#630 - Stephen Wilson Jr.

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I appreciate it. You had a pretty decent run at the CMAs this year. Yeah, it was a new artist of the year. Yes, I was nominated for new artists of the year, which blew my mind. And did you win a Ray Clay Strays one who? I got a top one. A very well-deserved man has had a big year and a big fan of his. And that's very happy for him. And I was really rooting for everybody. But myself, I didn't really think I even had a prayer's chance and hell of winning. But I was just like honestly being nominated was a huge win for me because I wasn't supposed to be there on paper. There's a lot of things that I contradict. So just being there meant a lot to be out there. It was really wild when I remember when they said my name and it didn't feel like that's somebody else. Oh, yeah. That's not me. That's okay. For sure. Well, do you think of yourself as country music? I do. Yeah, I'm a country boy. I grew up in the country. So I am very country just by culture. And I cannot help but write country songs. I grew up listening to country music and classic rock. I grew up in body shops and it was all classic rock and country music. Old school and 90s. And so that was kind of my pedigree, my listening pedigree. And then I grew up very country, very agrarian kind of hunting for our own food. And I ate a lot of squirrels growing up and rabbits. And yeah, we just grew up very country. It wasn't trendy at all either. It was just a means of survival. My dad was raising three kids on his own. And so he just went out and killed food. It was a lot cheaper than buying it at the grocery store. One slug, one deer slug. Could feed you for like three months. So that's the way he looked at it. Oh, there's a beautiful group right there. You guys kids. That's my dad and his three little ones. And that's me. That you on the bottom left there kind of middle. Yeah, in the middle. And who's that dime on his lap? I mean that respectfully. Oh, child. Who's that beautiful young lady? That's my little sister, Lacey J. Lacey J? Lacey J. Yeah, named after Lacey J. Dalton, another country singer. And yeah, she's his little girl. She is beautiful. And she's a beautiful person in general. She's really kept our whole family. Like me and my brother right there, where like Irish twins, we're only like a year and a few months apart. So we were we grew up beaten the hell out of each other. We were both boxers. My dad right there in this picture. He had just won, you know, the Golden Gloves for like the third or fourth time in a row. And you know, he was probably just running over to like, Owen Mills or somewhere at Walmart. Oh, yeah. Grabbing this picture real quick. Just so like, just that there's proof that we existed and proof that he did this. And I always find it wild that he had time to even. Fix this out. Snap that picture. Amidst his life. It was so crazy at the time. For a dad to put that together. That didn't say, you know, that wasn't really the dad world. So he was a single dad raising you guys. Yeah, he was driving a bus in the morning and then working at a body shop and training to be a boxer. He was wanting to be a pro boxer, but a lot of things, you know, he had to really kind of focus on being a dad and kind of had to put his boxing career. Because he really had a very promising career. He did. And so a lot of my dreams, I live kind of, you know, for him and myself. But because he put a lot of his dreams on the back burner to raise me. Like, and he also created me. So like he kind of had to do that. Right. You know, like, so, but, you know, a lot of people don't take that responsibility. And when I see that picture, I have like, like you said, a memory. Like he either got the day, he's got great dimples or somebody called him with two good. No, yeah, he's got great dimples. He knows how to get the same ones. And, but yeah, I see that guy right there. And about a year from that picture, he would have been curling my little sister's hair and getting her ready for kindergarten. And even though his eyes were swollen shut from sparring the night before, I have like distinct memories of him, like getting her ready for school. And being like a dad to a very young little girl, like, you know, crimping her hair and curling it. And, you know, being a dad, being a dad also doing feminine things, like because there was no one to do the feminine thing. So he was like, oh, I got to be a dad. And he was really good. And he knew how to do the dude. The dad dude part, like he made my brother boxing every night. And we were hunting and fishing and doing all the dude things. But he also had to be a dad to a little girl that was like the light of his life. Wow. That was like quite the responsibility. I look back on that. I have like, like I said, just such a distinct memory of him curling her hair, like while morning cartoons are playing right before we got on the school bus. And he was quite the dude. What was his name? Steven Wilson. Oh, he was senior. Yes. He just never know. Sonon, they'll throw a junior on somebody just because they don't know what's going on. Yeah, I know. Or they're just NASCAR fans, they'll tack it onto the back of their kids. And I can pick that like a donkey tail. They just put it on there. I can't do you. Like, yeah, we'll pin the tail on this child, you know. I'm very much a junior. It's very much a thing in boxing, especially. Like, you know, I joke around that, you know, my, you know, my dad, you know, he was, he was named after a martyr in the Bible, like my grandmother named him after a guy that was, had rocks thrown at him until he died in the Bible. Steven with a pH, by the way, and which makes a lot of sense, because I'm pretty sure my dad was stoned when I was born. Well, he's the joke. And the pH level of his brain was probably weed, probably. And it might have been plus 40 then. It depends on if he was some serious gas or not. He did like, perhaps the, oh, you had to back the country cabbage. The story of Steven from the Bible. Steven, the first Christian martyr, of the first Christian martyr was stoned to death outside Jerusalem for his faith. I just cried in Acts 7 of the Bible. His executioners, including a young soul through rocks at him, after he testified about Jesus. Yep. Why did Saul not want him to test him? Did he not believe him? Or did he just not want him sharing the truth? Well, Saul at the time, this is pre-Paul. Because Saul turned into Paul once he saw Christ, like the spirit of Christ appeared before him. And that's when he became Paul. But at that point, Saul was very much a, like, a figure of the Jewish religion. Like he was a very high ranking. Jewish official. So like, he was kind of, you know, like a high ranking individual. And so he was really, in his mind at that time, probably just doing his job. Right. Not really knowing why he was doing it. But then he, you know, he had very much, I come to Jesus moment. No pun intended. Yeah. That's when he became Paul. And he wrote literally probably two-thirds of the, the New Testament. Or at least a lot of it. He had this. I love it at least. This says here, it says, and we use perplexity AI. And it says before his conversion, Saul was a zealous, ferro- ferrociic Jew. He's a ferroci. Ferroci was a zealous ferroci who believed followers of Jesus were dangerous heretics. So from his perspective, Steven's preaching against their rejection of Jesus and his criticism of their misuse of the temple was blasphemous and reserved death under the understanding of the law. That zeal led him to participate by giving approval and overseeing the execution which he later remembered with Deep Sorrow when he became the Apostle Paul. Wow. Yeah. God, dude. That's, that mean, that's got to be a lot to carry. Because if Steven was the first Christian martyr and you had him stoned because your faith wasn't there yet and then to look back through a different perspective, not much longer after that. For him to be like, oh, now I'm preaching the same gospel without rocks being thrown at me. And now, that's a, that has to be a quite the thing to come to terms with. And I think that's what motivated him to write, you know, so many pistols of the New Testament and became such a huge figure of the New Testament. There's a lot of books that they believe are written by Paul. Like the book of Hebrews, there's like no author, but they believe even he wrote like books that nobody has any author to like, they just, they can identify his style of writing and be like, it had to be. Wow. So, yeah. People of your style are writing, man. Just speaking of that, I grew up very religious. That's why I talk about grip. And I've been a costal Nazarene kind of church, a lot of Holy Rowan. And I read a lot of the Bible. Yeah, I just started going to a Bible study this the first time I've ever been to a Bible study in my life. And so, it's been interesting to start to just learn about different characters from the Bible and just different stories and stuff. So, yeah, I'm just glad that we even got to talk about that. And yeah, and that's how your father was named from Steven. I didn't know that story now or remember it. Yeah. So, that's pretty cool. What was that? Yeah, the church you went to, because you're from the Midwest. You're from Indiana? Yeah, I'm from where I'm from Southern Indiana. Kentucky, and I they call that area, just north of Louisville, Kentucky. Just close to where Trevins from. Okay. That's where I would say that's where the Midwest and the South kind of chestbump or shake hands. It is literally a collision of two cultures. So, people have Southern accents and watching Ascar, but they also put noodles in their chili, which is a very Midwestern thing. So, yeah, there it is. Jackson County, Indiana right there in this southern part. Oh, yeah. The Midwest, they'll start up a protein in a second. They don't give it back. They'll put a starch right in the middle of a protein. That's how they are there. They love that. I mean, I was long winners. Yes. It's cold. You need them starches. Oh, yeah, I would grow. I mean, I would go, we used to go to the AC. It was an apostolic Christian church with my grandparents. And some of their neighbors. And it was in Illinois, like in pretty much Southern Illinois. And that was just part of the culture. Like, people would eat their dessert at the beginning of dinner sometimes. So, they made sure they got their dessert in. Like, it was just some of the culture. Yeah, you don't want to miss that. I get too full. I'm getting too excited on mashed potatoes. And they're like, damn, I ain't got nothing. It was almost a shame. If you couldn't make, if you didn't have space available in your body, for a beautiful dessert somebody had made, you almost felt a bit of shame in a way. Yeah. You shouldn't be. I think how much work was put into that cobbler. Compared to those mashed potatoes, like you ate the like the easiest stuff. Oh, and sometimes you'd have somebody, you know, you'd have such skilled labor in that. Or you'd have a real cobbler making the cobbler. You'd have a damn shoelace going through a, going through a peach, you know? You'd be in there. There's a bootless cobbler. You'd find, yeah. You'd find half a soul. And you know, you'd be like, oh, is this, is this crossed or is this a, you know, part of an 11 and a half? Yeah, what is this cobbler? Solus? Like, nope. Not so much. He's got real, real heels in the corner. You know, it was just, but there was so much value. I remember in my grandmother's town, on cooking and on having people over from meals. Just that Midwestern culture, you know, on hard work. Emory Legend was a big part of it. You know, even their neighbors, if my grandparents couldn't take us to church, their neighbors would offer, will take them to church, you know? And we go and, um, and just get to see what some of the different churches were like. And that was one of the bigger religions in the area. It was Apostolic Christian over there. You see any exorcisms or any speaking intungs or movements of the spirit? Let me think. No, they had good donuts. They braided their hay or the women did like one big braid. They didn't show a lot, you know, it was very kind of covered up with some of the female culture. They braid their donuts. They did have those one. What is that one that's? I don't know. It's, it's, I don't know what it's called. I don't love it. I don't either. Yeah. It's too much bread. And I don't think you're spilling it. You think there is in your kid. It's very deceiving. Twisted donut. No, there's a word for it. And it's, what is there? Cruller was one that I loved. But I don't think this was a Cruller. Well, Cruller often made from show, pastry, french Cruller, or Yusto with the distinctive twisted shape. Well, maybe it was a Cruller. Yeah. Maybe it was, but yeah. It looked good as a kid, but it was, it was just, yeah, it was always like, oh, I want that. And then you would eat it. You're like, man, it's a trash. Yeah, I should have went with that, but very in-creme. Yeah, or I should have went with the one with the frosting on it, you know. But we had a beautiful time. Yeah, I didn't meet any, there was no say-oncery, really. I do remember there was a mentally handicapped fellow who said he could drive and he was a driver's ad instructor. And he wasn't. He was just, you know, and some people believe he was a man of handicapped, some people were like, he's possessed by the devil. And I'm like, we's not possessed by like a devil who just, you know, is sitting around and is picking his nose and just, you know, he was just a little bit off this dude named Brandon. And he was awesome, actually. He was kind of this special guy between an adult and a kid and he never left that zone. You know, so there was something kind of very approachable to him about kids because he was bigger than us, but he was just like us. And he, he taught me how to, he said he could drive and he drove right into a snowbank and the police came and everything. But it was exciting though. He was a liar. Yeah, he was a lot of fun. It was a good place for for him to be a church. He was a big fan. I think it was a tough time for everybody. That's, I mean, I gotta say, I saw quite a few demon possessed Brandon's where I grew up. I saw a lot of Brandon's get demons cast out of them. Really? So you would see that at your church? Yeah. And what was that kind of like? Because some place that's a part of a culture. And I believe that I believe in that type of stuff. Do you believe in it? I do. You know, I have a, you know, that I've tried to deconstruct a lot of that through because I have a science background. I've had to really try to understand a lot of that and understand what is real and what is not. There was a lot of it that was 100% real and there was a lot of it that was 100% not. And I believe there's theatrics, but I also believe, you know, God is everywhere. And I believe God did show up in those places just like God will show up in any place. But yeah, I did see a lot of, you know, grown-ass drywall dudes get like demons cast out of them before launch. And I'd be like sitting there with half a pop tart in my stomach watching this dude literally like throwing dudes around and like exhibiting some superhuman strength. Oh, they're popping the tart right out of that dude. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I see original pop tart dude is a damn extra stress. Yeah, he just created the original pop tart. That's a very favorite pop tart. It's from a demon exorcism. That's why it's red. Yeah, you just know they could have gone with a lot darker flavors. But they're like, let's make this available to shoot. Let's do the pop tart and exorcism. Shit, I'm there. Dude, I'm sitting on your lap. Speaking in tongues, I actually went, you know, in our town, like an evangelist could like show up to your church and like a traveling evangelist and be like, we're having revival here this week. Oh, yeah. Literally the church would shut down and be like, we're having revival, y'all. This is what we're doing in the whole week would be a revival just because of this dude showed up and said, God told me to have a revival here. And they would have a huge like big tent revival. Oh, way. Absolutely. And it's always been my dream to be a part of something like that. No, I think a faith was my favorite move to throw out. Do that movie. Show me your nose about it. It's one of the greatest movies ever made. I literally changed my mind. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you know about that movie. Like very few people have been able to talk to about that movie. Because it has one of the most profound impacts on me. Really? As a kid, just because of how I grew up and the music business and seeing performance and theatrics and, you know, where is God and where isn't God. And that movie is just brilliantly done. But I remember I went up this dude showed up and he said, tonight everybody's getting slain in the spirit. You come up, you get in slain. And I don't know if you know what slain means. Like you stand up there and the dude hits you and you fall down and you just out for however long. And everybody lined up. And I was like, I'm getting slain tonight. I would never been slain. That's that freaking religious percussette right there. Yeah, I would wanted it bad. And he's just knocking people over left and right. Boom, boom, boom. I'd seen him go down. It's like he's coming to me. No way. He got to me. And he started speaking in tongues. And I remember he tapped me right in the forehead. Boom. Like that. I was like, oh, that was, that was kind of hard. And I was like training for the Golden Gloves at that time. So I was like, a little bit like, what's up? Like he just like hit me right in the forehead with his fingers. Yeah. And then he started, you know, it didn't work. Like it didn't take. And so he did it again, even harder. And I was like kind of like mad about it at that point. Because it actually kind of hurt. I was like, this dude trying to knock me out. Yeah. Or like he's trying to slay me in the spirit. And anyway, he just, yeah, let's look at the judges cards. And I'm just like getting hit in the forehead by him. And then he just moved on. It was one of the most heartbreaking things. He went to the next guy and knocked him out. Next guy down down. Were you being defiant, do you think? I don't know. I thought like, man, I guess I don't believe. Uh, am I, did I like snap out of it? Was I, you know, was I not in the moment? I didn't really know what to think. Because I was like a 19 year old kid just trying to feel God and try to get closer to God. And everybody seemed to be doing that. And what was wild is like he knocked everybody up. And there was all these bodies all over the floor. People like putting modesty cloths all over him and stuff. And they're just out there asleep. So I had to like walk all over all these bodies to get back to my. You're like, oh, yeah, too much. It's kind of embarrassing. It's almost the walk of shame. It was, it was the most shameful walk I've ever taken at church. I guess I'm not. I guess I'm not. And what really made me laugh at least kind of helped break me out of that. I'm missing the spirit. Yes. I remember thinking like, what if I step on this? Because everybody had their hands out just kind of laid down before. What if I step on someone's hand? Well, like snap them out of it and then be like, ah, and then they'll go back in or they'd be out. Like, oh, you stepped on my hand and now I'm no longer slaying. I was like, how did, or the like, Stephen the center, you know, old Stephen Wilson Jr. who can't even get the dark arts exercise out of him. Is every are waking up people who are doing well. Breaking fingers with his, with his stilto boots. Shamefully walking back to his pee. I don't know what about the walk of shame at church. What is a modesty cloth? Well, like sometimes a lady would get slain and she's wearing a skirt. You know, it's a pen and costal church and they they cover and make sure like, you know, that's a lot of skirt. Do we call them skirtons? Because they were so long, you know, and some of them would be actual curtains that they had taken off of a window. So some of them you'd even see like that stick. You know the stick that's on the edge of a curtain that you can like, if you turn it, it'll go up. Some of you have those. Yeah. You're just sitting over there, but they're going to feature all string. Yeah, if you're kind of getting a pair, you got to spin that thing for a whole lot of times underneath. Yeah. Yeah, they got blind. Those vertical blinds. They're there. Yeah, I can cure you from blindness. That's pretty funny, dude. Thinking about something like that. We're thinking about something that's funny together with somebody is something that's awesome, dude. Yeah, it was like it helped me get through it like that because like you said, there was a shamefulness to it, but it actually was kind of funny. So they thought that modesty blanket on them. There's a modesty cloth. That's good for that. Good for that, that at least, yeah, because there's some guys, some lurkers that would just be up there. Yeah, you never know. And like I said, those churches, nothing you didn't even show below the knee. So if your skirt when it started to show some knee, they better get a cloth over that. Yeah. You see in that knee cap. Oh, yeah, boy. There was a lot of remember being young and just, God, I was kind of like a, I guess like a little bit of a peeping tom or whatever. I was like visually stimulated. I called it and had a step stool. But I remember for Christmas when you're, I went at a ladder. My one's like, what do you want a ladder for? Like why do you want this little ladder? And I wanted to go. I'd go watch people and just watch in their houses. And I wasn't always looking for perverse stuff. I was just looking. I liked watching people live, right? Like I think I hated being at our house. It was like, it was like, uh, it wasn't fun. It was just painful kind of a lot. And it was like always like aggressive and defensive. Like the second you were around, you had to be defensive. And so I would go watch as other people live. Like watch somebody just be, you know, or just watch some dads sit there in a chair. Some mom make something or some kid just, you know, like users like the living room or something. I wouldn't get in real weird, but, but I love that kind of stuff, man. I love just kind of absorbing how other people operated. Yeah. That kind of stuff was interesting. You're an OG people watcher. Yeah, I was a bit of a, yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, if you get your ladder together, you know, yeah, but get half a pop tartanian, get over there and just see what the... I find comedians are and songwriters in general are just like, they're people watchers and then they watch so much people that they end up, these narratives start to show up. And so you were probably just harnessing your skills for what was to come. Yeah, I think sometimes, yeah, you look back in your life and you're like, oh, so much of that was to, uh, was ammo to provide something. Yeah. You already know it, but you should be reminded that prize picks as America's number one sports picks app. The app is really easy to use to create a player lineup. All you have to do is pick more or less on a few player stats. That's it. Prize picks will give you $50 in the lineups when you play your first $5 lineup. Winner lose, you get $50 bucks in lineups. Use promo code Theo when you download the app and sign up today. And on top of making lineups, you can now also pick teams on prize picks. 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And then you have to make another choice then as to what do I do here. But that by giving birth to a son by having an offspring, you are creating something that can go the next leg almost like it's a one of those races where they pass the baton. What does that mean? I think a baton race. Yeah, a baton race. And yeah, so yeah, it's not hard. I'm not sure he may not be called that and maybe something way more complex. Oh, baton or relay race. Baton race, relay race. But it's like, this is as far as I can get. And let me put this into you. But then it's interesting as the next runner as the next generation is, what do I, like how much do I owe to this previous generation to carry on their dream? Do I owe anything? You know, what does it mean to be a son? Like all those things kind of were popping in my head as you were saying that. A generational relay race is not something I've put, to thought regarding all that but that is very, very accurate observation there. Because when you see a relay race, like the first runner or whatever, the runner before you, the runners before you dictate how fast you're going to run and they dictate your position in the race. Yeah. So if they're running with everything they got, well, then you're only doing a disservice to their effort by not running with everything you got. Right. And so yeah, that baton becomes something bigger than just this thing you're holding in your hand. It's like the sum of all their efforts. Yeah. And, you know, yeah, I think we used to hear a lot more. I think when families, and this is hypothetical, but when families seemed closer and we needed more entertainment from our fathers and forefathers, and we got lower passed down and family history when there was more storytelling. When you couldn't get as much storytelling from like phones and television and stuff as we can in the past, regenerations, but when it came from like those, the predecessors of ours and our forefathers and mothers, that kind of stuff, it like beat inside of us like a drum, you know. Yeah. What kind of did you feel a pressure like, and did something your father passed away? Yeah, he passed away seven years ago at the age of 59. And it happened. Yeah, he was very young and he was a sudden thing and it was very sick. Yeah, well, he had like this pulmonary fibrosis thing that was starting, but he ended up dying of a pulmonary embolism like a blood clot in his lungs. And so, yeah, it was a very sudden thing that I don't think anybody really expected. And he was living in Indiana. He was living in southern Indiana and he was, you know, he was doing quite well. And like, you know, everything kind of changed in about six months. And then he, you know, suddenly this, this embolism showed up and I tried to get there because he, it was his, his body was like shutting down. I know. I mean, so an embolism, can you bring it up just so I know, Trevin, sorry to interrupt you, Steven. No, I don't. I just like, sometimes I, I've let information fly and I don't know what it is. An embolism, a pulmonary embolism is a blood clot that travels to and blocks an artery in the lungs, cutting off normal blood flow, oxygen exchange and creating a potentially life-threatening emergency. So had this been happening for a while and then it got bad? Yeah. And so he'd had some, obviously some things going on that he never knew was happening. And then, yeah, it got to that life-threatening emergency point. And then there is a point where they can only do so much. And, you know, he was a bit of a cowboy and, you know, those kind of classic dudes that don't want to go to the doctor and all tough it out kind of thing. I'm sure there was a lot of that mentality going into it. Also, there was poor healthcare, you know, that's, he was a victim of the American healthcare system too in that regard. I won't get into all that. But, um, but yeah, like that was, that was a big part of it. I'm talking about that a lot over the years. It's a nightmare and the stress they put people through trying to deal with their own taking care of themselves. It's like, yeah, it's a nightmare. Especially at his age at 59, he was starting to feel like, oh, you're just like a forgotten human. They don't, you know, like, you know, they don't really want to take care of you. They want to do everything but that, like, you got to fight tooth and nail to take care of yourself in that, at least where he was at that time. And, uh, yeah, I got a really, um, panic to call from my sister that morning. Said you need to get here like now. Like dad is very sick and we don't know what's happening. And they rushed him to the emergency room. Um, I jumped in my car and sped up there and I said goodbye to him in the middle of Kentucky on the side of I 65 on an iPhone eight. On the side of a highway. And, um, that was over to make it quieter. Yeah. And just so I didn't lose signal, I was so worried that, because, you know, the middle of Kentucky is the middle nowhere. Like, what if I dropped the call? Like, yeah. And, um, you know, there was, so I just pulled over just, I mean, it was insane. I just, the sound of like, semi is flying by me, like, 90 miles an hour. But literally being in a, I felt like I was in a bubble. Like, not like the world was, like, the world stopped around me in that little car. Like, a semi could have taken the side of that car off. I wouldn't even had known it or, you know, I would have just, I was in a state of absolute shock and, and horrors of very traumatizing experience. But, and you weren't a FaceTime call? No, I was just on a video, or a normal phone call. Was he able to speak to you? He was and he, uh, did he know that it could be like his last moment? He knew he was bothering you by asking this? No, I talk about it a lot on stage. I kind of relive it every night. And, um, that's been a challenge for me, like mentally, kind of, but it's been, but it's also been like the beautiful part of unpacking trauma and grief, because, you know, I'm not, like our music, like really, um, it finds the grieving. And I think it's, it's important for me to grieve as well. Um, like, I, I, I go through grief every night. Yeah. But, you know, um, he was such a gangster in that moment. He knew he had maybe 90 seconds left on his earth. He knew he was going, not just going, but going fast. He even told me he's like, I'm, I'm going, Steven and, um, sorry. But yeah, he was, uh, he was so calm about it. He said, everything's going to be okay. Oh, that was his first thing. He said, like such a dad thing to say. And, um, he said, write a good song for me, Steven. He said, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you four times. And he wanted you to know for sure. Yeah. Like he wanted there to be no doubt. And, uh, so I say it more than once all the time now, because I, I, from that experience, I kind of realized that people are counting. And, uh, I, I was counting. And, um, and it was weird. Like on that last, I love you. It's almost like his voice got quieter. Like he was literally being pulled. Like God was snatching him from the universe. And that last, I love you. And he was gone 30 seconds later. And that was it. I was the last person he spoke to. And, um, I'm really grateful that I got to speak to him. And in that moment in that car, uh, I, I was so angry at God. I was so angry at him, even my dad. I was like, how dare you die on me like this? Like that's, we wasn't supposed to happen. Like none of it was supposed to happen. Like that. Like I was under the impression he was invincible. First of all, and he was just so young and he was just such a, you know, just such a lively, such a bright light. So it just, it didn't seem possible. And then even to people in my hometown, they were in disbelief when he died. Like it was like, because his, his life force was so big that like people were in denial. Like that's impossible. There's no way he could be dead. Like, and I was like, no, he really is. And it was a, a tough thing to really come to terms with. But with any great reaction or any, like chemical reaction, there is a catalyst. I have to say everything, the reason I'm here and the reason I'm anywhere right now is because of that conversation. It was, you know, you have a product and a reactant and then there's a catalyst. And, and that, that conversation is what catalyzed my whole career. Really? And, yeah. That, that, right, right, a good song for me, Steven. Oh, it was. I was like a lifetime's worth of jet fuel for me to charge across the galaxy and, and do everything I could to try and keep him alive, to try and just tell the world about him that, you know, carry out his wish. Yeah, I mean, what, and what I found out is like, like, carrying out his wish and, um, and keeping him alive was keeping so many other people that, that other folks have lost, other humans have lost alive. You know, he was resurrecting other people at the same time. And these people were coming to shows with this, um, with his bounty of love that had no place to go. And that's what grief is, essentially. And, and I gave them, you know, you know, the, these songs have given them up a home for at least maybe three and a half for four minutes. And, oh, yeah. And that's been, um, that's really been the charge of all of this. That's been, um, the mission statement is, um, you know, at the very beginning, it was just keep that alive, keep him alive at all costs. And, you know, like, kind of a, a psychotic denial for the first couple of years that he was even gone. I was like, no, he's, he's still around. And I, and a lot of times I felt them on my shoulders like a little kid who's really weird. It was like this weird reversal of roles. And, uh, well, now that he's free, he kind of could do as he wants, you know, he could be on your shoulders. Yeah, he would show up like that. And the reason why I play this song, stand by me, it's literally, I have two weeks after he died. I was scheduled to play this songwriter festival on Deadwoods out the Coda. And it's, you know, it's in the black hills and it's a very spiritually charged area. Just in general. Yeah, for sure it is. And the guy that runs us, you don't have to play any music. I know you're in a bad, bad spot. I hadn't slept in a week. And, uh, he's like, just come here and, you know, see what happens, you know, just be around people like, there's nothing below for you here. And, um, we know you've gone through it. And at the end of the festival, they asked, you know, all the writers and stuff there. Um, if you wanted to play a cover, what's your favorite cover that you love? And they did this big finale. Um, I'd been, for some reason, for about a year, prior to my dad's death, I'd been singing this song, Stand By Me in my living room, the exact way I play it now. It just popped in your head to come. It just kind of came in here. Yeah. And like, for some reason, I was, like, that song has haunted me my whole life because of the movie, Stand By Me. Oh, that sure. Yeah, that's a big part of a lot of people's, that movie was huge and people's lives for so many little moments. Yeah, like I very much saw myself in the, the kid on the left, the Gordy Ledge Chants. No, um, oh, um, was named Will Wheaton. Like the writer, the writer that was trying to find a voice, the nerdy, little writer kid on the left. Yeah. And, um, that song, like, was threaded so brilliantly throughout that film, and it's obviously the title, but, um, because of that movie, which is also a Stephen King story, that movie is based off of Stephen King novella called The Body. So, you know, it was obviously a very haunting and dark theme, but, you know, that song really haunted me because of that movie. And, um, I just started playing it. I was like, trying to, I don't know, kind of deconstruct it, try to process it in a different way. And, um, when my dad died, fast forward to deadwood, all I could play was stand by me. Wow. And, um, I started playing it. And, I'd really never played it for anybody like that. And, the whole place, like, just went crazy. Like, and at that point, I was not an artist. I, I'd just quit my job as a scientist. I'd just, I've been a published writer for maybe two years at that point, just trying to get other artists to sing my songs. And, I never really saw myself as an artist, even though my dad did, like, he would always be like, why don't you just sing these songs? You sound great singing them, but I would always argue with him. Like, no, I don't do that. I write them someone else sings them. But, when I went up there to sing stand by me, I swear to God, he was like, on my shoulders, like a little kid. And, I got so addicted to that feeling again. Oh, yeah. Because he, I mean, he was there. He showed up. And, I truly believe he showed up at Bridgestone at the CMAs. Like, he did. He showed up that night. And, uh, all I bet he was so proud of you. Do you feel like he's proud of you? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. He was so proud of me before he died, before any of this happened. And, um, I think, yeah, he, yeah, he would be very proud. Um, I've been trying to make him proud my whole life. But, what did he, what did he say? Right? If someone for me or make us, what did he say? Sorry. I'm not going to leak it over here. No, I'm not going to leak it all the time. I, yeah, dude, I'll listen to stuff that makes me cry all the time because I think I'm just full of tears and I got to get these bitches out. Even though I'm dehydrated half the time. So, I'm like, I don't even know what's going on here, dude. No, it's good for you. Like, I, when my dad died, I swear all I did was cry for two years. I, I guess all I did. And, yeah, he let it get it out. If you have, if you can find the tears, find them like right now, I, I can't find them. Yeah. I mean, even though I, I get emotional, don't get me wrong. But yeah, sometimes you have tears and sometimes you don't. It's like almost like seasons, you know, it's almost like an ocean. Sometimes it comes up on the shore and sometimes it's out to sea, you know, even though it's, you know, it lives right. It's a time. Yeah. So, it's like, um, and especially I think people that have had like a lot of things with their life that have happened that haven't been processed. Um, you know, it takes a long time and I think I've gotten grateful in my life over, over, over time where there, if I find something that helps me process, I'll sit there and process it. My brother says a lot of times he's like, yeah, getting rid of grief and like, like, like trauma, like that old stuff and people use trauma as a buzzword. But getting rid of grief and stuff from the past, he's like, it's like taking pennies out of a bathtub one at a time. He's like, you know, it just, it takes a long time and it's slow and it's just kind of arduous. Work. But, uh, but you just be grateful that it can kind of happen over time. Um, what he said, make a good song for me. Write a good song. Write a good song for me. Because he knew that's what I was, that's all I could think about. And that's the top man. That's the baton. Yeah, he used to come to my, like all my shows, when I say shows, like playing for seven people at writers' round. Or like, and he came to the Bluebird Cafe. I remember like, had, had his, you remember when they had those giant phones? They were like the size of laptops. You know, oh, the sea mobile side. Yeah. Yeah, baby, the bitches was beautiful. Yeah, he had one of those bad boys and he would just hold it up and record the whole show. At the least it's driving me crazy. Oh, dude, there's nothing crazy here. They're watching like a boomer kind of like record something, or even just somebody from a generation of other just, we went to the USC fight the other day and some guy was recorded every single fight. I'm like, he had a front row seat and he was recording and there was a TV right next to him playing the fights. I'm like, you can just go home and watch. Like, I just didn't understand what was going on. But the fact that he was there and that he cared so much about it and that he loved watching you do it. Yeah, I, um, there was this one song that's on the record called I'm a Song. Oh, yeah. And he watched me play that for the first time at Bluebird Cafe. I'd just written it like that week. Right over here. Yeah, I'll go. Yeah, and he had his giant, he'd giant phone. I'll never forget. And I was like, Dad, please put your phone down. But he recorded that whole song and then he called me like a week later, kept talking about that song and about a month before he dies, Father's Day weekend, I came up to see him and we went to a tractor pool and then we went home and watched some fights. And he goes, Hey, Steven, you know, that song you played the Bluebird like a month ago? It's called I'm a song. And I was like, well, how do you even know that? Like I, you know, because I was in that point of like writing, you know, 200 songs a year. I was writing, you know, 10 songs a week. So like a month ago, like I'm a song was like 50 songs ago. So I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know that. And he's like, yeah, you played at the Bluebird Cafe. And he's like, that's, that's my favorite song. And I was like, oh, thank you, Dad. And you're like, I thought you met like, it's my favorite song, his favorite song in mind. And he was like, no, listen to me. That's my favorite song. And wow. And I was like, how are you even listening to it? He'd been listening to me play it on the Bluebird at the Bluebird on his gigantic, Timo, Timo, whatever that thing is. And that's how he was, he was actually my first fan. And he was the, you know, he would breathe so much life into me. He believed in me so much more than I ever believed in myself. And I remember him saying, you should sing that song. And when he died, I sang it at his funeral. And it was one of the hardest songs I've ever sang. But in that moment, like that was, that was when, you know, I knew things were about to change. But yeah, and that song has helped so many people. And it's, I don't know, it's been a bit of a thesis statement for me. So when he said, write a good song for me, he knew, he knew I had already written one, at least in his eyes, because it was his favorite song ever. So he knew, at least he had proof on his phone that I was capable of writing something great. And he, I guess his last charge was to please keep going. And don't stop. And you know, it's got to feel good for him to be like even in a moment, like, I mean, that's crazy to say this. What am I talking about? But in a moment of leaving the earth to know that you have a son or someone who can, who, you know, you've created that's capable, you know, you have a child that you believe is capable. I wonder what, you know what I'm saying? Or something like that? No, yeah, and my other siblings are also very capable. He's very proud of all of us equally. But I think he, he knew something about me was different, very young. I was a very quiet kid, a very nerdy kid. I was, I had his name and his eyes, but, you know, outside of that, we were so different. So he, he all, I think he just knew I was going to do something different. He's probably intrigued, I bet. Yeah. And I like picked up guitar and taught myself. And he was like, just always mesmerized by like my musical ability, because it seemed like magic to him. Because it was, it was God given it. Like I, nobody taught me how to do this. Really? Yeah, no. Oh, you just picked it up and started playing? Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, I learned some tablature and, and, um, but, you know, I, I sucked real bad then. But that was, this is you right here? Yeah, that's probably like a week after I got my first guitar. I don't know if that even made a couple of days. That's something. They were watching the Ross family. Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, lithium. Yeah. Yeah. Who is that? Is that your dad now? No. This is some random old dude. And this is after my dad had passed away. Like none of this stuff, like on my whole music, none, I didn't have any music out when he was alive. Oh, okay. So they're just packaging this all up. Yeah, this is all like old VHS footage from when I was a kid. That's me getting my first guitar. Oh, that's cool. Even though I would probably come 12. Look how hot. Look, go back. Look, hold on. Yeah, hold on. Right? A little more right there. Look how hot. You can see how happy it cool. Yeah, you can see for a second. See if you can catch his face a second earlier. Maybe a second later. It was. You can see how happy it is, you know? That's cool, dude. Thank you. I'm gonna be cool now. No, it's so fun, dude. I might actually have, you know, I might actually be able to talk to a girl now. Oh, dude. Yeah, at least if you walk up with a guitar, at least you're rocking this like that. At least they'll be like, hey, what do you do? You know what I'm saying? I'm sort of, someone's instead of hot and putting hair in your eyes and hot and hot. That's what I did. I said nothing to nobody. Oh, dude, that was most of my childhood. But when I was growing up, I was thinking about what are the responsibilities of a son? You know, people don't think about that a lot. I think about what do my parents owe me a lot as a kid? Or I have probably, you know, like, my parents didn't do this or my parents didn't do that. You know, that's been, you know, or some things didn't happen and should have happened. That's fair. But when I start to harp on the other stuff and it gets into this like, oh, whoa, is me? Or pity me type of thing? You know, that can be kind of an unsafe area to go into. But the two can be easily connected. Like things that, yes, a parent should do these things or those things should be. A child's, I should include these things and they don't happen. And then, well, a parent, they don't owe you these things but attaching those together. But I never think about like, what is it? What are my responsibilities as a son, you know? Or as a child? You know what I'm saying? You don't think that because at a certain point, you do have some responsibility to any yourself, you know? Yeah. I mean, I've, I've had a lot of thought about that. And, you know, I grew up thinking the same thing as you, like maybe, you know, things should have been different. But at the same time, I tend to think about my parents as children because they had me as children. They were like, it was a shotgun wedding. My mom was six months pregnant. They were teenagers having babies. And so I also think about them like, oh my gosh, like I have a lot of sympathy for them as I was older, but, you know, growing up, I had, you know, anger and resentment towards certain things that I did not understand. But I've kind of tried to, you know, understand that, you know, it's very like biological about like, kind of how fathers and sons or just children and their parents. And in the, in the, in the beginning of your, your, your father is like super human or he's a super hero, like humanized demon eyes and idolized is kind of how I put it down. So in the beginning, you idolize your father. And you idolize everything they do. I remember idolizing my father, like wanting to be a boxer just like him, wanting to do so many things like him. And I would hide in his shadow and I idolized him my whole childhood. And then once I got into my teen years, that's when that separation starts to begin. And you start to demonize your parents. And, um, and you go through this whole demonization of your father or your parents where, and it's actually very biological. This is how like, you know, genetic diversity was spread because we're a tribal species. So like the young boy, a young man in his reproductive years would start to demonize the parents and get away from the tribe and go join another tribe so we can create, procreate. So we can procreate and create genetic diversity. Right. Because he will procreate to close to his own tribe. He also risks like, uh, yeah, inbreeding. Yeah. Like the guy that taught me how to drive. Yeah, exactly. And I'm not saying no shade brand. And I think he was bred properly. It was just, you know, God puts him out of paint and it is palette. We love you, Brandon. Yeah, we love you. And actually he passed away for years ago. We do love you. He's a special guy. Oh, I'm so sorry, Brandon. But yeah, and then, uh, as, you know, I think eventually you come back home. There's always like this prodigal song kind of moment. And that's where you humanize your father. Because that's what happened with me. Like, you know, you start off as a kid idolizing it. You get to teenage years, those years that I, you know, he got me that guitar. It's probably going to start demonizing him soon. And, uh, he wanted to at least have a backbeat for it. Yeah, exactly. Like put all those, those angsty lyrics. He put those, put that anger to lyrics. Yeah, at least make it a bot. And then, uh, and then I remember when I was 25, like, I was sitting on the porch with my dad and I just remembered I was like, you're just a dude. Oh, yeah. And that's when I, the humanization hit. And I was like, you're just another dude doing the best you can. And I could see it in his eyes and we were just kind of like, we were, you know, the father and son dynamic was still there, but he was now a friend and something bigger than a father. He's another human like you say. He's another human. And that's a tough moment of it. It's an interesting moment to look at because it's almost, it almost breaks down the wars you were fighting or the whatever. You know, it breaks down like a lot. Everything. Right, it breaks down the pedestal. You held this person on and away in a way, some of it. But it also breaks down if you've been demonizing it like, well, who am I fighting? I'm not fighting against, you know, the 20, the 32 year old dad, the guy that I knew who like walked by me and didn't glance or whatever your thoughts are, whatever your, whatever like you're envisioning, that's not there anymore. You know, and it's like then what then this whole like baton that I'm still carrying of anger, that's not even real. Yeah. So what's really happening here with me? And that's like a moment you kind of have to look at yourself as well. And that's kind of painful. Yeah, it's very much a self reflective moment and you kind of start to see kind of like, man, I was a selfish little shit or I was, you know, maybe you were justified in certain areas, but yeah, at the end of the day, they're just another human doing the best they can, just like you and who am I going to be now? That's the thing too. And sometimes I go back and I put on my old mate. Sometimes I go back and I'm the same person, but more often than not these days, I do a decent job of like, well, let me be the leader instead of saying you should have led me or you should let me, let me grow up. It's like how many times do am I going to fucking miss the grow up bus, you know, like I'm on it. But still, sometimes I'll stop you there at the stop in the morning and I'll be like, now I'm gonna let that bitch go today. You know what I'm saying? I ain't getting on that bitch today. So some of that's interesting and it's interesting to look at and you're still just a human looking at it and trying to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's, I think all part of the journey and like, yeah, it all, it's rooted in something very old. Like I always thought like that teen angst thing was like something created in the 90s or something. It's like, no, this is pre-biblical. This is something that's been going on for a long time. Yeah. You study primates enough and you can really kind of see a lot of, you can learn a lot about humans by studying primates because they're also, you know, we're technically primates too. Yeah, there's rumors. There's rumors. Yeah, I mean, we're all part of the animal kingdom, kingdom, anamelea and we are of the, you know, we're technically of the greater apes. That's what they call us. What do you think happened? Do you think, do you think we, what do you think they're about evolution? 