How Architects Are Redefining Beauty Brands Through Design, Storytelling, and Intentional Restraint

This is iDesignLab, a podcast where creativity and curiosity meet style and design. Curator of interiors, furnishings, and lifestyles. Hosted by Tiffany Woolley, an interior designer and a style enthusiast, along with her serial entrepreneur husband Scott. iDesignLab is your ultimate design podcast where we explore the rich and vibrant world of design and its constant evolution in style and trends. Today on iDesignLab, we're joined by Bradley and join you Skaggs. Founders and creative directors of Skaggs Creative, the agency behind some of the most refined brands in beauty, fragrance, and hospitality. Trained as architects in Europe and guided by form follows function and less is more, Skaggs designs brands from the inside out, shaping not just how they look, but how they're remembered. Welcome to the iDesignLab podcast. Today we're joined remotely by the design duo behind Skaggs Creative. We'd like to welcome Bradley and Yonina Skaggs to the podcast today. Would you introduce yourselves to our listeners? Sure. Tell us a little about yourselves. Because you have an interesting story. You're originally from Germany, correct? And started in architecture? Oh, I'm originally from Iceland, but then I studied Germany. And then I lived in Luxembourg with Bradley for three years, and now we moved to San Francisco and now we're here in New York. Amazing, cross-country and from Europe too. So tell us where your love for being creative and obviously design was really introduced and set the tone for your career. So we both met in architecture school and therefore design was a part of both of our lives before we met. Certainly crystallized in architecture school and then the agency was born out of kind of necessity in a way because Yonina was finishing her masters or MFA and freelancing and had a ton of work. And I was an architect then, but I was doing a lot of work in the early days of 3D CAD. Okay. And it led to a project with NASA to do a virtual tour of their ten facilities in the US and take that as a web experience. And so with her doing their master's degree and me doing that, it was like the agency kind of formed out of that. So it's just always been our thing. So your architectural was more in commercial? Yeah, it was at least there in Europe. It was more urbanism and planning in California and services. I worked for a firm that did a lot of work in Silicon Valley with tech companies. What a great time to come alive into that background, the design world, so much innovation. Yeah, and it was right during the dot-com boom. Totally started and blew up. And it was a pretty exciting time down there. But obviously in that part of the world, everything revolves around tech. Right. At least in California, there was a good food and wine aspect to it too. But it was New York when we moved here that we really got into more hospitality and that led us into beauty. And we spent our sweet spot for 15 so less years. But you mentioned NASA, so you were doing, you said 3D or what was it you were doing for NASA? So it was the project to have two friends who wrote a grant and it was to do a virtual tour of all 10 NASA facilities and then build a web experience where you could tour them. And it was the time when QuickTimeVR came out where you could stitch together a set of photos to build a reality you could pan around in. And they were both scientists and had started to develop a curriculum around it for children to teach in schools. But you could basically navigate it by different like topic, by location or by just trying to find out. That's interesting. What period of time was that you were doing that work? What years? It was... The reason why I asked, because I'm going to say it was the early 2000s, my company, we were doing a lot of work for NASA, but really up at Cape Canaveral doing the films and so forth for the visitor's center there. And then we were doing a lot of sort of documenting a lot of the NASA, like they had an area up at Cape Canaveral called the graveyard which had all the old structures and things from the past 10, 15 years space missions prior. Yeah, I think we stopped that actually. What's that? I think we shocked that as part of the whole process because we did all of them. You could be inside labs, you could be inside simulators, you could be inside a helicopter gas station, you see it could be all kinds of places. But it was right around that period of time because we were just ready to launch it and then 9-11 happened and it never saw the light of day. Really? Yeah. All that work. So you end up moving to New York? It took us two years to do it. Really? Two years. Does it live in infamy somewhere? In a hard drive? Yeah, in a hard drive. Oh yeah, exactly, right. Maybe someday it would be fun to bring it back given what technology is today and what you could probably do. Right, exactly. It would be. It really would be. And just to see how far things have come. And I think what I find so fascinating is that you started with such an architecture background, obviously, which is a love of design and creativity. And you, as your creative process has evolved, you've gone all the way to like photography and product development, which is part of like Scott's passion world. How did that pivot come about? As the lotter, we... Yeah. We've been hired by As the Lotter to do their fragrance. Well, as of now... Prestige fragrance. Yes. And as you know, they... I mean, if it's Tommy Hilfinger or Dick N. Y., we did Tom Ford... Like a... ...Klein Wiltward story. And none of them are involved with the process. They just licensed their name at them that baked the juice and then we had to create the story around it. And we did that for a lot of fragrances that you know today. So that was sort of the pivot point. But you moved to New York and your architects, correct? Yeah. So at what point did you realize or how did you go from being an architect