Julia Gets Wise with Annie Leibovitz

Okay, let's say you buy some apples at the store. You're only going to have a rough idea of where or how they're grown. Maybe you throw the cores in a trash can. You're not thinking about where they're going or you try not to. All in all, our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. One way I try to reconnect is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never smells. But this part is just as important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient-rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens. If I wanted backyard chickens, and I don't. And well, I don't know. Maybe I do now. Maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try mills, risk-free trial, and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dryfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser than me. To celebrate your out of this world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser than me, mere traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to Wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. As I've mentioned on this here podcast, we lost our home of 31 years and everything in it in the Pacific Palisades fire earlier this year. And if you listen to the last episode of Wiser than me, in that episode, I warned that I might be talking to you, Dearest listener, about that fire and the loss that came with it a lot this season. And well, I'm a woman in my word. So here you go. We had a rough plan of evacuation from that house. The most important thing to get out was our photos. And unfortunately, we didn't get a chance to put that plan into effect and all the photos were lost. And I have to say, we had more than just a few photos. In fact, we had Lord help us more than 90 big photo albums that were perfectly sorted and identified and organized by me. Every picture ever taken of our kids and also crazy important stuff like our parents' baby pictures and the only pictures that existed of my parents' wedding and a photo of my father in law playing high school football in a leather helmet in 1927. And many, many just thousands more, like tens of thousands more. We were the repository of the family record. And it is definitely obsessive, but God, it was so joyful. It was so perfect. These photos gave me an enormous amount of joy. And there was one in particular that was just so good. It was this gorgeous photo that could have been a Norman Rockwell painting of our son Charlie at about five in his first baseball uniform sitting on his dad's knee hugging a huge baseball glove like a doll baby. And his dad, my Brad, who was Charlie's first baseball coach, was in the exact same Texas Rangers uniform hugging tiny Charlie. You just can't imagine the shit eating grins on their faces. It was just heaven. Another was a photo that Brad took of our son Henry sitting on my father's lap on the Il San Luis in Paris, my father's beloved hometown, with an ice cream cone in his chocolate covered four year old hand and more chocolate dripping down his smiling chin. And my dad is looking at Henry and Henry's looking right into the lens. So pleased with himself. Beautiful, really beautiful. Why, why, why are these losses so poignant? What is it about a photograph? It feels like the memories taken away to tell you the truth. Diane Arbus said, a photograph is a secret about a secret. More it tells you the less you know. I think that's very profound. I'm not sure how it applies to what I've just told you, but I'll tell you one thing I would give almost anything to have those images back really honestly. But here's a happy ending to this sad tale. First of all, we have so much family and so many friends who know of this loss and they've been sending us a ton of fantastic family photos, which is very touching and incredibly generous. And second, one of my very favorite photos that I thought was lost was out of the house when it burned up. So I still have it. And it's just a black and white passport photo of me and my mom. Back in the day, I guess kids got passport photos with their parents. And I have to tell you, this is a marvelous photo. My mom is young. She's 27 actually. She's very beautiful. She's holding me. I'm roughly four or five months old. My arm is around her neck. And my mother has this kind of pleased smile. And I am looking right into the camera. Kind of like Henry is looking into that camera in that photo from Paris that I was describing. It's just a passport picture. It was probably taken in a drug store or something. But I swear to God. It could be a Henri Cartier-Bresson portrait. I've had that photo for decades. I've always loved it. But now, oh man, stone cold treasure. How we look at a photo can and often does change for sure. But the photo cannot. It is that one 250th of a second or one 60th of a second or whatever that shudder speed is that sliver of a second and instant. So potently preserved in the frame and a great photo, whether it's a family photo or still life or a photo of a movie star, whatever it is, it may be just that fraction of a second captured, but somehow it can capture us the viewer over and over and over again. So how thrilled I am then that our guest today is Annie Leibovitz. I'm Julie Louis-Dreyfus and this is Wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. I love pictures, photographs. I can't get enough of the great fashion news and culture photographers of the last century. Richard Avedon, Robert Frank, Vivian Mayor. They all so vividly evoke what is now a distant era, an era that I can't quite touch, but I love to look at. That's what great photography was. Then along came Annie Leibovitz and there was a seismic shift. Suddenly rock stars were draped across motel beds, a new John Lennon cradled Yoko Ono. Whoopi Goldberg submerged in a bath of milk and it wasn't just celebrities either she shot officials rolling up Nixon's red carpet as he flew away in shame after resigning the presidency of the United States. She wasn't just photographing her subjects, okay? She was helping to define entire decades and careers and she's still doing it. Her images are intimate and elaborate, packed with intriguing narrative, often funny, iconic, touching and always daring. Annie Leibovitz blurs the lines between photojournalism and fine art portraiture. If you're under 50 and you've ever seen a photo of a celebrity that stopped you in your tracks, chances are it's an Annie Leibovitz. Now she's released Women 2, a follow up to her groundbreaking 1999 book Women, which featured a forward by her late partner of 16 years Susan Sontag