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Steve is a long-term sexual recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to do the same. Steve is an amazing person and he is a close friend of mine. I mean that. Valor Recovery helps men to develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life. Their coaches are in long-term recovery and will be your partner, mentor and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors. To learn more about Valor Recovery, please visit them at www.valorrecoverycoaching.com or email them at admin at valorrecoverycoaching.com. Thank you. There you go brother. Popping into that Celsius brother. I'll have a little with you. There you go. Steven Wilson Jr. right there. Yeah, I remember I came to and we took a bathroom break and Steven put him on a nice sweater. I did. It's nice. It looks like my grandma's curtain. So it feels... Oh yeah dude, my grandmother... She, my grandfather worked at a factory in their town. It was a small town called Wyoming, Illinois. It was real small. But it was nice when we went there because it just the world kind of made sense there a little more. It was like a safe place to be. They had a park right across the street and they had a garden where most people had gardens where they grew like strawberries and tomatoes. Everybody had tomato plants, cherry tomato plants and the summers, the roads were bubble in the summer from the tar. And so it was like kind of crazy because every now and then you somehow, you'd be an idiot, at least once a year and you would run across to the park but you would not have your shoes on and you would hit that road and you would literally. You would have black cars. But we called NAACP fee, you know. And I don't know if that's a racially charged terminal. I don't think it is. I think it's safe. But yeah, you would get you would just... And but the crazy part is once you got the NAACP, you'd be faster at the park. That was the craziest part too. You know, we got that extra soul now. That is what it was. Yeah, you got something to grip now. Oh, you went on my grandmother's new soul. Yeah, you were locked. You got a free pair of Nike's. You did, bro. But there was so many fun things just about being in like a small Midwestern community. Safety of it. The bike riding, the like baseball cards, dude, we would go to the space. They had a dime smell of them. The shitty chewing gum in the pack. That's so stale. It was so gross. You'd eat it every time. Yes, every time. I don't care how bad it is. Sometimes it would just disintegrate. Yeah. So I needed to like break off and like you could open a box with it. And every card was marked grace. I felt like every card was marked grace or Sean Dunston or Chris Saybo. They were all the way to Bob. Yes. Yes. Saybo. Gosh, man, you're dropping well, dude, I mean, your song, 1994 was like, it's just one of the best pieces of nostalgia. Like I remember, yeah, I remember like when I was a kid, my mom had this rug in her room and it was like, I think it was a cow. I don't know where she got it from or something. It was kind of like a prized possession. It was just like a cow skin rug. It could have been a day. I'm Dalmatian or something. I don't know. It looked like it could have been a big damage. It could have been a fashion rug. It could have been a great day. And we got swindled. But anyway, mom, but she said it was a cow. And I would lay there and I would like put my face right on it. And I would inhale it and like because I didn't get to spend a lot of time with my mom, but sometimes at night, like she would put on hand cream or something. And that was like a big thing when I was a kid, hand cream came out for women and said, women were always just put, I mean, God, I'd be like, mom, do you love me? And she'd be like, well, hold on. Let me put this hand cream on, you know, it was, yeah, it was just, she had every woman at the time had to have hand cream. It's like, she, they couldn't even cook anymore because they couldn't open the, the, the covers because they just were too, they would slip out of their hands. I think women were looking at for an excuse to get it. I can't pick up a pot. I just, I'll drop it. I have too much cream. Everything's cast iron back then. Yeah, it was like, we can't, yeah, we can't afford to lose any of this. Yeah. But I would lay in there and I would like put my face on the carpet, like on the rug. And I would inhale that smell of like leather and, and I would just kind of pretend that like, I lived in like a different world or that like, like we didn't have a dad around. So I, I don't know if I'd pretend like there was like this manly energy ever, just something, you know, it would kind of like, the smell would fuel my imagination. You know, when I would just fantasize it like we lived on like a ponderosa that we lived out in like New Mexico or Texas or something, you know, or like, I don't know, just that things were different. But there was something about when you were a kid or when you were young and just putting your face on the carpet, it was like, we used to do, there wasn't, you weren't on your phone all the time. And TV, you couldn't just have whatever you wanted. So you, you would just do kind of crazy things. You look into the couch just to see what was under there. Like nobody does that anymore. Yeah. Yeah, that was exciting. That was almost like taking a vacation or whatever's looking under there. Flashlight, man. Blow your mind. There's a whole other world under here. Like spiders. There's like, yes. You'd be curious about the things you had in your own world and you'd ask, Mama, what is this for? Why do we have this? There was just a lot more like the storytelling you needed. It was like more prevalent, you know, and you had to tell a story. You had to find some value. Like we created the stories. There wasn't like the internet where you could just go and like, oh, share this link, you know, we like, that's why the storytellers are so valuable things. It was like, oh, you got to ask him the only way you're going to hear this is if you ask him, you know, or her. And they're going to tell you about it. And man, that was the best. What do you think? It's maybe a maybe out of place here, but you know, because I feel like stand up comedy and songwriting is kind of our last kind of that's our that's our, you know, that is our storytelling. Because yeah, like you're right, people don't pass down those stories generally anymore like they used to. I wonder if people are craving comedy and creating songwriting, craving songwriting in the in the same way that, you know, we we used to because there maybe is a lack of that. Those stories may have passed down in that. Because I feel like, you know, great comedians are great storytellers and great songwriters are great storytellers. And that is something that our culture is really not latching on to is telling stories, even like a good joke. It's hard to find somebody. You know, when I was growing up, there would always be like somebody that would just have like a thousand jokes. And they weren't comedians. They weren't professional comedians. And they they weren't wanting to be. And but they just had a myriad of jokes, which are basically stories like they would go, you know, they would infuse the jokes into the stories. Like you wouldn't know if they were telling the truth or not. Oh, yeah. And now it's like, it's kind of a lost art that you don't really see. But like happening a lot anymore. Yeah, they had good storytelling. Well, storytelling was a big thing. Well, I think this is a, this is a more general way to look at it. I think we've lost some creativity. Yeah. And I think we've lost creativity in a lot of ways. I think it's one of the reasons why Los Angeles is struggled in some ways because in the beginning Hollywood at Hollywood is kind of struggled in some ways. And I say this like in the sense that it started to feel super uncreative out there. Right? And I don't mean to speak bad on that, but I just think it's a note for that we've just we've we're missing some creativity in the world. And I think the gatekeepers of creativity are starting to fall. So I think you are like, I think we're in a desperate place for creativity. And for authenticity, where creativity, you feel like it's there's something genuine about it. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. That's a great question, man. Yeah. I, you know, I think authentic is like you said is because it's really hard to authenticate anything anymore. It's kind of hard to find out what is real and what is not. And you know, I tend to authenticate things with emotions and experience. Like if I write a song, I kind of have to write it from I can't write or perform anything that I cannot authenticate from my own experiences and my own emotions. So was it that make it tough for you to write songs for other people? I think that was a big challenge for me trying to get other people to see the authentic authentication of my emotions. And finding that authenticity within themselves, perhaps. And that alignment happening for sure was a difficult challenge. And for you say you write a song you somebody takes it or somebody accepts it, you know, is a and they're going to cut it. And then you're like it doesn't really fit them person. That's a nightmare too that you don't think about. And then it's really tough. Did ever happen to you? Yeah, I did. And I mean, but you know, I think a lot of it is they weren't able to authenticate the emotion that I would that's the that the music had come from that it had originated from. And that's not their fault. And it's really not mine. It was just kind of the nature of the business. But yeah, I think, you know, it's tough. If I've had any advantages, like the only way I can create a song is is I have to authenticate it in something truly real. I can't like I can't do fantasy music. I can't like I can't be like something I can't be Superman. I can't be a Marvel character in right. I can't play something I'm not. I think it's because there's too much of you already who you are that I don't even think you know, it would fit. You're just a rare foot. You don't say it's like a rare foot. It's like, yeah, some feed it can be like, oh, we'll put it in something. It'll look good here to look good here. But I think we're like, no, that's that's yeah, I was called different a lot as a kid. It was not a compliment. Most of the time it was really, but I have to say it has been an advantage of as of late and like being the weirdo finally helped out. Oh, for sure. You know, for so long, your Clark can't and you're in there just, you know, changing clothes in a phone booth or whatever, people like this guy is a pervert or whatever. Yeah. And then eventually come out and think some things start to fit. I've heard you say, I've heard you say that songwriting kind of was like a survival tool for you. That's the right words. No, yeah, it was like it was my therapy, especially in those first couple years after my dad died like I kind of a I used to science and songwriting at the same time because I have a lot of training in science. I went and got a science degree at work. Would you do a Purdue? No, I went to MTSU. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I worked at Mars, the food company in R&D for them as a food scientist. Oh, yeah. Mars candies. Research and development for them. Yeah, they're they're based they're based on the snickers. They do, but I actually worked in pet food for them, which is based out here in Nashville, the Nashville area. At least and snacking on that, huh? Yep. That's me right there. Shit, I wouldn't even go to work if that's all they had in the damn snack bowl. Yep. And they did. They had like buckets of sneakers. I put on like 30 pounds. Oh, I'm so going to my pet food. No, yeah, they tell my God, if I eat that much fat food, I'd wear a damn, I wear a damn helmet too. That's insane. People did eat pet food there. I saw it with my own eyes. Would they with some people try a little? I got used to it. Yeah, I'd see some people do it. Like sometimes like, you know, you'd see some high level people do it too. Like I was like, you don't need to do this. Oh shit, that's just cracker jack Russell. You know, they're just trying to like, you know, get down, you know, get down with this a little bit. Oh, yes. Some people love animals so much. You'll have a, you know, there's people that even videos of people that will snack with them and have those little treats. Yeah, I don't advise it from a microbiological perspective. Really? Because I have a micro degree as well. I wouldn't eat raw cat food. I mean, it does go through like a cooking process. I mean, your brother, I'll tell you that out the gate. But I did see dudes eat it. Would you? Yeah, like the spoon, like, wet cat food. Eat it. I think there's a flex. No, there's a flex. Yeah. Is there one type that's the good type? Take me through some of that. No, it's all as far as like cat food to eat. Yeah, this is a snack. No, I don't want to try none of it because I knew what was in that. And I knew like what was in like proteins and all that that goes into those foods. And I understood all the kill steps and stuff were there. But I also know that my digestive tract is far different from a few lines or canines and we ain't made to eat with their made to eat. So yeah, I didn't really, I did not partake. But yeah, you'd see a dude like take a big spoonful of cat food and then like drive off in his Lamborghini because you know, it was usually like a high level person. Yes. It was a power move. It was impressive though. You know, I was just talking to my friend this morning breakfast about things that the powerful do and why they operate certain ways because it's like, yeah, what can I do? How weird or could this get? If you have everything, if the if the basic like I need to make money to survive, I need to feed my family or once you have like I have seven wives living in different cities, I'm going to live in a jet or I live in a some people might be living on other planets and I don't even know. Got their own islands. Yes, it's a dimwodo. Yeah, at this point. Yes, I'm having cat food, but I'm with the greatest cat food ever. I want cat food that cats can't even afford to eat. Yeah. And sometimes they pretend like they could discern between they're not going to like this. I was like, you're not a cat. Or he's eating this for cats. He's like saying like he's basically stating he's eaten so much of this food. He can now discern between what we'll work and what we'll not. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Oh, that's good. They're not allowed to talk this. Yeah, you'll be able to have a lot of cats are going to love this. It's a loppy aftertaste. What was the product that you guys made while you were there? Do you remember one part of that kind of came through? Yeah, it's called Dintestix Fresh. It's still on the market. I see it out there. And it's animals. Yeah, it's for dogs. It's a it's a basically a teeth cleaning dental tube. That's pretty great digestible. There it is. That's my baby right there. Oh, yeah, I've seen that before. Yeah, that was one of my products that I launched from start to finish. Yeah, that's cool. It's cool. It's cool to see it kind of out there still still doing its thing. Yeah, at the end of the show, you hump some of those out in the audience. Yeah, I probably need to start chucking them out there like take a bite out of my catch one. Catch one in my mouth. No, I would eat one of those if I had to, but I wouldn't eat none of that cat food. That's fair. And look, I love that. That's mostly like flour. That's mostly wheat flour. And you got, you know, it ain't got the same ingredients as cats. Did you ever pitch a product that they didn't like or you allowed to pitch products? Yeah, I did. I pitched a lot of products. But at the end of the day, I was the geeky scientist and now you need to make what you need to make. And they have a much, I think a greater understanding of what the market requires than some of his geeky scientists do. I'd mount a lab and I would come up with these new things and new designs and pitch them in my free time. And there was a lot of creativity to it. And you know, that was, you know, there's actually a lot more creativity to analysis than you think. And there's a lot more analysis to creativity than you think. I think the two can work very well together and like back to what I was saying. But like when my dad died, I was able to kind of apply science and songwriting because I was like so devastated. But like I was kind of able to metaphorically put a lab coat on and go into research or mode. And that's kind of where the songs came from. I just started like looking at my pain from another perspective, like trying to look at it from the outside in as an observer. And then just kind of documenting my findings as I went. Like I spent four years making this record son of dad and like two or three of those years were research years, just made documenting everything I was going through. And keeping, you know, meticulous records, scientists too. But I was channeling that into songs instead of like, you know, a pet food product. But I was still using the same methodology. Like because I had to be true to it. Because that's the thing about science. It's just a truth