to designing, you know, brands and ad campaigns and packaging? Well, I mean, did you go hand in hand? Was there someone you met you bumped into? Was there someone named you and how do you jump from one to the other? It happened because you mean a finished school and really didn't like being an architect. Okay. It's over a year. I'm practicing. And we were living in Luxembourg then and it was a guy who I was working for. We shared a space and they did this art publication of the Luxembourg art scene. And they produced a little monthly guide and they needed somebody to help them lay it out in the arena. It's like, I'll try it. And she's like, I really love this. This is this is this is graphic design. This is what I want to do. So that's what she went back and did her MFA in. And for me, with the dance, the thing and the digital part, it was something I just loved. And they kind of just all dovetail together. Yes. In the beginning, Skaggs was very much a graphic design shop. But as we grew and had different clients, especially when we got to New York, when she was thinking about a state water, it started to evolve more into storytelling and branding and then make it film. So you go from an architect to graphics design. Who was like your first client that you got your start in? Microsoft. Microsoft. So you're talking a big major company. So did you do branding for them? Did you do packaging for them? They had a product. This is way back when it was called replay TV. And it was a predecessor. Oh, yeah, I remember that. I do remember a replay. Yeah, as a predecessor to Tevo and all of that. Yep, exactly. We were we're not going to that project, the packaging for the instructions, everything. Giveaways, everything. But I have to ask you, how did you get awarded a project like that? Did you have a contact at Microsoft? Like everything and like that's who you know. So who you know, right? Isn't that the truth? So we had a there's a woman that she went dinner in the bay with you got a job there and that's how we got pulled into it. Yeah. What a wild. That almost called the web TV. I remember it's also replay TV. Oh, that's right. Yeah. It's it's wild to me that you go from something, you know, Microsoft, which is so I don't I don't want to say the word is, I don't want to mean it's more structural, I guess. And then you go to something that's beauty where you're really selling something that you can't necessarily see. So how did that evolution evolve for you? Like what was your timeline? Um, it is kind of an interesting question when you frame it that way, but it was sort of for us, I guess the natural progression because you know, architecture is a design field where you you study scale right from the Irmous eyes down to like a doorknob. And I think the only thing that comes close to is probably industrial design. When you think about it that way, it's terms of scale. So the principles apply to everything. Right. The pivot wasn't crazy. No, but it was sort of the organic nature of it. We were chasing two projects in in New York and absolutely when we started the agency, most of our clients we do architects with engineers or furniture or furniture companies or something in history because they knew that we could top their talk. Yeah. Um, I'm sure it was a nice way to rely on. Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with a brand called Vitra. No. But they they're a European contract manufacturer, a product manufacturing company. They have all the rights to Eames stuff in your okay. Okay. The class that's right. Yeah. We really wanted to work with them and it became clear that we were not going to be able to until we had a office in New York. So we had a small space. We called them up. We're in New York to like, okay, let's start it. So it happened. Isn't that crazy? We're perception is that important. Right. Yeah. We did that address. Yeah. It's kind of. And then, and then like you were saying the USA Water thing, the body of woman who, you know, was had been the former duty editor of his style magazine and she do some people and you know, he started that work your way around. And that's how I say water started. And then that put us into beauty. You know, I got a cold call out of the blue from diptych, their e-com Drunter. Which is a huge brand. They're first e-com, real e-com sites and did your global digital for eight years or so. And then while we're doing the take, somebody at Charlotte to break had seen what went happened with the take and I don't get a cold call from them. So basically you were off and running for sure. You were. Yeah. And that really put us in beauty and beauty is like I said, but our sweet spot for 15 plus years. So what was the most surprising, you know, aspect to getting into this beauty category? You know, I noticed the photography and doing some of my own homework to discuss with you both today, like the simplicity in highlighting a product versus all the, you know, all the other elements fascinated me. And I think how you really have to, you know, have a goal. Yeah. It's over. Well, I would say when we started in beauty, the companies wanted to like, let's take Charlotte Tilbury for example. She just had her own path. Didn't care what anyone else was doing around her. What were competitors? She just had a vision. And we loved that. And they were so organized and just amazing to work with. But now we feel everybody wants to copy everybody. Whoever is successful, then it's sort of this need to generation of companies that are not innovating. Yeah. And I think that's like somebody else. Yes. We agree. Beat your own drum. Yes. We agree. We agree. And that's, you know, part of why we have even started the eye design podcast. Because in our background, you know, you have some of these cookie cutter home projects coming up for developers. And I'm, I approach things the same way. Like you need to stand out, separate. You don't want to just blend in. Yeah. I would say too that back when it was Charlotte