could do about it. So, uh, this is kind of humorous where, where the last bunker, the sun's getting low. We got to clean this mess up pronto. And the last bunker is really fortified. Earthen bunker, probably two feet thick and we're just not getting through to what we bring to it. So I'm to the right of it. And I look at my, uh, one of my yards next to me. I said, I want you to drop your gear, take this grenade, low crawl lump, get underneath that and toss this into the aperture of that bunker. And he looked at me once again, like I had two heads and I said, not a problem. So I dropped my belly led better. I said, I'll do this. And he goes, I'll be fine. And I dropped it, slung my rifle and I, I low crawled around and kept underneath the fire and I got up to that and I'm sad. I'm sitting there with the aperture and I'm going, okay, I know a grenade has like six seconds, right? You know, you pop the pin goes up. So I said, I want to hold this for about four and a half seconds before I throw it in. So they can't throw it out. I pop it, Bing, and one thousand one. Fuck this. And I threw it in and I roll like this to, to get away from the blast. And at the same time, within a second, they threw one of their grenades out, but I didn't see it. And one of my guys was so close. It's called, say it was puppy medic, great guy. Lewis was his name. He goes, ha, grenade, grenade. So two things happened. My grenade went off. American grenade. Oh my God, they're dead. So he killed everybody in there. Their grenade goes up and I felt like I was Superman. I was flying through the air, hands out. And for about 15 feet, then boom, I hit the ground, spread eagle. The guys sweep through and we eliminate that bunker. Poppy runs up to me and I knew I'd been hit. I knew I'd been hit and he goes, hockey says your head. I said, I know that dead, dead in the middle of my back trap. No, he goes, and I'm laying. And he says, can you move? I said, I don't know. And he said, have you tried? And I said, no. And he goes, well, God damn it, try. So I, I wiggle this hand and this hand. I go, I guess, oh yeah, I can't. So, uh, he pats me up and, and, and back we go. Uh, cause it was, it was, it would turn out X-rays is close to the spine, but they said, you know, we're going to leave this here because we don't want to go in and fuck with it. This is 1970, right? Anyway, so the battle continues. And I said, we can't hold this thing. So we're going to stay here. We're going to feign that we're here, but everybody's going off the side of the cliff or the, the very, very, very steep hill regroup at the bottom. Regroup at the bottom. And Charlie Childers, who was, uh, one of my captains, great guy, ran one of the platoons, I was Charlie, regroup them down there and start moving out towards the camp. And as the guys come down, regroup and get, I said, I'll, I'll, I'll go on with you. Well, so we brought them in a piece by piece, piece by piece. We're bringing them. So it wasn't everybody gets up and leaves a perimeter and in a certain order, you know, guys are coming back and they would get to the hill and then they would take the slide for life down this thing. And this probably was about 50 yards down. And so, you know, you, you could try to walk it, but you didn't have kind of bow on your butt sliding. And I said, once again, take only what you need. Take, cause we're going to be fighting and running. So, uh, don't take your, you know, you leave your fucking child and lead, leave your bedroll, leave that, cause this is, we're, we're doing a run for our lives again. So they did. And, uh, I said, take only what you have to have. And my mountain yard, uh, RTO, the radio guy, good guy, good guy. So I get there. I'm on the edge of the hill and the guys are coming past me. I said, yeah, go on down, go on down. And it's daylight. It's about two o'clock in the afternoon, three o'clock. And I'm, I start calling the forward air controller. I'm getting nothing. And I call again, nothing. I looked down, I got no antenna. I looked at the art. I said, where's, where's the antenna? He said, you said to leave everything. I was hoping to get the goddamn antenna. So he runs back and he gets to the short antenna, the one, the bendable one. And I'm putting it on the prick 25 and I'm putting it on there. And in the meantime, guys are coming by me, guys are coming by me, guys are coming by me, they're doing a slide for life. And, and I'm, uh, finally I established contact. I said, yeah, right. Yeah. Hawk, we got you. Yeah. Okay. I said, okay. And I look, I'm the last one there. And through their comp, probably about 20, about 40 meters through, they're coming into our perimeter, they're walking slow. They think we're still there. And there are NVAs walking. So maybe a dozen of them are coming in there. So I said, okay, here's what I need you to do. I'm going to pop smoke and everything to the northeast and that. I said, you need to come in and hit it real quick. Cause they're, they're all, they're almost on me. So he said, Roger, so I popped smoke, sprayed a, I sprayed, I was the only one that had a 30 round magazine. I had acquired that everybody else at the twenties. And I did a spray of that and he came in and just bombed the shit out of those guys that were there and then kept it on. And I slid down and I got a hold, I came up and I found Charlie and they had run smack into a bunker complex. So I said, we don't have time to knock this out. We got a flank around it. So I started, I said, Charlie, take this, go this way. So I started maneuvering the battalion around the bunker complex. So we skirted them. We left enough people there to keep their attention, thinking that we were still there. And then we all withdrew. And in the meantime, the NVA on top side, they're, they're through that and they see what happened. So they're sliding their ass down this hill too. They get to the bottom of the hill. We're not there. So they proceeded in the most likely way to go and they run into the bunker complex. And yet another firefighter rubs. Oh, yeah. Blue on blue. It blew on blue. Nice. They start fighting each other and we're away over here and we're going, yeah, yeah. And so we were able to break out and we got as far as the runway to the camp was all huggered down and they kind of realized it and they, the hot pursuit and we, we engaged again, but we got into the safety of Doxy, then I got wounded the third time. So that's, you've been wounded twice. And I got one to third time. Third time down. What happened there? I went back for a stand down and actually I went on R and R and it came back. Where'd you go on our Thailand or Japan? Well, I, there was this, uh, no, I went to, uh, Hawaii to meet this possible woman that I was very much thought I was in love with. And yeah, Jody, you know, you know what, I, anyway, that didn't work out. So I came back and I went back to the field. Sometimes it's easier just to be in the field. So there's, you want to be in the field. Oh God. Joined up with the guys and we were real quick. Was your brother hearing about all this? Like you're on the freaking cover of Newsweek and all this stuff. Is he going with the hell? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was, uh, Jesus. Cause you remember the family would all go to him. What's going on? Yeah. And he downplayed as much as possible. And was he, so was he active duty while you were out? When I was, he was out then, but it was active duty when I got the brag. When I was in the course. So he was out and now he's seeing all the stuff and he's telling your family like, Oh, it's no big deal. Don't worry about it. He did. My dad gets another letter that, you know, I'm wounded yet again. All right. So you get done with the R and R with incredible R and R in Hawaii. And now you're back again and how'd you get wounded the third time? We were Billy Ledbert and I, we were out and, um, um, we were in for the night and we dug in and we went out to, to take, check out this twilight, twilight to see the, what was out there kind of the route next thing we had, I think it was a mortar came in and caught both of us. It was a ways away, but caught both of us in the legs. So I didn't think much of it. A couple of pieces of strap though in my leg. Come on. So patch that up, but they have to report that shit. And then so the next day we're moving and they, uh, they called and they said, uh, Hawkeye, there's a, there's a helicopter out to get you. And I said, uh, I said, what? They said, yeah, you beyond the helicopter, sitting it out as headquarters. I said, yeah, nothing like this. So it came out and I had some walking wounded. I put them on there and I sent it back without me a little bit later. Hawkeye was in his cell, uh, second helicopter, beyond this. Yeah, Roger. Second one, some other guys I sent out. I said, Hey, bring some ammo with you. You know, so I didn't get on that one either. Third time they said, if you're not on this helicopter, we will court martial you. Damn. Okay. Okay. So I flew back and I was like, what's going on? They said, now I'm back, back as well. Three times. This is where your three times is a charm and you were, we're not going to be, you know, your family says, you know, we already, we, he got wounded three times and you kept him in the field. What's wrong with you? So we don't want to, we don't want to do that. So that was it. My, my combat time was over and I hung up my rifle and picked up a pen. And then that's where you did some staff job for the last few months. The last few months I was in the Trang, whether you, Dairy Queen was no longer there, I might add. And I was a liaison between the first field force Vietnam and, uh, special forces in two core and it was a plum job. I didn't do shit. I gained like 20 pounds. I went from 55 to 75, 175 was at the beach drinking beer and kind of eased my way into civilian life. And you were sure at this point that civilian life was the route you wanted to take? I was sure that I had to get a college education. Okay. I love the army. I loved what I was doing, but I knew, like I said, Ray Charles could see this one coming, the rift was coming. And, uh, I know I was a hundred percent right. And when I graduated in 1975 from Augustana, uh, in Rock Island, um, I called up the infantry branch and said, Hey, I'm thinking about coming back again. I just graduated and they said, well, let me pull your file. And they said, well, you got a good combat record, good officer efficiency reports. What's your master's in? I go, master. So I just got an undergraduate. No, no, no, no, this 75. You have to have a, uh, master's working on your doctorate to get into this man's army now. And they were just, they were just getting rid of guys like crazy. That's so crazy. You got, you got the high school graduate to OCS and now they're saying you can't be an officer unless you're working on your doctorate. Damn. Uh, how was it coming home? How was that transition? You know, when you get back, how was the hippies? What was all that like? I never got bothered by hippies for obvious reasons. I wasn't about to take their shit. And I would, there would, there would have been a lot more fights than I already did have. And, um, my position was, um, nothing wrong with me. I mean, I, apparently I did have some anger issues though. And I ended up working as a bouncer in a bar for a couple of years. And that was therapy. I just, it was just therapy. And, uh, so, but I was, I was a little fucked up. I'll tell you that right now. Let me tell you this. And I talk about this when I speak publicly. So guys like me and veterans in general, guys like yourself, you, uh, when you're no longer involved in that, you take those horrific memories or bad things that happened, nasty things. And I always say, I put them in my mind. I put them, uh, lock them up in a, in a, like a foot locker. And I put those memories in there and, um, wall locker, foot locker, closet, whatever in your mind, you, you nail that son of a bitch shot and you padlock it. Because when I got home, I, I, my friends that didn't serve, you know, they were all, you know, starting on families and education and our apprenticeships or whatever. So I was behind. So I knew I had to, I had to catch up. So I just stowed it all away. But, but sometimes it could be a smell, something you saw, could be a turn of phrase and that, and that foot locker would come up a little bit and someone come out and I was, it hit me and it was like, boom. Oh my God. That memory came right back, right back like a freight train. I didn't climb any tower and start shooting or anything, but I didn't have a meltdown. I just, I just remembered. Okay. Yes. I remember this. I remember this happening and you process it and you process it and you remember it and you think it through and you process it. Okay. Now let's put that back in the foot locker and you put it back in there and you close it, but it just, it doesn't quite go once it's open and never goes back all the way closed. So you, you do that and every time a little bit more. Now this could be once every six months or once every six days. And then 2008 when I was no longer an agent and I was no longer with foreign motor company and I was just doing consulting work, 2008, the locker came open, the foot locker came open. Everything came out, everything. So I sat down and, uh, and started to write about it. Now I had the after action report. I had all the newspaper clippings, all the magazine about it. I had a log that I carried with me every day in Vietnam with little notes in it. And I started to write and some days I'd write for eight hours and some days I'd write for eight minutes, but I wrote in and I wrote the entire battle down as best I could. And that, and that was very cathartic for me as the book has, as the documentary has, it was very cathartic because when, when I came home to say that Vietnam veterans who are unpopular is the understatement of the year. We were maligned. We were baby killers. We were drug, drug addicts. And, and those were some of the better things they said about us. And it was just a really, really tough time to be a veteran, very tough time. Buddy of mine, John Kathman, he was a now retired teacher, but he said, then he was with the CAV in Vietnam, first CAV combat infantry was bad infantryman. He was home in February of 1970. He's sitting at this local gin mill called Halfner's in Moline, Illinois. And he was in the field like, you know, 10 days before. And it's a Friday night. He's waiting for his wife to get off work and it's cold, snowy outside. The guy next to him, busy, busy. Looks at us and says, Hey man, it's a nice tan you have. Where'd you get that? And he says, I looked at him and I thought about it. And I said, this guy back in Florida. And the guy goes, okay, he says, not because I wasn't proud. I didn't serve with him. I know I didn't want to get into it. I didn't want to have to explain this and start from this with somebody who had no idea of what I had just been through for a year. And that's the way we were. We didn't talk about it unless we figured you had been there or knew something or I could relate to it. And then we didn't talk about horrible things. We talked about things that GIs always talk about. And then the other one I always add is in 1996, Rich McDonald, Big Mac, that we stayed close all these years and Charlie Childers too. We went down to Fort Bragg, North Carolina to the conference that they have every year, Special Forces Association. And they had this Mike force reunion there too. And I got to see Lowell Stevens and Simmons again. First time I saw him since Firebase came. Got a great picture in the book. It's in there. And that night they had a formal dinner, suits, tuxes, whatever you want to call it. And I'm in there with Mac and there is Bo Grytes. Now, Bo Grytes is a legend in the FBI and the Special Forces, a legend. He was very well known, very, very well known. And I met him in a trang in 1970 