detection tool. It's not an ideology or a paradigm. It's just a it's just an effective tool if it's used correctly. It's a metal detector. Yeah. Exactly. Or a chainsaw. Even if you use it great, it can be great. But you use it right. It can be great. If you use it wrong, it might cut your damn hand off. Like science created the atomic bomb. It's also created cures for uncurable diseases that we thought. It's a beautiful thing. But at the end of the day, it's just a tool for detecting truth. And I used it like that. So I would have this question. And I'd have my observations. And then I'd create a hypothesis, as you would say, which would basically be a song, a song title and idea. And I would go out and test it in the world. I'd play in front of seven people here, 10 people there, seven people here, seven people there. And I would get instant data feedback, which is data that when I'm in the scientific field, we can spend six months before we can be six months before you get your first result from an experiment. So I was getting instant results. So I love that part of it. Yeah. I think that instant feedback is, I mean, yeah, it helps you know what's going on. It's even like working with the jokes, you know, and you can get them out. Absolutely. It's pretty fascinating how like the parts of your life, like to be a scientist, to have like a methodology, to then use it to channel your emotions and look at them. You look at your emotions, look at your life, look at the path of things, you know, to put like, to almost like take a template of science and apply it to something as emotional as music. Yeah, that kind of joke around, call them myself a song scientist, but that's essentially what it is. I mean, because, you know, user bias is like it can so easily contaminate your results and contaminate your entire experiment experiment and experience. And so I really was trying to use user bias because I was trying to authenticate something in one of my own emotions and experiences, but also take user bias out of it because at the end of the day, you got to find the truth. And just because you don't like the results, doesn't mean they're not true. And that's where user bias, like gets in the way because you want the results to be different. Maybe you really like this song, but you're not getting the results that you thought it was going to get. So you start, you started adjusting your formula. And then before you know it, you got conclusive results, either conclusively, this is not the truth or conclusively, this is the truth. And then you run with the truth, whether it's good for you or bad for you. And that's yeah, I was just looking at this right here. It says user bias refers to cognitive tendencies that distort how individuals perceive, interpret or respond during research. What are examples of user bias? For example, you, you think that this is going to work for whatever reason you have a hunch like that this, whatever thing is going to work. And you've now like attached an emotion to it because you almost need it to work now. Now it now it's more about you than it is about the truth. Like so when you go into like an experiment, it doesn't need to work out for you. Like your feelings have to be completely separate from that. If you're doing true research, if you're going to be a true researcher and using the scientific method the proper way. So you know, that's I guess when you get into a song, especially a song about your dad or a song about loss, it's easy to be like, it needs to be like this. It needs to say this or it needs to say that because that's what's going to make me feel good, but that's may not be the truth. Yeah, I think your songs don't really take me on like a, they don't take me on a typical journey of like a beginning, middle, and end, I guess. And some of them are different than others, of course. But yeah, I guess sometimes you think of a song, especially if it's a country song, I think of having like a beginning, middle, and end almost like a journey where it's yours. And I'm sort of like take me on a ride down, a ride past something or through something. Yeah. And it's not as much of like you're giving me this story as much as you are providing some things. And I'm the story, I'm remembering the story of mine that pertain, that associates with it. Yeah. I mean, and I'm trying to like, what the fuck do I know? But some of that happens with your music. That's what I'm saying. Well, that's if there's any goal I've ever had as a songwriter is to basically do that because I remember I heard this song called Don't Take the Girl on a School Ball. Yeah. It made a mess out of me. And yeah, because everything, it's like, then this is now he's 20 years older and then he now it's the end of the time. But I was able in the weirdest way because my mom was, you know, my mom and dad divorced when I was really young and she was with some abusive men. And she lived in Tennessee when I was a kid. And I was always I spent most of my childhood very worried about her like really very worried about her getting killed or hurt really badly. Why did she like abusive men, do you think? I think probably a lot her childhood was very, very hard. Oh, so maybe something happened and then she were away. I think I think she's a beautiful lady. What's her name? Kathy, Kathy Lynn. Kathy Lynn. There she is. Yep. And you know, she's just a baby having a baby. And you know, trying to and my dad was an, you know, a great, a great man. But they were also teenagers and they were kind of like forced to wed because of religion. You know, like she was six months pregnant when they got married. With me, there's no way they were going to have a child out of wedlock. Right. That was in not going on. Not cool. And then they ended up having two more kids and before they know it, they're 22 years old and they got three kids. And it's that crazy. And so that, you know, I have to you know, give her a lot of, you know, a lot of grace because of, you know, her life was very hard and she was very young. And I don't understand a lot of the, you know, some of those choices she made. But I remember, you know, spending most of my childhood and fear of her, of getting that call that she was, she was gone. Yeah. But she, your mother still alive. Yes. She is. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. And she's had a wild year and she's, she's very much with us. And she's had a wild year. Yeah. She almost got killed this year on an ATV accident. It's wild that you brought that picture up. But she literally, yeah, she, she had a very much a near death experience. She spent two months in the ICU and, yeah, it was, it was, it's been a wild year for all of us, especially her ATV deaths happen to so many people. Yeah. I don't, people don't realize how popular it is. I don't want one of them damn things anywhere around me. When I say we're getting you one this year. No, please I'm gonna say it. Yeah. I'll say it on anybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Skip go with that one. Yeah. That one King go on to the next and United States ATV Relid desperately range from 309 annually. But yeah, it's, I don't know why we're even talking about this. And I'm sorry. But I'm glad to know that she's doing well. Well, when you guys were young, what kind of stuff, was she struggling with stuff or yeah, yeah, she had a lot of struggles and young ages so tough. Can you imagine that when your mother, can you imagine like when I was 22, I was just concerned if I had enough, you know, time and might have dated jerk off without somebody bothering me. And here there were people feeding children. Yeah. She like, I mean, she had no business having children. But yeah, they had these, you know, they very much had these children and she was going through some really tough stuff. And you know, like my dad got custody of us, which was kind of right at the time. At the time. But I remember hearing that song and I was able to put her in that song. Yani's daddy. And it didn't make no sense that, you know, like, why is my mom in this song? She shouldn't be like, it doesn't follow the storyline. Over your head put her in there. My head put her in there. And I was able to copy and paste all of my emotions into that song. And three and a half minutes later, I was a wreck. Like, like, not because of the song, but because of my mom being in the song. Right. And I was like, okay, that's like to me, that's what the wizardry of songwriting is. Like Craig Martin and Larry Johnson wrote that song. Not knowing that some Southern Indiana boy was going to be like, you know, be ballin on a school bus with around a bunch of FFA kids. Wasn't a good look. And, um, yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, that's really what I mean, I would say that was the moment that I really got bitten by or like song bit, so to speak. Because I realized that music was more than just beats and sounds and making words rhyme. It was literally taking a stick like, like taking someone's life and making it part of a piece of art. And, um, and that's, and that's, that's really what a great song does. And I think the real great songs out there, um, and in me as a songwriter, the only thing I've tried to pay forward was that. So when you said that, like, I was, you're able to put yourself in those songs. That's really all I've ever hoped to achieve. Not so much to put, just put myself in those songs. I want to put other people in those songs and let them be the star of it, not me got it. And I feel like that's if it's, if it's anything that's what how people respond to the music, it's about them. It's, it has nothing to do with me up there. I'm just a vessel. Yeah. No, I think, and I think there's a lot of guys that are trying to feel. I think for especially for a lot of young man, it's been like, there's a lot of feeling and processing that that we've missed somehow or we haven't found a way to do it. I think, um, it's the same thing that I notice with some of a red clay strays music. And it's different. You guys, this stuff is totally different. But if you go to their show, they're, they're great. They're show it's a lot of men, probably of a kind of adult man who are processing or trying to find ways to process stuff. That's what I believe anyway. And it's, it's just, it's interesting to see that. It's interesting to see like, where do we go to process stuff and how do we do it? And, uh, yeah, I think your music does a lot of that for people. Yeah. And that's why I was saying that, yeah, it would be hard for you to write for somebody, which makes it a little bit tougher to have a career in some ways, because you don't have like, you're you. And you can write some songs and, but man, that what your stuff is so personal, it feels like to your brain and perspective and attitude that it'd be hard for a regular foot to fit into it. You know, yeah, that was that that was the challenge. You know, like there's, there's, you know, this sounds so much like you that was right. And, you know, but at the same hurts at the time, because you're like, well, fuck, I'm just trying to do that. But then in the end, it's like, oh, well, I'm the I'm the instrument. Yeah. And that just takes yeah. And then that's a, that's a, that's a gift that you are. Because if you to get found this other avenue that was for songwriting, and I know you've had some success in it. But if you found this other avenue that was hugely successful, then you may not have continued to nurture or the energy may not have been on the seed that was you, you know, the sunlight might not have focused on you to keep that girl. Honestly, if my dad was still alive, I mean, none of this would have happened. I mean, really, if, you know, I'd probably be just writing songs trying to get cuts and probably still still failing at it. And, uh, here, dad would be selling merch for you. Be nice. Uh, yeah, he might, he would, I mean, he would still be there with his giant phone, probably recording every bit of it. Proud as hell. Um, man, my, my, uh, I was just thinking about my day. So my day was very old when I was born. And so I remember like, I was ashamed of my dad. So I had a lot of shame about him, you know, by gripping a lot of fear to in our house, hold like my sister was real sick. And so I was always scared that she was going to pass away. And then my dad was old. So he was in his 70s when I got to know him. It's always afraid he was going to pass away. So it was like this constant thing of like, you know, it just felt like somebody was just going to hang down, you know. So it made everything kind of dour. Yeah. I think or, I don't know. It made it like the perspective was dim. That's what it was. And my brother would mess with me. He'd come in the room and he'd be like, dude, dad's dead. And I'm like, what? He'd be like, going there, dude, going there right now. And my dad would fall asleep all the time because he was like 76 or 77. And those people like to sleep a decent amount during the day. And I'm if he'd be a sleep reader, he'd like, there was a lot of people like, I'm awake. I'm at work. You know, like, yeah, I'm married, you know, that it's not forgetting that things are important, you know. But I would go up and I would have to go like any would be alive. And I would be like, fuck you, you're full of shit. So then it got to this weird part where my brother would come there and he'd like, dude, dad's dead. I have like, dude, he'd better be dead when I go in there. Or I'm going to beat your ass. So it became and it flipped this whole perspective of like, what was normal in the world? So my friend, you have like, dude, what do you mean he'd better be dead? You know, fight your brother. You know, but no, he does this all the time, dude. He's not freaking dead. You're like, I don't know, you were combating the dark arts with other dark arts. Yeah. I'm a mom about Ghostbin time with your dad because he's probably going to die soon. He like, all right, you know, and shit like that. But she was just doing us to get us out of the rooms as you could tidy up or something. You know, some trick. But it was just weird shit, you know. And so, and it was true too. You probably was going to die soon. So it was like, we'll get in there and spend some time with a withdrawal picture of them. We probably have like 70 pictures of we drove crayons. But it should like go in there and draw a picture of, you know, you're going to want it, you know, and have horrible pictures, you know, and sometimes we'd be drawing like, is a black guy that's like, oh, you know, just like, because it would seem more exciting or whatever. Were you, were you quiet as a kid? No, I don't think that I was. I think I was like kind of curious. And I like to make excitement somehow. Like I like to create ambiance for things. But I think I was probably, I don't know, my mom says she didn't tend to me that much because it seemed like I was doing fine. Yeah. So she didn't think I needed like a lot of attention because she felt like I was doing okay, you know, because we've had like some conversations about that stuff. But yeah, I think that was a bigger regret I had was that I had like a lot of shame about my dad's age. And so I didn't even embrace him really that much, you know, because I just, I was ashamed of it. Wow. But it's just life's just harrowing like that. You and I had like polar opposite dads. My dad was like a baby. And I was like, I guess I was kind of, I wouldn't say I was I was, yeah, it was. Yeah, they were just kind of totally different perspectives to think about. Like my dad was like a child. Like I honestly like a big brother really a lot of ways because he was only 18 years older than me. Oh, yeah, that's pretty normal. I mean, I was like, there's actually like, there's actually siblings out there that are like 15, 15 years older than their siblings, you know, yeah. So yeah, I mean, that that had to be that had to be tough. I find that people that are, that's why I asked, you know, people that are spending, I know I spent my whole childhood in a state of fear of loss, fear of losing someone really unloosable at that time. Like what we make that happen is such a, oh, because your mom being a mom, yeah, I was like, like losing her was not like something I was willing to bear, but it seemed like it was inevitable and have like something that was like just around the corner too. So like it made me like retreat as a kid. It made me like really quiet and observe it like observe everything. You got to make sure things okay. Yeah. And keep my mouth shut because like I didn't want to say something or, you know, like, you know, that could cost me her. Yeah, it could cost me her or, you know, I didn't want to draw attention to it or speak anything into existence about it. And I didn't want anybody to know about it either. So it was like my own little, you know, my own little thing. And my dad didn't know about a lot of her what she was going through with her other husbands like I was something that I knew about. Yeah. And that was a tough secret to carry because, you know, it was, you know, he would have never, he wouldn't have wanted me around that. And God knows what he would have done to those dudes. And he probably would have killed them or something. And so I was, I was always worried. I was always