Episode 345: Parenting Without a Roadmap: Not Carrying Your Childhood Trauma into Theirs with Dr. Juli Fraga

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Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm Sissy Goff and I'm David Thomas and we're so glad you joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Dr. Julie Fraga is a psychologist in San Francisco where she specializes in concerns related to parenting, relational trauma and perinatal mood concerns. Dr. Fraga is the co-author of the book Parents Have Feelings To, which we are so excited to unpack with you in this conversation. She also writes for The New York Times, Time and The Washington Post. You all are going to want to stick around to the very end because this episode was packed full of so much good learning for us as parents. Well Julie, I had the great pleasure of intersecting with you. You and I had a wonderful conversation through an interview and I immediately said to Sissy, just wait, you're going to fall in love with her and we have to have her on the podcast. He did. You were thrilled when you said yes to this invitation and let's just start with for folks who have not yet found their way to your work, which we're so excited for that to happen. Will you just talk a little bit about the work you do and even more importantly, what inspired you to write Parents Have Feelings To? Great. Well, first off, thank you so much for having me. I was so honored to be asked to join you on this podcast and to be in conversation. I know you and I, David, had such a great conversation. You know, when we talked about your books and it's such a delight to be here and talk some more. So I'm a psychologist and primarily I work with parents. Oftentimes parents who have really little kids or new parents, people who have just had babies. And I would say a majority, a good portion of my practice are parents who have survived in one way or another some type of relational trauma in their upbringing, meaning they grew up maybe with caregivers who weren't able to tune into their child's emotions for whatever, for one reason or the other, through oftentimes no fault of these parents, they probably had trauma in their upbringings as well, which left for a variety of reasons. That leaves these parents kind of, there's this author and another therapist that I really liked who wrote this book years ago called Mothering Without a Map. I just loved that title. Yes. And for lack of a better word, I mean, I think that just really encapsulates well has left these caregivers and parents parenting without a map, you know, trying to not repeat what was hurtful in, you know, with their kids, but also not knowing what to do because there's nothing quote unquote good enough to replicate. Yes. So grateful that you are working with parents who have had that experience because you're right. I mean, I think it's overwhelming for anyone, but especially folks who feel like they don't have a roadmap and they don't have a model for what it looks like. Just makes me really grateful for your voice to Lee and and we would love for you to talk about from the book. You know, we talk so much with parents about doing their own work and and we love that your work is feels like an extension of that idea and that you are coming alongside in such a grace filled way for parents, even the way you structured your answer to that. So thinking about it being essential for the entire family for parents to be able to understand and attend to their own emotions. Will you talk more about that? Yeah, I mean, I think so much in the parenting world and I'm sure you see this, I think David and I talked about this. It's all about helping the child with their emotions starting when they're, you know, a little toddler and their nervous systems are less developed and they don't have, you know, language skills and they're having big feelings and something their feet. But what does that mean for any parent if we're not able to do that for ourselves, if we're not able to name and validate our own emotions? I mean, it really starts the work starts from within it doesn't start from outside of ourselves by, you know, we can tune into that child who's having a hard emotion, having some anger, having sadness, even saying they dislike us when we're able to really tune in with our own emotions. I feel like that's one way that parents in terms of the support that I think they really need, especially these days, really sometimes gets missed. Sometimes gets missed in the work around parenting. And so hopefully to give parents these really, you know, life changing tools that are not hard, you know, to implement so that they have that foundation within themselves so that they feel supported. And then from that foundation, they're better able to support their children throughout their lives, not just when they're little, you know, feelings are part of every day of every minute with whatever they might encounter or face. And not just within the home kids face so many things right at school, you know, find a college going off on their own. Yeah. Yes. Julie, an important theme in your book is that parenting brings up old wounds, fears and insecurities. So how would you say that parents can learn to recognize when a big feeling belongs to them rather than their child? That's such a great question. I think a great way to be able to tell is if there's maybe even some rigid thinking around something, you know, and if you're feeling like you have to do something a certain way, even when the information from your child says otherwise, you know, and I'll give a personal example like from my own life that we were just talking about the holidays. But I grew up in the Midwest and I grew up in a family that, you know, we did not have a ton of money by any means. And so growing up with the holidays, I mean, absolutely there were gifts and I didn't go without anything. So I'm not meaning to criticize my mom or, you know, caregivers in any way. And yet, you know, when you're a kid and you go to school and, you know, all the kids, I mean, back then it'd be like, show and tell, stand up and tell everybody what you received for Christmas. You know, when you wanted the, you know, the popular toy back then it was the cabbage