at the officers club, I believe. And I looked, I said, Hey, there's Bo Grytes. I got to say hi. So I went over to him. I said, Colonel Grytes. And he goes, Yeah, I said, Bill Albrecht, I met you in the trang officers club and when you were there and I was in Special Forces too. And he goes, Oh, we met in Vietnam. I said, Yeah. And he shook my hand, he smiled. He said, Welcome home. I had never heard that before. I was dumbfounded. I was like, Ah, ah, ah, and thank you. And now, and of course, I just struck me. I never heard that before. Now, of course, that's the big thing. Vietnam veterans meet each other. It's, it's welcome home because we never got a welcome home ever. And not, I'm not whining and I'm not complaining and I'd be in a baby about this. It's just the way it was. It's just the way it was. And this is what we dealt with. And this is why we had to move on and go from there. And so that's pretty much what you had to do is just, all right, I got to go to school, get a degree. You did, you didn't you do the reserves too? The Army reserves? Yes, I did. I was four years company commander of a leg outfit. Uh, good bunch of guys. And, uh, they said, Well, sir, what do you, what do you think would happen if you took us into combat? I said, Oh geez, I'd lose half you at first day, but the, the half that stayed, we'd be good. And then how'd you end up in the secret service? I was going to, so I was pushing 27 and I was getting ready to graduate from, uh, college and, uh, as a matter of fact, I got to tell you too, when I, when I never been to college, so I started off with the junior college, a black Hawk junior college in Moline, Illinois. And that really got my feet on the ground and got me focused on the way of what I should, how college is and papers and do and cause I didn't have much, much reason to look back on from high school. So then I transferred from there to a four year to Augustana, Rock Island, Illinois, good, good school. So I took it from there. And then when I come time to graduate, well, it was 75 job market was, eh, and I could get a job selling insurance and I can do that. And about just starting senior year, I go, I don't, I don't want to do any of that stuff. And my buddy had applied, uh, was applying for, uh, alcohol tobacco firearms. He said, and, uh, in different state agencies, he said, you know, you ought to, you ought to think about law enforcement. And I never did before. So we did. And the more I got into it, the more I thought, you know, this is really what I need to be. So I shotgunned my applications out to the FBI, the customs, the secret service and ATF and, uh, and waited for a response. And, uh, the eight and the secret service picked it up very quickly. Cause Gerald Ford had just gotten shots taken at him twice, uh, squeaky from Sarah Jean Moore, I should be sad to attempt to set a shot. So they were, they were beefing up and I got, was part of that. So in 1975, October, I raised my right hand and was sworn in as a special agent with the US secret service. How was the screening process and the training for all that? Screening process, uh, was very, very thorough. And, um, in later years, um, I took a job, a part-time job with the secret service as a special investigator and I'd do backgrounds. I'd sit on panel interviews for new hires part time, part time. And it was very, very thorough. And, uh, they, when they went to, I go talk to, Hey, uh, Jaco's my buddy and I put him down as a reference. I go, Hey, Jaco, how you doing? Hey, you know something about Echo Charlie here? Yeah. Great. Okay. You can, they don't come in better. Really? Okay. Who else knows him pretty well. Oh, well, and you give me about three names, two of which I have third one. I don't. Oh, I'll go talk to him. So I talked to the third one because I figured all the ones are good. I'm going to go talk to them, but I'm figuring they're going to, I got to third one. Hey, yeah, it's pretty good guy. He said, and, uh, who else do you think I would know? Boom. So you finally get the people that aren't pre-warned. Hey, they're coming to say good things. So they do it in depth background investigation, of course, drug tests, hearing tests, physical tests, um, all that kind of thing. Now they polygraph them too. They didn't, they didn't when I came on, thank God. And so, uh, that Hawaiian trip would have popped. So there, there, it was a very, very thorough. And now it's even, it's even more, uh, exhausting one. And then I, part of my career, I taught in the academy and that was kind of fun too. So what was your job when you were, you know, when you started off in the secret service? I started off in the Chicago district and, uh, as a new agent, they had these, uh, criminal violations at that time, you know, I don't think that, and there were treasury checks, bonds, securities, stolen, forged, cashed. And this is what you did. It kind of broke your teeth on investigations. They were very low, low profile, nobody liked you, but shit about them to the truth, but it was a good thing, good learning process. And then you did counterfeit money. Ah, now we're talking, now we're talking some great investigations. That was fun. And then, um, threats against the president, the vice president, their families, you would investigate those and things of this nature. Those are the three primaries and then always, always protection. No matter what you're doing, you drop it. But if you're in the field, then you're not going to be in DC, the White House on that inner perimeter. So you're going to be in the field and they'll say, Hey, the president or the vice presidents go into Cincinnati. We need 52 post standards. We need 52 agents and they go, okay, Chicago district give up so many, so many here, so many there and you go there report and say, okay, today you're going to be at this location and this is your job. And then we intermix with, uh, the police and that is paramount importance without the local police and we intermix with them. And so that's what you do. And then after a certain time, then I went from there to New York field office and, um, ended up in the counterfeit squad, which was the elite squad criminal of the entire secret service. Now LA will say they are, but I will argue with that. So we were always in competition, New York and LA was in competition for shutting down, uh, counterfeit plants and we would work a counterfeit case like was murder one and that was, uh, quite the deal. So we did that. And about that time in 79 terrorism was on the rise and they came out and said, you know what, we are going to start an anti-terrorist unit in the secret service. We're going to call them cat counter assault teams. And Ernie Kuhn started putting together teams in the summer of 79 and they started asking for volunteers. They wanted them in the field office because the detailed guys who were with the president and vice president, they're just too damn busy and they don't have enough of them. They tried it, but it didn't work. So Washington field office, LA, New York, we fielded teams and they would have us come out and we went through a then two week course of, uh, and three of us were Vietnam combat veterans and there was tactical motorcade assaults. So the president gets hit or the vice president gets hit and you could do immediate like counter assault. Check. Exactly. And that's kind of stuff you used to do. Yeah. South that's like as good of a job as you could want, huh? Although you gotta, you don't want to be hoping that something bad happens. The president obviously in order to get, to get to do your job. And then how long did you have that role for? Well, um, so there's one criminal work in New York and the counterfeit squad. God, that was the best of times. They worked us like red and mules, though, but we loved it. Uh, and then the cat came in. It was like, it was like playing football in high schools. As long as your grades were up, you could still play football. So we trained and best we could. And