Dan Quinn

You don't want it, you don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today, including the head coach, Dan Quinn, who will jump on in the next segment. I won't make you wait long for that. We'll get to that pretty quickly. Following the coach, Mark Zuckerman will be a guest from Nats Spring Training, where pitchers and catchers have reported. The show's presenting sponsor is always WindowNation, 866-90-Nation, windonation.com if you need new windows. This from Benjamin in Silver Spring. Benjamin writes, Kevin, I still don't understand Quinn going with two unproven coordinators in a year that seems like an important one for him. I understand getting a proven defensive coordinator would have been hard given the lack of talent, but it seems crazy that he went with Blau when Jaden Daniels is a quarterback anyone would have wanted to work with. Thanks for that, Benjamin. First of all, I recorded the interview with the coach a little earlier, and he describes going the route of two first-time coordinators in a very interesting way and in a way that I think many of you would describe it as well. You'll actually hear me, Benjamin, follow up with kind of the idea that many thought after a 5-12 season and heading into a season that seems like a big one for him that maybe the safer route would have been to go with two experienced coordinators. So you'll hear him answer that as well. But I promise you, Benjamin, that the Blau hire was different than the Durante Jones hire. Blau's been in their building for two years, and they and everybody else knew that this was going to happen with him. They knew he was going to get this chance sooner rather than later. Listen to David Blau talk about the opportunity that he's getting after just two seasons of being a position coach. This was from the Next Man Up podcast, which is one of the team's podcasts on their website, commanders.com. But listen to Blau describe this opportunity that came, you know, pretty quickly given his experience. Man, to me, it starts with DQ and just his kind of intentional vision for my growth. Since my first day here, man, he has just poured into my development. And really the reason I'm sitting in the chair is because he has probably seen for me bigger than I could even see for myself. And, you know, I'll keep just driving at home, but it's been every step of the way. It's opportunities to present in front of the team as the assistant quarterback coach was uncommon. It's opportunities to call plays and practice as the assistant quarterback coach, which is uncommon, but he has saw, you know, this vision for, for me for a long time. So it's, it's been an opportunity for me to prove to him, you know, it's like I'm counting on him counting on me, you know, like, you know, and, um, and so I'm, I'm able to kind of help bring his vision to life in that way. Blouse been part of the plan guys from the jump. Uh, you know, the opportunities that he just described that he got, uh, during these two years as an assistant quarterbacks coach, uh, is not typical, uh, for an assistant quarterbacks coach. And that's something that the head coach wanted. And by the way, the offensive coordinator, Cliff Kingsbury, participated in and encouraged. I think he saw a lot in Blau as well. And look, I think on the offensive side, when Quinn got hired, there was kind of a succession plan because there was an idea that Cliff wasn't going to be around for very long, maybe for a different reason, like he was going to get a head coaching job after a year or two years. But guys like Tavita Pritchard, but especially David Blau, have been OC and waiting in many ways. And you'll hear Quinn talk about why David Blau was kind of labeled as the next big thing, as this up-and-comer that wasn't going to have to wait long to get this opportunity. There was something else from Blau during this interview, again, on the Next Man Up podcast on the team's website that I wanted you to hear. It was a little bit more, I think, detailed in terms of what he envisions the offense looking like. Here's what he said. They're going to see a play style that is just recognizable across the NFL. That's one thing that I want to come to life. It's DQ's vision, the speed and violence that our offense is going to run off the football with, loading their stance and run. I think they're going to see a competitive and creative group that, you know, I like to use the phrase, we're going to make the same things look different and different things look the same. That can cause a little bit of stress for a defense. So I think there's some cornerstones and some benchmarks that we'll hit along the way. But I've got a vision in mind and our offensive staff is coming along beside me and us collectively are trying to build it exactly how we see it. So two things he said that I think are interesting to focus in on. When he said early in the answer, you know, when you turn on the tape, you're going to see a play style that is recognizable around the league. More on that in a moment. But when he said, make the same things look different and different things look the same. If that sounds familiar, it definitely is. That is something that Sean McVay, Ben Johnson, probably Kyle Shanahan. I know I've heard Sean say that before. Make the same things look different and different things look the same. And that is we're going to stretch outside zone handoff to Chris Rodriguez on one play, and then we're going to come back and it's going to look like the exact same outside zone. But Jaden this time is going play action or he's going bootleg, and we got a big explosive or we got a big play on the, what they call quarterback keeper, what we've often referred to as a bootleg, where Jaden's now going in the other direction and you got two or three receivers at different levels