patch doll. You know, there can, yeah, a little bit of sadness or feeling left out. So, you know, as a mom when my daughter was born, I think there was this real desire to like have this huge Christmas, give her all of these gifts. And I couldn't even see it at the time. But, you know, I really realize it now that yes, of course I was doing that for her, but mostly I was doing it for me. Like she didn't really need all or maybe even want all of these gifts. She doesn't carry the wound from my childhood. And that's something that I oftentimes remind parents of when they feel stuck in that way, you know, is to share with them. Remember, like your child doesn't have your childhood. They have their own childhood. And that begins with kind of with you and kind of your tuning in with them and parenting them. I love that statement. She doesn't carry the wound from my childhood. That's such a beautiful reminder because it is so easy to parent out of that place. 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I think, you know, acknowledging our own emotions and recognizing, I think a lot of people, there's so many myths in our society, you know, about emotions. One, maybe that we can outsmart our emotions, you know, emotions are a waste of time, especially I think for men and boys in our culture, you know, a lot of times, emotions, especially like sadness, mean you're weak in some way, you should be able to kind of just muster on through. And so recognizing also for parents and just, you know, for all of us, emotions really begin in the body. There's somatic signals, you know, and when we're able to tune in with the body, like the body will tell us the truth. It does not lie. Just like it doesn't lie when we're hungry and we have, you know, our stomach growls or when we're thirsty. And so for parents to be able to really focus inward, to notice really what's coming up in their body, let's say I'm angry, I might notice some tenderness in my jaw or in my voice. And to use that really as a cue to take a moment, take a pause to do something that's really calming. And oftentimes when the body is getting activated, meaning the nervous system, especially for parents where there's been some type of relational trauma, you know, or trauma in the past, that might mean doing something as simple as taking some really deep belly breath, you know. But like we say in the books, the more parents can come to whatever situation with their child from a place of calm, the better equipped they are to respond to whatever it is that the child is experiencing instead of react. Yeah. All right, let's build from that for parents listening who have struggled with finding their way to the calm. I love the way you talk about repair in your work. And so what does healthy repair look like after a parent loses their temper, gets flooded or shuts down? I think healthy repair really is responsibility taking. It also is not beating yourself up because I will see this sometimes with parents where they feel so terrible, you know, that there's been this rupture. But then when they apologize to their child, they berate themselves. I'm so sorry. I'm such a terrible mom. I'm the worst mom in the world. You must hate me. You must just think that I don't love you at all. Right. There are those emotions there, but that doesn't need to be part of the repair because inadvertently what that does is pass on some feelings of guilt to your child or put onto your child's shoulders. The need to take care of your emotions, you know, a repair can be as simple as I'm really sorry that I snapped at you right then. You know, I know that probably I know that didn't feel good with older kids, adolescents, teenagers. You know, I'm here if you want to talk about it. We never want to coerce our kids to talk about something in the moment because they're on their own timelines, you know, unless there's a safety issue. Right, of course. But to leave the door open, you know, for them to come back to it, and the more we do that, the more they know that they can come back to it. So I think that can be also maybe relieving, I hope, for parents that a repair means an apology, responsibility taking, and that it doesn't need to be this ginormous heavy emotional lift, you know. It certainly doesn't mean judging ourselves, berating ourselves or rationalizing also why we did something. You know, to our kids, like parents might say, I'm so sorry, I was just so tired. Sure, we all get tired and that might have been a reason that also doesn't need to be part of the repair. Because we want to keep it just as simple as possible in attunement with our kid right in that moment. Yes. That's great. Well, and so envisioning this happening, the parent has gone to the child and what I love about what you're saying is in that moment, we're really back to the idea of making it about the child and what the child needs rather than what's happening inside of us. And then we walk away. And at that moment, all of those feelings can easily flood back of I am a terrible parent. Why did I do that? And to feel all that guilt and shame, how would you help a parent reframe that in a way where they can give themselves grace when they feel those feelings? I mean, when those emotions, which are so strong, I mean, I don't think there's any emotion that's quite as painful. For any of us as shame, you know, it's something that makes us just want to hide. We just feel awful. And so it's not an emotion in that way that gets us to want to reflect on ourselves. You know, we might want to just kind of hide away from ourselves or stay in the shame loop and tell ourselves we're terrible. Or go, you know, we talk in the book about ways we all try to protect ourselves from emotions that feel and that are unbearable to go to a defense, you know, maybe then if there's too much shame, we just kind of withdraw. Maybe we spend too much time, I don't know, on our phones. Maybe we reach for an extra drink. And when that's really coming up in, you know, really strong way again to be able to ground in the body, you know, taking some deep breaths also, you know, that you don't have to do this on your own, you know, can you talk with your partner, you know, or a close family member, or if you're, you know, a close friend and