then we'd be deployed. And after a while, the special agent in charge of New York said, Hey, hey, they're either mine or yours. We'll make a decision, but you can't be hauling these guys out all the time. Cause we had some very, very good agents. Team would be five or six guys. So they said, okay, we centralized them in 82 down at Washington DC. And that became the special operations of the secret service. So I took the transfer down. I went down and became a, a plank holder on the kind of assault teams as well. So it was like three, three or four teams back then and did that for a couple of years. And now this is where, um, the journeyman level at that time was a GS 12 GS 12 plus 25% pay. The 13 was, uh, was a promotion. Now journeyman levels of 13, which it should have been back then. And I went and talked to after two years in DC, two years, I mean, two years in New York, two years in DC, well, it was a, it was a considered a, a career suicide. To be in cap, stay on cat. Yep. Now it's like, holy shit. That all changed when the, when my partner in New York and my partner, uh, one of my team leaders in DC also special forces, Vietnam became the director of the secret service. Oh nice. Luma, let it great. Great guy. So I went in and they said, Hey, we got you. I said, are you going to make us team leaders? Promoters. Yeah. Well, Bill, you know, we're thinking about that ago. So that's a no. All right. So, uh, I need to get off, you know, you get off, come resolve teams. He goes, uh, okay. We got your slotted to go to PPT president of protection Reagan. I said, no, I don't want to do that. Reagan was 70 plus years old. He didn't like to travel. He liked to go to the ranch and he liked to go to Cam David and he, he, um, he just didn't like to go out and do all these other things. He's didn't like to go for and travel. He just didn't like to do, he didn't care to do that. So that meant his, his agents were not getting the experience of going out and doing advanced work as much as George Bush. George Bush was nonstop travel. Reagan would call him in his office and say, from my lips to your ears, this is what I want you to tell so-and-so. So he was nonstop. So I said, I want to go to the vice presidential detail with George Bush. So I did. So you traveled with him all the time. Oh yeah. Oh my God. Did you ever go to Kenny bunk main? All the time. So I was probably about, I don't know, 10, 12 years old or something like that. And, uh, my dad worked up in Kenny bunk. And so, uh, the vice president was coming and he was giving a speech in like that little port town, like in this little town. And, uh, so my, um, there, my dad takes me to see, you know, the vice president was giving a speech and you know, it's tiny town and like this little square is a very small area. And, uh, so I'm standing there and I can't really see too much because I'm a little kid and I'm also like a punk ass kid, you know, even though I'm only 12 or whatever I am, 10, 12. And so I'm standing there. I can't really see anything. And so then my, my dad gives me a camera and it's, it's like, this is, this is 1980 something, right? I don't know what specific year, but this is, you know, old, like respectful times. Right. These are, these are respectful times and it's a small New England town. Very respectful. And so my dad says, Hey, you know, can you get a picture? I'm like, well, I can't say anything. He's well, and there's a little window sill behind us. And he goes, well, get up on that window sill and see if you can get a picture. And so he gives me a camera and I have a little kid. I stand up there and I get the camera up and, uh, and I go, Hey, George, just like that. I mean, the whole to like, I've got a loud voice anyways. Hey, George. And he, I mean, he can hear clear, clear his day and he like, looks over at me and I click a picture and none of your guys like jumped me or anything like that. Oh God, that's great. That was pretty, uh, pretty funny. I'm sure I, I'm sure I've made a fool out of, uh, you know, my dad and the family, but like I said, none of your guys tackled me or anything. Well, I got a big stay asked. Where's that picture now? I think it's just lost in the history of time, which is a bummer, uh, you know, cause it was probably, you know, just wanted some little cheap, uh, film camera. But I remember seeing the picture, like we got it developed and it's not a spectacular picture because it's not like a telephoto lens. It's like the picture of Abraham Lincoln, given the Gettysburg address. It was kind of like, wait, where is he? That guy, but you could tell us him, you know, his little town circle. You could see him. It was pretty cool, but that's my George W. George. That's my George Bush story. That's a good story. Yeah. He's a good guy. Both of those guys, what you, what you saw is what you got. If you didn't like what their appearance is, probably goes, well, you wouldn't like him in private either. They were just true Americans. Really. It was a, we look back, you know, the secret service is going through some transitions down there, some scandals and things of this nature. Us old guys, um, we hang and we talk and we have to consider ourselves a golden age. We had some of the sharpest, brightest, best guys and some, a lot of these guys want to be captives of industry in a security world and everything. You know, Merletti was up with the Cleveland Browns for years as a VP and so on. But back then, my God, we had good, I mean, competition was incredible. I was going to say, I imagine that just the screening process and not just the initial screen to get in, but like the screening as you go up the chain of command and you get those billets, like how many people do you have to select for in the whole country and then down select for this group and then down select down select to where you're guarding either the president or the vice president. These have got to be like the best, most capable humans we have. It's, uh, it's not quite that much. It's they're going to be looking at you as a field agent. What you do as a field agent and then your different protective assignments because as a field agent, when the, the, uh, Chancellor of Germany comes in to your district, you're going to be the one doing the advance and with the Germans and so on. And they're going to be looking at the kind of work you do. So when your, your, your number comes up, your bill comes up to be transferred and they need people on PPD or VPPD, they're going to be looking at that. Now, if you're some slug, no, got a great story about one guy who was, uh, came to New York. I won't mention his name, but he was very, very much overweight. Now most of those guys very fit PT tasks and all that. It was very, very overweight. And we're like, Oh God, he was from due daddy, Mississippi or something. You know, Hey, how you guys doing? You know, and we're, oh man, this guy, he gets there and he starts going to lock it up the world. He goes out to, to Bedford Stuyvesant of Brooklyn and starts bringing in these Czech foragers. And the next thing I know his new name was a sheriff in New York City. And I go, my God, this guy was good, but he was very much overweight. And the, uh, the boss who got to his God, damn it. You got to lose some weight. You're too stampede. He'll go, Oh no, I know, sir. I know. And then that's the line of her. He's up there. Are you losing weight yet? Son, and he goes, sir, they hired me fat. Well, guy like that. No, but he went to Miami and made a, just, just set up a whole new career of locking people up and, and doing things, uh, organized crime down there. So no, he we're not going to go or somebody of this nature. And then if they get a bad, not a bad app, I don't want to say that, but they get to somebody that doesn't fit in or can't fit in. They won't be there long. Other barrier. And another interesting thing too is that one thing you've got to always understand when you're in protection and you've protected enough people to