that began, a photograph is not an opinion or is it? To any six years later in Women 2, Annie is still answering that question. She was the first woman ever to have a solo exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, DC and in 2016 she was inducted into the International Photography Hall of Fame. I have to say, Annie is the most sought after photographer in the world. Please welcome photographer, storyteller and witness to half a century of art, music and history, a mother and a woman who is so much wiser than me, Annie Leibovitz. Hi, Annie Leibovitz. No, I doubt that. No, I don't doubt that. I've had the great joy of looking and really doing a deep dive into your work as if I didn't know it already, but really doing a deep dive and holy crap. What an uvra. Do you know what? It's strange to me I haven't photographed you with all our crossing lines. I wanted to tell you right off that we need to do something. We should really think about it before we all go away. Oh my God, I would love that. I would love that. You're such a really good actor. Besides, you know, everything you've done. Oh, thanks. Wow. First of all, before we begin, are you comfortable if I ask your real age, Annie? Yeah, sure. How old are you? I'm 76 years old. Okay, how old do you feel? If you ask my daughters, sometimes some seven, sometimes some twelve. Most of the time, I think I feel more like 35 or 40, you know? What do you think the best part is about being your age? What'd you say? I just love getting older. I use kind of know what you're doing. Yeah. It doesn't mean what you're doing is good, or better, or whatever, it's still hard work, but you kind of know what you're doing. And there's something really nice about that. And then things I think naturally are slowing down. And I kind of, after running around like crazy, starting when I was very young. And so it's nice to kind of slow down a little bit. It's kind of great. Yeah. And do things a little bit more methodically, not methodically, but slower. I mean, it's great. What do you mean, do you mean physically slower, or do you mean physically? And it could be mentally too. You seem sharp. No, I'm like, I'm OK. I'm OK. I do love to move. I do love to move. It's for sure. You know, back in the day, I don't know if you remember this or not, I'm sure you do not. But you took a photograph of Michael Richards. And it was a photo of him in profile with shaving cream in his hair. And it was sort of this kind of organized looking chaos, which is so incredible. I was really moved by it. And I wrote to you. And I asked you, would you be so kind as to give me a copy? And you very generously sent me a signed copy of it, which I have to this day. And that photo, for me anyway, really tapped into him. And when you're working, I was wondering, with people in comedy, do you try to stay sort of in their brand? I have such profound respect and admiration for comedians. I mean, all along through my work, they're the life flow that goes through. They're so smart, they're so intelligent, they're so manic-depressive. You know? Yeah. Really under the radar, it seems like everyone really understands how brilliant our comedians are. And I don't know about you, I'm sure. But the last couple of years, I mean, they've sort of helped me survive with what comes across on Saturday Night Live out of Run to the Set to watch the show, just to sort of get through everything. So I mean, listen, I started off with, oh my God, Richard Pryor, Lily Tomlin. I was hung out with Richard Pryor, or got lost several days with Richard Pryor. Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. I know how hard it is to be funny in a photograph. It is hard, yeah. And you know, you have to go back to Charlie Chaplin just hanging from the clock, or being very physical. So I admire that imagery as well to try to sort of think of how to be funny without being stupid. Without being stupid? Yeah, it's kind of a fine line. I just think about Meryl Streep and the white face. Yes, of course. Like playing a role is really comfortable for almost any actor or comedian quite honestly. Yeah, totally, of course. I mean, well, I'd love to ask you about the portrait that you took of your mother. It's black and white, and she's looking right at you. Yeah. It's just really without affect, and the lighting is incredible. It's just really an extraordinary picture. And I remember reading that your mom said that she didn't want to look old in this photo. So I'm wondering, do you approach photographing older women differently than photographing younger women? Do you consider age at all when you're, is this a stupid question? I don't know. No, it's not a stupid question, but especially as I get older, I really, I mean, it sounds so corny, but I do find the beauty in every one of us. And, you know, I mean, when I think about the Whisper-Joy picture or Jane Goodall, or, you know, my mother was a whole other set of complicated issues because growing up with my mom, who's a hard act to follow, a very creative dancer, but never got a chance to really fulfill all of that. She grew up where she smiled for every picture, and then every picture, which took family pictures, she wanted it all to smile. So I began to distrust the smile. I didn't believe in the smile. And she actually, the photograph you're talking about, she sat for it and she was very nervous. And it actually, I mean, I actually was crying by the camera because it's not that I didn't want her to be, I didn't want her to be nervous, but she was nervous about looking older. And she was in her middle 70s, probably my age. And, you know, she didn't want to look old. What made you cry? Well, because she was so vulnerable. Yeah. I took that photograph and, you know, we have told the story many times, but she didn't like it. My father didn't like it because he said she wasn't smiling. But she grew to like it. You know, it was just nice. I mean, we had a big show with the quarker and we blew that picture up really big and she was standing next to it, signing, you know, like, autographs. She found her way back to it. She found her way. She started to like it. But it actually is such, I still learned from that photograph now because it took me a while. I mean, someone said to me, you know, your mother is really looking at you like she loves you. And I was like, no, no, I was like, but what is remarkable about the photograph? And this is where the bar is raised is that she really is looking as if there's no camera there. I mean, she's just looking at me. I mean, there's no camera there. And that is, I