that are wide open. And if they're not, Jaden with his legs runs at 8, 9, 10 yards and gets out of bounds. Make the same things look different and different things look the same. That is marrying run to pass. and I think more so to play action pass and bootleg or quarterback keeper. And when he said a play style that is recognizable around the league, I think what he's really referring to is we're going to see more under center. We're going to see more marrying run to pass, more play action pass, something that Cliff didn't do. Washington was dead last in 25 in under center snaps, and Washington was 27th in the league in play-action pass attempts. This is what is, you know, what's more recognizable around the league, certainly after this year, is more under center. And this year, 12 of the 14 playoff teams finished in the top half of the league in under center snaps. Now, let me just point out, as I have before, last year, 24, three of the final four teams, Kansas City, Philadelphia, and yes, Washington. The other team was Buffalo in the AFC title game against Kansas City. But the Chiefs, the Eagles, and the Skins were three of the least under center snapped teams in the league. So there are lots of different ways to do it. But Quinn prefers this way and Blau with his background, with Ben Johnson, with Kevin O'Connell, et cetera. is going to deliver on that look, on that style of offense. I still think there will be elements of Cliff's offense without question. And, you know, David Blau was highly complimentary of Cliff Kingsbury during his presser yesterday. But, yeah, make the same things look different and different things look the same. That has been uttered by Shanahan, Tree Guys, and Ben Johnson. And we're going to see a lot of that. If you want to bet on sports, my recommendation is to do it at MyBookie. Go to MyBookie.com or MyBookie.ag. Use my promo code DCRELOAD, and MyBookie will give you a 50% cash bonus. Deposit $300, you'll get another $150 added to your account, $450, your balance to wager with. It's totally worth it for that. If you're betting basketball, March Madness is right around the corner. MyBookie is a great place to do it. Washington, by the way, 60-1 Super Bowl odds for next year. I have not yet seen the division odds, and I haven't seen win totals. We won't get win totals, I don't think, until after free agency or maybe after the draft for next year. But MyBookie is the place to bet on sports. MyBookie.com, MyBookie.ag, promo code DCRELOAD. By the way, Mike Tannenbaum, former general manager of the New York Jets, Miami Dolphins, on an ESPN.com story about next year, predicted two Washington things. Number one, that they would win the Super Bowl over Buffalo 45-42. It doesn't sound like a defense that improved very much. And he predicted that Jaden Daniels would be the MVP next year. Jaden Daniels MVP odds, I've seen them out in various places. They're like, you know, of the players that are listed, he's like 13th or 14th, somewhere around there. Last year, he was more like 6th or 7th in terms of his odds. So he's gone back, you know, 7 spots or so. Every year's different, man. Just stay healthy, and I think we'll have a good season from number 5. All right, let's get to Dan Quinn. 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You know, coming off and dealing with the aftermath of the season that you just went through, first of all, it's not been something that you've experienced much in your career as a head coach, but here you are following 5 and 12. How have you been absorbing it? How have you been dealing with it? How's it going in the wake of what happened in 2025? You know what? You learn. That's what you want to dig into first, Kevin. All right, this sucks. What did we learn from it? How are we going apply it and they're like, all right, full stop 2025. It's time to move forward now and apply the things that we need to. Change is difficult. It's difficult with coaches, difficult with players. You build bonds and relationships. And there's also new energy that comes in with new people and new ideas. So there's an element of excitement that goes into that when you are building an offense or a defense or you know a new scheme or you know different things that you attack each off season and so I enjoy the building process I enjoy connecting with the people I enjoy you know taking it to that next spot to the next level and that's especially true with players who are going from year one to year two taking it further and that type of leadership and development like all of that is this big off season that makes it and that's why like it makes it a lot of fun too So my next question requires a little bit of a preface, and the preface is this. I understand that injuries aren't something coaches and GMs like to talk about. I understand that you guys who are in the arena, in the fight, aren't in the business of using injuries as an excuse for anything. At the same time, as an observer of the league that you coach in for a little bit anyway, I know that injuries aren't necessarily an excuse. They are a reality in the sport, and they impact games, and they impact seasons. So I'm not asking you to make excuses, but the ask is this. Given how many players you lost, and more importantly, how many of your best players were lost for parts of, if not most of the season. How do you and Adam and everybody else out there go about the process of legitimately evaluating what happened this year? Yeah, I think it's a great way that you framed it also. And you may have heard me say it. It's not an excuse, but there is part of the reason. And the silver lining is that you found out about some other players that you may not have in the same way, playing time, et cetera. You found out, you know, what roles people can handle, what they can do. And so there's