understand that you are not there, you know, friend, you're there to protect them. And when I first got to the VP detail, uh, especially in charge had, they bring them in and groups of 10 to a dozen so that, uh, vice president comes out of rain that comes out one day and he's got all new agents around him. You know, he, they, they just bring him in. So slowly they interject new people. So we're in the, uh, the, uh, kind of, uh, that were their orientation. And I'm in there with the other new guys and especially in charge of coming and gets in and just his little greeting. He said, George Bush is one of the finest men that I've ever met. Truly is. And he did a little bit as a background. No, World War II pilot shot down. Da, da, da. And he says, uh, you know, he's got this resume. You just won't stop. Probably our next president after Reagan, but he said, uh, and he's a George Bush, obviously knows my name, of course. And he knows my wife's name. He knows my children's name. He knows my anniversary date. He knows my birthday. He knows my wife's birthday. He's both, one thing about George Bush. He's not my friend, nor will he be yours. He said, this is a great guy, great personality, but you're not here to be their friend. If you're their friend, you're not doing proper protection. If we detect anybody trying to be their friend, you won't be on this detail. And, uh, and that was the way it was because you're not there, friend, you're there to work. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of have that, uh, little bit of separation for sure. You know, they're looking out for guys that are trying to, uh, you know, kiss ass to the, to the big boss, which certainly is not going to be, uh, prudent for good security work. Uh, so how, and how long, what did you retire from that? Uh, 2001, before 9-11, 2001, I got a, uh, an offer for Ford Motor Company. I couldn't refuse. So I went to Ford Motor Company and executive operations. I was a manager, uh, there for, and I did security work for when Bill Ford and Nick Shailo would travel, go out there and do it in advances and travel with them as security and for the World Trade Center, I mean, the, uh, New York World Headquarters in New York, Ford Motor Company, World Headquarters, and the Research and Engineering Center had, you had security fire people there, so you'd have 50, 60 guys that you're responsible for to do that when you weren't traveling. And how long did you do that gig for? About four years. And then they started, uh, downsizing because the auto industry was starting to slide and Ford had some great top end people and they saw it all coming. And, uh, when, when it really hit, they, they were, they only was, it didn't take a bail off. Yep, they were. And they were in position. They had repositioned and I was making a lot of money. And my number two guy was not making that kind of money. Good, but not certainly not. I was making, and when that, uh, when they called me and said, Hey, great job, Bill, you've done a wonderful job. Uh, what do you think about this, uh, buyout thing here is, uh, and I looked at him thinking, who the fuck do I got to kill for this? You know, I, I keep for the government. We, we didn't have buyout. You know, you, you just left. And anyway, yeah, they were very, very kind to me and by all my duties, responsibilities of, of the protect that the protection, not that shifted to them. And they never raised this, uh, his, uh, salaries or anything. They just said, well, you're in charge now. Uh, no. And so this is what kind of things they did. They were very, very good about it. And hence they ended up surviving without a bailout. Um, and then how did you, how did, so, so how long did you do that for? Well, four years. And then what came after that? Well, uh, I'm a home town boy. I went back to the Quad cities and, uh, got back there and just kind of hung up my shingles, single to do security consulting. And there's a whole network and they call, Hey, are you available to do this, this, this? Uh, nope. I'm going to go skiing or no, I'm, you know, but, or yes, I am. So I just pick and choose the different jobs. I did not want a full time job. I can't. And then you, you know, this third silver star, which you didn't get until 2012, how did that come about? Good story. Cause you, cause you went, you know, you told the story already, uh, that you went to get an award. You didn't know what the award was. You decided that was more important to save people's lives than to get an award. So you end up showing up late to your own award service and you end up getting no award and you said, I'll catch up with me at some point. You never saw it. So how'd that come about? In 2010, Bobby Schilling was, uh, where I lived in, uh, Rock Island County was as same, or maybe more per capita democratic tickets, uh, as Cook County in Chicago, it's incredible Democrat. Uh, and, um, and that brings them upon their own problems that people have with one party control, either party, you're going to have problems. So, uh, Bobby Schilling decided to run for Congress in 2010 and the guy he was running with was a slug and, uh, another veteran by the name of Ken Moffitt, he's come up and come, he'd be really liked to be said, Hey, would you help me with the veteran angle to help Bobby get in? So, uh, I heard him talk and I talked to him. I met him and I said, yeah. So we did. We formed a pack actually a veteran for the constitution and we were very helpful in getting him into office. He won. He won first Republican Congressman they had there in, oh my God, 40 years. So he got in and he came to me and he said, Bill, I want to offer you a job as my veteran constituent working in my bubble bonnet. No, thanks, but no, thanks. But I'd say who would be good as Ken Moffitt. He goes, well, that'd be my second choice. I said, Ken would be good. And he, and he was, he was just great at it. He said, but is there anything I can do for you? I said, yes, there is. There is one thing. I, and I told him a little bit of story about Kate and then I missed the ceremony. I said, if you could look into that and see what happened to it, I would, uh, I would appreciate that. So he said, uh, absolutely. So Ken now being the veteran guy, it comes to me. And he says, you got anything on this written on it? I says, well, remember, I told you 2008, I wrote it all down as this as a matter of fact, I do. So I handed it over to him. He then took the ball and ran with it. Oh my God. Started looking at people interviewing people. He was the basis for the research, the starting research of the book. And then Marvin took it over. Now listen. So they did. And they decided not me, I had nothing to do with this. That they were going to submit me for the, uh, Medal of Honor. And they did. And it came back and they said, uh, Silver Star is good enough. So I was presented with a Silver Star in 2012. Jack. Yeah, I'm not sure, uh, what else you got to do, but we'll take it. Yeah. That's what I said. Yeah. So. Yeah. Um, and I've, you know, I've seen stuff with people like asking, you know, Pete, the president to intervene to get that upgraded. Uh, let's see where all that goes. You know, we, there's a guy in, in Ramadi, a guy named Marquis, Sergeant Marquis quick and he, you know, um, his, his, um, company sergeant was on this podcast, but he jumped on grenades to save some of other guys. And like he, they're looking to get him, uh, the Medal of Honor searching for the last few eyewitnesses right now, but what a process it is. Uh, but you know, absolutely, you know, it was such a clear case, uh, guy that sacrifices his life for his friends like that. And, you know, we're, but the, the process of going through and I'm, I'm, you know, just tangentially know what's going on because I'm friends with, friends with Dan Pinyin, who's the, the, the functioning force to try and make it happen. And just seeing from the outside, what he's doing to try and push that forward. Huge efforts going forth. And, uh, hopefully