share so that shame loves to hide. Yes. You know, loves to go undercover. I had this really tough moment with my kid. I'm really beating myself up. I could just really use some extra support. And then one of the best ways to work with shame is to, and this is hard to do on our own. Sometimes we need the support, even, you know, of therapists like yourselves. To be able to apply some curiosity, wow, what's going on for me in that moment right then, that that shame is coming up. Did I really do, am I really bad? Or do I just feel like I am? You know, is there some other emotion underneath that has nothing to do with this moment I just had with my kid at all? Is there another emotion underneath for me that I was never able to express when I was a kid that got, you know, activated there? Yes. Yes. That's a great question. Julie, for the parent listening who heard you talk about the work you do and is thinking to themselves, that's me. That's me. I'm parenting without a roadmap. What would you say are some practical ways for that parent to begin to model healthy emotional expression? I think some great ways are just starting with some self-reflection and getting to know, you know, kind of your own internal emotional world, especially as a parent. And in the book we have some great exercises throughout each chapter that we call self-awareness stretches that ask questions that invite parents to reflect. And one question that I really like that I think can be so illuminating for any parent, especially if they're kind of newer to, you know, looking at their own emotional world and how that influences the way they raise their kids. What is one thing you always wanted in your childhood from your parent or caregiver that you did not receive? And how does that influence the way that you raise your kid today? Or even we could get even more granular there. We could say, how does that influence your parenting decisions in this moment right now? Wow. That's a great question. Okay, I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately. Fewer pieces, better materials, quality over quantity, which is how I accidentally discovered something life changing. I feel a little nervous. Quince makes a short sleeve Mongolian cashmere polo. 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Go to quince.com slash RBG for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash RBG. It's the newest audio drama from the Augustine Institute, the award-winning team behind the adventures of Nick and Sam and the trials of St. Patrick. Set in the fictional mountain town of Hope Springs, the podcast follows a close group of friends who spend their days at the Old Depot. A newly restored train station until an innocent prank sparks a mystery that stretches across the entire town. Created by award-winning writer Paul McCusker, it's packed with humor, adventure and really thoughtful moments of friendship, courage and faith. It's the kind of show that sparks imagination without screens and it's perfect for listening together in the car or at home. Don't miss out. Follow Welcome to Hope Springs on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. You also offer some great concrete tools for emotion coaching and families. And we would love to hear one or two practices beyond, you've said some great ones already, that you would recommend that parents could try just this week to help normalize emotion and build more connection at home. I think some great tools are, you know, one, there's a great tool in the book and it's the main tool that we teach. And when I say we, I'm also referring to my wonderful co-author, Hilary Jacobs-Hendel, who is the one that brought the tool in the book called the Change Triangle. And in the book, we're calling it the Change Triangle Tool for Emotional Health for Parenting. But the Change Triangle wasn't developed by Hilary, it was developed by a psychotherapist many years ago, David Malin. Hilary brought this tool into the public, were used with her first book, but really the Change Triangle is a map that all parents can use to figure out how to work through whatever emotion or defense they're experiencing, you know. And it's a little maybe complicated to explain without having a visual representation, but, you know, somebody doesn't even need to buy the book to find that visual representation. They could just merely Google the Change Triangle and a lot of resources will come up even on our Instagram or from Hilary's Instagram, but really just orienting to what's going on inside of us. So on the Change Triangle, you know, it's an upside-down triangle. So if we think of, you know, two points, one on the left-hand side, we have what we call inhibitory emotions. And these emotions are anxiety, guilt, and shame. These emotions play a very specific role for all of us, which is oftentimes they help us to follow the rules of society when we don't experience them in, you know, really toxic amounts, right? Like, if I, you know, forget, let's say my mom's birthday, I might feel a little guilt and that prompts me to call her right away and apologize. So that's like really healthy guilt. But the other things that inhibitory emotions do in the world they serve, especially in the face of relational trauma for kids, is that they come up for kids because they allow them to stay connected with their caregivers, who they need so much for survival, when emotions like anger, sadness aren't allowed to be expressed because they're not validated, you know? And so what happens in childhood sometimes then inhibitory emotions, what they do, you know, kind of towards the bottom of the triangle are the core emotions. These are the survival emotions, sadness, anger, disgust, fear, joy, excitement. These emotions are all, I mean, think of them as like traffic signals, right? They kind of tell us what we need, what is good for us, what action to take, right? I mean, our kids can do things absolutely that anger us and that anger when used in a good way really helps us maybe to set a boundary with them that needs to be set, you know? Or sadness, right? Stateness for a lot of things that arise in parenting. Our kids getting older, nearing kind of, you know, going off to college, not needing us as much as they used to. But if we can't connect