a lot that goes into it, Kev. But you're right to say that this was more certainly than I've been a part of during all my years in the NFL for one season. But you also adapt. You say, OK, why and how do you look at things differently? What needs to change? What needs to stay the same? And so those are all part of like a big overview of the program. and it allows you to dig deeper and to go further. And that's exactly what we're doing right now to make sure that, like, I would never put ourselves in this space again. Well, that leads to this. Like, is there a way to kind of look at it and say, was there a reason that we were the most injured team in the league? Was it training? Was it practice time? Was it something else? Or is it just one of those years that happens every once in a while to every team? You want to look at the types of injuries and how they happened. And did we have more soft tissue injuries than most? Or, you know, what types of injuries? So to have, you know, multiple ACLs, a broken leg, a broken ankle, those are unusual to have that type of volume. So, yeah, exactly. You wanted to dig in to say the what's and the why's and, you know, keep layering into that. Obviously, we looked at everything from practice time to training camp moments and all of that. And so for us to be at our best, we know like the practice is a very big piece of that. But we're still putting some of that together, Kevin, as we're going through the entire program. And you customize it by player and what the injuries were. And then you want to make sure you make the modifications to say, all right, like I said, we don't want to be in this space again. So let's not make sure it's just rinse and repeat in any way. What are the tweaks? What are the adjustments? things that must be done differently, better, all of those things to make sure we don't find ourselves into that space. You mentioned that I guess one of the silver linings is you got a chance to see a lot of players and a lot of players you weren't expecting to see because some of them weren't even on the roster. Was there a player that either wasn't on the roster or was on the roster, but you didn't have super high expectations for that ended up surprising you more than anybody else? Yeah, I think there's a few. And some of them are new players that you're wanting to see. You know, if Eckler doesn't get hurt, does, you know, Bill Krosky-Meritt have the same amount of reps? And you can kind of go into, you know, other spaces with people at, you know, for a receiver to see Jalen Lane, not just as a returner, but make an impact into those spaces. So we played a lot of people at receiver. We played a lot of people at defensive end, at corner. And so to see some of those guys into that spot, like Jake Martin was one that I thought came in as a first-year player here. All right, showed he could handle bigger parts of that role. Offensive line until the end of the season was one of our spots that we did stay healthy and have good spots. But all of those ones, they might be one-offs here and there. But to see guys step into roles, I thought Jeremy Reeves was one when we lost. Will Harris stepped in and certainly made some plays. We'd seen that on special teams easily. And so to see that carry over onto the defensive side, that was a big deal. And I would say Jordan McGee at linebacker was one that I thought showed the speed, the violence that we're looking for from the spot. So those are a few that come to mind when you ask that. You know, Jacob Martin, watching him this year, it struck me that this is a guy that you probably love in terms of the motor and the competitiveness and the kind of relentless way that he played all season. True. That's the first pillar of here of being relentless, competitive, and how you're going about things. And so he had captured that right from the beginning to say, OK, here's one that's ready to take the next base and go for it at the highest level. So I'm excited to see people make the jump from year one to year two. But I'm also excited to see some of the players make the jump from year two into year three. And some of those players, I think, as you're heading into 26, you're going to say, man, OK, Dan talked about that. We see that one coming. Players like Newton and McGee and Senna and some others like, OK, they got playing time. they got rolling, they're about to take on bigger roles. And those people going in from two to three or from one to two, I'm anticipating them making those big jumps that we expect. All right, let's talk about some of the changes, and let's start with offense. So why did you move on from Cliff Kingsbury? You know, change at play calling is difficult. But when we see we want to make sure, number one, what's the best option for the team of how we want to move forward. And Cliff's an excellent coach. And so sometimes even the right fit sometimes can be off track and off space. And so for him, it just felt like we needed to change moving forward, although difficult, just knowing, hey, this was the right space for the team. We were fortunate to have David here. He's been part of this pipeline that we're building with Jaden. He's a big part, obviously, of what we do and how we do it. And we just wanted to make sure that we set ourselves up in the very best ways to go do that. Simplifying it, is it what you described yesterday? Because you didn't speak to it in great detail. But you did say more under center, more balanced attack, more play action passes, that that's what you wanted and that's not necessarily what Cliff does. Is it as simple as saying you preferred that and that's not what you were getting? You're close. I would say I wanted to make sure that as we're going through it, we are looking to play it aggressive to have alignment of how we want to have a balanced