and Diptych, this was really the rise of e-com at that time. Social media wasn't really there yet. Right. You had my space, right? So this, this whole saturation of influencers and all that stuff that happens today, which I think sort of exacerbates the situation with being a me too. Right. Wasn't there. So it was really, really focused on the brand and what brand made brands important. And I still think that applies. And a lot of our work today is helping brands understand who they really are at their core and what makes them just, you know, different and unique and how they should be, you know, like she said, beating to that drum beat rather than what everybody else is doing and trying to be like somebody else. So is your main focus, has it really been helping a, helping a brand develop their brand or just or, or developing the packaging after they've already kind of got a branding both? Yeah. It depends on where they are and their sort of cross cycle, you know, if they're a young startup, then it's really getting that positioning and messaging worked out and then how that translates from the packaging and the web and sort of things like that. Marketing. And if they're more of a established company, it's who maybe has lost their way. It's like trying to get them refocused and back on the right path. So take us through your process. So your pro, so say you got this cold call from Diptyx, so which is of, you know, I'm very familiar with that brand, which is fragrance, but candles and a lot of, you know, home fragrance. You get that call. What does your process look like? Like compare, I'm comparing it to my process. What is that initial meeting, that intake and what are the steps that go forward to bringing it to launch? You want to see a little diptych is, is a, let me just put it this way. A lot of times when you talk to a brand like that, the first thing you do is kind of look at their website and where they're talking about it. But nine times out of 10, they have a messaging problem. What they're saying and what they're portraying do not connect. And it's, you know, I get it. It's very hard, especially for a founder brand, for founders to get what's in their head out on paper. Right. Translate. Yeah. It's the same thing with, I remember from your extension, probably where you are too, people have a vision of what their house wants to look like or something, but trying to get that out of their head and on the paper. Yeah. That's a real skill, right? It is. And I love and appreciate it when they do rely on experts to carry out that vision. Yeah. So a lot of times it starts with that conversation about who they are and what they're saying and then where they need to go from it. And often they have particular needs and how they, when they, when they call you. And how long does that process take for you to kind of come up with that next layer of vision and translation of their founder vision? It takes several, couple of weeks actually, three, four weeks, typically. It's in the beginning, and it actually kind of came out of the fact that all these companies were coming to us when you can look at it and say, like, they all have the same problem. They started building a methodology around how to, how to solve that. So is that the... It was interesting about it. Go ahead. No, go finish. No, as I was saying, it was interesting about it today is how we augment that process with AI to really do the research and find the patterns. And then we use our experience and our intellect to figure out what the signals in that pattern. And that's interesting now because the amount of data that's out there and how you can use it to synthesize and understand, which just gives us more time to focus on the creative side of it and really what it means to the brand instead of dedicating a month to deep market research, which is honestly not going to talk to even a fraction of the entire market of the brand really, right? So that's kind of where it's going right now. So interesting. So is this where your principles form, follows, function was kind of born? No, that was formed way back in architecture school. We learned about the Bauhaus and Mies and all those guys, right? But it's always just been the sort of, and that and less is more. It's always just two of the sort of things we live by. And so I noticed that in the photography for the products and, you know, as we're even having this conversation, I'm thinking, you know, as my design process is bringing multiple things to a single vision and you're kind of taking singular things and bringing it to a wider vision. That's fair to say. Often if it's a product or a new product, and if it's all about that product, right? If it's about the brand and maybe it's looking at the whole line of products and everything. The product photography really came out of the fact that it was weird, just amazed. We'd asked brands for their assets and they would not either have none or what they had were just so awful or off the off the mar. And it was like, how about if we start to shoot this and, and, you know, do it that way. And that was great because it actually really, I think helps our creative be a bit stronger because everything aligns that, you know, the aesthetic that's set visually, both graphically. You have a great control. Yeah. So take us through the photography process of a lipstick. A lipstick. Well, before you do that, did you have a photography background? I had been, yeah, I had been fascinated with it since I was in high school and I was done that I was in photography, like the shot for the high school newspaper. And my dream at that point was I wanted to shoot for National and Geographic. And then I got an architecture and then there was no time to pick up the camera. I picked it back up when we lived in Europe. And then I put it back away when we were trying to build a company. And then this thing happened where it's like, let's, we need to start shooting. So I got it back out and. And my way of