with those core emotions and name and validate them, we run the risk of them coming out sideways, you know? And that kind of gets back to, you know, the earlier question of how does a parent know when, you know, maybe some of their own, you know, what they've dealt with in their childhood is playing a role in parenting. Because if I'm not in touch with the fact I feel sad, I might go then to, you know, the other corner of the triangle, which is what we call defenses. Anything we do really to, you know, kind of make an unbearable emotion less painful. So an example might be if I don't know that I'm sad because my child's pulling away from me. And that's so unbearable. I just can't even fathom it. I don't want it to happen. So I might do something which is to try to be too controlling, you know, trying to, where I might induce guilt. You never want to spend time with mom anymore. Oh, you're just getting so big. You just want to go off on your own. And of course, there's no shame in having any of these emotions. We all experience them. But the goal is to be able to use the tool so that we can again identify as parents what's going on for us internally in our emotional lives and find a way to work with that emotion. So we can come to tuning in with our kids from a place really of calm, from being able to bring some curiosity to a situation, you know, what might be going on for myself right now, what might be going on for my kid. And, you know, just kids also rely on their defenses as a way to, you know, protect themselves from unbearable emotions. So when your adolescent comes home and you said, how was your day? And they give a snappy retort, it might not be because they mean to talk back to you. Maybe something happened in their day with a friend or with a teacher that didn't feel good, you know, and they're not even aware of it and that they're going to their own defense. You know, that's so helpful. I know, I'm not familiar with the change triangle, so I need to do more research. That's really helpful. Julie, we'd love to ask you this. What signs should parents look for that suggests they might need additional support, whether that's therapy, community rest, rather than simply pushing through? I would say, first, I think all parents really in this day and age, all of us need support. And I think also all parents, just as humans, I feel like so many of us have these dependency conflicts where we'd rather help somebody than ask for help, you know, and to kind of not see it as a one way streak, but to see it as a circle, you know, of community, of joining hands that we're all there to support you. And I think that's really helpful for each other. And that in terms of therapy, you know, if there are just really painful things in your childhood that you've maybe never told anyone, if there are things that you don't want to repeat from your childhood, but you find yourself unsure kind of out to parent differently, you know, that might be assigned to reach out for some additional support. If you're continually bumping into things with your kid, you know, getting into, of course, temperament plays a role, you know, in personality, just as it does in all relationships. So if you find you're constantly getting into this tug of war with your kid or having these tough moments, sometimes that's a great time to bring in a coach or a therapist or a group to have some extra support to, you know, get some different, learn some different tools. And to help you deal with those moments so that they aren't as taxing. Yeah. This has been so helpful. And I am excited for folks to find out more about what you're doing to get a copy of the book. Will you talk about where they can go to find all the different things you're offering? Absolutely. So the book Parents Have Feelings 2, they can find that on our Instagram page is just at Parents Have Feelings 2. They can also go to the book website, ParentsHaveFeelings2.com, and that will direct anyone to the Penguin Random House website where they'll have a lot of different options about ways that they can go about if they're wanting to purchase the book, whether or not that's a, you know, hard copy or awesome copy. So, audio book or a digital copy for even their Kindle or their eReader. That's great. Thank you. Okay, Julie, this. Thank you so much. Absolutely. This conversation we're sharing with you is part of our What Kids Need Now series. So we'd love to end with asking you what is something you'd say you need right now in your own journey? I think what I need right now in my own journey is just, you know, maybe just support in nearing kind of in letting go, really. I mean, I don't have that much time. There's not much time. See, I'm talking. I don't have that much time as if I'm in this, you know, profound grief, right? I mean, even that slip, there's not much time before my child will go off to college and just the loss that comes with that. And I think that there's so much support when our kids are really little, you know, and then with teens, it seems like there's support when there's maybe problems, you know, bigger key problems. But not as much for, you know, preparing for that empty nest. And so I think that's something that I am holding right now in my own journey as a parent and really trying to do my own inner work so that I don't, you know, cause my child. To feel guilty for just growing up and doing what she's really meant to do right now. Yes. What wisdom for any parent in that space. I love hearing your answer to that. Julie, just love sharing conversation with you as I knew we would. Yes. What incredible wisdom you have offered to listeners today. Just thank you for being a part of this conversation. Yes. And just for your work that is impacting so many, we're so grateful for the difference you're making. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It was just such a deep honor to talk with you both. They have such a heartfelt conversation. Yeah. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer. Our management team at KCH. And we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always. Inspired by jet engine silences, the Dyson Hushjet Purify powerfully purifies the entire room, quietly. 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