attack. That really fits for the entire team. We were excited about Phil Krosky-Meritt and Chris Rodriguez and some others in the running game. We know that the play action coming off of under center is something that we can add to, but there'll be a lot of things that fans and people that watch us will look familiar as well. So it's a blend of things that we've done well and things that we're adding to the program. But yes, that will include being under center more, both in the run game and for the play action, run action passes that come off of that. we're fortunate with Jaden like he'd be a good player in any system and so allow that accuracy you know off of play action that'll be a big piece for us. Was there a moment Dan or was it gradual that you kind of came to feel that this is how you wanted to do it and how you wanted to see the offense called that it was something different than what was happening was it a moment or was it sort of a gradual build to coming to that conclusion? It was a gradual build to make sure of that because I didn't want to, you know, look at injuries, who was here, who wasn't here, how would we feature the guy? So it was more gradual than that. And those are the tough decisions. But that's, as a head coach, that's what we have to do and make sure the themes that we put in, the scheme that we have. We've got two really thoughtful teachers in Blau and Durante. And I'm looking forward for the players to feel that type of execution together. And so definitely gradual would have been our mindset on that. Why Blau and why Blau so quickly? Well, I think first being part of the system here and knowing Jaden and how we're doing things. And so if you've been around him, you'd understand, man, this guy is a true heavy hitter. So when he was done playing a few years ago, he came here and we took a tour around to say, How would we develop you? You could feel his football acumen right away. He had been playing, but really as a backup quarterback, he'd already been almost a half vision of a lens as an assistant. So to see him grow over the last two years, that's when it became really clear that although this trajectory was going to happen, It just so happened that he was able to speed up the process more quickly and get the chance to be around somebody every day for two years. You get a real sense and a vision for that, and David certainly has that. He's been a guy that we've all known his name, and that's unusual with a position coach when you're a fan or even somebody in the media. And the reason for that is he's kind of had this label as a real up-and-comer for the last few years and someone who many thought would be an OC much sooner rather than later. You've talked a little bit about it, but just explain what it is about him that made people feel that way without him having much experience. Yeah, I think from a coaching standpoint, you want to feel somebody's vision. And that's the teaching element. And the best teachers you've had through the years, those are the ones from a coaching standpoint. They can get that vision across, how to do it, what's it going to look like. And now when you can do that to an entire group, that's a really big deal. Because it's scheme and it's play style and it's attitude and it's the way that you attack. And so for those things, it really is part of how he thinks on a regular basis. and he known he was headed down this path even when he was a ballplayer knowing that coaching was going to be in his future but you right people would be around him to say man this guy is going to be a heavy hitter And we knew it was only going to be a matter of time before you know him becoming a play caller was going to be a reality So we're excited for him to do that here. Obviously, having the knowledge of our program, what we stand for over the last two years, Kevin, that's important. He's not going to start from the beginning on some of those relationships of what a player can and can't do. So there's some real advantages when you can build up from within and build that pipeline from within. And so we're really pumped about it. We really are. Given your relationship with Mike McDaniel, did you have a conversation with him about his availability? I talked to a lot of guys, Mike being one that was included into that. And when you go through a whole process with coaches and you know where you're going so offensively defensively uh I met with a lot of guys and sometimes I'll visit with friends like Mike on just their point of view or their opinion on something uh sometimes just check it in after going through a tough experience like he did in in Miami man just I want to check in on the man not the coach and so uh yeah I talk to he and other coaches um that I'm close with um often and sometimes it's football related other times not for someone who's had the success that you've had as a defensive head coach and a defensive coordinator what was the most frustrating or disappointing part of this past season defensively there's a lot but I would say the play style and the speed and violence that I love when we play with the most disappointing part was does not see that on the our consistent basis and so when you do that when you play with that type of energy and connection and joy and it's takeaways and great tackling and all that can bring and so that's at the top of the pile for us to to recapture that and put that into full effect at times you can feel like you're punching off the back foot and not you know hitting into the right spot and you can be just a little off course and you're not quite there. You're not same energy to the ball, the same pursuit to it. Some overthinking to go. So I'd say that would have been the thing that when you or our fans or myself or my family and friends watch us, they didn't play in that same type