think as a photographer, especially if you're going to be interested in portraiture, you don't want to notice the camera. You don't want to think that there's something there. Yeah. You want that to go away. Right. Some photographs with time, they certainly do change. And they have other aspects to them. Right. And I would imagine that that photograph has new meaning now. Well, I think what I find remarkable is this stays constant. I mean, it's, I mean, I didn't get it at first. A lot of times, I don't get it at first. You didn't get what? I mean, I didn't get, I didn't get how good it was, I guess, on some level of my mother. I mean, I was really happy that it showed her intelligence. And she was a really intelligent woman. And she never broadcast that. That wasn't something she was always creative, life at the party, blah, blah. You know, and I think that has a lot to do with the time and the period for women. It's hard. I think it's hard to have your picture taken. Yeah, it is hard. I have tremendous empathy. However, a lot of it is in the subject's lap. I mean, it is has a lot to do with what they can bring to this session. Are you comfortable having your photo taken? I can't stand it. Yeah, no. You can't stand it. No, I know that again. And you know what it is? It's what I do. I've sort of given up on that. Because, seriously, because there's so many different ways you can take a picture. Number one, and number two, if it's someone that you think is a good photographer, and there are few and far between on some level, might trust what might happen, regardless of how it sort of looks. But I'm sort of like, you know, I gave up and I kind of lay said, okay, just take my picture out of Gary. And it's like, it's not like, because they can't very few people can really put the time in it to do it in a way that they know what they're doing. But what about if you take a picture of yourself, Annie? Like, does that happen? Yeah. I'm curious about that, because I wonder if the image that you get matches the image that you have of yourself? Sometimes, I think I make myself a little better looking than a little better, I mean, or kind of a better version of how it's so weird. But have you, when you look at yourself in the mirror, it's the opposite of what you're actually getting. Other people are looking at. You know, it's backwards. It's backwards. It is so weird. And then, you know, like, you know, it was so funny, because, you know, I, first of all, I love photography and I admire photography. And I like, I've studied not, not, you know, not a purpose so much, but I've just looked at every single photo book that's ever kind of existed in every photographer and really learned and grew up with amazing photographers, like, looking at Avidon and Irving Penn and Helmut Newton and Geik Geberdan. And, you know, so it's funny when you, and even, even Dianne Arbis, when you think about, you know, Dianne Arbis, and then you sort of notice, it's so interesting with the camera phone now, because people are beginning to sort of see other parts of themselves. But, like, when you see someone who knows they don't, they never see the back of their head, you know, you know, if you've met people, when you realize that, because, yeah, I know. I'm probably one of those people that hasn't seen the back of my head. Well, the back of your head may look like my, it's funny. You see that? What does that look like compared to, you know, the front? And some people don't take care of the back of their head. They say they're moving. No, it looks like they got out of bed. I know. It's three quarters all the time, totally. You know, I have to say that if I'm having my picture taken which I have a real, frankly, love-hate relationship with, because as to your point about trust. Well, it has a lot to do about whether you like yourself or like the way you look, you know, I think. It does, but also you've got to really trust the person you're with, because it's a really, in my view, it's a very intimate process if it's going well. And so you're giving over to somebody who has a control, which always kind of scares me a little bit. But I love seeing you like this, by the way. Like what? Right now. I don't know what it is. It's just no, no. Well, get your camera. No, I wouldn't work. I'm coming through this funny machine. No, no, no, no. It's definitely with it feeds into, you know, how. I think you're always probably a little more refined when you go into your photograph. I don't know what I'm saying. Don't know, really. Yeah, I've got hair and makeup, you know, for starters. There's that. That's true. Yeah. And obviously, I mean, I don't have any hair and makeup today for our conversation. So I do have a little lipstick. But anyway, you have a really great skin. I love face. But I will say that the amazing photo that you took of Demi Moore, of course, the iconic one, when she was pregnant with her second kid. And that was like, you know, everybody was to coin a phrase, gobsmacked by it. And I wanted to tell you something about that photo that was really important to me. So I'd had my first child the year before. And I was not somebody who was comfortable in my own body. When I was pregnant, I felt enormous. I wasn't enormous, frankly. And I never felt beautiful. And then I saw that cover. And I thought, oh, wow. That is a beautiful body, a pregnant woman's body. You know, I do want to point out with Demi Moore. Sure. That because again, we didn't really know 100% what we were doing. And it didn't think it was publishable exactly at the time. And it did get taken off the new stands in the South. Oh, it did? I didn't know this. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. These magazines take chances when they do things like that. Wow. You framed it differently for me. And I just wanted to thank you for that. Because it really was a, that opened up my mind in a way that it hadn't been. So thanks. I mean, I'm just looking. I mean, I have this. I'm just learning how to talk about the women's book. But in glorious essay, and I pulled this out because I think it is so important. How we are seen changes how we see ourselves. Now, what that means is it's important to, when you saw Demi Moore, you saw how you could see yourself, I think. Like, we need these photographs and these stories of women to inspire us. You know, question. Only because we're in a kind of terrible moment in this country. Yes, we are. And for women, particularly since Roe versus Wade was overturned. But, and then being awkward, being an awkward young person, having the camera and giving me a license to be somewhere. And it's interesting to understand. I mean, and this again is in glorious essay. But can I read this thing from? Yes, you're talking about Gloria Steinems essay that opens your new book, Women 2. Yeah. Okay. I didn't grow up in a world in which women are viewed as powerful as men. Gloria says, I know many people now feel our country is going backwards. But when you have lived a long life, which I am lucky to have done, you have a context of compared to what? Being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored. I remember time, she says, when thoughtful male journalists would look at a room full of women and say, there's no one here. So one of the reasons I pulled this out is this really is what was happening when I was young is I would be in rooms and no one took me seriously, no one thought you could do anything. And I actually used that and loved it. And it was kind of like frustrating for me when I got better known. My subject will come up and start talking to me and say, no, no, stay with her. You know, so I could take a photograph. Right. It was something as a photographer, you could use that no one paid any attention to you. But as a woman period, it was very strange for sure. We'll be right back with more of my conversation with Annie Leibovitz after this quick break. Hey, prime members. Did you know you can listen to Wiser than me, Add Free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening, Add Free. 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You like to work elsewhere. Can you talk about why that is? What is it about working in a studio? If you still think of a very good studio photographer. Give me a break. No, no, you're so great. Listen, I had to learn how to do it. It doesn't give me enough or even my subject enough real life going on. I don't know what it is. It's so down to the person and me. That's just too scary to me. I just like a breeze or something. Anything else. Rain happening or I love landscape. I also really, when we're setting up portraits, love to start at someone's home if we can't because there's a chair you sit in. You're comfortable. You can go off and change your shirt or do something. There's something about it. It's not something about it. It's just more ideal. But obviously, some people are more private. I notice a lot of your work, a lot of your photographs or many, I should say, people are in bed, which I love. Oh, no, no, no, no. So funny. Go ahead. Well, I love it because there's something obviously very intimate. I think people get relaxed when they're in bed. I mean, I don't mean in bed necessarily posing in bed. I just mean in bed. Well, there's a great. I love bed. There's a great tradition to all that. No, Peter Yuzhar, there's a big resurgence of his work. But all of his portraits were people lying down in his bed. They would come and lay down. Actually, my favorite picture of Susan Sontag is her reclined in his bed, laying down. They're still clothed and they're just laying down. But there was a period I was doing so many people in their beds that I came home from a shoot one day and Susan said, would you stop photographing people in their beds? Just stop it. It's like, it's too much. So, you know, I started looking at Brad Pitt in this orange bed. Yes. I was just starting to look at, I guess, I guess she's right. You know, I have too many people in bed. So I went, I had to sort of stop. It was terrible. Yeah, but I'm going to say I think there's value to it. I really do. I think there's something I understand it. And I don't know. I personally dig it. So, you know, I remember growing up and my mom and dad would be on Sundays, particularly all the funny papers would be in the bed. Yeah. We'd all get in bed. I know we would too in my family. We would get in bed with my parents. It was really cozy corners. I liked it. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. What kind of kid were you like? Describe who you were as a child. Unformed, of course. Certainly unformed, you know, really unformed. But were you driven as a child? Were you sort of drawn to art in some way? Well, we were brought up, all of us were brought up in one of six kids. So, first of all, you always felt abandoned. You were never, because you were one of six. Like you never got any. And you were number three, I think, is that right? Number three. Yeah. And we moved a lot. Yeah. Which I loved. And kind of, I think I've talked about this before. But it follows through into the assignment work. You know, basically we would be in a block. See Mrs. Cimbe for two years and then move to Fort Worth, Texas or something. So, you know, when things got to be, oh, it's not really great here. I'm not having a great time. You knew you were going to leave. So, so you didn't have to. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, you could always reinvent yourself in the next town. Uh-huh. That's actually really interesting. You knew you were going to leave. God. So, you didn't have like a sense when you were a kid of sort of longing to stand one place. You were kind of, you dug the moving around. Wanted to leave. Yeah. Wanted to leave. You wanted to go. I had a certain point. Wow. And so, my brothers and sisters were my best friends. Um, I have very, she childhood friends that I can say, I don't have any kind of thing of it. Really? Because we moved so much. And it's always been about family. Always been about family, which is why I wanted to have children along or not. Yeah. But, wow. And beating into us early on, you know, like it's about family. It's about family. Well, it is ultimately, I think. It is. And right now, it really is. Yeah. Yeah, right now it really is. Yeah. Right now we really have to hold each other and our communities and our people together. Yeah. Just outside of it, it's a little strange. So I'm going straight in Rolling Stone. You were there. Essentially, the inception of Rolling Stone. Were you a music lover? No. No, no, no. I know. Um, it's really important to realize that I went to the San Francisco Art Institute as a painting major and then I took a night class and photography and then I became totally seduced and interested in photography and the dark room and everything. And I was interested in photography. Yes. And when I went to Rolling Stone, it was a young magazine that did more of the music. They did popular culture. Right. They were politics a lot. And I, you know, travel with people like Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolf and went down, you know, spacial launches. It was like the music was like