Tony Rich

Hi, I'm Tony Rich with the Tony Rich Project and I'm here on On That Note with Sean Stockman. Welcome everybody to another episode of On That Note. This is the place where we speak a language we all understand and that is music. I am your host, Sean Stockman. And my guest today is a Detroit native who's established his singer-songwriter prowess while under the masterful tutelage of the world renowned, The Face Records, by writing timeless and heart-wrenching songs, not just for himself, but for the likes of Johnny Gill, a future touring mate, by the way. Tony Braxton, also my future touring mate and queen of the official tour featuring herself, new edition and Boys to Men, launching in January, 2026. Make sure you get your tickets if you don't have them, okay? It's going to be a hell of a show. And Boys to Men, yeah, I said that. And guess what? He's also written for Boys to Men as well. A lot of people don't know that, but we're going to get into it. He's been in the business for over 30 years and still creating beauty of all kinds to this day. He is a husband, a father, an artist. No, like a actual artist. Like, he makes stuff, like not just a singer. Yeah, yeah. Like he paints, you know, and all the other good stuff. A Grammy award-winning multi-platinum status recipient, ladies and gentlemen, please give it up for someone I haven't seen in years. This is my first time seeing this guy. We saw with the opening of the Grammy Museum. So that would have been 2000. 15 years ago. 2009. Cow. And we just kind of bumped into each other. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So there you go. This is the first time and he still looks amazing. Thank you. Mr. Antonio D. Jeffries, aka Tony Rich. What's happening, man? Oh, it's well. You look great. Thank you. You look absolutely great. Healthy. I am. Yeah. I feel it too. That's good. Yeah. That's good. It pays off. I mean, you know, I only eat plants. Okay. Yeah, I've been a medium for a couple years. What led you to that? Like, was it a lifestyle choice? Was it a health choice? Was it a, I need to do this because my doctor said I eat too much red meat. Like, what was it? So when I was 14, well, 13 years old, I started, I had my first job. I worked as a butcher in a police call. He's about to tell a very, very bastard, all you meat lovers, y'all might want to turn this off. No, no, no. I love a good steak. I started out as, I had my first job as a butcher. I would work down the weekends when I was in school and then during the summers, right? So I saw things that I couldn't unsee. So what I did was I decided, I didn't go cold turkey. I just said, okay, I'm going to let go of one type of meat per year until I get down to none. And that's, that was the process, but it had nothing to do with like, of course I love animals, but it wasn't, it wasn't about that. It was, I saw things and I said, okay, let me try this. Okay. I haven't eaten beef either with the exception of beef bacon. But other than that, like, like, you don't eat beef. I don't eat beef. I don't eat beef. I don't eat pork and I don't eat shellfish. I did everything in my power to convince myself that pepperoni was not meat. Really? How'd that go? It didn't go. I had to let it go. Yes, pepperoni is very much meat. Those were two hard things to let go of. Right. So again, live your life. But anyway, Tony Rich is here. And we're going to talk about what's been going on with you. First off, congratulations on your 30th anniversary of Dave's new album. Yes, coming up January 16th. That's a good man. Tony Rich project, right? Yeah. Yeah. Tony Rich project. So thinking back around that time, give us a, I guess a scope on who Tony Rich was 30 years ago. You know, it's funny, like my start was in Detroit, right? And I was, it was funny because I was a fifth member of a boy group, right? Oh, nice. But I was the songwriter. I had no desire to be out front. I only had that desire in my mind, right? But I was like, I'm not that crazy. Get on stage like that. But I write the songs and there was this guy who was like a quasi manager. He said, Hey, I got a meeting for you guys with John Sally of the Pistons. And I was like, why would we do a meeting with John Sally of the Pistons? He plays basketball. He said, No, he has a recording studio. So we go over there. John's always been in the music. Right. And we go over there. John comes walking in like a tall dinosaur as he always does. Yes. And I'm sitting in the back and the group's sinking or whatever. And John says, Hey, what do you do? I said, man, I just write songs. Like, I don't have no desire to do all that. He says, Hmm, okay, so meeting keeps going on. He keeps asking, What do you do? Like, and so he wind up picking me out of everybody to produce songs for it for the studio. And he was. And so while I was there one day, this guy from I forget this guy's name, he on the studio, he comes through with these two guys. He said, Hey, I want, Hey, John, I want you to meet my producers. He said, Okay, I want you to meet my producer, Tim and Bob. How about that? It was Tim and Bob, they were coming from Chicago, passing through Detroit. Yeah, because they're on their way to Atlanta. They're from Peoria. Yeah, exactly. So they only went to Atlanta. When they heard my music, they was like, yo, man, because like I had an NPC 60. I was the one of the only. It was me and Kern. I think I think Kern had one, somebody else, but that was the standard back. And so they came through, they heard my music, they love what I was doing. I like absolutely love what they were doing. And so they said, Listen, man, when we get down to Atlanta, because we're on our way down, and we're going to some meetings, when we get down here, we're going to hook you up. Yeah. I was like, Okay, I've heard that a million times before. And I had no reason to believe it really. And then John got traded to Miami Heat. So he was out of Detroit, we lost touch for a little bit. And then my mother, I'll never forget this day. My mom said, Okay, son, it's time for you. You got to get out on your own. I was 21 years old. I said, When mom? She said tomorrow. So holy crap, the day before 24 hours. But I've been there for three years from time I graduated high school. So I was on my grace period. So I said, Okay, so I'm trying to figure this out. So the day before I'm supposed to be kicked out of my mom's place, where do I go? I catch the bus to my girlfriend's house. Right? Not looking for a job, nothing, because I'd already decided that music is my thing. That's what I do. Right. So I go and kick it with my girlfriend for a minute. And then I'm leaving, but I need to get away home. So I had my friend say I called him, I said, Frank, I need to ride home. He says, Well, me and my brother and my sister were out, you know, filling out job applications. You want to fill out applications? I said, Absolutely not. I'm a musician, bro. I only only do music. That's how I get paid. Yeah. So they come and pick me up, drop me off at home. And then my baby brother, as soon as I walk in, he says, Hey, some guy named Tim called you from Atlanta? No, it's like, okay. So I said, so I'm just pacing your landline phones, no cell phones. So I'm just pacing waiting for him to call back because I didn't he didn't leave a number. Yeah, he calls back. He says, Yo, you know, I tell him, Yo, bro, we broke you up. I was like, we're hurt. And he said, Yo, say, hey, say hey to Dallas. And he puts Dallas Austin on speakerphone. So he said, Look, man, we're gonna call you right back. We heading over to this meeting. We'll call you right back like 20 minutes. Call me back in 20 minutes. And he said, this is all he said, yo T, play that flight real quick. That's that's what I used to call dope song. Yeah, play that flight real quick. It was a song called Just a Little. So I played Just a Little. And then I hear like a whole conference room for the people screaming. I'm playing a cassette tape over a phone speakerphone. And then I hear I hear Perry say, you want to come down to Atlanta? Oh, and I said, Yes. I said, when she says, we're going to try to get you down here today. But soon as tomorrow, if we can't get you today, the very next day, I flew down to Atlanta. Shout out Tim Kelly. Yeah, for being a real one. Yeah, like I think we've mentioned Tim and Bob like a few times on this podcast. Yeah. And you tried to call him one time. Yeah, we tried to call him. He was busy. He hit me later. He said he was in Chicago cutting some strings for something. So I don't know. But they are really the unsung heroes of this industry. They helped out a lot of people. And they made a lot of great music for a lot of great people, including boys to men. And this just is on brand for who these guys have always been and what they represented. So again, shout out to Tim and Bob. We love you guys, man. And for sure. Yeah, that's an amazing story. And the nuance of the time when people would actually listen to music in conference rooms and get excited. Yes. That was a weekly thing. Yeah. Like, I don't know if that happens in the music business anymore. I don't think it does. It's safe to say that it doesn't. Like when people actually went to work to a label and enjoyed it. I remember being in Motown and we would walk into the offices and you heard music. Right. You heard music. How about that? Right. Or a concept. Yeah. In a music business, in a music office, you heard music. And I remember years after that, I would go to a record label. Yeah. No music. Yeah. Just is dead. Quiet. Quiet. Wait. Yeah. Corporate. It's a music business. Yeah. Ain't nobody rocking. And mind you, it wasn't just Motown. It was other labels too. And it wasn't just R&B music. People would be playing rock music in one area. They'd play pop music in another. You would just hear music. It was energy. It was alive at record label. Yes. You know, so just hearing just that just gave me like all the feels of what it was like to be in the 90s. A lot of people tend to catch us in these nostalgic moments and think all these old dudes always talking about their music and all this other stuff. But it was a different feeling. It was different. It wasn't just about the music being better than today's music, which it is. Sorry. I'll argue with yourself. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It is. You know what it is, Sean. It was more time. Like I called LaFace University. Yes. And that's another thing too. There was a standard. Right? Yes. Like LA held everybody to a standard, especially I said like staff writers. You had to there was a level of healthy competition. Like when it came down to songs, I'm trying to think who I heard. I think it was Sting was talking about this. He was like, where's the bridges? Yeah. It was Sting. What happened to the bridges? You know, and it's like, I remember at one point, Tricky Stewart was talking about some songs that I wrote. And he was like, man, you're a master of writing those bridges. Because I understand what a bridge is. Yes. The bridge is like when you get to the bridge, it's like. Yeah. Break down the bridge. Yeah. When you get to the, so you got the chorus and everything, the verse and all that. But when you get to that bridge, it's like it's a departure, but it's still connected. And so when you come back after the bridge, when you come back to the hook, that same hook should sound much bigger because of that bridge. It's like you taking off, you're on the tarmac, you're on the runaway. Boom. That's the bridge, right? When you come back, everybody should feel much higher with the same chorus. Yeah. You know, that's, and I remember being in the studio when I did, when I wrote I Sit Away, which I originally wrote for myself. I was going to ask you that, like, was that a song that you penned specifically for us? Or was it just one of those in your catalog? No, what it was was that I was in the studio. By the way, I Sit Away is the song that Tony actually wrote for, well, actually ended up being a song for Boys to Man. It's on the two album. Yeah. Make sure you listen to it. Go ahead. And when we, when I wrote it, so just so you understand like my, the reason for why it's called I Sit Away, my father was a very, very lonely man, right? And that's what the song is about. But my whole first album, I was talking about different aspects of my father. But when I came up with that one, it was interesting because I wanted to channel all these different emotions about my father. And so when I wrote I Sit Away, I remember I had it on a cassette tape, a little reference tape, and I wrote down the Tony Rich Project. I would just write that on cassette tapes for tracks that I had for myself. Even the song that I did on Tony was actually a track that I wrote for myself. I had Tony Rich Project. And that's how I would make the distinction between when I'm working on stuff for other people and for myself. Wow. That's amazing. Because, you know, listening to that record, first off, a shout out to LA Reed, who knew that we were working on the two album and we were just about done. I Sit Away was pretty much the last song. Really? Yeah. I did not know that. There was pretty much the last song that we recorded for that record because we thought that we were finished. And LA blowing us up, yo, you guys got to hear this song, this gentleman named Tony Rich made this amazing record. And the first time we heard it was over his house in Atlanta. And I think that's where we met you for the first time. In Lococo? Yeah, I think so. And we heard the record, fell in love with it. We said, absolutely. You know, LA is in the studio. He bobbed his hair, you know, like, again, it was a different energy with music. So people got excited and we were like, hey, we love it. And then we ended up recording it where? Was it Doppler? No, we were in Lococo. LA studio. Because I remember when he came in, he said, this is what he told me. It was so funny. He said, look, I'm gonna just hang out. Yeah. Okay. Because they don't really know you like that. So I'm gonna just hang out with you just so they feel comfortable and you feel comfortable. And it was like, yo, man, that was like the biggest project I've been on at that point. So I want to tell you and you can tell the guys if I don't see them. For sure. It changed my life and changing my life changed my family's life. Oh, man. And I appreciate it. That's so much because one of the one of my biggest accomplishments in music will always be that I had a song on the boys to men to brother. Right. I'm saying, listen, you earned it. Yeah, but I know that. But still, y'all could have clearly said, no, we don't want to do that song. No, I could see you did it. Concerate of what people might think of us. Yeah. We actually are pretty open minded when it comes to music. And no matter how we might feel like about a person or whatever the case is, if the music is good, it's good. We want to do it. Period. And again, we didn't know you. I know. But we love the song. And that was enough. Yeah. That was a lesson for me, too. Yeah. It's like, it's like, wow, man. And then when I heard it, and it's funny because I was just playing for my wife the other day, I said, I want you to listen to my demo. And when the guys, you know, guys recorded it, and I was breaking down for her. This was so funny because I was I was breaking down for her. Why this is my theory why Sean sings certain parts and why Nate sings certain parts and why Y. Y. Y. does certain parts because it reminds me of this, this gospel group I used to work with back in Detroit. And so this guy named Chris Jones, Chris was the guy when it's time to hit that bridge and vamp out, give it to Chris. Right. And I was telling I said, that's Y. Y. Yes. I said, when you talk about like your voice, your voice and Mark Nelson's voice, I've always said voices that like they're focused on a purity of tone. And that takes me and connects me to commission. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A lot of times people have compared me to Mitchell Jones. Exactly. Yeah. And so I grew up hearing that. So when I heard you guys harmonize and heard you sing, I was like, I was just like hearing those elements. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. This is like, this is like a spicier version of commission. It became that like the formula, it just organically became what people know us for as far as that like almost like Nate bringing down the balls, the point guard. Yeah. Passed it to me. I set up the alley you and why you donks. Yeah. And that's pretty much how it's always been. Like and obviously when Mike was in the group, Mike was kind of like that center. Yeah, exactly. They kind of kept everything in a certain type of nuance. So yeah, I mean, that was something that developed just naturally. It just even when we formed as a group, the reason why it blended so well and so quickly is because we were all in vocal class together. So everybody knew each other's vocal prowess. Everybody knew who can do what. That's pretty cool. So no one stepped on anybody's toes. Like Juan knew what my role was and I knew what Juan's role was. Yeah. He knew what Nate's role was and that whole thing. So that's why it blended the way that it did. Yeah, it was great teamwork. Yeah, every part was in place. Yeah. And no one tried to overstep or anything like that. You know what I'm saying? So but again, man, it's a great record. And again, please guys, if I know a lot of people listen to the two album for the hits that I'll make love to use and Water Runs Dry and Bender Need. Those are great songs, but there are also a lot of great ones on that album that made the two album, I believe, so successful. It's just a perfect album. I think so. I think it's close to perfect anyway, as I guess a project could be. Yeah, Sean, do you guys ever perform the song? You know what? We did a few years ago, we were celebrating the anniversary of the two album. And we sang a couple of the deep cuts. Like we sang a song that Tim and Bob produced called Trying Times that Wanyé wrote with the guys. We kind of went into those elements and sang the records that people that were probably wanting to hear the popular ones were kind of looking at us like, what the hell was that? But like this is kind of the dichotomy of being an artist. A lot of times you want to sing stuff that might not be the popular song. Yeah. But we like it. So I've always had that challenge, right? Because when I first started out, everybody knew nobody knows, right? Because nobody knows was so massive that even when I followed up with a second single, it just wouldn't touch it, right? So what I would do when I would perform, I would have to strategically place nobody knows the right spot. And I developed this thing as a live performer where I would have this conversation with the audience and I would say, listen, you may not know all these songs, but let me tell you a story. And I would set up the song they didn't know I would set up a story to tell them about the inspiration of it. And it would captivate them. Grab their attention. And then I would get to nobody knows and I said, okay, now I'm going to do a song that everybody knows. And then I just start playing it and I just play the chorus for like five minutes and they just lose it, right? But I learned at that point in time to capture people's attention with stories and the performance of a song, whether they knew it or not. Well, that's all I know, really. Yeah, it's hard these days, because again, and the reason why I say that 90s music in that era was so much better. It's not just the music, but it was the experiences that went with the music. They no longer exist. So it's harder to keep people's attention now in certain circumstances like this, because everybody just wants to hit. Everybody wants to hit. It's like crack. You know what I'm saying? Like everybody just want you know, I just I just want the song. I want the song and but you can listen to the song at home. Yeah, I'm gonna give you the song. But I want to give you an experience first. Right. It's like rushing to have sex with a person before you got to know them like everybody's on that instant gratification. They just they just want the cookie now. We're supposed to let's let's talk, let's let's court, let's get to know each other. It'll make the experience once we reach that threshold so much better. And the industry doesn't, it doesn't cater to that anymore, which is why we use to say this thing in the studio. LA would say, All right, let's just let it bake for a while. Yeah. Like if we're mixing something, we just like let it just just sit on it for a while. Even I've learned that with with vocals, just the whole approach to making the songs. It's like, I like I still take my time. Yes. I take as long as it's supposed to take like yes, some songs come fast, but some you got to nurture them a little bit and massage it here and just like, you know, I'll do this thing where I'm working like I'm working on my eighth and ninth projects right now. And but what I do is I go back and I listen from all albums. And what I'm listening for, I'm checking myself. Yes. I'm listening to see like, okay, am I, where am I growing? Yes. Am I am I stagnant here or am I losing quality here or have I been improved? Like I'm, I'm checking myself as a creative to make sure that I'm being true to where I am at that particular time in my life. And what I'm talking about, but also making sure that my skill set is up to par and what to be expected. That type of discipline isn't promoted anymore. Yeah, I know. Like it's not about taking your time and and perfecting the jump shot. True. It's literally just throw it in the air and and from the from the perimeter and let it drop opposed to kind of going in a little closer and working on that 15 footer or working from the wing or whatever you know what I'm saying? Like, like, this is what I mean. This is what I mean, guys, when I say that the 90s was better. It had a process of the slow bake. Yep. Learning and understanding what you're doing. Understanding what it is that you're learning. Exactly. It's, you know, it's, it's not just getting the information, but understanding why you're getting it. Exactly. And that's why you, as you mentioned, LaFace University, it breeded that. That's why LaFace is still it's a legendary label because it created the most amazing sonics. Yeah, we will ever hear in our lifetime. Because there was a standard. There was a standard. The standard was set and it's like, you know, if you're on LaFace, you couldn't have, you couldn't put music out that wasn't up to par. That's right. Just wasn't going to happen. Yeah. And it's funny when you said that, when you mentioned earlier that y'all thought y'all were done and then LA was blowing you up. Yeah. I remember Tony thought she was done on a, on a secrets album. She thought when she thought she was done, she did not have, I'm