it happens, you know, because, you know, clearly, clearly. Well, you know, you know, sacrifices life. Absolutely. What else is left? Nope. Nope. Nothing. Yeah. Um, so, so what are you doing now then? Well, I did, uh, I was telling you, I was a special investigator for the secret service part time they had called me up and I did that for nine and a half years. I didn't even know I was doing it. I was still doing contract work too. So I just stopped doing that. Mary is very happy about that. And, um, now I'm trying to do some of the things develop what they call hobbies. But I gotta tell you one thing about this, uh, this thing was saying, did I, did I talk about the Warriors rising? Yeah. You mentioned before we hit record, but yeah, let's hear what that's all about. It's a warrior rise. Warriors, warrior, Warriors, warrior rising. Okay. And, uh, basically it is a company, a company. It's a veteran organization founded by some special forces guys. And right now Casey Maxit is, is the president of it. And what they'll do is so if you have developed as I was talking about, it's one individual made these beautiful knives, incredibly beautiful. And they were well worth putting them into production. But he didn't have the foggy idea how, what do you need it a business plan? He needed a business, how finance, how do you get finances? How do you do a HR? How do you, how do you set up a factory? How do you do all these things? That's what warrior rising does. They bring these guys in and they, they take them to school literally put them in through a school where they learn how to run a business, how to create a business, how to run a business, and they help them all along the way. And then at the end of this, uh, we're just coming up to one now in Iowa in March. There's going to be a shootout event, all different kinds of guns that we shot, but that's fundraiser than a dinner where they'll have a shark tank the night before and a top five or six will present their ideas to this panel. And they're not all veterans. They're, uh, captains of industry type people. These, the panel is all captains. Panels. Yes. And then they'll decide who they're going to fund beyond. And it's really a cool deal. And then they have this dinner, which I always go to and free load and drink for free and eat whatever they have. And I spoke at one of them. So not that one, but you earned your food and booze. Yeah, that's right. Pay me out. Just eat this here. Okay. So, and he, and they do this and they do a very, very good job of it. Warrior's Rising. So it's, it's a good worthwhile website by any chance. I think it's warriorswising.com. Cool. That's awesome. And then, so does that get us up to speed of where we're at right now? Yeah, pretty much. I see you're working on another book. What's the next book, the Mike Force book? Yeah. It's going to be about Doc Xiang and it's a, it's a, it's a moving at the pace of a glacier right now. See the cake was simple in that I had control of all this stuff and I could get, find out all this other stuff, but this has got another Mike Force unit coming in from the Trang. We have a Ranger unit, a guy named Maneb of La Trelle, Sergeant La Trelle. He was, I had an Arvin Ranger unit, which was pretty shit hot. And they were, they were inserted on top of one of these hills, kind of like a firebase, Cape type of hills. And they had three, three American advisors, like a major captain in him as the, yes, Sergeant First Class all killed. And plus most of this command structure, the Rangers killed, but he organized them. And, and the last day they were there, he took those Rangers, he let them off that hill with air cover and, and got them to safety. And he received the Medal of Honor. Gary Byrick at special forces, medic at Doc Xiang received the Medal of Honor. Incredible. Pass, he's passed incredible. What he did. So there's a lot of moving parts in this thing. And I can focus in on the fourth battalion and the first battalion, but then I got to bring in all these other things. Like there was more caribou shot down there at Doc Xiang than the history of caribou in Vietnam. And they had brought in these things, Stinger, who could shoot artillery rounds off the back bunker, penetrate rounds off the back of their platform. A lot, a lot of hot shit thing was going on there. And they're, they're tough to bring in all, all together. Yeah. That's good. That's definitely a bigger chore than the one where you kind of owned everything yourself. And it lasted for six weeks. Yeah. As opposed to five days. Yeah. And are you still doing like you mentioned a little bit, consulting and speaking and stuff like that? Yeah. When you feel like it. Speaking now, you know, they'll, they'll usually be some money involved, unless it's an, unless it's some organization that, you know, yeah. So yeah, they, they get a hold of me and I'll say, well, what do you got going and do that? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. So does that get us up to speed? I think so. And people can find you. You got captain hyphen hawk.com. That's where people can find you. I think best to go to the website and that's yeah, that's right. You just said it. Yeah. Captain hyphen hawk.com. Yeah. That's where I, when I googled you that popped up right away. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Uh, echo Charles, you got any questions? Yeah. I'll clarify the Warriors rising. Is it Warriors rising or warrior? Warrior, warrior singularly singular. Okay. No. Okay. God, I say that. I hope I'm right. We'll look it up. We'll make sure. Yeah. Oh, connect people. Oh, you mentioned you played football varsity football high school. Um, did you? Well, first off, what position did you play on? No, right tackle. Offensive defense. Offensive. Hell yeah. Online all day. Um, do you find that? Cause I kind of wonder this where do you find that like the principles of football carried over to the military? I mean, let me answer that. That's an excellent question. Let me tell you about that. First of all, I was a little kid. Play football, play baseball, basketball, not too much. Um, and I was always one that, uh, preferred to go to Blackhawk State Park in the woods with my band of, uh, of warriors in set up ambushes and ambushes. The kids always did. The army was always in my heart. So I played football freshman, sophomore year and then, uh, and I was no standout for that's for God damn sure. But I really love the game come junior year. My father said, if you want to go to almond Catholic high school, you goddamn well better get the, pay the tuition. Oh, so I had to get a job at a grocery store and that's where I worked. And so I couldn't go out for football junior year. I'm going somewhere with us. Yes. So senior year, I was senior at the grocery store and I went in and told them, I'm going out for varsity football and I would like you to rearrange my hours. If not, I can't work here anymore. Yes, they did. So they rearranged my hours so I could practice, play on Friday night and work all weekend. So I went out varsity year to play and I was pretty good, I guess. Okay. But the two guys in front of me had played for four years. So they were first string. So I was absolutely second string. I would be like the third tackle going in. So I never started a game, but I loved being part of a team. Just what we're talking about being a part of a team, being a part of something, a force multiplier, being something bigger than you are because you're with everybody else. I love that. And at the end of the season, we had a good season. At the end of the season, they handed, I paid enough to get a varsity letter. And that varsity letter meant so much to me right now. It is framed and hanging downstairs among my wards and decorations right between two silver stars. That's the first thing in my life that I ever completed from beginning to end of any substance. And that took me then into the army knowing gave me, it sounds, it doesn't sound like it