so predictable to me. You know, that work. I mean, you were sort of at the, the mercy of whatever lighting person was, you know, with drugs they were on, you know, lighting the stage. Yeah. I mean, it was like the worst worst. I, you know, I wasn't interested in, uh, I wasn't a rock and roll photographer. I was a photographer and I applied what I had, you know, to, to that. So I mean, I love music. You know, I remember when I did the Rolling Stones tour as their tour photographer in 1975, I wished I was on Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour. You know, I didn't really love the Rolling Stones music. You know, it was like, I thought, okay, you know, okay, Robert Frank, you know, was on their tour, you know, a couple of years before and did, you know, this film called Cut, Cut Suckers Blues, which you never got seen. But I said, okay, okay. You know, because, you know, Mick Jagger called me up and said, would you be the tour photographer? I did it and it almost killed me. Yeah. Because I was so naive. And did it kill you from the drug point of view and addiction and all of that or the schedule or all of the above and never sleeping? I'm assuming all of that. Probably all above. I mean, it goes, you know, taking drugs goes with, you know, not going to sleep. We're staying up for two or three days or, right. Yeah, that, yeah, it does go with that. That's the equation. But I didn't like it at all. I mean, I didn't like that it took over. I feel it was, so was not me. And then took me while to not be that. Mm-hmm. So how did you not be that? Well, I tried, I tried many, I was trying to see, um, therapists and people in blah, blah, blah. And then I eventually, I went into a place in, in some of New Jersey for a month. And I just, like that, it was over. Oh, you mean a rehab place? Yeah. It was just over. It was just over. I got the help I needed and it was like, I so encourage anyone. It's like, because, you know, I really want to do that. And then it's like, it's like, it's like, it gave you all the tools you needed to not do it and then you just move on. Oh, God. It's lucky for you that it worked as well as it did, my God, because a lot of people, that is not the case. But, I know. That's awesome. Can you tell the story, by the way, of, because it's a remarkable story and I think it speaks to your, the ballsiness of you, even if you didn't feel it, of the first time that you photographed John Lennon? No, I mean, I, I, you know, again, was very young. I must, you know, just started working at Rolling Stone. I had heard that John was going to New York to interview John. And I started to talk about it and said, you know, why don't you let me go and take the picture? You know, yeah, I can stay with friends and fly youth fair for $75. And, and you can own the negatives, I said. Of course that part, you really liked. And, and I, and I think that's why I got to go. Yeah. But he was such an important sitting because it set for me what would be the predecessor for all the work I did from then on. And I, because John and Yoko were so welcoming and easy and without affectation. Yeah. And they just let me roam around and, you know, I found out later that I think Yoko finally told me this like 20 years later or something that they basically, they were just so thrown that John had and hired some big fancy photographer, you know, that they, they just kind of, you know, and I was like, so young and they just thought it was nice, you know, so they, they were so nice. Oh, and then you got that amazing photo. I think when you were just checking the light meter or something. Yeah. And to be clear, this is a solo portrait of John, not the one that you took a decade later of John and Yoko in bed together. Yeah, yeah. The solo one. So I had, at that point, I was trying to be, you know, Margaret were quite from Life Magazine and I had like, you know, I'm with you all those stages, you know, like, I'm, I mean, you know, Eugene Smith and Life Magazine, I'm a photojournalist. That's what I am. But I had three cameras. I had a camera that had a longer lens on a 105 that had a light meter in it. So I would use that as my light meter. And it wasn't a lens I liked. The 105 was a longer lens. And then I had another camera that had a 35, which is Cardiabrazzan's Robert Frank's, you know, lens of choice, which is more closer to how the ICs. It's a little wider and it's more environmental. And so I was literally taking a light meter reading with John at the end of the table in a room and, and I took a couple pictures at the same time. And then it was Yon who liked that picture. And I didn't like it because it wasn't my kind of picture. You know, I didn't like a long lens picture. Yeah, but you know what's interesting to about that picture actually that is just occurred to me is that there's no affect to it. It sort of reminds me of the portrait of your mom in that sense. That's right. There's nothing between them and the lens. It's just truth. Yeah. That's hard to get. You know, I don't know if it's so hard to get is it is to realize that that's there. And it's not gotten. Oh, I see. You know, I think I have a little more to learn. Mm-hmm. For sure. What have you ever made a mistake? One turned it. Wait, listen, yeah, that's the question. I think I made a mistake, Annie Liebowitz. That's why I could turn you back. They're all mistakes. And turn no, like can you cite and maybe the London thing is an example of that of making a mistake really a bad screw up and turning it into an asset somehow with your work. Well, I mean, it's hard to even understand that question because on some level, things happen like that. I mean, it's, yeah, there's a lot of, I think about the Nancy Pelosi picture where when she's walking away, spending three days with her at the Capitol and I'm trying to catch up with her and she's in high heels and she's, I can't, I cannot catch up with this woman. I was trying to get in front of her, you know, like, and I couldn't do it. And I just, you know, shot and I just, you know, with, you know, I go back to my studio where it was. I thought this is such a failure. And I looked at it and I said, oh my God, that's the Nancy Pelosi. You can't keep up with her. You know, she's like, you know, she's like running, you know, there's men couldn't keep up with her. And I just loved it. I just loved it. I mean, I go into a shoot and you try to be as prepared as possible. And then you hope for something will happen that didn't expect her. You want, you want something to happen that I'm a very good editor. I'm a very good editor. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that's on the floor, you know, that's like, you want to throw away. I'm not worried about how many pictures I take, you know, because I know that I'm a very good editor. I love that story about Nancy. You know, we talked to her on this podcast. Yeah. You know, what was really remarkable is that she's a big chocolate lover. And so I gave her a box of chocolates. And this one in particular, we did this in person. And I'll be God damn, she didn't start eating those chocolates, right? As we were talking. And it was actually really nice because I felt like she was loosening up. You know what I mean? And she was talking with chocolate in her mouth. It was just awesome. Anyway, I digress. No, that's not digress. I love that. That's great. Okay. It's time for another break, more with Annie Leibovitz in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wizer the Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Annie Leibovitz and more. You can subscribe at wizertheme.substac.com. You'll get photos and videos and letters from me. Think like exclusive bonus snippets, splimpses behind the scenes of making the podcast a deeper dive into every guest plus a place to connect with other Wizer The Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wizertheme.substac.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. Spring invites a reset. Windows open, shelves cleared, only what's useful and well made, Captain rotation. Closets can follow the same rule. Fewer pieces, better pieces, nothing wasteful. If it's not versatile, thoughtfully constructed and built to last, it doesn't deserve a hanger. That's where quince stands out. Elevated fabrics, clean cuts and pricing that makes choosing quality over quantity feel both sustainable and smart. 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And I don't have to feel guilty when my zucchini gets moldy. Plus it looks cool. Yeah, this trash can alternative is so fly people keep asking me where I got the giant Alexa. It's chic and savvy, but you have to live with mill to really get it. Good thing. You can try it risk free for 90 days right now and get $75 off with code hmdk. Visit mill.com slash hmdk. That is mill.com slash hmdk. I want to talk about Susan and your partnership with Susan. And frankly, you know, a lot of people who listen to this thing, there's a lot of course grief is a part of life. And if you've lived to a certain age, you know, you are going to have to walk with grief and be with it. So I wanted to talk to you about that period of time in your life when you lost your partner, Susan, Sontag and your father. And you were having all these babies all within a very short period of time. It was amazing. It was amazing. How did you do it? You do it. You know, we, we, um, when Susan died, I wasn't even too sure I had any photographs of her. Hmm. But so, so she died and I tried when she died and at some level, um, you know, because it went over a long period of time, you know, when that happens, you're, you're, there's a kind of a sense of relief as well. You know, that this person can be over that, you know, basically they, they're, they're on. Although she never, it was really hard as she never really wanted to die. So, you know, that was really hard. Um, she said, I think I just have five more years. I was like, yeah. Um, but we're all going to, you know, we're all certainly going to have there. We're all going to bite it at some point. For sure. Um, so there was that work. And then I had all this, this, this, these photographs, I've, oh, I've never stopped taking photographs of my family. I love my family. I think they're in my best photographs. And then, you know, the children came along and there was that whole period. And then Susan would get mad at me because she thought I didn't take enough pictures. She said, why are you taking more pictures? And I was like, she should get mad at me about everything. But so when you see a photographer's life, you know, I am really photographing her because she wants to be photographed towards the end of her life. It was really her wanting that. Anyway, photographer's life is my best book because it's working. You see all of that and you see the story of every man. And you see the Simon work at the same time going on, you know, like Colin Powell and, you know, yeah, I know it's interesting how it all bumps up against each other. You know, it's weird too when you have these big events happen. I'm sure lots of people have this experience. I certainly have like when I had a baby the first time in my world is turned upside down the way it does for any mother and all the sudden you and your life and your ego is on the back burner because somebody else's ego is front burner and you're in charge. And that's a flip of a switch that's a biggie. And I remember thinking, wow, and then, you know, and I'm driving in the car and he's in the car seat and life is going on just like it was. What the hell? And your book tells that story. It sounds like your work got you through that period of time. Totally. I've said that about this that definitely I was really lucky to have my work. Yeah. And I'll tell you when I worked on it, when I worked on the edit, upstate in my barn, I mean, I was so deep into it. It really was my year of magical thinking, you know, you know, John Didian. It's really, it really is, you go a little, you go insane, you know, you really, you really do. And I, and I worked on the edit for the book and it was like, I remember it was over 400 pages. And I took it into Andrew Wiley, my agent, you know, to look at it and he went through it. And I kept waiting for someone to say, you can't do this book. It's 400 pages, you know, you have to edit it down to 200 or something. Right. And no one ever said that. They were, I think we were afraid to tell me, you know, to edit or anything. And we, we published it for over 400 pages of these pictures. And I never really, I never really thought anyone was looking at it. I mean, I never thought anyone would look at it. You know what I mean? It was, it was, it wasn't like something I did for anyone else. I did it for myself. And so it was very strange when people started looking at it. I realized I had exposed my life. I don't think I could ever do that again like that. You know, I especially not with my children. I mean, they said that to me a few years back. They said, oh, they did. Yeah. I mean, and you have to respect that. Of course. For sure. How old are they now? Well, Sarah's 24 and Susan and Samuel are 20, 19, 20, they're 20. Yeah. I