of energy that a Dan Quinn defense would have. That was probably the one that I know we're capable of more and the things that keep you up at night the most. Just a few more and I appreciate the time as always. When the season ended, I think a lot of us guessed, and I think you almost implied shortly after when you and Adam had the season-ending press conference, that somebody experienced as a defensive coordinator was probably the way to go. So why an inexperienced defensive coordinator in Durante Jones? Yeah, I'm looking forward to you feeling that answer because it's easy for me on the other side of the call to tell you. But when I sent somebody teaching and their acumen and the vision for it and it becomes so clear, then some of the guidelines that you may have had say, okay, this is the best option. I've been on my first call since maybe two and a half or three hours and it felt like we'd been on an hour. And so even yesterday as a presser went on for him, I'd heard from other people, I get it now. You know, and meaning the language, the alignment of how to coach, of what it would look like and feel like, it just connected easily. And so this one, although that may have been the best plan at that time to get started, once I went through a full process of meeting with a lot of people, then it became clear that Durante would have been the one here. And, you know, like sometimes those plans have to shift and adjust. And that's what coaching is, man. Like what you thought maybe at the start of it before visiting with anybody, then you meet somebody. So you know what, man, this dude right here is the one. He's the heavy hitter that we need. And this is how we, you know, can get him here. So you go for it. And I made a lot more success being bold in my decision making than, you know, worrying sitting back about not enough experience or play calling. And so I'd much rather be bold and aggressive on people that are hungry and willing to go take their shot. And so guys like Blau and Durante, man, they are in those spaces and those moments. And I absolutely love that. Interesting way that you just described the two hires. Hearing you describe the two hires as bold is the way I think many observers of the team and observers of you in particular would describe those two hires as well. You know, Dan, after a 5-12 season, regardless of the reasons for it, I personally think the reasons were obvious, and it was mostly about the players you didn't have playing for you this year. But that aside, in this day and age, there's going to be a feeling from the outside after a 5-12 season that next season is a big one for you. And because of that, I think a lot of people would have guessed he's going to go hire experienced, resume-ed play callers, you know, coordinators, especially in a year that's going to be big for him. Does it make sense to you that people would feel that way? I can see from the outside why that would be a narrative or a story. But I'd also, you know, like I love the support that we're going to put around these two men. And I'm on the coaches and talking about the players and how to feature that. And quite honestly, that's part of my wheelhouse, too, to make sure the leading in that way is on point and together. And so when you blend everybody's strengths and how you feature them onto a team, that's when the good stuff happens. And so I'm looking forward, very much looking forward to supporting these guys, you know, from a leadership position. I'm looking forward to them getting this vision out to the players. And when you do that together with great support from assistants, the play style right from the players, I think there'll be a lot for us to be proud of the way that we're going to attack it. All right, last one, because the next phase is free agency and doing stuff with your own players, potentially, who are free agents. But if I said that you get one wish granted from a personnel standpoint for a new player, not asking you to name the player, but what type of player, what position would that player play? That's a great question. Yeah, you want somebody that's going to make a significant impact on the team. And so the offensive side, that's generally somebody that's putting up points, that's scoring on the defensive side. That's somebody that can affect the QB or single on a receiver to eliminate this player. So those are the ones to me, if you're making the biggest impact, one that can put points on the board or the rusher or the corner that can take points off the board by the style and the attitude that we play. But whoever that player is, I want them to have swagger of a commander, intensity, toughness. And when people watch us play, they say, man, is that dude an absolute baller by the way he attacks it. And so those are things that I know win, and those would be the traits I was looking for if it was offense, somebody that's adding touchdowns and defensively, the rusher that affects the QB, knowing like you've got to go after the head of the snake, or a defensive player that can really guard people tight in the moment of truth, throws, third down, two minutes into those spaces. So those would be the three most important factors to make of heading into it. Well, not that you should care about what anybody on the outside thinks, but I think there are a lot of people that are nodding. Yes, yes, and yes. In that the conversations that they're having are conversations like, we got to get ourselves an impact pass rusher. We got to get more speed on offense. We need a playmaker who can score from anywhere on the field. And I think you added corner in there as well. So anyway, thanks for doing this as always. It's much appreciated. Wish you the best of luck in the offseason. Take care. Thanks, Dan. Yeah, man, it's awesome to be on with you. I love our fan base, what we stand for. And so, I mean, I can't wait to get rolling with everybody, free agency and the draft and throwing an offseason that we're really pumped about. It's just getting rolling for us. So let's go hit it hard. Yep. Good luck. Thanks again. Yeah, I'll talk to you soon, bud. Dan Quinn, everybody. Up next, Mark Zuckerman will jump on with us. Nats, pitchers, and catchers have reported. That's next after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, I've talked a lot about Chime over the last year. 