would, but it gave me the confidence to know that I can start something tough and get through it. So to answer your question, a resounding yes. Yeah. Of course, this, you know, you asked me what time it is. I just told you how to build a clock. No, no, no, that's actually what I was wondering. I have two friends that went into the SEAL teams. They just, they both retired recently. And we played football from childhood to college. And they would say, yeah, you know, it's kind of like football in this way or that way. And I, and I, all I can do is kind of imagine it or whatever. But then there's a lot of people who don't, who, you know, who don't play football necessarily and they go through. So I just kind of wonder when I map it back on my experience, like when I'm trying to imagine this stuff. Take this a step further when, when, uh, so interviewing these young applicants for the secret service, first of all, you're looking for a veteran and you're looking for a cop, ex cop. That's, I mean, you got to really screw up for me not to get you into the day. Cause we're for a step. The other thing I found that I looked for is guys that played collegiate athletes and they didn't have to play, uh, um, you know, division one or what, they could even been in played, uh, continually in intramural sports, but played on the field, sweated, uh, bumped heads, did physical men and women. And that was that really showed me some commitment and some drive. And that is something that I found to be, uh, in the, the applicants that we did get those that had participated in team sports. Yeah. Yeah. Football too is, I mean, that's the main one that I played and track, but I'm shocked, tell you, I'm shocked. Football is like kind of, I guess in a way unique where every single position has this very specific job to do. And you have the pairs, right? You have, you know, two tackles, two wide, you know, sometimes, but they all have such different jobs when you compare the different positions, but each job is equally as important regardless of the glory, you know, like the wide receiver or the quarterback or the right, they're going to get the touchdowns and all this other stuff. But if the O line in, in any given play, let's say one O lineman doesn't do his job, the whole team fails on the team. So I'm saying, so it's like all the jobs are so different, but each one equally as important. I completely agree. On every play too. It's like in that, you know, kind of sense. Look at the line on the super of this last super ball. What happened with the off edge of the line? Okay. That's the way it goes. What was your position? Oh, wide receiver. Okay. Played running back to when I was young, I played like all the ball positions, but yeah, in college wide receiver. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, sir. Good to meet you, sir. Right on. Bill, any, uh, any closing thoughts? I I'm just thrilled to be here. Now you guys represent a lot in our community, a lot in our community of veterans and law enforcement and current active do is in you. Your interviews are, uh, incredible. And I think the, the, the thing that I find the most is your in depth questioning of what's going on. And that is very, very important. And there are men, I mean, I, first time I've ever heard the one when you would, what about John Duffy? I'd get to where I was going and I'd sit in the car for another hour. Just, just to listen to that. I was so taken by that. And some of the other ones that I've listened. So it's truly my honor to be here. I'm just thrilled to do. I'm going to catch a red eye home to Orlando and which not home, but back to where my wife is, our winter place and, um, chalk this up to one of the better accomplishments of my life. Well, honestly, it's a, it's absolute honor to, to be able to meet with you as you guys were my heroes when I was growing up, you know, uh, that's, that's what I, matter of fact, uh, you know, I get asked, like, if I go back in time, what would I, where would I do? What would I, where would I go? What would I do? And I always say, I'd be a seal in Vietnam. That's what I'd want to do. Um, so for, for me to be able to sit down with, with you and hear these things firsthand and capture them and share them with other people. Uh, it's just, it's just an absolute honor for me to be able to do. And so thanks for coming out. Thanks for, you know, sharing these lessons learned in the book. Like I said, the book is absolutely phenomenal. I hope you pick up the pace on the next book and you write a little bit faster cause I'm going to be waiting for it and we'll come back and, and talk about that thing as well. But, you know, so thanks so much for all that. And then most important, thanks for your service to our country and, uh, for your service in Vietnam and then your service as a, as a secret service member. And really I pointed this out in the beginning, but the book really does an outstanding job of making sure that we don't forget the sacrifices that our military makes and the heroes that did not come home. So thank you. It was my honor to serve and thank you. And with that, Bill Albrock has left the building. Uh, a lot of story. By the way, 21 years old at that time, 21 years old, 150 to 200 guys, all lives depend on what you're doing as a 21 year old. That, that is, that is outstanding right there. Also, I will note that I think for the first time in the history of this podcast, you got told that your question, I believe the word he used was excellent, excellent question. So I mean, I'm, I know you're a fan for life. Hey, we still here. Oh man. And, and that's a crazy thing is like, you know, you read, you read this book and that book is about five days. And you know, even the story just told him, he covers the mic for stuff in, in the book, abandoned in hell, in like a page and a half. You know, oh yeah, I was wounded again, wounded again. And then you start hearing like the little, a little bit of context around those situations. And it's just incredible. So awesome to have him on board and, and share those stories. And just another reminder, man, you got to be ready. You don't know what you're, you don't know when things are going to go down. Even flying in to Firebase Kate, he's like, can't believe I'm getting stuck out here with nothing going on. This is ridiculous. But guess what he did? Got out there. I was like, all right, got to start squaring stuff away. Now they didn't even have time because it got dark, but that was the attitude. We got to be ready. Always got to be ready. And that doesn't just apply to fire bases and NAMM. It applies to life as well. So that's what we're doing. We're going to be ready for anything. That means training. That means Jiu Jitsu. That means running, lifting, sprinting, just overall studying and getting after it. That's what we're doing. And by the way, when that happens, you need some fuel. And we highly recommend Jocco fuel. We have the pro series out. We have the warrior kid series out. Warrior kid protein. Have you had any of those yet? Not the warrior kid, but the pro series all day. Yeah. The pro series outstanding all day. Also the warrior kid. So it's, uh, it's protein boxes. You know what I'm saying? Like the little boxes of pro. It's a drink. Oh, like a juice box. Yeah. Like a juice box. It's like a juice box. And, you know, they sent me some as a sample like, Hey, Jocco, you know, here's the finished product. Here's the run. Here's the packaging. Here's the blah, blah, blah. So I get them. Put them in my fridge. You know, Oh, I have one. I have, there's vanilla chocolate strawberry. They're all amazing. Right. And I actually ordered more. So even though I have, look, I have the pro line. I have regular mall, all, all, all day. Right. But occasionally, just to be able to grab like 12 grams of protein, that tastes just absolutely delicious. So, but the kids are loving it. So we got that. We got the energy. We got greens. We got all the supplementation. We got muscle