know. Well, right. I know. They're pretty cool. Was it hard for you when your kids took off for college and stuff? And I remember the, the COVID drop off was, was tough because they just said, okay, drop them off. And I was like, what? What? I can't go to up to their room and just straighten out. Yeah. Bad or something. Right. I just went into, I went to a corner and cried. It was like me too. Yeah. You know, I'm in fact with the, with our first son when we had both of them and we dropped our first son off. And I remember really having to keep it together because I didn't want to lose my shit in front of my younger son who was, you know, 13 at the time. But then when we dropped off our second kid, I started crying like we had had a horrific death in the family. And my husband had to say to the taxi driver, my wife's okay. It's all right. I just let it go. It's a bummer. I don't know. What's your experience now that sort of there are a little bit past that moment? I mean, I know your younger ones are still studying, but yeah, they're still. I mean, if I'm having any issue now about being older is that I decided to have them older. And I, you know, and my, my older daughter gets mad at me if I don't take care of my, I said, but not me. I want you to look, you know, they're longer. And I was like, you know, and you, you worry about that. But I, I believed in setting by example, by just working and then letting them see me work. For sure. And not necessarily being so, so smothering and so close because I, I just knew I was an older mom. And, and I knew they were going to have to sort of deal with, with me leaving earlier than, you know, then possibly being around. But were you always sanguine with it like that? I mean, you sound very, I think part of even having more than one child was, so they would have each other because I, you know, I'm very close with my siblings. And, yes. You know, when our parents did pass, you know, we, we really did close rank, you know, we, we really are tighter. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. My husband's father, I was used to say that his biggest accomplishment was that his own children were close. And I think that there's something to be said for that. I mean, you do realize it's pretty lucky what you have with your, your sibling because a lot of families are not like that. That's right. Yeah. It's more families are not like that, actually. Oh, God, dammit. I don't know if it was Margaret Meade. Somebody said, somebody said the big life challenge was to reconcile a sibling relationship. And if you can do that, you're well on your way, something to that effect. I don't know if it's Margaret Meade or not. We could say it is. Doesn't sound like Margaret Meade, do you think? No, it really doesn't. It sounds like me bullshit. That's Jane Goodall. She's talking about chimpanzees. I do love that picture. I just, that's, you know, funny thing finally looking at that picture of Jane Goodall and then like realizing, oh, because it was a very quick, it's a very quick shoot. And, um, and of course I want it to be in the jungle with her or something. And then, uh, where were you? No, we were like backstage. So where I had like 10 minutes with her or something like that. And she hates having her picture taken. And maybe after those circuit fans that she hated it. And, um, you know, I, I took several pictures and went away from it. And then I looked at her face and said, oh my god. Because at a certain point she just stopped and gave me this look. And after like, you know, hating it, hating it. And then she stopped and looked at me and I realized, oh my god, she's looking at me. That's why those chimpanzees really trust her because she was looking at, she, she was like dealing with it because everything's in her face. Totally. And I have to say, am I crazy? But when I, I was looking at those pictures of her in your book and I thought, oh my god. Did she look like this stunning chimpanzee in these photos? I'm not kidding. Okay. Now you're taking a two-bar. No, but I think it could have been the look because that look. Yeah. I mean, that's not a look for a photograph. That is like, like, okay, I'm going to deal with this person who's insane. And I'm going to like, you know, try to calm them down. And I'm going to do this. Yeah. I mean, what an incredible woman. She, she was a powerhouse. Yeah. But wait a minute. I want to go back to you having kids for a second. So you had your kids when you were in your 50s. I'm not telling you. Oh, come on. You told me I will. No, no, no, no. I was, yeah, exactly 50. Yeah. Exactly. 49.50. You know what happened was, I was seeing my, my doctor and, and I was just crying because I said, I realized it was my late 40s. And I said, I can't believe I'd let this time go by and, and I haven't done this. You know, and I haven't had children. And, you know, Susan was an interested in children. And because she was a big child. And, you know, and it wasn't interested. And I would talk about it every now and then. And she was not interested. And we didn't, besides we didn't really have that kind of relationship. You know, we had two separate apartments and she really had her, you know, but we had our own world, but we really supported each other tremendously. But so, so he said to me, you can do it. And I said, really? And, and I did it. Well, was it hard to be pregnant at that age or not so much? No, not really. I was working. I was working. Yeah. Right. When I'm working, I remember going down and doing Willie Nelson. And I was really pregnant. And there was so much pot, you know, and it's like, we were all stoned. My whole family and whole family. I'm sorry. My whole crew. And then we all went to, you know, what is it that salt pit afterwards? I have like, you know, ribs or something because we crazy because we were with stone. We were, we had second, you know, what is it? Second hand smoke. Second hand smoke. And it's like, I love Willie Nelson. Okay. He is the greatest. Okay. Now, let me ask you a couple of quick questions. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at the age of 21? I feel really lucky. What I had the opportunity to do. I don't know if I would want to be 21 again. No, I wouldn't. For sure. Yeah. Forget it. I mean, I edited my first half of my 1973 to 1983. I edited that those 10 years in depth. And I can stand outside of myself and look at that work and see this kind of energy and verve and insanity of the way I was working. And I kind of love whoever that person was, but I would want to be that person again. So I'm guessing then what another question that I often ask folks is, is there something that you wish you'd said yes to? But it sounds like you said yes to everything that you wanted to say yes to. That was the problem. I mean, everything was just too interesting. Yeah, right. Everything. Every single thing was interesting. I was just interested in everything. What are you looking forward to? I just am so lucky that I love what I do. And I think it's the key is what you hope for your children as they find something they love to do. Please, Christ. Because it's just really makes it all just so incredible. Oh, it truly does. There's nothing more rewarding than that for real. So any one final question is there anything you want me to know about aging? I think we started at the very beginning just to say that I'm really enjoying it. You know, I mean, I'm enjoying kind of knowing what I'm doing except for this sort of stuff. Podcast stuff. You did good. You did good. No, no, no. You did. I mean, you know, here's what I know because we had a conversation which I appreciate. Yeah. You know, I like when we go off and we go somewhere else and I mean, I'm enjoying it. Fuck it. What choice do we have and let's go. And there's a lot to do still. One step at a time here, you know, one step at a time. And I really admire you and I am very grateful. I am. I really do admire you in an enormous amount. I really do. I always have. So thanks for taking the time today. Thank you, Julie. Thank you. Well, Annie Leibovitz is an extraordinary human being. There's no doubt about it. I know my mom thinks so too. So I can't wait to hear what she has to say about my conversation with Annie. Let's get her on the Zoom. Hi, mommy. Hello, Abby. How are you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine. How are you doing? I'm exhausted and very happy. I just had a really nice conversation with Annie Leibovitz. What a figure, right? Totally. But the other thing was incredible about Annie was having a baby when she was 52. She had a baby when she, her first baby when she was 50 and then she had twins four years later. She had the twins by a surrogate, but these are her babies who are now in their early 20s. Isn't that incredible? Incredible. Now, where she got the strength and the confidence to do that in her 50s? Yeah, I can remember reading about that at the time and thinking how possibly what she had to do to her body and what she had to go through was incredible. And she must have had a drive that was enormous to do that. Yeah, I know. I admire her for it. So here is something else that she said, which I thought is really interesting to think about. She says her mother always wanted them to smile in photos because they took a lot of family photos. She is one of six kids. And she has learned to never trust a smile says Annie. Actually, you look at family pictures and they all have these smiles pasted. We all have our smiles pasted on our face. Yeah. And it's funny because you and I both have really big smiles. We have, you know, I inherited this big jaw from you. You're right. This big, this big mouth. And I'm very used to smiling for photos and people, even photographers have always said, you know, they want me to smile. Sometimes it's like less smile. Actually, one time I was, I was having my photo taken at the DMV. And the ladies, they took it and then she looked at me and she goes, okay, let's do one more. A little less smile. And you know what else this reminds me of mom? Do you remember that story about Henry when you were trying to take his picture? You came when Charlie, our second son was born. Will you tell what Henry said to you? You're trying to take his picture. Yeah. And he was with Charlie. And I said to him, I don't remember. I said, smile, but I said, look happy. And so he said, uh, Granny, I haven't been happy one single day since Charlie was born. Now, by the way, I'd like to say the, the two boys are now like, no, I know they're joined at the hip. Want that to for sure, the Charlie knows that he was so welcome in the world. But no, of course, no back. No, no, it was there. But the thing is it was an honest child reaction to the moment and to your point, you know, their thickest thieves, those two. And I remember that somebody said to me, one time if you can survive, a sibling, you couldn't survive anything in life. Well, now who said that? Because I mentioned this to Annie Leibovitz and I thought maybe it was Margaret Meade, but it wasn't. Who wasn't? I have no idea. Maybe you've heard me say it before. Yes, then you were the one I was quoting, but you don't know who you were quoting. No, I don't know who I was quoting. I didn't make it up. Yeah. Okay. So I got news for you. It is Margaret Meade. Okay. Listen to this. Sister is probably the most competitive relationship within the family. But once the sisters are grown, it becomes the strongest relationship. I would replace the word sister with sibling. Well, anyway, that sort of dances around the idea, I guess, right? Right. Right. You know, sharing a parent's love is like threatening beyond measure. And that's what happens with the sibling. You have to share the love. And that's, especially if you're the, you know, the king or the queen and you're used to having it all to yourself and then all of a sudden, when this little wee wee. Yeah. I know. I mean, it is such a hard transition to make, but then once that transition is made, you know, you're the better for it. The siblings are, like I said, they're just joined at the hip. All right, mom. I'm happy I got to chat with you once again. Same for me. I'm always happy to chat with you the more the merrier. Okay. Love you, mom. Have a fabulous day. You too. Love you. Love you. There's more wiser than me with lemon, not a premium. You can now listen to every episode, add free plus subscribers, also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts, head to lemon audit premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen, add free on Amazon music with your prime membership. That's lemon audit premium dot com. Make sure you're following wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than me and we're on Facebook at wiser than me podcast. We're also on sub stack at wiser than me dot sub stack dot com. Wiser than me is a production of lemon audit media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy P's and O. Ha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles wax, Jessica, Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlagel and of course my mother Judith Boles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.