break my heart. She did not have, you're making me high if I remember correctly. And I, because I remember LA and I met up with Tony and we were just going over the songs and then, and then at some point she went and got those two songs and then there it was. Who wrote on break my heart? Who wrote that? That was Diane Warren. Diane Warren and David Fawcett produced it, right? Yes. Yeah. And then Bryce Wilson did the Diane Warren. Hey, Diane, listen, if, if, because we know you bought baby faces built on the hollow. Yeah. She remember Edmund Towers? Oh, that's hers. No, no, not Brandon's way. Edmund Towers. That's right. That's why he is selling Brandon's way. Well, thanks to seven million or something, but she has Edmund Towers. That's right next to the Hotel Cafe. Yeah. Diane, if you're listening or watching, we would love to have you on the couch. Like I'm just going to say that Diane Warren, if you guys don't know, is the songwriter. Yeah. It'd be good to talk to her. Period. I just want to say that. Like I have so many stories that I won't tell on camera, but they're great stories that no, no, they're great stories. They're not negative, but they're great stories about how, how amazing Diane is. Let me tell you. Like, I'm telling you, like, like it's sick. Okay. She's written, she's your favorite songwriter's favorite songwriter. Yeah. Period. She has written a song that you love that you did not know that woman wrote. I guarantee you. What's the one maybe people don't know she wrote that she wrote? I don't want to miss a thing. But Aerosmith. Oh yeah, that's right. That was a massive record. Yes. She wrote the Brandy record. Have you ever loved somebody? Yeah. You know, it's crazy that you cry. That's a beautiful record. Yes. Like, like, she's diverse, bro. You remember that year she had one song on two different country artists and they were nominated the same year? What year was that? That was it was Trisha Yearwood and the other other is another artist. Another, I think it's Leigh Ann Rimes, I think it was. You understand the same song though. No, she's the that. She didn't have a genre. She could just write. She wrote Aerosmith. Don't want to miss a thing. She had a she had a Diane. Right. And then the producer was there. The producer of the song was where where it goes with genre goes into. She's that fucking bad. Yeah. You know, she's top five. Period. Like straight up like so Diane come through. We would love we would love to talk to you. But anyway, man, we haven't even asked you a question really. Okay, okay. Like, no, no, it's good. This is this is great. This is great because we kind of went back because I like to do a segment called we were going to go back way back back in the time. Yeah, we went 30 years. Okay. Your first album, words. Yeah. Right. We're gonna go back even further. Okay. Let's go to Motown. Okay. Coming up. What were the songs? What were the songs that you listened to as a kid, let's say around 10, 11 years old, that made you realize that this is going to be a love affair. Okay, the voices that I remember the most would be Al Green, Stevie Wonder, you know, all the Motown sound, right? Because where I lived in Detroit, we were right around the corner from Motown Museum. Sure. So I remember hearing a lot of that. And then and then there was this moment where enter Prince that changed it for me. He always entering in places. It was Prince that made me want to create music. Yeah. Because when I watched him and I heard him say that he he had created these songs, he played all the instruments and all that stuff. And I was like, wow, that's that's pretty interesting. Because I had not heard any artists say that at that point in time. So I wanted to mimic that type of thing where I'm having my hand in on it on all those different levels, right? Yeah. And then it was Tina Turner and Bruce Springsteen, then I said, Sting and then I started like, it starts open up, start to open up because and it was because I knew that Prince had this this very extremely creative courage to just go into any genre you want it. So I started listening to any genre I want. And so that was that was pretty much the landscape of the music I was listening to, I was listening to anything that sounded good to me. And then I would really, really listen to it. And then I had this thing that I would do sometimes, you should try it. It's really, it's really interesting. Like I was listening to a switch song. And there was this, they'll never be. Okay, so there's a song, if you listen to that song and just hone in on certain keyboard parts, it will blow your mind how often you hear this particular part. But it's so I do that, like when I love a song, I will just I will like, I would like listen to the stems basically. Yeah, sure. But just by honing in like, I'm gonna just listen to the bass line. Yeah, I love doing that. Well, let's go back though, because you mentioned Prince and you mentioned his ability to play multiple instruments. Don't you do the same? Like how do the instruments do you play? I don't play a whole lap. I play what's your goal to? Okay, my so my my first instrument was guitar. But once my fingertips started to call us, I couldn't take that pain. And so I look at my older brother, I say, yo, man, when you show me how to play those keyboards, he says, I'm not showing you anything. Nobody showed me, you can watch me how about that? So I just start watching them. And then I started playing keyboards. And I got I got really, really great on keyboards, like much better than on guitar. And then after that, I picked up bass because I just like the way the bass sounds. So I learned to play bass by mimicking, watching other bass players. And then I started to pick up on guitar again. And then I dabbled with cello. Wow. And then I picked up I picked up is some point I was playing harmonica like crazy. But all that I want to learn how to play, I was doing all this. Are you ready? No, I did not. I was doing this all I was doing is in all in studio. So when I perform on stage, yeah, I'll play I'll play keyboard. That's the that's the instrument I'm most comfortable playing on stage. I won't play it. I won't play guitar on stage because I don't feel that comfortable. I don't play that often that well to be that great at it. But I probably play bass better than that. But it's like it but it's all all of these things are my tools for when I'm putting songs together. So like the way I'll layer my guitar parts for like when like when I'm in in studio is that's that's what it's those are my toys. Okay, but but I do that because I knew that Prince did that. Yeah, that was it. I was like, let me dabble with these things and see because once you know one instrument, it's just all about knowing how okay, how do you navigate it? That is true. That is true. Like when you when you get the understanding of just one, a lot of times it's amazing how it can kind of melt over to another instrument. And you just have a better understanding. What's the easiest one to entry level into if you don't have any musical ability? Yeah, I'm asking for myself. Yeah. You know, Brian, it really depends on your skill set and your dedication. Yeah, that's it. Like if if if you say for example, if you love the way a piano sounds, you're going to do whatever it takes to get some sound out of the piano. Right. If you love guitar, if you're a cello, if you love a frickin piccolo, whatever, right, you're gonna devote your time and attention because it's like anything else is like a sport. I know your athlete. So it's like, really, it's about how much you love it. Yeah, if you love it, you're going to learn it. But see, there's that natural ability playing a sport, right? Like I can pick up anything. I can snowboard, ice hockey, anything. That's your natural gift. Gift. There are some people that have a natural musical gift. There are some people that don't, but they still develop. So for somebody who doesn't work, like if I was going to tell someone to play a sport who didn't have a natural ability, I would tell them, I'd probably tell them to start with soccer. Soccer, because soccer, as long as you have a little bit of foot coordination, you can you can at least get the basics down. Now see, to me, soccer is a hard sport. What to be really good at. The simplicity of soccer, though, when you think about baseball, you have to do a lot good. You have to be able to throw a ball, catch a ball, hit a ball, ice hockey, you have the elements of being on skates and a stick, right? Maybe basketball would probably be in the same element of it's real simple football. Really hard. You got to do a lot of things. Well, you got to be able to run, you got to be able to tackle, you got to do a lot well. But like with music, like someone that asked me that once, it's like what instrument, I said, well, it depends on what your aim is. Like if you want to go into like music production, then I would say learn keyboard. Yes. Why? Because you can trigger a lot of songs from the keyboards as well as play. And then also what, but I also said this, I said, but when you get off into that, sometimes what happens is you'll get like these guitar samples. And what happens is if you don't know that instrument, you're going to play those samples wrong. Right. Because you're going to be too high. Right. Or if like if it's a cello sample, yeah, you're not supposed to be in the violin register, cello is a lower instrument. You got to know how you got to know how you play a guitar or how a guitar is playing. In order for the sound real. Yeah. So yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Because I would do that with drums. I remember on my first album, I was like a woman, LA was he it's this apart that he would always freak out over because he said sound like sound like a real drummer. And that was just from my knowledge of how drummers play. Yeah. So when so when there's a Tom role, you're not sticking to hat. Right. Right. Right. Right. So you just got to know drop drop the hat when you do that, then it'll sound more realistic. So I guess to answer your question, Brian, because start with a tambourine. Yeah. And a triangle. And then and then you can grow. You know, just stick to sports. But I always tell you that I love the keys probably the most that and guitar. But I tell athletes like it'll help you to learn an instrument. Yeah. One, it's cathartic. It's therapy. Like when you're getting hit around all day, a lot of times the things that can soothe you the most is being able to sit at a piano and I don't care if it's the ABCs. But it totally makes your mind focus on what you're doing. The acoustic. It's literally you literally forget like you're not thinking about your day. You're not thinking about anything that happened when you sit down at that piano or that guitar and you're playing. That's all you're thinking about. Like the video you posted about the guy playing I had the tiger for the tigers. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's this gentleman that I follow. Yeah. I forget the name of the the the the IG page, but English guy, I think, and he plays guitar for animals. And you can actually see this is why music is powerful. Yes. Like he's played for elephants, tigers, lions, bears. Oh my. Like he's he's he's he's he's played for everybody, right? Or everything. And you literally see how the music affects the animals. Calms them. It calms them. But I have the tiger for tigers. That's pretty funny. And that and that lion was singing with them. Yeah. The lion would like it was weird. It was so crazy. But but it that just goes to show you how impactful music can be to a spirit. That's true. Like it literally vibrates inside of you that can soothe you. So that's why I say, Brian, I'm I was joking, but I'm dead serious. To learn an instrument for you is great because it can calm you. It can help you focus on on nothing else but the sounds that you're creating. And it creates new neural pathways. Yes. Because you're making your you're allowing your brain to do something different. Yes. Like it's amazing. Like when like when I sit down at my workstation and I sit there, you know what I start with? Silence. That's Quincy Jones once said music is mostly silence. And if you're going to add anything, make sure it makes sense. So when so when you take sorry, and this is so was interesting when you listen to a song is that there are moments of silence. Yeah. And I love those moments. Me too. You know, I believe that when it with a song is the voice is not the only thing that creates the melody. Yeah. So I was an instrument. I was talking with my friend Neil, you know, Neil Polk. Of course. Yeah. So Neil, me and Neil would talk it. And I said, I was telling about these, we were just talking yesterday. And I said, man, I was, I got this song on one of these records, man. It's like, it's, I'm so stuck on the instrumental that I can't hear anything like lyric wise. It's a hook and a track. But the guitar, the guitar work on it is so it's driving melodically in a way where it's just like, I don't, I don't think of voicing. He said, man, just leave an instrumental. Exactly. But that's someone from that era of time. I've known Neil. He was my first one. My first engineer. I've known him as long as I've been in the business. Been a long time. Yeah. Shout out to Neil Polk. That's my black Buddha right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's amazing. Yeah. He's amazing. Yeah. So yeah, it's like music does so much. And again, mentioning that one gentleman on IG and not just for humans. Yeah. But again, it's proof positive that music definitely soothes the savage piece. Like it can really put you in a different mode. So that's why, again, I take a offense when I hear artists talk about music just being a hustle. Or it's just this or it's just that. Where you got to understand your sounds manipulate souls. It's true. Whether you want to admit to that or not. Like we talk about it. We've talked about it in podcasts. Like people have a workout playlist. People have a love making playlist. People have a dinner playlist, a meditation playlist, whatever, because music sets the tone for whatever it is that you're doing at that time. And it can be used as a weapon too. And it can be used as a music is magic. It's like sorcery. It is sorcery. When you think about it can be it's like when a person can hear a song. And they are transported back to a time. Yes. I know me. So there's certain songs you're going to hear it at the air smells like it did back then. 100%. Same. I know exactly what you're talking about. So when you think about that, and then I wonder, I was just having this conversation yesterday, who raised their hand and said to tech companies, hey, we people in the music business, we need help creating music. Oh boy. Who said that? That's one of my questions actually. Man, me and my brother have this debate all the time because I'm like, I don't get it because this art form was not suffering from a lack of creators. I know. Yeah, it wasn't. It still isn't. It still isn't. It's like there's people like, I enjoy picking up instruments. I enjoy walking in my room and looking at my guitars laid out and my keyboard and everything that I use, my flutes, all this stuff. Like the same way I like seeing, like walking into my apartment and I got like 20 empty canvas because I'm like, oh, I'm about to put some paint on those. It's like, I don't get what's going on with the dabbling of the music business right now. Well, let me ask you. I don't understand it. Well, let me ask you because AI as you know, is an extremely hot topic. Yeah. You know, specifically in the crafting of songs and lately for many, the usage of creating songs without having any prior experience. Or expertise in music. You've been expressing how you feel, but please extrapolate because there was one particular young lady that has, I think, a number one billboard hit right now. She's an AI artist. It's an AI artist. And... She's a for Grammy too, right? I think so. Yeah. Now, this is interesting because she did an interview, the creator of the AI artist. The artist's name is Ania Monet or something like that. Right. Yeah. I think it's Anaya. Zania Monet, whatever. And the person that created the artist seems like a nice young lady who created her basically uses a particular app. I don't want to give the app any shine, but a particular app that she puts her poems into the app, creates the type of song that she wants, writes it in detail, and three minutes pops up. This beautiful voice comes out of it and it's a song. As a beat and everything. Everything. And... So the girl's a poem writer. That's her thing. Yeah. She's... She can't even sing. She can't sing. The poetry is her thing though. Poetry. Yeah. But she does not sing, has no ability to sing, and she has a number one song. That's amazing. On billboard. That's a hustle right there. That's a hustle. Like, you know, and a lot of people might feel a way about it. But it's the marketing of it too, where they say anybody, now anybody can create music. I wish I could. Like, bro. Try to add that'll make me be able to hit a 400 yard home run. Maybe I do have a future music shop. I'm happy, man. You do. And, but see, so you expressed it, but how do you feel about these types of wares that are being used in the industry? And do you think it spells the end for organic creativity or can it coexist? I think it's going to coexist because there are people that have an interest for it to do so. I don't think it's going to turn off people that really create music. You mean from a financial standpoint? Yeah. Because when you think about it, when you think about like Spotify, that's not owned by a musician. No. So people that create these technologies, the end game for them is to make money. You see, when you think about streaming, it's like for someone to tell you, like I remember back when, when two, the two album came out, right? As you all were selling records, we were all rooting for you all to sell records, right? Because we were all a part of the project. Yes. Right. And so it was nobody was sitting back like, oh yeah, boys and men that stream like 175 million times and nobody got paid. That's crazy. When you think about it, I told somebody about it. I had a royalty statement come in where I had one of my songs, it was like a four minute song, full play, it's like 175, like 1000 streams, $8.08. But then I had a one piece of music that played for 30 seconds on the animal planet, pit bulls and parolees, because I do music for film and television too. 30 second, one time, $150. So that's why I'm saying that with the whole thing, with the AI thing is going to coexist. I don't mind you being at $150.08 on those two projects. No, no, he's saying the one, it was like eight, how much was it? The first thing. It was like, it was one song that streamed for 175,000 times, they paid me $8. Eight dollars. $158 bucks, that's still. No, no, $150 for a 30 second spot. Yeah, 150 for a 30 second spot, opposed to 175,000 streams. I know, he got ripped off on both is what I'm trying to say. But the point is, is that the streams, you're really getting screwed. Right. Like you're getting screwed, like the stream company. It almost makes me not want to stream music anymore. No, it's tough. Yeah. Because unfortunately, yeah, it's the only way for people to really hear it and to consume music now. And unfortunately, This makes me sad though. No, it's a sad situation because a lot of songwriters, like I mentioned this in previous podcast that you could actually make a living back in the day off of just being a songwriter. That's right. Like really good living. Like nice house, nice car, dying warrant. You talked about babyface, dying warrant. Yes, yeah. You didn't have to be an artist. You didn't have to necessarily be in the forefront to make a bunch of money. You could be an unknown. Shit, Gaga did it for years too. Exactly. Now to make a lot of money in music business, you got to perform. Yeah. That's the one way that you're going to, you're surely going to get paid. It's the only way. It's the only way. Let me ask you that. Let me ask you this. Is there a way for this thing to be turned around at all? Is there a turning point? You mean like farce with the AI stuff? Well, just to where musicians and artists and songwriters, producers can find, because even when we look at radio, which is where I came up and we talked about listening to music in the conference rooms and mix shows and having the artists come down and breaking the new records, that's gone. That doesn't happen. Even the radio stations are dying. How does the ecosystem revive itself? When you first got into business, did you have this experience where once you started to, once the longer you were in the business, then you start to really see, like you start to notice that, wait a minute, everybody in this business is not in this for the same thing. 100%. They're not. That's when you started feeling like, okay, who's trying to stab me in my back? It's one of the reasons, Tony, why me and my guys, when we first got in, green as hell. Just hopeful and rose-colored glasses to hold nine yards. It's only when that happened that we started to develop the chip on our shoulder. I remember you mentioned that at the Grammy Museum. Yes. When you talk about, like you said, man, we had to eat some humble pie. Yeah. And you told me about the mechanical bull story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Like, but that was after we found out that notion that you just mentioned that everybody wasn't in it for the same reasons we were in it for. And you almost, your bubble is completely bursted because you thought one thing and then you realized that the industry isn't exactly the way that you expected. No. And people that you felt like you can trust, you can't. And the people that said that they had your back don't. Exactly. And the people that said that you were supposed to make a certain amount of money, you ended up didn't make it to making that certain amount of money. And you ended up finding out that they made the money made the money instead, or you find out that people actually stole from you. Exactly. Like, did you don't find out till later, it really develops a callus. That's right. And, and again, I'll be the first to tell you that a lot of the things that we might have done that were met and considered being an asshole or whatever. It had a, it had an origin. Right. You know, the reason why certain things, we took on certain attitudes and why we said certain things or did certain things came as a defense mechanism. Because we realized that, especially with my group, at one point we felt like all we had was us. Which is true. We couldn't trust anybody else. There was no one else to trust. The people that were closest to us were screwing us. The people that were supposed to be our friends, we find out that