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Yes, thank you, Kevin, for that. So I think as most people know now, the Nationals left Masson after, what, 21 seasons with them and decided to take their own TV rights to themselves. And that's, you know, their right and their ability to do that, and I think it's made best for them. Unfortunately, it led to me losing my job because that no longer covers the Nationals. But just this week on Monday, I decided to go out on my own and I launched NatsJournal.com. It's through the Substack platform, but you can access it just at NatsJournal.com. And it's essentially just a place where I am going to continue covering the team every day, just as I always have with written content. It links to the Nats Chat podcast that I've already been doing with Al Galdi and Tim Shovers. It's kind of one-stop shopping for written national coverage, which, let's be honest, there is very much a dearth of right now, given what happened at Mass. And sadly, what happened at the Washington Post. And so it is a subscription-based site. Not everything is behind a paywall, but the majority of the articles are behind it. That's how I'm going to sustain myself, hopefully, be able to be here at spring training and make road trips during the season. but it's a new adventure, but it's kind of similar to what I've always done, just in a new format and new form. Well, you've always been great at covering the team. I'm so glad you're going to continue to do it. I've always enjoyed our conversations, and I'm glad we're going to be able to have them moving forward with your new gig. I have to start with this because we haven't talked in a while, but just give me your reaction to the off-season trade of Mackenzie Gore. It was disappointing for a lot of people, obviously, and frustrating for a lot of people. The reaction that you saw from the fan base was, in a lot of ways, anger. And I get it. When you are trading away one of the key pieces from the Juan Soto trade, one of the key core young players that you got back in that once-in-a-generation trade, and you trading him away before this team ever even had any success on the field with him that a hard sell to your fan base to say hey yeah I know you been rebuilding through the last few years but guess what It going to take even longer now We're maybe even taking a step back before we finally take a step forward. So it was certainly not well-received among the fan base, but I do think there is logic behind it. What you have to understand here is Paul Triboney, the new president of baseball operations. His task is not to finish the rebuild that Mike Rizzo started. His task is to embark on his own rebuild because clearly the previous one didn't work the way it was supposed to. And so as much as he didn't want to necessarily give up a promising young pitcher, he's looking at this and saying this team is not going to be in a position to win in the next two years that we have him against the Gore under club control. I don't want to risk losing him to free agency and never getting anything out of him to help this team win. now's the time to move him, get more in return, and position this team potentially to have success in the longer run. It's his right to do that. It's probably the right thing for him to do that. It's just hard for fans who have already been through this rebuild, I think, to accept and understand that it's going to be a little while longer. This is not a continuation of the rebuild of Mike Rizzo. Yeah, I get what you're saying to a certain degree. Obviously, you've got a young general manager. He's not tied to the past. But man, you know, 2022, the Soto trade, that was the initiation of what felt like, you know, a rebuild that was supposed to be over by now. And so now it's part two of rebuilding. And I think that's just a really tough thing to sell. Yeah, no. And that's the problem. And, you know, if if Taboni and all these new guys had come in in 2022 and started this, everybody would be on board and say, yes, let's do it. We're ready to embark on this. The problem is that they came in in 2026 after we've already all experienced this. And, you know, that World Series in 2019 feels like such a distant memory now. But, you know, Paul has said it himself, and he's right. He feels for the fan base. He definitely understands what they've all gone through. But he can't really worry about what happened prior to him getting here. He was hired for a reason because whatever was here previously didn't work out for whatever reason. and so he's got to build this in the way that he believes is going to work. And let's be clear, it's a very different program that they've got going on here. Very young, a lot of new personnel in the front office, across the coaching staff, across the minor leagues. There's a lot of new technology that they've added to everything. Now, they haven't spent on major league players, not at this point yet, but they're really focused on revamping this entire organization and focusing on player development in a way that perhaps the previous administration didn't because they believe that that's the only way to have true sustained success. And you can't just have a team full of veterans and try to win a World Series. Yes, you can do that, but you can't sustain that as