false to you. Yeah. It seems to have become a very big facet of what you do from a creative standpoint for brands, the photography that you're bringing to the table for these brands. I mean, yeah, that alone is like another, you know, creative business and design business that you've really mastered. And it's definitely another business. And it's a business now, which I think is being heavily impacted by AI. It is. And I can have miscarried in a good way. No, I could. You can see it by the way what's AI and what's not. And how do you feel of, what do you feel about that? How do you, you know. I think it's, I look at, we look at AI just like we look at Photoshop was right. It's a tool. It's a tool. I agree. And it's not going to do anything for you. You've got to understand how the usage. How the lighting works. So, yeah. Agreed. Yeah. And how texture and specularity and all that sort of stuff goes together to make something have a form and a shape. And I noticed that so much in your photography, because like I said, you take a single item and yet there is so many different facets that you can focus on in that photography that really speaks to the quality of the item. Yeah. And I think when you look at my products, they're like little, they're like little buildings, you know. Yeah. You kind of look at it like it's the same thing. Like how you, the way you light a space or building. I know, but this is fascinating to me. Like, like so much focus is taken and something so miniature. Because it was small, it's still got material. It's got color. It has facet. And it's got a form shape. So, light is going to help define that. Right. So, what you're trying to achieve is to make that object feel three-dimensional in a two-dimensional space. So, as this photography component has taken on such importance in your creative work, is there a particular campaign that you're, obviously a lot of these names are big names that we are speaking of. Is there a, like a favorite one that really just, you know, tell us about that one? Yeah, Linda Bouchard. We worked on a fragrance brand called Bouchard Colbert. Beautiful fragrances. They're all inspired by music or operas actually. Oh, how cool is that? And so, if you look at the photography, each one, like there's Knife Thrower and there's Lulu and there's different ones. But what's interesting about it is they have their own opera story too. So, the photography is really about trying to pull each of those stories out and how that played into the bigger branding of the packaging and everything with each having his own illustrative world of... Forstimality. Yeah, personality. And it was a moment where we had a lot of creative liberty where we could do what we wanted to do and how to connect the photography to the graphic design and the layouts. And the illustration. And I think it's a great example of what's possible. What's the... What's the hardest part about the design process of, you know, not running into burnout or running out of ideas? Because you're dealing with so many different brands and so many different products. You've got to be unique and original with each one. The hardest part, I think, is to convince the owners, the client, the marketing team to take the chance and be different and be who they really need to be and not like somebody else. I mean, our biggest frustration is when they don't listen. Sounds from Mike Wight. Yeah. And we actually had to... We have never done this before. Well, a few years back, we were working with a startup company and they would not listen to us. They wanted to be exactly like the direct competitor. You can't do that. And sure enough. I mean, we gave her everything that we had done and then we said, we can't. We don't want you to fail, but I think... Well, you're able to... Find somebody else. Were you able to overcome that? Were you able to pitch them to be open-minded? Well, it was a very tough decision to make. But it's only... We've all gone on to wear maybe twice in all these years. Yeah. The different brands actually failed. They're not our own anymore because they were doing exactly what the competition was doing. Exactly. I mean, really everything... The colour palette. One part of your business is about the creative process and creating and coming up with the ideas and the design. But then there's the other aspect of your business that you've now have created all these ideas or the branding, but you've got to pitch it and sell it where the client's going to believe in it. So the trick to that is, and I think you can relate to this too, you're as much a designer as you are a therapist. Totally. Yeah. And a lot of times... Hand holder. Yeah. But what's the secret, right? It's listening. Right. It is. And understanding where their pain points are and what keeps them up at night. And then you rationalize against that. So you were saying that that happened. So this solves that problem directly because of this, this and this. They can't repeat that often because they said it themselves. Right. Right. But obviously getting to that point can be tricky, especially when they... We always joke that there's two types of clients, right? Those who know what they want, but not what they need. And those who know what they need and not what they want. Right. And the first step is figuring that out. There's a third type too, the ones who don't pay. Which leads me... Well, it's actually... I hate to say this, but the wealthier people behind the company are, they list a leader. Speaking more of a problem. Yeah. They want more company control. That was kind of leading me to... As creative directors, how do you protect the integrity of these concepts while collaborating? Well, you often... You always give them what they want and then you give them what they need. Or what you think they need. Right. Which is why they are coming to you in the first place. Yeah. And then often it ends up that they, okay, that makes sense. I get it now and they go with what you're talking about. Right. If you just... I think in the beginning we were naive and we would just like, you have to do it like this. And I'd be like, huh? You know, you can... You didn't realize that the nest that had to come along with that pitch. And that's just part of learning and growing. Yeah. Understanding that part. It really is. It is. I always say in the beginning of my meetings when I'm presenting, I said, I'm here to plant seeds. I want you to listen. Take it in. You brought me in to bring you a fresh perspective, a new vision and we'll get to the same end result, but just hear my thoughts. And they do eventually always come back to the beginning. That's exactly it. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. The creative process. Right? So as a couple, how do you balance in your collaboration and your roles in... It took us a long time to figure out. Probably still figuring it out as Scott and I... Yeah. So is one of you more creative in one more business or you both do it the same or... She does art direction. I do creative direction. That's how it started. On there, what's more strategic? Now it's just to be me more strategic and she does more on the creative. And who does most of the pitching when you've...creative is all done. Now you've got to pitch it and sell it to the client. Is that collaborative? Yeah, that's me. That's Bradley. What's that? Bradley. It's me, but it's an elaborate to a degree. Okay. It's just...I mean, honestly, it depends on the client and the project and what's happening. It's just a thing about the creative world, right? You have to be fluid. Yeah. You have to... It's always different. And that's what I think we both really love about it is we don't get up every day doing the same thing. Same thing. Each project is unique. Yeah. The experience is... And it makes it fun. Agreed. Are there any particular projects that you really get excited about or more excited about? Packaging is the most fun for us because we're out of text. So we get... Especially when we do...we just launched, well... Finemary packaging. Right here. It's not in the actual bottle or whatever. Yeah. So if it's a bottle, we have to design from scratch and not just take something that is already made. Shock. So you're designing bottles. Mm-hmm. Like, we launched a lip gloss line back in November. The packaging is 100% custom. That is so exciting. And I can't imagine where your architecture backgrounds collide with that. I mean, what a process. Yeah, it's fun because like I said, they're like little buildings, you know? They are like little buildings. So do you actually create a prototype? Like with your hands, with paper? Are you just kind of like... Totally. Always. Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually funny. You bring that up because anybody who works for us, the first thing they get when they walk in the office is a notebook and you have to draw. Yeah. Yes. Before you get on the computer, you have to sketch. I know. I actually, like somewhere on one of the podcasts, they said something about doodling is part of like the creative process too. Like doodling is a sure sign of somebody who's got that creative. But it's funny, like, you know, young kids who work with us, they come out of school, like they don't learn. They have paper and pencils. I know. No. And they just get around the computer and they spend all this time going in circles. Like start sketching first and then you'll see it. And a lot of times if we're trying out new forms, I mean, it's not their fault, but it's more the schools have stopped to teach them not to cut things out. So for the past... Like how to cut things out. And I say, I'm like, what is that? Well, it's really the hand drawing is really a dying art. And I think they're so beautiful. I still, you know, presenting with a hand drawing. I still feel like that sets a story that computers just can't, you know, the renders... I just think it's more efficient too. If you have a sketch you've done, then to go on the computer. Well, and there's more heart connection to it, I believe too, which is, you know, I'm sure something that really sets you guys apart as well. So you've designed and you've designed and branded for a lot of iconic and big names. Is there a brand out there that you wish you could have rebranded because you felt the branding didn't hit the mark? Or you could have, would have loved to have seen it done differently. Have you ever thought about that? Oh yeah. I think a lot. I couldn't name one now. Well, once we're met on the microphone. Which one? The Mary... no. It's on our list. They're telling me on our list. Now the first one. Oh, Laura Geller. Yeah. She could do a little better. Pat McGrath. Yeah. There's some of the iconically great brands that, you know, they have little troubles here and there like all of them, but I just feel like sometimes they end up in the same do-it-again mission, you know, and I think it really has to do with social media and that's all they pay attention to. Right. And they're not looking at like legacy. It's all about the temporal nature of social. It's all disposable. It's all disposable. But the brand isn't or shouldn't be. So how do you move beyond that so that you're building something that has longevity? And I think it, like I started saying it again, that it comes back to being true who you are as a brand and not trying to be like everybody else. Yeah. So that's a lot of conversations, I would think, with the founders really too. Yeah. But I mean, that's all predicated by having a great product, right? Or great formulations. If the product isn't there, then there's no point doing anything else. And have you ever had to say like this product just isn't for us? Yeah. You know, suddenly when you say it, a lot of times they know it already and they're just looking for that value. Throw that confirmation. And then it's like, but look, it's not the end of the world. You can reformulate. Right. And maybe if you reformulate, you