trying to protect my dad from himself. And I was trying to protect my mom from herself. It made me grow up real quick. And I bet your dad's situation probably made you grow up quicker. Or you'll wear that's the thing. And the worst thing to be is as you own kid in some ways. And it's just so aware. But because then you're living on this different timeline. You're living on this other thing. It's good to be oblivious in those years. Yeah. And really ignorant to like the pain and the, you know, the magnitude of that is the weight of loss as a kid. Like we insulate and protect, we protect children from that. Yes. We don't even bring him the funerals because we don't want them to see the. That's something my dad, I got to say I could give him a lot of credit because I've been, I've seen people die from a young age from grandparents, the family members, like he would bring me to funerals probably because he couldn't find a babysitter. Like what's he going to like get a babysitter or have us wait in a car? He's like, no, you're going to come and look at the. You're going to see this dead person because one day it could be me. And like my dad would drop us off at funerals in our town if it was to, in order to get time away from, he dropped us off at two funerals in our town and I had no, you know, anybody at any would take us to leave us at Burger King for eight hours. Like they were a babysitter. He had no, I'm like, and every time we were like, Dad, they do not want us there anymore. Like we ate like 11 Prince toast eggs that people gave us and they don't even have a play place. He like, he enjoyed the play place and he's like, it's the wrong one. Burger King doesn't have it. You don't have it everywhere. So this lady named his wandah, she was always like the lady that would take care of us in there and we would just drink those surups when people left them and they were, we'd be at the fucking Burger King for like eight hours talking to people, me and my sisters and it would just be bizarre. But you'd end up in bizarre shit like that, you know. My dad would take, he'd be like, drive me over to the post office because I was kind of tall when I was 10 or 11, maybe 12. So I'd drive him over there. But I don't have a driver's license or anything. And there'd be no parking spots. He'd be like, we'll just do a couple laps from the block while I'm in here. And I'd be like, and there was this huge cutless as Delta 88. And so I was like, I can't drive this bitch and didn't have power steering. Dude, I would hit and the car was so banged up. I fucking hit probably seven cars going around that block. On naked cars with that. Oh dude, just in all kinds of shit because these things are solid. And there was no like mirrors or there was no house around. There was no mirrors for sure after I hit the street, but there was no cameras. Nobody knew what had happened, you know. And I would just be in there. And if dad had a weight to buy stamps, I'd be out there. I'd fucking hit 50 cars. But dude, it was just, you would be in crazy scenarios. A odd environment's put you in crazy scenarios that other people couldn't fathom. And then it would just kind of get your brain to like a different place. Yeah. So your brain was kind of operating in some wild territory. One of the things you said, yeah, I wonder how many kids are quiet because they're worried if they just talk if they affect the world in some way, that it could alter that they could, you know, because when you're a child, things are very balanced in your head. Like, I remember I would swallow on both sides of my mouth. I would be careful. I stepped. If I counted one, I had to count one on the other side of my brain. I always had like these two sides inside of me. And I'd like one over here, one over here. Like these little things I had to do, right? And I did the same thing. Yeah. Ticks. Little ticks. And it was because I had to keep things even. Everything had to be even. And so I wonder how many times kids operate in this space where it's like, I just can't affect anything too much because things as far as I recognize them are already like kind of on a uncertain folkroom, on a one-footed folkroom. And it's going to get weird, you know. Now, I think you just hit the nail on the head right there. It's interesting. Yeah. I think that was, I think you articulated it far better than I did or could have. But yeah, you're afraid to affect the world because you might change it for the worst. So like, I'm going to stay Switzerland and keep my mouth shut. Yeah. And I did that for most of my childhood. And then, but then a lot of the world happens inside of you then. Yeah. If it's not happening inside of you, a lot of the conversations and stuff, they happen inside of you, which is interesting. Yeah. And it's I think it can be painful and scary, but also kind of fascinating. It allows you to be by yourself a lot. And it teaches you and trains you to be alone and thrive in loneliness. And if there's anything or like with boxing, songwriting, I'm assuming comedy, you know, there's a lot of loneliness to it. You got to be inside your own head a lot in order to do it properly. Like, it's not like, you know, you just go up and play a baseball game and hit a homer. And then, you know, it's just it's this thing you got to stay in all the time. It's not event based. It's it's just kind of this state of mentality. That's a good point, especially with boxing, because boxing, most of it is for the training. Yeah. The fights are very rare. Yeah. The fights are rare and short compared to the training. So your father was a boxer. How did he get into it? Do you know how? Yeah. Well, he started probably a year before I was born. He saw Muhammad Ali fight. Muhammad Ali was like his hero hero. He's from Louisville, Kentucky. So very almost like a almost like a local dude to him. My dad just idolized him. He just watched all his fights, loved everything about him and and out of the ring. And I think yeah, he was just really inspired by Ali's story. And he literally just wanted to start boxing. And I think the movie Rocky probably just came out around that time too. I bet that probably had something to do with it. A lot of whites got caught up in that. Yep. And but I think with the combination of Muhammad Ali and Rocky Balboa, yeah, my dad said, hey, I want to put on some gloves. And before he knew it, he was he was fighting. And he started on his own just like literally fighting anybody like signing up for tough man competitions. And then he ended up finding this great gym up in Indianapolis and fighting under this coach named Champ Cheney. That was his name. Champ Cheney bringing him up. Let's get a gander at him. Yeah, I see this man today. I can still smell the cigar smoke. That's him. There you go. Champ. Oh, dude. I haven't seen him forever. Let him have a that second picture right there. That's exactly how I mean. He'd have that same sweater on every time I'd see him. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Police athletic league. That was the power clubs we'd fight at like we would open up for our dad's fights. Like when he got into like champs to the luge, that's when he started like really doing well. Okay. Because he didn't have any really good training. And very much like how Apollo trained Rocky. Champ trained my dad. Got it. He like reformatted his whole style. He taught him footwork. He taught him head movement. He taught him all the things that he lacked fundamentally because my dad was just a tough guy with a mean punch and a heart of a lion. Oh, yeah. And he could just train, train, train, train. He loved the train. He loved to work and Champ loved that about him. His work ethic. He'd show up in Indianapolis. He'd spar anybody. I remember him getting up in the morning and literally having to peel his eyes open to see us because of just sparring, not from a fight. Just sparring those dudes and champs. Jim dude might go ahead. You know, I was just going to say I mean, he had a lot of guys that didn't care for him. And I remember him talking about that. Like he really had to fight for his spot at that gym. Your dad did. He did. And what reasons would they have not to care about him or care for him? I think, you know, he just, I think Champ may be favorite him because he really put in a lot of work. Got in. He, I think Champ saw what he was going through. He's bringing his kids to the gym. And, you know, and he was very much out of sorts there culturally. And he was, he was fighting an uphill battle. And he was, and the wind was in his face and he just still kept going forward. And I feel like that's what Champ saw in him. And so when we started boxing as a kid, I mean, my first memories are the sounds of these fights. Like that right there, like I can smell that picture. Like I can smell the room. I can, it's cigar smoke and isopropyl alcohol with menthol in it. And it's, it's all there's ain't a lot of sweat and leather. And all the sound of like cops under the table gambling, screaming red and blue. Because that's where you, you be like red and blue. They, they have like red head gear. Like this was an exhibition fight. Me and my brother were fighting each other and this one. So we did, we didn't have an opponent. So they just have us fight each other. So that was one of the fights we, that was one of the fights we opened up for my dad. Both y'all are trophy too, which is fucking sure. Yeah. It's like a participation. If you, because it's an exhibition fight, if you both get one, yeah, I could see that. Just tell them well, there's, there's exhibition fights. And then there's competition. These were exhibitions. So in an exhibition fight, you both get a trophy. Got it. You're just exhibiting the sport of boxing. Not really. It's not going, nothing's going on your amateur record or anything like that. But then we ended up fighting other kids and when we, they could find a boy our size, the fight we'd fight him. And so we would open up like the first two or three fights on the card would be kid fights. Oh, that's fun. So I've, I joke around. I've been an opener for a long time. And uh, yeah, I really haven't. There's nothing fun of them watching a kid smoke cigarettes or fight another kid. A little kid. I did both of those things. Hell yeah. Yeah. There's something about that. I think they should have a zoo where you get to watch people do unique shit. Yeah. If they had a section where a couple kids are sitting there smoking, like, don't have a smoke all day because I know it's bad for them. But they get too cigarette today each. And it's like at a certain time they smoke and you all get to watch it. Like 15 minutes a day, you know, come and watch it. And you could stream it too. If you wouldn't want to go in person, you could stream it. But you're telling me some kids smoking it all my lunch break at 12 15 pm today, uh, you know, Gary or Robert or whatever's going to smoke. And you find a little Gary. Let me know. Yeah. Bubble wrap him. Check him. We don't. That's that's a precious. That's a Gary breed right there. Oh, yeah. Gary and Ian, isn't it? Gary and Ian is a wild place. I've heard. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I would watch a kid. I would love to watch a kid smoke, you know. Um, yeah. So and that's maybe that sounds very Russian. I mean, I don't know. I've been online a lot. Um, no, I think it's a very American thing, dude. But yeah, I just love like, I don't know. I love nostalgia too. That's something that I love, dude. I remember the first, uh, yeah, going to funeral. I just, I love the first of everything. Yeah. Because after the first time of everything, everything lost a lot of lustre for me in life. I think a lot of times. And I don't know why that is. And I don't mean it like super negative. Like I'm not down in the dumps or anything. Yeah. But I just, it's the first, it's like, there's something fascinating about the first time of everything. Yeah. Yeah. And nostalgia is a, it's a really effective tool as far as you know, making people go back to memories. Um, whether it's, you get attached. Yeah. When you get in your own memory, you're attached. Yeah. You know, it's like, um, yeah, there's just something that attaches you there. Yeah. And you're, and you can use senses to like a, like, as an appendage to nostalgia, like a sense of smell, a sense of sight or sound and touch all that. And I think if you kind of use those senses and appendage them to a certain type of nostalgia, you can unlock a memory within any human. Yeah. Like all humans. It doesn't have to be your memory. You can, you suddenly have a key to so many memories, so many minds and, uh, and yeah, you'll open up these memories that people have had vaulted for years. And when they come out, it's like, it's almost like seeing that toy that you got for Christmas when you were seven years old, that you were so excited about. But seeing it again for the first time when you're in your 30s or 40 and you kind of relive that excitement for at least a second, like, oh, man, I remember that feeling. I haven't seen that in 30 years. And when you can unleash that memory, it's just, it's, it's such a beautiful thing. You, you see it on people's eyes. You see them traveling through time. And, um, yeah, it's, it's like the first time you hear a song kind of that really touches you, you know, like, uh, it's a human thing. Why I got a new complaint. Yeah. Who, uh, who's saying that song? Yeah. Nirvana. It's heart-shaped box. That song was fucking good. Oh, it's incredible. Yeah. I hear that song from school to listen to that song, dude. And watch the video. Or I remember watching the video and just like, I remember like Kurt rocking back and forth in that chair, just everything about it. Like that whole record in Uniro was just like life changing for me. That was sentless apprentice. Oh my god. Yeah. This is the video. Oh, I do remember some of this now, dude. Uh, I've been locked inside your heart. Shave. Oh, dude. Yeah. When SoundGarden came up, bro, SoundGarden changed my mind. Stone temple pilot. I actually learned how to play guitar from SoundGarden. You know, people, if they're like, if I could like give anybody like, who taught you how to play guitar, it literally like if I could credit anybody, it would be the band SoundGarden. And I feel that SoundGarden. And the, uh, that's Stone temple pilots. That's they were also good. Oh, it's SoundGarden. What's a SoundGarden song? There's so many like, as far as hits, you got like black hole soon. Fell on black days. I blow up the outside world. One of my favorites. Um, Rusty K. It's pretty nice. The day I tried to live, uh, Fourth of July is heavy as hell. I love Fourth of July. Oh, that's Slaps. Super heavy. Dome, dome, dome, dome, well, that's Fourth of July. Dome, dome, dome, dome, dome. Oh, the outside. Dude, one of the greatest rock and roll vocal performances ever is blow up the outside world. Like, listen to that Chris Cornell vocal and just talk to me after it is like a, a clinic. Is it pretty good? But these almost play it real quick. We gotta get you, you're gonna play a couple songs for us today. Would you think Stephen? Yeah, let's do it. Come on. I'm scared. I wonder, let's listen to this together if we can. There's so much like John Lennon influencing this song. You can, oh. Woo. douse. douse. Oh, is it my eyes? Remember how videos were so much to then? Oh, riding somewhere to listen to a song by yourself? There was nothing like it! He used to, my buddy, he was smoke cigarettes in his car and he just threw him in the back seat when he was done smoking him. He was flipping the butt. Hold back seat, it burnt up like 70 times the back of his car. He would just speed up a little water bottle from his mom's hair salon and he'd like his ass it out. But his voice was like nobody's. Oh, it's insane. I mean, it didn't even seem human that he was doing this. No. Very few people had that range. I mean, I want to go that high but also go low and make it meaningful. And then go back down to this world. Yeah. And take you there. A lot of those high singers would lose you when they go down like that. Yeah, it's all, I mean, just so enveloped. Like you just, like you wanted to be in their world. Smash and pump because you got there was a lot of good. And I always, one thing I've never liked, I don't like music where you can't hear the words, right? Sometimes the way they do mix is something. It loses me. If I can't hear the words, that's the part that I need the most, right? Because I need to feel something like the beat and stuff helps it's cool for me. But for me, I've always been like, what are the words telling us, you know? I want to know the story. Yes, I want to feel something from it. Now, I'm with you that, I mean, that's the word. I'm a word nerd. Yeah. So assuming you are too. Oh, I love to write that was like my favorite thing. I think like one of my goals maybe the next couple of years would be to try to finally get a book done. Like I've written a lot of stuff. And I've written probably half of maybe two books. But I would like to finally get it done. But once video became so popular, it was just like, and once podcasting became a bit easier, it was hard to focus on that. Is there anything good in the news right now that we want to check out? Dude, I did, when