drive, which is a big deal. Yeah. I need some of that. Yeah. The muscle drive is no joke. And I'll tell you what's interesting about the muscle drive is it because it's, it's got like all the amino acids that you need in it. And I don't know if it's that psychological or what, but it makes you feel full. You know, you're kind of like you kind of feel gratified after you have it. So, but that's really, that's awesome for people, especially like weight cuts. Or just cutting weight in general, but you want to protect your muscle, muscle drive all day. Yeah. It goes beyond the weight cuts, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. In any kind of cut, any kind of loose weight. So here's the thing. When you're losing weight, don't say lose weight. That's why I always say, Hey, you're on a cut. Right. Not to mention it just sounds cooler, but you got to get it correct. Cause if you're like, oh, I'm going to lose weight. It's like, okay, what kind of weight like, bro, you can chop off your arm and lose weight. You see what I'm saying? But you want to lose body fat. You want to improve your body fat percentage, right? That's kind of the goal. And you want to, at the very least preserve muscle, the very least ideally, you want to gain some muscle ideally, but keep in mind, sometimes these things go, they work against each other. If you're trying to lose, that means you're on a calorie deficit, but you got to have enough protein and carbohydrates, by the way, to build muscle. Generally speaking. So like, how are you going to square that circle? That'll be exactly right. So a lot of times, especially if you're cutting hard, you're going to lose that muscle. It's just, that's just how, and you can slow the, the reduction of the muscle. You don't want to lift and get enough protein and stuff like that. But Brad, it's like, it's natural to lose that muscle. You got to thread the needle pretty hardcore to be able to maintain or gain muscle while you cut up. It's very, it's, it's a balancing act for sure, especially over time. Brad, it's not, it's not easy. No. Ask any fighter when they cut weight, they lose so much muscle, but it's like, you know, it's just sort of worth it because you're small and you're competing against smaller people. So I get it. Of course, that's how, but in the game of life, in the game of life, fight the whole thing. I mean, I'm just saying the standard is losing muscle when you're losing like any significant amount of weight. Yeah. The standard, you know, don't accept that. Don't accept it. Check out jockelfield.com. You can get it at jockelfield.com or you can get it up retailers around, around the country. So check that out. Also origin USA origin. We're making American made clothing, rash guards, G's, JG2 belts. So everything that you need for the mats of justice, origin USA. But listen, we can't unfortunately wear a G to the grocery store. We got to wear jeans. We got to wear hoodies. We got to wear T shirts. We got to wear boots. That's why we have origin USA clothing. Whatever you need. We got you covered and it's all 100% made in America. That's what we're doing. Check out origin at USA.com. Also check out jockelstore.com. We representing Discipline Equals Freedom. Good. Get after it. Stand by to get some, all these things that you want to, let's say, embrace as an approach to life in any given situation. Probably we can represent. I'm telling you, this is quality too, by the way. So many people, and I really mean this. So many people have said like, Hey, these are like, of course they look good or whatever, but the real tale gets told because they always want to wear it because it fits them. Great. Seems saying some, all I'm saying is, Hey, this is quality stuff. It's not just some giveaway type. So it's good. Um, also, you want a new subscription scenario called the short locker new design every month, a little bit outside the box creatively. You know, we collaborate with people sometimes the way they, you know, it's fun. The design, same sort of theme though, more or less. Um, but yeah, check that out. New design every month. Uh, it's called the short locker. It's all on jockelstore.com. Check. Also, sogglegacy.com. You want to represent Sogg support? Sog support. That's a very important distinction. Uh, you know, most of us weren't, we were not in Sog. Yeah, we were not far from being in. Bill mentioned Sog today. Oh yeah. Studies and observations group. Yep. Uh, one thing about Sog, universal respect. Yeah. Universal respect. Look, you get the inner service rivalries. Oh, I was in this war. You were in that war. I was in this theater. You were in that theater. I was in this group. You were in that group. Blah, blah, blah. Everyone, you know, everyone's got their little beef with everybody else. Except for Sog. Universal, universal respect. Oh yeah. And so we show universal support at the Sog store. Yep. It's true. Yeah. It's Soglegacy.com. You want to check them out. It's cool. There's a really, really good covert black on black one. Brown's really solid. Then you got, then you got the regular logo one. All of them is just support. See what I'm saying? Like I said, we're not in Sog. But we support. And that does support Sog history. It does support Soglegacy by supporting the Sogcast. It's true. So that's what we're doing. Soglegacy.com. We got some books, obviously Abandoned in Hell by William Albrecht. This is just an outstanding book. So check that out. Put your legs on by Rob Jones. And then Dave Burke, need to lead. Check out those books. And then of course, I've written a bunch of books about leadership. So you can check those out as well. I also have a leadership consultancy. It's called Ashelon Front. You can go to Ashelonfront.com. If you need help with leadership inside your organization. We also have an online training academy. Go to extremeownership.com to learn the skills of leadership. Well, you can learn them right there online. So check that out as well. And if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help out their families, you want to help out Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom. She's got the most amazing organization. It's a charity organization and it helps out so many. Of our service members. And so if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to Americas, mighty warriors.org. Also check out heroesandhorses.org. And finally, Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org. Also, warrior rising.org. So we didn't get that right during the podcast, but if you want to check out that organization that helps, helps our veterans transition into the civilian sector. Warrior rising.org. And once again, if you want to find Bill Albright, first of all, you can check out warriors rising.org, but also he's on the interwebs, captain hyphen hawk.com. There you go. And for us, you can check out jocco.com and then on social media, I'm at jocco will and can echo that. I go Charles. We don't encourage you to go there, though. Once again, thanks to Captain William Hawk Albright for joining us today. And thank you for your decades of service to the United States of America. We are indebted to you. And thanks to all the military personnel out there around the world right now and to all of our veterans with a solemn salute to our Vietnam veterans. Who fought and sacrificed in that war and did their duty. To the utmost. Also, thanks to our police law enforcement firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol and. Secret service, of course. And all other serve first responders. Thank you for doing your duty here on the home front to protect us and everyone else out there. Just remember that no matter how bad things get. And no matter what you're up against, no matter how to bleak things might appear. You can find a way out. Even if like Bill Albright, you have to make that way out. You have to make it yourself. So no matter what. Keep fighting. That's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocco out.