they had ulterior motives and all those other things. So you develop a sense of, you just defend yourself. Like it's survival after a while. Like, and anybody that kind of tries to come into that circle, you're like, who the fuck are you? Right. You know what I'm saying? What do you want? What do you want? What do you want from me? What do you want? You know what I'm saying? I'm just trying to take it out the way. You know what I'm saying? But anyway, man, we can go, listen, we might have to have a part two with Tony. Because I think I asked you three questions on this iPad here. We got time. Let's keep going. We're good. Okay. Well, how about this? Let's switch gears a little bit. All right. You got a company called the Tony Rich Creative. Yes. Seems your focus is art pieces. Well, the Tony Rich Creative is sort of like, just in line with the Tony Rich Project. So the Tony Rich Project in music is basically me, the songwriter, producer, the artist, performer. And then with Tony Rich Creative is just like my music and my art kind of falls underneath that. So with my fine art, which I've been doing art, as long as I've been doing music. I was about to say, like, how long has this been? Because this is my first time actually, you know, just kind of stalking your page. Like I didn't realize that you were into art. I was doing it because that was my first creative expression was art. Because my father was a visual artist and a musician. And but growing up, I always saw his pictures around the house. So I knew I had that talent. And then so what I was doing while navigating through the music business and making all those discoveries we just talked about, the thing that gave me sort of like, that was like therapeutic for me through those periods of time was to paint. So because I'm, you know, we're in the creative, you're creative in the music business, but you're dealing with that business aspect, which can put a cloud over the creative part. But then with with the art, I wasn't in the art business. I was just painting at home. I didn't really start, I didn't start selling art until once I moved back from Australia. And then I started selling art and I started really putting the focus on that as well. Because the approach to how I paint is very much the same as how I write songs. Who's your inspiration? Art wise, like who do you? Because we all have, I guess, a muse, so to speak, as far as like what you see from other art pieces or art creators and possibly applying it to your own style. Oh yeah. So when I when I see different artists, it's sort of like when I hear other musicians. And it's certain, you know how like you hear a song and you think to yourself like, man, I wish I wrote that song. Oh, I wish I was singing that song. I'm the same way when it comes to art. And so there's my friend Anthony Liggins. He's he's in South Beach, but originally out of Atlanta. And it's funny because he was a musician first, the intern artist. And so his work is very inspirational because you can see the you can see the music in his in his art, you can see the the tapestry of it because he used to make clothes as well. And then there's another artist that I just came across the other day. Well, a while back, but I saw one of his pieces in the mall here. But I got I can't remember his name because he's he's very rather new to me. But when it came down to like what I was creating, like what kind of art, I would look at all these different artists and think like, I like that, I like that, I like that. But they're doing that. Yeah. So it's like, I got I got to figure out something else. So what I did was, as I would work on a piece, I would as I would call it, I would fuck it up. And then I said, but the fix is going to be better, which the fix always is right. So because you have to like with art, you have to like, respect the chemistry of the materials that you're using. Because sometimes some some things are just going to happen. You have no control over it. And but what I love about the visual art in doing that work is that when I'm in that zone, I don't even hear anybody else. And I but I but it was funny is while I'm painting, most of the time I'm listening to Bob, Bob Marley. I don't know what it is. It just I love listening to painting. Yeah. But I love to speak. Yeah. Yeah. But I love I love that. And it's like, it's just it's a it's a great revisit to to my very first creative love of art. And I'm just now doing it on a business level now. And I said, Listen up. Huh? That means you. Yes, you. We know you're pointing at yourself. When it comes to party power games, we've got a place made for all sorts from the experts to the drama queens. It's me, the JC, the finance bros. Look at those stocks, lads. We'll stick with slots. It's what we're good at. And not forgetting you. Yes, you, the one listening. Because at party power games, we've got all sorts of games for all sorts of trickles. eligibility rules in terms of conditions apply. Please come by responsibly. 18 plus camera where. What is the I guess you could say the the approach? Like when you see a blank canvas? Yeah. Where do you begin? Like where where where does it start? Like as far as the the finished product, no one knowing where you started. Like what right? Where does it start with an with an art piece? Okay, so like for me, a blank canvas is inspiration in itself. Because if I if I see a blank canvas, I want to put paint on it. But sometimes I have these and I love and I love when I do this because I set myself up to to mess up these paintings and then I'll fix them. But is when I have an intention as to how I think I want this piece to look. Because what I've come to understand is not going to look like that. It never does. Right. It changes because things happen. Like I have this this this series that I do this that I call the legacy series, where it's very minimal colors, black, white and red. And then on one side I do this collaging technique where on one side of the like I'll take an image. Like let's say I take a photo of you, right? This is one photo. And then I'll have many other photos. But I placed in all these other photos in one part of the body. And when you look at it, it's like you got to look into it because the images are something to read into. But I love those processes start with like the canvas is blank. And I'm trying to see what I can see on it. Or there was one time I did I did this one piece where I had it was I just had a bunch of collaging and then I just I put Indian ink over it and I'm just sitting in just and I was like for hours just staring at it. And then I saw it. I started to see I said, Oh, this is a woman here. And then I was able to go in and sometimes sometimes you can erase things and it reveals something. And then it's just that the layers I love layers to yeah, yeah, it's like music. Yeah, you know, so is there a certain size of canvas you like to work with or is it just very depending on your mood or I don't necessarily I don't work on a lot of small pieces. I like bigger pieces. Like like a 48 by 60. That's you know, because those are easy to ship. You know what I'm saying? When you get bigger than that. That's like, okay, now you got to get a crate, you know, oil paintings that you do. I work with acrylic acrylic. I used to work with oil oil just takes too long to dry. Sometimes the oil painting can take a year to dry a year. It stays wet for a minute. Yeah, because the oil has to dry out. Holy crap. Yeah, so I've had that happen. And I was like, man, I got to switch over. So I switched over to acrylic acrylic can drive really, really fast. Okay, like in 45 minutes or less. Nice. So if you know, so when you're layering is good. Yeah, you know, well, you made an art piece I saw which I found interesting called balance of the Genesis. Oh, yeah. Do you remember what that because from what I saw, it looks very three dimensional. The geometric one is like some of the elements of it pops out. Yeah. Like what inspired you to create like what was the inspiration behind that? Like, are you inspired by? I think what I want to ask is, are you inspired by current events? Like what inspires you to create the pieces? How would you explain, for example, balance of the Genesis? So, well, what it is is that with that with that piece, I was working on those two different ones. And I went through this process, because those pieces actually have under the under the paint is actual beach sand. Right. So I went to the beach, scooped up all this sand. I was like, I'm gonna try something just see what happens with it texture wise. And so I was doing that. And then I had like these geometric, like the the golden ratio on that. That's what that one is. It's the golden ratio like three different kind of like this. And but what I did was I had these little thin pieces of tape. So when you see those white lines, yes, that was tape there. And I just peeled it back. So I had to literally go in and cut those little pieces of tape. But I like doing stuff like that. I like to dig a hole with a painting and make my way out of it. You know what I'm saying? Right. I love that. Because then I'll know then I can look at it and be like, okay, I know that there's layers here. Because I can see it. I can feel it. And one of the things I do before I start a piece is and even throughout working on a piece, I'll rub the canvas. And I remember my son said, Dan, why you do that? I said, it's energy, son. I'm connecting with this fabric. I'm about to put something on this fabric. This fabric needs to work with me. I need to work with it. And so I'm just getting to know it. You know, and so he he's like, okay. I'm gonna play my PlayStation down. You also made a more provocative piece called Hiding in the Beauty? Yeah. Why you smirk like that? Because I love the female body. Yeah. He said that he said. Yeah, he had some some images. Yeah, I love it. Like when I first started painting with oils, all I was doing was like flesh tones. You know what I'm saying? Because I just wanted to blend because he when I was a kid, my father, some of his pieces, he would he would always use like pastel chalk. And oftentimes I would find these drawings and it would be like almost like a real picture. Right. But it'd be a woman. And she curvy. I'm like, yo, my dad through this. So yeah, yeah. So it's like it's funny because I'll take pictures of my wife now because my wife used to model a lot, but she's in the skincare. And she's also a holistic nutritionist. But my wife is also a psychic. How about that? You can't read me though. Why not? She can read everybody except me. Why? That's just the rule. She's too close. She's too close to me to be able to see me. When you think about it in the physical, she would have to be outside of me. Right. But she's, you know, interesting. Yeah. So it's like, so sometimes like I have a piece, I've done a couple pieces where that's based upon a photograph that I took of her. And sometimes I infuse my photography into my work too. I see. So really, what it is with one of those pieces, right? I think some of it is photography. Yeah. And atomic elegance is that's that's a that's the one image of my wife. But it's like, I just love, I love I love art because I don't the rules are different in the art business versus music. In what way? In the sense that, like I know for me, like I watch a lot of visual artists get stuck, like that you can get stuck. Like once people start buying something that they