can save some money. Maybe there's newer technology out there that you can use for better delivery systems or whatever for absorption or who knows. But it's so interesting to me now, you know, as like your career taking on this element to path to beauty, because I'm absolutely flabbergasted at the amount of beauty products available and everybody has a beauty line. Every influence. Yeah, it's absurd. It's becoming so saturated, which obviously I'm sure you're very aware of. And you know, part of this branding is really highlighting a special product where some of these brands today are highlighting a person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at celebrity brands. On the large, there's that's just an endorsement. I mean, every housewife has a lip gloss. It's like, you know, it's just it's such a fascinating market. But it's like, I would argue it's like a lot of things, you know, the parallel would be food. Right. Yes. Everybody can cook. Some people can cook better than others and some chefs are like rockstar, great chefs and they're like the really great beauty brands or beauty formulators, right? Right. Or perfumers or whatever. Right. You've, there's different levels. There's a hierarchy. Yeah. That makes total sense. But to your point, there is no doubt a ridiculous amount of beauty products now. And a lot of them are formulated actually the same way. If you start to look at the ingredients. I'm sure. They're all the same. I'm sure. And then it just comes back to packaging. Right. And the story. And I am blown away by the creative process to like how much you guys do get involved where these brands do have like the branding trips. They have the branding giveaways. They have, are you involved in all of that? It depends on where we, what we're doing. Sometimes we do marketing marketing on our favorite thing to do. Right. So, you don't really focus and hone in on the product. Well, I think especially with beauty, especially with skincare. That needs to be driven in-house because people have concerns and questions and things that they need to be speaking straight to the brand. Right. And so, but, uh, But we help with marketing. We do a lot of marketing for brands. You know what I'm saying? I mean, when we talk marketing, it's more like digital, digital ads, email campaigns, Website. Website, website maintenance. Um, but we feel like Bradley was saying, if you're running social, especially if it's skincare and if it's a skincare line that is built around special concerns, they have to do the social media or at least have a team in-house that can get back to the clients if something happens, if they have an outbreak. Or question. Or question. Um, they need to have that. And same thing with supplements, I feel. That's true. That's a whole other one. Personal thing, yeah. Yeah. So, when you, what's one of the projects that you're working on right now that you could share that maybe hasn't been launched yet? Um, I can't really talk about any of that. But, but the one, but there's a lot of interesting things happening. Yeah. The lip glosses that we launched with, uh, with our client in Monaco, they're coming out with a few more products, um, that are all related to makeup or, I wouldn't say skincare quite yet. Yeah. And we're working on, uh, Iris Brown is doing, uh, we're trying to pioneer home wellness with him, develop a category around home wellness, which is an interesting concept, I think. I was like, yeah, tell us more about that concept. I don't know if I want to. I don't think we can. Um, well, that's the reason why we can't, we have signed NDAs. Right. I understand. I understand. Uh, yeah. But there's all kinds of interesting things. So for a young designer who's looking to break into this industry, who's going, you know, and learning, what advice would you give them? Go to a print shop to begin with. Smell the turpentine and see how printing works. And I think that a lot of, especially if you're, if the designer is interested in doing packaging, they need to see how it all goes together, how prototypes are made, how printing works, to understand that, no, I can't just do it all on a computer. I have to get my hands dirty. Yeah. I have to build it. Yeah. And another thing is actually what I feel is lacking is the understanding of typography and setting type, how to create type key when you're writing something or when you're putting it on a packaging. There are so many packages I see right now, but there is absolutely no hierarchy. Everything is set in the same way. And your ideas to know what to put out in. And your ideas to know those in circles. Because they don't teach it. They don't teach typography in school anymore. Which is extremely important. Which is extremely important from a standpoint when a product goes on a shelf in retail and the consumer is walking and it's a lip balm section and there's 15 different products. You know, what's your eyes going to get drawn to first? Which one is the consumer going to stop and just because of how the packaging is done? Exactly. Yeah. And like you're saying, the hierarchy of the font size and the style, you know, draws the eye. Yeah. And then once you get your attention and you pick it up, then the readability of like understanding what makes this product great. You know, like you can. So have you as designers and packaging and so forth, because I've done this in some products that I've been involved in where I basically spent time, you know, in a drug store watching retail, you know, consumers go up to it and asking them, why did you pick that? Yeah. What made you pick that? Why did you pick a breather over the nine other cold sore products that were on the shelf? Yeah. No, it's funny. We were having a conversation the other day with a woman who we worked with, she does market research and we were talking about AI and how it doesn't impact her business and what ways or the like. But what you realize that it can't do is it cannot do