we saw with the previous version of the Nationals. I didn't ask an obvious follow-up question to the trade, and that is, how do you think the team did? How did Toboni do in his first big move? Well, the initial reports were all good on these guys, but I think four out of the five prospects they got in return are like single A or lower. So you're talking about guys who are going to be further away. I think the frustrating part, it's a lot easier to sell that if you said, okay, yes, we made this trade, and we've already got two of the prospects that are going to be on the team this year in prominent roles. And that's kind of what the photo trade was, because you had C.J. Abrams and McKenzie Gore pretty much right away, and then James Wood not too far behind that, you're not going to have that here. It's going to be several years until you see really the prominent players that they got back. But I think it's also a reminder, Mackenzie Gore, good young pitcher, sure, but he wasn't one photo, and he's not truly established at this point as a perennial all-star that's going to command a gigantic return in terms of prospects. There are some exciting parts of the lineup. I mean, we get to watch James Wood continue to develop, Dylan Cruz, etc. But let's just look at what you think we're going to see opening day when we get there a month and a half from now or whatever it is. What are the strengths of this team and where are they obviously weak? I do think this lineup has a chance to be pretty successful. And right away, not necessarily something we have to wait around for it to develop. James Wood is already a potential superstar. His first half last year was phenomenal. Now, he fell off a cliff somewhat in the second half. A lot of the guys did. C.J. Abrams did as well. And I do feel like some of that, once they fired Rizzo and Davey Martinez in July, and they went with the interim GM and interim manager, I think the mood for everyone just kind of dropped, and everybody understood, okay, we're just playing out the string. It's a lame duck season the rest of the way. and you could see it in their performance the rest of the way. That doesn't excuse it. And I do think one of the issues they had is that there weren't any veteran leaders in that clubhouse who could kind of keep everyone going and remind them, hey, this is 162-game season. You play all the way to the finish line no matter the record. So I'll be interested in the challenge of this new staff, how they keep these guys going for six full months. But if they can do that and get through to them, James Wood, C.J. Abrams, Dylan Cruz, who should be healthy and finally be able to take off, Daylon Lyle was such a huge, pleasant surprise for them the second half of last year. As well, Luis Garcia turned into a pretty good hitter. Brady House has potential at third base. I mean, they have pretty much at every position around the field, maybe except for first base, you have a young, promising player who could be a part of this thing for a long time. And so that's a great starting point for them. And I think by the end of the year, you may say, hey, this actually turned into a good, productive lineup. The concerns, I think, are more so on the pitching side. Even with Mackenzie Gore, this was a rotation that was very thin on experience. Without him, it's almost lacking entirely. I don't know who the opening day starter is. Maybe it's Cade Travalli, who's finally healthy, but has only made like 10 big league starts. You know, Jake Irvin, Josiah Gray finally coming back two years after he had his elbow surgery. The only free agent they find of any consequence was a guy named Foster Griffin, who was successful the last three years, but in Japan, not in the major leagues. We don't know how that's going to translate here. So there are a lot of questions about the pitching staff, and I do worry that we may be in for some eight, seven kind of marathon games that they may end up on the wrong side of. They're going to have to figure out something on that end to stay competitive. But I do think the lineup has the potential to actually look good and be something they can build around. I mean, I'm looking at some of the relievers. I mean, these are names that I'm not even familiar with. Tell me who's the closer, who's the first couple of relievers that we'll see in the early portion of the season. Honestly, these are names that are very unfamiliar. You're not wrong about that. The closer would have been Jose A. Ferrer, who we saw last year, really step up into that role after Kyle Finnegan was traded. What happened? Well, they traded him now to Seattle this winter for a young catcher named Harry Ford, who is a top 100 prospect and may wind up their catcher of the future, maybe even as soon as opening day. But you traded away a promising young closer when you don't have a bullpen with anybody else with any experience in that role. If the season started today, I'm guessing it's some combination of Clayton Beater and Cole Henry, who we saw in the second half last year. And they're promising they have, you know, they had their moments, but these are not household names. Beyond that, there's a lefty named P.J. Poulin who, you know, they picked up off waivers last summer. He looked decent. They've signed a bunch of guys on waiver claims and minor league deals, and you hope you can piece it together. We know that Mike Rizzo, really one of his Achilles heels was bullpen construction. And often he went out and tried to get veterans and spend a little bit of money on some of them, and in a lot of cases they didn't work out. So what you're seeing here is the complete opposite and saying, we're going to just find promising young arms, put them together, throw them to the wolves and hope that it works out. I have concerns about whether it's going to