like that you do, then they expect you to do that all the time. Same thing they do with music. Yep. Yep. But what I do is like, okay, that's cool. I'll feed that. But I'm still creating more stuff. Yeah. And that's how I do with music. How do you stay out of that? That stigma, though, like if people like you doing this, but you felt like from an art standpoint, like how do you I mean, I get it. We're artists. So I get the mentality, but and you might be inspired to do something else that people may not really favor. Right. Like how do you how do you I think I think you balance it. I think the balance is based upon being very gradual with your introduction of these new elements of how you want to express yourself. Okay. So I remember Gerald overt before he passed. I met him one time. I missed you. He was a good friend. He walked up to me and he said, don't let them put you in a box. And I was like, first off, like, damn, who was them? Like, what do you mean? He said, he said, look, you'll get it one day. Yeah, he said, I love singing up temple songs as much as I do ballads, but they put me in that box. Don't let them put you in the box. And I held that with me. And so that's why musically, like when I would go back when I go back and listen to my albums, all the ones I've done, I know where I was at certain points. Yes, I know when I was like, oh, yeah, this is just a compilation of various songs from different periods of time. I know when this is a focused like concept. But in the art business, you don't have the rules. It's not the same rules. I can just create whatever and then you just wait and see and then people are going to like it or not. But I think you need to like, it's a gradual introduction of new elements. Like with music, like I know that because people love nobody knows the way they do. That if I don't put a song out that that is similar to that vein, they're almost looking at you like, you know, like think about it, right? Like, I know what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. Right. Everybody. How long has everybody been waiting for? End of the road to another end of the road. And I keep telling people stop looking for it. Right. It's not going to happen. And you know what's so funny? People, I think that even as a fan of boys to men, I'll make love to you was almost there. Well, on that level of end of the road. Well, so funny that you mentioned that because that happened to be somewhat of a controversial record because the way that you articulated that is how we felt. Right. When we first heard I'll make love to you, we didn't want to get stuck in the box. The six, eight slow song, yeah, ballot thing. Yeah, as much as we like the song, yeah, and as much as we loved face. Yeah, we said, we like the song, but we just don't want it to be the first single. Right. Because we didn't want to get stuck in that box. You know, exactly. Because that and that's why we took the approach that we took again. This is when the chip was developing that I mentioned. Yes. Yes. Yes. So when those things started to happen, and I want it, I'll admit that maybe it came off possibly a little brash to some. Yeah. But the whole point was we don't want to be put in a box. So as much as we want to do this, because we love face and obviously we're going to do it, can we please not make it the first single? And it'll be in the first single anyway. And even though it was successful and we apologize to Gerald because we're like, you knew it, we didn't. It still put us in that box. Yeah. Regardless of whether we wanted to wanted that song to do well or not, it didn't matter. Yeah. We were thinking, we were forward thinking and saying, okay, once we're here, yeah, that's all that people are going to expect from us. And it's going to be harder for us. Yeah, it becomes a challenge to do something else. So if we decide, hey, we want to do, you know, folk, pop, hip hop, bebop music or whatever, people are not, you know, they're not, they don't want to ingest that. But is it such a bad thing to be in that powerful box that you were in? It's not, but as an artist, the worst thing to be is in a box. We're artists. We want to be free. You know what I'm saying? We want to be able to do whatever we want to do. So how do you balance both? If you guys are really good at these ballads and you guys are killing them, how do you venture out and still have both ends of the... Well, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, Brian, and this is one of the reasons why even after 30 years, I still do what I do. This is how my introduction to the guitar came in. It's because I wanted to do something different. I wanted to challenge myself because then people are going to take this wrong. So let me preface this disclaimer, you know, preface this next thing as a disclaimer in saying that I love the music that I do, but I was getting bored with it. I was getting bored with doing the same things and the same type of things and being predictable. Exactly. So that's where the guitar came in because it allowed me to free myself. Even if it was just in my own little bubble, again, music and instruments are cathartic, it allowed me to just kind of be whatever I wanted to be. Because first and foremost, as an artist, it's all in here. It's all in here. So you got to feel good in here creatively making sure that you checking off, you taking off all those boxes. So by freeing my mind by playing the guitar, even if it wasn't publicly shown at first, it allowed me to at least feel free. So was there a song that ever in your, I don't know, era that you wish you guys could have got that would have fueled your soul? And I got the same question for you too. I mean, you're like, damn, I wish we would have. And I know we kind of had this conversation about a record before. It was a Drew Hill record, I believe that you wish you would have got. Oh, yeah, yeah. But this is more of like on an outside, like the boundaries, so to speak, vibe, right? Yeah. Well, you know what? I'll say this, but then I'll just pass it to our guests here. But we always thought that we're not making love by Drew Hill. Oh, was a song that we wished that we did not. And it is no discredit to Drew Hill at all. Those are boys and they killed that shit. Yeah. Which is more of a reason why we wish, man, we wish we had a chance at that record. Because it was still, it was written by face. And it still had that face element, but it was still a little more. Yeah. It was grittier. It was a little more, it had a little more dirt on it. Yeah. That we wish we were able to do. Because that would have been, as you put it, that gradual introduction to a change. Yeah. And, you know, it was meant for Drew Hill, obviously. So, but how about you? You know what song that when I heard it, I was like, man, boys and man, we're gonna kill this. Have a little mercy. It was written by and produced by Jimmy and Terry. It was on a group called 4.0, which was Pebbles Group. At the same time, Jimmy and Terry did, what was the song that you guys did with them? What's it called? No, no. It was on the third album. Oh, it was a few. We did Human 2. We did O'well. We did, I think, that's why I love you. What was it? It's called Something Seasons. Oh, Four Seasons. Four Seasons. Yeah. So, it was funny when I heard Four Seasons and then this, if you get a chance, check out Have a Little Mercy by 4.0. When I heard it, I was just like, wow, it seemed like, in my opinion, I would have loved to heard y'all singing that one. Have a Little Mercy because it was just a killer song. And what it was when I heard it, I heard y'all voices. I heard me, I heard you, I heard Wanyay. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, Janme Lewis, I think we're kindred spirits in a sense where we, I think we understand each other. And the songs that we made together were custom made for us because we share the same musical DNA just for us. Like what our sensibilities are, which is why we get along so well and why we record the songs that we do because we are connected in that sense. Yeah. But he's magical. Well, let me go back to... He didn't give us the record. Which record did you wish? Yes. Like if it was a song that I wish I had. Yeah. I'm going to say Change the World. Okay. I love that record because you know it was written by Tommy Sims and what's the other guy? Tommy Sims. I forget this other guy's name. Bass Rope. But they was... No, no, Change the World was written by Tommy... I thought Bass Rope, I thought... No, no, no. It's Tommy Sims. This... Because it came out of the country, it came out of Nashville. Interesting. Yeah, that song came out of Nashville. What it was was that Eric was tapped to perform, record and perform it for the phenomenon movie. Yeah, it was on the soundtrack. Right. Yeah, it was on the soundtrack. And then Face was then brought in to do the duet with them. But that song was written... And Tommy Sims is a black country songwriter. How about that? I learned something today. I did not know that. You know what's interesting is I saw, just going around a few weeks ago, that people thought for the longest time that nobody knows was baby-facing in that record. Yeah, I know. Yeah. So you guys have seen it too? Yeah. Oh, for sure. Everybody thought... I mean, I knew it was you. So I was like, that's interesting to me. Everybody, yes, thought it was baby because you had that, the yodel. And we're both second tenor. Yes. And I was on the Face record. Yeah, and you was on the Face. And then we thought, Oh Face wrote it. Because it had very much a, when can I see you again, type vibes and that type of thing, the acoustics, you know. So how did that... Obviously you've heard this before. So how did that make you feel? Well, I didn't feel good about it, but I understood where it was coming from. Because every artist gets compared to another artist until they're not. Toni Braxton was compared to Anita Baker until she wasn't. But what it was, what's amazing is still to this day in 2025, there are people online that swear up and down that Kenny wrote and produced that song. They even swear up and down that they've seen a performance live, that he has an actual video for it. And I said, it's not true. Yeah. I remember one time... The hinting at is weird. Star 94 in Atlanta, I was pulling in because the Face, their offices was in the same building. I was pulling in and nobody knows what's playing on the radio. And then I heard the guy say, and that was the Toni Rich Project. That song was written by Babyface and Babyface is even doing the backgrounds. I went straight to that radio station and I go in there and I'm talking with the guy. I said, dude, I just heard you. He says, man, I love the record. I said, but why did you... Why did you lie? Why did you just say what you said? He said, because Babyface wrote it, didn't he? I said, no, he didn't actually. He said, I said, my brother wrote that song. It's about our father. Who passed away, you know, 1719. And I said, if you look on the credits, I did the background. Yeah, just read the credits. If you look at the production, I produced it. I played the instruments. Like, I was like, I'm just on the label. He says, well, my bad, we just assumed that that was the case because you're on the label. And I understand comparisons because when people hear a voice, if they don't hear those voices, like if you play me and Kenny's voice side by side, we don't sound the same. No, you don't. But the nuance