behavior, behavioral. Right. Yeah. Analytics, right? You need still to be there and talk to people like, why did you do that? I can't create a feeling either. Yeah. So. But I kind of feel that's old school. That's something that I don't think they teach in school today. And they're putting an emphasis on that. No. I mean, I think what's, I think the part of that has changed. I remember back in the day when you used to take, you know, a concept board and you would ask random people, what do you think of it? Would you pick concept one or two? Right. I don't think that exists so much anymore just because you can test that so quickly just on social media. Right. So, do you, with any of your concepts, do you ever do focus groups internally or externally to help you? If I'm saying not nearly like we used to, just because you can test so much of it, just on social now. But. Right. To what you were saying, that's a whole different thing about consumer behavior and why did you pick that product and not this one or that's interesting. And I don't think that will change ever because that's just human behavior. Yeah. I've done a fair amount of that myself and realized how important it is, you know, how a consumer just walking up in that first few seconds, how their eye is drawn to a particular product and why. And then asking people. That's why I designed batters, you know. Yeah. But a lot of it is also driven by social media now. We, my niece who lives in Iceland, lived with us for seven weeks here in New York and one evening we opened up the refrigerator and we saw all these weird products in there. And we were like, where did you get that from and why did you buy it? And it was all because of she was. The bottle. No, no, no, it was TikTok. And she talked to Kosovo. Yes. I know we're planning our spring break trip and my kids, you know, my husband's thinking, you know, what are, what are some of the sites you want to go see? Where do you want to explore? And they come back with the top TikTok, you know, stops. It's definitely is that new generation, you know, TikTok is 100% there. It's funny. It really is, you know, it's, it's, it's totally. You know, that's, that's okay, I think, because that, you know, it's when you're talking about something you eat or put on your skin that does some, who, how do you know this kid knows we've even talking about in the first place? Isn't that the truth? That's a different story. Whether or not it's a, you know, some guy's five second clip of looking at the pyramids of Giza. Okay, fine. Not gonna hurt you. But it's very different when you're talking about something that has the health, potential health. Right. Yeah. And I can speak to that sometimes too, you know, highlighting, you know. But yes, people would try to get away from this, trying to say everything. Had a, brands all in to say the same thing. We're clean. We're green. We're, you know, but what does that mean to them? Right. It's so true. And it doesn't suck for you anymore because everybody says it now. Right. Yep. You know, that means like table stakes keep changing and good because you shouldn't have to keep saying the same things over and over. The society should catch up and realize that it's better that things are, are good for the environment, that they're vegan, that they're not being tested on animals. All that stuff should just be normal. A given. Right. Yeah. I hear you. But it's amazing how many don't listen. They still make that they're mean messaging. Meanwhile, they own, you know, three patents for this, that are the other thing that they don't talk about except on the third page of the bottom read about page. That's your differentiator and you've buried it. Yeah. It's funny. Right. So are you part of a brand mainly for a certain campaign or are you there for like the long haul? The long haul. We're like, yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. It's a lot more fun. Yeah. It's more intentional. Because you grow with the brand and you, things come up, opportunities come up, problems come up and you just insult it or you take advantage of it. Well, something like obviously I love Charlotte Tilbury myself and traveling, you know, and shopping in other countries and places. Her actual like boutiques are like just eye candy, especially with my background. Are you part of those meetings and collaborations as well or strictly just product and the packaging? Well, we were and the company once she did the one, the first one on Common Garden. Yeah. But she has a, she has a team. Go design team, which has a retail work. But yeah. But we were always involved. Yeah. You know, it was started when we worked with her was in very, very beginning. She was 35 people or something. You know, it was, and we did their first e-com site and she hadn't opened the store yet and Common Garden. She was just going to do that. But along this desk time, I put in a little months that she took the week that we did for us. I'm getting that. Yeah. So we create like on the website this thing called Charlotte's World, which was like behind the curtain. You really understand who she was as a makeup artist and her career. And I think some of that did translating into the downstairs part of that where it was more a bourgeois kind of cool feel. But she's one of those people though, who was wonderful because she had a very clear vision about what she was about. And she is exactly who she is. When you meet her own person, what you see in our videos. When that speaks to her success for sure. Yeah. I mean, without a doubt. Yeah. And that is not. Yeah. And there was no bullshit. I mean, it's just straight on. A lot of that. So you've intentionally kept your agency small. How have you seen that as a benefit? We turn things around really quickly. Oh. Yeah. There's no hierarchy. We're all in it together. We're all get our hands dirty. And everybody is. Everybody's the team. Yeah. Oh, I love that. There was a while we were much larger. We had. Pro-Rifle skills. Yeah. And then we, after