you look up an article, Trevor, I saw something about Facebook and did research. And then they canceled it after it started to find beliefs that they didn't want. We were talking about that. We were talking about a few minutes ago about research. Yeah. What kind of user bias? Oh, about user bias. I'm boxing. Have you done any boxing? No, I've got a lot of MMA. I've got a lot of MMA stuff. I love it. As soon, you know what, I wouldn't mind getting into something more. The past year has been tough for me. I didn't invest in a like, the past couple years retouring. I kind of should have invested more of like having a trainer with me on the road or things like that. I kind of took some of that for granted. And I think in the future that I'll do it differently. But this year, I'd like to get more and a focus and more on my health and stuff like that. I really burned myself out pretty good. But I used to take MMA classes. And I have a feeling that I'll get back into it. I've also had traveled. I was moving a lot too. But now I'm going to be here more. And so I need to put some roots more in some places like that. So it's like, I'll be able to have more of a system like a pattern. And so it's been tough for me to have that. It's so hard to find that. I box a lot here in town. Or a lot when I'm in town. I try to as much as I can. But it's helped me so much just try to, even if it's two days a week. I only brought it up. I went to the UFC Performance Institute in Las Vegas last week. Because we played in Vegas last week and they invited me in. Are we at the fights? No, it was after the fights. But I saw Sean Strickland there. Oh, you did. Oh, dude, he's a really amazing guy. He's an interesting guy. Incredible. He's a deep soul. He is a deep soul. And just such a nice guy. Everybody there was so nice. They're so great. Did you get to work out there or train there at all? Yeah, I did. I trained with Brandon Jenkins there. You did? Yeah. Did you bring up Brandon Jenkins? I went to... I tried. I did. And yeah, Forest Griffin basically gave me the tour. And he met me there and I was like, holy hell. There he is. Nice, dude. Yeah. Yeah, he put some work on me. And that's awesome. Now I was really out of shape. But it was cool. I was like, I'm going to learn some new things. Like, he... You know, because I only train with boxing guys. And he's an MMA guy. So it was just... There was a lot of different angles. A lot of new things I had to learn and take it slow and start from scratch. It was humbling. And I was like four weeks on the road and very... Like four weeks having not trained is too much time off. To go back, I felt like a total piece of crap. Yeah. And I looked real bad and I felt like I looked real bad. That's a tough thing as you get older too. It's like, you got to catch me. Give me a couple days for repair for anything. I can do it. But do not catch me. If I've had four or five diet coaks and you want me to box or whatever. Bitch, I'm staying in the car. You know what I'm saying? Do you like too much aspect? Yeah. That's what it is, dude. It's like, I look at them dead bears. Because also my body style, my God-given body style is... I'm built kind of like a gingerbread cookie a little bit, you know? Like I'm sturdy. Bring up a good g-bread on me, daddy. It's seasonal anyway. I bet you can throw. You know what? I can survive, dude. I'll do okay. Put me... Give me a couple weeks of... That's how I'm built right there. Now, sturdy. I got a sturdy base on me. Yeah. You're like... Like that? I think that's... No, this one had a bad... This one might have been in a bad oven, but... Yeah. I got a little bit more frost in on me than that one, but... Yes, anyway, maybe the one that would make a perfect cookie, dude. But... Do you know what would be interesting? What if we made cookies of like people that have been on this show? And we saw it was like a fun... Like if you do part of it, it's like a fundraiser or something for moms or something. It's good. We eat each other's cookies. And you just get a batch of them or something. Yeah. You get to the batch of the Steven Wilson. You just bite my head off. I love that. If you're happy, you're awesome. You just get you a batch of them Steven Wilson's. Yeah. And she was head off. So that's pretty crazy. So Brandon Jinger's met you out there. Yeah. And a forest griffin met you out there. Yeah. And they gave me a tour of the whole facility. It's crazy. Oh man. It was like... I was a kid at a candy shop. Did they take you through like not just the gym part, but also the UFC building and stuff? Yeah. Yeah, I got to go into like the lunchroom and... Yeah. I was like, this is so nice. And yeah, like you don't... This is like the most dangerous lunchroom you'll ever walk into. Yeah. Like seriously, like... Oh, okay. Like everybody was so nice and so friendly. But it was like, you'll never walk into a cafeteria that could hurt you so bad. Yeah. Oh, even the line cooks will have like cauliflower. He's like, you want cauliflower? And you're like, oh, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm not the broccoli. Yeah, yeah, dude. Even like... Yeah, I think like the head chef in there last year, because like Brandon Roy Valos, they got some gags just in here. I'm being careful what I asked for in here. Yeah. That's hilarious, dude. Meta-berry casual evidence of social media harm US court filings alleged. Oh, yeah, this was it. This was about information. My last thing is this. Meta shut down internal research into the mental health effects of Facebook after finding causal evidence that its products harmed users' mental health according to unredacted filings in a lawsuit by US school districts against meta and other social media platforms. So, would that be information bias? Turn away research into mental health. In a 2020 research project, code named Project Mercury, scientists worked with survey firm Nielsen to gauge the effects of deactivating Facebook. According to Meta documents obtained via discovery to the company's disappointment, people who stopped using Facebook for a week reported lower feelings of depression, anxiety, loneliness, and social comparison. Rather than publishing those findings or pursuing additional research, the filing states met a call-dolph further work and internally declared that the negative study findings were tainted by the existing media narrative around the company. Privately, however, a staffer insisted the conclusions of the research were valid according to the filing. Is that user bias? I would say it definitely could be user bias, but I would actually have to see the research. There are so many other variables, like you want to know how many participants were involved. What's your statistical in meaning how many participants were there, therefore your bell curves going to be a lot more valid. You're going to have more statistical significance, the higher number of participants are involved in the research. For all we know, there's 20 people that they did research on Facebook. If they said we did research on 200,000 people, now you've got statistical validity. I don't need to see this research paper. One person saying that if there's user bias and then there's another person saying, no, the results are actually scientifically valid. That person may actually have bias because they're emotionally attached to all the research they did. There could be a user bias on top of a user bias. The user bias sandwich. Oh, I love that. It's the new bond made, dude. Bring it back up. I want to see a little bit more information on it. Let me see if it tells us. Because it is interesting to think that notice after only a week people were getting better. This is allegedly the full record will show that for a decade we have listened to parents research issues that matter most. It made real changes to protect teens. Go further, see. Okay, the allegation of metabaring evidence on social media harms is just one of the many in late Friday filing by Motley Rice, a law firm suing Metagougal, TikTok, and Snapchat on behalf of school districts around the country. What if we get in touch with them? That sounds like kind of an interesting lawsuit, doesn't it? Just to see like, what are they learning and what information have they learned? Broadly, the plaintiffs argue the companies have intentionally hidden the internally recognized risks of their products from users, parents, and teachers. I want to see the research. I want to see if they conducted it or if it was conducted by a second party or third party. That's going to be a huge part of it. I mean, Australia just recently did a social media ban. I saw that. Kids under age just 16, I believe. Why is the Australian government banning social media for under 16s? The government says it will reduce the negative impact of social media's design features that encourage young people to spend more time on screens. 10 platforms are currently included in the ban. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Threads, TikTok, X, YouTube, Reddit, and streaming platforms like KICK and Twitch. A study at commission earlier in 2025 found that 96% of children aged 10 to 15 use social media. And that 7 out of 10 of them have been exposed to harmful content. This includes misogynistic and violent material as well as content providing evening disorders and suicide. 1 in 7 also reported experiencing grooming type behavior from adults or other children. And more than half said, they've been the victim of cyber bullying. I think, oh, shit, I'm not even a child and all that's happened to me on there. Yeah. I'm a damn adult. Some action hurts. Yeah. But do we want to say how will it work or when they're imposing it? I just want to get that information out in this. Dude, go back up. It takes meta about an hour and 52 minutes to make a, to make $50 million in revenue. That's Australian revenue. That's crazy. Well, Australia's social media ban for children under 16 officially started on December 10th. So they're in it. If you're an Australian kid, I don't know if this is legal. I have kids call. But call and tell me honestly, what do you think? Do you think it's good? Are you pissed about it? What are the feelings right now? Hit me with a couple, hit the hotline, 985649503 and just let it drop, drop, and don't be some fake weirdo pretending with an Australian accent. Yeah. Who's obviously a pervert or whatever. We want real kids to call in. No, I mean, Australia, when it comes to science and research, they are very thorough. I went to school there for a year. I did, I did my junior year and like they have, like I went there for their science programs. The research programs are some of the best in the world. So if they've actually done proper research to back this up, I believe that it's probably valid science. And was that in Sydney? It was in Brisbane. Oh, yeah. That I was busy. And, uh, yeah. Dude, the Brisbane Lions, dude. Yeah. Yeah, watch them play. Oh, yeah. I love the Lions. Dude, the Brisbane Lions bring them up. And the Walla Bees. Oh, yeah, the Brisbane Lions do fucking legends, dude. Yeah. Bring up Mitch. There he is, boys. Class. Yeah. Dude, yeah, I love the Brisbane Lions, dude. I went over there and went out with Mitch had a good time. I love Australia brother. Yeah, it's great. And we get to miss it. I want to go back some hopefully next year. Um, did you find, or you're married? Yes. Okay. Is there a Steven Wilson III? No, there isn't. No, there isn't. No, I don't have any biological children. I have a stepson named Henry. Okay. I've been helping raise since he was about four years old. Oh, nice. He's my boy. And, um, yeah. He's pretty cool kid. He's a pretty cool kid. He's a pretty cool kid. He's such a great kid. I'm very, very blessed. What do you admire about him? Um, he's, well, he's so different for me in the best ways. He's, he's very, um, very intelligent and very collected and calm. Um, and very, um, I would say he's more ordered than I am. Um, you know, in a lot of ways, he's, he's got, I think, this incredible constitution about him. And, uh, he's, he's got a very calm constitution, which is not what I grew up around. Like I grew up around a lot of noise and a lot of chaos, a lot of energy. And, uh, he is, he's like, um, he's like a rock and a raging river that will not move. You know, and I just, I love that about him. And he's, he's a very strong and smart young man. Very much into Moe-Tai kickboxing. And, uh, we started in boxing and, yeah, he's, he's my dude. And my dad was, um, a stepfather, not just a father. He had, he, he remarried after my mother and a couple times. He didn't have the best luck with the ladies, but, uh, a couple of his wives had step children. And, um, and he really taught me how to be a good stepfather. I gotta say, well, not by teaching me, but just by example, like his faith was led by his works, not his words. What's one of the tough things about being a stepfather, kind of, that people don't really see or, they, they may see. And you may have your own, that you may have some specific thoughts about. Um, well, I mean, I was not just a step, I'm not just a stepfather, I was a stepchild. So I remember the perspective as a stepchild. So I go into my stepparenthood as a stepchild. Oh, okay. So I have something that a lot of stepparents don't have. I have like a really unique perspective of what it was like to grow up with step parent-a-vision. And the R&D. Yeah, I've done the R&D. I've had the experience. I've had multiple stepparents. I didn't just have, I didn't just have one set. You were a trial sample. I had like, yeah, I didn't, had a lot of variability. Variables, yeah. Okay. And I love this. So I got some good data there. And, uh, and one thing I just remember, and this was never a conversation. Um, my dad just loved, uh, his stepchild, like us. There was never like, I feel like a lot of stepparents, if they have biological children, and stepchildren, they will, black, well, I love you just like I love him. And they'll say that he never said that, that I can remember. He just did. That, that was what his, that's the lesson that I learned is that it has nothing to do with words, has everything to do with your actions. And, um, so I've really just tried to be the best stepfather. I cannot talk about being the stepfather. God, talk about anything that just makes sense. Just be. And, um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's tough. It's like, it's sometimes easier for me to love a stranger than it is. Like somebody close to me. I feel like in a weird way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, uh, familiarity breeds contempt. That's an old saying. Yeah. And, you know, the more familiar you become with somebody, the more contemptuous you can become. Oh, yes. And naturally, yeah. So like a stranger is without contempt because there's no familiarity there. And, uh, you know, that's, I guess, the, kind of the, the battle of love because the more, you love somebody, the more familiar you become with them. And, uh, I guess that is, I know. Like how do you balance contempt and love because contempt is going to kind of creep its way in or somehow? Presentment, something negative. There's something negative come in there. Yeah. The more and more you love somebody and, and, uh, you know, maybe that's just, you know, the darkness balancing out the light. But, you know, I, I think just acknowledging it and knowing that it's there is, it's really the big part of it because like the fear or the, the panic behind it is the lack of understanding behind it. Really fear is most of the time. It's the lack of understanding. Um, and fear sometimes they're standing there and you don't, it's like if you really looked at it for a bit, but sometimes I'll just feel a fear and react. I'll do that for decades. But that really looking, what's going on here? Yeah. What's really got me here? What am I written, you know, and sometimes just you could figure it out and you're, and you're free of it, you know, you can at least have a, see when it's standing there, you know, but I'll let a damn thing Michael Myers me out there forever. And I won't even go out there and realize that this is just a damn cardboard cut out of some old bullshit. Yeah. This isn't even fucking, nothing's even in this costume anymore. Yeah. And I've still been acting this way because part of me, I get something out of pretending that that's still real too. Yeah. I get an excuse, you know, I get to keep living my life a certain way when I pretend that that old boogie man is still new, you know, not saying that that happens a lot, but I'm just saying that that, that hasn't not been a part of my story at times probably and sometimes I didn't realize it. That's why I'd with the mind can do that. I mean, my dad took me deer hunting and I think that was the best thing he could have done for me. It's just the boxing, but you know, you can't, you deal with a lot of fear and boxing because you don't understand certain things, but I remember like, you know, when you go deer hunting, you go out, especially if you, if you morning hunt, you, you go out about an hour before sunrise into a pitch black woods and you'll walk a quarter mile into a pitch black woods and my dad would post me up against a tree. The shot going to my hand, not even a tree stand or