is, and because of that time too, where face was at his height, and you hear face-ish type of things you're going to instantly think, like people swore that shy was boys' demand. Like, if I ever fall in love, because that was your... They thought it was us because we were the ones that, only ones at that time that scored a big record, La Capella. Yeah, exactly. So anybody else that... I always felt like that record obviously could have gone your way. They swore it was us. They swore it was us. We had to keep telling people that's not us. But I wasn't upset about that because I understood, you know, I came to LaFace as a writer, producer at the time when LA and Kenny had split. Man, I've only met Kenny on two occasions. I've spoke to him on the phone one time. I've been around him only twice for like a couple minutes at a time. So we never had an opportunity to... We never got that... It never happened where we were able to work together. Yeah, yeah. Well, that would be interesting because, you know, basis. Because I got mad respect for him as a songwriter and producer. I had this list of producers that I was going to meet when I got into business. I used to say this. I said, I'm going to meet these producers eye to eye. It's not going to be... Can you listen to my demo? Right. And I said it was Prince, LA and Faye's Jimmy and Terry, Dr. Dre, Teddy Riley, Quincy Jones. Yeah. Did you knock out the list? Yeah, did you? Yeah, did you? So when Perry flew me down to Atlanta, she sent me over to LA that day. And I met him that day. Perius Pebbles, if you don't mind. Yes, Perius Pebbles. And then Mercedes and... Yes, Mercedes Boy. I didn't meet Quincy. I spoke to Quincy Jones on the phone while I was in Acapulco, Mexico, hanging out with one of my best friends that lives there. Okay. So kind of a check. Yeah. I met Dre. Check. I met Teddy. Check. Me and Teddy actually worked on some guy stuff, went on the Guy 3 album. Prince met Prince, hung out with Prince. Check, check. I have not met Terry, but I did meet Jimmy once. Okay. Yeah. Because when I said, yeah, Jimmy was like, Jimmy was like, hey, Tony, hope you didn't mind what I said about you. I said, what would you say? He says, because he was being interviewed and someone asked him about me and he said that to him, I was a fusion of Prince and babyface. So he just wanted to make sure I didn't feel offended by that. I said, no, man, I understand. It's all good. Yeah. This is reference point. Yeah. That's it. That's it. That's not a bad reference. It could have been a whole lot worse. And don't get offended by meeting Terry. Terry doesn't go out. But I wanted to go back to that balance of the Genesis painting because... No, no, no. The hiding and the beauty because there was a song that was played on Instagram while you were showing that painting called Because There's You. Oh, yeah. Is that available? And if not, can I get a copy before you leave? Yeah, I send it to you because it's a spoken word joint. It's beautiful. It was on my third album. So it's out? Yeah. Okay. Because I looked it in on iTunes and I could not find it. Oh, it's probably not streaming though. Oh, I see. I see. I see. Yeah. I'm about to look at them too. Yeah. What's it called again? But I do. I work on... Because There's You. Yeah. So I have this certain track that I'll build. Man, it's just groovy stuff and I might just talk over it. Yo, I love that record. Can I get a copy before you go? Thank you. I'm like a crackhead when it comes to music. I need... Certain groove you need it. I need that hit. I need that hit. All right. Speaking of songs, man, you actually kind of touched on it earlier in our conversation. But let's get deep. All right. Top five songs you wish you wrote. Top five that I wish I wrote? This will be easy. Purple Rain. I wish I wrote that too. Oh, what's that thing joining the thing about? We talking about a fragile... Oh, what's the name of it? Fields of Gold? Yes. Yes. Hold up. These three words. Stevie Wonder. That's a nice song. That's a pretty good song. That's my third? That's your third. Yeah. It's a diddy. Hold up. What's my... Amos Lee's Whiskey on Ice. Whiskey on Ice. I've never... Amos Lee. Check out Amos Lee, bro. Amos Lee. He's a single songwriter, guitars. And he started out... He was actually... I think at some point he was a protégé of Nora Jones, but he's awesome, bro. Whiskey on Ice, Amos Lee. Yeah. The name of his album is New Moon. That album is called New Moon. New Moon. The other one... Man, I have so many... There's a bunch of songs I wish I wrote. We all do. That's the whole thing about it, right? What's that song, man? Hold on. If I was your girlfriend, I'm gonna double it up with Prince. Oh, Prince? Yeah. If I was your girlfriend. You know that guy's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, he's pretty good. He was pretty good. I got some funny... I'll tell you some funny Prince stories one day. It's hilarious. Give us one. But I think everybody has one, right? Give us one Prince story. Oh, this one is hilarious. Give us one. Because it involves my mother. Let's go. So this was after being Prince knew each other for a while. And he randomly called me like, hey, I'm gonna be... Meet me here and such, such, right? So I was just like, all right, cool. And so my mother, he says, all right, I'm gonna be in Atlanta, got four shows. You got passes for each night, right? It's all right. Cool. Nice guy. So I'm going to take somebody different each night. So I took my wife at the time one night. I took one of my good friends who was a hardcore Prince fan. And I took my mother on another night. So the night I took my mother, after the show, we're at Essos in Atlanta. There used to be this club there. If that was the after party. So we're sitting there. We're all standing in these areas. Me and my mom, Prince, Larry Graham and the whole band. And everybody's just kind of grooving. So my mom was just kind of grooving. So Prince steps over to me and says, right in my ear, your mom has more rhythm than you do. And turns off and starts dancing rouse. Because he would always throw little cracks at me. Oh yeah. No, Prince's was hilarious. I heard a lot about that. So my mother, I hear my mom say, all right now, do it again. So I said, mom, what are you doing? She told me, he grabbed my ass and I told him, if he do it again, I'm going to get him. I said, mom, chill out. Okay. Man, I turn around. My mother has Prince by his ass cheeks. He's on his toes. He's on tippy toes of those heels. And I'm like, mom, what are you doing? I'm like, what are you doing? She said, I'm not washing my hands on these jeans. Cut it out. That's crazy. Your mom got to second base with Prince. No, mom, mom, I'm on his cheeks, bro. That's hilarious. Yeah, the great story. But I heard Prince was funny like that. Like, I heard he had a really... Yeah, he would do something like that was his one time. That's funny. I met him in Memphis. He called me, he said, meet me in Memphis. I'm doing a show at the Pyramid. That's all right, cool. He said, I'm staying at the Peabody Hotel. You'll stay at the Peabody? I think so. So I said, okay. I wasn't ready for this. Because I wasn't ready for the ducks. You know about the ducks? Yes, yes, the ducks, yes. Okay, I know about the ducks. So when I get there, the ducks are marching. It's kind of like their mascot. Yeah, I'm like, what is... It's like all these ducks marching through. So I get in and Billy Sparks calls me once I get in. Yo, yo, yo, yo, man. Yo, yo, yo. So, all right, so, so, boss man gonna be calling you in a few minutes. I said, okay, cool. He said, you all good? I said, yeah, I'm all good. Hang up the phone. Phone rings. Hello? Hello? So, so, so you're here? I said, yeah. He says, so we're gonna do sound check. You want to come? I said, yeah. He says, meet me at the elevator in 15 minutes. I said, all right, cool. So here I am. Get out to the elevators, three elevators. I'm like, all right, I don't know which one is fucking elevators he's gonna be in. So let me stand in front of the middle one. Door opens. His security guard, Aaron, is standing there. With his arms folded, just staring at me. Just staring at me like he's mad at me. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like this. And then next thing you know, Prince peeks from behind him. This goes. It's 12 in the afternoon. When I get on the elevator, he is in full Prince garb, like glitter on his face and his hair. He is full outfit. I'm like, he's committed. Yes. I was like, he's on all the time. So then we get in the car and I'm playing a, I played a song that I wrote called Blue Butterfly. It was my second album. The album hadn't come out yet, but I played it for him. So he's listening. He says, I like that. I said, okay. And then I could feel this heat. Were things always a little awkward with him? No, it wasn't awkward at all. It was just all about getting to know him, right? So I could feel, I could feel he was staring at me. Right? But he was just looking, groving to the music. And then I'd go, and he goes, right? We get inside, we get inside for sound check. But this was like, this was early in the afternoon. So we get in for sound check. So we're on stage and Prince goes, Hey, play that song on piano that you were playing in the car. So I was like, okay, cool. I'm gonna sit down and start playing. And he says, you know, so later on after the show, do you know the lyrics to the Ballad of Dorothy Parker? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, oh, we're gonna do that the jam after. I was like, oh, cool. So I'm playing Blue Butterfly. And then I turned to tell him something and he disappeared. Yeah, he does that. So I'm like, okay. He does that. So I'm still playing and then the band kicks in. They start playing with me. So the whole, this whole arena is empty, right? And here I am. I'm playing Blue Butterfly with his band. Yeah. And then I hear he comes out with a strap on keyboard. He's solo and we just rocked that out for about five minutes. And then he comes over to me and he says, you know, Tony, you'd be sweet if you had a breath of it. And I was like, what? So I'm like, right, right. Like what? I'm like, okay. So this is just the onslaught of the jokes, right? So this all happens with the hours, right? So then we go back into the dressing room. The whole band is there and all his clothes, they didn't brought his clothes in and those high heels. So I was like, I'm gonna get them back. So soon as we see his boots, I said, hey, you sure you got enough of those little shoes? And that's all he said. So sorry. I thought he, I guess he found that funny. It was relentless, man. It did. The next thing he said, he pulls, he brings out a boombox and he was playing when he, this was around the town. He did the crystal ball CD and he pressed play. He says, watch this. He presses play. The music is going. And next thing you know, I'm like this. I'm like, and there's a girl standing right here. You know, they're like, I'm like, standing right here in a silver shimmery dress and her ass shaking to the beat. That's what he's telling me to watch. I couldn't figure out where the girl came from. Russ, I'm like, What the, like, Just came out of nowhere. Man, it was so funny because that girl's one of my best friends to this day still. Shimmery booty. She was one of the dancers of the performance, but she was just sitting there and I'm looking and then as I'm standing at her ass shaking, then he comes back