actually work out, but I think the feeling there was it's not worth spending money on a bullpen if you have a team that already looks like it may not be a contender to begin with. And that position is so volatile year to year, you don't really know what you're going to get. So throw a lot of arms out there and see which ones stick and which ones actually make it and prove themselves be worthy of sticking around. Who are the minor leaguers we should know about? Is Ford one of them? Yeah, although, like I said, he may be in the big leagues right at the start. He's going to compete with Caber Ruiz for the job. Now, we'll see if they think he's ready or if they'd have him at AAA, but we'll be seeing him in the big leagues at some point this year. He really was Seattle, like, one of their top prospects. Unfortunately, he was blocked behind a guy named Cal Raleigh, who had a bit of a breakout season last year. So the Nats could take advantage of that. I think the other names, last year's number one pick, Eli Willis, number one in the country. He's only 18, so he's not going to be up here this year. But the early returns, he's played a little bit at the end of the year in Fredericksburg at single A and had no problem there. It was really good. I'm guessing he'll start the year there, maybe move up to high A in Wilmington. He talked about wanting to reach the big leagues by age 20, so that's within two years. you know he's got to prove it at each level but the sense is that he is the real deal and that even though this group that's now in charge here wasn't in charge for the draft last year they all in their own scouting for their former teams viewed will it as the number one pick anyways and would have taken them themselves so i think that's an encouraging sign that they believe that there's two young pitchers travis sikor and harley susana who in a perfect world would have been ready and a big part of this. Susana part of that Soto trade. Susana was, yes. He was the last of the five big prospects. He's the big dude that they were really excited about. Yes, throws 102 with regularity. And unfortunately, they both suffered some pretty significant injuries last year. Sikora had Tommy Johnson. He's going to miss this whole year. He is here in Bigley Camp. Susana had a torn lap muscle. He's here. He's probably further along. We don't really know a timeline yet for him. He won't be ready opening day, and he still needs some minor league experience first, but we could see him maybe before the end of the year. But really for next year, those might be two names to watch because they're both flamethrowers who are potential number one starters in the big leagues. If you were to add them to Cade Cavalli, who's already here, we're talking down the road now, but those are the guys to keep an eye on. All right, lastly, tell me about the youngest skipper in the big leagues, our guy Blake Butera at 33 years old. What are you expecting in year one? So, I mean, you see him, you don't look at this guy and immediately think major league manager. You think he's like a utility infielder, like a 33-year-old middle infielder. Now, that said, he comes with a good resume given his age and lack of experience. I know he never played or managed above single A, but what he did do for the Tampa Bay Rays over the last decade as a minor league manager and as a farm director for them really kind of punched above his weight. And people in that organization were really upset when Paul Tavoni called to say they wanted to interview him because they thought he was a rising star in the industry. And so maybe the Nats got him before the rest of the world kind of figured that out. The challenge is when you're that young and that inexperienced, you've got to win over your group of major league players. And I know there aren't a lot of veterans here to begin with, but you've got to convince these guys that, yeah, I know I'm young. I know I never played anywhere close to this level, but you can trust me. I know what I'm talking about. and the early returns, and you know, it's only a few days, although most of these guys have been here for weeks now, and Blake's been down here for a month now. Pretty much across the board, everybody's been very impressed with him, and I think the way Taboni puts it is, within a couple of weeks, you forget about his age, and what you just come to the realization is that this guy knows what he's doing. Now, he's got to prove it, and he's got to prove not just in early spring training, but as the season goes on, and if they have a losing record like we all expect, that's where the real test is. Can he keep them together? Can he keep them going in the right direction and keep them motivated? I think that's what I'm most fascinated to see. But if this all works out, and it's a big if, but if it works out, they may have found this guy before the rest of the baseball world knew who he was and put him into this spot, and we'll see if he can kind of grow with the team. All right. We'll check back in with you before the season begins to get your guess on total number of wins. I'm not going to put you on the spot today. We've got a long way to go before the opener. I don't think it's going to start with an 8 I don't think it's going to start with an 8 I haven't even looked at the over-under I'm going to guess it's in the high 50s, low 60s somewhere around there at Mark Zuckerman on X that'll link you'll see the pinned tweet the link to where you can go get his content NatsJournal.com plus he's been doing the podcast with Galdi and with Tim Shovers the Nats Chat podcast. You can find that anywhere you get a podcast. Thank you for doing this. Best of luck. Thank you. I really appreciate it, Kevin. Mark Zuckerman, everybody. That'll do it for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.