anything, post me up against a tree and then he would go off about 500 yards out of the way because he'd have to be far away because I could shoot him or he could shoot me like you got to be, you can't be in range of each other's shot because we're shooting slugs. But I just remember like, okay, getting out there an hour before sunrise, it would be pitch black and he would walk me out to this tree and you can see nothing. Now, I got remember thinking like he would walk out here by himself all the time and I was like, man, that's crazy. And he would sit me up against a tree in the pitch black and it would just be pitch black and then he would go off into his tree and I would be there for at least 45 minutes in the darkest woods you can imagine hearing everything crackle and move around, shuffle through leaves. Is that a wild boar? Is that a cougar? He'd hope it was a hope he never was. It was like a boar or just a squirrel. Yeah, or a raccoon, like it had gotten shoes somewhere like a rabid raccoon. No, I just remember then the sun would slowly start to come up in the light. You would start to understand the woods that you didn't have understanding of like 45 minutes ago. And you'd start to see it and then it was like, okay, it become literally as the more and more light crept into the woods, the more understanding you got of the woods and what it looked like, what it was made of, what kind of trees, what kind of animals that were making all these sounds and by, you know, by the time the sun was up, there was nothing in that woods that was scaring you anymore. So it was really, you know, your fear was what you didn't understand and what you couldn't see. The woods did not change in the presence of light, the lack thereof. It was the exact same woods that it was 45 minutes ago because the squirrels don't care about dark and light. You know, they just, they live, you know, they're always up to some bullshitter, whatever it is. Yeah. They ain't afraid of the dark. Yeah. They ain't afraid of other men either. Apparently some of these young bucks I've seen a lot of squirrels. Gerbils. Oh, he catch me a little bit of this. Richard Gears, baby. Oh, those are the old days. They're out of this crazy broom. Yeah, no, we were just talking about that. Richard Gears gaze to put squirrels up his butter, whatever, and people like, what? But somehow that made it around society. No, I know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that was, that made it to my tiny little small town in Southern Indiana. Yeah. We were just like, what are we talking about? Now, I guess maybe that is the downside of social media is that those old bullshit rumors don't come up anymore because someone would, they would shoot them down immediately. It would, it would be all over TikTok and a day and then someone would be like, yeah, someone would be like, this is a bunch of bullshit. Yeah, and then be like, he's been able to lie to people. Yeah. My dad's a skydiver. Yeah. Like, oh, he'll be home in a minute. Yeah. Lie to people all the time. He was like, I'm a lawyer. They were like, you're in seventh grade. What are you talking about? Yeah. Whatever. Defense rests. Yeah. Do you have to? Yeah. You could become a doctor at like age 12. Yeah. Yeah. Like man, the world was wild. They just did whatever they want to in the 90s. Richard Gears, Jervels, children, doctors, do you have to be young, huh? Yeah. Say by the bell. Oh. I saw, I was at the UFC fights the other day and I saw, uh, Mario Lopez. Oh, wow. I think it looks, he looks younger than when he was, or like, he's got his mullet back. Like, a 100 percent. Look, what grade is this? He was like in seventh eighth grade. Now we're in like those Leotards and stuff. The Unitarbs. Yeah. Probe. He looks even better than that now. I don't even know what happened. He looks incredible. Yeah. He was like, yeah, he's every ethnicity too. It's like he's still Captain of the wrestling team. Oh, dude. Dude, oh, god. Yeah. Oh, geez. Sorry. But yeah, guy looks healthy. Whatever dude, I like women, but what I'm telling you is, um, we have, can we have kids of your own, you think? Um, I don't know. I'm pretty good. I think, you know, we talked about it. And we've also talked about adopting kids, but, but I, you know, I don't know. I've, um, I got a lot going on. I got Henry. I've, I've, I've read, I mean, I know what it's like to raise a child. I know what it's like to love a child. I know what it's like for a child to love me. I'm not missing anything. Got it. Um, so, um, but you never know. You know, you never know. You know, we could have a child. Um, that right now my life is very, very busy. And, um, I think I have other things that I'm supposed to be doing right now, rather than raising a baby at this particular moment in my life. And I have some, I have a lot of work to do right now. And, uh, maybe, maybe a child will be in the future. That's right. But, um, but you asked about nieces and nephews? Yes, I do. Um, I have quite a, like, all my siblings have children. And, um, yep, I'm wild Uncle Stephen that goes around the world singing his songs. They're a little bit, I'm sure they're like, what the hell is this dude? Because all my family like are still in my hometown. They work on cars and they're very, it's very much a small town life. And then my weird ass does what he does, but they love it. Oh, but they're so proud of you. It's cool. Oh, yeah. They, I don't think they know what to think about any of it. Because they've seen me kind of live multiple lives in front of them. That's been one wild thing to see because my siblings had their children very young, just like my, my parents did. So my niece, a lot of my nieces and nephews are older now so that they remember me when I was a scientist and that's all I was doing. And then they remember when I, what quit my science job and I was waiting tables and bartending and just trying to get a publishing deal. And then they remember the guy that got a publishing deal and was writing songs for other people and my dad recording them on the big phone and all that. And now there's this chapter. So they've kind of got to see their uncle go through multiple identities. If anything, I hope that it's been helpful for them to see that you're not stuck in any particular life. Like you can live multiple lives. You can do all kinds of things. You know, a man and I think it's important for them to see that, you know, life has chapters. It's not one chapter. You know, and you, you're writing your own book and you can make the chapters as long as you want. But there are only so many pages. And, uh, thank you. Well, thank you for helping us think about stuff, man. For giving us some of your music over the years, you know, I'd love to get together and we could talk again sometime. I feel like there's other avenues of things we could talk about. And sometimes I realize it's better, you know, to just get together and talk again sometime. Yeah. So that way we could go down different roads and think about other stuff. I think today it's been nice to just be talk about like, we have relate, like familiar relationships and how some things can influence you. And yeah, what it's like living like your father's dream out. Um, we never talked about the theory of evolution, but we can get to that next time maybe. Yeah, we can. I'll put a whole presentation together. Well, I'll do more and D while you're going. I think I might hit a pet and zoo or something while you're on and see if I get a little bit more research done, dude. Um, well, I gotta say I probably owe you money because I feel like I could have paid a therapist a lot of money. I've never had therapy in my life, but I probably do need it. Uh, haven't, but you said something that was so like insane earlier, um, about the quiet part, you know, about do you think, um, you know, you were quiet because you didn't want to affect the world around you. Yeah. I think I guess, like I said, that really rocked my world. So to speak, I'll be thinking about that for a long time. Um, there's certain things that we as songwriters say to some, sometimes that somebody and it, it kind of flips a switch or it makes them think about something they've thought about for a long time, totally differently in that. That was a paradigm shift and I thank you for it. So if anything, I walked away with a, an incredible piece of knowledge that I, like I said, I could have, could have never even found in therapy. And if I had it, it would have cost a lot of money. So thank you. Oh, you want, you're welcome. And no, you've already, you've paid me, you paid an advance, dude. So many times I've listened to your songs in moments where I needed some or the process something or just to remember my father, you know, like I, like, you know, one thing about my dad, I remember he liked to whistle and he had change in his pockets all the time. So if I hear a change, you don't hear change in people's pockets anymore, they used to be a thing, you know, like a old man, he'd have changed in his keys in his pockets. And now, like a lot of car doors are just auto entry and it took to your phone and people don't have change anymore. But that, like when I want to think about my dad, I'll like that's one of the first things I'll lay there and think about is the sound of change in somebody's pocket, kind of, you know. But that was his song. Yeah. That was his song. That was, like my dad always whistled. He always had a song in his head. He was always whistling a song or humming a song or singing a song. He, like, he was a song. Like, you know, he was either riding a song wave or just, you know, being a song without being one. Yeah. But, you know, like, you know, yeah, there was always like a sound to him. It sounds like your dad had the same sound. Oh, yeah. He was a joyous instrument. But yeah, if we think ourselves as a song, it's like, what song am I when I go into the room with people? And, you know, and you can be different songs. Sometimes you're a separate song. Maybe when it's just you by yourself or your music's kind of off and you're just sort of listening. Maybe it's like, what kind of song do I bring into the world, you know, and then do I just play the same song over and over again. And maybe I do that because I just, it's therapeutic to myself, you know, yeah, I don't know. It's, but it's been fascinating. Man, it's been fascinating to be a fan of yours. It's been fascinating to get to share your music with other people. I've done that a bunch to connect with them. Thank you. You know, tell my brother like, hey, man, I love this song, you know, and, and then he can call me back and like, I'll see why you like it, you know, and just things like that that can bring people closer together. So thank you so much, man. Thank you. You shared this music. My music a lot on your show and you talked about it a lot. I remember I was in it. I both loved it. Yeah. Well, everybody loves to talk about you behind your back, Steven. So I figured we would do it in front of you. Well, I'm grateful either way that anybody is talking about this music and you've, you've been an early champion. Oh, well, I don't know if that's true, but thank you, dude. And Evan Bartel's is another great guy. Have you listened to any his music? Yeah, absolutely. God. I mean, there's just some people that can just make me feel something, you know, and so thank you, dude. Thank you for helping us feel. Would you honor us and play a song or two for you, please? Let's do it. Let's go. Oh, all right. Let's do it. Let's do it, man. Ladies and gentlemen, Steven Wilson Jr. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Gary, these days, Ben, line in his bed, man. Working on a sink, car going on a decade. Strivels on drum, man, don't draw attention. I never really noticed what now that I mentioned. I never really noticed what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what now that I mentioned what d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d I'm saving all the money because I carry don't get boy And a lot of girls going by and they be anymore But they got the same nicotine corn out the course Time leaves town but the men in hand stays They're getting all out of boys and they carry these days And only you step back and run and takes it out of boys First being first leaking head Believe the leafy head Believe the leafy head I'm gonna stand on his day At a wage suspicion with the latter on the front porch A hard medication poured down with a drain pours He holds his left arm while his pair keep praise As anybody seen much again these days As anybody seen much again these days I'm not mad Yeah No, there ain't a lot of pours Ain't a lot of pours, ain't a lot of pours I'm not mad I need to do it like that It's just fun It's almost like the door closes on it or something Gary dies It's almost like the door closes on Gary It's Gary said It is in the son of Gary's out there It's not, I mean they were Gary Breed Dude, well they should have a... They should have a... A museum that has Gary's in it You know I always thought there would be a great idea For a Gary Busy Museum called the Gary Busy Ooh, I like that The museum, yeah He should have that I think so And you go in and it's just like a bunch of point break And merbilia Yeah And like just busy hands Yeah, a lot of good busy stuff He was in a... Like a two Yeah, a lot of movies and some of his cameos even does now could be in there Yeah Yeah, he like breaks the fourth wall I love that about him He looks at the camera You notice that like in movies Like he like looks at the camera I don't know if I know it very much But now that you say it He breaks the fourth wall It's a big existence of being human He does, yeah He shatters right through it He speaks in acronyms And uh... Ever reminds me of a rare name dude that I... Or Debbie Was it Debbie in the song? Debbie, yeah We had... What was our... Miss Robin Oh, yeah That was our lady at our kindergarten And I would not sleep I couldn't nap time or whatever So she started noticing And she let me go outside And watch her smoke Or kids And her hair... She goes if you can't sleep You can come watch me smoke And sometimes I was... That was your Debbie And sometimes I would need some sleep So I'd be like, I'm gonna sleep today or whatever But then probably two days I thought we could go out there And she could just... Tell me about her husband And stuff like that And her hair was kind of like this feathered sort of Kind of cut Yeah I feel like I think she'll be like a man But she was beautiful out of me She was probably one of the hottest She was the woman that would talk to me So she was stunning And it was incredible God, there was something like that Just to watch her Robin smoke Not the bird Yeah The human Robin Um... We talk a lot about your... Your quote I know it's not your quote But grief is only love that's got no place to go We talk a lot about that man On here we've mentioned a few times You think you could play that for us? I could Would you mind? Just a second for me to tune up for it Okay I'm gonna see you on the track I miss my father Hey And kind of pain I pray it on fate away For the ones Oh Gating me down a road Yeah, grief is only love That's got no place to go Come my great grandad in the ground On the ghost in my hometown You're the ones They find me down a road Yeah, grief is only love That's got no place To go Yeah, grief is only love So deal with the feelings you can't hide, God gave us our own. When we need to leave on my inside, I don't feel like crying. But I just keep crying, for the ones above. They're guiding me down a road. Yeah, I greet you as only love that's gotten all placed to go. From my great granddad and the ground, all the ghosts and mounds on you there. The ones that find me down a road. Yeah, I greet you as only love that's gotten all placed to go. Yeah, I greet you as only love that's gotten all placed to go. Yeah, I greet you as only love that's gotten all placed to go. Oh I don't feel like I'm But I just keep I'm full of Oh They gave me down a road The grief is only love But I got no place to go So I won't do the hurt And I got all And the only thing for certain is It's out of my control The grief is only love But I got no place to go The grief is only love But I got no place to go The grief is only love The grief is only love The grief is only love The grief is only love The grief is only love That's awesome man Thank you so much How we feel? It sounds great dude Yeah just thank you Yeah it's just nice Thank you Theo Thank you Theo Thank you Oh, I was talking all of them Oh dude He's never used for a fan of Ian here So he's gonna get him a Marston He's a life Yeah, it's what's going on dude Thank you so much dude You're awesome and I love it And thank you for sharing and helping us feel And making it okay for people to feel stop And yeah Yeah I think It's time to feel things because What else do we have if we ain't got feelings I think it's the only thing it separates us From the robots at this point Yeah so let's lean into what we got Amen lean into what makes us real Yes sir Stephen Wilson Jr Thank you so much brother Thank you God bless you all too Thank you Oh but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of mind I found I can't feel it In my bones I know But it's gonna take