and says, keep your eyes on the road. Keep your eyes on the road. But when I turn to say something to him, he's gone. I'm telling you, he's Batman. Yes. No, he's like that dude from Mr. Deeds. Oh yeah, right, right. No, like the boy from Willie Wong. You're right, right. Right, right. Just so, ah! Yo. Yeah, he was entertaining, man. He was just all, he was all about the fun. And it's like, and it's funny because I remember after hanging with him, I remember I walked away with so much knowledge because during that visit, he had said to me, he said, well, you should ax LA. If you can just get off the label for one record. I said, why? He said, so we can do a record together. He says, you're right. I'm right. He refuses to work with people. He said, let's do it. Yeah. I said, yo man, I said, he's not going to go for that. He says, why? He said, no. I said, because do you not recall that you just sent him a fax not too long ago that said free TLC? Like, I don't know if he's going to go for it. Yeah. He faxed LA free TLC. He faxed it. The last time I spoke to him. Faxed LA. Yeah. That said free TLC. Free TLC. The last time I spoke to Prince on the phone was in 99. No, it was 98. No, no, no. It was 99. And he said, hey, I just got off the phone with Tony Braxton. He said, she's not free. And then he said, I only talk to artists that are free. Yep. So call me when you're free. Yep. He said the same thing to Wanyet. He, because we, Call me when you're free. Yes. We were trying to work with Prince. He got Wanyet's phone. He called Wanyet. And he asked him specifically, are you signed to a label? Yeah. And Wanyet said, yeah, then we're signed to, I think it was Arrest at the time. I think LA was president. Yeah. He said, well, I don't work with artists that are signed to labels when you're off a label. Call me and hung up. That's it. He was, he was G with that. Like he was, he was dead ass with that. You got to respect it. Tony, what's your favorite restaurant? My favorite restaurant? Give me one. My favorite restaurant here would be Crossroads. Crossroads? What kind of food is it? That in Hollywood? Is that the one on Sunset? Yeah, I know. Melrose. Yeah, it's a vegan spot. Okay, Crossroads. It's all vegan, but it's like, it's like, it's like high end vegan food. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you're in Crossroads, you're having yourself some high end vegan food. And you glance at the entryway and in walks a younger version of yourself. He's been looking for you. He's been trying to glean some wisdom and understanding on what his life is to be in the future. Right. So he sits down, grabs some of your vegan fries. What is a vegan fry? I don't know. I just know that there, there exists. Okay. And, and I mean, yeah. And he's waiting for you to tell him what he needs to know. What would the older Antonio say to younger Antonio? A lot. But the first and foremost, I would say, love, love is deeply as you can, as much as you can, and as much of whatever you can, because that sensation, like the feeling of love, the reality of love, the action of love, defines so many things for me. And it's always carried me like my love for creativity, my love for being healthy, my love for laughter. So much of that. Because I know that oftentimes that's, that can be a scary thing when you're young is to actually love. And even down to the point where I love music so much that the music business has never been successful at killing that for me. I still enjoy creating music. The success of creating music for me is not putting the record out and the record selling. It's finishing the fucking record, just like finishing a painting. And when I think of like, sometimes people say, like, oh, you want your legacy to be. And when I hear people talk about that, and I'm like, if I focus on what I want my legacy to be, then I'm obviously not present in the moment. If I'm thinking about what I want people to remember me by, think of me as. And it's funny because I'm somewhat talking to younger versions of myself when I'm talking with my kids. Because they are learning me. You know, they're learning the other side of me, rather, because my kids, yeah, to the public is like, oh, that's Tony Rich Project. This is that. But to them, I'm just that. I'm just that guy that's walking around telling them what to do and hugging on them and tickling them and things like that. But when I, when I think of all the lessons I've learned at this point, things, it's not like I made a lot of like crazy decisions, but it's just certain things that I just, I made an assumption about. And that was that everybody that's nice to you is your friend. That's not true. I thought it was not everybody that helps you do something. Wanted to. Sometimes it's beyond their control. Like, like when you think like, like when I was 15, Sean, I was in high school and I told my band teacher, he says, what are you going to do when you, you go into college? I said, well, I was, but I changed my mind. He says, I have a different plan. He said, what's that? I said, I'm going to the music business. And I said that in the same amount of time that it'll take my classmates here to graduate college and get the jobs they study for, I will be a professional in music business. I told him that in 1988. So I graduated high school in 89. March of 93. I was signed to LaFace. I was a songwriter, producer. My classmates hadn't even graduated college yet. So I believed in that so much. And it was like, so I tell my kids that when I said, look, I just want you to be happy and understand what that means. It's not connected to a situation, but it's more so, I guess, more so let's say joyous, have that joy and you could tap into that happiness whenever you want. But that's what I would tell my younger self is, and even down to like, man, like celebrity and the things that get put around us. Like I remember when I first started following you, I was watching you play guitar. Oh, I knew exactly where you were, bro. I could see it. I could see it. And I'm like, that's Sean, right? Whereas when you see Sean with boys to men, that's, that's a different aspect. But this is Sean exploring, expanding. And that's the thing that I've always done. And I tell my kids that, like I'll tell them, just be courageous, be creatively courageous in your life on all aspects. Like be creative on how you love what you do for a living, the kind of friends you have, but also more important, much more important than that is to have such a phenomenal relationship with yourself, man. Because I don't care how much music or art I work on. My most favorite project is myself. I just like to be better at everything that I'm doing. That's it. Better communication, better at eating, exercise, better at shutting the fuck up sometimes. Because sometimes I'm in my head. I'm telling myself, shut the fuck up. Yes. I want to listen. I want to listen more. Yes. I like to listen more. Where are we? We just tell some people need to learn when to shut the fuck up. Some people just need to learn when to keep quiet. Yes. I tell myself that all the time. I'm always saying that. And my wife would be like, why? I say it because I say sometimes I don't need to say anything. Yeah. Sometimes I just don't want to say nothing. Yeah. That's it. It's just not necessary sometimes. It's just not, man. It's like, I just sometimes, you ever feel like this? That the wiser you become, the older you get, that you feel lighter. Because it's almost like the concept of thinking, it's almost like you're starting to do that thing that happens with the iPhones, right? Where the software updates the hardware, right? Because if you're in an ever expanding human being, your consciousness at some point is going to surpass being weighed down by your body. Yes. It's the spirit that quickens it. The fresh profit of nothing. Yeah. So your spirit starts to illuminate and then you start to feel less trapped in your body. More so as you maintain a connection because you understand that it's like a satellite. You start to get it like, okay, spirit is here, the body is there. Yes. And I'm just f**king around in my avatar. Yes. Yes. But yeah, I could go down that rabbit hole. My youngest son's name is Nine. And I explained to him why I named him that. And he's 14 now. But he has said to me the other day, he said, someone asked me, why you named me that? And I said, would you tell him? And then he just spit off exactly what I told him when he was a little boy. Yes. Because at that time I was working on an album and I was going to call it Nine. So I was studying the number nine in numerology and different religions and cultures. And a friend of mine called me. He's like, yo, do you think of a name for the baby yet? And I said, Nine. And he goes, yo, I like that. Yes. So then I told his mom and she liked it. I told my brother and stay like this. So I was like, all right, cool. It's there. There it is. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful. And he is a Nine. Yeah. One time he called me when he's three years old, he called me a motherf**ker, Sean. And the way, the way, yeah, the way he did it though was this. I have mad respect for this. His delivery was on point. Okay. And his timing was perfect. Okay. It's just that he was three years old. So it was very inappropriate. I picked him up from school like daycare and it was Valentine's Day. And then he had like two bags of candy. So I'm in the front seat. He's in the back in his car seat. And I grabbed one of the bags. I left one of them and I'm on the phone. A friend of mine, I'm talking loud enough where they can hear me, but not loud enough where he can hear me. So I said, yeah, they didn't gave him two bags of motherf**king candy. And then I hear him say, daddy, you're not supposed to use potty words. So I said, nine, I am a GA man. So you see, he and already got me to change it. Instead of, right. Yeah. I said, I'm a, I'm instead of growing up, I said, I'm a GA man. I said, you don't tell me how to talk. And then there was a pause. I said, he says, I'm not no GA man. I'm a nine. But the way he said that, he said, I'm a nine. And then there was a pause. And then I heard motherf**ker. Well done. Well executed. You are nine. Yo. And after that, we pull over, I get him out of the car and he's like, I'm getting him out of his seat. He looks up at me and it was three ways he would, he would say, he would address me. It was dad, daddy or dad. Okay. Dad, he's a big boy. Yeah. Daddy, he's being a baby. Dad, I'm about to pull some s**t on you. So he goes, he looks up at me and he says, dad, I say, yes. I'm sorry for calling you that. I said, I knew he called me a motherf**ker. So, so I look, I get the opportunity to talk to younger versions of myself every day with dealing with my kids. It's three of them are grown and then I got my youngest still in the house with me. But it's like, I think it's one of the greatest contributions that I've made to this planet is to actually have kids. Yeah. Everything else is, you know, I mean, look, all of it will fade in a hundred years from now. None of us will be here, be a whole new chessboard. Yeah. But while we're here, let's just do our best. Yeah, no doubt. You know what I'm saying? Like I just, I love that. I love to experience love in all things. Yeah. And I love to reflect on where I've been and what I'm doing and who I am. And on that note, folks, ladies and gentlemen, can you please give it up one more time? Mr. Tony Rich.