actually the pandemic solidified a lot of it because we realized like. It cut out the fat. We had to do all this ourselves faster and maybe even gutter. I don't know how to eat. Yeah. Yeah. But you've got to have a team, you know, and the team's got to be on the same page. And we were very conscious about keeping everybody involved on everything. Yeah, we do that. Even though one person may take a lead on it just to be the day to day. But because everybody's going to look at it slightly differently or suddenly maybe a home having a epiphany while they're in a shower. Yeah. And you come back and like, wow, that's a great idea. We should have, we should do that. You know, so I think it just works better. And I think clients appreciate it too when they realize they've hired a team. Yeah. Right. And not a bunch of project managers and, you know, one principal who's half in and half out and stuff like that. But your brand is your last name. So do most people come in and only want to meet with one or the both of you? Yeah, we have no choice. That was probably the most creative thing we ever did in steaming our company. Awful. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Tiffany ran into a situation when she started her company. It was Tiffany Woolley interiors, but, and every person that came in the front door only wanted to meet and talk to her on their home. And it got to the point where there was no way she could handle every single home by herself when she had a team. So I said to her, you got to change the name of the company. We shortened it to TW interiors to overcome that. That was true. And that's the, you know, that's the difference too. Like our projects, and that's the thing I think in architecture that drove us both a little bit crazy is just how much time a project takes. Right. Yes. Yeah. Which a lot of clients don't realize or understand that. The details. Especially if you're doing full construction, right? Right. The details. Or a big, you know, a big remodel. It takes a lot of time. Well, in most, in almost every project we do now, everything after the, you know, the architecture of the layouts, all the elevations are done. Everything is done, you know, in 3D. So it's photorealistic, you know, of every room and, you know, every wall. And people don't realize, you know, how long that takes. And then you've got clients that come back saying, okay, I want to change these two chairs in this table and that lamp and that light fixture and that rug. And can you re-render it all? They think, well, can I see it tomorrow? No. That's not going to happen. We have. Yeah, but you're doing it on the computer. Why not? Yes. We, we, it's crazy. We have gotten these requests. Actually, while time a client was in the office, we had a meeting and she wanted some changes and she said, oh, I'm going to wait here until you're done. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring your sleeping bag. We understand that. Squeezy. Yeah. But I mean, is this the interesting point you bring up? Because sometimes I feel like when clients don't understand process, especially like manufacturing, you know, package, there's, there's physical constraints to it. Right. Even printing, like that takes a certain amount of time for the ink to try. You can't speed that up or, you know, you can only do 33,000 pieces a day and assemble them. That's just what's humanly possible. And they, they refuse to believe that and it can be kind of annoying sometimes. And I'm going to guess based on our experience that you can't just go to one printer for every single thing that you're doing, there's certain printers can handle certain types of packaging, you know, and, you know, we're in the, we have a tequila brand and there's really, for us, there's only been one printer in Massachusetts that would do our printing for our boxes and labels and so forth. Really the boxes, but the labels, it's a different printer. Yeah. Yeah. And especially, I just like one guy we use when we do letterpress, he's, he's, he's a God when it comes to letterpress. He's so, so good at it. Yeah. You don't have to explain it. He'll tell you where the, what needs to happen. Like it's great. And we have other printers who are that way for, you know, just big run printing things. Or somebody who creates that, you know, um, cosmetic brands, you have to have like stickers and labels that are often under the product boxes. That's all he does. Right. I know everybody has their niche. Yeah. But it's, it's the knowledge, it's that knowledge that you have of where to go for the right printing and the, and to get it done right, which is a value that I saw. I think sometimes clients don't realize and understand as well that you're bringing. No, because often, often as you guys know too, they look at the bottom line, which is more expensive. Right. Yeah. He is more extensive for, for a reason because he's going to also knows what has to happen from a regulatory point of view and, you know, go with your guy if you want and you're going to end up what happens, you know, you'll pay for it twice. Yeah. Yeah. You'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. It can be really frustrating sometimes. I know. Well, you two have a beautiful creative process and I'm so amazed at your story of where architecture has brought you not only in your relationship, but your beautiful brand and now this niche of your cosmetic work and moving into photography. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So thank you so much for sharing your journey, your design journey. You both epitomize everything that we want the world to hear. Awesome. We'll continue to be successful in what you're doing as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for joining us on the iDesignLab today. Thanks. Thank you for allowing us. iDesignLabs podcast is an SW group production in association with the five star and TW interiors. To learn more about iDesignLab or TW interiors, please visit twinteriors.com.